Topic: it depends on the day

[Nick DiMola]

Best movie ever? That's easy, Sin City.

[Kairon]

Quote
Originally posted by: wandering
I have a question for you, Evan. Why is art important? Is it so important that the amount of time and money we spend on it is justified? Wouldn't it have been better, if the hundreds of millions of dollars that went towards making the Lord of the Rings movies, had gone instead towards helping people who are starving and suffering?

Wow... wait... lemme make sure... nope, I'm in the real world, and haven't fallen into Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead...

I think that art has been shown to be an essential part of human experience. Of course, we don't need it to live or eat, but the way we perceive the world around us, and the way art helps us to abstract our experiences and come to some comprehension of them... doesn't it mean something that cavemen, instead of worrying 24/7 about all the prehistoric problems of their day, chose to make time out of their hunter-gathering 30-year life expectancy existence to make cave wall paintings?

Definitely, Maslowe's heirarchy of needs places food and safety at the bottom, most basic, most immediate needs, but after that comes more abstract concepts, culminating as creativity, morality, and other things more related to art. Actually, why eat or live at all if you only do so to survive at the most basic level, if you could never reach for anything greater? What would it be like to live life without EVER having seen something beautiful?

And then of course there's the whole argument that we shouldn't tear down an individual's work just because others are jealous and would rather their own lives be improved by someone else's energy and effort. Isn't that a basic question of freedom, that people are mostly free to dedicate their energies where they choose, whether that be games, painting, writing, or etc. instead of being harnessed by society as some sort of human factory, or some sort of human energy battery, stripped of individuality, only living to be used by others?  

[Ian Sane]

"One of my favorite films is The Shawshank Redemption =)"

This should be one of everyone's favourites.

The Big Lebowski is my favourite film.  Has to be.  It's just perfect.  It's the sort of film I would want to make and sadly never can because it already exists.  It's also full of great quotes.  "DUDE ARE YOU F*CKING THIS UP?!!"  It also introduced me to In-N-Out Burger so bonus points all around.

I remember liking Master and Commander but I didn't think was anything exceptional.  It was just a movie to me.  Well made and entertaining but I couldn't care if I never see it again and it probably wouldn't have mattered if I never did.  Sorry, Evan.  Though it's kind of one of those Oscar drama movies where everything is made very well and the writing and directing and acting is all fantastic.  Those films are enjoyable but tend to all blend together for me because every year studios release their "Oscar films".  So many dramas are good but only a few stand out to me.  Shawshank Redemption stood out to me while Forrest Gump, which beat it for best picture, is just there and I don't care if ever see it again.  Seabiscuit was good but it's Just Another Well Made Drama.  I should put a trademark on JAWMD.

I guess it's like a good shmup.  There are tons of shmups that are good and well made and fun to play but so many of these competent games are just there.  There's too many of them to get attached to all of them so only a few stand out for me.

[that Baby guy]

Ian, I think it's time you changed your avatar.  Got anything in mind?

[wandering]

Quote
And then of course there's the whole argument that we shouldn't tear down an individual's work just because others are jealous and would rather their own lives be improved by someone else's energy and effort. Isn't that a basic question of freedom, that people are mostly free to dedicate their energies where they choose, whether that be games, painting, writing, or etc. instead of being harnessed by society as some sort of human factory, or some sort of human energy battery, stripped of individuality, only living to be used by others?

I wasn't asking whether people should be forced to spend more of their time and resources on others, I was asking if people should choose to. Should I choose to help (not be "used by") other people who are dying of starvation and disease (people who want help not because they are "jealous" - but because they need it) more than I do now?

On the day the Wii launched, I spent hundreds of dollars on the Wii, games, and accessories. Should I have given all of that money to the Salvation Army lady who was standing outside the store, instead? You might say "no, because you need art." But I don't need Legend of Zelda or Trauma Center, or any other specific work of art, do I? Instead of playing Zelda, couldn't I have spent my time rapping freestyle with friends? Or enjoying/creating some other type of free (well, not free, because time is money - but cheap) form of art?

Shouldn't I spend less time and money on luxury and entertainment? Shouldn't we all? Wouldn't the world be a happier and better place if we did?

[GoldenPhoenix]

My favorite movie is the Green Mile. Also Master and Commander was a highly underrated movie.

[Khushrenada]

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Svevan changed his avatar.

I always liked Svevan because he kept his F-Zero avatar for so long but then he finally changed it to his self-portrait which was alright but not great. Fortuantely, Bloodworth (that blessed mod) forced Svevan to join the Blance Birthday party. Svevan wasn't too happy about that and in the ensuing fight, a DVD ended up lodged in his head. Ah, now the picture was perfect. And then when Bloodworth left, it seemed a fitting tribute that Svevan kept his specially designed Bloodworth avatar. But I guess change was inevitable. And I really can't hate Jimmy Stewart, my favorite actor.

Is the Jimmy Stewart from Veritgo?  

[Svevan]

Quote
Originally posted by: wandering
I have a question for you, Evan. Why is art important? Is it so important that the amount of time and money we spend on it is justified? Wouldn't it have been better, if the hundreds of millions of dollars that went towards making the Lord of the Rings movies, had gone instead towards helping people who are starving and suffering?

I have waited to respond to this question because my answer is specifically religious. So if this gets locked and you hate what I said, please e-mail me or write a blog or something; discussions like these need to happen.

Kairon started out with some good premises, bringing up Maslowe's hierarchy of needs, and placing morality as one of the abstract concepts that are dealt with after we fulfill the basic needs for ourselves. But truthfully, all of human experience is wrapped up in morality and ethics; we were created with design, and our needs for love, companionship, stimulation, friendship, entertainment, and everything else are born out of our created nature.

There are needs that are more important than others. The hierarchy is real, in that art comes late in the game. But it is still a need. Creativity (and the response to that creativity as an audience) is not some random genetic thing that occurred to us. It is part of our nature. Since everything is wrapped up in morality, we know (through various debatable means) that creativity is good.

Art appeals to us in the same broad "stimulatory" sense that an essay or history textbook appeals to us. It is an engagement of the mind. But art (of which entertainment is a form) is less intellectual; the aesthetic sense is a combination of beauty receptors, intellect, emotions, and feelings. That means art can appeal to our sense of justice and beauty at the same time (and in the same way). Art does add to a person in the same way a history textbook adds to our knowledge; good art is an engagement of our multi-faceted minds, and makes us better people. Art, like religion, affects the inner man, with outward consequences. The inner man needs help just as much as the outer man - spiritual death is maybe more important than physical death.

The needs of others are more important than our own needs; it is easy for a rich country like the U.S. to forget our responsibility to other people, both within our boundaries and outside. Art can become a God to us; self-improvement can replace cultural reform. Since we are created beings, and we are all governed by the same moral framework, our makeup should be diverse and holistic. We should see the act of creating art or receiving art in the same light as helping others and fighting for justice. All of these actions improve the world, we just have to balance them appropriately.  

[Hostile Creation]

Ah, movies.  I'm not going to type too much, in the fear that I'll get lost in discussion, but I'll just say that I like Peter Weir quite a lot.
I haven't seen enough of his stuff, particularly his early stuff like Picnic at Hanging Rock and the Last Wave.  I've seen The Truman Show, of course, which is fantastic.  The Year of Living Dangerously was good, but it didn't leave a lasting impression on me.  It felt like it had moments, but moments that failed to cohere.  On the other hand, Gallipolo is brilliant, easily one of my favorite war movies.  I love freeze frame endings (watching The 400 Blows, I wasn't sure I liked it until the very last moment.  That sealed it for me).  Dead Poets Society is a fine film, although perhaps a bit overdramatic.  I've yet to see Master and Commander, so I can't comment on that yet.
Of what I've seen, I think my favorite has to be Gallipoli.  Looking forward to seeing more of his stuff, though.

[wandering]

Quote
Originally posted by: Svevan

Quote
Originally posted by: wandering
I have a question for you, Evan. Why is art important? Is it so important that the amount of time and money we spend on it is justified? Wouldn't it have been better, if the hundreds of millions of dollars that went towards making the Lord of the Rings movies, had gone instead towards helping people who are starving and suffering?

I have waited to respond to this question because my answer is specifically religious. So if this gets locked and you hate what I said, please e-mail me or write a blog or something; discussions like these need to happen.

Kairon started out with some good premises, bringing up Maslowe's hierarchy of needs, and placing morality as one of the abstract concepts that are dealt with after we fulfill the basic needs for ourselves. But truthfully, all of human experience is wrapped up in morality and ethics; we were created with design, and our needs for love, companionship, stimulation, friendship, entertainment, and everything else are born out of our created nature.

There are needs that are more important than others. The hierarchy is real, in that art comes late in the game. But it is still a need. Creativity (and the response to that creativity as an audience) is not some random genetic thing that occurred to us. It is part of our nature. Since everything is wrapped up in morality, we know (through various debatable means) that creativity is good.

Art appeals to us in the same broad "stimulatory" sense that an essay or history textbook appeals to us. It is an engagement of the mind. But art (of which entertainment is a form) is less intellectual; the aesthetic sense is a combination of beauty receptors, intellect, emotions, and feelings. That means art can appeal to our sense of justice and beauty at the same time (and in the same way). Art does add to a person in the same way a history textbook adds to our knowledge; good art is an engagement of our multi-faceted minds, and makes us better people. Art, like religion, affects the inner man, with outward consequences. The inner man needs help just as much as the outer man - spiritual death is maybe more important than physical death.

The needs of others are more important than our own needs; it is easy for a rich country like the U.S. to forget our responsibility to other people, both within our boundaries and outside. Art can become a God to us; self-improvement can replace cultural reform. Since we are created beings, and we are all governed by the same moral framework, our makeup should be diverse and holistic. We should see the act of creating art or receiving art in the same light as helping others and fighting for justice. All of these actions improve the world, we just have to balance them appropriately.

That was helpful and enlightening, thank you.

edit: And thanks to you, too, kairon, for pointing me to that needs hierarchy.

[Svevan]

This Jimmy is from Vertigo. I may need to get more Jimmy in my avatar space soon.