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Accidental Racism

by James Charlton - March 1, 2009, 4:04 am EST
Total comments: 109

I see it often on message boards and comment threads. I know these people don't say it to be offensive; it's just a convenient way to write three letters instead of eight, right? Well I'm here to tell you that laziness isn't an excuse for dropping the J-bomb. It's never acceptable to do so, and there are other ways to type it!

Take the recent Olympics for instance.

Did you hear the announcers commenting on how fast the "Japs" were at swimming?

Or about how the "Japs" were doing on the leader boards? No. That's because the abbreviation used is JPN. That is not accidental. If the tournament organisers used the other abbreviation, it might have caused an international incident!

Accidental racism is not confined to message boards either.

The last time I was back in the UK I stepped into a bakery and saw a "Jap Biscuit" (a cookie to US readers). None of my friends seemed bothered by it, but when I asked "What if it was called a Chink Cookie?" they suddenly got my point.

Some people don't realise that both of those terms are equal in their disgusting bigotry.

Living in Japan I am made more aware of this of course, but the more I thought about it, the more I wanted to stop this kind of accidental casual racism so prominent back in my own country - and on the web.

In fact, if you trace the origins of the term "Jap" it's an outdated derogatory World War II term. It's something an old bigot might use when talking about the Japanese, but hardly something appropriate for a message board comment.

There is some good news, however. Certain online gaming stores have recently changed their game labelling from JAP/USA to NTSC-J/NTSC-U, a positive step indeed.

In closing, the next time you want to big up a new Japanese game or comment on how crazy the Japanese are, try these accepted abbreviations:

Japan - Jpn, Jp

Japanese - Jpse, Jpnse

Japanese RPG - J-RPG, Jpse RPG

Let's show our love of Jpse games without hating on the people of Jpn!

Talkback

DasmosMarch 01, 2009

wow

PlugabugzMarch 01, 2009

So can i call it the land of the rising sun?

RPG from the Land of the Rising Sun, etc?

TanookisuitMarch 01, 2009

Nice, thoughtful essay. 

KDR_11kMarch 01, 2009

yap yap yap

:P

If people don't understand that it's an insult then it isn't one, language changes. People here think "Neger" (negro) is an insult because it sounds somewhat like "nigger". And hell, nigger isn't even an insult between blacks.

DasmosMarch 01, 2009

wow

vuduMarch 01, 2009

What brought this on?  I can't remember the last time I saw the term used here on NWR.  Have a little faith that your readers are smarter than that.

Quote from: super_famicomplicated

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

I think you're having a little problem with your apostrophe key.

BarryHMarch 01, 2009

Nonsense. It's a simple abbreviation, like using Brit for British, or Aussie for Australian.

Quote from: BarryH

Nonsense. It's a simple abbreviation, like using Brit for British, or Aussie for Australian.

Spelling-wise, you're right.  The fact that it's derogatory has to do with historical usage and cultural elements.

I think the point of James's blog is not to call people racist; it's to help you avoid saying something that might inadvertantly insult a friend or acquaintance and thus break down communication, online or off.

Nah, "Jap" definitely has negative connotations.  Even as a kid I remember watching old movies set during WWII and they'd refer to "Damn Japs".  Now if we're talking British, "Limey" would be the equivalent to "Jap" if you want to go all WWII on it, or "kraut" for Germans.  Not that any of these words have as much stigma with the younger generation (as evidenced by the replies so far in this thread), but that doesn't make them any less derogatory.

Cultural context is an interesting thing.  In fact, when I was editing this piece I wanted James to censor "Ch*nk" because I know it as a derogatory term.  My rationale was that everybody (i.e. everybody that I grew up around) knows "Ch*nk") as a bad word, but "Jap" doesn't have the same stigma to me.  I pretty much proved James' point right there.

walkingdeadMarch 01, 2009

were not racist any more we have obama as a president now.  and before any one gets all pissy with me or tries to get me suspended that was a joke.

the problem that most people have with racism, or at least should have is intent.  its all well and good for a black guy to throw the N-bomb but if a white guy does it than he's racist.  sorry, i wont let it work that way.  what the average pc jerk fails to realize is that when you get rid of a word that is derogatory all you are doing is setting up the new word to be derogatory.

take midget for example.  years ago this word was used to describe people with dwarfism.  then they felt that it was derogatory so now you are supposed to use "dwarf" or "little person".  im going to tell you what i think little person is more condescending that midget.  and what are we supposed to do 20 years from now when dwarf is considered derogatory... then we just call them the underdeveloped, or the chronically short.  it has to end somewhere, we have to lighten up as a society and not see every description turn to a racial attack.


now i understand where your coming from and what you are trying to say.  however, you also need to understand that intent on a word is far worse than the actual word. 

and now that i think about it, you should also realize that i used the word midget freely however i also used the word n-bomb instead of the actual word.  that should go to show that we all fell (and wrongly so) some racial and derogatory terms just dont hurt like others. 

its got to be fair across the board or just taken off.  thats the long and short of it.  its got to be fair game for all or for none.  so when the gansta rappers stop using it i will to.  cause i have just as much hate behind my jokes as they do in there songs.


and thats a real dialog about racist language.

i await your criticisms and what nots.

StogiMarch 01, 2009

I only think it's racist if it has a racist connotation,, if the user intends for it to be racist.

Quote from: Kashogi

I only think it's racist if it has a racist connotation,, if the user intends for it to be racist.

I understand that, but there's still the potential for misunderstanding on the part of the hearer, and whether something was intentional or not misunderstandings can be very damaging, nor do you get a second chance at first impressions.

NovaQMarch 01, 2009

Quote from: Kashogi

I only think it's racist if it has a racist connotation,, if the user intends for it to be racist.

I thought the danger of racism was its subjugation of one group by another, more dominant group. By saying that a comment is racist only if the speaker intended it to be allows that person to be perfectly innocent as long as s/he is ignorant of the comment's implications. Hopefully this isn't taking things too far, but decades ago when public transit was segregated, I'm sure there were plenty of white folks that didn't see anything offensive is forcing the colored passengers to the back of the bus. That's just how life was when they grew up so, they figured, why question it? Does that mean that these white people weren't being racist?

Racism (and, more generally, the interaction between different groups of people) is really complex, though. It's hard to tell if there's a clear-cut right and wrong amidst the tangled mess of group dynamics, world history, and language. I suppose as long as we try to keep our ears and minds open, we should hopefully be alright...

D_AverageMarch 01, 2009

Maybe its a generation thing.  I concur with Lindy, I know he's a bit older as I am, and I've known this term was derogatory since elementary school, so I've always avoided it.

I once e-mailed a guy in Italy with a helpful reminder about just this very thing.

nickmitchMarch 01, 2009

Quote:

There is some good news, however.  Certain online gaming stores have recently changed their game labelling from JAP/USA to NTSC-J/NTSC-U, a positive step indeed. 

That actually looks a lot more complicated and a lot less short.  Also, if you're gonna abbreviate "Japanese" to 5 letters, you might as well write out the damn word out.  It's a terrible abbreviation and hardly one at all.  Only 3 vowels were removed. THREE!

And as far as how you use it goes, if you say a word with hate, then it has hate.  If you say a word with love, then it has love.  If you say it without anything, then it's just an empty word.

Mop it upMarch 01, 2009

I've never used "Jap" before because I don't like to shorten names or words; to me that seems like lazy writing. I didn't know it was racist though, so maybe I'll keep that in mind.

If you learn to type fast then you shouldn't be bothered by typing out an entire word as opposed to an abbreviation. How much time is it going to save to leave out five letters? A small fraction of a second. Besides, a reader will have better comprehension if a writing piece has proper spelling and grammar.

oohhboyHong Hang Ho, Staff AlumnusMarch 01, 2009

"Chink Cookie".

ROFL  :D

The teacher was right when they told you to ignore the bully. Words only have power if you respond to them in a negative fashion. A person can load a word with enough malice to fire their heart at you, but if you simply marginalize them, they have nothing.

In Gran Torino fashion. Man up and stop being a pussy.

There will be times where you will have to take action, but by the time you do, you got bigger problems.

StogiMarch 01, 2009

I once went up to a group of people outside a local bar....well let me back up. I needed a lighter because someone had stolen mine. Realizing that, I went up to a group of (white) people and very seriously asked if someone had said the word "Nigga." I asked again "I heard somebody say it. So who said it?" They looked like they all were about to shit their pants. I started to smile then began laughing and said I was only fucking with them and that I actually needed to use someones lighter.

At first, they said it wasn't funny, though they started to lighten up and crack jokes like "Holy Shit! I thought you were pissed off! I was about to leave my wallet and run!" We all started laughing and then we laughed some more.

huh.

GoldenPhoenixMarch 01, 2009

I think this blog illustrates something that I've seen in our culture, usually the ones that are offended are not even apart of that ethnic group. When you have to explain to people why it is offensive, that tells me that it isn't as huge of a deal anymore. Historically you can go throughout history and find terms that were once derogatory but are no longer. My guess is that the term holds far more importance to those from that generation, the ones who were fighting in WW2.

With that said I try to avoid shortening Japanese.


http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/yosha/race/Jap_jappu_zyappu.html

There is an interesting article on the complexities of the term. There are various countries who don't think of it as offensive, and I also heard that most Japanese who live in Japan don't really care.

EasyCureMarch 01, 2009

*looks in the mirror* don't forget the spics

I haven't heard that word said from anyone that wasn't hispanic in a looooong time. It's weird actually.. Cuz i knew a ton of people that were offended by that, and knew people that used it the way someone would use "jap" as an abbreviation, not knowing it was hurtul to some. Now i ONLY hear hispanics saying it, with a myriad of connotations behind it.

BeautifulShyMarch 01, 2009

I'm half hispanic EasyCure and that is the first time I heard that term.

About this topic:I agree with GP.These terms are really only relivent in the time period that spawned the word.Sure there are cases where it is used now but those are few and really only used by people that want to keep the derogatory term around.

GoldenPhoenixMarch 01, 2009

I find the term "jap' to be the most interesting in regards to racial slurs. At its core it is really only an abbreviation, in fact before WWII it was used quite often but it didn't hold any negative connotation. Really I cannot think of any other racial slur that is just an abbreviation.

EasyCureMarch 01, 2009

Quote from: GoldenPhoenix

I find the term "jap' to be the most interesting in regards to racial slurs. At its core it is really only an abbreviation, in fact before WWII it was used quite often but it didn't hold any negative connotation. Really I cannot think of any other racial slur that is just an abbreviation.

I've often thought of that too, since it really is an abbreviation and wasn't considered a slur until it was used in the context of hate during WWII. There might be another word or two i can think of that is, somewhat, of an abreviation that can be used as a racial slur. But like other words, it really depends on how you use it. I don't want to delve into this further though, before you know it someone will stumble in here and use the topic at hand as an excuse throw out all the slurs and offensive slang they know. This will be my last visit to this topic just in case.

Quote from: Maxi

I'm half hispanic EasyCure and that is the first time I heard that term.

About this topic:I agree with GP.These terms are really only relivent in the time period that spawned the word.Sure there are cases where it is used now but those are few and really only used by people that want to keep the derogatory term around.

You better start throwing some espanol into our AC/Wiispeak chats, we can start a club with Pap :-D

lumbersmithMarch 01, 2009

In my first year of JPN study, I accidently used the word Jap as an abbreviation for Japanese to my teacher, Hirofumi Nagaoka.  He immediately let me know that he didn't want me saying that and told me to use JPN in writing if I ever needed to abbreviate it.  Just like all ethnic slurs, there're some people who just don't give a damn and some people who do.  The point of watching what you say is that everyone reacts differently and you don't want to hurt or offend someone.  I wouldn't walk up to a JPN tourist and call him Jap, but I have a friend who's quarter JPN that I refer to as Jap, Jappy Jap, etc. constantly and it doesn't bother him, and people call me honkey, white bread, cracker, etc. and it doesn't ruffle my feathers, either.

That being said, I think all ethnic terms are just words and it's actually the intent behind the words that offends or doesn't.  Online it's very hard to guess intent sometimes, and even in person it can be difficult.  If you wonder if you can refer to someone's ethnicity as something, ask them.  Everyone's different.  Some people prefer White, some people prefer Caucasion, some people prefer North American White, some people prefer (insert state name, ie Alaskan) White.  You could argue that's just splitting hairs, but the point is to avoid offending or hurting people.

BeautifulShyMarch 01, 2009

The thing is,EasyCure, is that I haven't really learned any espanol.My father was from Mexico while my mom was born in Oregon.I left my dad when I was 4 years old when we were in Alabama.

PaleMike Gamin, Contributing EditorMarch 01, 2009

Let me pose a question to all of you arguing against the validity of this blog post...

Let me take your side for a second and assume that very few people are actually offended when someone abbreviates Japanese as "Jap".  Let's throw a number on there.  Say that 1 out of every 100 Japanese people are offended and become depressed when they are called that.

Is it really too much of a sacrifice to make to start typing Jp instead of Jap just to make that single person's day a little better?

StogiMarch 01, 2009

I don't think anyone is arguing that. We feel that while the post is valid, it is not as offensive as it once was.

oohhboyHong Hang Ho, Staff AlumnusMarch 01, 2009

Quote from: Pale

Let me pose a question to all of you arguing against the validity of this blog post...

Let me take your side for a second and assume that very few people are actually offended when someone abbreviates Japanese as "Jap".  Let's throw a number on there.  Say that 1 out of every 100 Japanese people are offended and become depressed when they are called that.

Is it really too much of a sacrifice to make to start typing Jp instead of Jap just to make that single person's day a little better?

People like that have got bigger personal issues if they are really going to kick up that kind of fuss over a 3 letter word.

I rather be in favor of converting the word in to more general use by using it in either neutral or positive context. Otherwise it would be a waste of a good and valid abbreviation.

Words like gay for example, in the past meant happy. Now that we have constantly used it in a constant and negative way, it has become a slur. But there is no reason as to why that can't work the other way around. Jap is no way as loaded as Gay is now days, so the progress to turn this word around had already began a far while back. It also helps that there were far stronger slurs at the time.

BranDonk KongMarch 01, 2009

The Oxford dictionary is outdated, especially when apparently the majority of Japan is apathetic to the term. It was an abbreviation that was *turned into* a derogatory term during a war, a war against the Japanese. I don't consider it any different than saying Brit, or Jew (when referring to an actual Jew at least). I don't think "Jap" and "Chink" are on the same level either. This seems counter-effective to me, actually. By not using the word, we're making it into a racial slur.

PaleMike Gamin, Contributing EditorMarch 01, 2009

Ok, I've got nothing.

famicomplicatedJames Charlton, Associate Editor (Japan)March 02, 2009

The word "Jap" is racist.

I have heard this from my Japanese friends and my Japanese-American friends.

They do not like it.

If you think it isn't wrong to say it, think about it: would you say it TO a Japanese person? To their face? (rare examples excluded, like 'lumbersmith')

It sounds wrong, because it IS wrong.

Also, I must say that I didn't write this to sound off against the NWR forum-goers.
I rarely, if ever, see people on here say it - something that reflects the nature of our boards for sure.

I hope people who used to say it read this say "oh, fair enough, I didn't know that, but I see the point" and spread the word to other forums.

What I didn't expect to see was people actually defending the use of the word!

Let's not argue about "how racist" or "how offensive" this word is, when or when not to say it or how "bad" it is compared to other words - these are all irrelevant points, if it's offensive to a certain group of people, we should strive to not say it, right?

GoldenPhoenixMarch 02, 2009

Quote:

It sounds wrong, because it IS wrong.

Once again this is a cultural thing. The word itself isn't wrong but the connotations behind it have made it wrong. As I showed in my link there are Japanese publications that use the term. In regards to whether or not I would use it personally? No I wouldn't but with that said even though I don't think the terms "white" or "black" is bad I wouldn't call an African-American "black" if I was talking to them if, it wouldn't be proper. Not to mention there is a big difference between the way people type things and what they actually say.

BTW did you know that the term also is a slur against Jewish people? Jewish-American princess, and is considered in an insult there as well. 

Also I think it is extremely unfair that you characterize people as "defending" the use of the term. What I've seen here (for the most part) is explaining why people need to grow beyond getting offended by every term used. When you start a socially charged blog like this, don't expect everyone to agree with everything you said.  Also you cannot go through your life and fear that every term you use will be construed as offensive by someone, because frankly it is impossible. People can be very fickle and like I said what I find most funny about racial offense is more times then not it is someone from another minority who is doing the complaining.

So in conclusion I do not find "Jap." as written on forums to in the same category as saying it to someone's face. It is a different medium of communication and it is quite clear the majority of the time that the person is just being lazy and shortens Japanese. It is a unique problem, considering most other racial slurs are NOT shortened terms of an ethnicity (or if they are, an extra letter or two is put in front of it). So it should be treated as such when it comes to writing, and should be read in context because it is such a flexible term that doesn't have a specialized meaning.

The context of WWII is still with us today.  I mean, it's still a relevant context.  We aren't talking about the big band era here.  We're talking about a war that still effects policy and feelings.  Why do you think swastikas are outlawed in Germany?  Because the context of WWII was so powerful that that symbol is still meaningful.  So is the word "Jap" to a lot of people that lived through that.  It doesn't get as much play in the West, that's for sure, but in the East I'm sure it's still a big no-no.

GoldenPhoenixMarch 02, 2009

Quote:

So is the word "Jap" to a lot of people that lived through that.  It doesn't get as much play in the West, that's for sure, but in the East I'm sure it's still a big no-no.

From what I understand you would be wrong, there have supposedly been studies in Japan where they really don't care that much about it. And that doesn't even address the fact that when it is typed in a message board that more often then not it is because the person is too lazy to write "Japanese", they aren't going out of their way to use it, it is just that they aren't going out of their way to write the full word. Racial slurs have context and BOTH sides should be aware of that, instead of taking offense at something that wasn't intended that way, especially when a term is a lazy person's way of sometimes writing Japanese in message boards (it would be different though if it was an official publication). I've seen it written as Jap. as well does that make it just as racially charged? Because it is quite clear in that context it is an abbreviation as denoted by the period.

OptimusPMarch 02, 2009

Quote from: Lindy

The context of WWII is still with us today.  I mean, it's still a relevant context.  We aren't talking about the big band era here.  We're talking about a war that still effects policy and feelings.  Why do you think swastikas are outlawed in Germany?  Because the context of WWII was so powerful that that symbol is still meaningful.  So is the word "Jap" to a lot of people that lived through that.  It doesn't get as much play in the West, that's for sure, but in the East I'm sure it's still a big no-no.

Irrelevant argument, the French Revolution, the American War of Independence or the Napoleonic wars also still have effects on policy to this day. And even bigger then WWII (some European countries still use the Code Napoleon in their city-policy and such, the American constitution has been unaltered to this day). But I don't think the negative slurs then are still being seen as insults now.
Sure don't use the word Jap to a actual japanese you just met, but really, using it in casual talking with friends, it's completely harmless. And there's nothing wrong with being courteous about mentioning "we don't use the word as an insult anymore, it's just a handy abbreviation". Hell, using the word in neutral or even positive connotations is a sign of social acceptance.
Also comparing it to putting other ethnics in the back of the bus is just wrong. That was a forced undemocratic practice, using Jap actually has a neutral function of abbreviation. It's more like file-sharing programs, yeah sure it can do harm (by supporting piracy) if used in that intent but it also has a major neutral and positive function if used as it was meant to be used (sharing free- and shareware).

So in a democratic rational sense, the use of the word jap is just an handy abbrevation as long as that is the intended use. Unless you're a WWII-veteran, that's probably the only use for it. If you get mentioned by a Japanese person that the word is offensive to them, mentioning the neutral function and use should be enough to keep using it as such. Trying to prohibit the neutral use is actually violating the right of free speech in a way.

Now offcourse, you do have a social cultural aspect on the other side and should that be ignored? It is offcourse the emotional irrational laden side and I always believe that if the intent is well explained (the neutral function of abbreviation) that should be that. If you get mad over me then using it in that function, the problem is mostly in your own camp. All that social cultural crap is a layer of varnish anyway that gets reapplied by every passing generation. What type of varnish depends on what functions we need fullfilled by our social cultural behavior.

NinGurl69 *hugglesMarch 02, 2009

Just say "those casual gamers"

Nick DiMolaNick DiMola, Staff AlumnusMarch 02, 2009

I'm confused, someone says, "Hey, this term is construed as a racial slur by some people," and we're arguing that they are wrong?

I accept that the term may be used as a slur and would prefer not to offend people. I don't think anyone is arguing that people might use the abbreviation and not know what it means, of course that is going to happen, I think the point is that you should be cognizant of the term and know not to use it because some people might take offense. Why is this so complicated?

NovaQMarch 02, 2009

...Because it's the Internet? I really don't know, either.

oohhboyHong Hang Ho, Staff AlumnusMarch 02, 2009

Quote from: super_famicomplicated

I hope people who used to say it read this say "oh, fair enough, I didn't know that, but I see the point" and spread the word to other forums.

What I didn't expect to see was people actually defending the use of the word!

Let's not argue about "how racist" or "how offensive" this word is, when or when not to say it or how "bad" it is compared to other words - these are all irrelevant points, if it's offensive to a certain group of people, we should strive to not say it, right?

My good man, this is NWR, not GamesFAQ. If you were looking for an easy win in an attempt to pacify some thing you feel or to confirm a world view, you have come to the wrong place. This place has never been a circle jerk of agreement and I hope it never becomes one. Neither is anything black and white here. It's just not shades of grey but colors of the rainbow.

You came here advocating censorship. I and many others offered potential long term solutions. Maybe censorship is right when it comes to things that are truly sensitive like Nazi symbols and slogan in Germany. However it is a horribly blunt instrument and it doesn't resolve the underlying issue by itself. It is useful as part of a tool box. It's function is to buy time so maybe in the future such words and symbols can be used to educate us the evils it promoted so that we may forgive but not forget our past.

So don't be mistaken that we defend racism as you implied. There is no room for it in the world and I would like to see it gone. But banning words is not how one goes about.

PlugabugzMarch 02, 2009

I think any term, (im being as wide ranging and broad as possible) can be considered offensive if the person on the receiving end considers it to be.

But at the same time i'm leaning into being as politically correct, so i'll say no more here and go to the funhouse for the rest.

Quote from: OptimusP

Quote from: Lindy

The context of WWII is still with us today.  I mean, it's still a relevant context.  We aren't talking about the big band era here.  We're talking about a war that still effects policy and feelings.  Why do you think swastikas are outlawed in Germany?  Because the context of WWII was so powerful that that symbol is still meaningful.  So is the word "Jap" to a lot of people that lived through that.  It doesn't get as much play in the West, that's for sure, but in the East I'm sure it's still a big no-no.

Irrelevant argument, the French Revolution, the American War of Independence or the Napoleonic wars also still have effects on policy to this day. And even bigger then WWII (some European countries still use the Code Napoleon in their city-policy and such, the American constitution has been unaltered to this day). But I don't think the negative slurs then are still being seen as insults now.

I think if you said this to one of my Okinawan coworkers or friends, they would have a different perspective. Or I guess you could just stroll around one of our many American bases here, eat some spam, go to A&W.... An "if you don't like it, it's your problem" attitude on this subject isn't all that productive.

Also, I have to wonder if the term is more offensive to Japanese-Americans than Japanese citizens....Just a hunch with no proof to back it up, but it seems like that would add another layer on it, implying they are not American (which in fact was what they were accused of). I mean, how often did Japanese citizens hear the term "Jap" in a negative connotation compared to a Japanese-American?

Quote from: Maxi

I left my dad when I was 4 years old when we were in Alabama.

Did you grow up there?

MorariMarch 02, 2009

User was warned for this post. ~Pale

Quote from: TheYoungerPlumber

Also, I have to wonder if the term is more offensive to Japanese-Americans than Japanese citizens....Just a hunch with no proof to back it up, but it seems like that would add another layer on it, implying they are not American (which in fact was what they were accused of). I mean, how often did Japanese citizens hear the term "Jap" in a negative connotation compared to a Japanese-American?

I suspect this could be true.  My grandmother spent time in an internment camp, one of the US/Canada's worst racist moments, yet probably also one of the least remembered.  The rural location where I grew up was full of racist people that I had to deal with, but I believe it was more out of ignorance than true malice.

GoldenPhoenixMarch 02, 2009

Quote from: MegaByte

Quote from: TheYoungerPlumber

Also, I have to wonder if the term is more offensive to Japanese-Americans than Japanese citizens....Just a hunch with no proof to back it up, but it seems like that would add another layer on it, implying they are not American (which in fact was what they were accused of). I mean, how often did Japanese citizens hear the term "Jap" in a negative connotation compared to a Japanese-American?

I suspect this could be true.  My grandmother spent time in an internment camp, one of the US/Canada's worst racist moments, yet probably also one of the least remembered.  The rural location where I grew up was full of racist people that I had to deal with, but I believe it was more out of ignorance than true malice.

Actually from what I understand it does have more meaning for Japanese-Americans then those who live in Japan.

Quote:

I accept that the term may be used as a slur and would prefer not to offend people. I don't think anyone is arguing that people might use the abbreviation and not know what it means, of course that is going to happen, I think the point is that you should be cognizant of the term and know not to use it because some people might take offense. Why is this so complicated?

Like I said though, the term is unique in that all it is, is a shortened way of saying Japanese, so it is also the responsibility of those who may take offense of it to also read what the context is, especially in the internet age where everything is shortened.

PaleMike Gamin, Contributing EditorMarch 02, 2009

I think everyone is making good points as to how people can understand the context and learn to be less offended by it.

My beef, as James C. mentions in his blog post, is that it isn't that hard to change your habits when it comes to typing it. I'm pretty appalled that some just can't be bothered to do something so insanely simple.

I think the term would have the most meaning to those that were directly affected by it.  Maybe not the Japanese within Japan, but definitely Japanese-Americans, or Japanese POWs.

And to compare the French Revolution, Napoleonic Wars, and American War of Independence to WWII in terms of cultural relevance is absurd.  We're still chasing war criminals from WWII for crying out loud...the effects are still being felt.  Culturally, all of those other wars now have negligible impact besides their effect on laws, which we aren't even talking about in this discussion.  It's not like people are using slang terms against an ethnic group that were used during the Napoleonic Wars.  Not unless you have a time machine.

StogiMarch 02, 2009

*snacks on popcorn*

This is one of the better conversations this year. This is a conversation, right?

GoldenPhoenixMarch 02, 2009

Quote from: Pale

I think everyone is making good points as to how people can understand the context and learn to be less offended by it.

My beef, as James C. mentions in his blog post, is that it isn't that hard to change your habits when it comes to typing it. I'm pretty appalled that some just can't be bothered to do something so insanely simple.

I hope you are talking about others besides those here, because I don't do believe anyone here has said they use it. My point is that for those that do use it as a lazy way of writing Japanese shouldn't be taken offense of. In a way since I'm coming at this from a female perspective, I view it in a similar way to those that use masculine terms like "fireman", "policeman", etc. I don't like the terms that much because of their gender specific connotations but I'm not offended by them because I know most don't mean any harm.

PaleMike Gamin, Contributing EditorMarch 02, 2009

Well I guess I may be misunderstanding some people's stance then, but I was getting the impression that people were basically saying "It's dumb for them to be offended so why should I change the way I type it."

GoldenPhoenixMarch 02, 2009

Quote from: Pale

Well I guess I may be misunderstanding some people's stance then, but I was getting the impression that people were basically saying "It's dumb for them to be offended so why should I change the way I type it."

You can peruse the board all you want and I can guarantee I have NEVER used the term. I've maybe used it once or twice total EVER and that was when I put a period after it to show it was an abbreviation and that was because I was typing on something uncomfortable. I've seen A LOT of people use it at gamefaqs and no seems to really complain about it because of the context. So basically what I am saying there is a time to be offended and a time to not be offended, you may not like something but it doesn't mean you have to get offended by it.

It is one of those things that I don't see as a huge deal to go on a mass correcting spree, just like some various gender biased terms. I'll keep from doing it but I'm not going to badger people who are lazy and shorten Japanese.

NinGurl69 *hugglesMarch 02, 2009

JPN, PEOPLE, THAT'S ALL YOU NEED.

GoldenPhoenixMarch 02, 2009

Quote from: NinGurl69

JPN, PEOPLE, THAT'S ALL YOU NEED.

Isn't that an abbreviation for Japan? It just doesn't sound right if used in the context of the people.

UltimatePartyBearMarch 02, 2009

Quote from: super_famicomplicated

Let's show our love of Jpse games without hating on the people of Jpn!

This is the main part I'm bothered by.  Correcting ignorance is all fine and good, but ignorance isn't hate.  If you had said, "Let's show our love of Jpse games without offending the people of Jpn!" it wouldn't have offended me so much.  :P

I see that presumption of bigotry in so much PC preaching that it's gotten beyond old.

PaleMike Gamin, Contributing EditorMarch 02, 2009

I wasn't speaking specifically to you GP.

My best experience with this issue is when I play Final Fantasy XI. For those that don't know, it has a healthy mix of both Japanese people and Americans (as well as other regions obviously).  There is an auto-translate feature in the game so that you can communicate (at least about game elements) with people that don't speak your language.

When in a party, there is often a lot of slang used, and this can cause some frustration for people when they don't realize another member doesn't speak english.

I have witnessed the following events (more or less) on multiple occasions.  (Curly braces represent auto-translated terms)

English Speaker A: Heal me... HEAL ME... I'M POISONED! COME ON YOU ARE THE WHITE MAGE!

Japanese Speaker: (Doesn't heal them.)

English Speaker B: He's Jap man, talk like this...

English Speaker B: {{White Mage}} -> {{Thief}} {{Please Help!}}

Japanese Speaker Leaves the Party and quits.


Party is confused as to why their White Mage just bailed on the party.  As you can see from that conversation, the second english speaker was genuinely trying to help the situation and meant no offense.

But, if you read that conversation knowing that "Jap" can be seen as a racial slur, the entire thing can be viewed as saying the Japanese White mage sucks solely because he is Japanese.

This is why you have to be careful when it is typed text. With absolutely no inflection, true meaning is difficult to arrive at.

GoldenPhoenixMarch 02, 2009

Fair points Pale. I think that pretty much ends my involvement with the thread, both sides seem to have fair points and I doubt we'll be able to get much more then a circular argument now!

King of TwitchMarch 02, 2009

Solution: just assume everyone is Asian and avoid saying anything offensive

NinGurl69 *hugglesMarch 02, 2009

Quote from: GoldenPhoenix

Quote from: NinGurl69

JPN, PEOPLE, THAT'S ALL YOU NEED.

Isn't that an abbreviation for Japan? It just doesn't sound right if used in the context of the people.

It works anyway.  In the internweb scope, we're dealing with text, not sounds, so our brains will fill in the blanks easily, which is a better approach than tolerating someone's laziness to cut things short with "Jap."  An additional benefit, J P and N are easier to type with one hand.

PaleMike Gamin, Contributing EditorMarch 02, 2009

Quote from: Zap

Solution: just assume everyone is Asian and avoid saying anything offensive

Better solution. Don't try and make black and white rules for a gray world. Balance sacrifice with benefits and then make the best decision for every instance.

NinGurl69 *hugglesMarch 02, 2009

Hey Kashogi, with a name like that U MUST B ASIAN.

StogiMarch 02, 2009

I'm more like Wu-Tang. I have a fondness for samurai swords and shaolin shadow boxing.


I came to bring the pain, hardcore to the brain, let's go inside my astral plane

ThePermMarch 02, 2009

I haven't read the entire 3 pages of comments, but from my knowledge its only derogatory in the U.S , Its not derogatory in the UK or Australia, and I'm not sure if it is or not in Canada. Either way i use jp, or j, or jpn, and maybe np(nippon)

I will continue to use midget and retard because these were once technical terms before they joined the "euphemism treadmill" of words 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemism

the only thing that ever gets my goat is when my friend purposely insults my left handedness and says "sinner, use your right hand as God intended", but be honest its sort of funny and its not a big deal.

And Kashogi..every time i read your name i read Kashogi E Stogi(as in spanish "y" for "and").  What does the Y. stand for?

OptimusPMarch 03, 2009

Quote from: Lindy

And to compare the French Revolution, Napoleonic Wars, and American War of Independence to WWII in terms of cultural relevance is absurd.  We're still chasing war criminals from WWII for crying out loud...the effects are still being felt.  Culturally, all of those other wars now have negligible impact besides their effect on laws, which we aren't even talking about in this discussion.  It's not like people are using slang terms against an ethnic group that were used during the Napoleonic Wars.  Not unless you have a time machine.

It's not absurd in the argument that Jap is still a negative word because of the relevance of the cultural significance of WWII to this day. I countered this by using all those 19th century events because the cultural significance they still have (even laws have cultural significnace because they inderectly determine social norms and cultural behavior). The French Revolution opened the floodgates of democracy in the whole of Europe and later the world...that is less of a cultural significance today then chasing after WWII-criminals? France as a country is so drenched in the values of the French Revolution in such a way that if you mention that Europe is based on christian values to a french person, they will punch you in the face (this is not a attempt to make the discussion religious or political, just an example of the major cultural significiance of the French Revolution to this day).

It's just to show that these negative slurs are constructs to fullfill a certain function for the ones using it. When that function goes away, in the case of Jap, it just becomes a handy abbreviation with no negative meaning whatsoever. Despite so-called significance of WWII to this day (using the chasing of war-criminals and the banning of swastika's in germany is kind of superficial, you should have said the enormous guilt feeling that germans still have today towards WWII). I can imagine that Japanese in Japan don't really care, but that migrant Japanese do (the best patriots of a country don't live in it) as a kind of nationalist reflex.

DasmosMarch 03, 2009

Quote from: ThePerm

And Kashogi..every time i read your name i read Kashogi E Stogi(as in spanish "y" for "and").  What does the Y. stand for?

Yousif.

walkingdeadMarch 03, 2009

Quote from: Pale

I think everyone is making good points as to how people can understand the context and learn to be less offended by it.

My beef, as James C. mentions in his blog post, is that it isn't that hard to change your habits when it comes to typing it. I'm pretty appalled that some just can't be bothered to do something so insanely simple.

and you know what would be even easier?  not being offended by every freekin word you see or hear.

PaleMike Gamin, Contributing EditorMarch 03, 2009

At what point would it become worthwhile for you to make the change? If your co-worker was offended by it? What about your good friend? Your best friend? Your girlfriend?

StogiMarch 03, 2009

That's interesting.

I use to use the word "gay" to describe things that were really lame. It wasn't until I had a lesbian friend that got on my back about it did I actually stop using the word in that context.

walkingdeadMarch 03, 2009

Quote from: Pale

At what point would it become worthwhile for you to make the change? If your co-worker was offended by it? What about your good friend? Your best friend? Your girlfriend?

i think the better question is at what point would  it become worthwhile for the offended party to get over it.  racism exists for 2 reasons.  the first is people are racist... and the second is people get offended by words.  when you take the power away from the racist they have nothing on you... but when you give the power to the racists than they have every thing on you.

i grew up a white fat kid in detroit.  i was the minority, i got crap handed to me all the time.. and it bothered me when i was 12.  im 30 now and i understand that when i get called fat ass or cracker/honkey/ whatever that there trying to gain power on me.  i wont let them.  and i am doing so much better for it now cause i took the power away... i don't let it bother me.

if the average person (in a minority group) would just look at how stupid a slur is and ask themselves why it bothers them they would probably laugh at themselves for being so stupid for years.


let me pose this question for the board... how many people here are a minority... and i don't mean not white... i just mean the only women in an office or the only white kid on  your block or the only asian (or if you would rather ntsc-j) guy in school. and how do these words affect you.  we have had a lot of discussion from what would seem the "majority" but nothing from the minority.

PaleMike Gamin, Contributing EditorMarch 03, 2009

So because you were harassed to the point of being unhappy as a child and you learned to ignore it and achieved happiness as an adult, you think everyone else should get harassed until they learn to deal with it like you did?

I'm just trying to get on the same page here.  And I'd also still really like an answer to my last question for you.


I'm your standard white guy that grew up in a combination of the country and suburbs.  That said, I have extremely curly hair and for that and many other reasons I used to take a significant amount of crap as a kid.

I, like you say you did, learned to let that stuff roll off my back, and for the most part I'm extremely happy now.

That said, if I saw a doofy white kid with seriously curly hair getting harassed by a bunch of morons, I wouldn't join in to try and teach him a lesson on how to ignore that stuff.

walkingdeadMarch 03, 2009

well what your advocating is not at all what i was trying to get to.  and as for when would it be worthwhile... well to put it simply it wouldn't.

now dont get me wrong im not saying that i would do stuff like that at work just to piss people off.  and im not saying that we should just poke the wounded bear so to speak just to get them to get over it.  im just saying i know there is no malicious intent behind what i say other than humor so im not going to change what i do.

and when you give power to the racist they have power...

PaleMike Gamin, Contributing EditorMarch 03, 2009

Well my point of view is that taking some stance on principle that can result in the stress of another is fairly selfish, especially when such stance revolves around such a trivial amount of effort.

walkingdeadMarch 03, 2009

yea but at the same time now i have to look over my shoulder every time i speak and hope that i don't say something inadvertently racist to someone who may or may not be within earshot of me and my conversation. 

so either way the selfishness is going to be on display.

if you recall the original intent of this blog was to show that some people were being racist and didn't even know it... and my original comment was that unless you are trying to be racist your not.


if i walk down the street saying FAG FAG FAG FAG FAG over and over again thats a dick move and not what im talking about.  that has the intent to hurt.  but the true selfishness comes when someone is trying to change the way you think and act so they are more comfortable.... what about me why don't i get to be comfortable... why do i have to worry about the words i say.


some of the most racist things i have ever heard came from the mouths of people who claim to be working for the minority's. 

PaleMike Gamin, Contributing EditorMarch 03, 2009

But you are thinking on a "life rule" scale for something that is infinitely simpler. That's my point.  Typing Jap is no easier than typing Jpn. Heck, you could move to Jp and even save time!

Plus, your point is that it isn't racist if there is no intent. While that may be true, intent is very hard to gauge when using written word, which again, brings us back to the entire source of this thread.

walkingdeadMarch 03, 2009

so let me just see if i can understand where your coming from.  you want me to constantly look over my shoulder when i say/type any thing to make sure im not offending any one.  is that what you want.  do you sit by the racist dictionary at all times when your monitoring this board and any others to make sure that you never say/type any thing that can be construed as racist at all times. 

i have alwayse made the point in all/most of my posts that i am not trying to harm any one intentionally... i was mearly trying to make the argument that you cant make all the people happy all the time and once and a while were going to say something wrong,  and with that i was only trying to also make the point that i am not going to apologies for an accident made with no ill intent.  thats all nothing more nothing less.

PaleMike Gamin, Contributing EditorMarch 03, 2009

Maybe I'm not explaining myself well.

You are looking for a "rule" to live by.  For some reason you only see two extreme options.

Option A: Ignore people that claim something you say is racist because it can't be if you had no racist intent.

Option B: Constantly look over your shoulder when you say/type anything to make sure you're not offending anyone.


What I am saying is, there is no reason in the world to ignore the simple request made by James C. in this blog post because you choose to live an Option A lifestyle.  Why can't you make this one instance an exception because someone else took the time to let you know it can be offensive? You didn't have to do any work here. You just have to type a single abbreviation differently.

Again... This is not a black and white world.

PaleMike Gamin, Contributing EditorMarch 03, 2009

And if I'm misunderstanding you, and you actually do plan to make that change, you are just speaking about the racism issue as a whole, then we shouldn't be arguing anymore.

This really shouldn't be an argument about racism at all. It should come down to simple matters of convenience. Sure, it's not your fault if someone else gets offended by a word choice you made that you didn't mean to offend with. But what if that person is someone important? Or would have otherwise helped you?

It's not question of who should be responsible for someone feeling offended. It's a question of how well we can manipulate other people to our benefit, or detriment, with our words and actions. And that, in my opinion, is wholly based in the "selfishness" you're talking about walkingdead.

The irony is that true selfishness is hard work.

walkingdeadMarch 04, 2009

Quote from: Pale

And if I'm misunderstanding you, and you actually do plan to make that change, you are just speaking about the racism issue as a whole, then we shouldn't be arguing anymore.

well i think we can be done arguing any how cause i never once typed that slur that i can remember.  i do see where your coming from and my original argument was not about the jap/jpn thing but about racism in general...

by the way that was the first time i typed said slur.

DasmosMarch 04, 2009

walkingdead reminds me of someone. Hmmm.

RABicleMarch 04, 2009

How about Nip then? Like all those fucken Nips can got back to Nippon where everything is shit?

I lived with a guy who frequently used the term Nip. I'm not sure he does anymore now that his girlfriend is half Japanese.

RABicleMarch 04, 2009

Quote from: Pale

Again... This is not a black and white world.

It's a white world.
Bedtime reading for you

PaleMike Gamin, Contributing EditorMarch 04, 2009

that statement wasn't a racial statement. Probably a poor choice of words given the topic.

walkingdeadMarch 04, 2009

yea you may have offended someone with that.  i believe the correct term would be, its not a African American and European American  world.

NinGurl69 *hugglesMarch 04, 2009

Time to offend non-casuals:

Wii

StogiMarch 04, 2009

*Yawn*

I hate when people don't speak there mind,, regardless of offense.

RABicleMarch 05, 2009

Quote from: Pale

that statement wasn't a racial statement. Probably a poor choice of words given the topic.

Yeah I know. I didn't actually mean to direct the link specifically at you either, it's for EVERYONE.

Quote from: walkingdead

yea you may have offended someone with that.  i believe the correct term would be, its not a African American and European American  world.

The intended target of offence is actually white people who think that racism doesn't exist and that affirmative action (and other racial policies) put white people at a disadvantage.

For those who didn't bother reading the link I offered. Here is a song.

It takes two to tango, even when it comes to "slurs." Words are totally arbitrary combinations of sounds used to convey meaning. We ascribe meaning to particular words. In many, many cases, I think people today look for reasons to be offended, so that even when they know that, in the particular context, "Jap" is being used inoffensively, the person takes offense. I've met plenty of people like that--usually from the generation before mine.

I also think it's ridiculous that one "racial" group (I have my own definition of race) is able to use a variety of slurs that another group is not. That's just me. Personally, I think it's absolutely bizarre that black people throw the word "n*gger" around like it's an article (a, an, the) even while their own immediate ancestors were called that word as an unbelievably derogatory term.

It's like how Call of Duty: World at War is selling like hotcakes in Japan. There's just something wrong with that.

So people choose to use a word offensively, but other people look for opportunities to TAKE offense. It takes two to tango.

ThePermMarch 05, 2009

also is it really racism? wouldn't it be ethnicism(ethnicism isn't a word).

or if its specifically relating to the Japanese nationality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese

more info on the subject
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jap

walkingdeadMarch 06, 2009

Quote from: RABicle

Quote from: Pale

that statement wasn't a racial statement. Probably a poor choice of words given the topic.

Yeah I know. I didn't actually mean to direct the link specifically at you either, it's for EVERYONE.

Quote from: walkingdead

yea you may have offended someone with that.  i believe the correct term would be, its not a African American and European American  world.

The intended target of offence is actually white people who think that racism doesn't exist and that affirmative action (and other racial policies) put white people at a disadvantage.

For those who didn't bother reading the link I offered. Here is a song.

racism isnt dead... if any one thinks it is you should see the Detroit city council... they are probably the most racist people outside of a clan rally that you will ever see.

UltimatePartyBearMarch 06, 2009

I keep wanting to read this thread's title as "Occidental Racism."  I hope puns aren't considered racist.

oohhboyHong Hang Ho, Staff AlumnusMarch 09, 2009

I have taken a week in order to ferment on what has been said.

American cars a useless.

Jap cars are great.

There I have just converted the word American in to a racial slur, nay, a national slur. A racial slur into national praise.  The great thing about language, any language is the ability to change. During the Bush years anywhere outside of North America being called American can be considered a slight or outright insult if you were in the middle east. In europe, if you were an American and you made yourself known, there would be a high likely hood that people would come up to you and force you to defend your country's actions.

Quote from: Pale

English Speaker A: Heal me... HEAL ME... I'M POISONED! COME ON YOU ARE THE WHITE MAGE!

Japanese Speaker: (Doesn't heal them.)

English Speaker B: He's Jap man, talk like this...

English Speaker B: {{White Mage}} -> {{Thief}} {{Please Help!}}

Japanese Speaker Leaves the Party and quits.

Maybe he wasn't Japanese. Maybe he was from Okinawa. They don't consider themselves Japanese.

The point I am trying to make here is that no matter how careful you are, no matter what you say you will insult some one. I am from Hong Kong. You would call me a Chinese. I would be insulted because one, I am not Chinese, two, I don't like people from mainland China, three, I consider myself a New Zealander above points one and two. There would be no way in hell you would have known that without me declaring so. However I wouldn't give two shits about it. Online I wouldn't bother correcting you. Face to face I would politely correct you. But I wouldn't throw a fit over it because I know that you know that you couldn't possibly know and at the end of the day I don't care. Racial slurs are the weakest for of insults you can use on me and used exclusively by the lazy.

What doesn't kill or maim you makes you stronger. As much as I would like to see the end of discrimination, humans are inherently stupid and the world imperfect. While people should be careful as to what they say, people shouldn't be overly critical of what other people say. How careful you are is up to you and how thick skinned you are is also up to you, but I urge both sides of the same coin to buck up and meet the challenge.

I feel James C's Blog post an over reaction, however it did open up useful discussion and that is all you should have asked for.

blackfootstepsMarch 18, 2009

Quote from: ThePerm

Its not derogatory in the UK or Australia, and I'm not sure if it is or not in Canada.

It is used in a derogatory sense in Australia.

ThePermMarch 18, 2009

also i found it quite weird during the Bush years that the United States was now generally called America, what a change. Growing up we rarely called the country America, normally we called the country: United States, U.S, The U.S, U.S.A, and the U.S of A. People were referred to Americans, simply because there's no snappy name for the country like Washingtonia, or Canada, or Venuzuela

NephilimMarch 19, 2009

Quote from: blackfootsteps

Quote from: ThePerm

Its not derogatory in the UK or Australia, and I'm not sure if it is or not in Canada.

It is used in a derogatory sense in Australia.

More of a refence to the quality of items long ago, you wont hear many people under 20 say "jap crap", now that they all love fast and the furious tokyo rush xtreme intial d racing carsssssssssssssssss.
Only people you will find saying "Japs" are the older gens, babyboomers

StratosMarch 19, 2009

My grandpa used that term when he was alive. 'Course he did fight in WWII and that probably did influence it a great deal since they were the enemy and the killers of his friends and comrades. He didn't have a high opinion of Germans too.

Tuxedo.BondApril 04, 2009

*Double Post*

Tuxedo.BondApril 05, 2009

Quote from: super_famicomplicated

None of my friends seemed bothered by it, but when I asked "What if it was called a Chink Cookie?" they suddenly got my point.

Chinese isn't spelled with a K. You can't spell Japanese without Jap.

Quote from: super_famicomplicated

The word "Jap" is racist.

It sounds wrong, because it IS wrong.

In your opinion. Words don't have the same meaning in every culture.

Quote from: super_famicomplicated

What I didn't expect to see was people actually defending the use of the word!

You didn't expect people to not all have the same culture and opinion as you?

Quote from: super_famicomplicated

if it's offensive to a certain group of people, we should strive to not say it, right?

Not everyone has the same culture. Avoiding thousands of words because someone, somewhere, determines it to be derogatory in their opinion and culture is ridiculous, in my opinion.

Quote from: Mr.

I'm confused, someone says, "Hey, this term is construed as a racial slur by some people," and we're arguing that they are wrong?

I accept that the term may be used as a slur and would prefer not to offend people. I don't think anyone is arguing that people might use the abbreviation and not know what it means, of course that is going to happen, I think the point is that you should be cognizant of the term and know not to use it because some people might take offense. Why is this so complicated?

The discussion is about stating as fact that a word is derogatory, when it clearly is culturally subjective.

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/8949/aw080613.gif

Next thing I know I'll have some white guy telling me I can't refer to my own people as orientals.

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorApril 05, 2009

I think I can clear up the problem here.  This entire debate rests on the fact that words have meaning.

Let's look at the meaning of "racism"

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Can anyone tell me how someone abbreviating "Japanese" as "Jap" is, in any way, shape, or form one of those three things?  Is one race superior because another race calls the second race by an abbreviation?

NovaQApril 05, 2009

Quote from: UncleBob

I think I can clear up the problem here.  This entire debate rests on the fact that words have meaning.

Let's look at the meaning of "racism"

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Can anyone tell me how someone abbreviating "Japanese" as "Jap" is, in any way, shape, or form one of those three things?  Is one race superior because another race calls the second race by an abbreviation?

I suppose "Jap" by itself doesn't propagate any of those things. But, there are other community*-held beliefs that can go along with it that do, and it's those communities that could make "Jap" a symbol for their derogatory beliefs. The potential is there for any other word, too. I would think that being mindful of the word's history and responsible for its use when/if you use it is all you really need to do.

*I'm not specifying any community other than those with derogatory beliefs about the Japanese, or that anyone on these boards is a part of such a community.

DAaaMan64April 06, 2009

Persons who obsess with diversity only promote more group thinking, they perpetuate racism.

Nick DiMolaNick DiMola, Staff AlumnusApril 06, 2009

In response to Tuxedo Bond:

Well regardless of cultural subjectivity, the word IS a slur to some people somewhere. I'm not sure where you hail from, but in the melting pot of America, chances are those people exist here somewhere. So as a matter of course, I will avoid using the word to avoid offending someone who I didn't intend to offend. The effort is minimal, and the loss to my vocabulary more so.

Flames_of_chaosLukasz Balicki, Staff AlumnusApril 06, 2009

Quote from: UncleBob

I think I can clear up the problem here.  This entire debate rests on the fact that words have meaning.

Let's look at the meaning of "racism"

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Can anyone tell me how someone abbreviating "Japanese" as "Jap" is, in any way, shape, or form one of those three things?  Is one race superior because another race calls the second race by an abbreviation?

If you want to read about the origins of the ethnic slur
The term was used in WW2 era when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and when Japanese-Americans were moved to concentration camps , due to fears of Japanese loyalists living in America to spy on America. So what really fueled "Jap" to be a racial slur is how it was used in WW2 as a derogatory term.  Some countries like USA,Canada and UK "Jap" is considered derogatory while in some Asian countries the term is used freely, probably because it never was used as a racist term in those countries to begin with. 

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorApril 06, 2009

That doesn't really help.

That article explains how, 60 years after "Jap" was used in London, some people started using it in a derogatory way.

Likewise, people have been using the word "white" to describe individuals for years.  It's not racist.  But if a group of non-white individuals from a mostly non-white community went and picked on a white individual calling him "white boy" in a snide manner - then THEY are being racist.  But that suddenly doesn't make every single other use of the word "white" into a racist slur.

Flames_of_chaosLukasz Balicki, Staff AlumnusApril 12, 2009

Quote from: UncleBob

That doesn't really help.

That article explains how, 60 years after "Jap" was used in London, some people started using it in a derogatory way.

Likewise, people have been using the word "white" to describe individuals for years.  It's not racist.  But if a group of non-white individuals from a mostly non-white community went and picked on a white individual calling him "white boy" in a snide manner - then THEY are being racist.  But that suddenly doesn't make every single other use of the word "white" into a racist slur.

I guess it's vague on the British reasoning why it's a vulgar term there but it's easily apparent why it's vulgar in North America.

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorApril 12, 2009

Because some people 50 years ago used it in a derogatory manner?  And even that, they didn't use "Jap", per-say, in a derogatory way - just that all Japanese people were undesirable...

So, that brings up the question - if every anti-Japanese poster, slogan and phrase had read "Japanese" instead of "Jap", would PC White Guys be upset over the word "Japanese" today?

NovaQApril 13, 2009

It's possible, just like any word has the potential to take on derogatory meanings.

Maybe I'm missing your point, but I don't believe the intent of this original blog post was to say, "Never use the word 'Jap' because it's evil and racist." It was simply trying to explain that the word has a history of derogatory use and that for some, those old connotations still carry some weight. The point is that we all should be mindful of and responsible for the words we use. Your choice of words is still up to you.

oohhboyHong Hang Ho, Staff AlumnusApril 13, 2009

Quote from: NovaQ

It's possible, just like any word has the potential to take on derogatory meanings.

Maybe I'm missing your point, but I don't believe the intent of this original blog post was to say, "Never use the word 'Jap' because it's evil and racist." It was simply trying to explain that the word has a history of derogatory use and that for some, those old connotations still carry some weight. The point is that we all should be mindful of and responsible for the words we use. Your choice of words is still up to you.

It was quite clear in his first post he did intend and wished to eliminate the word "Jap". He did believe it was evil and racist. His second follow up post showed his disgust to the fact some of us had the audacity to defend the use of the word in a normal manner. He made his post with a clear agenda. While I approve in his goal to reduce racism, I do not approve of his method nor tone after the fact.

To be clear, I am not insulted nor annoyed by his posts. However I refuse to jump just because someone said so. Especially when it's done satisfy one's own guilt complex.

NovaQApril 14, 2009

My bad. Other than that, I still stick to what I posted above.

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