Author Topic: Is Nintendo Right?  (Read 7153 times)

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Offline obscureownership

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Is Nintendo Right?
« on: June 08, 2006, 09:56:33 AM »
Okay, we know Nintendo's stance on the gaming industry today. It's been said by Iwata, Reggie, and many other corporate big heads at Nintendo, and that stance is, the gaming industry is breaking down and becoming less creative. I never gave it much thought because I thought it was completely obvious that today's games are lame compared to the games of SNES, until I read this article. This didn't make my mind change, but this made me realize. Have we gotten so big that we've turned into just another faceless industry, manufacturing the same crap just as Hollywood does? These guys seem to make me think so. Note their attitude towards Madden. These guys do not concern themselves with art, rather, but pushing money.

An industry having too much money can lead to all sorts of problems. (This is kind of where you get into social issues and political views). It's my stance that money has a tendency to make people lazy as hell, and now that publishers like EA no longer have to struggle with it, they are not motivated to produce top notch stuff. In fact, they don't feel the need to reinvent the wheel.

That's where the Nintendo DS comes in. Is it successful at what Nintendo is trying to do, as in, give developers more incentive to be a bit more creative, or is Nintendo fighting an already lost cause?  
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Offline Hostile Creation

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RE: Is Nintendo Right?
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2006, 11:35:44 AM »
There will always be creative individuals in money-making industries (successful or not), if it's based around a creative medium (music, gaming, film, etc).  For every knock-off crap Hollywood movie, there's an actual quality film (be it Hollywood budget or indie), and the same goes for games.  The industry is quite different in many ways, from the film industry that is.
Nintendo is the backbone of the creativity in the industry.  Lots of other developers are plenty creative, sure (not most, but many), but Nintendo is the most creative.  Not only do they create innovative hardware (allowing other developers to try new things, as well), but they make arguably the best games on the market.  They're the best for a variety of reasons, including brilliant game design and their tendency to ooze with creative energy.
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RE:Is Nintendo Right?
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2006, 12:25:13 PM »
I agree with Hostile Creation. Did you notice how many games came out so quickly near the end of 2005 for the PS2? and how many of them were crap? Exactly. Sony seemed to relax while smaller companies quickly made games that had the same gameplay as games that were already made. Same ideas, and few thing new. The Xbox seemed this way also, but it did give out more better games. Nintendo trys to stay on task, creating new ideas and gameplay for its customers, while microsoft and sony are just making a supped up version of their last creations for this new wave of systems. Also, both are adding extras,(dvd player, music player, ect.), to get more customers. This can be nice, but its not supposed to make up the entire reason for buying it in the first place. Sure Nintendo did make many bad games for the DS in the first year, and many critics agree, but this is understandable. They were trying something new that hasnt really been tried. This is why so many better games are now coming out, and will continue to come out.

So, overall, I believe Nintendo is changeing the entire premise of gameing. For the better.


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Offline Avinash_Tyagi

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RE:Is Nintendo Right?
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2006, 12:06:07 AM »
Well its my opinion that its because of Nintendo's influence in the industry that we haven't suffered another crash, even though they've been at the lower end of marketshare for a few years, their innovations and ideas have been incorportated into the systems and games found on the other consoles, not only that, they've helped to give rise to some of the better developers in the industry, both second and third party devlopers, many of the best games on the other systems are done by companies who got their start with Nintendo.

Offline couchmonkey

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RE: Is Nintendo Right?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2006, 05:11:55 AM »
Eh, I actually feel Nintendo is less creative than some other developers, but it has more consistent quality.  In the good old days of Dreamcast, I think Sega was innovating more than Nintendo is now.  Still, the company is good at it, no doubt.  Nintendo probably is staving off stagnation in this industry.

As for faceless games, they've been around forever.  Taking the Super NES as the example, how many average Looney Tunes and Disney platformers were there on that system?  I actually played and enjoyed a number of them, but they certainly weren't in the same league as Mario.  Then there were the Sonic knock-offs, the Zelda try-hards, the Street Fighter clones, not to mention all the mediocre super hero games that were basically Final Fight over and over again.  Super Nintendo was home to as much crap as any current system.  
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Offline Chode2234

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RE: Is Nintendo Right?
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2006, 05:53:27 PM »
The problem is that money making has begun to supercede the art itself.  That is when the industry looses its focus and begins to drift.  We see that now.  As with any creative industry there will be people with great and pure ideas, the challenge becomes finding ways to let these great ideas bubble to the top and become the next big thing.  With movies, any chimp with a DV camcorder and some friends can make a movie with a great idea; it is more difficult with video games.  The industry should remain profit driven (yes even MS), but needs to still foster creativity and not become too bogged down that the next big thing gets barried.  
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Is Nintendo Right?
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2006, 07:05:26 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: couchmonkey
Eh, I actually feel Nintendo is less creative than some other developers, but it has more consistent quality.  In the good old days of Dreamcast, I think Sega was innovating more than Nintendo is now.  Still, the company is good at it, no doubt.  Nintendo probably is staving off stagnation in this industry.

As for faceless games, they've been around forever.  Taking the Super NES as the example, how many average Looney Tunes and Disney platformers were there on that system?  I actually played and enjoyed a number of them, but they certainly weren't in the same league as Mario.  Then there were the Sonic knock-offs, the Zelda try-hards, the Street Fighter clones, not to mention all the mediocre super hero games that were basically Final Fight over and over again.  Super Nintendo was home to as much crap as any current system.


What developers do you think are more creative than Nintendo now? I honestly don't see it, especially with Sega's current downfall. Nintendo has constantly innovated, and changed the industry, with the only real exception being the GC era which didn't bring about any great innovation.
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Offline Kairon

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RE: Is Nintendo Right?
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2006, 07:42:55 PM »
Skit from my younger brother once I posed this question to him:

Quote


Person 1: "What company is more creative than Nintendo?"
Person 2: "Will Wright."
Person 1: "What? Will Wright isn't a company!!!"
Person 2: "...of course not! Will Wright is a GOD! Only a divine being could shine brighter than Nintendo! And Will Wright is that divine being!"



My only problem now is that this implies that EA contains more creativity in their halls than Nintendo.

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Offline Hostile Creation

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RE: Is Nintendo Right?
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2006, 07:44:02 PM »
I think some game developers are putting up a good creative front.  Their games are creative, but they're not really as creative as they seem.  Many games that seem creative don't have as much play value for me, I find.
I believe that different mediums should have different creative contexts, things that apply specifically to that medium.
For literature, we have style of writing, as well as a heavy emphasis on narrative development.
In film, you have cinematography and editing (both film and photography emphasize the importance of visual composition, but there are subtle differences).
Music?  The sound of the song, the way the music makes you feel.
And they mix.  We have music in film, but it's only a lesser factor.  Some songs have lyrics (akin to poetry), but the lyrics are trivial, compared to the music.
Likewise, games have parts that have artistic qualities (music, visual style, narrative devices, etc), but the most important part, what should be the hub of all the creative energy, is the gameplay mechanics.  I think the way a game plays is the defining creative aspect of gaming, as well it should be.  So, a game that is more fun is more creative.

And Nintendo makes the games that are the most fun (some will say GTA, Halo, Final Fantasy, but some will say that Fight Club is the best book ever written, so some opinions simply don't count).  Therefore, they are the most creative.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Is Nintendo Right?
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2006, 09:35:34 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
Skit from my younger brother once I posed this question to him:

Quote


Person 1: "What company is more creative than Nintendo?"
Person 2: "Will Wright."
Person 1: "What? Will Wright isn't a company!!!"
Person 2: "...of course not! Will Wright is a GOD! Only a divine being could shine brighter than Nintendo! And Will Wright is that divine being!"



My only problem now is that this implies that EA contains more creativity in their halls than Nintendo.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com


Will Wright is quite talented, but I'm not quite convinced that he is one of the best game developers ever. He basically does simish games like Spore, and the Sims with few exceptions (not to say they are bad because Spore looks like alot of fun and I am a big Sims fan). Honestly though I think Nintendo's diversity (specifically Miyamoto) and creativity is superior, they are basically the ones that gave us action/RPG, redefined 2D platformers, revolutionized 3D gaming control, gave us Pikmin (which is really unique), and zonky stuff like WarioWare.  The only company that I felt rivaled Nintendo in the past few years was Sega with Dreamcast, when it came to innovation and creativity, but that Sega is sadly dead.
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Offline Infernal Monkey

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RE: Is Nintendo Right?
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2006, 03:26:51 AM »
The problem now is it just simply takes too long to get into a game. Consoles have always been dominated by average to crap games, except they used to offer instant gameplay. And often if you'd dig around for a bit, you'd enjoy yourself. Now an average to crap game can take up to an hour to even begin thanks to everyone trying to find ways to fill more than 100 MB on a DVD-ROM. You've got awful FMV introductions, you've got controls that are more complex than they should be and you've got unskippable training missions because of that.

The gameplay's still there, it's just hidden, and nobody has the time or effort to wait to play what should be a simple time waster. Even Nintendo's fallen victim to this with the GameCube. Look at Mario Sunshine, you can't just jump on in and instantly start playing like you could with all the previous Mario games (Mario 64's whopping ten second intro excluded). There's rubbish video clips, awkward controls to learn, and in the end, it didn't do a damn original thing for platformers at all. It just became another face in the un-user friendly modern day platform gaming crowd.

See the DS? See storylines thrown away in favour of pure gameplay? See controls return to being extremely easy and fun? See those sales? See that upcoming Wii thing? Yeah.

Offline Kairon

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RE:Is Nintendo Right?
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2006, 09:07:48 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: VGrevolution
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
Skit from my younger brother once I posed this question to him:

Quote


Person 1: "What company is more creative than Nintendo?"
Person 2: "Will Wright."
Person 1: "What? Will Wright isn't a company!!!"
Person 2: "...of course not! Will Wright is a GOD! Only a divine being could shine brighter than Nintendo! And Will Wright is that divine being!"



My only problem now is that this implies that EA contains more creativity in their halls than Nintendo.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com


Will Wright is quite talented, but I'm not quite convinced that he is one of the best game developers ever. He basically does simish games like Spore, and the Sims with few exceptions (not to say they are bad because Spore looks like alot of fun and I am a big Sims fan). Honestly though I think Nintendo's diversity (specifically Miyamoto) and creativity is superior, they are basically the ones that gave us action/RPG, redefined 2D platformers, revolutionized 3D gaming control, gave us Pikmin (which is really unique), and zonky stuff like WarioWare.  The only company that I felt rivaled Nintendo in the past few years was Sega with Dreamcast, when it came to innovation and creativity, but that Sega is sadly dead.


Well, in truth, perhaps it's just downright ridiculous to say that one person is more innovative than another. It seems that there are MANY innovcative forcesd, and each force is innovative in their own way.

And even if we could define what makes someone more innovative than another, does it really matter? Is their a prize? An award? It would turn out rather childish don't you think?

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A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline IceCold

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RE: Is Nintendo Right?
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2006, 11:39:17 AM »
Quote

There's rubbish video clips, awkward controls to learn, and in the end, it didn't do a damn original thing for platformers at all
If there's one thing I can't stand for, it's people saying that Sunshine had awkward controls :P. Its controls were brilliant, and the camera isn't as bad as people seem to think.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Is Nintendo Right?
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2006, 12:05:44 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
Quote

Originally posted by: VGrevolution
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
Skit from my younger brother once I posed this question to him:

Quote


Person 1: "What company is more creative than Nintendo?"
Person 2: "Will Wright."
Person 1: "What? Will Wright isn't a company!!!"
Person 2: "...of course not! Will Wright is a GOD! Only a divine being could shine brighter than Nintendo! And Will Wright is that divine being!"



My only problem now is that this implies that EA contains more creativity in their halls than Nintendo.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com


Will Wright is quite talented, but I'm not quite convinced that he is one of the best game developers ever. He basically does simish games like Spore, and the Sims with few exceptions (not to say they are bad because Spore looks like alot of fun and I am a big Sims fan). Honestly though I think Nintendo's diversity (specifically Miyamoto) and creativity is superior, they are basically the ones that gave us action/RPG, redefined 2D platformers, revolutionized 3D gaming control, gave us Pikmin (which is really unique), and zonky stuff like WarioWare.  The only company that I felt rivaled Nintendo in the past few years was Sega with Dreamcast, when it came to innovation and creativity, but that Sega is sadly dead.


Well, in truth, perhaps it's just downright ridiculous to say that one person is more innovative than another. It seems that there are MANY innovcative forcesd, and each force is innovative in their own way.

And even if we could define what makes someone more innovative than another, does it really matter? Is their a prize? An award? It would turn out rather childish don't you think?

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

I did not say any one person was more innovative (creative yes). My point was that Will Wright is quite limited in what he does, most of his games are variations on the Sim genre (granted he helped create that, but still he is not a very diverse game developer). It is my feeling that Sega was once the most innovative company back in the DC days, but that Sega is dead for the most part. As of now there seems to be only a handful of companies trying to innovate, Nintendo, and perhaps the team that made Ico (though they are fairly unproven with only two games). Yes there will be innovative and creative games coming out here and there, but there is little consistency to this, and without Nintendo I'm afraid the game industry will fall flat on its face.

Speaking about Mario Sunshine, I started up the game a few days back and got right back into it. The game is a ton of fun, with lots of things to do and the controls are a snap. It even seems tighter than Mario 64 when it comes to control, not to mention the fact the game has a ton of cool boss fights, and the I do love the level designs even if they have a tropical theme. There are other reasons why I love the game so much, but I'm not going to bore you. Let's just say it is my favorite 3D platformer of all time and leave it at that.  
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Offline Kairon

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RE:Is Nintendo Right?
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2006, 01:00:06 PM »
Well, I wasn't aiming those comments at anyone in particular, lol, just so you know.

It's just that I, personally, have come to define innovation broadly.

I credit DMA as coming up with one of the biggest innovation implementations this generations. (I recall thinking at the end of the 32/64-bit era that DMA was a company that Nintendo should buy) I've recently become convinced by Cliffy B. (when I sat in on an E3 panel) who's making Gears of War for the X360 that innovation can happen in small things too, the example he used was the Halo loading screen. For Halo, I also think the infinite lives thing is ingenious because it removed the difficulty restriction that's kept lots of casual gamers from enjoying FPS's. And of course, I don't like Perfect Dark Zero but I wonder if there could be something there with a switching of first and third person viewpoints... perhaps the Metroid Prime series would've been a better example to use. I really loved Pac-Pix because, well, my ugly demented pac-mans rocked. And as much as Baiten Kaitos sucked, I'm wondering as to how breaking down the fourth wall with the player as a "spirit" that the main character consults on important decisions...I'm wondering if there's something to be mined in that. Also, though I have to suppress the gag reflex whenever I think of modern-day Final Fantasies, I wonder as to how exactly their new battle system will work out.

Also, you absolutely CANNOT rule out Will Wright because he's one of the few people who has accomplished the near-impossible: he's figured out a way to tell romance and interpersonal relationship stories in videogames. The Sims is ASTOUNDING because of this, other games tell stories about conflict, The Sims tells stories about love, jealousy, hate, friendship, responsibility, and addiction, plus much more. Spore will tell the story of our entire universe! Statistics are usually made up, but at an E3 panel I heard one of the speakers say that 90% of the stories teenage girls tell each other are romances. This is why Sims and Nintendogs have made inroads into the female demographic, these are relationship based games that SHOW these elements, not tell them (like RPGs). Also, Second Life is experimenting with a compeltely player-run environment in which personality and individual panache is what you're measured by, and where EVERYTHING is player-designed, such that players can engage in any sort of activity they wish to if they can program it in, or go browsing in virtual shopping malls. I actually hate Second Life, but it has to be acknowledged: the game actually has virtual hookers...who make real life money by selling in-game cash ! (another thing Second Life tracks is the exchange rate between in-game currency and real world money; Linden Labs makes money by running these conversions of this instead of hiding them like other MMORPGs).

Not to mention I know so little of European or Korean/Chinese developers. The next MMORPG I'm looking at trying is from one of the Scandinavian countries because their world is built upon socio-political dynamics, seems to lack combat (or at least de-emphasize it heavily), and tie the players into a community in a world that must be maintained and where they collectively devote resources to dynamically expanding it. Korean companies have struck upon a free-game-but-buy-uber-or-decorative-items model that makes them the big bucks and still feels free-to-play and relaxing: games like GunBound for example, and these games reel in youthful demographics that are much-desired by advertisers. Heck, I played NEOPETS at one time! NEOPETS!

... I personally believe that innovation takes place in so many places, big and small, bit-by-bit or all-at-once, successful or unsuccessful, that to claim that one entity is more innovative than another is to subconsciously discount all the other sources of innovation we have, and to make yourself blind to all the little innovations and contributions that make up games.

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A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline Hostile Creation

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RE: Is Nintendo Right?
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2006, 02:28:19 PM »
All of Will Wright's games are essentially the same, in many ways.  With Miyamoto, we see a broad range of completely different game styles, from platformer (Mario) to adventure (Zelda) to strategy (Pikmin), to name a few.
Will Wright has made SimCity (simulation), The Sims (simulation), and Spore (simulation, although damn it's the coolest simulation ever).  Don't get me wrong, I have tremendous respect for the guy, and he's done some great stuff.  But it's like comparing Tarantino (crime film after crime film) to Kubrick (who's done a variety of excellent movies).

Interesting, Will Wright apparently lived in Louisiana for a while.  Never would've guessed.
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Offline Kairon

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RE:Is Nintendo Right?
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2006, 02:33:30 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
All of Will Wright's games are essentially the same, in many ways.  With Miyamoto, we see a broad range of completely different game styles, from platformer (Mario) to adventure (Zelda) to strategy (Pikmin), to name a few.
Will Wright has made SimCity (simulation), The Sims (simulation), and Spore (simulation, although damn it's the coolest simulation ever).  Don't get me wrong, I have tremendous respect for the guy, and he's done some great stuff.  But it's like comparing Tarantino (crime film after crime film) to Kubrick (who's done a variety of excellent movies).

Interesting, Will Wright apparently lived in Louisiana for a while.  Never would've guessed.


If Tarantino was the only one did crime films that had a 50% female audience, then I'd agree with that analogy, lol.

J/k, but I get what you're saying. I just think you're downplaying what he's accomplished too much. Will Wright, with The Sims, is one of the few people who has captured female and non-gamers successfully.

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A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline Strell

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RE: Is Nintendo Right?
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2006, 03:44:25 PM »
Will Wright is overrated.

Hugely.
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Offline Kairon

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RE: Is Nintendo Right?
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2006, 04:26:29 PM »
RAAAAAARGH!

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Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
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For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Is Nintendo Right?
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2006, 10:15:11 PM »
:elete::
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Is Nintendo Right?
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2006, 10:20:45 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
RAAAAAARGH!

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Lol. BTW I'm not sure i would say Halo and innovation in the same breath. I'm not sure making a game easier to attract more gamers is a stroke of genius either . Oh yeah I do agree with some of your other games though, Pac-Pix was alot of fun, and was quite innovative at the same time. On the topic of Will Wright, one thing I admire about him is his enthusiasm, like Miyamoto, he is a man that loves his job and wants to do his best to create quality games. Like I said I do love the Sims series (poorly optimized in places but oh well), and I really enjoy his SimCity games, but I'll have to agree to disagree when it comes to him being one of the most creative developers around.
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Offline Kairon

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RE:Is Nintendo Right?
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2006, 11:25:24 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: VGrevolution
Lol. BTW I'm not sure i would say Halo and innovation in the same breath. I'm not sure making a game easier to attract more gamers is a stroke of genius either .


To me it was a stroke of genius. Finally I could actually finish an FPS on anything but easy, and it still felt like it had a level of challenge to it! By giving me infinite lives via checkpoints, Halo let my brother and I wrestle through the game on without dumbing down the A.I. We were able to feel as if the game was a challenge due to our frequent deaths, AND we avoided frustrations due to the infinite continues and frequent checkpoints. All of a sudden I didn't need to be an uber gamer to get all I wanted out of the game, I just needed to improve on my mistakes consistently since the game wasn't cruel in my punishment. Halo became the FPS for casual gamers!!!

Oh, and the Halo loading screens has always rocked. Small things like that shouldn't be discounted, just like the small cut-away scenes to things like water dripping into a bucket in the Japanese Anime "Grave of the Fireflies" about two orphans during WWII Japan aren't meaningless either. I think these small things need to be appreciated for a truer understanding of game design.

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P.S. I actually hate playing Halo because I want FPS's to control like Turok 2, and their level design sucks, and their pacing is horrendously slow, and their story is ehhh.... but I can still appreciate the game's positive qualities.
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A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline Nick DiMola

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RE:Is Nintendo Right?
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2006, 05:35:54 AM »
I will never understand the obsession with Halo. Nothing was done particularly well, the level design was awful and boring, and the weapon balance was terrible as well (Did somebody say Sniper Pistol?).

Innovation is something needed terribly in this industry and more generic FPS's isn't helping that cause. I wish more companies did what developers on the DS do. I love the low startup times and immediate gameplay. I don't have as much time as I would like anymore to play video games and the pickup and play nature of the DS really aides that lifestyle. Plus I am sick of waiting 100 hours just to play a game. CG movies are nice sometimes, but most games do not benefit from them especially at the very beginning of the game.
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Offline Hostile Creation

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RE: Is Nintendo Right?
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2006, 10:08:56 AM »
Spore is the one thing of Will Wright's that has me really impressed.  In SimCity it was fun to build for a while, then destroy everything.  In The Sims, it was fun to build the house and mess around for maybe five minutes.  Spore looks superior in so many ways.  I'll need to play it of course, but it looks incredible.
HC: Honourary Aussie<BR>Originally posted by: ThePerm<BR>
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Is Nintendo Right?
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2006, 12:29:16 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
Spore is the one thing of Will Wright's that has me really impressed.  In SimCity it was fun to build for a while, then destroy everything.  In The Sims, it was fun to build the house and mess around for maybe five minutes.  Spore looks superior in so many ways.  I'll need to play it of course, but it looks incredible.


Yes Spore does look like alot of fun, it looks like a combination between The Sims and SimCity, but on a universal level.
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