Author Topic: Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers  (Read 10416 times)

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Offline NWR_pap64

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Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers
« on: January 06, 2012, 02:48:50 AM »

The reason as to why remains unclear.

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/28875

Nintendo has asked Icon Games to take down their WiiWare sales numbers, Icon's head of development Richard Hill-Whittall noted in an editorial for Gamasutra.

Previously, we reported that Icon Games had released their sales numbers, which included numbers for their WiiWare efforts. Since then, Nintendo demanded Icon Games erase those numbers from publication.

No reasons as to their reasoning were given, but Nintendo does not seem to allow the publishing of sales numbers even by the games' own publishers. The numbers had shown that sales of their WiiWare games were considerably smaller than those of other games on other systems (which include PlayStation Network). Hill-Whittall noted that while Nintendo is not the only party with this policy, they seem to be "by far the most draconian in enforcing it." He then explained why he thinks such a policy is harmful, particularly to indie studios.

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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2012, 03:17:20 AM »
I implore everyone to read the full editorial on Gamasutra as he explains something not a lot of people realize.

A lot of fans are saying that the third party developers are blaming Nintendo for software that would have never inspired sales due to poor quality. While there is a truth in that, Hill makes a good point. Before there can be ANY kind of game, there needs to be a solid platform to work with. Nintendo is the one that should provide it. First, they promised that they would create a service that would allow Indie Developers to shine exclusively through their system.

Here's when problems started. Many developers got their development kits very late. Then, WiiWare debuted nearly two years after the system was released. Following that, many developers encountered hurdles, such as a small memory size and other restrains that developers had to work with if they wanted to release something on WiiWare. Finally there's the infamous storage problem. Just where are gamers going to save all those games? The solution came a year AFTER WiiWare debuted, which forced developers to try and create games small enough to be featured on the service.

Add to that VERY limited advertisement on Nintendo's own channel (a week at most), and an extremely late demo option and there's a reason many developers crap on WiiWare. Even those that have produced great content for WiiWare have an issue with how it is being handled.

So really, even when high profile games get ignored due to the poor quality of the service what chances do smaller developers with even less expertise have? Even if they have the experience to produce triple a content they are likely to choose another platformer that has a higher chance of generating revenue for them and gives them more exposure. Of course that's not to say that EVERY platform other than WiiWare is better and there is still the chance of them being ignored, but it's like Hill says: before they can work on something developers must know if the platform of choice is worth working on, because it takes a lot of money and man hours to create a game, even the crappy ones, and it stinks to have all that work go down the drain because part of the problem was that the platform failed to give it the exposure is needed.
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Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2012, 03:28:28 AM »
I'm honestly surprised these guys bothered to comply with Nintendo's demand to remove the WiiWare sales data. Given that their sales have been rather poor on that platform and that they have a number of vocal complaints about the WiiWare platform, they probably have no intention of publishing further games on it. So why cave in to Nintendo's bizarre demands? Imagine if Walmart, Amazon, etc. told Nintendo they couldn't release any sales figures on games sold at those stores. Except they wouldn't, because real stores have no right to control that information, and if they tried, Nintendo would probably pull distribution from those stores. WiiWare developers should do the same.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2012, 06:42:57 AM »
Nintendo probably wants to censor it because it is embarrassing. Imagine you throw a party, and then your neighbor throws on at the same time. Let's say 5 people come to your party, but 20 people go to the neighbor's. Would you then want someone going around telling everyone how much your party sucked?
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Offline StrawHousePig

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Re: Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2012, 09:26:11 AM »
Who Games? No matter how much BS Nintendo's number policies may seem to us, all I hear are sour grapes about something these guys must have agreed not to do beforehand.

Something I never hear in all this "exposure" and "advertising" talk is that game pages should have better media (full rez screenshots and *gameplay video*) available to the user. Especially in lieu of actual demoes / time limited free licenses. To me, as a user, this is the biggest short coming of it. Sure you can find videos on the Nintendo Channel, but that's not where anyone goes to look for gameplay video even when you know that's where they may be. It's an unnecessary middle step that, given the eShop, I expect will be fixed in the Wii U.

At any rate, looking at all the numbers, the WiiWare numbers were not all that bad when compared to the others. Not sure how much it costs on WiiWare, but "Family Games Fun" (maybe not the same game) costs $0.00 in iTunes. I kinda don't blame Nintendo for not liking hard sales data mixed in with inflated freebie data. Would you rather have 14,000 sales or 19,000 giveaways?
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Offline ejamer

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Re: Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2012, 10:18:38 AM »
Although the Gamasutra article is worth reading, I think that it should be taken with a grain of salt.

  • The initial numbers posted were missing some important details about where and how "freebies" were delivered, giving making the list of numbers considerably less value to anyone not privy to that information. This is partially clarified in the article comments, although not enough to make meaningful comparisons between platforms.
  • The second editorial suggests that Mr Hill-Whittall didn't know that WiiWare sales numbers were restricted by Nintendo. If true, he either didn't read, didn't understand, or simply chose to ignore the terms of the contract with Nintendo for some reason. This caveat was commonly known among fans and journalists, so it seems odd that the head of development wouldn't be aware of the NDA.
  • The second editorial also makes a few odd or misleading statements. In particular, Access to Finance: he really doesn't see a difference between sharing information at a bank to secure future funding and posting them on a publicly-visible blog?
  • Previous comments from Icon Games haven't always been quick to admit that things could have been handled better from their end - both surrounding promotion, development, or publication. Obviously this type of personal investment in a product is natural and not necessarily a bad thing. However, it does introduce a bias into their viewpoint that shouldn't be ignored - especially when money is involved (and lost).
That doesn't mean the editorial is without merit, because it certainly does discuss one of several very real problems with how WiiWare was handled as a platform by Nintendo and raises some important questions that indie developers should consider before signing on. (Of course, those same indie developers should probably consider reading their contracts before signing to be clearly aware of details like minimum sales figures before getting paid and any restriction on releasing information to the public.)


As always, consider the source and don't just accept what is said at face value.




(Edited to fix a couple of grammatical mistakes. There are probably plenty remaining.)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 12:18:30 PM by ejamer »
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Offline ejamer

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Re: Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2012, 10:30:41 AM »
Nintendo probably wants to censor it because it is embarrassing. Imagine you throw a party, and then your neighbor throws on at the same time. Let's say 5 people come to your party, but 20 people go to the neighbor's. Would you then want someone going around telling everyone how much your party sucked?


But if the other party had free beer and hot tubs then it wouldn't be that surprising when everyone when went there instead, would it?


There are a lot of lessons to be learned here. Hopefully Nintendo and Icon Games both come away with the right ones... although I suspect neither side has.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 12:19:11 PM by ejamer »
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Offline ejamer

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Re: Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2012, 10:38:37 AM »
...
At any rate, looking at all the numbers, the WiiWare numbers were not all that bad when compared to the others. ...


Agree, except for this fact:


"Multiple sources have indicated to Gamasutra that there is a minimum amount of sales, on a per-territory basis, that WiiWare developers must reach in order to recoup any money at all for their games.
It is believed that this sales number is set in the mid-four figure range for North America, and lower four figures for individual European territories.

Until a WiiWare title sells over that number, nothing will be paid out -- although when the threshold is made, the full royalty amount is given to the developer, taking into account the amount of copies sold at that figure."

(Quote taken from a 2009 Gamasutra article.)


So it sounds like Soccer Bashi didn't earn anything, while the other WiiWare titles by Icon Games should have earned in at least some regions. Other platforms allow payments to come in sooner, without the same (any?) thresholds in place before developers start to see returns for their effort. Of course this was spelled out in detail in the initial contract... but that doesn't mean it's easy to swallow not getting paid for your work.
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Offline Deguello

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Re: Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2012, 11:34:47 AM »
I believe Apple requires that you sell at least $500 worth of downloads before you get anything.  Funny enough in the comments of some of these articles from the guy from the games shows that's how much money they've from their iPhone games in total, which means these guys are a hard luck case, but not undeservingly so.

Quote
Imagine if Walmart, Amazon, etc. told Nintendo they couldn't release any sales figures on games sold at those stores.

Doesn't Walmart refuse to give out sales data to NPD?  That's controlling information that isn't theirs to control.  I'm not saying Nintendo's right, but it isn't entirely out of the ordinary.

Quote
I'm honestly surprised these guys bothered to comply with Nintendo's demand to remove the WiiWare sales data.

I'm not.  If it's part of their contract that they don't reveal sales numbers, then they'd get sued into oblivion if they persisted.

I still see this as sour grapes that their game didn't sell as well as World of Goo or much better received games.  They knew the terms of the contract when they signed it, and if they didn't read it then they have no one but themselves to blame.  This appeal to the public shows why it matters who brings up issues like this, because, despite the "long man-hours" it took to create uh... Soccer Bash, quality still counts.  The fact that, say... Cave Story was created by one person and ported to Wiiware by a very small team shows that you can succeed with quality.  I believe this game got a lot of exposure as well.

Still it's pretty much a moot point now, as the Wii is winding down.  Already the 3DS's eShop has no sales threshold.  How about Icon Games go over there?
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Offline ejamer

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Re: Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2012, 12:14:44 PM »
...

Quote
Imagine if Walmart, Amazon, etc. told Nintendo they couldn't release any sales figures on games sold at those stores.

Doesn't Walmart refuse to give out sales data to NPD?  That's controlling information that isn't theirs to control.  I'm not saying Nintendo's right, but it isn't entirely out of the ordinary.


...

Still it's pretty much a moot point now, as the Wii is winding down.  Already the 3DS's eShop has no sales threshold.  How about Icon Games go over there?


I vaguely recall hearing that Walmart now gives numbers to NPD, but have nothing to verify that with. For a long time they didn't, and some other non-traditional game retailers apparently weren't included in NPD reports either. The statistical models used probably compensated for that... but I'm not a statistician. (edit: Nor a writer, judging by the number of grammatical errors I've had to fix when re-reading my posts... Geez.)

As for problems with WiiWare as a platform, it's easy to say they are a moot point when we aren't the ones who lost money on it. (And note that some very good games also failed to sell well on the platform - it's not just bad games that received low sales figures.) It's also not a moot point if bad experiences or publicity surrounding WiiWare affects Nintendo's current and future efforts to establish a digital platform.

That said, 3DS seems to have made at least some strides forward. Demos, promotional screenshots/details/videos, and support for promo codes all help. The platform also seems to be getting more attention from Nintendo themselves, which can't hurt even if it does mean there is more competition for digital sales. The big question is whether the changes made will be enough to entice developers to support the platform - and without direct pricing control or increased marketing support (for the eShop platform, not necessarily the games within) from Nintendo it's difficult to say what will happen.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 12:23:27 PM by ejamer »
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2012, 12:21:25 PM »
What business is it of Nintendo's if an independent third party company publicly reveals their sales info?  Nintendo, it ain't your company and it ain't your games so go **** yourself.

Nintendo has had serious third party problems since, well, they no longer had enough clout that devs felt they had no choice but to support them.  Everything you hear from developers suggests that Nintendo ALWAYS has the least accomodating third party policies of the big three.  Does anyone honestly think the Wii U is really going to be much of an improvement?  What is Nintendo doing differently aside from the fact that their hardware won't be a gen behind again (but even THAT is questionable if Sony and MS leapfrog them)?  It still seems like the same unaccomodating assholes that treat third party support as an afterthought at best and competition at worst.  The best we can hope for?  Gamecube level third party support.  That's the last time Nintendo was on a level playing field in terms of hardware and they still had pretty lousy third party support.  Why would anyone want to work with these guys?  I find them frustrating to deal with and that's as a CUSTOMER.

I don't even give a **** about Icon Games.  But if I owned a videogame company and Nintendo pulled this **** with me I'd drop them in a heartbeat unless I felt I HAD to support the Wii to stay in business.  Their "demand" is just completely unreasonable and ridiculous.  That is the key point.  No one puts up with tedious bullshit unless they HAVE to.  Third parties don't need Nintendo so they never have the slightest reservation about telling them to **** off.  That's the N64 in a nutshell.  Nintendo pulls some unreasonable ****, third parties realize they don't NEED to support Nintendo and en masse tell them to go **** themselves.  And Nintendo has NEVER EVER in the 15 years since demonstrated any reaction to this.  Did they just think everyone was being mean to them?  "Everyone else is an unreasonable prick except me."

Offline rlse9

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Re: Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2012, 12:22:42 PM »
1.  Doesn't Nintendo realize it's the internet, and once the information is out there it isn't going away?  And by asking them to take it down they're just going to bring more attention to the information and make things worse?

2.  Wal-Mart isn't included in NPD but they also don't prohibit companies from releasing their own sales figures which include sales made at Wal-Mart.

3.  He makes a good point about sales data being non-existent making things very hard for companies.  How can a company make business decisions without knowing how games on the service are doing?  You're going in basically blind.

Nintendo just fails at making things easy for 3rd party developers no matter what they do.

Offline Deguello

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Re: Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2012, 12:31:46 PM »
Quote
3.  He makes a good point about sales data being non-existent making things very hard for companies.  How can a company make business decisions without knowing how games on the service are doing?  You're going in basically blind.

I'm sure Icon Games knows how well their games are selling.  It's the making public of the data that probably violates their contract.

Quote
Ian's history lesson.

Oh Ian, you haven't changed at all while I was gone.  But just so you know it would be Nintendo's business if it explicitly states in their contract that they can't reveal sales data.  Which is why we don't see too many sales numbers from WiiWare games, even the successful ones.
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Offline NintendoFanboy

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Re: Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2012, 12:33:35 PM »
i'm normally on Nintendos side on these things, but not on this one.
Hopefully Nintendo asked Nice, for them to remove the #'s , but still.
The developer would comply so nintendo doesnt take them to court, which is
costly, and its the Internet, once its out there, its out there, you cant hide
 it now Nintendo.  Nintendo still don't understand the internet age.
We have a press dept. for U.S. Europe, and Japan, all seperate?
Nintendo is really suprised when people in other countries, tune into a Japan press confrence?
Really?! its a global world, the internet is everywhere and forever.
Nintendo Needs to Not hide, but face the facts, and Tell everyone, that its hard lessons learned
and they have been working hard to make WiiU's E shop equal to or better then the compitition.
They can use it, or hide a evade. Be the New Nintendo, and hit this head on. (so sad it wont happen)

Offline ejamer

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Re: Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2012, 12:58:21 PM »
...Everything you hear from developers suggests that Nintendo ALWAYS has the least accomodating third party policies of the big three. ...

This link offers numbers that don't agree with your generalization - at least not for indie developers working on digital platforms, which is what this topic is about:
http://2dboy.com/2011/10/03/xbla/
The link also has some great commentary on how to make a digital platform more successful. It's primarily targeting XBLA, but applies to other platforms too.

According to the survey results posted there, XBLA comes off as squarely the worst digital platform to develop for. Numbers for Nintendo and Sony are a bit odd - Sony has a huge middle-of-the-road numbers while Nintendo has slightly higher numbers on both extreme ends. (To be clear: Sony is the clear winner among the "big three", but still looks bad when compared to Apple or Valve. Having 38% of indie developers call them difficult to work with isn't exactly a compliment.)

It's worth noting that developers who are most vocal and don't mind breaking NDA and contract details might be just the loudest voices instead of being accurate representatives of the greater whole. On the other hand, they might be both.


As for the "history lesson"...

Generally speaking, Nintendo has clearly failed third parties in the past. There seem to have been some improvements in recent years, and (at least superficially) there have been some attempts to reach out and make strategic partnerships with key third party developers. But Nintendo is clearly and unequivocally in business for themselves first and foremost. This isn't a secret and anyone who chooses to develop for a Nintendo platform is hopefully informed enough to realize that before signing any contracts.

So why do developers work with them? The exact same reason that they work with all other closed platforms: money. Game development is a business, even for indies, and developing for Nintendo platforms can be profitable. If people are developing out of love then they should be developing for PC and releasing their efforts for free.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 01:05:10 PM by ejamer »
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Offline Chocobo_Rider

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Re: Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2012, 01:11:50 PM »

Anyone who agreed to develop for WiiWare knew what they were getting in to and thought it made financial sense. Nintendo's techniques aren't entirely unique and it's not like they yelled "surprise!! file size limit!" or anything once games were done.

So Icon Games made some crap, they didn't sucker enough people, and now they're blaming someone else.
Let's show Icon Games the door and hopefully someone trying to deliver a good product can enter through it.



Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2012, 01:24:10 PM »
Oh Ian, you haven't changed at all while I was gone.  But just so you know it would be Nintendo's business if it explicitly states in their contract that they can't reveal sales data.  Which is why we don't see too many sales numbers from WiiWare games, even the successful ones.

The question is why is that even in the contract.  Why does Nintendo care?  What business is it of their's that these companies reveal their WiiWare sales?  There is no reason to be controlling about this.
 
Quote
So why do developers work with them? The exact same reason that they work with all other closed platforms: money. Game development is a business, even for indies, and developing for Nintendo platforms can be profitable. If people are developing out of love then they should be developing for PC and releasing their efforts for free.

Of course it's about money.  But that's the point.  Nintendo doesn't have enough clout that developers HAVE to support them to make a buck.  So they never get decent third party support because there are two other companies out there with videogames systems and third parties can make a living supporting only them if Nintendo is too inflexible.  Nintendo acts like this is the NES days where they can do whatever they want because no company would dare ignore the NES and hope to stay in business.  But they don't have that kind of clout.  No one NEEDS them so no one puts up with them.  They were the market leader this gen and everybody stayed away in droves.  Think about that.  Atari 2600, NES, SNES, PS1, PS2 - every single market leading console in the past generations had undoubtedly the strongest third party support and yet the Wii had the WORST.  It's the only market leader in videogame history to have lousy third party support.
 
Nintendo has NOTHING that would allow them to act like King ****.  No one needs to put up with them so they don't.  Why don't they ever learn from this?  They don't even have to be that nice.  They just need to be better than the other guys who aren't exactly saints themselves.

Offline Deguello

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Re: Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2012, 01:26:32 PM »
Quote
But Nintendo is clearly and unequivocally in business for themselves first and foremost.

Your post is nice, but I have a quibble with this as this is true of every single platform holder.  I have yet to hear a company's stated goal being otherwise.

Also, this thread being on a Nintendo-focused forum tends to create the idea that Nintendo's problems are the only problems that exist.  Other digital platforms have their problems too.  Take Apple, for instance, and their almost usurious 30% royalty rate, even for in-program purchases (this led to trouble with Walmart and Amazon, whom Apple wanted 30% of their retail sales through the app as well).   And that's only if your game isn't free, in which case Apple wants 40% of your game's ad revenue.  I believe this royalty rate is the highest.  But they're willing to forgo these problems because Apple has a lot of phones out there. 

Similarly with Wii, there are just so many out there that if you get a hit you make a lot, and that's worth the risk of not meeting the threshold and not getting your money (which by the way, has less royalties attached, so the dev gets more of their money.)

EDIT:
Quote
They were the market leader this gen and everybody stayed away in droves.  Think about that.  Atari 2600, NES, SNES, PS1, PS2 - every single market leading console in the past generations had undoubtedly the strongest third party support and yet the Wii had the WORST.  It's the only market leader in videogame history to have lousy third party support.

I think this says more about third parties this Generation than it does about Nintendo.  Since you lump third parties all together in a big lump, it might interest you to know that this generation saw a lot of blood on the streets as long time and big time publishers bled money and shrunk rapidly.  Considering that they avoided Nintendo's platform, do you think maybe the two events are related? 
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 01:34:45 PM by Deguello »
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2012, 01:30:55 PM »
2.  Wal-Mart isn't included in NPD but they also don't prohibit companies from releasing their own sales figures which include sales made at Wal-Mart.

Not to take away from the point you were making, but I think Walmart gives #'s to NPD now.

Offline Traveller

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Re: Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2012, 04:14:46 PM »
Maybe they should make 3DS software then, as Nintendo apparently does not have thresholds for the handheld services.
 
Also why get them to pull the data now? Its been ages..
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2012, 04:24:50 PM »
That's the thing: for all the **** Nintendo deservedly gets for the way they handled the Wii downloads, they really do seem to have learned a lot from it, and dramatically improved things for the 3DS.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2012, 11:05:31 PM »
A few things:

- Is Nintendo's gag order on WiiWare sales info anti-3rd party and draconian?  Yes.  I especially find it odd here because IIRC the World of Goo developers released their WiiWare sales info (at least a ballpark number) several years ago, and I don't remember Nintendo complaining about it then.  Might they be allowing a flow of information when the numbers are good and benefit their PR, and cutting off the flow when it doesn't?  It certainly seems so, but it's hardly surprising or unusual.

- Is Nintendo's insistence that 3rd parties sell a certain amount of software before they can even be "given" the money they're owed anti-3rd party?  In my opinion it is.

- Has WiiWare generally failed to be the Shining City on a Hill for small developers that Nintendo promised because of these policies; the lack of a good way for small developers to advertise their games; the file size limit; and the long delay in implementing demos and a storage solution?  It certainly seems that way.

- Is Nintendo entirely within their right to demand Icon Games to cease distributing sales data, assuming that was part of their original contract?  Yes.  As much as it makes Nintendo look like jerks, if Icon Games agreed to develop these games under Nintendo's conditions, it's only professional to live up to your agreements.

- Should Icon Games ever develop for a Nintendo platform ever again?  Well, I wouldn't.  Then again, if I were a 3rd party developer in general, I don't know why I'd touch a Nintendo digital platform unless there were serious reforms to make it more 3rd party-friendly (and if Insanolord is accurate, they're getting there).

- Would I be complaining on the internet about not seeing any money after I dared to put shovelware like Soccer Bash on the service?  No.  As draconian and inane as Nintendo's WiiWare restrictions are, developers large and small have seen success on the service.  It might be extremely difficult to get the word out, but I don't think I've ever heard of a quality game on WiiWare that sold poorly enough that we hear about it from the developer.  Unfortunately, Wii retail software has not been so fortunate.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 11:07:30 PM by broodwars »
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2012, 11:11:09 PM »
To be fair, I'm pretty sure Microsoft doesn't like releasing hard numbers on XBLA sales either, and I don't think we get figures for Steam, or Amazon for that matter.

EDIT: Not really defending the practice, merely pointing out that it's a fairly common thing for companies in their position to do.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 11:13:42 PM by NWR_insanolord »
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2012, 11:29:18 PM »
- Is Nintendo's insistence that 3rd parties sell a certain amount of software before they can even be "given" the money they're owed anti-3rd party?  In my opinion it is.

While I'm rarely the first to come out in defense of Nintendo's digital distribution business plans, this one isn't all that crazy.  In fact, it's actually somewhat better (based on my limited understanding of it all).

Let's say you're developing a game to be released on disc - when you send the data to Nintendo (or whomever) to be published, you have to front - at least - part of the costs (although, sometimes, if the publisher knows it's going to be a hit, they might front all the costs) for pressing the discs, packaging, etc.

Then, as the game sales, you don't get 100% of the sale price.  The publisher (and distributors and retail stores) all take their cut - then, you get your part of the sale.

Let's say you make a $50 game... for every copy that sales, you get $10.  Now, you had to pay $20,000 of the total publishing costs to get your game published.  *bamn*, you have to sell 2,000 copies of your game before you make a profit. (Made up all those numbers off the top of my head).

My understanding of the WiiWare service is something similar - Nintendo "publishes" the game (server space, bandwidth, some very minor promotion - and the man power to do it all) - except that they front 100% of the costs.  I don't believe (although I could be wrong) that Nintendo charges anything for this.  So, before the developer gets any money from Nintendo, Nintendo wants to make back their costs (i.e.: sell the minimum number of units).

With this plan, if the developer doesn't sell the minimum number of units, they're not out a dime - but with the physical method, they're out $20k - $10 for each copy they did manage to sell.
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Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Nintendo Demands Take Down of Icon Games's Sales Numbers
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2012, 11:39:15 PM »
- Is Nintendo's gag order on WiiWare sales info anti-3rd party and draconian?  Yes.  I especially find it odd here because IIRC the World of Goo developers released their WiiWare sales info (at least a ballpark number) several years ago, and I don't remember Nintendo complaining about it then.  Might they be allowing a flow of information when the numbers are good and benefit their PR, and cutting off the flow when it doesn't?  It certainly seems so, but it's hardly surprising or unusual.

Maybe they are fine with companies using general numbers, just not precise numbers. It's like how the NPD Group is OK with a company saying something like "Game A sold 287K copies", but not "Game A sold 286,879 copies".
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