Topic: Mario Isn't Missing

[NWR_Lindy]

Note that I said:

"Nintendo themselves"
"console IP"
"party game or fitness"

I was specifically talking about console games that aren't Wii Sports, Rhythm Heaven, or games of that ilk.  New IPs on handhelds have never been an issue for some reason.

Xenoblade is developed by Monolithsoft, and they're owned by Nintendo, but eh...not really Nintendo themselves creating that game.  And hell, they really didn't even want to release it in NA.

Nintendo's internal console teams have either been on the party game/fitness wagon or churning out sequels/spin-offs to existing console IPs for a looooong time...welcome to 2012.

EDIT

Don't get me wrong they have been doing a great job recently with Kid Icarus, Pikimin and many more.  Or maybe create a new IP all together.

My point exactly.  Nintendo, CREATE A NEW IP FOR YOUR CONSOLES THAT ISN'T A PARTY GAME, FITNESS GAME, FRANCHISE SPINOFF, OR SOME OTHER BLUE OCEAN WHATEVER-YOU-WANT-TO-CALL-IT.

Just a new, traditional console IP.  kthnxbai

[Chocobo_Rider]

@Lindy

I love ya like a brother, but those are some pretty stringent qualifiers.

Xenoblade, mothatrucka.  Xenoblade.

[Luigi Dude]

Xenoblade is developed by Monolithsoft, and they're owned by Nintendo, but eh...not really Nintendo themselves creating that game.

Monolith Soft is owned by Nintendo which makes it a first party internal studio.  So yeah, Xenoblade was Nintendo themselves making it since it was made by a studio they own.

[Ian Sane]

Xenoblade is the one blonde in an army of brunettes and NOA didn't even want to release it here!  It's a new IP and it's not some dumb casual game and it's exactly what everyone who felt let down by the Wii wanted and NOA had to have it's arm twisted to release it.  It didn't fit the safe, predictable, insta-hit model that Nintendo, and specifically NOA, has moved to.

I used to see Nintendo as a company that defined themselves with new ideas.  Redundant or unessential Nintendo titles seemed rare and now I feel like I can skip practically ANY Nintendo title and I'll never truly miss out on something special.  But I was naive.  I'm old enough to remember when the NES was new and Nintendo didn't have many IPs to milk.  They were creative out of a necessity and now they don't have to be, so they aren't.  Now they have enough established IP to just stick to the same old thing, so they do.  Would they have done that back then if they could have?  It's hard to say for sure though I do find that Nintendo became more IP dependent when Iwata took over.  Is it the change of leadership or is that timing just a fluke and Nintendo was inevitably going to go this way?  Whenever I point out that Sony ironically is better at creating new IP these days the response is often that they have to because they lack the established IP Nintendo has.  Though what bugs me about that response is that it suggests that that is okay, like the only appropriate time to be creative is when it is necessary.  Anyway I don't know if my view of Nintendo and what the stood for was ever accurate or that they were only the way I thought they were out of necessity.  Though if THIS Nintendo is what they always were then I guess I never really liked them, but rather what they coincidently resembled.

I got sick of Mario in non-platform games a long time ago.  Now I don't care about him at all.  One problem is that Mario has always been so lazy with storyline and setting.  Every game you jump on Goombas and Koopas and defeat Bowser.  Yawn.  It's one of the WORST series to become formulaic because at least with other series you can tell a new story with existing game mechanics.  No one plays a Mario game to find out what happens next in the Mario epic saga.  Though I think NSMB is the true source of the problem.  Take those games out and Mario is not nearly so overexposed.  And NSMB is the series with more casual appeal.  The curse of the non-gamers continues.  Nintendo can't be a truly exciting or creative videogame company while appealing to that audience.

Different people like different things though.  I like it if each game in a series does enough new with the concept that every title is essential.  My brother likes to find a good gameplay model that works and just wants new levels for it.  I think my brother would prefer the NSMB model.  Though in the past I felt that enough companies did the cookie cutter thing that those that want that can find that with Capcom or EA and those that don't always had Nintendo.

I wonder if some of this is a result of Mario Sunshine and Wind Waker backlash.  In both cases Nintendo tried to do something new and it did not go over well.  But I would argue that it was just the specific ideas that didn't go over well, not the concept of trying new things (there was no backlash when Super Mario 64 or Ocarina of Time tried new ideas).  To have these so close to each other is bad timing and it might has spooked Nintendo into being less daring.  Twilight Princess in particular comes across as a the work of a company afraid to offend with change.  You try something new and sometimes it goes over well and sometimes it doesn't but that shouldn't discourage you from trying something new.  Other M doesn't suck because it did new things but because those specific new things SUCKED.  Metroid Prime did new things but those specific new things didn't suck and that game kicks ass as a result.  So pick up the pieces and try again.

[broodwars]

I won't defend Mario Sunshine (I never liked that game, due to lack of environmental variety and the decreased emphasis on exploration & player freedom), but I think the backlash from Wind Waker was both very temporary (the game seemed pretty widely beloved post-release) and mainly due to Nintendo not properly preparing us for the new look.  They put out the Spaceworld tech demo trailer at launch that showed a realistic Ocarina-style Link, and then they just went radio silent before suddenly showing actual Wind Waker gameplay with the new art style.  Had they not allowed the idea of that realistic Link in the tech demo to become the de facto art style in many players' minds, the change probably would have gone over just fine.

I also don't think their initial reveal trailer was terribly well-done, especially the very Looney Toons-esque bit at the end with Link swinging on a chandelier with the Moblins doing a Wile E Coyote routine in the air.  It set a tone that was goofier than the actual game, and Link's eyes just looked weird until they later tweaked them for the final version.

[Ian Sane]

Link looking at the camera and winking still makes me want to gag.  Everyone accuses you of being kiddy so you respond to that by taking the most anticipated game for your new system and turn it into a cartoon?  Could you self-sabotage yourself any more perfectly?

[TeaHee]

Isn't this as much a problem for the whole industry and not just Nintendo.  Pretty much everything produced is either a sequel or a game that is highly derivative of a popular genre.  There are very few new and innovative IPs across the various platforms.  The one place this doesn't hold true is small independent download titles, but for retail games everyone, not just Nintendo and Mario, is banking on established franchises to insure a profit.

[broodwars]

Isn't this as much a problem for the whole industry and not just Nintendo.  Pretty much everything produced is either a sequel or a game that is highly derivative of a popular genre.  There are very few new and innovative IPs across the various platforms.  The one place this doesn't hold true is small independent download titles, but for retail games everyone, not just Nintendo and Mario, is banking on established franchises to insure a profit.

To give Sony some credit, though, most of the franchises they've "banked on" this generation have been IPs new to this generation (Uncharted, Resistance, LittleBigPlanet, Heavy Rain, The Last of Us, Beyond: Two Souls, PSAS Battle Royale), and they've done quite a bit of backing independent studios on new IPs for PSN exclusives.

[Ian Sane]

This generation has been longer than the typical one.  So some of the more milked IPs might not have been as milked if there was a new generation of consoles to move to.  Sony seems to milk each IP for a generation.  As broodwars pointed out they've introduced a lot of new IP this gen.  Last gen they milked Ratchet & Clank (one of the few still getting sequels), Sly Cooper and Jak & Daxter, all of which were new for that gen.  In the PS1 era they milked Crash Bandicoot and Spyro who, again, were brand new for that gen.

Activision is the worst offender this gen and they just outright killed the golden goose in Guitar Hero and they treat Call of Duty like a sports game.  Last gen Rockstar would have been accused of milking GTA but this gen we've only gotten one console GTA out of them.  MS clearly milks the crap out of Halo, but Gears of War was a new IP this gen.  I love Capcom but they are the masters of milking something until it's dead.  SIX Mega Man games on the NES?  Come on!  Anything more than a trilogy is complete overkill.

[oksoda]

This week's episode of Connectivity is live, and we talk about this topic quite a bit. Take a listen if you want more!

[Urkel]

I see Lindemann is still being Lindemann.
 
"Xenoblade doesn't count. It's not by EAD."

[NWR_insanolord]

He could have phrased it better, but it's a fair point. Nintendo's core development teams have played it very safe. Newer studios like Retro and EAD Tokyo have been a bit more creative, but still stayed within established franchises. You have to go to a studio that Nintendo brought aboard just a few years ago to find a truly original title, which says something about how much of a priority that is for Nintendo.

EDIT: To get back on topic, though, and to be a bit more upbeat, yes, there have been a lot of Mario games recently, but they have been, for the most part, great. All four of the Mario platformers released in the last five years (Galaxy 1&2, NSMBWii and 3D Land) would be in my top five games in the series, alongside Mario 3. If they keep up that kind of quality I don't care how often they release them.

[Urkel]

As a first party, it's unfortunately Nintendo's burden alone to ensure the health of their platforms. That means releasing software that not only sells, but sells hardware as well. And Mario does just that.
 
As much as people like to talk up Sony's willingness to create new IPs, at the end of the day it doesn't do much to sell systems. Sony may be making new IPs like Gravity Rush for Vita, but it's not selling Vitas. And that will ultimately lead to less third party support, and possibly even the death of the platform.
 
Nintendo turned 3DS sales around with Mario, creating a healthy platform that (Japanese) developers are willing to support. So because Nintendo is "milking" Mario, you're getting a more diverse software library because the system will actually, you know, EXIST. The only reason Nintendo is releasing two Mario games so close together is to make sure it stays that way.
 
And this whole obssession with new IPs is stupid since it means that games like Kid Icarus Uprising "don't count" because it uses a few characters from a 25 year old game. The fact that it's a big budget "core" production with new content and fresh gameplay unlike anything Nintendo has ever made gets dismissed because of this.

[NWR_insanolord]

Actually, I'd count Kid Icarus Uprising as a new IP, because for all intents and purposes it is one. I'm kind of upset Sakurai's doing Smash for the next couple years, because I'd love to see another big, original game from him. He's one guy within Nintendo that really seems to want to go nuts and do something new, but now he's stuck doing the same old thing again.

[Kairon]

You people are only missing out on the full breadth of Nintendo goodness by not embracing innovation in genres outside of your comfort zones. <3 Wii Music.

[NWR_Neal]

Actually, I'd count Kid Icarus Uprising as a new IP, because for all intents and purposes it is one. I'm kind of upset Sakurai's doing Smash for the next couple years, because I'd love to see another big, original game from him. He's one guy within Nintendo that really seems to want to go nuts and do something new, but now he's stuck doing the same old thing again.

Follow what Sakurai's been saying about Smash. It'll be big and ridiculous. I have a feeling this new one might be a bigger change than most people think. Remember, he was thrust upon Brawl. Him and Iwata seemed to be on the same page at the outset of this upcoming one.