Topic: 3rd Party Games

[kirby_killer_dedede]

The DS has terrific 3rd Party support.  3rd Party support that any company should be jealous of.  Almost a ridiculous amount of 3rd Party support.  But you know, none of that is really worth anything unless the 3rd parties make good games.  And I haven't seen one good game from outside Japan on the DS.  Just in the past month, IGN has given:

ATV Quad Frenzy a 4.8
Scooby Doo! Unmasked a 6.5
Elf Bowling a 1.0
Dragon Booster a 2.5
Ford Racing 3 a 5.0
Snood 2 a 4.5 (how do you screw up Snood with touch screen control?)
King Kong a 3.0
Burnout Legends a 3.5 (I had such high hopes...)
SEGA Casino a 5.5
The Incredibles a 6.3
NFS: Most Wanted a 4.0

And it really pisses me off when I see Madden 2006 DS get a 6, and Madden 2006 PSP get an 8.5.  Or Burnout for PSP score 5 points higher than the DS version.  What's the problem?  I mean Shogun Empires, a game destined to succeed, what with an RTS with touchscreen control and all, was given a 2.5. Do developers simply not care about the DS?  Is that why they put together a bunch of crap and ship it out?  

And this isn't a thread about how IGN doesn't know how to score games either.  

[IceCold]

Well, it probably has quite a bit to do the fact that developers are still experimenting with the touch screen, and feel like they can throw in small, inconsequential games as fast as they can to test their ideas out, as well as the market. I could forgive the games at the DS launch for being rushed, but this is just inexcusable. I do think the idea that the DS is for these small games is out there among developers, but with the recent deep titles that use the DS well, that notion is changing, and I'm sure we'll get more games with higher production values from 3rd parties soon. You also have to remember that many of those games are just generic games or quick ports. The DS will still have its fair share of real games that have been worked on for a long time.

And also, even though there are quite a few of these types of games, look at the 3rd party games that have actually been great - Sonic Rush, Castlevania etc

[Sir_Stabbalot]

If Westwood was still around, we may have a new Command and Conquer coming for DS. But no, EA buys them and kills them...

[kirby_killer_dedede]

As I said, Japanese games have been great.  But it's these American developers...well okay, I'll put it like this.  The only difference as far as games go between the DS and PSP is power, right?  I don't think power is reason enough to create two games that are completely incomparable in quality (I'm referring to the two versions of Madden 06).  And then it really pisses me off when I see that Mario Basketball's in development, which seems as deep as the PSP version of Madden (I'm grouping sports games together).  And then I see Final Fantasy, which is as beautiful as anything I've seen on the PSP.  I'm probably rambling but I don't see any excuse for developers to be slacking off.  And it's not that it isn't possible to make a great game, there's tons of terrific DS games.  I just haven't seen a single one coming from this side of the Atlantic other than Narnia, which is suprisingly deep for a licensed handheld game.  

[Karl Castaneda #2]

Well, soon we'll have Black & White and Age of Empires.

[kirby_killer_dedede]

Age of Empires is another story.  Last I heard (E3), the developers aren't taking the huge opportunity they have and AoE DS is no longer an RTS.  WTF?  

[darknight06]

Japanese titles have been fantastic.  Castlevania DoS is pure gold.  So is Phoenix Wright, Trauma Center, Sonic Rush, Meteos, and Lost in Blue.  And I know I didn't list them all.  The western front has been another story altogether

The only western group I've seen that seems to care enough about things is Vicarious Visions with their Activision games.  After Ultimate Spiderman and Tony Hawk American Sk8land, I'm more than convinced that those guys are going places with the DS.   Now it's everybody else I'm having an issue with.  King Kong almost made me cry, how in the world do you possibly screw up mouselook?  Burnout Legends after a while of play is just bad and is going to get returned.  NFSMW somehow manages to be FAR inferior to Underground 2 without trying. And what's up with games like Wack-a-Mole and Snood?  Also, who's idea was it to botch Zoo Tycoon?Then we have the GBA ports that add just a couple of insulting sparkling innovations just to try and justify it as a $40 game. (now I haven't forgot the east here, Capcom what's up with Megaman Battle Network 5?)  I think my big concern is that I don't see this improving.  I mean, since when have western developers taken the handheld market seriously?  I don't remember them being all that great on the GB or the GBA.

[Ending Walker Tropic]

Look no one takes handheld games seriously, least of all the developers. As far as american third parties are concerned, they only release software on Gamboy/DS/PSP so that they have a chance of being the entirely random game a parent buys with the machine for their son's ninth birthday.
"Scooby Doo? He loves that!"
"Tommy went bowling on sunday maybe I'll get elf bowling for him"

[kirby_killer_dedede]

Except not.  They're taking PSP games VERY seriously.

[Ending Walker Tropic]

No they're not. They're using it as a porting station.
New game comes out on PS2
"hay guyz heres PSP version it's the same but without the fun"
*Reviewers swoon*

[darknight06]

No, PSP looks to be getting much better treatment but really isn't.  Sure you do see a few more gems, but at the same time they get Midnight Club 3 with 75 sec. load times.  EA Sports may be better on PSP, but at the same time no one in their right mind would pay $50US for them either.  Long load times, bad glitches, and loading for trivial in-game activities (definitely looking at you Madden 06) has all but dragged the sports line into the mud on PSP for some people.  And then there's all the "enhanced" ports.   PoP Revelations is nothing more than a stripped down Warrior Within with a few new elements,  long load times, screwed up audio, and a sometimes nasty framerate.  Ultimately the big reason why PSP gets a little better western support is because let's face it, all most of them need to do is just take a console game, trim off a little bit here and there, and call it the day.  DS games have to get remade from the ground up and most companies probably don't even want to bother with anything like that, especially when they have to compete with a big Nintendo, Konami, or Vicarious Visions title.

[Ian Sane]

How many good American third party games can you name for the GBA?  Or how about the GBC or original Gameboy?  Western developers have never really put any serious effort into portable games.  They see it as a way to make scaled down console "ports" to sell another version of a game based on name value.  The PSP has the advantage in that the scaled down ports can actually remain pretty accurate so it looks like it has the better North American support.  Well I guess technically it does but it's not really an indication of enthusiasm.  It's just easier for ports so the games turn out better.

[couchmonkey]

The GBA has pretty decent Western (edit: not just American) support: Wade Hixton's Counterpunch, Racing Gears Advance, Sabre Wulf and It's Mr. Pants are all in my collection and they're all great.  Sigma Star Saga is also in my collection and it's not great, but it doesn't totally suck either - and technically Mario vs. Donkey Kong was developed in the West too.  I only own two Japanese games for the GBA.

I'd say western developer support for the DS hasn't been as good.  I think part of the problem is that we live here.  I've seen articles on crazy Japanese PS2 games that never make it here specifically because they suck and they don't fit in with Western culture.  It's probably safe to say Elf Bowling will never appear in Japan.  So while we don't see all of the worst titles from Japan, of course we see all of the worst from North America (or Europe, or Australia).  

[Ian Sane]

"The GBA has pretty decent Western (edit: not just American) support: Wade Hixton's Counterpunch, Racing Gears Advance, Sabre Wulf and It's Mr. Pants are all in my collection and they're all great."

That's only four games out of the entire GBA library and two of them are made by Rare (who haven't made any DS games yet but will and they'll probably be pretty good).  None of the titles are regarded among the "elite" GBA titles either.  Yeah there is always going to be good western portable games but they're far less frequent and are usually more obscure.  The DS has only been out for a year and has only had a decent stream of releases for half that time.  So at this point I don't see anything irregular about the lack of good non-Japanese third party games on the DS.

[Magik]

Quote
Originally posted by: kirby_killer_dedede
The DS has terrific 3rd Party support.  3rd Party support that any company should be jealous of.  Almost a ridiculous amount of 3rd Party support.  But you know, none of that is really worth anything unless the 3rd parties make good games.  And I haven't seen one good game from outside Japan on the DS.  Just in the past month, IGN has given:

ATV Quad Frenzy a 4.8
Scooby Doo! Unmasked a 6.5
Elf Bowling a 1.0
Dragon Booster a 2.5
Ford Racing 3 a 5.0
Snood 2 a 4.5 (how do you screw up Snood with touch screen control?)
King Kong a 3.0
Burnout Legends a 3.5 (I had such high hopes...)
SEGA Casino a 5.5
The Incredibles a 6.3
NFS: Most Wanted a 4.0

And it really pisses me off when I see Madden 2006 DS get a 6, and Madden 2006 PSP get an 8.5.  Or Burnout for PSP score 5 points higher than the DS version.  What's the problem?  I mean Shogun Empires, a game destined to succeed, what with an RTS with touchscreen control and all, was given a 2.5. Do developers simply not care about the DS?  Is that why they put together a bunch of crap and ship it out?  

And this isn't a thread about how IGN doesn't know how to score games either.

Have you actually played Burnout Legends on the DS and PSP?  If you did, you would know why there's such a big difference in scores.

Burnout on the PSP plays like Burnout where as on the DS... it just sucks.

I think most North American developers just use the DS as a quick return and put more effort into the PSP.  The DS library, when it's all said and done, will look similar to the GBA library... 95% crap.

3rd party PSP games tend to get better reviews than DS 3rd party games simply because developers spend more time on PSP games.  With the greater power of the PSP, have no choice but to put more effort into PSP games.

This is why I think the DS's lack of graphical power may hurt it in the long run.  We are going to see A LOT more crap on the DS.

[Dasmos]

Your face is 95% crap and 4% urine.

Graphical power has basically nothing to do with a good game on the DS. The DS strengths are with control and functionality. If western developers can't add intuitive controls or added functionabilty on the DS when porting their games, then their games deserve to be labelled awful.

So the graphical power of the DS will not hurt it in the long run, but it may hurt your graphic-whore eyes.

[odifiend]

Dasmos, what are you even talking about... Your idiotically debating a truth that is especially true with western devs.

[Magik]

Quote
Originally posted by: Dasmos
Your face is 95% crap and 4% urine.

Graphical power has basically nothing to do with a good game on the DS. The DS strengths are with control and functionality. If western developers can't add intuitive controls or added functionabilty on the DS when porting their games, then their games deserve to be labelled awful.

So the graphical power of the DS will not hurt it in the long run, but it may hurt your graphic-whore eyes.

Oh, a diss!  

Grow up.

[darknight06]

Burnout Legends PSP was actually built by Criterion, that's why it's so much better than the DS one.  The DS version could've been good, but it's quite obvious that they're not willing to do two different versions of the same game from the ground up.  

On Madden, screw both of them!  Give me the console one anyday, at least those run properly.

[JonLeung]

Is anyone else bothered by the fact that of the games IGN rated in the original post, that the Scooby-Doo game has the highest rating of all of them?  It's still not a great score, but it is the highest of those.

Okay, I haven't played the game, and don't know anything about it.  I guess I never imagine Scooby-Doo games to be better than much.

[kirby_killer_dedede]

Magik, my point is not that reviewers are purposely giving bad scores to DS games.  Hell, if anything, more and more of the media are on the DS's side now.  My point is that the developers are at fault, and your comment about Burnout only supports that.  Why couldn't they have been of the same quality?  Dasmos is 100% right, graphical power is no reason for a game to lack quality.

[Magik]

Quote
Originally posted by: kirby_killer_dedede
Magik, my point is not that reviewers are purposely giving bad scores to DS games.  Hell, if anything, more and more of the media are on the DS's side now.  My point is that the developers are at fault, and your comment about Burnout only supports that.  Why couldn't they have been of the same quality?  Dasmos is 100% right, graphical power is no reason for a game to lack quality.

From what I see when I compare both handhelds is the PSP requires A LOT more time to develop compared to the DS.  The DS is still suffering the same problem the GBA had in that most games are developed quickly so it can earn a quick buck and because of the lower power of the system, they can get away with putting little effort.  

Compare that to the PSP where it's capable of PS1/2 graphics so developers can't get away with putting less effort in it.  

It's stupid but it's how it is nowadays.

Using Burnout as another example, IIRC, Criterion developed the PSP version where as the DS version was done by another group with most likely less resources.  

If you think it's bad right now with western developers, watch in the next year or so the DS will be filled with low grade games by those western developers.  

It sucks.

[Dasmos]

Quote
Originally posted by: Magik
Oh, a diss!  

Grow up.

Oh, a retaliation diss!

I thought you were above that Magik.

Grow up.

[Kairon]

Oh! A Dissing match!

I thought you guys were above this.

Grow... into wonderful human beings...

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com