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Super Smash Bros. Ultimate And The Never-Ending 3rd Party Character DLC
Luigi Dude:
--- Quote from: Adrock on March 10, 2018, 10:56:43 PM ---That said, I can't see Snake coming back or any Konami character being added (which includes Bomberman) if only out of Sakurai's respect for Hideo Kojima. As much as I'd like to see a Belmont, #fuckKonami.
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Even if Sakurai has strong feelings against Konami because of what they did to Kojima, I could see Bomberman getting in more as a way to honor Hudson. It was Nintendo that approached Konami to get the most recent Bomberman made and many of Hudsons former employee's work for Nintendo now, so I could see there being a push inside Nintendo for him and Sakurai using it to give tribute to Hudson by filling his stage with cameo's of other Hudson characters and music from several of their series.
Of course I wonder if Kojima himself would be in favor of Snake returning to Smash Bros. All the drama with Konami was going on during Smash 3DS/Wii U development but that's been a few years now. I mean Kojima was suppose to be a big fan of Smash Bros, so now that he isn't locked in Konami's dungeon, he might enjoy seeing the character he created in Smash Bros again. Of course it would be funny if this happens and Sakurai lets Kojima himself design the Metal Gear stage and they bring back the Codec conversations and both men sneak in a few jabs at Konami with some of them.
Evan_B:
As much as I’d like to have a healthy showing for runes, there are too many that are very situational in execution. I picked the options I found easiest to implement into gameplay- Cryonis and Magnesis just feel like the more awkward fits, and I mean, Revali’s Gale is just begging to be an Up-B. As for the other Champion abilities, the only one I could see working (likely replacing stasis because no one likes Witch Time) would be Daruk’s protection, which could have a reflect property and maybe a three-time usage before breaking.
As for MagicCow’s insistence on gameplay refinements- dude, you are essentially championing the philosophy that buried Marvel vs Capcom Infinite. They took out beloved characters because others could operate in the same “function” and people went nuts because both casual and FGC players want the same thing, which is to play as their favorites. When you talk Nintendo and ESPECIALLY Smash Bros., you’re talking about IP that fans love and Nintendo is actively attempting to promote. It makes no sense for them to toss out characters, nor does it make sense for them to radically revamp the platform fighter mechanics, a sub-genre they themselves championed. You keep saying that we’re missing the point when every point you attempt to make further shows no understanding of the fighting game community or even Smash as a whole. The game gives you options for how you want to specifically want it to work, and you’re saying the base game is stale?
MagicCow64:
--- Quote from: Oedo on March 10, 2018, 07:53:28 PM ---
--- Quote from: MagicCow64 on March 10, 2018, 05:53:38 PM ---I'll try to be clearer since I'm causing confusion. (And Ike and Roy absolutely are based on the same Marth special moveset, which is the "soul" of a character in my book. There's no need for Marth, Ike, Roy, and Lucina to all co-exist. It's different tires on the same bicycle. Like I said, stuff about the damage gradient on the swords or hitboxes or whatever is missing the point. But we're setting that aside!)
-Is it not true that Melee remains significantly more popular than any other version of the game for tournaments? Is the Street Fighter II scene bigger than SF V?
-Regardless of competitive stuff, the base game is stale. Squeezing in an increasingly marginal extra 15 characters into the same Smash4 framework is a diminishing returns proposition. I'd rather they take another crack at reinventing the no-combo-input fighting genre, and/or rebuild a smaller core set of characters from the ground up to make things fresh instead of having 50 characters that are significantly worse than (or redundant with) 25 other characters (and hey, that could even help the competitive stuff too!). I'd personally prefer novel mechanics over maximal fan service. And if what you say is true, this should be fine because the games are all totally separate from and coeval with each other!
-Also, having 75 characters makes it less likely they'll have meaningful single player challenges and such. Smash4 was quite disappointing in this respect already. I want the targets back!
-Some random ideas: Incorporate counters into shielding or dodging or something instead of a bunch of characters having it as a special move. Remix the clones into the custom move system so there are single roster slots that you can change into variants like you do with costumes now.
But again, just spitballing. Hopefully they've got some surprises in store. Even just adding stock online modes for randos and having the option to remove dynamic elements like the yellow Mega Man monster from stages would be an improvement.
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Melee's competitive scene is probably larger, yeah, but I still don't understand the relevance of bringing that up. You could make the next Smash Bros. game better balanced, give it more interesting mechanics, or do just about anything, and most Melee players would just keep playing Melee because that's the only game they want to play (and the scene would most likely remain larger as a result). If you look at Smash 4's competitive scene on its own, it was at EVO Japan 2018, will be at the main EVO tournament for the fourth straight year, and has large tournaments taking place regularly. The fact that Melee's competitive scene is larger just says that it's even more successful and, as I alluded to earlier, Nintendo is not going to convert that fanbase no matter how good or how different the next Smash Bros. game is.
When you start talking about significantly altering the gameplay or rebuilding from the ground up, you might as well make a new series at that point. If you're going to greatly change the mechanics and focus on a smaller set of characters that are largely distinct from their current Smash Bros. iterations, you've basically rebooted the series. Maybe that's what you want and what you're trying to get at, but given that most fans are happy with the core gameplay in its current form (with most complaints being levied at stuff like single-player content or online modes) and the fact that the series continues to enjoy great critical and commercial success, I don't think that's a path Nintendo really needs to follow.
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I would think it was obvious that the competitive viability discussion is a proxy for mechanical depth/"game feel". I'm no pro player, but I still liked Melee the best, and from what I've read the Melee competitive die-hards have pretty specific and understandable problems with how Brawl and 4 play. I don't think it's crazy to think people would gravitate toward a new game that didn't have compromised physics, 90% unviable characters, or whathaveyou. Another bigger, messier, pretty good party game is not that interesting to me at this point, even if I'm not personally able to reach an upper-tier play level. Obviously Nintendo is not particularly interested in my edge-case predilections, but I think they could and should take some risks with the next game beyond "have the 64DD be a fighter" or "make it slightly less/more slow and floaty". Buuut there's now a rumor that the new game started out as Smash4 deluxe and expanded its spec far enough to be marketed as a sequel, and if that's the case we probably know what to expect outside of some tweaking.
Adrock:
--- Quote from: Luigi Dude on March 11, 2018, 12:49:10 AM ---I could see there being a push inside Nintendo for him and Sakurai using it to give tribute to Hudson by filling his stage with cameo's of other Hudson characters and music from several of their series.
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I mean, that's similar to how we got Pac-Man (though Sakurai originally said no for Brawl) except without the baggage of an anti-developer company like Konami. It certainly helped Pac-Man's case that Namco Bandai developed the Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS.
I'd liken this situation to whether you should date your best friend's ex. You probably shouldn't period as a basic courtesy (i.e. date literally anybody else), but if you did, your friend may give their blessing then realize how shitty it feels when you and their ex get together. I liked Snake in Brawl, but he wasn't so important to the series that it's worth crossing any lines. Nintendo, as a corporation, can make deals with Konami because that's business. Sakurai, as an individual who values his independence, would be enabling Konami's terrible practices by including even a Hudson character. There are quite a few Konami IPs I'd love to see in Super Smash Bros. However, I'd personally like to see the show of solidarity even more (again, #fuckKonami). Maybe Nintendo suggests a Konami character, but I wouldn't put much weight behind that unless Konami is developing the game. After Melee, Sakurai has been getting his way more often than not.
--- Quote from: Evan_B on March 11, 2018, 03:47:57 AM ---As much as I’d like to have a healthy showing for runes, there are too many that are very situational in execution. I picked the options I found easiest to implement into gameplay- Cryonis and Magnesis just feel like the more awkward fits, and I mean, Revali’s Gale is just begging to be an Up-B.
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That's fair though there's a lot of cheating in the series to get certain moves to work. I gave Toon Link a Korok Leaf that would have an updraft coming from nowhere. I wanted Hylian Champion Link to have something different. Magnesis Flying is one of the coolest things you can do in the game. The metal crates could have certain properties. They could cause damage with no flinch while in Magnesis, do more damage when falling from a greater height, and break when hitting the ground from a greater height while remaining intact from lesser height (then be carried/thrown like Wario's bike). Just so the stage isn't full of metal crates, Link can only use Magnesis Flying when no other crates are on the field, creating another risk/reward scenario.
Evan_B:
Melee had 90% unviable characters for 10 years before people started utilizing different strategies.
Smash 4 is a fine game, it’s not as technical as Melee but it doesn’t have to be.