Author Topic: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge  (Read 25560 times)

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Offline JLowther

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Re: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2009, 11:21:54 PM »
I am somewhat interested in the game Jessie. What can you tell me that would increase that interest?

Honestly, I'm hoping the tests of WiiWare demos goes well because it's basically impossible to know if Gravitronix would click with you or not.

It's too experimental of a game of pin down where it even should fall in genre, other than "action" which is basically a blanket term for "games that require reflexes". The only game it can even remotely be compared to is "Warlords" from the Atari days (it wasn't the inspiration for the game, but it's the closest comparison people make) but even then, there's a huge difference between Grav and Warlords (four projectiles with different properties vs. one projectile, for a start).

I'd consider it if you have others to play with, even a family member you can play through campaign mode with. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful, but who this game will or won't click with is still very much a mystery to me (and everyone).

Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2009, 02:45:34 AM »
Well I appreciate the push in a direction. Warlords is a little before my time.NES was my first system. I'll check out some videos of the two.
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Offline JLowther

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Re: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2009, 04:09:52 PM »
Since I don't think I'd go into this kind of detail in the feature (I should be talking less about the game and more about the process, after all) let me explain what we were TRYING to offer the seasoned/veteran gamer...

At its highest level, the real goal of Gravitronix is to send two or more projectiles at your opponent at once and force them to take damage/be defeated and to prevent the opponent from doing the same to you. Opportunities to do this are constantly appearing and disappearing, as the arena itself is in a constant state of kinetic flux. After playing the game for long enough, I find you begin to see these opportunities coming beforehand and are more likely to be ready to take advantage of them when they appear.

Naturally, a new player will not see any of this depth, but that's okay because I've had a 40-something religious woman drop six S-bombs in a single round because the simple goal of "don't let crap into your territory" is generally enough to keep new players excited. Really, anyone can pick up this game, twist the controller and press the A button and effectively be accomplishing the goal of defending the territory. This tends to work even better on a two player team as a skilled player can be offense while a newer player is on defense.

But back to the depth: there is nothing happening on screen that is not relevant to your success/failure. If a sphere is drifting slowly, you can strike it with an explosive projectile and send it at your opponent from an unexpected angle. If a shard has just acquired its 3rd speed mark (meaning it now has a full 2X speed multiplier) that's relevant, and if one opponent is simply sitting there and holding that shard, biding his/her time until a vulnerability opens up, you'd best believe it's relevant.

Beyond that, one of the best tools skilled players have at their disposal is the repel beam. If you tap A/C right as a projectile is immediately in front of you, you'll cancel its current velocity and immediately repel it an at angle relative to your paddle at the time (think of timing sword swings to send Ganon's magic attacks back at him and you have the basic idea).

But the real beauty of the system is that, because the angle is relative, EVERY half-degree of twist on the remote or nunchuk factors into where you will send that projectile. There's also a reward system built into the beam: if you hit with it, you'll hear a specific sound effect, a speed mark will be added to the projectile (making it faster), and you will immediately be able to follow up with another repel hit. If you miss, however, you must wait for a half-second cooldown before you can fire either of your beams. This prevents button mashing and rewards players for accuracy, all the while allowing them to quickly aim projectiles for any part of the arena they wish to assault, if they're precise enough in their aim, of course.

There is a definite hardcore experience to be had in Gravitronix, but the question remains whether or not people will ever take the game that far. I took it that far, but that's only due to the hundreds of hours of playtesting I did personally (I still enjoy playing it, though I trounce any human opponents for the aforementioned reasons so no one will play against me). It might just be that the early stages of gameplay don't make the lurking depth apparent enough to keep people playing long enough to discover it. If that's the case, then this would be the biggest misstep we made with the game (though, figuring out how to entice players to become veteran players at a game is a pretty tall order for a first game from a green startup :P).
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 04:14:34 PM by JLowther »

Offline UncleBob

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Re: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2009, 09:56:40 PM »
Jessie - thanks for becoming a part of our community.
I'll pick up and try out the game just for that.

...just pray I don't regret it though... ;)
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Offline Smash_Brother

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Re: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2009, 11:24:54 PM »
Should be interesting to see what other folks think of it.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 11:30:26 PM by Smash_Brother »
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Offline JLowther

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Re: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2009, 02:29:15 PM »
Jessie - thanks for becoming a part of our community.
I'll pick up and try out the game just for that.

...just pray I don't regret it though... ;)

Thanks for the patronage. :)

I recommend trying it with at least one other player (campaign co-op is great for this). Also, press "12221" at the options menu to access all of the extra options and the level select in campaign mode if you find the training levels too easy.

Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2009, 03:17:44 PM »
I personally enjoyed the hot potatoes mode as well as the co-op mode in campaign mode. Hot Potatoes is so simple to the point of being relaxing, yet it can be hectic trying to be one guy repelling all incoming spheres.

To me, Gravitronix is a lot like Mario Party. It can be a fun multiplayer game, but the players must be into it. I know from experience that if one of two players don't care about the game they are playing the experience is ruined and quickly wish to play another. If the mixed reviews are any indication Gravitronix has that same problem. It either clicks on you or it doesn't and when it doesn't the value drops rapidly.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 03:29:14 PM by NWR_pap64 »
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2009, 07:36:00 PM »
The newest entry in our feature is up!

What We Did Right.

Another important entry if you wish to pursue game development.
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Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2009, 08:28:11 PM »
I enjoyed how you talked about how to take critisim for ones work. Nobody is perfect. There are people in all walks of life that continue to refine what they do even though they have been doing it forever. One can not improve oneself unless they can open their eyes and ears.
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Offline JLowther

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Re: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2009, 09:18:32 PM »
I would've used actual examples but I didn't think it prudent in the feature. Some of the most beloved developers in the industry have had reviewers and fans turn on them when they made a game in a genre they didn't like.

If 20 years in the industry doesn't protect you from it, nothing will.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 09:28:34 PM by JLowther »

Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2009, 11:24:40 PM »
Well I'm sure we know a few developers that have acted in the way you discribed.So it wasn't needed.

Look forward to the next part.
Maxi is dead. I killed him and took his posts and changed genders.
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I'm happy with thinking pokepal148 is just eating a stick of butter. It seems about right for him. I don't need no stinking facts.

Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2009, 02:58:09 PM »
This new entry ("What We Did Right") is my favorite so far. There are some great lessons in there for anyone with development dreams.
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Offline vudu

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Re: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2009, 04:05:11 PM »
I'm really enjoying this series.  I have some thoughts and questions that I hope Jesse is willing to address--and if not, no hard feelings.

I'll preface by saying that I have absolutely zero interest in Gravitronix, mainly because I'm an old curmudgeon and play most games alone.  A game that is so multiplayer-centric just doesn't appeal to me.  Ten years ago--when my friends and I were addicted to Smash Bros just as much as Jesse was--I would have at least given the game a chance.

First, Nintendo implemented SD card support over 6 months before Gravitronix was released and we knew something was in the pipeline even before that.  Why didn't you go back and improve the graphics once you knew cleaning the fridge wouldn't be an issue for most gamers?  Since you knew graphics were so important it seems like once the space restriction was lifted that would have been a no-brainer.  I imagine the game was too far into development to use Nintendo's pre-made toolset but switching out some of the existing graphics for higher-resolution assets doesn't seem like it would have been a lot of work.  (Keep in mind that I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about, so if I'm mistaken about the amount of work it would have been feel free to tell me to pull my head out of my ass.)

Second, why did you choose a $5 price point for the game?  Did you do any studies to see what people thought the game was worth or analysis to determine this was the best way to maximize revenue?  Or was it just shooting-from-the-hip, "X is what it cost to make the game so Y is what it should cost"?  Personally, when I see a WiiWare game that costs 500 points I'm wary--for that price I'm expecting a port of a Flash game (Defend Your Castle) or a hastily thrown together game that's targeted towards people who don't know any better (any of the 'Family' games).  I wonder whether the game would have fared better at $8 or $10--not necessarily in critical reception but in sales.

Finally, can you speak at all about the sales of Gravitronix?  I know the game's only been out a month.  I don't know how long-tailed most WiiWare games are--there are some mainstays on the weekly top 20 list, but most games seem to fall off after a few weeks--but considering the lack of advertising I'd be surprised if most titles didn't sell a good portion of their lifetime sales within the first month.

Thank you for taking the time to do these articles.  It's not often that developers are willing to give so much insight into their project, especially if it entails anything negative.
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Offline JLowther

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Re: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2009, 04:35:21 PM »
First, Nintendo implemented SD card support over 6 months before Gravitronix was released and we knew something was in the pipeline even before that.  Why didn't you go back and improve the graphics once you knew cleaning the fridge wouldn't be an issue for most gamers?  Since you knew graphics were so important it seems like once the space restriction was lifted that would have been a no-brainer.  I imagine the game was too far into development to use Nintendo's pre-made toolset but switching out some of the existing graphics for higher-resolution assets doesn't seem like it would have been a lot of work.  (Keep in mind that I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about, so if I'm mistaken about the amount of work it would have been feel free to tell me to pull my head out of my ass.)

It was basically too late (and I honestly didn't know if there would be a solution coming). All of the art assets had been made and the framework to load them had also been built. It would've been a huge, sweeping change very late in the development process, plus most of the staff did want to still keep the game as small as possible since A) it could still help as not everyone has an SD card and B) it's what we set out to do and had mentioned doing in articles already.

Also, we had started testing at that point and not a one of the playtesters EVER complained about the graphics. They complained about plenty of things (most of which we fixed) but the graphics were never one of them. That led us to believe that it wouldn't be a problem (oops).

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Second, why did you choose a $5 price point for the game?  Did you do any studies to see what people thought the game was worth or analysis to determine this was the best way to maximize revenue?  Or was it just shooting-from-the-hip, "X is what it cost to make the game so Y is what it should cost"?  Personally, when I see a WiiWare game that costs 500 points I'm wary--for that price I'm expecting a port of a Flash game (Defend Your Castle) or a hastily thrown together game that's targeted towards people who don't know any better (any of the 'Family' games).  I wonder whether the game would have fared better at $8 or $10--not necessarily in critical reception but in sales.

We chose (and announced) the price a while back because we figured it would help people on their decision to buy the game. $5 isn't much to ask and, being a brand new developer, we figured it was the best choice. I think an $8-10 pricetag would've only pushed more people away from it.

Also, a lot our good reviews came from critics who specifically mentioned the pricetag as a selling point for the game. We weren't trying to make a game that would change the world, only a game that would be a fun $5 game to entertain a group of people.

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Finally, can you speak at all about the sales of Gravitronix?  I know the game's only been out a month.  I don't know how long-tailed most WiiWare games are--there are some mainstays on the weekly top 20 list, but most games seem to fall off after a few weeks--but considering the lack of advertising I'd be surprised if most titles didn't sell a good portion of their lifetime sales within the first month.

Sales haven't exactly been stellar. We've been trying some advertising here and there but the biggest issue we face is that, on first glance, no one can understand what the hell is going on in the game. We could advertise the game to death and we probably still wouldn't get much in the way of results. Our desire to create something new and different backfired in a big way. There's really no game out there like Gravitronix, and that turned out to be its greatest failing as well. It's also hard to find any visibility in the current market. I still don't think most people even know the game exists at this point.

My guess is that, in reality, the very FIRST trailer for the game has to sell people on the concept or you're basically screwed. In our case, the first trailer was tested on a number of people time and again until they approved, then we released it and all it managed to do was confuse and anger people. I'm still not sure what went wrong, but all I know is that the trailer didn't jibe with people and that seemed to be the beginning of the end.

We'll hopefully have some more videos up on the Nintendo Channel soon and we might be getting a booth at PAX East where we can demo the game for people. The fact that critics have been so divided about the game is probably the only reason I'm still looking into promoting it. If they were unanimous in disliking the game, it'd probably just be time to call it quits (as much as it would pain me to do so), but the fact that it's roughly 50/50 with good and bad reviews makes me believe there's still a market out there. We just need to figure out how to reach it.

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Thank you for taking the time to do these articles.  It's not often that developers are willing to give so much insight into their project, especially if it entails anything negative.

If nothing else, it makes for an interesting story and a cautionary tale.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 04:58:13 PM by JLowther »

Offline vudu

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Re: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2009, 05:05:27 PM »
Thank you for your answers!  I kind of suspected what you said regarding my first question.

I'm still a little iffy on the reasoning behind the $5 price point.  There's a good chance I simply can't get into the mindset of the average consumer, but again, when I see a $5 game on WiiWare my expectations for the game drop tremendously.  I think a slightly higher price point gives the consumer the idea that a game is worth their time (and to a lesser extent their money).  As a consumer, if you tell me your product is only worth $5 I question why I'd even want to spend any time on the game.  I'd rather pay $8 or $10 for a game that I might really enjoy than $5 on something that I think is just a waste of money.  (I'm speaking hypothetically here--please don't read anything into the quality of your game from these statements.)
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Offline JLowther

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Re: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2009, 05:43:54 PM »
Thank you for your answers!  I kind of suspected what you said regarding my first question.

I'm still a little iffy on the reasoning behind the $5 price point.  There's a good chance I simply can't get into the mindset of the average consumer, but again, when I see a $5 game on WiiWare my expectations for the game drop tremendously.  I think a slightly higher price point gives the consumer the idea that a game is worth their time (and to a lesser extent their money).  As a consumer, if you tell me your product is only worth $5 I question why I'd even want to spend any time on the game.  I'd rather pay $8 or $10 for a game that I might really enjoy than $5 on something that I think is just a waste of money.  (I'm speaking hypothetically here--please don't read anything into the quality of your game from these statements.)

True, and at this point, that is the sentiment regarding $5 games.

Like I said, though, we announced the price point years ago so any change would've been going back on our word (something I'm going to try hard to avoid doing).

Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2009, 06:06:25 PM »
Vudu: Not all WiiWare titles that are budget priced are considered crap or lacking effort. The way I see it, the cheap price tag helps games that are unknown or the concept might be strange for some. For example, the Art Style series on WiiWare is priced at 600 Wii points. Carnival King (a game I recently reviewed) is priced at 700, and the game is very polished.

It all depends on how the developer views the product and how much work has gone into it. A game like Lost Winds and NyxQuest that costs 1000 Wii points is understandable because these games are very elaborate, has good graphics and a lot of time and money was spent advertising.
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2009, 06:20:09 PM »
There's really no game out there like Gravitronix
I think that this is a dangerous statement to make. Have you played the tens of thousands of games in existence? Can you really say with certainty that no other game is like Gravitronix? From the videos on YouTube it looks like an 8-player version of air hockey. Of course, I've never heard of anyone creating a more advanced version of air hockey, but it's still a game that's similar.

Though this still has me curious about the game. When reviews are split then I don't believe any single one of them, it's then up to me to decide if it's something I'd like. And I didn't know that it was just 500 points, that definitely makes it easier to try something of which I'm unsure. I just need to figure out if this is something my sister would like.

Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2009, 06:38:01 PM »
Actually one of the reviews made that statement as well. I think they mean that there aren't any other eight player titles on WiiWare, much less one that uses the Wii Remote and Nunchuck.

I don't know if this will help, Mop, but the game is a great co-op title. I played the entire campaign mode with a relative and we had a lot of fun coming up with strategies, trying to defend our shields and celebrating victories. It depends if you and your sister are into co-op games, because then you would be helping each other rather than battling.
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Offline JLowther

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Re: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2009, 06:42:39 PM »
There's really no game out there like Gravitronix
I think that this is a dangerous statement to make. Have you played the tens of thousands of games in existence? Can you really say with certainty that no other game is like Gravitronix? From the videos on YouTube it looks like an 8-player version of air hockey. Of course, I've never heard of anyone creating a more advanced version of air hockey, but it's still a game that's similar.

Though this still has me curious about the game. When reviews are split then I don't believe any single one of them, it's then up to me to decide if it's something I'd like. And I didn't know that it was just 500 points, that definitely makes it easier to try something of which I'm unsure. I just need to figure out if this is something my sister would like.

What I mean is that there's no game players can readily compare it to and say "I liked _____, therefore I'll like Gravitronix." Even air hockey isn't the best comparison because there's only one puck and no explosions (unless you count the puck flying off the table).

Offline Mop it up

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Re: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2009, 06:48:52 PM »
What I mean is that there's no game players can readily compare it to and say "I liked _____, therefore I'll like Gravitronix."
I guess the statement is just to show confidence in the product, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's just that such remarks tend to come off as arrogance to me. Of course, I don't think you meant it that way at all, as you seem like a very humble and level-headed person.

I don't know if you can answer this or not, but were any females a part of your focus testing? What did they have to say?

I don't know if this will help, Mop, but the game is a great co-op title. It depends if you and your sister are into co-op games, because then you would be helping each other rather than battling.
Yeah, my sister isn't competitive, so she doesn't usually want to play any games which don't allow for teams.

Offline vudu

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Re: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge
« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2009, 06:51:43 PM »
Vudu: Not all WiiWare titles that are budget priced are considered crap or lacking effort.

Of course this isn't the case for all games of this price point.  All $10+ games aren't highly polished endeavors either.  But a price point is a quick, easy way to assess a game's worth.  It's a rule of thumb that holds true more often than not.  As a lazy consumer with no vested interested in a new title like Gravitronix there's little reason for me to seek out information on this game.  If I were Joe consumer I'd see Gravitronix pop up somewhere (Nintendo newsletter, shop channel, whatever) wonder to myself what it is, see the low price point and assume it's shovelware.  If it were $10 I'd ask 'what is this game and why does it command that price'.  It might motivate me to look further into it.  But I see where Madaverse is coming from since it announced the price point a long time ago and didn't want to change it.
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!

Offline JLowther

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Re: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2009, 08:15:04 PM »
I guess the statement is just to show confidence in the product, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's just that such remarks tend to come off as arrogance to me. Of course, I don't think you meant it that way at all, as you seem like a very humble and level-headed person.

Oh, I didn't mean "There's nothing like it" as in "It's the best game ever". I meant it as "Good luck figuring out which genre it fits into" which is seldom a good thing. People like genres and being able to adhere to their favorite genres. The fact that there is no real genre Grav fits into other than "action" hurts it because it's hard to recommend Grav to people if you have nothing to compare it to.

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I don't know if you can answer this or not, but were any females a part of your focus testing? What did they have to say?

We did, and they seemed to like it just fine. What you'd get out of the game in the long run hinges more on gamer skill than gender. I've played the game co-op with all kinds of gamers, though. As long as you have one skilled player, you can generally hold up in teams.

People seem to pick up the game very quickly, too.

Offline Mop it up

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Re: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2009, 01:18:20 AM »
People like genres and being able to adhere to their favorite genres. The fact that there is no real genre Grav fits into other than "action" hurts it because it's hard to recommend Grav to people if you have nothing to compare it to.
I'm tempted to call it an "action puzzle" game but even that doesn't seem exactly right. Calling it an arcade game might work since it seems like something that might be a hit in an arcade. Though, I do think you're right. This game exposes an unsettling problem with consumers today, many of them are weary to try new things. Anything that isn't tied to some established franchise is going to have trouble, especially something which can't easily be explained in words. I'm not sure if anyone unwilling to try new things would get a game like this at any price point.

Of course, I have to commend you for creating the game you wanted to make even realizing that it may not be well-received. I always appreciate that sort of artistic vision.

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What you'd get out of the game in the long run hinges more on gamer skill than gender. I've played the game co-op with all kinds of gamers, though. As long as you have one skilled player, you can generally hold up in teams.

People seem to pick up the game very quickly, too.
Well, I don't know if I'd say I have gamer skill, but I do have years of experience. My sister though, is probably what you might call a "non-gamer" but what I'd rather call a "casual" gamer because it doesn't sound condescending. She isn't a fan of difficult games, and doesn't really have much patience when it comes to learning a game. So, the controls are one thing which worry me, because if she doesn't pick up on it right away then I don't think she would stick with it.

I still might get Gravitronix anyway though. I like games with lots of mayhem, and this one looks pretty wild. I'm sure I could do a lot worse for $5 so it isn't like I have much to lose.

Offline JLowther

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Re: Medaverse Developer Diary: A Simple Challenge
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2009, 01:43:46 AM »
Well, I don't know if I'd say I have gamer skill, but I do have years of experience. My sister though, is probably what you might call a "non-gamer" but what I'd rather call a "casual" gamer because it doesn't sound condescending. She isn't a fan of difficult games, and doesn't really have much patience when it comes to learning a game. So, the controls are one thing which worry me, because if she doesn't pick up on it right away then I don't think she would stick with it.

I wouldn't worry about difficulty, as the game eases you in VERY gently at the start. I've watched my 65 year old mother play the game and even she does alright. If you're playing through campaign mode on a team, she'll do just fine. The later levels definitely get harder, but as you get through them, it definitely feels like team victory.

Even if you don't have a group of friends to play with, you can treat Grav like a party game with non-gamers and still get pretty good results from what I've found. I've seen enough non-gamers yell at the projectiles to know that they definitely get into it.

Also, you can definitely set the game to be plenty chaotic (and the later levels can get pretty chaotic as well).
« Last Edit: November 12, 2009, 02:10:34 AM by JLowther »