Topic: Episode 302: The Pack-In Police

[Pandareus]

The RFN crew talks about hopes and expectations for the Wii U launch details.

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/rfn/31365

Jon is out this week due to a late work day, and we pushed off RetroActive again (it's definitely happening on 303 now). But there's still plenty to talk about on this show, as we return to a typical length packed with New Business, Listener Mail, and a sizable feature discussion.

James kicks it off with a string of game demo impressions. He enjoys Hybrid on XBLA (a shooter from the guys who made... Scribblenauts?), hates the net code in Heroes of Ruin, disses the tutorial-heavy demo for Dust: An Elysian Tale, and urges you to discover Miyamoto's forgotten gem, Mole Mania, now on 3DS Virtual Console. Guillaume brings a 2D platforming duo with the impressive homebrew level pack called Another New Super Mario Bros. Wii and the far less notable TOSE joint, The Legendary Starfy. Jonny continues that theme with his own take on Sound Shapes (PSN), a game Nintendo should have made themselves, and the WiiWare sequel/reboot Excitebike World Rally, which Nintendo probably should have left in pieces under the tea table.

We intended this to be just a quick preview, but our mini-feature discussion on the Wii U launch went much deeper than expected, and that's a good thing. We go through the date, price, pack-ins, software, retail supply, and media attention with expert predictions at every turn. Nintendo should be announcing the real details very soon, so listen now and see how close we called it! Finally, we tackled a bit of Listener Mail this week, with questions on which WiiWare games should follow ThruSpace and Fluidity on the path to eShop, plus our recommendations for a Nintendo gamer who just picked up a PlayStation 3 and PSP. Please send in your own questions and ideas so we can address them on a future show!

Next week, we'll FINALLY be talking about Wario Land 4 in the oft-delayed RetroActive #23 feature. Listener comments on the game will be pulled from this official forum thread, so drop off your thoughts and maybe they'll be read on the podcast! Also, we hope you'll check out the second episode of Nintendo Free Radio, made by some of our favorite community members. You can also hear what Jonny, Karl, Obi, and Stan have been seeing at the movies over on Box Office Poison.

[SonofMrPeanut]

The timing of this title is perfect, actually.  I'm moving to Cambridge, MA this Thursday, and I have to stuff as much into as few boxes as possible. XD

[geo]

In regards to the pricing of games, it's more than just the price (where lower = more sales and higher = less sales).  I worked at a gamestop for a long time, and there is a customer perception where if a game releases at less than 60, it's not worth buying.  That's why you get mediocre games releasing at 60, and then quickly dropping later.  There is a stigma with games that release for 'less' than full price.  If you have assassin's creed 3 on all 3 systems, but the wii U one is 50, the customers will automatically assume it is an inferior product without knowing anything about it.  To compete with ps3 and 360 it needs to price match them, even if that means they need to raise the price of their games.  It's a total customer perception thing. 

[Pandareus]

I had this point in the back of my mind but I failed to make it. Thanks man.

[broodwars]

I really disagree with James on Dust: An Elysian Tail, and I've probably played about the amount of time at the beginning of the game that comprises the demo.  I picked up the game last week, but only had a chance to play the first 30-45 minutes or so before I loaned my 360 out to my best friend (so I could get my Wii back for The Last Story).  I found the game really charming (the characters remind me a lot of 1980s-era Don Bluth designs and the overall tone reminds me of Secret of Nimh, which makes sense considering the game's developer has a 2D animation background), and the combat easy-to-comprehend and engaging.  I also thought the dialogue was quite amusing, very much in the same style as something like the original Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars.

C'mon, when you run into the mysterious, cloaked shopkeeper for the first time, the game drops two direct references in the dialogue to Resident Evil 4! How can you not love that?   :

[Do_What]

I just started, but I agree with James about Dust. I found the game to be pretty unbearable. The furry aesthetic absolutely doesn't work for me. The music doesn't feel terribly distinctive either? Overall it's just another action platformer and there have definitely been better a lot of better titles in the past couple of years. The animation is nice, and the graphics are very crisp, but I just don't enjoy the art direction at all. If you don't like the art there really isn't a whole lot to enjoy in this game. The combat looks flashy, but where I am two hours into it you just spam one or two moves and watch the counter go up. It misses a lot of nuance to the combat. There are very specific action pacing issues that you don't encounter in stuff like viewtiful joe or the castlevania games. I just felt it was sort of weak.

[Pixelated Pixies]

On the debate about whether or not NyxQuest would work on 3DS, I have to side with Gui that it would be pretty awkward. You could of course put all the action down on the bottom screen but then you would be neglecting the larger and prettier upper screen (not everyone has an XL).

If you were to put the action on the top screen and use the bottom touch screen to interact with items (with the position and movement of the stylus being indicated on the top screen by a reticule) then you would come across another issue.

In that game much of your time is spent holding up blocks for your character to stand on, or lifting obstacles out of the way to allow your character to move under them. If you were to move your character with the circle pad and use the stylus with your free hand (let's say your right hand), in terms of reachable buttons that only leaves the left bumper. With the touch screen being different from the screen on which the action is happenening I feel like you would need an action button for gripping and releasing (as you would not be directly touching the blocks themselves and moving them). Using the bumper to do this just seems awkward. My experience with Uprising also taught me that holding the system like that can be pretty painful.
 
I do love the Wiiware game though and would to see a sequel (preferrably on Wii U).
 

[Disco Stu]

Oh God, now that the 3DS XL/NSMB2 releases are past, I'm going to be expecting a Nintendo Direct announcement every single day until there is one.  If they hold out on this info into September, it is going to be painful.

[Glad0s]

As far as the whole "PS3 for Nintendo Gamers" thing goes, a couple of games come to mind. First off, we have ModNation Racers, which is essentially a better version of Mario Kart with a whole mess of creation tools. Probably the best kart racer I've played. There's also the WipeOut series, which is....pretty much F-Zero. Also, there's Outland, which is an awesome combination of Ikaruga, classic 2D Mario, and Super Metroid....Greg needs to play that game.


In regards to the Wii U, I pretty much perfectly echo Jonny's opinion. 250 bucks, no Wiimote+, and some sort of eShop related pack-in. Bam. Also, there HAS to be some sort of GameCube related Virtual Console. Please.

[Crimm]

C'mon, when you run into the mysterious, cloaked shopkeeper for the first time, the game drops two direct references in the dialogue to Resident Evil 4! How can you not love that?   : : :

Because it's not 2005. That's like asking why "The Cake is a Lie" jokes aren't funny anymore.





...or why anything Chuck Lorre ever made was never funny.

[TJ Spyke]

The Big Bang Theory is one of the funniest shows on TV, and that is a Chuck Lorre show.

[Shaymin]

If Big Bang Theory is one of the funniest things on TV, I'm cancelling my cable since there's clearly nothing worth watching.

[bhurak]

In regards to the pricing of games, it's more than just the price (where lower = more sales and higher = less sales).  I worked at a gamestop for a long time, and there is a customer perception where if a game releases at less than 60, it's not worth buying.  That's why you get mediocre games releasing at 60, and then quickly dropping later.  There is a stigma with games that release for 'less' than full price.  If you have assassin's creed 3 on all 3 systems, but the wii U one is 50, the customers will automatically assume it is an inferior product without knowing anything about it.  To compete with ps3 and 360 it needs to price match them, even if that means they need to raise the price of their games.  It's a total customer perception thing. 

Do you think there's a chance keeping the lower price could help avoid the downward price expectation? If it's perceived to come out at a slight discount could there be less "wait for the sale" attitude?

[TJ Spyke]

If Big Bang Theory is one of the funniest things on TV, I'm cancelling my cable since there's clearly nothing worth watching.

BBT airs on network TV (NBC), so cancelling your cable will only stop you from seeing the reruns on TBS. BBT is a great show.

[Jonnyboy117]

I will be talking about Dust either this week or next. Let's just say that James may have passed judgement prematurely on this one.


Although many of my friends are big fans, I cannot stand Big Bang Theory. It's not a show for smart people; it makes fun of smart people to appeal to everyone else. The scripts pepper in enough random references to make nerds think someone is talking to them, but it's all a ruse. You want a truly great, hilarious show made by, for, and about nerds? Try Community.

[Jonnyboy117]

Another preview for 303: I got my new XL, and the digital license situation was resolved by Nintendo much more quickly and with greater satisfaction than I ever expected. This has been quite a Monday night over my WiFi network.

[Crimm]

I went to a consignment store...take that for a 303 preview.

[Hey Einstein!]

the digital license situation was resolved by Nintendo much more quickly and with greater satisfaction than I ever expected. This has been quite a Monday night over my WiFi network.

Here here on all the Big Bang hate. It is not funny. It is not clever. It has nothing to say to geek culture and I am right!!!


Jonny, out of interest did you get to keep your saves on your eshop and ambassador games? I did a system transfer for my XL and lost all my saves and can't find a way to recover them. Backed up my SD card first, all that.


As for PSP/PS3 games for Nintendo fans: my most played PSP games have all been minis. The Mediatonic games Monsters (Probably) Stole my Princess and Who's That Flying are both gems. You can get them together in a cheaper bundle now & they play on both systems. Who's that Flying was the best game I played last year (but avoid the touch controlled iOS version!). Also, if you don't have it on another system, Pacman CE is truley brilliant - not Nintedo-ish exactly but retro chic, completely addictive and pretty cheap.

Finally on this subject my heart sinks whenever I hear Team ICO games recommended for Zelda fans as on the podcast. This is the reason I played them both and I feel the same way about these games as Gui feels about Loco Roco!
They look nice...... and that is it. I hated Ico (despite playing it to completion, hoping I would change my mind). The controls suck, which makes the puzzles very frustrating. I spent hours trying to line up jumps with wind mill sails and the water mill wheel (the latter was cut for the US release - you guys got lucky!). The puzzles were plain bad. The story left me cold. The game rules suddenly change, most jarringly was when you go from having to defeat every shadow in a room to proceed and are then blocked by infinite re spawning shadows with no warning or explanation. I was hacking away for ages before I released what was happening. At least the games is short! I hated this game so much, I was truly surprised at myself.


And I stopped playing Shadow of the Colossus when I realized that it wasn't a game about fighting bosses but about watching concentric HUD circles filling up followed by button mashing. All these beautiful graphics were flying by and I was just looking at the stupid circles. (for those unfamiliar, you have to grip to the Colossi and the circles show how strong your grip is). I played half of the game and gave up, not one boss fight was a patch on a Zelda boss battle anyway and it all stank of trial and error game play.


So yeah, the Last Guardian can rot in vapourware hell as far as I am concerned.
Aren't I a ray of sunshine this morning!

[Hey Einstein!]

That last post was too long.

[Pixelated Pixies]

That last post was too long.

I just burned through 5 books from A Song of Fire and Ice in the space of 3 months. Don't talk to me about long.

[Ceric]

I will be tweeting as I listen to the episode with the Hashtag #RFN303 #Preview

[Crimm]

I am proud of me.

[Pandareus]

As far as the whole "PS3 for Nintendo Gamers" thing goes, a couple of games come to mind. First off, we have ModNation Racers, which is essentially a better version of Mario Kart with a whole mess of creation tools. Probably the best kart racer I've played. There's also the WipeOut series, which is....pretty much F-Zero. Also, there's Outland, which is an awesome combination of Ikaruga, classic 2D Mario, and Super Metroid....Greg needs to play that game.

I don't really love any of those games. Granted, I've only played the demo of ModNation Racers, but the racing and physics felt better in MKW, to me.

I also very much disagree with the idea that "WipeOut is pretty much F-Zero". On the surface, they're both fast-paced futuristic hovercraft racers, sure, but the track design and the way the hovercrafts control are completely different. I don't like WipeOut all that much, but F-Zero GX was one of my favorite games of that gen...

[Glad0s]

I went to a consignment store...take that for a 303 preview.

.....I'm scared.

As far as the whole "PS3 for Nintendo Gamers" thing goes, a couple of games come to mind. First off, we have ModNation Racers, which is essentially a better version of Mario Kart with a whole mess of creation tools. Probably the best kart racer I've played. There's also the WipeOut series, which is....pretty much F-Zero. Also, there's Outland, which is an awesome combination of Ikaruga, classic 2D Mario, and Super Metroid....Greg needs to play that game.

I don't really love any of those games. Granted, I've only played the demo of ModNation Racers, but the racing and physics felt better in MKW, to me.

I also very much disagree with the idea that "WipeOut is pretty much F-Zero". On the surface, they're both fast-paced futuristic hovercraft racers, sure, but the track design and the way the hovercrafts control are completely different. I don't like WipeOut all that much, but F-Zero GX was one of my favorite games of that gen...

I can see your point. WipeOut definitely controls pretty differently than F-Zero. Also, the physics in ModNation are a little different than Mario Kart as well, but to be honest...I prefer ModNation's. To each his own, I suppose.[/size][/font]

They look nice...... and that is it. I hated Ico (despite playing it to completion, hoping I would change my mind). The controls suck, which makes the puzzles very frustrating. I spent hours trying to line up jumps with wind mill sails and the water mill wheel (the latter was cut for the US release - you guys got lucky!). The puzzles were plain bad. The story left me cold. The game rules suddenly change, most jarringly was when you go from having to defeat every shadow in a room to proceed and are then blocked by infinite re spawning shadows with no warning or explanation. I was hacking away for ages before I released what was happening. At least the games is short! I hated this game so much, I was truly surprised at myself.

And I stopped playing Shadow of the Colossus when I realized that it wasn't a game about fighting bosses but about watching concentric HUD circles filling up followed by button mashing. All these beautiful graphics were flying by and I was just looking at the stupid circles. (for those unfamiliar, you have to grip to the Colossi and the circles show how strong your grip is). I played half of the game and gave up, not one boss fight was a patch on a Zelda boss battle anyway and it all stank of trial and error game play.

Hmmm....I agree with you on Ico. I played about two hours of it and put it away because the controls and awful combat were getting to me. If it was nothing but a puzzle game and there was significantly less combat, sorta like Portal, I'd be OK with it. But as it is....meh.


Now, as for Shadow of the Colossus, it's a different story. I LOVED that game. I really don't see it as being similar to Zelda in the slightest, and I feel that the story is WAAAAYYY overrated, but for what it is, I found it excellent....even if it does come down to nothing more than concentric circles and timed button presses. The level design, exploration, and awesome bosses more than made up for the slightly repetitive gameplay, to me.


And that's the end of my quote filled response. Hoo-ah.

[ResettisCousin]

I've listened to all of the past 200 episodes and some of the first 100.

The 'whatcha playing' segments over the last year have been too long and with too little interaction between the crew. This is probably in part because of the Wii's release slowdown scattering playing time across other systems. With that said, I think a 2 game or 10 minute total per person 'watcha playing' limit would benefit the show.

Adding to the sterile feeling where each member nearly monologues his 'watcha playing' is the NWR trademark over-editing where nearly all cross talk is snipped out and the listener is left with something like a behind-the-scenes DVD extra of a cast's first table read.

And I meant to email in about Craig Harris's "some fansite" comment on the recent IGN Beyond episode. Seriously-- what's up with that? When he said he was 'sound bited' did he mean by NWR (aformentioned hyper-editing) or by someone like gonintnedo decontextualizing?