Topic: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)

[ejamer]

this thread kinda went dead...!
...

And so has my free time after a promising start. Travelling for work, sick kids, and extra work in the evenings have killed my console gaming time.


That said, if I really wanted to get further in the game it could have happened. But the slow start has left me kind of neutral about making an effort to keep playing. It will happen eventually, but probably not in time for Retroactive.


(On the upside, I have enjoyed playing Xenogears on my PSP Go while travelling.)

[bionicjim]

 I've been wandering around forever with Rs.300 and am wondering how to get a larger wallet 

[ClexYoshi]

I've been wandering around forever with Rs.300 and am wondering how to get a larger wallet  :

you know Agatha? that really creepy as **** lil' girl they put in Hyrule Warriors for some reason? yeah, she gives you wallet upgrades for catching bugs, so... ENJOY THE BUG HUNT!

[Evan_B]

Whatever it is that you value that post 16-bit Legend of Zelda games do is proportionate to what you will get out of The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. I maintain that 3D Zelda is better left as a one and done myself.

But all the 3D Zelda titles are so vastly different from one another, as muh as (if not more than) 8-16 bit Zelda itself. As soon as you stop attempting to claim that Ocarina of Time is the pinnacle of the series (it's not- but it is a great entry in the non-linear subdivision of the series), the sooner you start appreciating 3D Zelda for its variety rather than how traditional the series plays.

[ClexYoshi]

Whatever it is that you value that post 16-bit Legend of Zelda games do is proportionate to what you will get out of The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. I maintain that 3D Zelda is better left as a one and done myself.

But all the 3D Zelda titles are so vastly different from one another, as muh as (if not more than) 8-16 bit Zelda itself. As soon as you stop attempting to claim that Ocarina of Time is the pinnacle of the series (it's not- but it is a great entry in the non-linear subdivision of the series), the sooner you start appreciating 3D Zelda for its variety rather than how traditional the series plays.

But that's the thing; I actually really don't like Ocarina of time that much, inasmuch that it's kinda like LTTP but stretched out ad nauseum and disjointed in all sorts of ways.

I actually think I would have appreciated Twilight Princess a whole lot more if that rather than focusing on making hyrule field expansive that they would have focused on making hyrule field dense. I feel like when I play the 2D games, there's always landmarks about and that there's a little something hiding all over the place. A link between world's miamai babies actually reinforced that extra hardcore, as there was always a trick to getting them, they gave a clear audio and visual cue, and it really felt rewarding and not a complete chore to find them thanks to them not being locked down by something arbitrary like the time of day.

Like... if the Agatha side-quest was much more dense, I think I would have dug it a hell of a lot more. introduce it earlier in the game, tie more rewards to it, make the bug journal give you maybe clues to each species' behavior and general location and tie both combat and puzzle solving to finding them...! Agatha could still give the wallet rewards, but what if she also gave the red armor? or a rupee sword that shoots blade beams every swing at the cost of a rupee and that could be pointer aimed? or even a Rupee Bow that kinda is a subtle tribute to the original legend of zelda where link would shoot an arrow at the cost of a rupee? and for that matter, a rupee bomb bag that would let you pull out a bomb at the cost of rupees? Wind waker had on-demand explosions at the cost of rupees in the form of the tingle tuner!

Or maybe... maybe you make the reward for getting all the bugs an upgrade for the spinner that makes it move along the ground at the speeds it does when you stick it into a wall socket?

[pokepal148]

Here's a fun hypothetical: should the gamecube version even have existed or should they have canned it and used the wii's extra horsepower to clean up some graphics or open up the field more and give the game gamecube controller support?

Whatever it is that you value that post 16-bit Legend of Zelda games do is proportionate to what you will get out of The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. I maintain that 3D Zelda is better left as a one and done myself.

But all the 3D Zelda titles are so vastly different from one another, as muh as (if not more than) 8-16 bit Zelda itself. As soon as you stop attempting to claim that Ocarina of Time is the pinnacle of the series (it's not- but it is a great entry in the non-linear subdivision of the series), the sooner you start appreciating 3D Zelda for its variety rather than how traditional the series plays.

Twilight Princess is easily the closest of the bunch to Ocarina (well, you could argue Majora due to that game recycling assets) but even then the game is ultimately

I haven't finished Majora's Mask (I plan to return to it after retroactive) but Ocarina of Time has alot of problems with consistent dungeon design and aspects that haven't aged well, Wind Waker is blatantly rushed and sometimes feels like, to keep within theme, a ship taking in water, and Skyward Sword is consistent in that outside of the Desert areas

[pokepal148]

Here's a fun hypothetical: should the gamecube version even have existed or should they have canned it and used the wii's extra horsepower to clean up some graphics or open up the field more and give the game gamecube controller support?

Whatever it is that you value that post 16-bit Legend of Zelda games do is proportionate to what you will get out of The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. I maintain that 3D Zelda is better left as a one and done myself.

But all the 3D Zelda titles are so vastly different from one another, as muh as (if not more than) 8-16 bit Zelda itself. As soon as you stop attempting to claim that Ocarina of Time is the pinnacle of the series (it's not- but it is a great entry in the non-linear subdivision of the series), the sooner you start appreciating 3D Zelda for its variety rather than how traditional the series plays.

Twilight Princess is easily the closest of the bunch to Ocarina (well, you could argue Majora due to that game recycling assets) but even then the game is ultimately

I haven't finished Majora's Mask (I plan to return to it after retroactive) but Ocarina of Time has alot of problems with consistent dungeon design and aspects that haven't aged well, Wind Waker is blatantly rushed and sometimes feels like, to keep within theme, a ship taking in water, and Skyward Sword is consistent in that outside of the Desert areas it consistently feels like a chore to play.

note to self, don't post in retroactive b4 work, I'll get back to this thought.

[pokepal148]

Here's a fun hypothetical: should the gamecube version even have existed or should they have canned it and used the wii's extra horsepower to clean up some graphics or open up the field more and give the game gamecube controller support?

Whatever it is that you value that post 16-bit Legend of Zelda games do is proportionate to what you will get out of The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. I maintain that 3D Zelda is better left as a one and done myself.

But all the 3D Zelda titles are so vastly different from one another, as muh as (if not more than) 8-16 bit Zelda itself. As soon as you stop attempting to claim that Ocarina of Time is the pinnacle of the series (it's not- but it is a great entry in the non-linear subdivision of the series), the sooner you start appreciating 3D Zelda for its variety rather than how traditional the series plays.

Twilight Princess is easily the closest of the bunch to Ocarina (well, you could argue Majora due to that game recycling assets) but even then the game is ultimately

I haven't finished Majora's Mask (I plan to return to it after retroactive) but Ocarina of Time has alot of problems with consistent dungeon design and aspects that haven't aged well, Wind Waker is blatantly rushed and sometimes feels like, to keep within theme, a ship taking in water, and Skyward Sword is consistent in that outside of the Desert areas it consistently feels like a chore to play.

(note to self, don't post in retroactive b4 work, I'll get back to this thought.)
(Right, back)
Twilight Princess never seems to go sour. There are a few small bumps in the road like the intro, that third wolf segment   dragging on way too long and the owl statue hunt but none of that is as prevalent as the sailing and over reliance on bad platforming mechanics in WW or OOT's uninteresting dungeon design (the water temple is one of the GOOD ones in that regard) or Skyward Sword's overuse of motion+.

Heck, on that note, am I the only one who thinks Twilight Princess is the first 3d Zelda to have consistently GOOD dungeon design?

[Mop it up]

Whatever it is that you value that post 16-bit Legend of Zelda games do is proportionate to what you will get out of The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. I maintain that 3D Zelda is better left as a one and done myself.

But all the 3D Zelda titles are so vastly different from one another, as much as (if not more than) 8-16 bit Zelda itself.

I agree, I've always felt the Zelda series games have a lot of differences from each other, even the 2D ones, and I've never really understood complaints of them being stale or samey.

[pokepal148]

There are actually people in the Zelda fanbase who get riled up because you needed 5 pieces of heart to get a full container in this game, I'M NOT EVEN KIDDING!

Also I like how Link just takes the Master Sword with him for the hell of it. There was no given reason at the time for him to take it, he just does.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

I'm pretty sure there's a halfhearted (on the writer's part) comment from Midna about the sword accepting Link as its master, and they say earlier that the sword can repel evil (including Wolf form Link), so I'd argue they adequately establish why Link keeps the Master Sword.

The third tear collection sequence and the stuff before the sky temple (aside from the hidden village shootout) are the weakest segments of the game, save for the intro. The final boss(es) are a bit sloppy in execution IMO as well compared with the other bosses in the game, like they totally forgot to polish the beginning and end and/or forgot they were 40 hours apart in a playthrough

Midna: Keep doing what you've been doing, only in wolf form!
Me: Arrows with a wolf--nope. Attack--nope. OH--that thing i did a few times 25 hours ago, never as a wolf? Okay, I'll "keep" doing that.

Also, that horrible horse combat makes a return. Should feel epic, but instead is just janky.

Dungeons are clever and distinct, though, if sometimes tedious, and the storytelling remains better than I had remembered throughout.

[thunderknee]

I played Twilight Princess with some friends back when the WII launched 8+ years ago, but now I am playing the Gamecube version by myself and it is great.  The game feels like it was made for the Gamecube controller.  I haven't mind the slow start to the game so far. The characters are interesting and the game play is fun. 


I like the settle foreshadowing from Ilia's dialogue to Link about treating Epona better and not just using her as tool.  Then shortly after that, Link becomes the mount and tool of Midna's agenda. I completely missed this comparison of wolf Link and Epona during my first play through.

[ClexYoshi]

Whatever it is that you value that post 16-bit Legend of Zelda games do is proportionate to what you will get out of The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. I maintain that 3D Zelda is better left as a one and done myself.

But all the 3D Zelda titles are so vastly different from one another, as much as (if not more than) 8-16 bit Zelda itself.

I agree, I've always felt the Zelda series games have a lot of differences from each other, even the 2D ones, and I've never really understood complaints of them being stale or samey.

I guess what I was trying to say is that everybody is praising Dungeon design here, and that's usually one of 3D Zelda's strongest suits is the way they've managed to keep the formula of "Stumble way through dungeon until new traversal method is found, use said traversal method to beat up big monster at end of labyrinth" nice and strong... although, to get off topic, I think the reason the first Girahim boss in Skyward Sword was so fresh and impressive was that he wasn't a boss based aorund shooting him in the face with the beetle or something, but is rather a test of your ability to effectively sword or use some of link's other abilities.

but yeah, 3D Zelda dungeon design is a great formula. it's why it's amazing in Shantae, especially because they let you use the transformative dances/Pirate items to find secrets in the rooms you've already explored, like extra money, or going back to the Saliva Island dungeon in Pirate's curse and being able to find that easter egg of the dribble fountain for easy money! The difference with SHantae is while there are points of chattny NPCs, that can be skipped, and things still feel dense and action packed (besides maybe flying around as Harpy Shantae to collect crap Wayforward hid in the sky in some maps...)

[ejamer]

So after just not finding time for Twilight Princess for a month or so, I'm back on the horse... er, wolf!


Finished the first dungeon, and well on my way to entering the second. Controls are starting to feel more comfortable, although I'm still wishing they didn't use waggle for combat. It's not a good representation of what's happening on screen and feels kind of pointless. Other than that, everything seems to be looking up  - despite feeling like it's a bit too much "Ocarina remake" for my liking...  (That feeling might wear off, but is strong now because I just walked through Hyrule field and the world geography feels kind of samey.)


How long do we have before the actual discussion takes place on RFN?

[pokepal148]

2 weeks dahling... tick tock

[ejamer]

2 weeks dahling... tick tock

Oh, I'm sure that with my current rate of progress I'll be done by then.
(Or maybe just about to start the second dungeon... Yeah, that's more likely.)

[redfieldjames]

This is the first time I've actually played Twilight Princess. I missed out on it on release because, well... life. I coincidentally picked it up this winter and started playing through it before discovering RFN. Having just completed it, here are my thoughts. I should say that I've played through all other major Zelda titles, outside of 4 Swords and the two DS titles.


Graphics and art design;
 I absolutely loved the art style of this game. I continuously was reminded of Studio Ghibli and to me that's high praise. Honestly, this is my favorite art style in a Zelda game, ever. Despite being released almost a decade ago, the graphics have held up in my opinion, which is even more surprising to me when I realize that this was developed for the Gamecube.


World and Dungeon design;
This is tricky. I realize that Nintendo "flipped" the game on the Wii to match the Wii-mote (since most people are right handed... or something). Being a veteran of the series, this messed me up significantly. Things just aren't were they're supposed to be. The castle is in the right place, but other than that, everything else seems... wrong? Also, despite the over world being fairly massive, it just feels... empty. On the flip side, I found the dungeons to be excellent and clever... and that's more important to me.


Controls;
I can not stress enough how much the controls for the Wii continuously frustrated and infuriated me. Moving and aiming items are fine... the waggle sword fighting is what killed me time and time again. Example;


Me: "Now would be a good time for a shield bash!"
[Moves the nunchuck  forward]
Game: "Spin attack!"


-or-


Me: "Keese! Hit it! Hit it!"
[Furiously shaking the Wii-mote wildly]
Game: "Hold on, I'm going to delay that attack for a second... gotta be sure you want to attack."
[Link gets hit, then swings, then falls off the ledge.]


It doesn't feel like a Zelda game, and certainly not a Nintendo game. Please don't get my started on the controls for horseback fighting. Very loose, very frustrating. Also, the Navi pointer thing is atroicious.


Other gripes or commendations;
This game is chocked full of fetch quests. Off the top of my head - Golden bugs, poe souls, tears of light, howling stones, golden wolves, owl statues... I mean, I know that Zelda is ultimately a game based upon "go find a key to open this door" or "get an item to pass this obstacle." But Twilight Princess just serves it all up unapologetically. I tend to be a completionist, but not this game.


I love Midna. Best Zelda sidekick ever.


Overall;
I'm pretty conflicted about this game. I imagine that if I had the Gamecube version I would feel much more positive about this game. I cannot stress enough how frustrating the waggle controls were to me. I played through Skyward Sword previously and though I have issue with that game, the sword controls were actually enjoyable to me. It's just not implemented very well in this game.


The Internet is full of rumors regarding a possible port of this game to the 3DS. I'm not holding my breath, but I'd actually look forward to it. A standard control scheme would make this one of my favorite Zelda games off all time.


Thanks for reading!

[ClexYoshi]

Graphics and art design;
 I absolutely loved the art style of this game. I continuously was reminded of Studio Ghibli and to me that's high praise. Honestly, this is my favorite art style in a Zelda game, ever. Despite being released almost a decade ago, the graphics have held up in my opinion, which is even more surprising to me when I realize that this was developed for the Gamecube.

Time to tell Level 5 they're nothing special and that Nintendo made the Ni no Kuni killer 4 years before Ni no Kuni without the huge art budget put into the game!

RedfieldJames, let's agree to disagree on that point. I do like your write up, but uh... while the models were a lil' more expressive than I remember them being, this is the LoZ game that I feel is probably the most dated by it's art direction besides maybe the NES Zelda titles?

[redfieldjames]

... while the models were a lil' more expressive than I remember them being, this is the LoZ game that I feel is probably the most dated by it's art direction besides maybe the NES Zelda titles?

I honestly would say that the original LoZ holds up well... it's got a certain charm. Link's Adventure though...   even I wouldn't go as far to defend that one.


But preferences are preferences. Question for you and everyone else, what's your favorite Zelda, and why? Follow up, if it's not Twilight Princess, what is the one thing that keeps TP from being that game?

[ejamer]

... while the models were a lil' more expressive than I remember them being, this is the LoZ game that I feel is probably the most dated by it's art direction besides maybe the NES Zelda titles?

I honestly would say that the original LoZ holds up well... it's got a certain charm. Link's Adventure though...   even I wouldn't go as far to defend that one.

But preferences are preferences. Question for you and everyone else, what's your favorite Zelda, and why? Follow up, if it's not Twilight Princess, what is the one thing that keeps TP from being that game?

Caveat: still very early in the game so take opinions with a grain of salt.


Re: Graphics


I agree with ClexYoshi - the graphics in Twilight Princess don't hold up well for me. They aren't bad, but also haven't really impressed early on and have that "dated" feel that always seems to come from going for a realistic style instead of trusting your art team to create something memorable. Texture work seems particularly rough in spots. Having only recently played Wind Waker (the GameCube version, which still looks fantastic) the dated graphics here were even more noticeable.


Also, the Hyrule Field "reveal" early on was so disheartening. It's a big, mostly empty field. Maybe impressive on N64 when 3D worlds were new and the lack of fog was a big deal... not so exciting many years later.


Re: Favorite Zelda Game


My favorite is probably Majora's Mask, if only because the idea of a living town where each person has a regular routine, a story of their own, and requires actual interaction is such a great change of pace. Trying to find out what the story is for each person and step in to help them was really interesting and enjoyable for me. Normally the worlds in a Zelda game are large, but lacking interesting things to do unless you are following the expected path to progress the story... I felt  like Majora's Mask reduced the size but packed the game with more to do. (There are plenty of other flaws in this game, but the fact it tries to be different makes it memorable to me.)


Second favorite is Link to the Past, which strikes a nice balance between encouraging world exploration to find little secrets and treasures, and following the expected path. I suspect that ranking it second is colored by nostalgia... but still think it holds up well many years later.

[redfieldjames]

My favorite is probably Majora's Mask, if only because the idea of a living town where each person has a regular routine, a story of their own, and requires actual interaction is such a great change of pace...

Second favorite is Link to the Past, which strikes a nice balance between encouraging world exploration to find little secrets and treasures, and following the expected path. I suspect that ranking it second is colored by nostalgia... but still think it holds up well many years later.

Those are both great games. I don't think nostalgia is blinding you in regards to your ranking of LttP so highly. I have friends that rank it their #1 game of all time! Speaking about the thrill of exploration from LttP --- that's what I miss the most from the more recent Zelda games, especially Twilight Princess. The first few hours are horrible to get through, but the game never really feels like it lets go. It's kind of frustrating.


I don't really play Zelda games for their story, they're all pretty much the same (props to Majora's Mask for being the major exception)... What I love most about this series originally was the sense of exploration and mystery. Take this sword, and go off into the unknown.


Good picks!

[pokepal148]

My favorite is probably Majora's Mask, if only because the idea of a living town where each person has a regular routine, a story of their own, and requires actual interaction is such a great change of pace...

Second favorite is Link to the Past, which strikes a nice balance between encouraging world exploration to find little secrets and treasures, and following the expected path. I suspect that ranking it second is colored by nostalgia... but still think it holds up well many years later.

Those are both great games. I don't think nostalgia is blinding you in regards to your ranking of LttP so highly. I have friends that rank it their #1 game of all time! Speaking about the thrill of exploration from LttP --- that's what I miss the most from the more recent Zelda games, especially Twilight Princess. The first few hours are horrible to get through, but the game never really feels like it lets go. It's kind of frustrating.


I don't really play Zelda games for their story, they're all pretty much the same (props to Majora's Mask for being the major exception)... What I love most about this series originally was the sense of exploration and mystery. Take this sword, and go off into the unknown.


Good picks!

Try Skyward Sword, that game never lets jou go.

[redfieldjames]

Try Skyward Sword, that game never lets jou go.

I played it when it came out... funny thing is I don't actually remember much about it. I think I enjoyed it more than TP, but honestly besides some of the boss battles and controls, nothing about that game stands out in my memory of being paticularly incredible. I may have to dust it off and give it another play through...

[Jonnyboy117]

Hey RAers! I wanted you to be the first to know that we are going to be doing this edition of RetroActive as a special LIVE event on Saturday, May 30th (time will be announced in the next couple of days as we finalize the details). I just recorded a 100% rambling mini-episode to announce it to all our subscribers this weekend. Unfortunately, that's also to explain why we don't have a real show for you this weekend, but hopefully this live show makes up for that! There is so much great discussion here already, and we hope some of you will call in next Saturday to chat with us about Twilight Princess!

[ClexYoshi]

Hey RAers! I wanted you to be the first to know that we are going to be doing this edition of RetroActive as a special LIVE event on Saturday, May 30th (time will be announced in the next couple of days as we finalize the details). I just recorded a 100% rambling mini-episode to announce it to all our subscribers this weekend. Unfortunately, that's also to explain why we don't have a real show for you this weekend, but hopefully this live show makes up for that! There is so much great discussion here already, and we hope some of you will call in next Saturday to chat with us about Twilight Princess!

ffffffffffffffffffffFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-okay.

I'll be out of town.

Actually, I probably would have been upset at this timing even if I wasn't going to a con in seattle, as I live within less than an hour's driving distance from one of the locations of the Nintendo World Championship qualifiers and I would have been waking up early and standing in long lines to do that, and then probably been visiting my cousin since he lives like... 5 minutes away from that best buy.

anyhow, have fun, kids!