NWR Interactive => Podcast Discussion => Topic started by: Jonnyboy117 on April 04, 2015, 02:59:53 PM
Title: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on April 04, 2015, 02:59:53 PM
Hi everyone! This is the place to discuss Twilight Princess for RFN's upcoming RetroActive feature. Please feel free to leave comments, ask questions, and share tips about the game. As a reminder, we will quote some of the best posts from this forum thread and read excerpts on the podcast during the RetroActive discussion, which is currently expected around mid-May. That gives everyone plenty of time to play through this lengthy adventure, one of the only games released on two different Nintendo consoles simultaneously (at least since the mid-90s).
We hope you'll play along with the RFN crew and discover, or re-discover, this unique entry in the Zelda series! Of course, Twilight Princess is available for both GameCube and Wii. You may want to note which version you're playing, especially if discussing controls.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: Mop it up on April 04, 2015, 03:43:20 PM
Huh, I guess I missed the vote on this one. I actually don't think I've played this game in a few years, so I wouldn't mind giving it another go, but I'm not sure if now's the time for that...
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: Shaymin on April 04, 2015, 07:09:51 PM
There's going to be plenty of time to play this one, don't worry.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: ejamer on April 04, 2015, 08:23:05 PM
I've never played it, and was trying to decide what game to play next. I'm in.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: scrawnton on April 04, 2015, 08:44:00 PM
I have been playing this game off and on a bit ever since it was announced as the winner. Some very quick impressions are that I am impressed with how well the gameplay holds up and how badly a lot of games last generation dumbed down world and gameplay mechanics while this game showed unique ways to interact with the world. Even though the start of the game is still very slow, I really missed the idea of smaller, quaint towns in video games where you get to know every NPC. When it comes to NPCs and town villages/cities, sometimes less is more (I hope nintendo remembers that when they develop the new Wii U zelda, we do not need a giant city of lifeless NPCs that most western and open world games have).
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: pokepal148 on April 04, 2015, 08:48:13 PM
What's remarkable about Twilight Princess is how much the game rewards going off the beaten path to see what you can find.
Also, fun thing: there is special dialogue for if while talking to the mayor to get the iron boots you talk to everyone else in the village as well.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: scrawnton on April 04, 2015, 09:14:29 PM
What's remarkable about Twilight Princess is how much the game rewards going off the beaten path to see what you can find.
Also, fun thing: there is special dialogue for if while talking to the mayor to get the iron boots you talk to everyone else in the village as well.
This is one of the small world aspects to gaming we lost as things got much bigger and more open. I like walking around the world during different parts of the games progression to see how NPCs change what they say to Link. It adds to the realism of the world and makes for a much more engaging experience.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: pokepal148 on April 07, 2015, 02:12:33 PM
Twilight Princess as a whole... well I mean I should preface this by saying that in OOT you had several settlements but they all felt so isolated from eachother I mean the Zoras basically had their own little corner of Hyrule, the Gorons seemed fairly isolated from Kakariko Village considering they are literally right next door to eachother,
And to top it all off nobody seems to be aware that the Kokiri even exist except for Malon (come to think of it her mother is mentioned to have passed away when she was very young, oh Talon you dirty...)
But in Twilight Princess everything seems much more interconnected. Zora's Domain freezing over causes a massive water shortage in Castletown, The Gorons having their issues causes Kakariko Village to suffer immensely because Kakariko relies on the Gorons to help produce bombs.
Hyrule, for the first time, actually feels interconnected to the point where issues in one area can have an affect on another. To put it bluntly for the first time Hyrule actually feels like a kingdom as opposed to a handful of disconnected settlements.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: sirmastersephiroth on April 08, 2015, 06:20:50 PM
I voted for Super Mario Sunshine but I'm still happy this game won. It'll probably make for a better discussion.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on April 10, 2015, 02:33:17 AM
I've completed the first dungeon and figured now would be a good point to share my initial thoughts. Actually, after typing this up, maybe I should be posting these as some sort of article on the website! Anyway, for those brave enough to continue reading this post, thank you.
1) The tutorial design and pacing for the first hour or two, up until you first meet Princess Zelda, is pretty atrocious. The game clumsily attempts to guide the player through the basic controls while also moving the story along and, well, the game's beginning fails at both. The first thing I'm told to do is get my horse, Epona. But when I try to walk forward, I'm told, "Hey, you need to get your horse!" Yeah, I know, and my horse isn't in sight. What I didn't notice, maybe due to the subdued graphics or my stupidly not glancing at the map, was that I had to go the other way to the pond, to find Epona. Maybe I'm just dense, but it took me way too long to realize they were trying to tell me, "Hey, there's another path. Go down the path over there." The same kind of crap played out a few more times in that stupid little town: herding cats and failing because I didn't go fishing, fishing but not being close enough to the cat for the cat to actually eat the fish, using the hawk for the beehive target first and then incorrectly thinking I was done with using the hawk, and hitting the targets when being taught to use the slingshot….but failing because apparently the scarecrows are also targets and they don't tell you. Why the hell is the game trying to throw curve balls at the same moment a mechanic is being introduced?! Yeah, I get that everyone has played a Zelda game before and they want to keep things interesting, but it still comes off as a poor design decision. And herding the goats…twice?! Sheesh! It's like the game is trolling the player with a series of pranks before getting to the fun stuff.
2) There's some sloppy execution when you first start as the wolf, too. I probably rammed into that wooden crate in the prison cell five times looking for someplace to dig. I figured I must have the wrong idea, but in reality I was just slightly off. Super frustrating. The sequence leading up to meeting Zelda isn't as bad, but is still a poor showcase of boring corridors that can cause disorientation.
3) Fortunately, once the game gives up on tutorials it becomes so much better! The portion with the wolf where you're exploring the town and the tear-collecting sequence in the forest is surprisingly enjoyable, given how much I hated the similar sequences in Skyward Sword. I think there are a couple of reasons why the twilight realm sequences work better in this game than in Skyward Sword. For one thing, stealth sequences suck. Yeah, I'm showing my bias, but screw stealth in Zelda games and games in general. But Skyward Sword also had a timer which, if depleted, forced you to repeat the last 10 minutes of torture, which was at odds with the exploration objective. Also, I think that exploring the Twilight Realm version first, plus having a different control scheme as the wolf (that is really fun!), makes the "recycling" of the environments feel less egregious. I find that I WANT to explore the bizarre new area in Twilight as a wolf, and then again once the twilight is lifted!
4) I always recalled Twilight Princess as being kind of an ugly game with muted colors and bad character designs. While I think there's some truth to that, I've actually been impressed with the art style and presentation so far. The colors ARE muted, but it sets a nice ambience that goes well with the Twilight Realm and gives an overall sense of a tattered, used, and depressed world just barely getting by. And while I'm still not a fan of many of the character designs in the first town, there are some impressive facial animations that really portray emotions. There's a great moment where both Link and the mayor are being scolded by Illia, and the two guys shrink away a little, wince, and look at each other with mutual understanding. Midna similarly has some really well animated sequences when she's playing mind games with Link in wolf form. Also, the Twilight art style is integrated well: instead of inexplicable magical light pillars that show up after a boss, Minda conjures a portal, and instead of the first boss just shriveling up or going "poof", it disintegrates into black Twilight pixels.
5) Is it me, or is the first dungeon surprisingly meaty? There certainly isn't much hand-holding by the time you reach the first dungeon. Heck, Midna doesn't even give hints on how to proceed or combat enemies (a welcome change from Navi & Fi). I'm not saying the first dungeon is super difficult, it does feel like the team felt comfortable assuming folks had played a prior Zelda game, be it OoT or WW. Majora's Mask has a similar difficulty curve, in my opinion. It makes sense: both MM and TP are the second Zelda games for the N64 and GC, respectively.
6) The waggle in the Wii version sucks. I've not swung my sword SO MANY TIMES, and it feels so much worse after Skyward Sword's excellent controls. Sure, I get widescreen with the Wii version, and the aiming mechanics work pretty well for the slingshot and boomerang, but I suspect the GameCube version is more enjoyable, overall. If Nintendo remakes Twilight Princess for Wii U, they would be wise to include a motionless control scheme as an option, although it would also be interesting to see them retrofit Wii Motion Plus into such a remake. (Then again, I doubt I'll be buying a remake if one is made thanks to this RetroActive.)
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: pokepal148 on April 11, 2015, 02:34:00 PM
I've completed the first dungeon and figured now would be a good point to share my initial thoughts. Actually, after typing this up, maybe I should be posting these as some sort of article on the website! Anyway, for those brave enough to continue reading this post, thank you.
1) The tutorial design and pacing for the first hour or two, up until you first meet Princess Zelda, is pretty atrocious. The game clumsily attempts to guide the player through the basic controls while also moving the story along and, well, the game's beginning fails at both. The first thing I'm told to do is get my horse, Epona. But when I try to walk forward, I'm told, "Hey, you need to get your horse!" Yeah, I know, and my horse isn't in sight. What I didn't notice, maybe due to the subdued graphics or my stupidly not glancing at the map, was that I had to go the other way to the pond, to find Epona. Maybe I'm just dense, but it took me way too long to realize they were trying to tell me, "Hey, there's another path. Go down the path over there." The same kind of crap played out a few more times in that stupid little town: herding cats and failing because I didn't go fishing, fishing but not being close enough to the cat for the cat to actually eat the fish, using the hawk for the beehive target first and then incorrectly thinking I was done with using the hawk, and hitting the targets when being taught to use the slingshot….but failing because apparently the scarecrows are also targets and they don't tell you. Why the hell is the game trying to throw curve balls at the same moment a mechanic is being introduced?! Yeah, I get that everyone has played a Zelda game before and they want to keep things interesting, but it still comes off as a poor design decision. And herding the goats…twice?! Sheesh! It's like the game is trolling the player with a series of pranks before getting to the fun stuff.
Actually, the kid does explicitly tell you 'hey, use the side path to get in'
But I have heard that the long tutorial was tacked on to increase accessibility in case a more casual player picked this up.
Quote
2) There's some sloppy execution when you first start as the wolf, too. I probably rammed into that wooden crate in the prison cell five times looking for someplace to dig. I figured I must have the wrong idea, but in reality I was just slightly off. Super frustrating. The sequence leading up to meeting Zelda isn't as bad, but is still a poor showcase of boring corridors that can cause disorientation.
Agreed. The whole Twilight effect works best in a wide open area. It really doesn't look that good in a more closed off area.
Quote
3) Fortunately, once the game gives up on tutorials it becomes so much better! The portion with the wolf where you're exploring the town and the tear-collecting sequence in the forest is surprisingly enjoyable, given how much I hated the similar sequences in Skyward Sword. I think there are a couple of reasons why the twilight realm sequences work better in this game than in Skyward Sword. For one thing, stealth sequences suck. Yeah, I'm showing my bias, but screw stealth in Zelda games and games in general. But Skyward Sword also had a timer which, if depleted, forced you to repeat the last 10 minutes of torture, which was at odds with the exploration objective. Also, I think that exploring the Twilight Realm version first, plus having a different control scheme as the wolf (that is really fun!), makes the "recycling" of the environments feel less egregious. I find that I WANT to explore the bizarre new area in Twilight as a wolf, and then again once the twilight is lifted!
Its a very good way to sort of tease the player because you can easily find something as a wolf that you need an item as regular Link to deal with.
also, I'm skipping the 4th point because I want to discuss that one seperately.
Quote
5) Is it me, or is the first dungeon surprisingly meaty? There certainly isn't much hand-holding by the time you reach the first dungeon. Heck, Midna doesn't even give hints on how to proceed or combat enemies (a welcome change from Navi & Fi). I'm not saying the first dungeon is super difficult, it does feel like the team felt comfortable assuming folks had played a prior Zelda game, be it OoT or WW. Majora's Mask has a similar difficulty curve, in my opinion. It makes sense: both MM and TP are the second Zelda games for the N64 and GC, respectively.
The first dungeon is one of the best examples I can think of for, what I call, "handholding without handholding". Instead of having Navi or Fi just directly tell you what to do they have the Monkeys do various gestures and such to beckon you to go somewhere. This is means the game can guide the player without making the player feel like they are just being pushed around and told what to do for every single situation. (A phenomenon I like to call, "Playing Skyward Sword")
Quote
6) The waggle in the Wii version sucks. I've not swung my sword SO MANY TIMES, and it feels so much worse after Skyward Sword's excellent controls. Sure, I get widescreen with the Wii version, and the aiming mechanics work pretty well for the slingshot and boomerang, but I suspect the GameCube version is more enjoyable, overall. If Nintendo remakes Twilight Princess for Wii U, they would be wise to include a motionless control scheme as an option, although it would also be interesting to see them retrofit Wii Motion Plus into such a remake. (Then again, I doubt I'll be buying a remake if one is made thanks to this RetroActive.)
I know they have a setting to let you tell the game how large your sensor bar is in relation to your TV and honestly, it helps a bit.
There is actually a setting to turn off the pointer control, curiously enough.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: pokepal148 on April 11, 2015, 03:19:22 PM
Oh doggone it, I was afraid I'd mess up the quote thing, does someone want to fix that for me? I'd appreciate it.
Quote
4) I always recalled Twilight Princess as being kind of an ugly game with muted colors and bad character designs.
I really don't think that they should have attempted that Art Style on the gamecube because the gamecube simply could not handle it consistently. Link's Character model looks really nice, Midna's Helmet (when seen in Links wolf form) is surprisingly detailed as well and alot of the other character models are well done as well but then you look at alot of the ground textures and well... (http://www.zeldainformer.com/images/news/2.jpg)
Seriously, Xenoblade has better looking ground textures then that.
Now that screenshot is part of a comparison with a texture pack that basically cleaned up the ground and well...
While I think there's some truth to that, I've actually been impressed with the art style and presentation so far. The colors ARE muted, but it sets a nice ambience that goes well with the Twilight Realm and gives an overall sense of a tattered, used, and depressed world just barely getting by. And while I'm still not a fan of many of the character designs in the first town, there are some impressive facial animations that really portray emotions. There's a great moment where both Link and the mayor are being scolded by Illia, and the two guys shrink away a little, wince, and look at each other with mutual understanding. Midna similarly has some really well animated sequences when she's playing mind games with Link in wolf form.
It goes further, I mentioned before talking to everyone in the village when you find out the children are safe and there's a reason for that: You are essentially telling all of their parents individually that their kids are safe and the game does an exceptional job of portraying that.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: pokepal148 on April 11, 2015, 04:01:57 PM
Twilight Princess had a long development process and it also has alot of Cut Content. This leads to one of the more interesting things about the game: The possibly re-purposed content.
For example, when you find a howling stone you howl at it and have to do a basic 3 note song in a certain rhythm. This is done using the joystick, much like The Wind Waker was and is presented in a similar way to the Ocarina from MM/OOT. Now Twilight Princess does not have a traditional 3d Zelda musical instrument like the others so maybe that system was originally meant to be used with an instrument.
You also have the grass which you use to do stuff like summon a bird, and using that grass while in wolf form requires you to do the joystick thing. Perhaps the howling and whatever instrument were meant to be able to preform a similar purpose.
And I don't know about you but this thing seems like this should be able to play more then one song.
My theory is that you were meant to have the horse call from the start and that it was removed for whatever reason so they added the grass in instead. Later on you get the horse call item which if I recall correctly, Illia specifically states she was going to give to you before you set off on your delivery, also known as the beginning of the game.
There's also the hidden village, which raises a few questions from me, such as whether or not it was supposed to be a full on village and if so, where it would have been on the map (assuming it wasn't just an early version of Kakariko that they decided to reuse.)
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on April 12, 2015, 07:53:28 PM
The motion controls continue to frustrate me. The shield thrust move barely ever works, and even the basic swordplay can be wonky at times. It's a shame, because otherwise I'm having a fantastic time. It may be my secret favorite Zelda game! The boss battles in particular have been satisfying, with excellent musical themes and a grand scale that at times reminds me of Shadow of the Colossus.
While I'd rather Nintendo finish its new Zelda game, I can see an argument for an HD remake of Twilight Princess, possibly even with Wii Motion Plus.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: ClexYoshi on April 13, 2015, 03:34:48 PM
I am seriously having trouble motivating myself enough to walk over to my closet and dig out my disc for Twilight Princess. I rmemeber I tried to revisit this one about 4 or 5 years ago while a friend of mine was in town. I think I got to the lakebed temple and encountered a game breaking bug.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf4Pa0XkEik
note I couldn't get him to go into an idle animation long enough to de-equip the iron boots or remove them.
Anyhow, these days I actually have a capture card and such, and I told another friend about my lack of motivation to play through the ordon village portion of this game for a third time, and so I'm going to maybe stream it after I get off work tomorrow. would anybody else be interested in some live reactions to the game if I played it in a series of streams?
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on April 18, 2015, 08:35:49 PM
Where is the Zelda love? I'm having a blast! Twilight Princess tries some risky things with some of its dungeons, and it doesn't always work, but it's still a good time. I just finished the very different Temple of Time, which has some very clever puzzles which are a little tedious in execution.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: ejamer on April 19, 2015, 09:20:00 PM
The opening of the game has seemed very drawn out - I've played for a couple of hours and am just about to start the Forest Temple now. I don't want to dive into this thread too quickly for fear of spoilers (first time playing Twilight Princess!) and am hoping that the game picks up speed soon so that I'll have something worth adding to the discussion.
Early impressions from playing the Wii release: * Waggle controls aren't great - in fact, they are so annoying that I actively wish I had purchased the GameCube version instead; however, I like pointer controls for my slingshot and imagine that other weapons (bow, hookshot, etc) could make great use of the pointer also. * The darker tone isn't drawing me in; it's not really fair to comment so early, but the colorless world just feels less... adventurous? Wind Waker always left me excited to see what was around the next corner because the world felt lush and vibrant, but in Twilight Princess I'm kind of blase about exploring the world. (Granted, everything has been linear so far with no exploration needed.)
So rumors have been floating around about a 3DS remake for this game. How do people feel about that possibility? Would you re-buy this game to own a portable version? In line with my anti-waggle comment above, the switch to button-based controls alone might be enough to convince me... although it would be a hard sell if the 3DS game comes out just after I've finished the console version.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: ClexYoshi on April 20, 2015, 05:37:29 AM
I... I don't know, Ejamer. I can't bring myself to play it now. I can't imagine what in the heck it would take for me to dump $40 to play it again.
Legend of Zelda games are... kinda like Journey to me where they're more of an experience than anything else. I can count the number of Legend of Zelda games that I have successfully beaten multiple times on one hand... that'd be A Link to the Past, Link's awakening, Zelda 2: The adventures of Link, aaaaaaand maybe Zelda 1? I can't remember if I've done it more than once.
I burnt out on Ocarina of time 3D, didn't bother picking up Majora's Mask or Wind Waker HD (Especially since I somehow ended up with multiple copies of Wind Waker and I don't even know how. I haven't even beaten that game once!)
I really do not get the metal block I have with these games. I want to do Retroactive, and I probably would have dived in all Gung-ho had we gotten Super Mario Sunshine!
I remember Twilight Princess being a lot of busywork. Collect 20 tears of light before you can really even do anything besides have shortstack waifu berate you. Herd Goats, find a bunch of little bugs flying around, find chicken nugget's children in the dungeons, do the Cucco SKydiving game multiple times into lake hylia because it just doesn't control great. sit directly in front of the TV so you can use the pointer! sumo wrestle with gorons!
The first time through you're wrapped up in the wonder and discovery of it all. things like the sidequesting and the tears of light and all that jazz are meant to build up tension before you finally make it into that dungeon and learn what new toy you get to fiddle with, and I think it's a crest that only gives me enough of a high the one time.
That's not to say TP isn't good or amazing! The Ball and Chain sticks out as one of my favorite things they've ever put into a Zelda game in the history of ever! Shortstack Waifu is indeed a waifu for the ages. She's got the whole appeal to edgelords, who probably were salavating all over this game until they realized how much of a goofball Zant is. Speaking of which, Zant is an incredibly fun villan, and I suppose Hyrule Warriors really helped to amplify this! I also love that this game brought back my true love, the mystical bomb-arrow.
I really need to tell my friends to motivate me to play this game. I want to play the game from beginning to end so I can give you folks a clearer vision than foggy hindsight.
I ain't collecting bugs though. seriously, Agatha creeps me the hell out in the same way that treasure trolls do.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: TK Thunder on April 20, 2015, 12:04:01 PM
This is the 4th time I've taken on Twilight Princess. Having only beaten it one time about 7 years ago, I figure it's time to make my way all the way through it again. I'm about 12 hours in, just about ready to take on the 3rd temple in the game. So far, I found that the games positive aspects are so much better than the negatives, however obvious they may be. The pointer controls and pace of the game are probably the biggest negatives I can post about.
One of the things I haven't seen much of so far is the music. So far, most of it hasn't really captured my attention all that well. But there are two areas that are very noticeable to me. First off, the music during boss battles. I really enjoy how intense the music gets when a boss gets knocked down for a little while. The second area of music that sticks out to me is the theme in Hyrule Field. I probably never felt this way until getting the Zelda 25th Anniversary CD that came with the release of Skyward Sword. That song is so much fun to listen to. Now, after getting back into this game again, I appreciate the Hyrule Field theme song. The only other thing I'll include about the music in TP, is how emotional it can get at times, really bringing out the feelings of certain characters...especially Colin.
Does anybody else have anything to include about the music of TP?
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: ClexYoshi on April 20, 2015, 03:01:14 PM
Does anybody else have anything to include about the music of TP?
it sounds really good coming out of Smooth McGroove's mouth.
(Minor Midgame Spoilers)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_JPIK6pUC4
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on April 20, 2015, 09:48:46 PM
Twilight Princess has awesome music. Lots of great boss battle themes (new and reprised), a solid overworld theme, and some good timing and tone-setting in cutscenes. I don't know if it is better than Wind Waker but it sure as heck puts Skyward Sword to shame. I really hope the new Zelda Wii U game takes its musical cues from a combination of this game and A Link Between Worlds.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: Darkurai the Oracle Pony on April 20, 2015, 10:08:11 PM
So after three consecutive hours of play, I've reached the end of the Forest Temple. This experience is giving me a new appreciation for the game, as well as making me appreciate other parts of the game less than ever.
While I've always defended the slower intro to this game, it's becoming very difficult to justify it now. When I last played Twilight Princess, I was fourteen years old, and now at twenty-two I feel like my time is being disrespected as the game asks me to herd goats twice, direct a falcon twice, and catch fish for a cat twice. None of these actions are relevant for the entire rest of the game after this tutorial is over, although it is cute how an NPC uses the falcon against you later after you basically teach it to him.
There would be nothing wrong with using this time to introduce us to concepts if these concepts were actually used at all for the rest of the game. It reminds me of the boss fights in Deus Ex: Human Revolution; it's completely incongruous with the rest of the game, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the whole beginning section was outsourced to another team entirely.
Despite the terrible start, the game picks up quickly when we reach the first temple. I truly do not remember the rest of the game's temples, but if they only get better from here on out, then this has the makings to be the Zelda game with the best dungeons by far. Twilight Princess can be most directly compared with Ocarina of Time due to a similar world and structure, and the Forest Temple is already significantly more fun than Inside the Great Deku Tree, which is kind of a straight line in comparison.
In the meantime, the Forest Temple is nonlinear. While there is a strict progression clearly planned by the developer, it's not immediately obvious which way you're supposed to go, giving the entire dungeon the feeling of a big puzzle that needs to be solved. Rooms need to be revisited a couple times with new items or perspectives, and the backtracking is quick enough and sparse enough that it never feels egregious.
I've only just begun the game, and I have a feeling that it's going to be much better than I remember.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: Evan_B on April 21, 2015, 01:36:05 AM
I am a big fan of Twilight Princess- I recognize it's flaws, but as mentioned previously its sparse world does have a lot of interconnected elements- it feels more like a kingdom uniting or being brought together. I enjoy it's atmosphere, it's music (hylianesche steppe is one of my favorite Overworld themes in the series), and I like the story and characters a lot.
I played the GameCube version (aka the right one- or I guess I should say left), and I felt the control scheme was really nice. The inventory system felt a whole lot better than Wind Waker or pretty much any game prior. I never really realized how convenient it was until I went back to the older titles again. However, I disagree with the notion that this game encourages one to go off the beaten path, because there sure as hell is a lot of empty space in this game.
I'll be back to discuss more of this game when I have time. It is one of my favorite Zelda titles, despite being a mediocre installment in the series.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: ClexYoshi on April 21, 2015, 05:41:55 PM
Click the image to join in. I'll try to go for about 6 hours, with maybe an intermission for dinner. I'll make a follow-up post on actual thoughts.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: ClexYoshi on April 21, 2015, 08:20:32 PM
so, it seems that since this is in the podcast discussion forum, I can't edit posts. regardless, I put about 2:15 give or take fuss with trying to get my capture card to behave. I'm about up to going to get the tears of light for Faron woods.
The thing about this game is not just the padding, but the laborious nature of the padding. I -KNOW- there's 50 rupees in Link's basement that I could use to bypass money farming for the slingshot, but I am immediatley denied. I know I have to catch a fish for the cat to get it to go back to the item store, but it won't actually do so unless I talk to the shop keeper first. I know I have to get the basket using the hawk, but again... the basket doesn't spawn unless I talk to people and do cutscene stuff. Even when you have read dialogue and want to hit A to get to the next bit, you have to wait for NPCs to do their silent gestures and hand waving motions at you before you can move the conversation on...!
While say... environments themselves have not aged well, I do have to say that the character models are all right, and the particle effects off of various things look good, like the floating twilight squares or the glowies coming off of Ordonia's light ball. the animations are also pretty good, besides mabye a couple of things looking a lil' awkward on Epona.
At any rate, I'll do another session with an update on another day... maybe one where my capture card doesn't want to be a giant dick and I can actually get an audience so I don't feel so wound up about not spending enough time with people.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: Soren on April 21, 2015, 09:16:05 PM
The thing about this game is not just the padding, but the laborious nature of the padding. I -KNOW- there's 50 rupees in Link's basement that I could use to bypass money farming for the slingshot, but I am immediatley denied. I know I have to catch a fish for the cat to get it to go back to the item store, but it won't actually do so unless I talk to the shop keeper first. I know I have to get the basket using the hawk, but again... the basket doesn't spawn unless I talk to people and do cutscene stuff. Even when you have read dialogue and want to hit A to get to the next bit, you have to wait for NPCs to do their silent gestures and hand waving motions at you before you can move the conversation on...!
This a million times. There's a reason I never got out of the village on my first playthrough. And it's the same reason why now, I barely feel invested in the game even though I've managed to get farther than that initial playthrough. Sure, the game might open up and become this great, rewarding experience. But when the first 2 hours of the game are so underwhelming, you just sit there looking at your backlog and say "there's something else I can play that won't bum me out immediately." And changes are it's true.
I'll try and keep playing.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: Evan_B on April 22, 2015, 08:48:29 AM
I remember being pretty resilient when I first got the game, so even though it took a long time the opening moments felt really rewarding for me. The characters become very ingrained in your mind and the mission feels a lot more clear. I also think the gameplay elements serve as a nice way to transition the player from "this is the life of farm-boy Link" into "this is a boy with a justifiable reason to be venturing out into the world". Whole some people call the opening area padding, I see it as a way to ease the player into the world and the story. As for how the material gates itself- I this that's a bit unfortunate, seeing how the game might be hard to get back into with that mindset, but it doesn't really matter much to me. I play games to relax, and I have a fairly decent memory when it comes to the progression of things, so the gated events moved very smoothly upon subsequent playthroughs, it wasn't a source of aggravation. Again, this game does hold a special place in my heart for reasons I haven't yet discussed, so that's just my opinion.
As for the first and second dungeons- the thing I truly love about this game was how, even with its dark and muddy environments and textures, the dungeons are a tour de force of various elements. Rooms share themes but have vastly different geography. In the first dungeon alone you duck in and out of a windy cavern as you solve puzzles, exploring dark, dank portions while climbing on vines and staying out in bright areas. Plus, the monkey mechanic really drives this continuous sense of progression while you also are subtly guided through the experience. In the second dungeon, you have two open areas where you get to flex your skills with the dungeon item, and also wade (literally) through these vertical sequences in your iron boots. It was really fantastic for the atmosphere and Twilight Princess also used it's prerequisite items just as heavily in dungeons as the unlocked dungeon items themselves. Though neither of the two bosses are particularly difficult to defeat, they are suitably spectacular and very enjoyable. It all leads to a pretty thrilling exchange between you and King Bulbin that closes out the story arc for the first part of the game quite well.
Twilight Princess does feel very episodic in nature- there are many mini-stories unfolding in the world as you progress and all of them feel directly influenced by Link's potential and interaction. I think that Ordon and Kakariko are a nice introduction because they feature many of the most endearing characters and story elements. It is vastly different and I like that every area is introduced twice by the Twilight Mechanic- there are parts that feel inaccessible as Wolf or normal Link that are fresh and free as the other, and the idea of banishing the Twilight makes you feel like you've accomplished something as a gamer and a character. I also think that's a good place to end my current thoughts, and I'll return after the next major episode of the story- the path to the Master Sword.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: noname2200 on April 22, 2015, 02:26:37 PM
Where is the Zelda love? I'm having a blast! Twilight Princess tries some risky things with some of its dungeons, and it doesn't always work, but it's still a good time. I just finished the very different Temple of Time, which has some very clever puzzles which are a little tedious in execution.
I think others have already voiced my pet enthusiasm killer: the opening is a big, unavoidable Like Like that instead of eating your shield sucks out the player's will to continue the game. I soldiered through on my first playthrough because I was eager to play a new Zelda on my new console, but I've never been able to get through it again after that first playthrough even knowing that some pretty good dungeons (and bad overworld) await. I haven't gotten through it for this Retroactive yet either. Not sure I will.
While I've always defended the slower intro to this game, it's becoming very difficult to justify it now. When I last played Twilight Princess, I was fourteen years old, and now at twenty-two I feel like my time is being disrespected as the game asks me to herd goats twice, direct a falcon twice, and catch fish for a cat twice. None of these actions are relevant for the entire rest of the game after this tutorial is over, although it is cute how an NPC uses the falcon against you later after you basically teach it to him.
Hey now, goat herding matters later. Ten hours later and fifty hours later, but later nonetheless!
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: Darkurai the Oracle Pony on April 22, 2015, 07:47:43 PM
Holy **** I just burned a guy's house down
(http://i.imgur.com/jlj2ptk.jpg)
I'M THE MANIAC
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: TK Thunder on April 27, 2015, 09:40:29 AM
After finishing the Arbitors Grounds yesterday, I was reminded how many of the special weapons later in the game were new to the series or at least rare. The always enjoyed using the spinner, but if I recall, it's not used much outside of that temple (I might be wrong on that since I haven't played it in so long). I'm looking forward to pushing through these last few temples. Not to mention...SNOWBOARDING and YETIS.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: TrueNerd on April 28, 2015, 01:15:52 PM
So yesterday I picked up my save file that I had randomly started two years ago. I had left off right before you had to melt Zora's Domain.
So, some impressions on continuing my second playthrough of this game.
1) The Wii controls suuuuuck. I don't recall them sucking like this my first time through the game, but I was still very much in the honeymoon phase with the Wii and its crazy controllers at that point (I got both the Wii and TP on launch day) which may have effected things. I'm also sitting much further away from my TV than the first time I played this, that might also be an issue. Anyway, the game consistently doesn't register sword swings and it is really annoying. The pointer stuff works fine though.
2) I flip flop between thinking the game looks really good or really ****. I think the Twilight World looks pretty great, if maybe a bit monotonous. The normal overworld mostly looks good but every now and again I see textures that look straight up N64-esque. For example, looking at the waterfall in Lake Hylia from across the lake is not good.
3) Collecting the light tears, at least around Lake Hylia, is tedious and unintuitive. Spent waaaaay too long stumbling around trying to find them (hint! one of them is at the castle for some stupid reason!). Almost gave up on the game during this.
4) I recall the stagecoach escort mission (among other set pieces) being one of my favorite sections of this game and playing it again, I was still impressed with the tension and action it provides but was let down by the controls and the sad realization about how very scripted it is. There's a couple "gates" the game throws up that you can't pass unless you kill a certain enemy at a certain time and he keeps coming back until you do it right. That was too bad.
5) The cutscenes, at least the ones I saw yesterday, are great. The one that plays after you get all the light tears around Lake Hylia is so bizarre and unsettling. There was another that I genuinely laughed at. The rest were at the very least well shot and the characters all "act" well even if their design isn't always great.
I admittedly just said mostly negative things here, and yet I mostly enjoyed my time with it yesterday and I wasn't even going through a dungeon or anything. I would absolutely buy a HD (or 3D, but preferably HD) remake with better controls, be them either buttons or Motion Plus.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: TrueNerd on April 28, 2015, 01:21:45 PM
Also, it kind of blows my mind that this game is 8 1/2 years old.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: ClexYoshi on April 29, 2015, 12:07:32 AM
After finishing the Arbitors Grounds yesterday, I was reminded how many of the special weapons later in the game were new to the series or at least rare. The always enjoyed using the spinner, but if I recall, it's not used much outside of that temple (I might be wrong on that since I haven't played it in so long). I'm looking forward to pushing through these last few temples. Not to mention...SNOWBOARDING and YETIS.
Spinner is used exactly 2 places on the overworld and nowhere else, if memory serves. Dominion Rod is an equally useless waste of space, as is Clawshot no. 2. in my opinion, the worst Zelda items are the ones you only want to use in context sensitive situations or spots where it is obviously very scripted that you do so. usually these come in the form of some sort of rod (Rod of Seasons, Cane of Pacci, Dominion Rod, sand rod, etc.)
I kinda feel iron boots fall into this as well, but at least you get those so early that there's a LOT of context to use them in between the magnets, sumo wrestling gorons, traversing water, and seeing how badly link can be weighed down by his sins. I used to go out in the super snowy areas wearing the red tunic without money, carrying the ball and chain, and wearing the iron boots to see if I could completely encumber Link, but... there's only so much slowness that can be had before the encumbring effects of these items stack up.
I really do want to bring special attention to the ball and chain, though. it is one of the most inventive and amazing items they have ever put in a legend of Zelda game. it is a very effective mid-ranged weapon and short ranged crowd control tool, it renders a good bit of what one would do with bombs and a couple of other things totally obsolete, it bends video game logic and suspension of disbelief to their absolute limits, and... sadly, I can't find the accompanying tumblr GIF, but you can do a rave dance party with the ball and chain.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: ClexYoshi on April 29, 2015, 03:00:09 AM
found iiiiit~! http://steviesomethin.tumblr.com/post/72505374804/link-no-limit (Make sure you mute the music player at the bottom of the page.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: Kobeskillz on April 29, 2015, 11:28:14 AM
This game is going to get crapped on by the guys but besides the slow opening and the rupee messages I'm enjoying the game. The waggle controls don't bother me at all and the pointer for arrows and hookshot works great.
This game feel somewhere along the lines of Nintendo trying to satisfy OoT fans and their own creative needs and they got stuff in the middle probably not appeasing neither.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: Darkurai the Oracle Pony on April 29, 2015, 05:04:27 PM
So you know the Mortal Draw? The hidden skill you receive that does massive damage if you attack while your sword is sheathed?
That can beat the mini-boss of the Ice Dungeon (the one you get the Ball and Chain from) in a single hit. I discovered that the first time I played the game, and to this day don't know anything else about that boss since I defeated it in seconds.
I still haven't decided whether I like this.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: pokepal148 on April 29, 2015, 06:36:31 PM
So you know the Mortal Draw? The hidden skill you receive that does massive damage if you attack while your sword is sheathed?
That can beat the mini-boss of the Ice Dungeon (the one you get the Ball and Chain from) in a single hit. I discovered that the first time I played the game, and to this day don't know anything else about that boss since I defeated it in seconds.
I still haven't decided whether I like this.
Wait... What??? I hated that boss!!!
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: v1perz53 on April 30, 2015, 12:34:10 AM
So after a year and a half of listening to RFN, this RetroActive finally got me to stop lurking and make a forum account. I've been meaning to finally get through this game for years now, so I figured this was as good a reason as any. I first got Twilight Princess right when I was finally able to get a Wii after the launch scarcity, and I was so excited to play it since Wind Waker was my absolute favorite game at the time. But when I started it, I just couldn't get into it. Absolutely hated the motion controls (basically holds true for every game since, I have wrist issues that make it very uncomfortable to hold a Wiimote + nunchuck combo), the game was so much uglier than Wind Waker's gorgeous cell shaded graphics, and I had so much else to play at the time.
Fast forward to now, I decided to give this another shot, but say screw you to motion controls and grab the GameCube version (man was that expensive, but nice to have in my collection finally). First impressions, this game looks so much better in 480p since I got a Wii component cable vs. using a composite back in the day. Still quite ugly overall, but at least the text is sharp. Anyway, this game definitely has a rough start. That cat fishing part is such a dumb design decision, I spent like 10 minutes trying to chase the cat across the bridge and back home because it totally seems like you could do that. Going into this with an open mind though, and at least I don't have to use waggle controls this time. For all its faults, at least the Wii U game pad made Nintendo games have standard control schemes again, and for that I am forever grateful.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: pokepal148 on April 30, 2015, 01:08:02 PM
say what you will about the motion controls the aiming is actually better then Skyward Sword /fact
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: Kobeskillz on April 30, 2015, 01:49:13 PM
say what you will about the motion controls the aiming is actually better then Skyward Sword /fact
That's true. I think the reason being is that Princess uses the pointer and Skyward uses motion plus for pointer.
That's why you always have to keep pressing down on the d pad.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: v1perz53 on April 30, 2015, 03:15:17 PM
The aiming with WiiMote was the only thing I thought was better about Twilight Princess on Wii vs GameCube. It felt pretty solid and far more accurate than using the stick to aim in Wind Waker (what I was coming from) and being able to aim while moving was really useful. But to me, better camera control, true multiple item equip at once, and not having to deal with "shake, shake, shake" sword combat makes the GCN version feel better in the end. I understand the motion controls for the sword in Skyward (even if I prefer it was standard controls), but in Twilight it is just shaking the controller causes what is equivalent to a single button input, and doesn't offer any benefit besides making my wrist really hurt after a while (though all wii games do this to me).
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: Kobeskillz on April 30, 2015, 06:05:29 PM
The aiming with WiiMote was the only thing I thought was better about Twilight Princess on Wii vs GameCube. It felt pretty solid and far more accurate than using the stick to aim in Wind Waker (what I was coming from) and being able to aim while moving was really useful. But to me, better camera control, true multiple item equip at once, and not having to deal with "shake, shake, shake" sword combat makes the GCN version feel better in the end. I understand the motion controls for the sword in Skyward (even if I prefer it was standard controls), but in Twilight it is just shaking the controller causes what is equivalent to a single button input, and doesn't offer any benefit besides making my wrist really hurt after a while (though all wii games do this to me).
If the GameCube game had supports widescreen I would have gotten that one. But as it is widescreen is too important to me.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: Fatty The Hutt on April 30, 2015, 07:03:14 PM
I found the motion control sword play immersive and fun. I am well aware that it essentially replaces a button press in this game as in many other Wii games but I liked that about the Wii in general. It was different, it was intuitive and it was fun. It has been a few years since I played the game, though. Ooccoo is the scariest character of all times. Ooccoo for Smash!
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: pokepal148 on April 30, 2015, 08:28:53 PM
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: pokepal148 on April 30, 2015, 11:09:23 PM
In a hypothetical wii remote non motion setup what button would be used for the sword? Because I'm pretty sure they are all taken. There is a setting for aiming with the analog stick instead though.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: v1perz53 on May 01, 2015, 12:30:50 AM
In a hypothetical wii remote non motion setup what button would be used for the sword? Because I'm pretty sure they are all taken. There is a setting for aiming with the analog stick instead though.
Really the only button on the Wii controls I could see changing would be to switch the first person camera button (C on the nunchuck I think?) to down on the D-pad, then make B the sword and C the item button. Not sure if it is fully necessary though.
So after playing through like 2 hours of the GameCube version, I decided to grab my Wii disc to see if I felt the same as I did years ago. First impressions of the Wii version are that it is nice playing this on Wii U so that I can have it widescreen without changing my TV settings, that I still hate motion sword control and find Wiimote + nunchuck to be uncomfortable but that neither is as bad as I remember, and that pointing is pretty solid. But I could never play the Wii version ever for one reason. That damn fairy pointer noise. Within 10 seconds it was driving me crazy. Every slight movement of my right hand. I realized I was desperately trying to hold my hand still to avoid that awful chime. It is insufferable, especially in a game where you are forced to move the Wiimote frequently. How in gods name did they not add an option to at least turn the sound of the pointer off.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: ClexYoshi on May 01, 2015, 09:56:54 AM
Here's a question for the lot of you folks!
What is it that makes people think characters like Navi, Fi, or Ezlo are annoying but makes Shortstack Waifu so endearing? I have my own answer for this, but i'd like to hear from some of you out in the thread... or if you do think that Shortstack Waifu is annoying, explain why!
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: Mop it up on May 01, 2015, 06:53:30 PM
The funny thing about the ball 'n chain item is that for some reason, this was the first time that I really started to question how Link could carry all those items. It's far from the first unrealistic item in the series as well, as even the original game had large unwieldy items like the ladder and raft. And stuff like the iron boots probably should have brought up questions as well, like how they weigh Link down only when he wears them and not when they're stored... wherever he keeps them. For some reason however, the ball 'n chain just feels way more over-the-top than anything else.
However, that also makes it one of my faves. I like how they didn't care how unrealistic it was, they put it in because it's fun. I'd like to see more of that kind of thinking in the series, and in games in general.
Even if some items weren't very useful outside of the dungeons, I'm okay with that because they are used well within the dungeons. A large part of the reason I play Zelda games is for the dungeons, and I feel this game has one of the best sets in the series. The spinner dungeon seemed so neat the first time through, and the item actually can be used anywhere even if it doesn't do much. They probably could have come up with some other use for the dominion rod though; I think it'd be cool if it could also be used to control an enemy.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: Evan_B on May 02, 2015, 08:25:13 AM
What is it that makes people think characters like Navi, Fi, or Ezlo are annoying but makes Shortstack Waifu so endearing? I have my own answer for this, but i'd like to hear from some of you out in the thread... or if you do think that Shortstack Waifu is annoying, explain why!
Ezlo is the best companion out of all those you listed so I don't really understand your question. I used to like Midna very much but my fondness for her has diminished somewhat in recen years and probably also because of Hyrule Warriors, where she is absolute garbage.
But to be honest, the best companions, in my opinion, also serve an important role in the story in addition to being useful. Midna and Ezlo's abilities (wolf combat, teleportation, follow-me technique in Midna's case, Minish spell and parachute for Ezll) are both key exploration and puzzle-solving devices in addition to the characters' story function. Both characters are very different from how we usually perceive Link and discovering their personalities and flaws is interesting. With Navi and Fi there are no flaws- they exist only as guides and serve little purpose outside of that. Sure, Fi being a part of the Master Sword is interesting, but her abilities (like dowsing... Ugh) and character don't grow at all throughout the story.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: ClexYoshi on May 08, 2015, 06:36:08 AM
this thread kinda went dead...!
At any rate, I kinda dragged myself through that first tear of light collection and dungeon, then switched over to play a file I had around the middle of the game that I quit the last time I played the game, and then I fooled around with my completed file a bit to kinda get the full range of the game and kinda just fool around, and i am going to stand by a lot of what I've said in this thread. the dungeon stuff is really good, but I really think this game has a biiiiiiiiig problem with items in the inventory not being all that useful outside of their classic contexts. Epona feels unwieldly and unintuitive compared to travel via the wolf, and a lot of Twilight Princess comes down to it being the inflated version of the Legend of Zelda experience.
Whatever it is that you value that post 16-bit Legend of Zelda games do is proportionate to what you will get out of The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. I maintain that 3D Zelda is better left as a one and done myself. while there's exploration and such to get goodies, I really don't feel like they're fun to speedrun or that there's a lot of wiggle room to try the game in a new and interesting way besides maybe a 3 heart challenge? I dunno. maybe it's also indicative on why I'm really not all that excited for the new Legend of Zelda game coming up. I like the franchise, but i'm not over the moon for these games like others are.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: ejamer on May 08, 2015, 07:57:29 AM
And so has my free time after a promising start. Travelling for work, sick kids, and extra work in the evenings have killed my console gaming time.
That said, if I really wanted to get further in the game it could have happened. But the slow start has left me kind of neutral about making an effort to keep playing. It will happen eventually, but probably not in time for Retroactive.
(On the upside, I have enjoyed playing Xenogears on my PSP Go while travelling.)
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: bionicjim on May 09, 2015, 05:11:08 PM
I've been wandering around forever with Rs.300 and am wondering how to get a larger wallet :P
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: ClexYoshi on May 10, 2015, 10:59:22 AM
I've been wandering around forever with Rs.300 and am wondering how to get a larger wallet :P:
you know Agatha? that really creepy as **** lil' girl they put in Hyrule Warriors for some reason? yeah, she gives you wallet upgrades for catching bugs, so... ENJOY THE BUG HUNT! :D
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: Evan_B on May 11, 2015, 03:21:32 AM
Whatever it is that you value that post 16-bit Legend of Zelda games do is proportionate to what you will get out of The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. I maintain that 3D Zelda is better left as a one and done myself.
But all the 3D Zelda titles are so vastly different from one another, as muh as (if not more than) 8-16 bit Zelda itself. As soon as you stop attempting to claim that Ocarina of Time is the pinnacle of the series (it's not- but it is a great entry in the non-linear subdivision of the series), the sooner you start appreciating 3D Zelda for its variety rather than how traditional the series plays.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: ClexYoshi on May 11, 2015, 09:48:23 PM
Whatever it is that you value that post 16-bit Legend of Zelda games do is proportionate to what you will get out of The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. I maintain that 3D Zelda is better left as a one and done myself.
But all the 3D Zelda titles are so vastly different from one another, as muh as (if not more than) 8-16 bit Zelda itself. As soon as you stop attempting to claim that Ocarina of Time is the pinnacle of the series (it's not- but it is a great entry in the non-linear subdivision of the series), the sooner you start appreciating 3D Zelda for its variety rather than how traditional the series plays.
But that's the thing; I actually really don't like Ocarina of time that much, inasmuch that it's kinda like LTTP but stretched out ad nauseum and disjointed in all sorts of ways.
I actually think I would have appreciated Twilight Princess a whole lot more if that rather than focusing on making hyrule field expansive that they would have focused on making hyrule field dense. I feel like when I play the 2D games, there's always landmarks about and that there's a little something hiding all over the place. A link between world's miamai babies actually reinforced that extra hardcore, as there was always a trick to getting them, they gave a clear audio and visual cue, and it really felt rewarding and not a complete chore to find them thanks to them not being locked down by something arbitrary like the time of day.
Like... if the Agatha side-quest was much more dense, I think I would have dug it a hell of a lot more. introduce it earlier in the game, tie more rewards to it, make the bug journal give you maybe clues to each species' behavior and general location and tie both combat and puzzle solving to finding them...! Agatha could still give the wallet rewards, but what if she also gave the red armor? or a rupee sword that shoots blade beams every swing at the cost of a rupee and that could be pointer aimed? or even a Rupee Bow that kinda is a subtle tribute to the original legend of zelda where link would shoot an arrow at the cost of a rupee? and for that matter, a rupee bomb bag that would let you pull out a bomb at the cost of rupees? Wind waker had on-demand explosions at the cost of rupees in the form of the tingle tuner!
Or maybe... maybe you make the reward for getting all the bugs an upgrade for the spinner that makes it move along the ground at the speeds it does when you stick it into a wall socket?
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: pokepal148 on May 12, 2015, 02:39:45 PM
Here's a fun hypothetical: should the gamecube version even have existed or should they have canned it and used the wii's extra horsepower to clean up some graphics or open up the field more and give the game gamecube controller support?
Whatever it is that you value that post 16-bit Legend of Zelda games do is proportionate to what you will get out of The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. I maintain that 3D Zelda is better left as a one and done myself.
But all the 3D Zelda titles are so vastly different from one another, as muh as (if not more than) 8-16 bit Zelda itself. As soon as you stop attempting to claim that Ocarina of Time is the pinnacle of the series (it's not- but it is a great entry in the non-linear subdivision of the series), the sooner you start appreciating 3D Zelda for its variety rather than how traditional the series plays.
Twilight Princess is easily the closest of the bunch to Ocarina (well, you could argue Majora due to that game recycling assets) but even then the game is ultimately
I haven't finished Majora's Mask (I plan to return to it after retroactive) but Ocarina of Time has alot of problems with consistent dungeon design and aspects that haven't aged well, Wind Waker is blatantly rushed and sometimes feels like, to keep within theme, a ship taking in water, and Skyward Sword is consistent in that outside of the Desert areas
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: pokepal148 on May 12, 2015, 02:42:34 PM
Here's a fun hypothetical: should the gamecube version even have existed or should they have canned it and used the wii's extra horsepower to clean up some graphics or open up the field more and give the game gamecube controller support?
Whatever it is that you value that post 16-bit Legend of Zelda games do is proportionate to what you will get out of The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. I maintain that 3D Zelda is better left as a one and done myself.
But all the 3D Zelda titles are so vastly different from one another, as muh as (if not more than) 8-16 bit Zelda itself. As soon as you stop attempting to claim that Ocarina of Time is the pinnacle of the series (it's not- but it is a great entry in the non-linear subdivision of the series), the sooner you start appreciating 3D Zelda for its variety rather than how traditional the series plays.
Twilight Princess is easily the closest of the bunch to Ocarina (well, you could argue Majora due to that game recycling assets) but even then the game is ultimately
I haven't finished Majora's Mask (I plan to return to it after retroactive) but Ocarina of Time has alot of problems with consistent dungeon design and aspects that haven't aged well, Wind Waker is blatantly rushed and sometimes feels like, to keep within theme, a ship taking in water, and Skyward Sword is consistent in that outside of the Desert areas it consistently feels like a chore to play.
note to self, don't post in retroactive b4 work, I'll get back to this thought.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: pokepal148 on May 12, 2015, 05:43:33 PM
Here's a fun hypothetical: should the gamecube version even have existed or should they have canned it and used the wii's extra horsepower to clean up some graphics or open up the field more and give the game gamecube controller support?
Whatever it is that you value that post 16-bit Legend of Zelda games do is proportionate to what you will get out of The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. I maintain that 3D Zelda is better left as a one and done myself.
But all the 3D Zelda titles are so vastly different from one another, as muh as (if not more than) 8-16 bit Zelda itself. As soon as you stop attempting to claim that Ocarina of Time is the pinnacle of the series (it's not- but it is a great entry in the non-linear subdivision of the series), the sooner you start appreciating 3D Zelda for its variety rather than how traditional the series plays.
Twilight Princess is easily the closest of the bunch to Ocarina (well, you could argue Majora due to that game recycling assets) but even then the game is ultimately
I haven't finished Majora's Mask (I plan to return to it after retroactive) but Ocarina of Time has alot of problems with consistent dungeon design and aspects that haven't aged well, Wind Waker is blatantly rushed and sometimes feels like, to keep within theme, a ship taking in water, and Skyward Sword is consistent in that outside of the Desert areas it consistently feels like a chore to play.
(note to self, don't post in retroactive b4 work, I'll get back to this thought.) (Right, back) Twilight Princess never seems to go sour. There are a few small bumps in the road like the intro, that third wolf segment dragging on way too long and the owl statue hunt but none of that is as prevalent as the sailing and over reliance on bad platforming mechanics in WW or OOT's uninteresting dungeon design (the water temple is one of the GOOD ones in that regard) or Skyward Sword's overuse of motion+.
Heck, on that note, am I the only one who thinks Twilight Princess is the first 3d Zelda to have consistently GOOD dungeon design?
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: Mop it up on May 12, 2015, 07:47:22 PM
Whatever it is that you value that post 16-bit Legend of Zelda games do is proportionate to what you will get out of The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. I maintain that 3D Zelda is better left as a one and done myself.
But all the 3D Zelda titles are so vastly different from one another, as much as (if not more than) 8-16 bit Zelda itself.
I agree, I've always felt the Zelda series games have a lot of differences from each other, even the 2D ones, and I've never really understood complaints of them being stale or samey.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: pokepal148 on May 12, 2015, 08:42:30 PM
There are actually people in the Zelda fanbase who get riled up because you needed 5 pieces of heart to get a full container in this game, I'M NOT EVEN KIDDING!
Also I like how Link just takes the Master Sword with him for the hell of it. There was no given reason at the time for him to take it, he just does.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on May 13, 2015, 03:08:19 AM
I'm pretty sure there's a halfhearted (on the writer's part) comment from Midna about the sword accepting Link as its master, and they say earlier that the sword can repel evil (including Wolf form Link), so I'd argue they adequately establish why Link keeps the Master Sword.
The third tear collection sequence and the stuff before the sky temple (aside from the hidden village shootout) are the weakest segments of the game, save for the intro. The final boss(es) are a bit sloppy in execution IMO as well compared with the other bosses in the game, like they totally forgot to polish the beginning and end and/or forgot they were 40 hours apart in a playthrough
Midna: Keep doing what you've been doing, only in wolf form! Me: Arrows with a wolf--nope. Attack--nope. OH--that thing i did a few times 25 hours ago, never as a wolf? Okay, I'll "keep" doing that.
Also, that horrible horse combat makes a return. Should feel epic, but instead is just janky.
Dungeons are clever and distinct, though, if sometimes tedious, and the storytelling remains better than I had remembered throughout.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: thunderknee on May 13, 2015, 01:51:35 PM
I played Twilight Princess with some friends back when the WII launched 8+ years ago, but now I am playing the Gamecube version by myself and it is great. The game feels like it was made for the Gamecube controller. I haven't mind the slow start to the game so far. The characters are interesting and the game play is fun.
I like the settle foreshadowing from Ilia's dialogue to Link about treating Epona better and not just using her as tool. Then shortly after that, Link becomes the mount and tool of Midna's agenda. I completely missed this comparison of wolf Link and Epona during my first play through.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: ClexYoshi on May 14, 2015, 11:00:27 AM
Whatever it is that you value that post 16-bit Legend of Zelda games do is proportionate to what you will get out of The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. I maintain that 3D Zelda is better left as a one and done myself.
But all the 3D Zelda titles are so vastly different from one another, as much as (if not more than) 8-16 bit Zelda itself.
I agree, I've always felt the Zelda series games have a lot of differences from each other, even the 2D ones, and I've never really understood complaints of them being stale or samey.
I guess what I was trying to say is that everybody is praising Dungeon design here, and that's usually one of 3D Zelda's strongest suits is the way they've managed to keep the formula of "Stumble way through dungeon until new traversal method is found, use said traversal method to beat up big monster at end of labyrinth" nice and strong... although, to get off topic, I think the reason the first Girahim boss in Skyward Sword was so fresh and impressive was that he wasn't a boss based aorund shooting him in the face with the beetle or something, but is rather a test of your ability to effectively sword or use some of link's other abilities.
but yeah, 3D Zelda dungeon design is a great formula. it's why it's amazing in Shantae, especially because they let you use the transformative dances/Pirate items to find secrets in the rooms you've already explored, like extra money, or going back to the Saliva Island dungeon in Pirate's curse and being able to find that easter egg of the dribble fountain for easy money! The difference with SHantae is while there are points of chattny NPCs, that can be skipped, and things still feel dense and action packed (besides maybe flying around as Harpy Shantae to collect crap Wayforward hid in the sky in some maps...)
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: ejamer on May 19, 2015, 02:47:18 PM
So after just not finding time for Twilight Princess for a month or so, I'm back on the horse... er, wolf!
Finished the first dungeon, and well on my way to entering the second. Controls are starting to feel more comfortable, although I'm still wishing they didn't use waggle for combat. It's not a good representation of what's happening on screen and feels kind of pointless. Other than that, everything seems to be looking up - despite feeling like it's a bit too much "Ocarina remake" for my liking... (That feeling might wear off, but is strong now because I just walked through Hyrule field and the world geography feels kind of samey.)
How long do we have before the actual discussion takes place on RFN?
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: pokepal148 on May 19, 2015, 02:53:59 PM
2 weeks dahling... tick tock
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: ejamer on May 19, 2015, 07:22:54 PM
Oh, I'm sure that with my current rate of progress I'll be done by then. (Or maybe just about to start the second dungeon... Yeah, that's more likely.)
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: redfieldjames on May 19, 2015, 07:51:57 PM
This is the first time I've actually played Twilight Princess. I missed out on it on release because, well... life. I coincidentally picked it up this winter and started playing through it before discovering RFN. Having just completed it, here are my thoughts. I should say that I've played through all other major Zelda titles, outside of 4 Swords and the two DS titles.
Graphics and art design; I absolutely loved the art style of this game. I continuously was reminded of Studio Ghibli and to me that's high praise. Honestly, this is my favorite art style in a Zelda game, ever. Despite being released almost a decade ago, the graphics have held up in my opinion, which is even more surprising to me when I realize that this was developed for the Gamecube.
World and Dungeon design; This is tricky. I realize that Nintendo "flipped" the game on the Wii to match the Wii-mote (since most people are right handed... or something). Being a veteran of the series, this messed me up significantly. Things just aren't were they're supposed to be. The castle is in the right place, but other than that, everything else seems... wrong? Also, despite the over world being fairly massive, it just feels... empty. On the flip side, I found the dungeons to be excellent and clever... and that's more important to me.
Controls; I can not stress enough how much the controls for the Wii continuously frustrated and infuriated me. Moving and aiming items are fine... the waggle sword fighting is what killed me time and time again. Example;
Me: "Now would be a good time for a shield bash!" [Moves the nunchuck forward] Game: "Spin attack!"
-or-
Me: "Keese! Hit it! Hit it!" [Furiously shaking the Wii-mote wildly] Game: "Hold on, I'm going to delay that attack for a second... gotta be sure you want to attack." [Link gets hit, then swings, then falls off the ledge.]
It doesn't feel like a Zelda game, and certainly not a Nintendo game. Please don't get my started on the controls for horseback fighting. Very loose, very frustrating. Also, the Navi pointer thing is atroicious.
Other gripes or commendations; This game is chocked full of fetch quests. Off the top of my head - Golden bugs, poe souls, tears of light, howling stones, golden wolves, owl statues... I mean, I know that Zelda is ultimately a game based upon "go find a key to open this door" or "get an item to pass this obstacle." But Twilight Princess just serves it all up unapologetically. I tend to be a completionist, but not this game.
I love Midna. Best Zelda sidekick ever.
Overall; I'm pretty conflicted about this game. I imagine that if I had the Gamecube version I would feel much more positive about this game. I cannot stress enough how frustrating the waggle controls were to me. I played through Skyward Sword previously and though I have issue with that game, the sword controls were actually enjoyable to me. It's just not implemented very well in this game.
The Internet is full of rumors regarding a possible port of this game to the 3DS. I'm not holding my breath, but I'd actually look forward to it. A standard control scheme would make this one of my favorite Zelda games off all time.
Thanks for reading!
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: ClexYoshi on May 19, 2015, 11:12:51 PM
Graphics and art design; I absolutely loved the art style of this game. I continuously was reminded of Studio Ghibli and to me that's high praise. Honestly, this is my favorite art style in a Zelda game, ever. Despite being released almost a decade ago, the graphics have held up in my opinion, which is even more surprising to me when I realize that this was developed for the Gamecube.
Time to tell Level 5 they're nothing special and that Nintendo made the Ni no Kuni killer 4 years before Ni no Kuni without the huge art budget put into the game!
RedfieldJames, let's agree to disagree on that point. I do like your write up, but uh... while the models were a lil' more expressive than I remember them being, this is the LoZ game that I feel is probably the most dated by it's art direction besides maybe the NES Zelda titles?
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: redfieldjames on May 20, 2015, 02:35:59 AM
... while the models were a lil' more expressive than I remember them being, this is the LoZ game that I feel is probably the most dated by it's art direction besides maybe the NES Zelda titles?
I honestly would say that the original LoZ holds up well... it's got a certain charm. Link's Adventure though... even I wouldn't go as far to defend that one.
But preferences are preferences. Question for you and everyone else, what's your favorite Zelda, and why? Follow up, if it's not Twilight Princess, what is the one thing that keeps TP from being that game?
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: ejamer on May 20, 2015, 09:02:18 AM
... while the models were a lil' more expressive than I remember them being, this is the LoZ game that I feel is probably the most dated by it's art direction besides maybe the NES Zelda titles?
I honestly would say that the original LoZ holds up well... it's got a certain charm. Link's Adventure though... even I wouldn't go as far to defend that one.
But preferences are preferences. Question for you and everyone else, what's your favorite Zelda, and why? Follow up, if it's not Twilight Princess, what is the one thing that keeps TP from being that game?
Caveat: still very early in the game so take opinions with a grain of salt.
Re: Graphics
I agree with ClexYoshi - the graphics in Twilight Princess don't hold up well for me. They aren't bad, but also haven't really impressed early on and have that "dated" feel that always seems to come from going for a realistic style instead of trusting your art team to create something memorable. Texture work seems particularly rough in spots. Having only recently played Wind Waker (the GameCube version, which still looks fantastic) the dated graphics here were even more noticeable.
Also, the Hyrule Field "reveal" early on was so disheartening. It's a big, mostly empty field. Maybe impressive on N64 when 3D worlds were new and the lack of fog was a big deal... not so exciting many years later.
Re: Favorite Zelda Game
My favorite is probably Majora's Mask, if only because the idea of a living town where each person has a regular routine, a story of their own, and requires actual interaction is such a great change of pace. Trying to find out what the story is for each person and step in to help them was really interesting and enjoyable for me. Normally the worlds in a Zelda game are large, but lacking interesting things to do unless you are following the expected path to progress the story... I felt like Majora's Mask reduced the size but packed the game with more to do. (There are plenty of other flaws in this game, but the fact it tries to be different makes it memorable to me.)
Second favorite is Link to the Past, which strikes a nice balance between encouraging world exploration to find little secrets and treasures, and following the expected path. I suspect that ranking it second is colored by nostalgia... but still think it holds up well many years later.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: redfieldjames on May 20, 2015, 01:02:48 PM
My favorite is probably Majora's Mask, if only because the idea of a living town where each person has a regular routine, a story of their own, and requires actual interaction is such a great change of pace...
Second favorite is Link to the Past, which strikes a nice balance between encouraging world exploration to find little secrets and treasures, and following the expected path. I suspect that ranking it second is colored by nostalgia... but still think it holds up well many years later.
Those are both great games. I don't think nostalgia is blinding you in regards to your ranking of LttP so highly. I have friends that rank it their #1 game of all time! Speaking about the thrill of exploration from LttP --- that's what I miss the most from the more recent Zelda games, especially Twilight Princess. The first few hours are horrible to get through, but the game never really feels like it lets go. It's kind of frustrating.
I don't really play Zelda games for their story, they're all pretty much the same (props to Majora's Mask for being the major exception)... What I love most about this series originally was the sense of exploration and mystery. Take this sword, and go off into the unknown.
Good picks!
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: pokepal148 on May 20, 2015, 02:31:11 PM
My favorite is probably Majora's Mask, if only because the idea of a living town where each person has a regular routine, a story of their own, and requires actual interaction is such a great change of pace...
Second favorite is Link to the Past, which strikes a nice balance between encouraging world exploration to find little secrets and treasures, and following the expected path. I suspect that ranking it second is colored by nostalgia... but still think it holds up well many years later.
Those are both great games. I don't think nostalgia is blinding you in regards to your ranking of LttP so highly. I have friends that rank it their #1 game of all time! Speaking about the thrill of exploration from LttP --- that's what I miss the most from the more recent Zelda games, especially Twilight Princess. The first few hours are horrible to get through, but the game never really feels like it lets go. It's kind of frustrating.
I don't really play Zelda games for their story, they're all pretty much the same (props to Majora's Mask for being the major exception)... What I love most about this series originally was the sense of exploration and mystery. Take this sword, and go off into the unknown.
Good picks!
Try Skyward Sword, that game never lets jou go.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: redfieldjames on May 20, 2015, 04:59:54 PM
I played it when it came out... funny thing is I don't actually remember much about it. I think I enjoyed it more than TP, but honestly besides some of the boss battles and controls, nothing about that game stands out in my memory of being paticularly incredible. I may have to dust it off and give it another play through...
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on May 21, 2015, 11:30:14 PM
Hey RAers! I wanted you to be the first to know that we are going to be doing this edition of RetroActive as a special LIVE event on Saturday, May 30th (time will be announced in the next couple of days as we finalize the details). I just recorded a 100% rambling mini-episode to announce it to all our subscribers this weekend. Unfortunately, that's also to explain why we don't have a real show for you this weekend, but hopefully this live show makes up for that! There is so much great discussion here already, and we hope some of you will call in next Saturday to chat with us about Twilight Princess!
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: ClexYoshi on May 22, 2015, 12:03:44 AM
Hey RAers! I wanted you to be the first to know that we are going to be doing this edition of RetroActive as a special LIVE event on Saturday, May 30th (time will be announced in the next couple of days as we finalize the details). I just recorded a 100% rambling mini-episode to announce it to all our subscribers this weekend. Unfortunately, that's also to explain why we don't have a real show for you this weekend, but hopefully this live show makes up for that! There is so much great discussion here already, and we hope some of you will call in next Saturday to chat with us about Twilight Princess!
Actually, I probably would have been upset at this timing even if I wasn't going to a con in seattle, as I live within less than an hour's driving distance from one of the locations of the Nintendo World Championship qualifiers and I would have been waking up early and standing in long lines to do that, and then probably been visiting my cousin since he lives like... 5 minutes away from that best buy.
anyhow, have fun, kids!
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: pokepal148 on May 22, 2015, 12:30:24 AM
Yeah, me get a Saturday off..... not happening.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: TK Thunder on May 26, 2015, 12:15:35 PM
Hey RAers! I wanted you to be the first to know that we are going to be doing this edition of RetroActive as a special LIVE event on Saturday, May 30th (time will be announced in the next couple of days as we finalize the details). I just recorded a 100% rambling mini-episode to announce it to all our subscribers this weekend. Unfortunately, that's also to explain why we don't have a real show for you this weekend, but hopefully this live show makes up for that! There is so much great discussion here already, and we hope some of you will call in next Saturday to chat with us about Twilight Princess!
Super bummed about the timing since I have to fill in at work on Saturday. I was actually hoping to call in to the show for the first time. That being said, I'm looking forward to this discussion. There so many incredible and varying opinions on this game.
I just wrapped up this game this past weekend and thought I'd share a couple of brief thoughts. First off, that ending was not memorable. I had completely forgotten everything from Hyrule Castle, including the boss fight. Princess Zelda seems like such a minor part in the entire story as she is barely a part of the game. The final boss fight was underwhelming and seemed a little too easy for my taste, especially the final sequence of the final boss fight It seems like that part was recycled for the final boss fight in Skyward Sword if I recall correctly.
I wasn't as down on the graphics like many on this forum have been. I still think it holds up fine nearly 9 years later. I also like that it seems so familiar to Ocarina of Time. OoT was a great game, so playing more of it is just fine with me. For the great expanse of Hyrule Field, there's isn't a lot to do out there. The dungeons are a lot of fun and creative (Snowpeak being my favorite). The controls, as with most opinions, are pretty intolerable. I did turn off the pointer this go-around, which seemed to help out a little. The music is great most of the time. So there are my brief final opinions on what in my opinion is one of the better Zelda titles to date. Majora's Mask is still my favorite.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: Darkurai the Oracle Pony on May 26, 2015, 01:16:58 PM
But Jonny! The qualifiers for Nintendo World Championships are Saturday!
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: pPatko on May 28, 2015, 04:57:36 AM
General impressions:Twilight Princess arrived at an interesting time in the Zelda series. Coming after the highly stylized Wind Waker, it makes sense that Nintendo wanted to see what they could do in a more traditional style using the extra horsepower of a console two generations beyond Ocarina Of Time. In the case of the Wii version, however, developer EAD added something entirely new to gaming as a whole in the way of motion controls. I've only just beaten the third dungeon but I can safely say, I regret not getting the GameCube version. I love using the pointer to aim but it seems pretty unanimous - the sword waggling is a huge drawback - especially after they got it so right in Skyward Sword IMO. That said, there are a lot of things EAD exceeded at. Though not as unnerving as Majora's Mask, the dark tone both graphically and aurally is effective and aesthetically pleasing. I particularly love the way the shadow realm feels. The music gets SO DARK and brooding. The cool glitchy SFX go well with the Tron-inspired neon and pixelized particle effects. I think the graphics have held up pretty well barring the odd texture. The bloom lighting is actually refreshing after not seeing so much of it these days. TP has some really endearing characters too - particularly Midna. Telma is another favourite - I like that she's portrayed in a fairly realistic style compared to others like the postman but it's a little jarring having such disparate designs one character to the next. I might have preferred a more lifelike approach like this overall. I agree that Hyrule field is just too sparse. I find myself plowing through it from departure point to destination rather than stopping to poke around and explore. Here's hoping they find a good balance in the next one! That's it for now!
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on May 28, 2015, 09:16:27 PM
In case you haven't seen it yet, the live event page is here:
And I just added details of how you could join Lindy for a freestyle rap battle version of Now Playing...
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: Sundoulos on May 30, 2015, 08:18:23 AM
I didn't get to play this as much as I would have liked due to the scheduling of vacations and RL responsibilitiesi. I had forgotten how much I liked this game, really. I know my 7 year-old son enjoyed watching me play the game. t occurred to me that I really hadn't introduced him to a Zelda game yet. I do think there are things/themes in Twilight Princess that are perhaps recycled or derivative, but if you are going to introduce someone to the Zelda franchise, TP isn't a bad way to go simply because it refines a lot of what came before in ALttP, OoT and WW. I happen to like all the "missions" and story vignettes of the early part of the game; it makes the game feel as if it is possible to digest this very large game in bite-sized chunks. It's not a bad jumping-on point for the series, honestly.
I think the "cynical" voice in Midna made the character more memorable; she's kind of an extension of what they were doing with Tetra in Wind Waker. Midna and Tetra are sort of the Han Solo characters of the Zelda universe. They're both mercenary characters whose comments can reflect what the player is thinking about the game (e.g. I remember Midna's commentary that the Ordonion townsfolk are idiots for leaving their windows open...or something like that), and it's an effective way to take a knowing wink to the player, serving the purpose of simultaneously informing the player while allowing them to suspend their disbelief.
It mostly makes me wonder what they were thinking when they went the other direction with Fi in Skyward Sword.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: TheAuthority on May 30, 2015, 09:55:50 AM
I'm travelling and will miss the live podcast but hoped to get in a few comments before it starts.
I never got into Twilight Princess for some reason back in 2006, and it has since sat at the top of the backlog of shame, so this retroactive provided me with the motivation to play it to the end.
On the whole I really enjoyed it, and regret not playing it when I bought it eight or nine years ago. As others have said it has some of the best Zelda dungeons. And contrary to some other opinions I think the graphics have aged mostly fine. In dungeons and in certain environments the graphics still look great, but in the twilight world especially it looks like, as Mr Lindemann said on the podcast, someone smeared Vaseline all over the screen. On the whole though I like the graphics. And Midna is comfortably the best sidekick character in any Zelda game.
The overall excellence of the game can override, but not hide, the many many niggling little flaws it has. Principally I think the problem is that of brevity. This game wastes so much time. The starter village made a really bad first impression when I first played it in the mid noughties. And having now finished the game it seems all the more absurd because it doesn't even teach you anything that you need. When do you ever use the hawk\basket trick trick again? Many of the in-between dungeon quests were unnecessary padding, but that isn't unusual in a Zelda. What really got on my nerves though is the constant interruptions to the flow of gameplay in the form of micro cutscenes. Yes Midna, I can see there is a f***ing open window. The game obtrusively holds your hand in a manner reminiscent of Skyward Sword.
A second major problem I found is the muddled storyline. I think it had the makings of a great story and it had some moments of real greatness but it just never did anything with them. For example there was a cool cutscene about a third into the game which established that the fused shadows were very dangerous and corruptive, but they never really went anywhere with that. And having Ganondorf pop out of nowhere as the big bad is just as feeble as having a game called the Legend of Zelda which barely features Zelda and doesn't really establish who she even is.
I think the game could have benefitted from some editing and a few months of extra work but I don't want to be too negative because of course I really enjoyed it, and that's the main thing. I suppose its just easier to start with 10\10 for a Zelda game and work backwards.
I'm in a bit of a hurry or I might have presented my thoughts a little clearer. Good luck with the podcast in a few hours guys.
Oh another thing. They seems very proud of their ability to flood the screen with characters in this game. Hundreds of spiders are not fun. They are a chore. Same goes for the puppets in the lost woods. They offer so little resistance they might as well not be there.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: ejamer on May 30, 2015, 10:28:17 AM
Well, I'm not going to finish the game before the discussion today - but feel like I've got a pretty reasonable chunk under my belt. We've (my kids are watching) just finished the desert dungeon this morning, and based on how full my item list is I'm guessing there isn't much more after chasing down the mirror pieces.
A lot of early impressions have stayed the same.
Graphic and world design are both fine, but don't push the bar (compared to other games of the time) and are both less interesting than what Wind Waker accomplished. Even my daughter (5) brought this point up, talking about how much cuter Link was as a little boy (ie: Wind Waker), when he had big expressive eyes that really let you know how he was feeling. It also feels like there are more regular loading screens - not a big deal, but the world in this game certainly feels less "connected" than it did Wind Waker.
Combat controls in the Wii version are a liability. The motion controls don't bring any benefit and are less accurate than a button press would be. I'm not anti-motion controls, and when they increase immersion I often prefer them... but this is waggle at it's worst. What makes this most disappointing is that I feel like the combat system is interesting enough it could have been a lot of fun if controls were good. Instead I can't help but wonder if combat was watered down (every battle I've encountered so far is incredibly easy) to make up for the control problems.
Dungeons have been fun so far, and I think they are clearly the high point of the game. It's just a shame that bosses are so damned easy (up to this point). Part of this is normal for Zelda games - as you get more hearts and bottles, it becomes almost impossible to die - but I still think the boss design should have put more emphasis on the technique and skills required to beat them, rather than just making bosses look cool.
Pacing is much better after the world opens up. Disappointing that it took hours and hours to get there... and that might be enough to prevent me from replaying later. On the upside, I'm enjoying the game now and enjoying the experience enough to actively keep playing.
Unsure if I'll be able to get in to the live chat... might even prefer to hold off on that (or listening to the podcast) since it feels like we'll be wrapping up the game in about a week at our current rate of play. Hoping it goes really well though, and look forward to listening to the whole thing once we do finish the game!
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: Sundoulos on May 30, 2015, 11:20:05 AM
A couple of other notes. I decided to pick up a relatively cheap copy of the Gamecube version a few weeks back. I played the Wii version at the system's launch, but I haven't really touched it since. I prefer playing my Zelda without motion controls, mostly because I feel more embarrassed and foolish waving my arms around like a maniac when my wife is in the room.
That being said, I can see some benefit to the motion controls. For example, I did have a difficult time using the Gale Boomerang on Diababa while using a Gamecube controller. I felt like it took too long to pan the screen to find a moving target, and I kept getting hit while trying to lock onto the baboon that would swing across the screen. That's probably at least partly to due with the fact that I'm old, don't play video games as much as I used to, or I just suck. I remember having an easy time with it using motion controls.
It's probably been said upthread (or in podcasts past), but the influence of the Lord of the Rings movies on this game is fairly obvious.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: ejamer on May 30, 2015, 08:48:16 PM
Too late for the retroactive show, but if anyone is still reading the thred I was curious if others felt disappointed at how Zelda took a huge back seat in this game after being fairly front-and-center in Wind Waker.
Maybe there will be some kind of late game reveal that she's been more active than I think... but the fact that you only see her trapped and powerless in the tower a couple of times for much of the game (again, I haven't finished yet) is very disappointing. I would much rather have had a Tetra-like character who is strong and independent than an unseen damsel in distress.
Midna does take on the female protagonist role somewhat, and I do rather like her character... but she's a sidekick at best and not a major character that my little girl can identify with. I'd love to see a Legend of Zelda game throw the title character into a starring role sometime - as long as it doesn't use "woman powers" the way Nintendo's Princess Peach DS game did.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: redfieldjames on June 01, 2015, 01:40:45 AM
Too late for the retroactive show, but if anyone is still reading the thred I was curious if others felt disappointed at how Zelda took a huge back seat in this game after being fairly front-and-center in Wind Waker.
Other than Wind Waker, Zelda always takes a back seat in Zelda games. It's kind of frustrating. Personally, I would absolutely love if Nintendo played a Metal Gear Solid 2 on gamers with Zelda Wii U. You play as Link for about 5 or 6 hours, then Link gets captured, and Zelda picks up the master sword. Please note that this would only be fulfilled if Nintendo kept this secret until the game was released, much like MGS2.
I would revel in the massive online outrage, hate, anger and disappointment with a ravage glee...
I know that Cdi made at least one of their 3 Zelda games with Zelda as the protagonist, but much like Nintendo, I 'm happy to ignore their existence...
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: Kobeskillz on June 05, 2015, 02:31:39 PM
I think the pointer messing up in sunlight left a bad taste and the opening a chest and up able to skip mini cutscene.
The game was great and I loved so much about it and I didn't mind the slow start or the waggle or even the length and I think the graphics are still gorgeous taken as a whole but man the pointer would just screw you.
In Skyward the pointer was even worse because it was motion based. Why can other games get pointer perfect and not Nintendo. lol. That Zelda team needed classes on pointer controls.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: ejamer on June 05, 2015, 05:58:40 PM
Yay! A week late but Twilight Princess has moved from the backlog to my list of beaten games! ;D
The final boss fights on Wii were incredibly disappointing, because it highlighted just how poorly the waggle controls worked. The classic "deflect the projectile with your sword" routine was particularly annoying when movements weren't picked up as intended - and after spending roughly 40 hours on the game it's shameful that I couldn't get the controls to behave consistently and responsively.
It's funny. In the end I have a bunch of gripes against the game, but only when compared to other Zelda games. It's hard to continually set the bar higher, and I think because the Zelda series is really the high-water mark (in my mind) for adventure games sometimes I judge more harshly if an entry in the series doesn't exceed my hopes.
Twilight Princess was a great experience overall and I enjoyed the vast majority of my time in that world. It's not going to land in my Top 3 (probably not even top 5) Zelda games... but I'm very gald this RetroActive event gave me incentive to finally play through the game.
... Other than Wind Waker, Zelda always takes a back seat in Zelda games. ...
I guess that I felt her role was growing in the series. In Ocarina, we got to see Zelda dress up and covertly fight against evil as Sheik (at least, that was always my impression - that she was waging a kind of guerrilla war against the evil in Hyrule while Link was missing) and then in Wind Waker she had a very fun and active character.
But then in Twilight Princess she is horribly under represented. Midna could have been an ok replacement, but also seemed to largely disappear for the second half of the game because you didn't need to spend much time as a wolf.
I'm really not into the current feminist movement when it comes to video games, and don't think that games need to be politically correct in any manner. But I personally want to see Zelda as an empowered character in the series. She's got one third of the Triforce, right? She's been blessed by the gods themselves? So don't stick her in an inaccessible tower as a helpless maiden with virtually no value to the game for 99% of the adventure.
That's just my take though.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on August 30, 2015, 11:37:41 PM
Late to the party (way late) but I started playing Twilight Princess (GameCube) over the weekend and I have been really enjoying it. It's true that the opening section is way too slowly paced, but what is really striking to me is the attention to detail in the animations and environments. The world of the game feels lived in, and the characters in the game are expressive and relatable.
I am about halfway through the fire temple, and I'd forgotten just how involved these dungeons are.
Also, for a 9 year old game, it looks way better than I remember. I was actually really taken aback by how good some of it looked.
All in all, I'm really enjoying my replay of this game. It's my third time through, but my second time through stalled out halfway in.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: pokepal148 on July 09, 2016, 03:56:36 AM
Way Way late, playing through the game now is interesting because you hear about how in The Legend of Zelda: Wild Zubat Appeared, a lot of the story sequences are going to be optional.
Funny story: you can skip this cutscene. In fact, I'm pretty sure you can just high tail it straight to Lake Hylia and not bother with going to Castle Town that first time.
Also, Twilight Princess has a very nice sense of scale for Hyrule (at least in the HD version) that I wish it would show off more often.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)
Post by: Fatty The Hutt on July 11, 2016, 12:42:35 PM
I'm about 3/4 of the way thru the HD version. I heard that in the final boss fight, you can distract the boss with the fishing rod and then strike. I find this funny and will definitely try it. This has got to be the first boss fight to be made easier by a fishing rod.
