Topic: 2d vs 3d

[wandering]

Should 2d games be more prevalent in the marketplace? There are hardly any genres that can't be done in 2d - action adventure games, platformers, fpses, racers, and rpgs all existed before polygons became popular. And many people argue that 2d games are often more beautiful, and have more charm, than their 3d counterparts.

Imagine if Nintendo poured millions of dollars into, and put their best artists and designers to work on, a 2d Zelda game for the Wii. Would that game be better than Twilight Princess? Would Twilight Princess have been better if it was 2d?

If you had asked me those questions two years ago, I would have answered them all with either "no" or "what the hell is a Wii?" I grew up on the N64 - I like 3d. But recently, I've found myself thinking that most games that come out these days are either dull-looking or downright ugly. And that maybe, 2d is due for a comeback.  

[UERD]

I would like to see some good 2D games come out. It's true that there is a look and an ambience- a polish, of sorts, that is far harder to capture with 3D than with 2D. You don't have the problems with crappy cameras and blurry close-up textures inherent in 3D. But I don't know if people are ready to leave the implicit '2D is a recourse when you can't do 3D' mindset and embrace that sort of paradigm.

It's probably important to note that, starting last generation or so, a lot of the most notable 2D games went to the GBA.  

[ShyGuy]

the softcore can't handle 2D "oh noez my Hay-low is teh ugly!"

[Louieturkey]

Unfortunately, 2D no longer sells, so even the best of games unless they are on a handheld (Viewtiful Joe anyone?) get thrown into the bargain bin quickly.  So no company wants to take the risk of going backwards per se.

[Ian Sane]

A games should use whatever makes the most sense for it.  If it's a sidescroller using polygons makes no sense.

2D doesn't sell because Sony trained gamers into only accepting 3D and with most 2D games being released on portables (which are considered secondary to consoles) it has created a negative stigma.  To break that stigma is going to take "retraining".  Someone with lots of influence has to make 2D games and give them the same attention of their 3D games.

One may ask why they anyone would do this but I think having BOTH 2D and 3D would allow for more types of games to sell.  Some niche 2D focused genres like shmups may regain mainstream gamer interest.  The only reason not to I suppose is that discouraging innovation and variety makes it easier to be lazy.  If someone like EA trains the general public to only accept a couple really generic game blueprints then making games takes less effort.

[Kairon]

I wouldn't mind seeing more 2D in the world. I mean... a NSMB for the Wii, A 2D console Megaman, Wii Ware ripoffs of Blaster Master.... Yoshi's Story 2....

[MODE_RED]

3D gaming has had the tendency lean towards realism. I think the spirit of artistic flair and hand-drawn exuberence in 2D games should be brought to 3D games and the gameplay mechanics of 3D games should be brought to 2D artistic masterpieces.

Anyone remember Samurai Showdown for the Neo Geo and arcade? It's an old-school game that featured large beautifully hand-drawn warriors fighting in well detailed environments that zoom in and out when fighters moved toward and away from each other.

I would love to see a reenvisioning of games like this, made to look even better than 3D games with 2D style shading, coloring and animation while incorporating 3D gaming elements.

I don't think cell shading has taken this approach far enough, because the 2D games of the past are still superior in visual richness, although the graphics are outdated in most of them. Maybe Zelda is the closest, IMO, to taking 2D sensibilities to the next level in 3D visual presentation.

[Infernal Monkey]

I imagine we'll be seeing quite a few first party 2D games for Wii Ware when that starts up in eight years.

[UERD]

That would be nice...a new golden age of side-scrolling shooters, adventure/platformers, and old-school RPGs, with modern design sensibilities and innovative ideas but polished, stylish 2D graphics, all made by independent developers unbound to mega-million sales figures or corporate interference.

We can always dream....

[KDR_11k]

Some genres suck in 2d, others in 3d.

Arcade shooters need 2d because it's much harder to aim in 3d, resulting in autoaim. It's also much harder to create bullet hells because the player can move up and down but when a cluster of shots is approaching you it's not possible to see their exact positions in 3d space (the problem has been in Stardust already and that was all sprites!).

Fast moving games work better in 3d because you can see into the distance while you are constrained to a rectangle with 2d and Sonic can move across the screen in half a second. It should technically not be possible for 2d Sonics to be better than 3d ones if speed really is an important factor (as you can't see crap when moving fast in a 2d Sonic) but Sega sucks so bad they couldn't figure out that they should take inspiration from racing games, not Mario 64 (I hear they fixed it with Sonic Wii, though).

IMO Zelda works better in 2d because of the targetting, in 2d you can just press fire and know your shot lines up, in 3d you have to stop and aim first, you get autoaim and all that instead of just drawing your bow and firing because you know it lines up. Also the 3d Zeldas have too much "use item A, then B, then C" fighting while e.g. LttP doesn't even give you a new item in every dungeon, sometimes you just have to beat bosses up with your sword instead of spamming whatever new item you got.

RPGs can use anything because it has no effect on the gameplay anyway, they could be text based and still play the same.

Anyone remember Samurai Showdown for the Neo Geo and arcade? It's an old-school game that featured large beautifully hand-drawn warriors fighting in well detailed environments that zoom in and out when fighters moved toward and away from each other.

Nope. I do remember Samurai Shodown 5 for the PS2, though. I hear Nakoruru has quite a fanbase.

[nickmitch]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

Long live the second dimension!!

[ReverendNoahWhateley]

For all its flaws, I still think that Yoshi's Story is gorgeous.  Not only by yesterday's standards, either.

[ryancoke]

what about 2d games with 3d rendered graphics (Donkey Kong Country)?  or 3d games that play like 2d games (viewtiful joe)?

[KDR_11k]

what about 2d games with 3d rendered graphics (Donkey Kong Country)?

Fugly. Anyway, I believe we're talking about the gameplay here.

[ryancoke]

I think 2d style games are great on the DS and GBA (castlevania, Metroid, etc.).  I don't think they are as viable as full priced console games anymore. Great for the VC, PSN store and XBLA as value priced software though.  Castlevania: Symphony of the Night for like $10 is a great buy but I don't see many peeps buying it for $60us

[denjet78]

Quote
Originally posted by: ryancoke
I think 2d style games are great on the DS and GBA (castlevania, Metroid, etc.).  I don't think they are as viable as full priced console games anymore. Great for the VC, PSN store and XBLA as value priced software though.  Castlevania: Symphony of the Night for like $10 is a great buy but I don't see many peeps buying it for $60us

The thing is, a lot of old school 2D games have WAY more content, playtime and even replayability than their 3D brethren. It's sad that so many people seem to think like you do. Too many people would rather have 3D games no matter how short, easy, or shallow they may be.

This situation reminds me a lot of like how CGI films are taking over for animation. The only CGI film that I've seen so far that's even halfway passable would be Shrek and even that felt very sterile to me. The rest of the lot is just garbage. But yet people eat it up and studios continue to make them no matter how bad they are. And as for animation? Outside of anime it seems to be all but dead. Still, CGI is not the end all be all. Just by being it does not make a film better. In fact I think it's murdered the quality of animation because people are too focused on how it looks to actually realize that they're making a bad movie to begin with. The same thing has happened with 3D games.

The point is, people simply haven't realized that both 3D and CGI are abstraction tools. They're there to allow you to look at and build situations from a different perspective and yet most are using them simply to mimic reality. Bad form. Until people get over their gaga with the technology nothing is going to change. And the worst part of it all is that viable techniques and technologies are getting trampled in their wake for no good reason.

[UERD]

Quote
The point is, people simply haven't realized that both 3D and CGI are abstraction tools. They're there to allow you to look at and build situations from a different perspective and yet most are using them simply to mimic reality. Bad form. Until people get over their gaga with the technology nothing is going to change. And the worst part of it all is that viable techniques and technologies are getting trampled in their wake for no good reason.

I completely agree. Not to resurrect a debate, but one of the big things that prevents interactive media from being taken seriously as (high) 'art' (however you may define the term) is the fact that so many of the tools exist not so much to fulfill a creative vision, but as ends or goals to strive for. Ultimately, realistic 3D graphics and surround sound shouldn't exist just to make the game bigger than its competitors. They should exist because they are the best means through which the game director can express his vision, immerse his audience, and touch their emotions- better than two-dimensional realms, better than stylized graphics. Unfortunately, considering all the ****-poor games that nevertheless sport impressive 'technical' specs, it'll be a long time before people break out of the 'bigger numbers = better game' mindset.    

[denjet78]

Quote
Originally posted by: UERD
Ultimately, realistic 3D graphics and surround sound shouldn't exist just to make the game bigger than its competitors. They should exist because they are the best means through which the game director can express his vision, immerse his audience, and touch their emotions- better than two-dimensional realms, better than stylized graphics.

This is exactly why I loved Wind Waker so much. It wasn't cell shaded just because they could do it. It was cell shaded because that look best conveyed what they were trying to do with the game. They were trying to recapture the more childlike nature of the Zelda games. And it did that in spades. I liked it far more than Twilight Princess, which although technically incredibly I've still yet to finish and I doubt I ever will. It was basically Ocarina of Time on steroids and I didn't really like that game much either. Don't get me wrong, they're both incredible adventure games, head and shoulders above everything else out there. They just never felt like Zelda to me.

[KDR_11k]

Quote
Originally posted by: ryancoke
I think 2d style games are great on the DS and GBA (castlevania, Metroid, etc.).  I don't think they are as viable as full priced console games anymore. Great for the VC, PSN store and XBLA as value priced software though.  Castlevania: Symphony of the Night for like $10 is a great buy but I don't see many peeps buying it for $60us

I see that only for the mainstream oppinion, I wouldn't reject a 2d game on a console (though handhelds have the advantage of being handheld). Of course cheaper would be good, I can't even see myself paying 60€ for a 3d game very often.

Quote
Imagine if Nintendo poured millions of dollars into, and put their best artists and designers to work on, a 2d Zelda game for the Wii. Would that game be better than Twilight Princess? Would Twilight Princess have been better if it was 2d?

Hell, I'd argue Four Swords Adventures was better than TP except for the overabundance of extra lives.

[tiamat1990]

The Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap is still my favorite Zelda. So yeah 2D is just fine with me really.  

[ryancoke]

Wow!  I think you guys totally misunderstood me... I love 2d games and I would support them. Hell, Megaman 2, Zelda 2, Mario 3, Super Metroid and double dragon are all in my list of all time favorite games. What i'm saying is that the general gaming public wouldn't adopt 2d as the norm again. They look at it as a step backwards.  Unfortunatly in the previous and current gen games, sometimes the graphics seem to be more important than the gameplay.  I'm hoping that Wiiware will really produce some great 2d games from indy developers.