Author Topic: Zelda Using Motion Sensor for Sword!  (Read 20454 times)

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Offline UltimatePartyBear

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RE:Zelda Using Motion Sensor for Sword!
« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2006, 09:49:48 AM »
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Originally posted by: Professional 666
Intuitive, yes, easier, not exactly.  You'll still have to be steady (comes with practice, like anything), and aiming reflected light is more about adjustment than point&shoot.  Hold the remote somewhat like the way Link holds a shield (sorta upright in front of your chest) instead of aiming at the screen.

For Link, it's about adjustment.  For the gamer, why shouldn't it be point and shoot?  I'm sometimes annoyed when a game presents a puzzle that should be easy to solve, but it's rather difficult to accomplish the solution due to the game's controls.  Removing the intermediate step between figuring out the solution to a puzzle and solving it when it should be trivial wouldn't bother me at all.  For example, once I figured out that I needed to shoot those eye switches with an arrow in Ocarina, why not take advantage of Link's perfect aim while Z-targeting instead of having to go through the trouble of aiming myself?  The action required to solve the puzzle in that case is so simple, that it might as well be simplified to the point of transparency.  I already figured it out, so let me move on.  But now I'm drifting off topic, and I'm sorry.

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Logically it's probably going to be gestures substituting buttons which is supremely lame.

I disagree.  I think this sounds great.  There is a place for a game that directly copies my movements, but Zelda ain't it.

Offline Smoke39

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RE:Zelda Using Motion Sensor for Sword!
« Reply #76 on: August 22, 2006, 10:18:29 AM »
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Originally posted by: PartyBear
For example, once I figured out that I needed to shoot those eye switches with an arrow in Ocarina, why not take advantage of Link's perfect aim while Z-targeting instead of having to go through the trouble of aiming myself?  The action required to solve the puzzle in that case is so simple, that it might as well be simplified to the point of transparency.  I already figured it out, so let me move on.

If they made it lock-on-able it would draw your attention too easily.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Zelda Using Motion Sensor for Sword!
« Reply #77 on: August 22, 2006, 10:21:35 AM »
"You could try renting the game off of one of those online rental places if you have a fear of leaving your house."

Well you do need to own a console to rent games for it.

I'll try the demo out for sure.  Like I'm going to pass up a chance to play the Wii if I see it at a store.

Offline vudu

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RE: Zelda Using Motion Sensor for Sword!
« Reply #78 on: August 22, 2006, 10:25:33 AM »
You could always go to Blockbuster and rent the system.  But then we're tredding into the "leaving your house" territory.
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Offline UltimatePartyBear

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RE:Zelda Using Motion Sensor for Sword!
« Reply #79 on: August 22, 2006, 10:41:43 AM »
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Originally posted by: Smoke39
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Originally posted by: PartyBear
For example, once I figured out that I needed to shoot those eye switches with an arrow in Ocarina, why not take advantage of Link's perfect aim while Z-targeting instead of having to go through the trouble of aiming myself?  The action required to solve the puzzle in that case is so simple, that it might as well be simplified to the point of transparency.  I already figured it out, so let me move on.

If they made it lock-on-able it would draw your attention too easily.

Only because of the annoying fairy.  If you had to actually look at it to lock on, that wouldn't be an issue.  Plus, simply hiding a switch somewhere in the room is pretty lazy puzzle design.  After the first one, which you have to figure out how to activate, the rest should be part of something more complicated, anyway.

Offline Smoke39

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RE: Zelda Using Motion Sensor for Sword!
« Reply #80 on: August 22, 2006, 11:44:54 AM »
Looking at it is basically the same thing as aiming at it.  Either that, or if they made it so you only had to look in its general direction then it would still attract your attention too easily.  And either way, if you could lock onto it, you'd realize pretty quickly that shooting it is what you're supposed to do with it.  And even regardless, the more you automate stuff like aiming, the closer and closer games come to glorified slide shows.
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Offline UltimatePartyBear

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RE:Zelda Using Motion Sensor for Sword!
« Reply #81 on: August 22, 2006, 01:00:23 PM »
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Originally posted by: Smoke39
Looking at it is basically the same thing as aiming at it.

True, but pixel-perfect aiming shouldn't be required when the challenge is supposed to be solving the puzzle with your mind, not your fingers.
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Either that, or if they made it so you only had to look in its general direction then it would still attract your attention too easily.  And either way, if you could lock onto it, you'd realize pretty quickly that shooting it is what you're supposed to do with it.

Is that a problem after the first time?  You'd already know to shoot it from experience.  I don't quite agree that letting you lock onto something gives a particularly strong hint what you should do with it.  There are other items in the game, after all.
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And even regardless, the more you automate stuff like aiming, the closer and closer games come to glorified slide shows.

Aiming is 100% automated during combat.  Is combat in Zelda just a slide show?  Besides, is the point of the puzzle to test your mind, or to test your thumbs?  I'm talking about removing things that get in the way of the game's purpose.  This was just the most obvious example I could think of.  Getting back to the question of reflecting light with a shield, what's the most intuitive use of the pointer?  To point it at the target to illuminate (essentially Z-targeting with the pointer, as in Link would face what you pointed at), or to relate it directly to Link's shield and move it until the shield lines up correctly?  Once the player figures out what to do with the shield and the light, isn't the problem solved?  Why make it difficult?  Just like the perfectly accurate aim, if you Z-target an Octorok and raise your shield, you can't help but reflect his attack right back at him.  It's completely automated.

Obviously, there's a line to be drawn somewhere.  I'd never suggest that once you figure out that you need to jump from platform to platform over the lava that you might as well be teleported to the other side.  I just think that there shouldn't be a discontinuity such as aiming being completely automated one moment and completely manual the next.  It may be that the sense of immersion is better with more manual control, and that might make it worth the trouble.  That would be one of the benefits of the Wii's controller if it turns out to be true, but with a joystick, it didn't really add to the immersion for me.  It didn't annoy me, either, contrary to how it probably sounds.  I was just trying to point out that the gameplay could stand to be streamlined in a few small ways.

To tie this back to the topic, Link's not going to mimic your sword swings exactly.  It'll probably be limited to jerking the controller, and then he'll slash or stab in that direction according to a programmed animation.  That is a good thing for this sort of game.  Zelda isn't a fencing simulation.  It's not an archery simulation, either.  The amount of realism in the controls has to be moderated by what makes the game fun and accessible.

Offline Smoke39

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RE: Zelda Using Motion Sensor for Sword!
« Reply #82 on: August 22, 2006, 02:02:51 PM »
Pixel perfect aiming isn't required; the target is considerably larger than a single pixel.

Making some lock-on-able and some not would be inconsistent, and mess with the player's expectations.  And if something is too far away to interact with in any way other than shooting it or playing a song at it, shooting it becomes a considerably more probably solution.

Combat is a more fast-paced and complex action than shooting a thing on the wall to open a door.  Under circumstances where you can, you aim manually.  During combat, you're focussed on strategy and movement, distracting you from such details as the fact that aiming is happening automatically.  That is, manual aiming is not a way to complicate out-of-combat aiming, but rather automatic aiming is a way to make in-combat aiming realistically feasible.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Zelda Using Motion Sensor for Sword!
« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2006, 02:22:53 PM »
"To tie this back to the topic, Link's not going to mimic your sword swings exactly. It'll probably be limited to jerking the controller, and then he'll slash or stab in that direction according to a programmed animation. That is a good thing for this sort of game. Zelda isn't a fencing simulation."

On that point I agree.  Zelda isn't about precise fencing.  But a gesture system is idiotic.  It's no different than button presses only it requires more effort from the player and is less accurate due to the wider range of actions to be interpretted by the console.  It's like having digital controls on an analog stick only much worse.  So it's pretty much the same and thus there's no point in having it from a creative point of view.  Motion control only makes sense when it does something that can't be done affectively (or at all) with a traditional controller.  A mere gesture based sword swinging system is a perfect example of a g!mmick.

I think they're screwed either way.  A gesture system is pointless and inferior but authentic sword swinging complicates things too much that it loses track of what Zelda is about.  They actually had a better idea (in theory) before with bow aiming.  I found riding and shooting ghosts in the N64 Zelda pretty awkward and that is something that could make use of the remote if done right.

Offline nemo_83

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RE:Zelda Using Motion Sensor for Sword!
« Reply #84 on: August 22, 2006, 03:58:52 PM »
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"To tie this back to the topic, Link's not going to mimic your sword swings exactly. It'll probably be limited to jerking the controller, and then he'll slash or stab in that direction according to a programmed animation. That is a good thing for this sort of game. Zelda isn't a fencing simulation."

On that point I agree.  Zelda isn't about precise fencing.  But a gesture system is idiotic.  It's no different than button presses only it requires more effort from the player and is less accurate due to the wider range of actions to be interpretted by the console.  It's like having digital controls on an analog stick only much worse.  So it's pretty much the same and thus there's no point in having it from a creative point of view.  Motion control only makes sense when it does something that can't be done affectively (or at all) with a traditional controller.  A mere gesture based sword swinging system is a perfect example of a g!mmick.

I think they're screwed either way.  A gesture system is pointless and inferior but authentic sword swinging complicates things too much that it loses track of what Zelda is about.  They actually had a better idea (in theory) before with bow aiming.  I found riding and shooting ghosts in the N64 Zelda pretty awkward and that is something that could make use of the remote if done right.



I agree that if it is prerecorded gestures then it is pointless but if they give you exact sword controls (Link's hand does what yours does) then it will make things much simpler than even using one button.  You won't have those Shenmue style "prss A now" moves for one thing.  Instead you would just get behind the character and swing at the weak spot (say the straps holding the armor on).  It is very simple.  

I've played a game before, years ago on much earlier technology, with sword controls.  It worked brilliantly (but there wasn't much else to the game, it moved along like a lightgun game).
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Offline UltimatePartyBear

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RE: Zelda Using Motion Sensor for Sword!
« Reply #85 on: August 22, 2006, 04:00:44 PM »
I think my point got lost in the middle of all the talk about aiming in particular.  Anyway, I just wanted to chime in one more time and say that I, for one, am excited by the idea of this new control scheme for Zelda.  I don't think you can really call a jerk to the right a gesture.  The only thing I've heard about the controls that I'd call a gesture is the quick spin required to do a spin attack.  I think of a gesture as being more of an abstract series of motions, like the mouse gestures in some browsers I've never bothered to try.  Regardless, I think there's a huge difference as far as immersion goes between simply pressing a button and swiping the controller to the left and seeing the on screen character swipe his sword to the left.  It isn't a 100% direct method of controlling the sword, but it's a very large step closer to it than pressing a button ever was.

Offline Smoke39

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RE:Zelda Using Motion Sensor for Sword!
« Reply #86 on: August 22, 2006, 04:51:56 PM »
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
A gesture system is pointless and inferior but authentic sword swinging complicates things too much that it loses track of what Zelda is about.

I don't think it matters either way.  Sword fighting in Zelda has never been about precise slashes, it's been about positioning yourself and timing your attacks correctly.  So either way, you wave the remote to attack instead of pressing A.  It's not like you have to perform precise or elaborate gestures to handle a simple slash.
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Offline Strell

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RE: Zelda Using Motion Sensor for Sword!
« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2006, 05:17:21 PM »
Zelda will be awesome.

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Offline nemo_83

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RE:Zelda Using Motion Sensor for Sword!
« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2006, 05:17:56 PM »
I think what is important about using the remote in this game is that it puts the sword in your hand and allows you the freedom to hit specific marks.

The old 2D sword fighting was like in 2D Metroid where you just hit the button, but these days Metroid is 3D and on Wii you will move Samus' arm all about.  The same is true for Zelda on Wii now, except it will go beyond just pointing and pulling the trigger.  

Sword fighting on Wii can best be equated with playing Tennis on Wii.  Just like hitting the ball in Tennis, you swing the sword at someone's head (a much larger target).  There is nothing complicated about that at all.  

Hasn't the spin attack always just involved holding a button down and then releasing it?  I don't think the remote is capable of detecting a 360 degree spin.
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Offline Smoke39

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RE:Zelda Using Motion Sensor for Sword!
« Reply #89 on: August 22, 2006, 05:23:19 PM »
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Originally posted by: nemo_83
I think what is important about using the remote in this game is that it puts the sword in your hand and allows you the freedom to hit specific marks.

Yes, if TP had been designed with the Wii in mind instead of GC.  Do you really think they'll actually change the game so much for the Wii version as to include stuff that would take advantage of such potential freedom?
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Offline Shecky

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RE: Zelda Using Motion Sensor for Sword!
« Reply #90 on: August 22, 2006, 05:25:49 PM »
New Laws:

Law 1) How majority of people think a game will control does not equate to how the game will actually control

I've seen folks cry, "told you so," when hearing the new Zelda/Sword news.  Thinking that their expectations of control have been meet... my question is how do you know?  Some folks think this way, others think some other way...

Bottom line:  Don't think schemes you spent an hour on will match those a developer may have spent days on.  In the end...

Law 2) If a developer succeeds, then a majority of people will be content with the available control scheme(s)

Law 3) No single control scheme satisfies all users, ever.

Edit: Spell check broke my words
Edit2: Remember TP was and continues to be a GC game in overall design choices.  Consider it a first generation "Wiimake".  Some of the design choices will add a nice feel to things, while some may feel like a cheap parlor trick.  (for example, from user accounts... I thought the bow setup at E3 was pretty cool - with the gesture and sound ... some folks may think otherwise)