Post by: ruby_onix on January 10, 2005, 02:37:47 PM
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Steve Kent blasts Nintendo, 7 rules for fixing nintendo
What Nintendo needs to do
In this generation of console wars, GameCube came in third. Game Boy
Advance is obsolete. The initials DS may be short for ‘Definitely
Struggling’ instead of ‘Dual Screen’ if Sony launches PlayStation
Portable (PSP) at a reasonable price next year.
Nintendo, the company that re-launched and re-defined the video game
business, has been battered in the console business and looks like it
might be ripe for wreckage in handhelds.
The Situation:
As Microsoft entered the console wars, a lot of people asked, “Can
the market support three competitors?” The answer seems to be,
“Yes, but the guy who comes in last always dies.”
In 1986, Atari tried to compete with newcomers Nintendo and Sega. It
didn’t work and Atari wisely chose to sit out the 16-bit generation
before committing corporate hari-kari in the form of Jaguar.
In 1989, Sega and NEC started the 16-bit generation with Genesis and
TurboGrafx. Nintendo entered two years later, knocked NEC out of the
way; and the U.S. market never saw another NEC console again.
Sony did the same thing to Sega in the next generation. Sega Saturn
came in third place—not including 3DO and Jaguar. Sega did come back
with Dreamcast, but no company that has come in third has survived the
next generation.
4 In the current market, Nintendo has come in third place.
Could Nintendo follow in the steps of Sega, 3DO, and Atari and go
software only? With its many great franchises, Nintendo would be quite
the hit as a third-party publisher. Only, isn’t that what people said
about Sega?
The truth is that the Atari of today bears almost no relationship to the
Atari of the eighties. The Atari of old was cut in half. Both halves
have been sold and resold. The company currently known as Atari is
really a French company called Infogrames.
After a long fight, 3DO ceased to exist. Sega, the company that once
boasted it would supplant Electronic Arts as the number one independent
publisher, never lives up to its potential. Without hardware to
support, former console makers seem to give up their competitive drive.
So is Nintendo going to go the way of Sega and Atari? The short answer
is, ‘No.’,” says John Taylor, managing director and analyst for
Arcadia Investment Corp. “Sega made a bunch of missteps. Sega had to
deal with 32X, Sega CD, and a bunch of peripherals that confused
consumers, ate up resources, and distracted management.”
Granted, Nintendo has not released anything as notorious 32X, though
Virtual Boy came close. On the other hand, with Game Boy Advance SP
(Nintendo of America plans to discontinue the original GBA) and DS
running side-by-side, the company does have two systems confusing
consumers, eating resources, and distracting management.
And this muddle appropriately happens as Sony prepares to launch PSP.
“On the console side, it’s harder to imagine where Nintendo fits in
now than it was 12 months ago,” says Taylor.
When asked, the clerk at a GameStop store in Hawaii said that his store
had sold out of PlayStation 2 and Xbox. “We still have GameCubes in
stock.”
Asked why he still had GameCubes, he stated that it was fine for a
certain audience. “Xbox and PlayStation 2 are better for 15- to
30-year-olds. Most of the people who come here are between 15 and
30.”
The clerk said that DS was ‘awesome, but hard to find.’ “We only
get six in per week.” He suggested that I reserve a PSP, though he
could not say what the price would be.
Calls to game stores in Washington, New York, and California produce
similar results—though the clerks are seldom as friendly.
So this is the situation. Nintendo has been marginalized in the
console business. It will shortly face a most significant challenge its
portable business. Nintendo needs to make some fundamental changes.
The following are steps Nintendo must take to prosper over the next 18
months:
1. Abandon the ‘belle of the ball’ mentality.
Nintendo needs to abandon its former “star of the show” mentality
and start acting like a company that knows it’s in trouble. The good
news is that the Kyoto-giant has greatly improved one of its biggest
weaknesses—third-party relations. The bad news is that Nintendo’s
console sales are so low that even though they feel welcomed, many
publishers are not sure they want to jump on board with Nintendo.
“Nintendo has done a better job of working with third-party
publishers,” says Taylor. “The third parties aren’t worried about
the business model so much as they are about the GameCube’s market
potential.”
In other words, fewer people own GameCube, and those people seem to buy
less software than PlayStation 2 and Xbox owners.
Part of the problem is that Nintendo has abandoned the principles of
service that made it such a force.
Nintendo is notably more harsh than Microsoft or Sony in its handling
of smaller publications and fan sites. Right now, Nintendo needs to
cultivate allies and advocates. In a society filled with opinion
leaders, i.e. the Internet, Nintendo must court influential fans.
Along this same line, Nintendo needs to acknowledge the competition.
Nintendo executives say that DS and PSP were made for different
audiences. The truth is that when customers walk into Wall-Mart or
GameStop with $200, they are going to compare DS and PSP and choose one
over the other.
And these annual shortages… what’s with that? Nintendo has a
shortage of DS units. Do they think that is chic? They had similar
shortages after the launches of GameCube, N64, and Super NES. You would
learn how to manage inventory by now.
There is no logical reason for Nintendo to waste this window of time
before the launch of PSP. Yet here we are. With PSP supposedly
launching in three months, Nintendo is excitedly telling the press how
they cannot keep up with demand for DS.
Why in the world are GameStop and Electronics Boutique stores, arguably
the most influential chains in gaming, only receiving six DS units per
week? They should be saturated with DS systems.
The Nintendo of old, the one that sold approximately 100 million NESs,
simply tried harder. In the early days, NCL president Hiroshi Yamauchi
personally courted third-party publishers. Nintendo of America
president Minoru Arakawa met with store owners in New York and promised
to buy back unsold merchandise and helped set up a few store displays.
In order to regain market share, Nintendo needs to return to its former
Avis mentality. It needs to try harder.
2. Forget the bottom line.
In 1990, Nintendo and the NES owned 93 percent of the U.S. console
business. In 1994, the hottest year for 16-bit, the Super NES commanded
approximately 48 percent of the U.S. market and ruled in Japan. By the
end of the N64 generation, Nintendo was down to 33 percent of the
American console market. With GameCube, Nintendo is down to
approximately 15 percent.
That is a nearly steady drop of 50 percent from one generation to the
next.
The typical Nintendo response to this is something along the line of
their console business always remaining profitable. It’s a good and
persuasive response. Even as Sony strangled Nintendo in all three world
markets in the last year of the original PlayStation, Nintendo managed
to make money with N64 while Sony leaked like a sieve.
The problem is that if Nintendo’s share of the market keeps getting
smaller, the next generation will not be profitable.
There is another danger, too—people perceiving Nintendo as a company
that does not care about its customers. Granted, companies are only out
for themselves, but that does not mean they need to come across that
way.
A few years back, Nintendo defined ‘connectivity’ as meaning,
“You buy a $150-console, a $99-portable, a $10-cable, a $49-console
game, and a $29-portable cartridge.” That definition of
‘connectivity’ sounded awfully self-serving.
3. Know your market and stick to it.
“You could argue that Nintendo still has a defendable position with a
certain demographic,” says John Taylor. Taylor sees that demographic
as the youth market, but the research does not necessarily agree.
Recent surveys showed that the most desirable games for fourth and
fifth graders were “Halo 2” and “Grand Theft Auto: San
Andreas.” Most 10-year-old boys want whatever games their big
brothers want. What few 10-year-olds want is to look uncool.
“Wario” games are not perceived as cool.
The Hawaiian GameStop clerk identified PlayStation 2 and Xbox as
systems with games for players ages 15 to 30. He could not come up with
a target market for GameCube, even when pressed. All he would say was,
“Most of our customers are between 15 and 30.”
As N64 faded and GameCube launched, Nintendo sent out the message that
it was not just for kids. The problem is that none of the adult games
that followed, “Conker’s Bad Fur Day,” “Perfect Dark,”
“Eternal Darkness,” and the “Resident Evil” series, sold well or
drove hardware sales.
Here, the analysts and experts disagree. Some people say that Nintendo
needs to cultivate its position as the manufacturer of family-friendly
video game systems. “Nintendo cannot compete with Microsoft and
Sony,” said one reporter. “Nintendo is like a company.”
Others say that Nintendo can indeed change its stripes. “Look at
Cadillac,” says Taylor. “It used to be the car your grandfather
drove in the suburbs. Now, with its change of image, Cadillac is the
high-prestige car for urban drivers.”
4. Americanize, Americanize, Americanize
The bottom has dropped out of the Japanese video game market. It
shrank by one-third in 2001 alone. Japan, which bought the least
hardware and the most software in the past, was the most profitable
market in games. Now that the drop has occurred, North American is the
most lucrative market.
Only one Japanese company made it into the U.S. market’s top 10 games
of 2003—Nintendo. Nintendo had four games in the top 10—two of
which were “Pokemon.”
“Cute,” “Fluffy,” and “Funny,” words that describe so many
of the best Japanese games, just don’t appeal the way they used to.
American audiences are into speed, action, violence. Americans like 3D
adventures and first-person shooters. These are not big genres in
Japan. Sports, other than soccer, are huge in the United States.
Sports, other than soccer, do not sell well in Japan.
Nintendo has one shooter—“Metroid Prime.” The company has
abandoned sports.
“Nintendo needs to develop a Western-centric development network,”
says Taylor, and he is right. The problem is that with the admirable
exception of Retro Studios, Nintendo seems content letting second-party
partners like Rare and Silicon Knights slip away.
5. Keep doing what you do right
As angry and pessimistic as some gamers have become about Nintendo,
other insiders believe that Nintendo is doing many things exactly
right. “Nintendo is listening to a good mixture of customers and game
developers,” says Richard Doherty, research director of
Envisioneering.
Had Nintendo read the reviewers and bulletin boards, the Pokemon series
might have died two or three years ago. It didn’t, and Pokemon
“Ruby” and “Sapphire” both made it on to the NPD Group’s list
of the top 10 selling games of 2003. “Fire Red” and “Leaf
Green” are among the top sellers of 2004.
Many reviewers complained about the cel-shaded look of the new
“Zelda” game right up until the release of “Wind Waker.” Then
they proclaimed it. Now Nintendo is effectively breaking the
“Zelda” franchise into two separate lines with the ‘adult Link’
in games with more realistic graphics and the ‘young Link’ remaining
in cartoon-like cel-shading.
Despite all of the criticisms, Nintendo still manages to do many things
better than any other company in the business.
6. Stop with the mid-course corrections and hold to the basics
What did Sony and Microsoft do that was so brilliant with the launches
of their first console systems? Nothing. But even when things went
wrong, they kept to their game and that made a difference.
Saturn smeared PlayStation during the launch window in Japan. The
following year, N64 out-launched both of them. Sony did not falter.
Ken Kutaragi went right on making alliances, arranging exclusive games,
and building an empire.
Sony’s growth was insidious in Japan. First it was behind both
Saturn and N64, then it was behind only N64, then it ruled the market.
For two years after the launch of Xbox, people joked that Xbox should
be called the “Halo Delivery System.” But Microsoft remained
steady. Microsoft executives arranged exclusive deals with unlikely
partners such as Tecmo and Ubi Soft. Games continued to look better on
Xbox. More recently, Microsoft broke Sony’s stranglehold on online
support from EA Sports.
Sony may have sold more hardware in this generation, but Microsoft
ended the generation with the chic factor.
Sony has always said that it pandered to the Playboy crowd—not
meaning Playboy readers, but rather suggesting that sophisticated and
older demographic. Microsoft said it was going after a tech-savvy
crowd. Even when Sony executives publicly berated their counterparts at
Microsoft, both companies stayed the course.
And Nintendo? Nintendo has bounced around. First GameCube was the
safe system for kids, then it grew up and competed with Sony and
Microsoft, only to become a system children and parents could trust.
The same thing has happened with GBA. First GBA SP’s clamshell
design was to make it more adult-friendly. Then DS materialized, and
GBA SP turns out to have been a kids system all along.
Nintendo needs to pick a strategy and stick to it; and in no area is
that more important than in handhelds.
7. Either do Revolution right or don’t do Revolution at all
In the end, Nintendo is going to need to make a stand. Executives at
both Sony and Microsoft have made comments about Nintendo owning the
handheld market. Now Sony has invaded that space. Microsoft may still
follow.
Nintendo should make its stand with Revolution. To do this, Nintendo
needs to do a lot of things right from the start.
First, it’s time for Nintendo to discover the Internet. In Kyoto,
just like the rest of the world, people access to the Internet and for
more than a game of “Phantasy Star Online.” Nintendo executives
admit that not adding DVD capability to GameCube hurt them, it’s to
make the same admission with the Internet. People may not use Xbox
Live, but they want the option.
Next, it’s time for Nintendo executives to listen to what their
customers tell them. People like pretty graphics. People want the same
games with better graphics. Nintendo executives say they want
Revolution to be as revolutionary as DS. Fine, but make sure the
graphics are hugely improved.
Not everyone agrees with this. Richard Doherty compliments Nintendo
for not trying to “create a super computer in a $300 game box.”
This, he says, is what will separate Nintendo from Microsoft and Sony.
But if Microsoft and Sony are successful, that separation may not be
good.
The truth is that if good old “Madden NFL” looks better and plays
better on PlayStation 3 and NextBox, Maddeneers are going to buy those
systems. And, for the record, “Madden NFL 2004” was the best
selling game of 2003.
The best of all worlds would be for Nintendo to join forces with
Microsoft. Nintendo would handle Japan, Microsoft would launch in the
United States. Microsoft would make the box, Nintendo would make the
controller. Software would be shared.
Since that is not going to happen, Nintendo needs to launch on time
with good software and a strong proprietary library. If Microsoft
launches in 2005, Nintendo should launch in 2005 as well. Do not pull a
Dreamcast/3DO and come out too early, but do not allow the competition a
one-year head start. Contrary to what former Nintendo VP Peter Main
said in his final press conference, there is no benefit in coming last
to the party.
Finally Nintendo needs to have enough hardware at launch. Avoid
shortages—real or trumped up—and fill the channel.
Nintendo can still recapture much its former glory, even in this
competitive marketplace. If the Red Socks can break their 50-year
curse, Nintendo can break out. What Nintendo cannot do is continue to
make the same old mistakes and survive.
Personally, I think there are a few good points here and there. And a lot of crap. And a lot of crap that conflicts with the other crap, and starts a lovely crap-flinging stinkwar with itself. I don't know where to begin in finding faults with it. IGN would be proud. Mostly, my respect for Steven Kent just fell down a few steps, but this is telling of the situation that Nintendo is in, and the hurdles that they'll have to overcome.
Post by: UncleBob on January 10, 2005, 02:43:01 PM
>Game Boy Advance is obsolete.
Wha? Anyone have GBA sales figures for the last few months?
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 10, 2005, 02:44:32 PM
And now the rest of the article is completely voided...
Post by: KnowsNothing on January 10, 2005, 03:20:00 PM
I didn't get past "step 4." Garbage.
Post by: Mario on January 10, 2005, 03:29:07 PM
Post by: odifiend on January 10, 2005, 03:34:28 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
4. Americanize, Americanize, Americanize
And now the rest of the article is completely voided...
No, not really. Apart from it being stupid to pick a title of one topic (of seven) and decide it voids an article, Nintendo is a business and has had press conferences boasting that they were a good one. Good businesses go after the largest demographic, thus in the case of video games, America...
Pretty much I agree with Steven Kent and to an extent IGN. IGN is a lot more 'bitchy' about it, but yes Nintendo needs to change for both itself and its fans.
Re: Connectivity - the fact that there were 100 dollar hardware requirements limits the amount of people who can ideally play. Not everyone has a GBA- some people do have two or three (like myself
) but not everyone has one. Then there is the fact that with the original GBA you need to have a supply of batteries on hand.Re: GBA 'obselete' - I definitely got the impression he meant when compared to the GBASP and DS. Kent treated the GBA and SP hardware as two separate systems (which is true) and says that the original is obselete in comparison (which is also true due to the aforementioned battery issues).
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 10, 2005, 03:46:19 PM
No it's not, it's being realistic...Something as huge as telling "Ninty to Americanize" is absolutely sickening...To Americanize a gaming company means to make gaming a farce...
I'll take a slightly-less-as-profitting-Japanese-Ninty over Hey-look-at-us-Americanized-like-EA Ninty...INSOLENCE!
Post by: Procession on January 10, 2005, 04:01:10 PM
I also thought the "know your market and stick to it" point was interesting, but one I disagree with. If anything Nintendo should want to appeal to everyone who plays videogames, rather that catering to Nintendo fans alone. That was one of my points in a previous thread about the overuse of Mario; he restricts general appeal to Nintendo fans, it isn't as powerful a brand as it was 15 years ago. You can be family-friendly while still being everyone-else friendly.
Post by: ruby_onix on January 10, 2005, 04:09:21 PM
Nintendo is doomed!
5. Keep doing what you do right
Nintendo is doomed!
When asked, the clerk at a GameStop store in Hawaii said that his store had sold out of PlayStation 2 and Xbox. “We still have GameCubes in stock.”
Asked why he still had GameCubes, he stated that it was fine for a certain audience. “Xbox and PlayStation 2 are better for 15- to 30-year-olds. Most of the people who come here are between 15 and 30.”
The clerk said that DS was ‘awesome, but hard to find.’ “We only get six in per week.” He suggested that I reserve a PSP, though he could not say what the price would be.
Calls to game stores in Washington, New York, and California produce similar results—though the clerks are seldom as friendly.
So this is the situation. Nintendo has been marginalized in the console business.
Competitors have shortages? Nintendo is doomed!
And these annual shortages… what’s with that? Nintendo has a
shortage of DS units. Do they think that is chic? They had similar
shortages after the launches of GameCube, N64, and Super NES. You would
learn how to manage inventory by now.
There is no logical reason for Nintendo to waste this window of time
before the launch of PSP. Yet here we are. With PSP supposedly
launching in three months, Nintendo is excitedly telling the press how
they cannot keep up with demand for DS.
Nintendo has shortages? Nintendo is doomed!
So is Nintendo going to go the way of Sega and Atari? The short answer
is, ‘No.’,” says John Taylor, managing director and analyst for
Arcadia Investment Corp. “Sega made a bunch of missteps. Sega had to
deal with 32X, Sega CD, and a bunch of peripherals that confused
consumers, ate up resources, and distracted management.”
Granted, Nintendo has not released anything as notorious 32X, though
Virtual Boy came close. On the other hand, with Game Boy Advance SP
(Nintendo of America plans to discontinue the original GBA) and DS
running side-by-side, the company does have two systems confusing
consumers, eating resources, and distracting management.
OMG! Nintendo has TWO handhelds at the SAME TIME? AND they once had a Virtual Boy? I am shocked. Nintendo is Sega!
Post by: odifiend on January 10, 2005, 04:19:10 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 10, 2005, 04:48:10 PM
Since when does this have to be the case? If this were so then titles like Viewtiful Joe and Katamari Damancy wouldn't sell a copy...Obviously SOME PEOPLE are buying these titles, those that like quirky Japanese titles...Ninty's problem is NOT it's quirky Japanese titles(hell, how did the NES do so well then?) but it's image, which it will never fix ever...All Ninty can do is add a few new mature titles to the mix(made by 2nd or 3rd parties) and hopefully take full advantage of the media next gen...That is, if asshats like Steven Kent will get off their highhorse and stop criticizing Ninty for the most asinine things...
Oh, and thanks for personally attacking me...That really added to your post...
Post by: odifiend on January 10, 2005, 05:25:05 PM
To continue to hold dev interest and to continue to make profit in the long run, Nintendo does have to cater to that consumer- do they have to make the games themself? No, but they need to be available.
NES did well because it had the whole industry on lock. Mario's original quirkiness did bring Nintendo into the limelight but it was all the developers wanting to develop for Nintendo that ensured the NES and SNES performed well. Good business decisions and liasions made the NES and SNES.
Taking advantage of the media would be a dream come true- it honestly could fix there image IMO. But that isn't something that just happens. If I dare say, Microsoft's ad campaign is very American- tens of millions were spent to get the word out. Word of mouth spread. Mindshare eventually did turn into marketshare. Nintendo should not spend as much as money as Microsoft, but they could do their image a great service by at least Americanizing their ad campaign.
Post by: matt oz on January 10, 2005, 05:53:44 PM
As a child, you really don't have a deep knowledge of the business world, or the workings of an international corporation.
Although some of Steven Kent's points contradict themselves, as others have already pointed out, the fact that Nintendo needs to Americanize is perfectly clear to anyone with common sense. You, Bill, cannot make the distinction between business practices and game development. America is the larger market. Let Nintendo (the corporation) figure out a better way to deal with the American consumers, while Nintendo (the developer) still makes the quirky Japanese games, and courts several developers that do the same.
Times have changed, and Nintendo's market share is now 15%. 15 years ago it was 93%. Since you're such a rabid, die-hard Nintendo fan, you should want them to hang around for another generation of consoles, right? So do I.
And it is possible, very possible, for a company to change their image. Celebrities do it all the time. As Steven Kent pointed out, Cadillac was able to do it. Look at VH1, even. 10 years ago, they were playing "adult contemporary" videos 24/7. Now they have about a dozen original reality shows, and celebrity tabloid shows.
It may be hard to relate this to the video game world, since it's such a new business, as compared to others. But if VH1 can be considered cool, then anything is possible.
Post by: MaleficentOgre on January 10, 2005, 05:57:38 PM
Post by: Mario on January 10, 2005, 05:59:21 PM
Quote
Although some of Steven Kent's points contradict themselves, as others have already pointed out, the fact that Nintendo needs to Americanize is perfectly clear to anyone with common sense.
I disagree. Nintendo don't want to be viewed just like every other boring company, what they have is unique.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 10, 2005, 06:00:45 PM
~~~~~
And here's a look into Yamauchi Hiroshi-sama's mind set. (I HAVE NO IDEA IF THESE SHOULD BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY, CUZ IT'S FAKE)
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 10, 2005, 06:10:41 PM
As a child, you really don't have a deep knowledge of the business world, or the workings of an international corporation.
This "child" doesn't need a shred of knowledge of business to know what makes a game fun...A generic, "hip" company does not a fun game make...Nintendo is one of the last true artists of the videogame world, and I'd really like them to stay that way...Of course, it's for money, but they aren't a Sony who throws out crap...
Do you think an artist will rearrange their strategy to a more modern taste if their paintings aren't selling as much? Perhaps, but only if they truely do not feel strongly for the product they make...A true artist will follow their strategem no matter what stands in their way...And that's the Nintendo I cherish: one who develops games that are FUN, not games that are hip, gory, and mainstream...
Post by: Procession on January 10, 2005, 06:33:22 PM
Like every other company, Nintendo has a responsibility to maximise returns for its shareholders. i.e. They want to make money; Steven Kent is just pointing out how they can do that.
Post by: Savior on January 10, 2005, 06:34:35 PM
Quote
What Nintendo cannot do is continue to...
In the end hes right. Bitch about him all you want but he makes real good points.
Post by: odifiend on January 10, 2005, 06:40:18 PM
). Then there is Nintendo the corporation. But they don't do an entirely terrible job either. They seem to give most developers all the time they need, they make profit and lately they are even getting much better at 3rd party support. Nintendo's only real fault is average marketing and really sub par early marketing. Unfortunately they can't get any 3rd party support which cruelly and ultimately explains many of their short comings. First party games are practically the only sellers and those don't realize their potential due to limit fan base..yatta yadda, same ol' same old.Nintendo's problem is the vicious cycle. Kent and IGN don't want this to happen again so they make these lists hoping that Nintendo execs get it perfect this time. I think a lot of their analysis is pretty accurate but sometimes it is not delivered in the best way, especially with IGN.
Kent, who I always remember being very positive of Nintendo, is experiencing Nintendo-should-be-top-dog-or-at-least-close-second-but-is-last syndrome. He lacks Bill's faith. ^_^
Post by: RABicle on January 10, 2005, 06:49:27 PM
Post by: Mario on January 10, 2005, 06:49:41 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: SaviorQuote
What Nintendo cannot do is continue to...
In the end hes right. Bitch about him all you want but he makes real good points.
No, I don't think he does.
I think if Nintendo want to be number one they should release more Mario Party games, perhaps three each year, one on each of the systems they are supporting, and they should all have connectivity with each other. We also need more Pokemon spinoff games and just more games with Mario in them in general.
Post by: Berto2K on January 10, 2005, 06:55:33 PM
The crowd that Kent and a few others here want Nintendo to drastically start aiming for only knows game names. They don't know developers and publishers. When I gave a few examples of the games I was going to play at E3, my former coworker kept asking if they were going to be on PS2. Nintendo doesn't have to change anything about their games. Their problem which pretty much most everyone agrees with is how they present them in commercials to the masses.
If you can't see that the market is becoming stagnant from too many similar games then you need to walk outside for a day and get a breathe of fresh air. Sony is delivering the same thing just wrapped in different characters and colors (maps, textures, bumpmapping, and whatever else) just because they know one way works. They aren't daring enough to try something new. They rely on 3rd parties to get their system off store shelves.
Nintendo is a business who is making lots of money. Lots more than the other 2. They have no reason to change the product the produce, only how they market it. Their games have brought something new and fresh each generation. Like a breathe of fresh air that there is still creativity somewhere in the industry. If Nintendo were to mold is ways akin to EA, MS, and Sony....I fell for the entire gaming population because there would be a crash just as bad if not worse then the one Nintendo revived in the early eighties.
Post by: Shift Key on January 10, 2005, 06:56:15 PM
Post by: Savior on January 10, 2005, 06:56:35 PM
Whats so wrong? I mean Nintendo fans somehow ignore anything remotely negative about Nintendo as rubbish. Nintendo isnt the powerhouse they were 10-15 years ago
Post by: Mario on January 10, 2005, 06:58:41 PM
Post by: Hostile Creation on January 10, 2005, 07:00:00 PM
Shut up. For every bad game Nintendo has made this generation, I can throw out two or three that kick ass. Mario Party 6 is a cheap title. Americanized, if you will. Anyway, it's really pitiful to throw out something like that.
Nothing wrong with americanization, though it seems to me Nintendo already is. They have second parties here (Retro), and few of the quirk titles I'd actually love to play make it over anyway. It's all in English. What exactly do you want, for people to blow the crap out of each other? It's not perfect, no. But that's not the problem, and it's still improving regardless.
If you're asking a company that is primarily Japanese to become more "American" for the sake of improving sales, that's just plain insulting and you should use some goddamn sense.
I can't be bothered to read all of that, whether it's valid or not, but I did randomly read section 6. His logic there is admittedly ridiculous, and most of that bouncing around is his own speculation and not anything that the public cares to acknowledge or that Nintendo has said. Since when have they said that the SP is for kids and the DS is the adult replacement. So far as I can tell, both still equally appeal to both audiences. Anyway, I didn't read it all so I can't say much, but that one point strikes me as being at least somewhat invalid.
Post by: meldavid on January 10, 2005, 07:00:36 PM
Post by: matt oz on January 10, 2005, 07:04:33 PM
They mentioned the PS3. They mentioned the next XBox. They mentioned the PSP.
They failed to mention Nintendo, and even the DS. Nintendo just released a brand new system, and it's being totally ignored by the mainstream media in America. If that's not a sign that they need to Americanize, then what is?
And Bill, for the record, Nintendo is not an artist, it is a corporation. It is a business that needs to make money to survive. And you still seem to be unable to distinguish Nintendo the corporation from Nintendo the developer. Your artist analogy is flawed because an artist can die poor and hungry making good art, or he can die old and rich making popular art.
And yes, I know Nintendo is making money, but looking at their financial statements for the 2004 fiscal year, they didn't make as much as they did in 2003, and that is not a good sign for shareholders or potential investors.
And Berto, who cares if people know the name EA or not? They are the largest publisher in the world, with the most employees, and the highest profits. It may not be a household name now, but the way they're heading, they will be soon.
Post by: MaleficentOgre on January 10, 2005, 07:07:35 PM
Post by: Caillan on January 10, 2005, 07:21:38 PM
Quote
I mean Nintendo fans somehow ignore anything remotely negative about Nintendo as rubbish.
I think most of us are just sick of Nintendo being DOOMED, as they've been so for the the past few years and it's really getting old now. They're making good profits, and they're making good games.
Everyone on these forums is DOOMED
Post by: Ian Sane on January 10, 2005, 07:51:51 PM
I don't agree with everything in this article (the GBA being obsolete is pretty wacky for example) but Mr Kent does make some good points. Just because you don't like everything presented doesn't mean there isn't something worthwhile in the editorial.
1. Abandon the ‘belle of the ball’ mentality.
Pretty standard criticism of Nintendo's relationship with third parties. Criticises Nintendo's sheer arrogance which is something they need to fix. I disagree with the part about system shortages though. Sony has had more problems getting PSPs into Japanese stores than Nintendo has with the DS. Plus Sony had the infamous PS2 launch shortage. Nintendo has problems but system shortages isn't a crucial one.
2. Forget the bottom line.
I agree completely with this point. Nintendo and many of their fans often use profitability to justify Nintendo’s under performance. This is a short term benefit. If less people buy Nintendo systems each generation then eventually they will lose money. That’s just simple logic that anyone can figure out.
3. Know your market and stick to it.
The main point here looks to be that Nintendo targets kids yet kids aren’t interested in stuff that’s for kids. Kids like stuff with guns and dark themes and stuff teens and adults like. They like cool stuff. That’s immature and a little sick but that’s how it is. I think Nintendo needs to create more games that bridge the gap between kids and adults. Ocarina of Time, Goldeneye, and Metroid Prime are all great examples of games like this. From a creative standpoint I don’t want them to alter their games in inappropriate ways just because of this but I don’t see why they can’t just have Mario stop talking with his stupid voice and make Yoshi look and sound like he did in Yoshi’s Island again.
4. Americanize, Americanize, Americanize
Looking at this title I had an kneejerk reaction to reject the points made here. But reading what he means by “Americanize” it doesn’t sound so bad. I like Japanese games far more than American ones. The Japanese make art. Most American publishers make product. My desire to see Nintendo succeed is purely because I want them to survive so they can make the games I like. I don’t want them changing their games just to make money. That’s not exactly what’s being said here though. Kent mentions that Nintendo needs a network of American devs and I agree completely. Nintendo let Rare and SK go without making any real attempt to replace them. That SUCKS. Without quality non-Japanese devs Nintendo lacks diversity in its lineup. The fact that they’re so Japanese isn’t the problem as much as that they’re so homogenous. Non-Japanese devs contribute types of games Nintendo wouldn’t make on their own and those are essential additions to their lineup. Does anyone here have a problem with Nintendo having a group of exclusive non-Japanese developers at their disposal? They had one when the Cube launched and we all thought it was a great idea.
5. Keep doing what you do right
Seems like a “well duh” point. Obviously Nintendo should continue to do what they do right.
6. Stop with the mid-course corrections and hold to the basics
I don’t quite get what he’s saying here. Going with one strategy and sticking to it is a good idea but I don’t think Nintendo really has problems with this. They just need a good strategy to begin with.
7. Either do Revolution right or don’t do Revolution at all
YES! I’ve said it several times: the Revolution has to be PERFECT. That means there should be no silly easily avoidable mistakes like the N64 and Cube have. That means providing all options including online support and a flexible controller. That means not providing any excuses for someone to reject the Revolution because with Nintendo’s recent track record people are looking for those excuses and they’re not looking hard. It won’t take much to make someone apathetic to the Revolution.
Then Kent does his little MS-Nintendo union pipe dream which aside from being unrealistic is pretty stupid since MS would clearly benefit more from that. Though I don’t think an alliance with a third party would be a bad idea. Dropping licencing fees in exchange for exclusive support from Capcom for example could be lucrative and would benefit both parties in the long run.
So in conclusion I agree with some of Kent’s points and disagree with others. He’s got some good points in there and although his solutions aren’t perfect he is right about one important thing: Nintendo needs to make some changes.
Post by: Berto2K on January 10, 2005, 08:00:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: matt oz
I was watching CNBC the other day, and they were talking about all these game developers' stocks going up this year, and then they segwayed into the console market for 2005.
They mentioned the PS3. They mentioned the next XBox. They mentioned the PSP.
They failed to mention Nintendo, and even the DS. Nintendo just released a brand new system, and it's being totally ignored by the mainstream media in America. If that's not a sign that they need to Americanize, then what is?
Sorry Matt, CNBC is hardly mainstream media. CNBC is for older adults, not the 18-25 year olds that most game developers are pushing for. Heck even the average 25-30 year old doesn't watch CNBC. How do I know? I am surrounded by them at both of my 2 jobs as coworkers and as customers. Wasn't it, oh thats right...the DS was labeled as the "Tickle Me Elmo" of this last holiday season by multiple media/news outlets. It got plenty of attention. When I was in stores just wasting time playing the demo units, parents would walk by and recognize it. Did they know what it was called exactly? No, but they new what is was and that is all that is needed to generate sales.
Quote
Originally posted by: matt oz
And Bill, for the record, Nintendo is not an artist, it is a corporation. It is a business that needs to make money to survive. And you still seem to be unable to distinguish Nintendo the corporation from Nintendo the developer. Your artist analogy is flawed because an artist can die poor and hungry making good art, or he can die old and rich making popular art.
And yes, I know Nintendo is making money, but looking at their financial statements for the 2004 fiscal year, they didn't make as much as they did in 2003, and that is not a good sign for shareholders or potential investors.
First of all, yes Nintendo is a corporation but it is made up of game designers who are artists. Why are there not game design majors in art schools if it is not an art form? You analogy is flawed as well. An artist can die poor and hungry making popular art as well becuase it will blend in and get mixed with everything else that looks like it, or an artist can die old and rich from making unique art that stands out and is valued more. The last part of your paragraph is the most fun though. How can you predict Nintendo's financial statements when their financial year doesn't end until the end of March??? You have a DS launch in Australia in mid February, and numerous quality titles coming out across all three platforms before then.
Quote
Originally posted by: matt oz
And Berto, who cares if people know the name EA or not? They are the largest publisher in the world, with the most employees, and the highest profits. It may not be a household name now, but the way they're heading, they will be soon.
See thats where your not connecting. They will not know the company name. They don't care to. They have a better chance of connecting a game to a developer if you tell them "It was made by the same company that made Madden." They hear Madden and $$$ sales ++. Thats all they care about/need. All they look for is the name on the box which is the title. Perfect example is Enter the Matrix. People saw the name of the game and bought it up as quickly as rabbits giving birth because the name was cool. We all knew the game was mediocre at best. But that doesn't matter to them.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on January 10, 2005, 08:30:14 PM
Nintendo are DOOMED if they don't do all this.
Post by: Procession on January 10, 2005, 08:55:56 PM
Post by: joeposh on January 10, 2005, 09:12:53 PM
It's not about image or the types of games that are being made as much as the hype factor. The Xbox was struggling to keep it's head above water up until recently but due to an amazing PR campain they managed to make titles like Fable and Halo 2 must have titles, not only for Xbox owners but for the vast majority of casual gamers. Halo is a household name now... not because of commercials or game footage but because of hype. Hype that was spread through incredible word of mouth... not since FF7 have I seen one game move so many systems. It established Xbox as the clear 2nd in the market and made them the hot console.
At the same time Nintendo launched one of it's biggest sequels.... Metroid Prime 2, yet another amazing title and one that should have appealed to a large demographic. Unfortunately the hoopla surrounding it was minimal. No grand proclomations or savy promos... just a series of ehh commercials aired on various cable networks and a system bundle. If you didn't already know what Metroid was, you didn't care. Nintendo needs to make people care again... Xbox has one amazing series and it takes off... Nintendo has Metroid, Zelda, and various other video game icons that could easily become pop culture staples once more if an effective and innovative LONG TERM (Zelda teaser magazine AD's should appearing like... tomorrow to really start things off right) promotional campaign were set into motion.
They also need to bring back series like Punch Out that would appeal to the masses instead of sticking Mario in every new sports game they produce, as has been said before... he is beloved... but anyone who buys a game just cause mario is in it probably owns a gamecube already anyway, it's good for pushing 3rd party software but not for moving consoles and increasing marketshare.
Nintendo needs momentum going into the next generation. Resident Evil 4 may give them a catalyst to spark a renewed interest in the Gamecube... but they need to follow it up with some strong promotions for other games (i.e. the new "adult" Zelda series) to really make significant gains. Halo 2 and GTA are finally starting to quiet down... they can't squander this oppertunity to finally get some traction.
Post by: WuTangTurtle on January 10, 2005, 09:29:06 PM
Nintendo needs to find a way to change its image. Revolution IMO needs to perfect ONLINE console gaming. Lets face it Xbox live is not a success (either is Sony's).
I've had Xbox live for over a year and I hardly ever use it (only reason i still have it is they gave me a free second year). All Xbox live does is connect xbox's system on a network not an actual server.
Nintendo should have online servers so that ppl can go into their "fav server" and play against some familiar ppl. Xbox live is done wrong because u play against one person and you have to instantly decide to befriend them or not.
Nintendo should make their online gaming more of a community. MMO games work extremingly well because of the community aspect.
Nintendo ads need serious changes, forget being funny. Nintendo needs to be informative. They need to sell to the consumer, in other words inform them to death like a sales person untill they say "I'm sold!"
Revolution needs to do the same, tell me why it is better. Does it have online? Online is Free? How many games? Wireless Controller included? Includes mic for online gaming? Includes a (Insert AAA title)? etc.
IMO if they crammed down reasons why to buy over the competition and i do mean advertisements that put XboxNext and PS3 in direct comparision and then say why Revolution is better would work because without that ppl simply are not informed at all. But of course do it in a stylish way.
if u don't inform why it is better thats where ppl say XboxNext or PS3?
As for 3rd party suuport Nintendo needs to give developers a 80% off fees for launch window games and 50% off fees for any game made within the first generation. This is seriously important beacause american and european developers already know that the Gamecube is the easiest to develop for but the lowest in profit margins due to sales and fees.
It's now freaking late and im tired so i quit. Sorry for wasting your time.
Post by: matt oz on January 10, 2005, 09:47:59 PM
Quote
by berto:
The last part of your paragraph is the most fun though. How can you predict Nintendo's financial statements when their financial year doesn't end until the end of March???
I was talking about the financial year that ended in March of 2004. That's why it's called the 2004 Financial Statement on Nintendo's corporate website. If you still don't understand, then I'm afraid I can't make it any more clear.
Post by: Caillan on January 10, 2005, 09:59:30 PM
Secondly, who is to say that Nintendo hasn't attempted to make these changes yet? At E3 when they admitted they needed to focus on a larger market. Good games take at least two years to develop, and these sorts of adjustments will also take time.
Marketing is the same. Right now Nintendo has to actually work its way up from having a negative image to a positive one, and especially concentrate on being able to successfully advertise Zelda to the North American market. I can't comment on the marketing myself because I come from New Zealand, but just now I read something on GameSpy praising Nintendo's recent marketing. I don't think I've ever seen anything very posititve about Nintendo on GameSpy before.
If Kent had of stuck to one or two main criticisms, this article would have been fine, but instead he contradicts himself about shortages and calls the GBA 'obsolete'.
Post by: Berto2K on January 10, 2005, 10:26:22 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: matt ozQuote
by berto:
The last part of your paragraph is the most fun though. How can you predict Nintendo's financial statements when their financial year doesn't end until the end of March???
I was talking about the financial year that ended in March of 2004. That's why it's called the 2004 Financial Statement on Nintendo's corporate website. If you still don't understand, then I'm afraid I can't make it any more clear.
I completely understand it when you put it that way. But still, lets look at what could happen in the '05 statements. You have the launch of the DS in JPN, North America, and Australia. Not to metion large releases like RE4, MP2, Mario Party 6 (laugh if you want, it sells), Minish Cap, Mario DS, Wario Ware DS/GBA, and others. That is just the end of the last calendar year let alone the first have of 2004. Nintendo is putting themselves in the right spot to go out on a high point momemtum-wisewith the Cube and growing momentum for Revolution.
Post by: oohhboy on January 11, 2005, 01:50:21 AM
The DS is fine. Launches historically have always ran into some shortage problems of one sort or another. Engineered or otherwise. His first point should have been retitled "Nintendo should get off it's imaginary perch". While the store policies of the NES era is effective, Steve forgot that that Hiroshi was then willing to play Hitler with the third parties with a no one gets out alive type tactics. naturally, such tactics have been deemed unethical, nintendo must do more to ensure that third parties honour agreements made. Hell, the industry needs more honour all round.
Nintendo can't afford to hemmerage away thier wealth. it's got nothing to fall back on. They arn't trying to break in to an industry. There is more than one way for a company to die. Bleeding to death is not an option. A shareholder exodus would kill the entire company just as surely. Nintendo can't win via attrition. not going to win through Viva resistance Apple style. Needs something closer to a D-day.
What Nintendo is good at is not the 0 to 15 year-old bracket. What they are good at are games. Nuff said.
nintendo doesn't need a funamental shift of policy in the games they make. They need to give thier subsideries in America and Europe a free hand with a cheque. Along with that, a strong communications network connecting them to avoid overlap and having the company suing itself like Sony like to do.
5. Keep doing what you do right. No brainer.
A more defined game plan is needed. if you got a problem, you go fix it. If you have to change tack to catch better wind. So be it. Make it count and be loud about it. Steve forgets that Sony and MS got lucky. Nintendo could have rode on Goldeneye anlmost indefinatly if not for FF7. SSBM would have wasted PS2 if the console wasn't 1 year late. MS managed to milk Halo effectively. 2nd place or 3rd place, PS2 is the winner and there is no comparison. Yeah your second place. But what about the guy in front of you?
7. Either do Revolution right or don’t do Revolution at all.
On the surface, it looks like good advice. But if they don't do anything, the generation after they would be forced to re-break into the market. A potentally worse position that releasing a super computer in a box. Nintendo must play thier cards regardless. They must hold ground for a daring move that other can see, but are unwilling to to take. Not slapping online to anything that moves. Not slapping Mario in a prono. Something that other companies would be forced to stand up and follow. Revolution, if is this that daring plan, then god speed. Otherwise that is one hell of an overblown name for a console.
Post by: Plugabugz on January 11, 2005, 03:06:55 AM
Replace America with Australia. I still think Nintendo Europe and Australia are the left hand that doesn't know what the right hand [Nintendo America/Japan] is doing. They are out of touch, and the quality of marketing used doesn't generally attract attention. Subtle Japanese humour doesn't work effectively on British Television.
While Microsoft put simple, yet effective ads on the sides of buses for Halo 2, and there was huge billboards for GTA: San Andreas, that was designed to gather mass attention - nintendo uses methods that are quirky but don't have sticking power. The Donkey Konga advert is a good example.
The public, in my opinion, has since moved away from being told what to buy but how to attract their attention and indirectly told to do so. Nintendo have stuck to the previous formula, which resulting, is out of date.
One of my favourite artists sang (Nina Jayne - No Ordinary Pain): There's always someone worse off than yourself.
Nintendo shouldn't even contemplate fixing Japan and America when there are weaker links in the chain that need dealing with first.
Post by: couchmonkey on January 11, 2005, 04:58:18 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: odifiend
Nintendo's problem is the vicious cycle. Kent and IGN don't want this to happen again so they make these lists hoping that Nintendo execs get it perfect this time. I think a lot of their analysis is pretty accurate but sometimes it is not delivered in the best way, especially with IGN.
This is exactly what I wanted to say. Steven Kent and even IGNCube mean well. Both want to see Nintendo succeed, and they write articles like this in the hopes of getting across what they think Nintendo needs to improve on. In some cases they may be misguided or plain ol' wrong, but I think a lot of Nintendo fans are misguided or plain 'ol wrong in thinking that these are articles AGAINST Nintendo. The people who write these articles love Nintendo, but realize that it's struggling. If these people really hated Nintendo, they just wouldn't write an article about the company at all, they'd ignore Nintendo like everyone else does!
My point is, don't dismiss these articles as people being Nintendo haters, it's not true.
As for the article itself, there were a lot of things I disagreed with, but he made some good points. I'd like to see Nintendo shift it's focus from GBA to 95% DS as soon as possible. Let third parties carry the GBA on for as long as it can last, Nintendo's future is in the DS. I also agree that Nintendo needs to go online and needs to make Revolution as graphically capable as the other systems, although the notion of teaming up with Microsoft is blasphemy.
Post by: Deguello on January 11, 2005, 08:23:52 AM
This is another one of those OMG Doomed articles, and it's not really any different than what I have heard or read before. the fact that Steven Kent wrote it leaves me deeply, deeply disappointed.
Post by: Savior on January 11, 2005, 08:28:42 AM
Lets not forget the SNES was number 1, they werent a soulless EA wannabe... In the end some Nintendo fans simply dont want anything negative said about Nintendo. Nintendo cannot stay the course and survive. The PSP already has a GTA... If you dont think thats a juggernaut waiting to happen then your truelly blind
Post by: KDR_11k on January 11, 2005, 08:56:26 AM
I'm not sure how successful western-oriented Nintendo games would be. What would be the point of those? Westerners (apparently, because I can't see it) want samey games with lotsa graphics and gore (while the public voted bush, game publishers and the ESRB rather have gore in their games
) and stuff and I don't see how Nintendo could create an appealing offer there. How would Nintendo's games stand out there? "Oooh, Gory Fragfest 19 was made by that Mario-company!" I mean, when you want to sell a product you have to make people want the product and since making them want it out of hype isn't something Nintendo is good at they need to make them want it by offering a product that's actually desirable. But how could they do that when they're trying to make a samey graphics game?
Post by: Dirk Temporo on January 11, 2005, 09:00:54 AM
EDIT: And the Red Sox curse lasted longer than 50 years. What is this guy, retarded? Also, I don't want exactly what he said. Some "$300 super computer machine" or whatever. I want a system that plays games. I already have THREE DVD players. I don't need another one. And the Internet? I HAVE A COMPUTER! Jeez...
Post by: Ian Sane on January 11, 2005, 09:04:17 AM
Ever played Goldeneye? You know, that non-Japanese Nintendo published classic that sold millions of copies and remains one of the best games ever made? Or how about Metroid Prime? Or DONKEY KONG COUNTRY?! It's possible for Nintendo to publish a game with western designs and still have it be amazing and feel like a Nintendo game. It's possible because it's been done NUMEROUS times. Why do you think Rare was such a big deal on the SNES and N64? Not only is the idea possible but it worked really well.
Post by: odifiend on January 11, 2005, 09:31:04 AM
Post by: Savior on January 11, 2005, 10:49:13 AM
Post by: BiLdItUp1 on January 11, 2005, 11:11:11 AM
Post by: Hostile Creation on January 11, 2005, 12:17:25 PM
LOL Doom
As in the game. Not Nintendo's doom.
Post by: joshnickerson on January 11, 2005, 04:08:52 PM
Post by: Savior on January 11, 2005, 04:56:58 PM
Post by: Berto2K on January 11, 2005, 07:01:13 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: joshnickerson
I was going to post a retort to Steven Kent's comments, but then I realized I didn't know who the hell Steven Kent was and I really didn't give a s*** about his opinion.
Steven Kent writes for Gamespot (i think), and USA Today (i think). I know its a major publication.
I met him one time...really nerdy guy.
Post by: Artimus on January 11, 2005, 09:53:53 PM
Nintendo is failing, but keep denying it. You can cry when your only choice is PS5 and Xbox4 and Nintendo is a 3rd party developer.
Post by: xts3 on January 11, 2005, 10:27:07 PM
Also they just dont have the money to bribe game developers for exclusives, so I really think they will have an uphill battle next generation with people like Bill gates waiting with a wad of cash to keep the best games exclusive to his consoles launch window. Sony knows the exclusivity game too, whenever I read "Square, electronic arts." on the front of every Final fantasy game, you know why Nintendo lost. Their library of games got sacked in a big way, while PS2 and Xbox are growing their game libraries Nintendo's still for the most part is small.
In short Nintendo is going to have to foot the bill, bribe or do whatever they can to get the games on their system if they ever hope to gain an outstanding library of games.
Post by: xts3 on January 11, 2005, 10:42:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Artimus
You guys think Nintendo is perfect don't you? You don't even understand the concept of money being needed to run a business.
Nintendo is failing, but keep denying it. You can cry when your only choice is PS5 and Xbox4 and Nintendo is a 3rd party developer.
Note that the Xbox isn't exactly doing stellar from a business standpoint, if it wasn't for Bills money Xbox would have died in a big way. Not to mention Microsoft was going for the jugular when they bought out Rare, one of Nintendo's best developers. Nintendo got killed because they lacked a huge game library and developer support. Lacking in Fighting games, RPG's and Racing games, Where is burnout 3 for the GC? Nintendo missed the point that they have to cover all the genres and on top of that have the killer apps as well.
Post by: oohhboy on January 11, 2005, 11:42:46 PM
Exclusives that arn't exclusives. Does that "ONLY FOR" label count these days?. That is a problem that is going to bite the industry in the ass big time in the future. Increasingly unethical tactics like "Timed exclusives". It's either exclusive, or not. Especially if you and your mother know it is not exclusive.
If this is what America is bringing into the industry, count me out.
Post by: Mario on January 12, 2005, 12:10:56 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Artimus
You guys think Nintendo is perfect don't you? You don't even understand the concept of money being needed to run a business.
Nintendo is failing, but keep denying it. You can cry when your only choice is PS5 and Xbox4 and Nintendo is a 3rd party developer.
Nintendo don't NEED to do anything, they're making a CRAP LOAD of money RIGHT NOW.
They're fine financially, and they're damn fine as a company who brings out great games I love to play.
Post by: nemo_83 on January 12, 2005, 12:49:12 AM
Once MS and Sony commit virtual suicide releasing five hundred dollar super computers that have next next generation graphics along with present generation controllers the demographics will become more clear as Nintendo is seen as a gaming company for a type of gamer and not an age group.
Post by: Deguello on January 12, 2005, 01:41:59 AM
Post by: majortom1981 on January 12, 2005, 02:41:36 AM
1. There marketing stinks. The reason why gta and games like that are selling well is because the commercials and the games are thrown if your face every day.
IF Nintendo got a better marketing strategy they will do a lot better. THats their main problem. Not the games and not the system.
2. OTher companies not marketing their gamecube games. Of course a 3rd aprty game will do bad if you do not advertise for it. IF ea or another company wont advertise it Nintendo should.
To Sum it up: The problem with Nintendo is their marketing. THats it Not Their hardware and not their software. I bet if you saw a commercial every day from now until the next loz release it will sell millions. Nintendo should start marketing it now. Like have weird vague commercials for it in movie theaters. Like a saying the darkness is comming . Then slowly build up from there.
Post by: joshnickerson on January 12, 2005, 03:42:10 AM
Oh yeah, right, Nintendo's failing, whatever you say. But last time I checked they were still pulling in solid profits. Which I've always understood is the OPPOSITE of failing. I don't care what place they're in anymore, as long as they keep making games, I couldn't be happier. Most Nintendo fans aren't DENYING anything, we just don't care about sales and that crap. It's the state of the industry today that leads you to believe that if a game doesn't sell a million copies on launch day, it's a collossal failure. That's just bulls***. Leave that to the business people to worry about. Let's just go back to playing games.
What really makes me mad is these a$$hat Xbox/PS2 fanboys that say they want Nintendo to die horribly and leave the console buisiness, but then in the same breath say they want Nintendo to develop games for THEIR system. So in reality, they're just jealous of the games we have. Of course, they're too stupid to realize that for the price of two really crappy Xbox games they could buy a Gamecube and play something GOOD.
Sorry for the nasty rant.
Post by: Ian Sane on January 12, 2005, 06:33:57 AM
"Right now" is the key part of that sentence and the whole reason that Nintendo is in trouble. Sure they make profit now but how can they in the future if every gen their market share shrinks? If they sell less each time eventually the profit bubble is going to pop and Nintendo is going to be stuck in a money pit they can't get out of it.
Let say your selling a product. The first year you sell 100 products and make a profit. And then next year you sell 50, and then 25, 12, 6, 3, 1. Eventually at some point you can't make a profit if you sell too few products. That's Nintendo. Every generation a huge chunk of their userbase jumps ship to some other console and they don't get too many new ones to replace them. That's a sinking ship. It's like a sheer fluke they can make a profit with that sort of negative consumer relationship. Eventually even the most hardcore fan is going to get sick of the same crappy scenario and is going to bail. Nintendo's market share doesn't necessarily need to grow but it at least needs to stabalize.
Thinking entirely in the present is exactly Nintendo's problem. Not looking towards the future is why the N64 used cartridges. Nintendo didn't realize that decisions based on the market in 1994 didn't apply in 1995. Thinking in the present is why the Cube is offline because in 2001 it didn't make a difference but it does make a difference in 2005 and will make an even bigger one around 2008.
Post by: Savior on January 12, 2005, 07:56:05 AM
Post by: The Omen on January 12, 2005, 12:54:29 PM
Quote
Oh yeah, right, Nintendo's failing, whatever you say. But last time I checked they were still pulling in solid profits.
Honestly, who gives a sh!t? I certainly don't get a piece of the profits. Sure, it's nice to see Nintendo will be around a long time. But the way they're going, they'll be languishing in last , at least in the U.S., for a long time. The reality is I no longer care about their profits. Third parties don't care either. And that's the problem. I now own my GC just for Nintendo games. I shouldn't have to buy another console for everything else. And that's the route their headed. If you're fine with toeing the company line of "Nintendo makes the most money and I if they have to Americanize then I'm out", more power to you. But that is a poor business move. Americanize doesn't mean give up what they do. It means expand into other genres. Hell, Nintendo doesn't need to do this themselves. I said this many times , and it's true. They can act just as Disney acts. Portray the clean image and let their other studios do the dirty work. And it's a rather easy transformation. What's so bad about that?
Post by: Hostile Creation on January 12, 2005, 01:12:03 PM
Post by: FFantasyFX on January 12, 2005, 01:59:42 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Deguello
The worst part is that this article is so poorly written and ill-thought. I mean, reading negative press is one thing. Reading negative press that looks like it was written for the IGN forums is another.
Deguello: The article posted on forums and the one that Kent actually wrote are not the same. Since you can't copy/paste from PDF, some dimwit loosely transcribed the original article. The content is practically the same, but the tone is miles apart. Kent's real article is polished, lucid, and less alarmist. Compare paragraph #3:
Forum Version:
As Microsoft entered the console wars, a lot of people asked, “Can
the market support three competitors?” The answer seems to be,
“Yes, but the guy who comes in last always dies.”
PDF Version:
When Microsoft entered the videogame hardware fray with XBox, the wheels of fate began to turn. History says the market will support three consoles for a while, but the company that sells the least amount of units eventually faces radical change.
The PDF version can be found at www.vgtm.com. If you didn't like the ideas behind the article posted here, you probably won't like the ideas in Kent's real article either, although he does illuminate and explain certain points better. But at least his real article doesn't come across like it was written by an elementary school kid.
Post by: The Omen on January 12, 2005, 04:37:50 PM
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Y'know, Nintendo is making changes. They are, for the most part, addressing these issues. But most people expect the change to take place now, rather than the future, which is pretty backwards logic, since that's what you're accusing Nintendo of (thinking of now and not the future). They are improving, but it's not going to be resolved come tomorrow.
I do believe they're trying, but I'm not so sure they know exactly what they're trying for. The Revolution can change their image in one hot minute. Especially here in the U.S. If they make it APPEAR to be the coolest thing ever, and have the games, it'll fly off shelves. I don't think they're in such bad shape that the casual fan will ignore a great system just because it's Nintendo. In fact, I think despite what a lot of people say, deep down they really like Nintendo, but it's just not the cool choice anymore. However, if they F it up this gen, I'll have a real hard time believing they'll ever 'get' it..
Post by: WesDawg on January 13, 2005, 06:26:24 AM
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If you're fine with toeing the company line of "Nintendo makes the most money and I if they have to Americanize then I'm out", more power to you. But that is a poor business move. Americanize doesn't mean give up what they do. It means expand into other genres. Hell, Nintendo doesn't need to do this themselves. I said this many times , and it's true. They can act just as Disney acts. Portray the clean image and let their other studios do the dirty work. And it's a rather easy transformation. What's so bad about that?
I agree with this. Let NOA or some other American company with no Nintend- in their name make sports games and FPSs for ya'. Make 'em great too. As much as people like Halo and Madden, it doesn't seem like they would be hard to top. There are plenty of developers who would love to make 'em too, and in the end, people will buy a console for a great Football game or shooter or for GTA. That's just kinda the facts in the modern market. They need to market the Revolution as having the best graphics and being the most powerful thing ever too. Who cares if its 'true'. It hasn't been true for anyone else who's said it. That's what marketing is all about. I think Reggie is gonna be pretty good at that though.
Post by: boggy b on January 16, 2005, 06:10:42 AM
Post by: MaleficentOgre on January 16, 2005, 06:26:45 AM
Post by: Savior on January 16, 2005, 08:15:51 AM
Post by: NightfallInfernal on January 16, 2005, 08:47:45 AM
Post by: boggy b on January 16, 2005, 10:53:12 AM
Not to mention, not every Western-style game in the world is a mindless cash-in or quick money-maker. Most of my favourite games aren't even made in Japan. I have no problem whatsoever with Nintendo making more 'Western' games.
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 16, 2005, 10:59:14 AM
You mean besides the fact that those two games, while great, haven't sold as well as the kiddddeh Wind Waker and Mario Party in the U.S.?
No-one is denying that Metroid Prime is good, but now everyone wants them to stop making them because that would mean 'Americanizing'
What the hell? Noone said that...Noone has a problem with companies like Retro and SK making "Americanized" games, since that is what they are...Having Ninty make in-house "Americanized" goods is the thing I (and others) do not want...
Post by: Deguello on January 16, 2005, 11:10:20 AM
It seems that those sort of people don't want Nintendo to make all these "Americanized" "mature" games. They already do at times. They want Nintendo to make nothing but those games. And they won't be happy if that happens either.
Post by: Uglydot on January 16, 2005, 12:11:19 PM
Post by: boggy b on January 16, 2005, 01:26:44 PM
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You mean besides the fact that those two games, while great, haven't sold as well as the kiddddeh Wind Waker and Mario Party in the U.S.?
Since I don't have any sales figures to hand, I can't check that what you're saying is true. The closest I have to it are the lists on users.ign.com of the most owned games. Not exactly the best source in the world, but still reasonably accurate:
1. Metroid Prime 2 Echoes
2. The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker
3. Resident Evil 4
4. Metroid Prime
5. Super Smash Bros. Melee
6. Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door
7. Mario Kart: Double Dash!!
8. Super Mario Sunshine
9. Tales of Symphonia
10. Mario Power Tennis
According to that list, second party 'American' style games are among the most owned (i.e. best selling) GCN games around. Now, like I said, my point never was that Nintendo should stop making 'Japanese' games and only make 'American' games. My point is that increasing the number of them will increase profits. Is that such a difficult concept to grasp? Hell, Nintendo don't even have to make them themselves, as long as they get the exclusivity.
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What the hell? Noone said that...Noone has a problem with companies like Retro and SK making "Americanized" games, since that is what they are...Having Ninty make in-house "Americanized" goods is the thing I (and others) do not want...
Why? That makes absolutely no sense. If Nintendo themselves had made Prime, it wouldn't have been a bad game. In fact, people would have applauded Nintendo as having made an excellent game. Like I said, people want to avoid critiscizing Nintendo so much that they will not make sense to do so.
Post by: Dirk Temporo on January 16, 2005, 02:56:08 PM
Very off topic: Boggy B, are you a member of a forum called Infoceptor or a forum called BlizzLink by any chance?
Post by: MaleficentOgre on January 16, 2005, 03:25:26 PM
Post by: Myxtika1 Azn on January 16, 2005, 03:52:17 PM
So, a game is an 'American' styled game because it was developed in America? So if Shigeru Myamoto came to the US to produce the new Zelda game, does that make it 'American'? Silicon Knights developed MGS: The Twin Snakes. Does that make it 'American'? (I know SK is in Canada, but still). Keep in mind that BOTH of these western companies had to consult heavily with the Japanese companies on these games.
Now, was Metroid Prime 2: Echoes developed in America? Yes. Was it an 'American' styled game? No.
Post by: The Omen on January 16, 2005, 04:29:41 PM
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Now, was Metroid Prime 2: Echoes developed in America? Yes. Was it an 'American' styled game? No.
Wrong. It absolutely is. Japan in general shuns first person 'shooters'. You can say all you want that Metroid isn't a shooter, but it looks like one, and in many instances plays like one. The fact that there have been two Metroid games for the GC should already show you they're americanized,as historically, the Metroid series sells a lot more in America.
Post by: Savior on January 16, 2005, 06:37:36 PM
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Ninty make in-house "Americanized" goods is the thing I (and others) do not want...
Well thats not what Steven Kent wants. Kent wants Nintendo to add more American developers that would make American Style games. So you actually agree with the article then?
Post by: Myxtika1 Azn on January 16, 2005, 11:06:29 PM
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Originally posted by: The Omen
Wrong. It absolutely is. Japan in general shuns first person 'shooters'. You can say all you want that Metroid isn't a shooter, but it looks like one, and in many instances plays like one. The fact that there have been two Metroid games for the GC should already show you they're americanized,as historically, the Metroid series sells a lot more in America.
Is that so? What are the many instances that you are referring to? Maybe you're talking about the the times where you have to fight Space Pirates which, if I remember correctly, is only a small percent of the game.
I don't know of any first-person games that have boss fights the way that two Primes do. I'm not saying that there aren't any. I'm just saying that I do not know of any. Of the 3rdperson games that I've played, there are no boss fights at all. If there are, are there more depth in the battles than in Prime? Hell, even fights against minor Prime enemies is more in depth than other games.
As I was trying to say before, I don't care if the game is in first person. The gameplay is still 100% Nintendo, that makes it an Japanese style game and not American.
Post by: KDR_11k on January 17, 2005, 05:49:49 AM
Post by: Noble~Feather on January 17, 2005, 05:56:00 AM
This guy is an idiot. Really.
GBA obsolete? Pffft.
I've heard the name Steven Kent before though... where does he work?
Post by: boggy b on January 17, 2005, 07:50:02 AM
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Originally posted by: Noble~Feather
... Worldwide, Xbox is in third... and Microsoft actually loses money with every one that's sold... they are EASILY in 3rd place. I'd love to see Microsoft die the next generation. >
No, XBox is beating GCN now. GCN was outselling XBox at the end of 2003. We're now at the end of 2004. For several months this year, XBox had overtaken PS2 in the US and Europe.
Post by: Noble~Feather on January 17, 2005, 08:02:33 AM
Post by: matt oz on January 17, 2005, 08:13:44 AM
I don't understand how so many people can comment on an article they so obviously have not even read...
Post by: boggy b on January 17, 2005, 10:38:08 AM
Sega Dreamcast: 9,000,000
Sony Playstation 2: 73,000,000
Microsoft Xbox: 16,000,000
Nintendo Gamecube: 15,500,000
http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=14306
Not by much, but XBox are in second.
Post by: Myxtika1 Azn on January 21, 2005, 11:47:17 AM
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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Myxtika: Metroid as a series never appealed to the Japanese. Even back in the days of 2d the Metroid games sold much better in the US than in Japan. From what I've heard the Japanese don't like open ended gameplay and prefer more strict "rails" in their games. In the west it's the other way around as long as you're able to do all kinds of silly stuff with your freedom (i.e. no consequences).
Metroid's open-endedness (is that a word?) is the same as Zelda's. Both games have places that you cannot reach until you get an item from somewhere else. Zelda is also very popular in Japan and sells very well, so I don't think open-ended gamepay is the probem.
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on January 21, 2005, 12:01:47 PM
Post by: The Omen on January 21, 2005, 07:02:59 PM
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Is that so? What are the many instances that you are referring to? Maybe you're talking about the the times where you have to fight Space Pirates which, if I remember correctly, is only a small percent of the game.
I don't know of any first-person games that have boss fights the way that two Primes do. I'm not saying that there aren't any. I'm just saying that I do not know of any. Of the 3rdperson games that I've played, there are no boss fights at all. If there are, are there more depth in the battles than in Prime? Hell, even fights against minor Prime enemies is more in depth than other games.
Understand, I'm not saying Metroid IS a FPS, I'm saying it appears to be a FPS, and in some instances, a few, as you pointed out, it is.
Appearance is all that matters in this world, unfortunately.
Post by: KDR_11k on January 21, 2005, 09:00:58 PM
Post by: couchmonkey on January 09, 2007, 10:09:53 AM
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1. Abandon the ‘belle of the ball’ mentality.
I think Kent had the right basic idea here. It was time for Nintendo to admit it had made a lot of mistakes. Interestingly, Nintendo came to that conclusion even harder anybody else: not only did Nintendo conclude that it made a lot of mistakes, it concluded that even trying to beat Sony and Microsoft was a mistake.
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2. Forget the bottom line.
...
That is a nearly steady drop of 50 percent from one generation to the
next.
The typical Nintendo response to this is something along the line of
their console business always remaining profitable. It’s a good and
persuasive response. Even as Sony strangled Nintendo in all three world
markets in the last year of the original PlayStation, Nintendo managed
to make money with N64 while Sony leaked like a sieve.
The problem is that if Nintendo’s share of the market keeps getting
smaller, the next generation will not be profitable.
The sentiment is correct, and I have to admit I strongly agreed with Kent on this point when I first read the article - Nintendo needed to do something about its shrinking marketshare. What Kent, myself, and most other people failed to predict was that Nintendo would find a way to improve it's marketshare without sacrificing the bottom line. Nice work.
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3. Know your market and stick to it.
Kent is totally wrong and right on this point. Not sticking to old markets has turned out to be a boon for Nintendo, however, Kent is right in the "know your market" sense. I think Nintendo has put a lot of thought into reaching out to the new markets and is reaping the benefits. One could also argue that Nintendo's "market" is the all-ages/family "market" and Wii attacks that market head-on.
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4. Americanize, Americanize, Americanize
The bottom has dropped out of the Japanese video game market. It
shrank by one-third in 2001 alone.
Ooopsie. This turned out to be Kent's most incorrect suggestion, and it also demonstrates just how much Nintendo DS surprised everyone and turned the industry around. Non-gaming is the new gaming in Japan, and it's spreading to other territories. Reading this quote and looking at the initial sales figures, it's clear that Wii is going to own Japan.
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5. Keep doing what you do right
As angry and pessimistic as some gamers have become about Nintendo,
other insiders believe that Nintendo is doing many things exactly
right. “Nintendo is listening to a good mixture of customers and game
developers,” says Richard Doherty, research director of
Envisioneering.
This section is a bit of a mixed bag. Doherty's comment above seems to be right on the money, and Kent goes on to point out how staying the course with Pokemon in spite of critics that said it was a fad paid off. Sounds like exactly what Nintendo is doing with DS and Wii.
Then he goes on to say that Wind Waker's style was a great idea and creates two different Zelda series: a lighthearted one and a more adult one...starts to seem like a bit of rambling to me. I guess his point is that when Nintendo gets it right, it gets it really right, and that's true.
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6. Stop with the mid-course corrections and hold to the basics
What did Sony and Microsoft do that was so brilliant with the launches
of their first console systems? Nothing. But even when things went
wrong, they kept to their game and that made a difference.
I think GameCube had problems straight from the start, and that's what Kent is noticing here. Nintendo was still a bit stunned from Sony handing N64's arse to Nintendo on a platter, and GameCube was Nintendo's mixed-up reaction to that: It's a purple lunchbox with the best survival horror games. Nintendo refocused itself since then.
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...The same thing has happened with GBA. First GBA SP’s clamshell
design was to make it more adult-friendly. Then DS materialized, and
GBA SP turns out to have been a kids system all along.
Nintendo needs to pick a strategy and stick to it; and in no area is
that more important than in handhelds...
This is Nintendo's early "three pillars" rhetoric getting mixed up with Nintendo's actual strategy. The strategy was to come up with ways to sell DS to all kinds of new audiences by taking advantage of its new interface, and it worked. GBA was kept on the market to supply Nintendo with money while it tried to get DS off the ground, and to give Nintendo a fallback point if the experiment failed. In the end, Nintendo's strategy worked brilliantly.
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7. Either do Revolution right or don’t do Revolution at all
...
First, it’s time for Nintendo to discover the Internet...
Done. Some people aren't satisfied, but let's be honest: if anything, online gaming is going to be secondary to the Wii interface in terms of success.
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...Next, it’s time for Nintendo executives to listen to what their
customers tell them. People like pretty graphics. People want the same
games with better graphics. Nintendo executives say they want
Revolution to be as revolutionary as DS. Fine, but make sure the
graphics are hugely improved...
LOL. I know there are still graphics advocates out there, but DS sales have proven once again that they're totally irrelevant to a handheld, and so far Wii sales prove that they're not relevant to home consoles either.
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...Not everyone agrees with this. Richard Doherty compliments Nintendo
for not trying to “create a super computer in a $300 game box.”
This, he says, is what will separate Nintendo from Microsoft and Sony...
That Richard Doherty is a smart guy. Anybody know who he is?
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...The truth is that if good old “Madden NFL” looks better and plays
better on PlayStation 3 and NextBox, Maddeneers are going to buy those
systems. And, for the record, “Madden NFL 2004” was the best
selling game of 2003...
Okay, so he couldn't have known that it was going to play completely different on Wii.
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...Since that is not going to happen, Nintendo needs to launch on time
with good software and a strong proprietary library. If Microsoft
launches in 2005, Nintendo should launch in 2005 as well...
I kept advocating the earliest possible launch and I still think it would have helped a little, but due to Wii's totally different take on video games, the launch timing was not that important.
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...Finally Nintendo needs to have enough hardware at launch. Avoid
shortages—real or trumped up—and fill the channel...
Kent's right from the "you need as much supply as possible" perspective - that was a big problem for PS3, and it may have cost Sony some Christmas sales. However, shortages are typical for system launches, and given that Wii seems to have a relatively good supply, the shortages can't be that bad of a sign.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 09, 2007, 10:55:03 AM
Post by: UncleBob on January 09, 2007, 12:13:27 PM
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Originally posted by: Procession
Madden and porn are two words that should NEVER be used in same sentence.
heh... heh...
Post by: willie1234 on January 09, 2007, 06:29:34 PM
gamecube didn't even sell out on launch day did it? I don't remember any shortages - are you talking about other regions?
as to Kent's launching at the same time as MS, I think Nintendo was right to wait out Sony. They would have just gone farther to copy Nintendo if given the chance. They already did, but had to shoe horn motion sensing into their system.
I was/am surprised by the Wii shortages though. Maybe it is selling much better than predicted, but I would have thought that by using hardware similar to the gamecube the production would have been faster.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 09, 2007, 08:00:51 PM
Post by: Galford on January 10, 2007, 12:52:51 AM
Holidays 2007 will be the real test for Nintendo.
If Nintendo can find a solution to Halo 3 and MGS 4 the Wii will do well.
If not expect by 2008 the Wii to suffer the same fate as the GC.
Note: Edited for grammar.
Post by: Nick DiMola on January 10, 2007, 01:42:52 AM
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Originally posted by: couchmonkeyQuote
4. Americanize, Americanize, Americanize
The bottom has dropped out of the Japanese video game market. It
shrank by one-third in 2001 alone.
Ooopsie. This turned out to be Kent's most incorrect suggestion, and it also demonstrates just how much Nintendo DS surprised everyone and turned the industry around. Non-gaming is the new gaming in Japan, and it's spreading to other territories. Reading this quote and looking at the initial sales figures, it's clear that Wii is going to own Japan.
...Quote
...Next, it’s time for Nintendo executives to listen to what their
customers tell them. People like pretty graphics. People want the same
games with better graphics. Nintendo executives say they want
Revolution to be as revolutionary as DS. Fine, but make sure the
graphics are hugely improved...
LOL. I know there are still graphics advocates out there, but DS sales have proven once again that they're totally irrelevant to a handheld, and so far Wii sales prove that they're not relevant to home consoles either.
These are my two biggest complaints with game journalists in general. The americanization of videogames is probably one of the worst things that can happen to gaming. Bizarre japanese games that make their way into America are probably the #1 thing keeping me interested in gaming. Xbox and the PS2 Americanized the hell out of gaming and look at the offerings on those systems. Shooters, sports and cookie-cutter racing games.
I hope the raging hard-on game journalists have for graphics is lost this generation. Sure graphics are important but art direction is far more vital (See Zelda: TP). If the Wii sees the same success as the DS I think Nintendo may keep the upper hand this generation and slow down the race to the next generation a bit. This may also lead to some more creative games because designers aren't as sharply focused on making the graphics better.
Post by: couchmonkey on January 10, 2007, 04:16:07 AM
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Originally posted by: Galford
I said it before and I'll say it again.
Holidays 2007 will be the real test for Nintendo.
If Nintendo can find a solution to Halo 3 and MGG 4 the Wii will do well.
If not expect by 2008 the Wii to suffer the same fate as the GC.
I agree that holidays 2007 will show us a lot more about who's winning, but I think Nintendo should not be concerned with MGS 4 or Halo 3. The whole point of Wii is to stop competing with those guys and start doing what's right for the Wii audience. Granted, a great FPS would be perfect for the Wii, but the point is that it's good for Wii and Wii players, not for beating Sony and Microsoft.
If DS was trying to pull off better 3D games than PSP and nothing else, it would be losing right now. Instead it sought ways to satisfy its audience and now it's the most successful system Japan has ever seen and it's starting to explode everywhere else, too. The only huge DS application that really "needs" 3D is Nintendogs. Pokemon, New SMB, Brain Training, and Animal Crossing all have 2D gameplay.
To say DS and Wii are exactly the same is a bit wrong, but the similarities are striking and I think the same strategy will work for both.
Post by: Hostile Creation on January 10, 2007, 05:33:40 AM
Honestly, he's a prick.
Post by: Ian Sane on January 10, 2007, 06:44:08 AM
Nintendo surprised everyone because they did something so odd that no one could see it coming. Still I'm iffy about the plan. Not on how well it will do for Nintendo but how well it will do for me. Yeah the DS is huge. But it's still my least favourite Nintendo system thus far except for the Virtual Boy. Nintendo is being successful by churning out cookie-cutter sequels for the fans and non-games to attract the general public. Well at least those cookie-cutter sequels are pretty damn good, even if they're derivative. Still to me Nintendo has sold out and compromised their principles which was a key thing I didn't want them to do in order to get their market share back on track. It seems in the past whenever anyone stated their idea for how Nintendo could come back often cries of "you want Nintendo to be Sony" came out. Usually this wasn't warranted as the idea seemed to be that providing variety and doing things competently (all things Nintendo did do on the NES and SNES) was somehow not Nintendo-like. Well in the end Nintendo didn't literally become Sony but they did turn their focus to casual gamers.
I still maintain that Nintendo's problems were almost entirely due to them having their heads up their asses for the last ten years and screwing up that which was seemingly impossible to screw up. Thus they could have made a decent comeback by not doing so much stupid stuff. I also maintain that any half-decent console could kick the sh!t out of the PS3. If Sony made the same mistakes with the PS2 that they're doing with the PS3 the Gamecube as is would have beat it. Sony is finished and, much like Nintendo's fall and Atari's before that ,most of it is their own doing.
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on January 10, 2007, 07:10:24 AM
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Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
Steven Kent is wrong, big surprise. Anyone arrogant enough to make broad assumptions like that is bound to be wrong.
That's a pretty broad assumption.
Post by: Rhoq on January 10, 2007, 07:19:43 AM
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Yeah the DS is huge. But it's still my least favourite Nintendo system thus far except for the Virtual Boy. Nintendo is being successful by churning out cookie-cutter sequels for the fans and non-games to attract the general public. Well at least those cookie-cutter sequels are pretty damn good, even if they're derivative. Still to me Nintendo has sold out and compromised their principles which was a key thing I didn't want them to do in order to get their market share back on track.
Funny, the DS is among my top favorite consoles of all time. I agree with you to a certain extent on the sequels. Nintendo definitely has "sequelitis", however - there have always been sequels across all Nintendo consoles since the NES. Sure it's become more widespread over the last few years, but sometimes it's just smart business to build on something the consumer is familiar with than to take a risk on a completely new IP. If Nintendo had the largest installed user base, I think it would be much easier for them to be able market fresh, new, original ideas. Until that happens, it's easier to churn out a sequel starring characters most people are already comfortable with.
Post by: Nick DiMola on January 10, 2007, 09:34:10 AM
I agree with Rhoq though of Nintendo had a larger market share and more stability they could start cranking out new IPs without worrying so much about their bottom line. Keep in mind that Nintendo is a publicly owned company and the stock holders have some say in what Nintendo does. Stock holders at this point realize Nintendo sequels sell, thusly encourage the company to produce them.
Post by: Nick DiMola on January 10, 2007, 09:34:11 AM
Post by: Deguello on January 10, 2007, 01:20:00 PM
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Nintendo is being successful by churning out cookie-cutter sequels for the fans and non-games to attract the general public.
What else can they make Ian? I mean seriously, you are making it unacceptable for them to create anything at all with assy statements like this, giving your inclination against trying Nintendo's truly original titles in favor of bitching that Nintendo doesn't make any truly original titles. Any game that breaks the mold is considered a non-game or something. Any game that DOES follow a formula is called a "needless sequel," whatever that means. Hell what kind of game do you WANT anyway? It seems you want, lesse... sequels... but with different characters... and the gameplay has to have new elements without rehashing AND without straying from the original formula. How is this even possible? The only games I can think of like that are Drill Dozer and Chibi Robo.
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Nintendo surprised everyone because they did something so odd that no one could see it coming. Still I'm iffy about the plan. Not on how well it will do for Nintendo but how well it will do for me.
Man it's so great that the entire forum had to endure your pessimistic bitching about Nintendo's market position for all these years, so that when things finally are looking up and every appears to be going Nintendo's way you can stop bitching and- Oh, you just turned your focus elsewhere, to your own personal preferences. So all the bitching was for naught, and now we get a new round with a different flavor.
I mean seriously? The DS is your LEAST favorite? Jesus man, it has EVERYTHING you bitched about over the years. Original titles? Check. Cool sequels? Check. New control schemes? Check. OLD control schemes? Check. Market success? big check. 3rd parties? check. Online? Check. 3rd parties online? Check. Critical reception? Check, they even had to eat crow to do it after buttering up the PSP. Public perception? It's sold out everywhere, they love it. Respect in the gaming world? It has. Respect in the NON-Gaming world? Has that too. What the hell's left for them to accomplish? Or is it your least favorite because you really can't bitch about it without almost universal disagreement?
Is this really all about your personal opinion? I mean if it is, that's fine, I just wanted to know why I had to bear it all in the form of "advice" to Nintendo on how the save their marketshare. But if it is your opinion, here's a phone, call someone who cares.
Post by: TrueNerd on January 10, 2007, 06:31:54 PM
I was simply going to tell Ian to play some Elite Beat Agents and realize all is well in the world of the DS, but Deg took that message to a whole other level.
The DS is the first Nintendo system since the SNES where my favorite games for the system are a pretty equal balance of 1st party and 3rd party games. That's a great sign in my book, especially considering that my favorites on N64 and the Cube were at least 90% 1st party games.
As for Kent and his advice, he was right on about some of them. He said Nintendo needed to find a game plan and stick to it, and they've done that. I'd say that this blue ocean initiative has worked rather well these last two years, no? I'd say he was also right about Nintendo abandoning their belle of the ball attitude and their focus on the bottom line, and Nintendo's done that too. It's also helped that Nintendo has stopped sucking ass when it comes to marketing these past couple of years.
However, some of the advice is rather contradictory. On one hand, he wants Nintendo to do what they do best, but on the other, he wants them to Americanize. Huh?
Really, Nintendo DID a number of things Kent suggested, did the opposite of Americanizing, and they're currently in a better position then they've been in in years. Meanwhile, Sony is in the worst position they've ever been in since they came into this industry. I don't think those two things are coincidental. We'll see how long this lasts, but things look good for Nintendo. Really good.
Post by: Ian Sane on January 11, 2007, 05:38:55 AM
From the get-go my focus was the same. Nintendo makes great games but owning a Nintendo console lately has been rough. Sure you get great Nintendo games but the third party support sucks. And you're often denied a lot of cool features and options because Nintendo either neglects certain things or outright avoids them. Plus their weak market share gives them less influence in the industry and games have gotten worse as non-gaming companies like Sony have increased their influence. Plus while they make a profit their market share keeps shrinking and ideally they have to turn that around sooner rather than later before things totally go to crap and Nintendo goes under. In short I like Nintendo but they're in trouble and if they can turns things around it will not only ensure that they continue to make the great games they do but it will also improve things for all Nintendo console owners.
Nintendo improving their market share by focusing on non-gamers threw a monkeywrench in the whole thing. I didn't expect it because to me the whole concept of targetting people that are not interested in games at all is thinking outside the box which I wasn't doing. You know it's a unique idea because no one else but Nintendo was planning on doing it. The inherent problem with that is while it fixes the market share problem and ensures that Nintendo will exist for the foreseeable future they'll exist as a different game developer than the one that I wanted to continue to exist. It seems to have shifted more to my personal opinion because I seem to be in the minority. Others don't seem to be as turned off by this or they don't notice the difference or if they think like I do they left Nintendo years ago or they're such dedicated Nintendo fans that their tastes change according to whatever Nintendo makes.
I think Nintendo has lost a big part of what has made them great and things are just going to go downhill as people get sick of the cookie-cutter sequels and novelty of dumbed-down non-games wears off. It's all recent enough that it isn't that big of a deal yet but I think it will be. It's like when your favourite comdey show starts not being as funny but is still watchable for a few more years until you don't like it anymore and when you look back you can notice when things slipped.
Post by: vudu on January 11, 2007, 05:52:39 AM
QuoteAh, Deg doing what Deg does best.
Originally posted by: Deguello
...
Post by: MarioAllStar on January 11, 2007, 05:53:36 AM
Post by: SixthAngel on January 11, 2007, 08:16:53 AM
Post by: Kairon on January 11, 2007, 09:04:19 AM
Any analysis that merely assumes a continuation of current trends is, in my opinion, logically deficient, poorly thought through, and dangerous if followed.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: MarioAllStar on January 11, 2007, 09:25:22 AM
I too wish for a game to capture me in the way that early Mario and Zelda games did, but I just don't think it is possible. In reality, this might have less to do with the quality of the games and more to do with the memories I have associated with them. Within the last couple of years, I played both A Link to the Past and Link's Awakening for the first time. I can recognize that these are great games, but they do not have the same magic as the original Legend of Zelda does for me.
My main complaint about games these days is that flashy graphics and sounds make games harder to develop. At worst, this can translate into games that may be visually stunning, but lacking in the gameplay department. To see Nintendo say, both with the DS and Wii, that the focus should be on new experiences over graphical upgrades makes me very happy.
Post by: IceCold on January 11, 2007, 09:26:59 AM
Post by: vudu on January 11, 2007, 09:30:41 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: MarioAllStar
Yes. Ocarina of Time is the first one, right?
Post by: MarioAllStar on January 11, 2007, 10:58:51 AM
Yeah, The Legend of Zelda was my first Zelda game. As a young kid, I spent a lot of my time playing Mario, Zelda, and Duck Hunt. I didn't beat Mario or Zelda myself back then, but I'm sure my older brothers did. When I play Zelda now, it can feel a little bit dated, but it is just filled with memories and gives an inexplicable feeling. Likewise, I also have fond memories of Ocarina of Time (my second Zelda game).
Post by: Nephilim on January 14, 2007, 05:24:07 AM
they make the freakin money back anyway
Post by: denjet78 on January 14, 2007, 06:26:10 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: DeadlyD
well the americanize thing is true, if nintendo is making billions now a year, why cant they spend 100k on a excusive like sony or microsoft, which will end up selling a million copys and increase market share
they make the freakin money back anyway
If Nintendo tried to get into a bidding war over an exclusive with Sony and MS, they'd lose every time. They don't have the resources to fight a protracted battle like that. The only reason the entire industry hasn't completely gone to putz is because Nintendo doesn't do business like Sony and MS.
Post by: Khushrenada on January 14, 2007, 09:04:25 AM
Post by: Kairon on January 14, 2007, 11:30:24 AM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: MarioAllStar on January 14, 2007, 11:34:57 AM
Ok, it doesn't always work like that, but I still don't think Nintendo needs to send out money hats.
Post by: denjet78 on January 14, 2007, 12:17:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: MarioAllStar
Nintendo doesn't need to compete on that level. The Wii is selling very well and the user base will only increase in time. With so many people who own a Wii, surely publishers will recognize there is plenty of money to be made with the Wii (and DS).
Ok, it doesn't always work like that, but I still don't think Nintendo needs to send out money hats.
I'd actually be ashamed of them if they did, which puts me in a tight spot because how did the whole Capcom 5 thing get started? Was it really just reciprocal in regards to the whole handheld Zelda thing they had going? It most likely was knowing the boat loads of cash that they made off of the deal and also why the Capcom 5 was allowed to fall apart. If there was a solid deal with direct cash changing hands most likely Nintendo would have locked them down to ensure that what ended up happening didn't. But if the deal was more open, as in if Capcom was happy with the profits from the Zelda loan that they might throw a few exclusives Nintendo's way but things ended up just devolved from there I absolutely wouldn't have any problem with it.
Still though, there is that nagging feeling that maybe, just maybe...
...
Nah.
Post by: Magik on January 21, 2007, 02:30:41 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Galford
I said it before and I'll say it again.
Holidays 2007 will be the real test for Nintendo.
If Nintendo can find a solution to Halo 3 and MGS 4 the Wii will do well.
If not expect by 2008 the Wii to suffer the same fate as the GC.
Note: Edited for grammar.
Totally agree with you.
Holidays 2007 will be 1st MAJOR deciding factor as to how ALL 3 consoles turn out. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that holidays 2007 will essentially be armageddon for all 3 console makers, and will probably be the greatest time to be gamer EVER.
Microsoft and Sony will definitely have at least 2+ AAA titles ready for the holidays so Nintendo must have something ready. The more and more I think about it, I'm starting to really think that two out of the big three titles - Mario Galaxy, Smash Brothers Brawl, Metroid Prime 3 - will be held off till the holidays solely to combat Microsoft and Sony's big titles.
Post by: wandering on January 21, 2007, 02:36:42 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: denjet78Quote
Originally posted by: MarioAllStar
Nintendo doesn't need to compete on that level. The Wii is selling very well and the user base will only increase in time. With so many people who own a Wii, surely publishers will recognize there is plenty of money to be made with the Wii (and DS).
Ok, it doesn't always work like that, but I still don't think Nintendo needs to send out money hats.
I'd actually be ashamed of them if they did, which puts me in a tight spot because how did the whole Capcom 5 thing get started? Was it really just reciprocal in regards to the whole handheld Zelda thing they had going? It most likely was knowing the boat loads of cash that they made off of the deal and also why the Capcom 5 was allowed to fall apart. If there was a solid deal with direct cash changing hands most likely Nintendo would have locked them down to ensure that what ended up happening didn't. But if the deal was more open, as in if Capcom was happy with the profits from the Zelda loan that they might throw a few exclusives Nintendo's way but things ended up just devolved from there I absolutely wouldn't have any problem with it.
Still though, there is that nagging feeling that maybe, just maybe...
...
Nah.
What's wrong with money hats? How is Nintendo paying Capcom for an exclusive game any different than them paying IBM for an exclusive chip?
Post by: ThePerm on January 29, 2007, 07:47:03 AM
Post by: Kairon on January 29, 2007, 10:42:49 AM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on January 29, 2007, 11:14:01 AM
Post by: Kairon on January 29, 2007, 05:56:43 PM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: couchmonkey on January 31, 2007, 09:31:00 AM
On Capcom, I'm sure Nintendo gave Capcom a moneyhat for the Resident Evil series, or RE4 would have gone multiplatform a lot sooner. I'm not sure about the Capcom 5 - I used to think they were voluntary and Capcom changed its mind later on, but who knows?
Crystal Chronicles was a public moneyhat - part of Nintendo's super-special joint funding project, don't remember the name.
Twin Snakes was basically a moneyhat - Nintendo/Silicon Knights did almost all of the work and Konami probably got a big chunk of the profits.
Personally I don't mind money hats when they're above the table. It's when I hear rumours of secret deals - such as Microsoft supposedly paid some publishers to skip GameCube for multiplatform games - then it bothers me.
Post by: ThePerm on January 31, 2007, 09:48:03 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on January 31, 2007, 09:51:19 AM
I think setting up a few deals is in general a good idea but, f*ck, don't be so stupid when setting them up. Though I think some of the lousier Cube third party deals were a result of Nintendo being so out-to-lunch regarding third party support in the first place. They probably thought their deal with Konami was a good deal and that a port of Metal Gear Solid 1 would satisfy the fanbase's request for a Metal Gear game. Kind of like how they misinterpret third party support as "having third parties work on Nintendo franchise games that would have been made anyway".
Post by: Galford on January 31, 2007, 01:24:14 PM
Well it's good that Nintendo made up with SE when they did.
If Nintendo didn't give a GBA license could you imagine Sony getting SE exclusively for the SE?
I know SE supported the Wonderswan Color, but that system wasn't even as powerful as the GBA.
Unless DQ9 flops the PSP is dead in Japan.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 19, 2010, 08:30:00 AM
Once the PSP rolls in, Nintendo will make less money.
Umm, actually the opposite will be true. I know, because I'm speaking to you from the future, lol.
Post by: Stratos on January 19, 2010, 10:07:04 AM
Post by: Monteblanco on January 19, 2010, 10:42:33 AM
LOL, time travel posting.
Yes, but particularly funny article to read in retrospective.
Post by: NWR_Lindy on January 19, 2010, 10:52:39 AM
I've heard stories that Sony's hardware people never talked to their software people, and when looking back over the last 6 years, that's absolutely true. It's like the PSP and PS3 were made in some sort of alternate universe where consumers had unlimited funds to spend on game hardware, and then they were teleported back to our dimension where Sony's software and marketing divisions actually had to make software for them and sell them.
Post by: Ian Sane on January 19, 2010, 12:45:30 PM
Quote
Man, was the PSP a flop or what?
Actually I'm pretty surprised it still exists. It had an okay launch but after that it just lost all momentum. I didn't think it would last even three years. But it's still in stores and games are still being made for it. Yes, it's a flop but it's still one of the very few non-Nintendo portables to last this long. I think the Game Gear is the only other one.
At the very least Sony could probably learn from this and do better with a new portable. I don't think they actually WILL since they just launched that stupid PSP Go. But they COULD.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 19, 2010, 12:59:02 PM
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 20, 2010, 09:16:42 AM
QuoteMan, was the PSP a flop or what?
Actually I'm pretty surprised it still exists. It had an okay launch but after that it just lost all momentum. I didn't think it would last even three years. But it's still in stores and games are still being made for it. Yes, it's a flop but it's still one of the very few non-Nintendo portables to last this long. I think the Game Gear is the only other one.
That's only because of Sony's incredibly deep pockets. The PSP hasn't really picked up any momentum, but its continued along steadily thanks to Sony's vast wealth behind it. I think its probably like the original Xbox where it never made any actual profit, but the point of it was just to serve as a wedge for Sony to get their foot in the door. If that was their goal, then the PSP could be looked at as a success and the PSP2 could build off that.
But I honestly don't think that was their goal. I think Sony really intended to throw Nintendo out of the Handheld market entirely (or at least push them to a distant second), because that is after all what they did with the PS1, right? And if that is the case, then the PSP has been a huge disappointment and failure for them. PSP GO is a no go, and the UMD movie idea was a laughable joke that went nowhere. I think they really had high hopes for it, just as they did/do with the PS3, but Sony was in for a rude awakening when reality shattered their arrogance. This is what happens when you get too arrogant and think you are invincible.
Post by: jakeOSX on January 20, 2010, 11:45:12 AM
this is a good one to read in retro-spect. nintendo came out strong (i cringe at 'on top' because that implies they 'won') and is again in a good position.
but let's not forget, nintendo was always a leader. even in those down times EVERYONE was looking and thinking "ok, what is nintendo going to do next?" their influence has never diminished.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 20, 2010, 09:24:40 PM
Miyamoto himself said back then that there's nothing the PSP can do that couldn't be done on any other system, and he is absolutely right. If you own a PS2 then you already have a system that can play virtually all of the games the PSP can (because most PSP games are ports from the PS2). The PS2 costs less, and has a larger library of cheaper games. Why mess with an expensive handheld with a tiny screen, poor battery life, and gimped controls when you can own a PS2 plus a DS for not much more money and get so much more value instead.
Post by: Adrock on January 21, 2010, 12:26:53 AM
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 21, 2010, 01:00:43 AM
Well, supposedly, Sony is still missing the point because the PSP2 is apparently somewhere between the Xbox and 360 in terms of processing power. We can probably assume that it'll probably include a camera, mic, touchscreen, and accelerometer too but still be one step behind Nintendo. It's scary what the Tegra 2 (all but confirmed apparently) can do, but that's not what's going to make Nintendo's next handheld special.
I think in the next generation of handhelds we will see all the competitors pretty much on par in terms of their capabilities. The PSP is a good deal more powerful than the DS, but in the next race the DS' successor is likely going to have HD capability and probably be on par with the consoles of today. The PSP2 will also be HD and be powerful too. It might even be MORE powerful than the DS2, but it won't really matter much. The gap between the handhelds of the next gen won't be as much as it is today, and so that will be pretty much irrelevant.
So we will have a PSP2 and DS2 which are pretty much evenly matched for all intents and purposes. The PSP2 will almost certainly have a touchscreen and probably some sort of motion controls, but the DS2 will also have that.
So what it will come down to is who has the better games. As long as the DS2 is backwards compatible with the DS it will have a huge advantage right off the bat. This is a serious problem the PSP2 is going to have to deal with, because the PSP2 would have to encumber itself with a problematic UMD drive that breaks down and eats up batteries in order for it to maintain backwards compatibility, and in the end backwards compatibility on the PSP2 won't count for much because except for a handful of exceptions it lacks quality exclusives that people would actually want to play on a successor.
So this is going to be a huge dilemma for Sony in the next race, and I can't see how they can have any hope of winning. So what we will probably see is a repeat of this generation's race with Nintendo being way in the lead (as usual) and the 2nd place competitor being far behind.
Of course, Sony might not even be 2nd place next time around. The Iphone is likely to fill that spot, and of course Microsoft and other companies probably have their own intentions. So who knows?
Post by: KDR_11k on January 21, 2010, 04:23:20 AM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 21, 2010, 05:11:59 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on January 21, 2010, 06:11:02 AM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 21, 2010, 01:11:21 PM
Now if the DS2 had a TVout then we can start talking about producing some HD resolutions, but I doubt that's gonna happen.
Post by: SixthAngel on January 21, 2010, 01:49:54 PM
800x400 isn't HD.
HD doesn't have a standard definition since people always fight over "true HD."
Since it is a term made up recently to sell tvs how about we call this what it was called ever since I was small, high resolution.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 21, 2010, 05:17:11 PM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 21, 2010, 05:32:50 PM
The ZuneHD uses the Tegra chip and it does this exact thing. DS2 is rumored to be using the Tegra2 and will most likely scale it down a bit, but it should still be more functional than the Tegra 1.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 21, 2010, 10:22:57 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on January 22, 2010, 02:45:30 AM
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 22, 2010, 06:19:11 AM
Projectors eat power for breakfast.
They sure do, which is why it would probably make a lot more sense to have it plugged into an outlet while you use it that way. If you're in a building and using it as a projector, then odds are you will have access to an electrical outlet, so that shouldn't be an issue.
If you're playing your handheld in a car or on a bus then you aren't going to have a wall to project onto anyway, so it doesn't matter in those instances.
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on January 22, 2010, 02:34:05 PM
Post by: Louieturkey on January 22, 2010, 04:34:01 PM
The biggest problem with the projector idea is that there's no way you could hold the thing still enough while playing a game, even without waggle controls.This was my thought as well. And if it has an accelerometer inside, it'd be even worse.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 22, 2010, 11:10:55 PM
The biggest problem with the projector idea is that there's no way you could hold the thing still enough while playing a game, even without waggle controls.
I was thinking you would set it down on something and then use some detachable controller thing to play it with.
