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Messages - UERD

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426
Nintendo Gaming / RE: Free Online!
« on: July 23, 2007, 08:34:46 AM »
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Well lets look at an MMO from the fee standpoint, even one made by Nintendo. The concept (whatever it would be) would have to revolve around a environment in which a, well, massive amount of people could play on. This results in the need for dedicated servers, moderators, and a development team that could update content / fix content should it need to be done. This would result in a financial hit to the company if they had no monthly subscription fee.


Not to mention the storage capacity they'd need for updates ands stuff. Are we scheduled to get a hard drive accessory (or USB Mass Storage support) anytime within the near future?

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Battle.net got raped by cheaters and hackers and well, Sony's service is subpar in its content offerings compared to the likes of XBL and Nintendo's service


To be fair, it's a lot easier to control hackers when it's a closed system (e.g. console), and XBL has been out a lot longer than Sony's service. That, and Sony doesn't like making games anymore. No more games. Games are so last-gen.

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Nintendo Gaming / RE: Free Online!
« on: July 23, 2007, 02:14:04 AM »
For some reason I thought you said 'tub' instead of 'hub'.

But I wouldn't pay anything for online ever. Blizzard has been running their excellent battle.net service for games like Starcraft and Diablo for free for the last decade or so, and Sony's service is apparently free as well.

428
General Gaming / RE: Sega Gamegear Discussion Thread
« on: July 22, 2007, 01:45:48 PM »
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It truly was the PSP of its time.


Of course, one of the key differences being that the Game Gear actually had games.

429
Nintendo Gaming / RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl (nsf56k)
« on: July 22, 2007, 01:43:45 PM »
Introducing...SUPER SMASH PHILOSOPHERS MELEE! Duel up to four people in your room over over the Internet as your favorite long-dead intellectual thinker! Marvel as Zeno's paradoxes slow even the fastest of characters to a grinding crawl, making them easy prey for a knockout attack! Watch in horror as Nietzsche's will to power transforms him into the ubermensch, allowing him to wipe the floor with his opponents! Gasp as Kierkegaard instills fear and trembling within his foes by undercutting their very reasons for existing within the universe! Coming to the Wii® this fall! Pre-order your copy today!  

430
With one stroke, PLAYSTATION 3 has made customers, profits, and games obsolete. Take that, Nintendo!

431
General Chat / RE: Wii, Mac's, and Wi-Fi
« on: July 20, 2007, 02:50:48 PM »
As long as it's 802.11g compliant, it should be fine. But I remember Nintendo has a list of incompatible routers somewhere. I'd check that if I were you; Macs will work with any normal router because it's an industry standard.

432
Nintendo Gaming / RE: The true meaning of "DS"
« on: July 20, 2007, 02:47:23 PM »
This, like people reading books, talking on the phone, and eating pizza while on the crapper, makes me want to cry.  

433
General Gaming / RE: X-Box Live for Windows
« on: July 20, 2007, 02:45:51 PM »
It won't make a dent in market share for dedicated PC games, but if MS wants to implement XBox vs. PC functionality in their future games, they could get an audience that way.

Personally, I wish Nintendo had just asked Blizzard to write them netcode.

434
Nintendo Gaming / RE: Nintendo... Rising To Heaven
« on: July 20, 2007, 02:23:49 PM »
I thought it was a pun on the literal meaning of their name...see the first section).

I don't know if they'd ever be able to get #1. I looked at a recent list of the US or world's biggest companies (can't remember which), and almost all of them were car or oil companies. Unless Nintendo can make games as widespread as cars and petroleum...  

435
General Gaming / RE: Are Video Games Art?
« on: July 20, 2007, 02:18:24 PM »
Of course there is bad 'art'...or to be more specific, 'art' that does not fulfill its aesthetic purpose very effectively. Take a look at all the crappy novels that they sell at drugstores in the US, or most of the stuff on a public art website like deviantart, or Battlefield Earth. But those works ultimately try to accomplish the same goals as a Shakespearean play, the Mona Lisa, or a movie like...I don't know, Citizen Kane. They try to move your sense of beauty, like one of the posted definitions said. And while people's tastes are 'kind' of subjective (which makes the process of defining 'good' and 'bad' art maddening for people with the engineering mindset), ultimately enough people will be moved to say that Michaelangelo's sculpture of David, or the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, or Beethoven's Ninth Symphony are conclusively and objectively among the 'best' works of art that humanity has created. So, the OP is right. People need to make a clearer distinction between bad art and 'non-art'.

Also, artforms don't spring out of nowhere fully formed and ready to be embraced by critics and academics. For writing this really isn't that clear, because people have been composing written text since the beginning of civilization, but as Ian said, it's definitely visible when you consider movies. One of the big things, though, that games don't have as much as other 'forms of art' is general acceptance. Things are changing, but still novels, painting, music, and movies are regularly appreciated by a wide slice of the general population. Although we are moving away from this image (and have come a long way recently), a lot of people still think of games as glorified electronic toys played by delinquent adolescents at arcades. It doesn't matter if Miyamoto makes something that puts the classics to shame if the majority of the people who will even consider touching it are 12 to 24 year olds.

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And honestly if we don't want the government censoring games we need to treat games like art. If we don't want sloppy crap like screwed up buttons on Mega Man Anniversary Collection we need those making games to treat their work like art. If we don't want some old games lost like old films are then we need games to be considered art.


This is a really, really good point.  

436
General Gaming / RE: Just FYI, Silicon Knights suing Epic
« on: July 20, 2007, 08:22:52 AM »
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just because you license use of an Engine doesn't mean you're a hack or you think someone else will do the creative work for you


Not this game, but the mindset of a lot of other games (especially where the engine is the key selling point).

I should mention that I first read this thread right after reading that SK interview, which left a bad taste in my mouth. Again, there is nothing inherently wrong with an external engine (it's pretty much the only cost-effective way for a small developer to make a non-casual game), and not all (or even most) developers who outsource engine work are anything near lazy hacks, but there are a lot of them who think they can compensate through the engine.

437
General Gaming / RE: Just FYI, Silicon Knights suing Epic
« on: July 20, 2007, 07:49:34 AM »
Epic is definitely in breach of contract- and definitely in a conflict of interest scenario, but after reading the SK interview I find it hard to feel sorry for them.

So a pox on both their houses.

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As things become more complex to get what consumers now expect from games and the like take more and more of a devout focus. You wouldn't want your DB Admin to right the Database program and then administer it. No you use MySQL or Oracle. Though thats for another time.


I completely agree. No amount of code is going to allow a talentless hack to turn out a masterpiece, though. Developers need to learn to take the older software tools to their limit, rather than relying on 'next-gen' as a crutch. Why do I care? Because next-gen = next-gen hardware = higher prices. And when some XBox games are going up to $70+, it's worrying.

438
TalkBack / RE: PREVIEWS: Harvest Moon: Tree of Peace
« on: July 20, 2007, 03:01:36 AM »
No Wi-Fi? Wouldn't this be the second easiest game to make online-capable, after something like 'Wii Chess'?

439
General Gaming / RE: Just FYI, Silicon Knights suing Epic
« on: July 19, 2007, 04:57:52 PM »
Bleh, engine crap. I'm all for improved technology and better code mastery, but I swear that video games are the first art form where the 'artists' seriously think that their tools are going to do the creative heavy lifting for them.

440
Nintendo Gaming / RE: Official Wii Sales Thread
« on: July 19, 2007, 04:44:25 PM »
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No, truth is...to hardcore gamers and many 3rd party developers the Wii will never be considered a success. Because the technology is old, and the graphics aren't "competitive" with the other consoles.


QFT.

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Microsoft can never be the market leader because their systems are nothing more then a niche for Western style sports, shooters and action games. To the rest of the world and even here in America, Microsoft doesn't have enough variety to appeal to the average gamer because the average gamer has many different taste. When your biggest title, Halo 3 is a first person shooter, and your other big titles like Bioshock are also first person shooters, who exactly is that going to appeal to besides the hardcore Western gamer?


QFT, part 2. Although Halo 3 will definitely be a great game by its own merits, I seriously doubt it's going to move as many systems as Halo 1 and 2.

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(from recent sales figures)
# PlayStation 2 - 15,777
# PLAYSTATION 3 - 13,493


Keep it up, PS3! You're almost there! Just a little bit further! Let's go, let's go! Don't give up!

441
General Gaming / CONFIRMED: Halo 3 to be Wii-killer...
« on: July 19, 2007, 04:37:45 PM »
...says another idiot executive.

Dave Perry says gamers will drop Wiimotes for Halo 3

I think one of the commenters said it the best:

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Well of course I'll drop my Wiimote when Halo 3 comes out. I can't play on my 360 with my Wiimote. I'll pick it right back up again when I'm through, though.

442
Nintendo Gaming / RE: Bully: Scholarship Rdition announced for Wii
« on: July 19, 2007, 12:13:03 PM »
OH MY GOODNESS. This game is about kids at a school. Therefore, it is teh k!ddy. WHERE ARE MY MATURE GAMES, THIRD PARTIES?

443
Nintendo Gaming / RE:Was anyone else disappointed by E3 this year?
« on: July 19, 2007, 12:09:14 PM »
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My argument is that very little of what Wii Fit is looks like a game.


Yeah, Brain Age didn't really look like a game either. What were we supposed to expect- shooting aliens on a distant planet while being yelled at by the disembodied head of a famous Japanese neuroscientist? Oh joy! Math problems! Not everything in Brain Age is what we'd perceive as 'fun'.

How many copies did Brain Age sell, again? People don't buy these things because they want engrossing, billion-polygon immersive gameplay experiences. Instead, all it really takes is for the game to be at least a bit more interesting than the alternative (doing a sheet of math problems, pushups in your bedroom, et al) for it to sell. People like having their progress tracked and displayed for them to see. It's common sense that the fat guy who goes on an exercise/diet regiment and sees he's losing a pound every week or so is more motivated to continue than the guy who does the same without a scale and is wondering is it really worth it all? Ultimately, that, and the interactivity, are what really make the difference.

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Nintendo never learned how to compete in the old market.


The old market was not worth the effort. People wouldn't fully accept Nintendo games when they were innovative. They'd claim that Nintendo does no-imagination rehashes, and then happily snap up the latest generic FPS or sports game. What happened to all the unique games on XBox 360? How well did they sell? Nintendo had fundamental issues with the so-called self-identified gamer market, and they weren't magically going to go away 'if only Nintendo put in more effort'. Third-party relationships, public perception, the emergence of disruptive franchises like Halo, internal company culture...all these things make long-term planning a exercise in futility at best.

Nintendo could have taken the painstaking old road. Here's what would have had to happen.

- Nintendo keeps up in terms of hardware capabilities for the next ten years or so.
- They repair relationships with important third parties and get games like GTA and Final Fantasy.
- They have to get the public to accept that they are 'cool', even while their two established competitors throw more and more mud at them.
- They have to work on first-party games more 'in-line' with the majority perspective without losing their existing fans.
- They have to hope that some new innovation or game doesn't run away with the market and deal them a KO before their plans go through.

All while staying in 3rd, or at best 2nd place for a long while. Does it really make sense? When compared to the risk that people will lose interest in the Wii en masse, Nintendo really did make the better decision.

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I figure if Nintendo thought there games have always been accessible they would be mentioning how Mario Kart continues to be accessible since it was already instead of it becoming more accessible. To say it the way they're saying it now is like putting down the old games as if they weren't okay to non-gamers but now these new ones are. Considering they have a whole VC of "old" games that they would like everyone to buy I think acting like the old games needed to be fixed is not the best thing to say if your goal is just to trick non-gamers.


There are different levels of accessibility. It's not like a game can only be 'accessible' or 'non-accessible'. Mario Kart is more accessible than, say, Halo, (at least in terms of the learning curve) but it is not the be-all, end-all of accessibility. Nintendo understands that the interface is not an end in and of itself, but rather a means for the console's software to understand what the player's desires are. And the more we can cut out the middleman, the closer we are to that goal. Dedicated buttons are easier to understand than a keyboard, and motion controls are easier to understand than dedicated buttons. Maybe one day we'll have direct brain control, but even if that happens the Remote is still much closer to that end of the abstraction spectrum than the standard controller.

And quite frankly, the VC is targeted towards a completely different market than the non-gamer. Gamers are the ones who have experience playing the old VC games, they are the ones buying them, and they are the ones who would be complaining if anything were to be changed. I can't disagree with the assertion that Nintendo wants everyone to buy their VC games, but then again they'd probably be even happier if everyone just gave them cash without them having to produce anything. They know that the VC's primary market is more 'experienced' gamers and they've positioned it that way.

444
General Gaming / RE: I need suggestions (about getting an XBOX 360)
« on: July 18, 2007, 03:03:53 PM »
Yeah, to tell you the truth, I would wait a couple of months before picking up an XBox 360, in light of the big admission by Microsoft. Until you have explicit proof that their latest hardware revisions have fixed the problem, I wouldn't buy just yet.

445
Nintendo Gaming / RE: Was anyone else disappointed by E3 this year?
« on: July 18, 2007, 03:02:08 PM »
Well, I hope they ramp up production, because people are eventually going to go for substitutes or lose interest. Your step-uncle's coworker's boss isn't going to wait outside a Best Buy for three weeks just to get his hands on a Wii.

446
Nintendo Gaming / RE: Was anyone else disappointed by E3 this year?
« on: July 18, 2007, 11:37:54 AM »
Guess how many copies of SSBM Nintendo sold? 6 million. Guess how many copies of Halo (1) sold on the XBox? 8 million. How the hell was Nintendo supposed to compete with Sony and Microsoft last generation on *their* terms? The N64 was definitely not less 'cool' or more 'k!ddy' than the PS1 (in fact, the PS1 looked positively dowdy compared to the N64). Never mind that Nintendo lost market share that generation and came in second (out of two consoles). What were they supposed to do?

Nintendo's franchises have to struggle to be considered 'hardcore'. There's nothing on any other console like Smash Bros, Metroid, or Zelda...and perception-wise, that's not a good thing. Smash Bros is seen as the 'black sheep' of fighting games, Metroid for FPS games, and Zelda for RPGs...even though none of those games belong in the aforementioned categories. 'Hardcore' gamers don't give a wooden nickel when Nintendo 'innovates', with a couple of exceptions.

Nintendo's last-gen lineup was actually pretty excellent. There were several very good third party games (although the overall quantity was not large) and a whole lot more very good first party games. Would they have done better if they had heavily emphasized graphics and gone for the FPS/Grand Theft Auto market? They might have, but there would be no guarantee that they would have been able to recapture the big franchises (like Final Fantasy). Actually, it's probably a good thing they didn't do that from a business standpoint: Halo would have had a much more adverse effect on Nintendo sales if it had been directly competing with Nintendo games.

So, no, Nintendo could NOT have maintained a viable business without reaching outwards. It's not like people were going to see Nintendo come out with a black-on-black chromed console with a 6 Ghz chip that cost $500 and been 'wow, no more k!ddy!'. Or to put it another way, how much better would the PS3 be doing if Nintendo's franchises were somehow magically transplanted to it?

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This is a very inspiring scene you've painted here, Kairon. But I really don't think a wiimote alone is going to bring about a gaming revolution like we were led to believe. At least, it hasn't yet. In this attempt to explode in all directions, in all it's senses, Nintendo seems to be neglecting one important aspect of gaming--graphics (YES, it's important, or Miyamoto wouldn't be going out of his way to make Galaxy look as beautiful as it does), and a budding aspect of gaming--online.


Ya, graphics are important. How many people have a HDTV and HDMI inputs? How many people really care that much about the difference between last generation and this generation? The biggest improvements were going from the SNES era to the N64 era, and from the N64 era to the Cube era. Any improvements in the future are going to be more and more incremental.

Unfortunately, I think I have to agree with you when you say they've neglected online .

447
Nintendo Gaming / RE: Was anyone else disappointed by E3 this year?
« on: July 18, 2007, 12:20:25 AM »
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That's why 3rd parties are all the more critical. How they choose to stand up to the order remains to be seen. Rarely have they demonstrated ample dedication to Nintendo's console. I know it's easy to say to have patience, but some of us have been sitting on our hands off and on for years waiting for such support. We're at a "show me" point.


I agree that 3rd parties are critical- I think they're probably the most critical part of the puzzle. But if that's the case, what is Nintendo supposed to do? They're already giving them developer support, asking them to make quality games, doing at least everything that Sony did during the PS/PS2 era plus more. Right now it's boneheaded mentalities like "we don't want to see PS3 fail, but we don't want to see them overwhelmingly succeed" (c.f. Square Enix) that's really screwing us over.

Yes, Wii's been selling very well lately. But people are still saying things about it that they didn't say when the PS, PS2, or XBox were released. Nintendo has an uphill climb in terms of perception and reception, and it may very well be a bit longer before third parties grudgingly agree that the Wii is not an evanescent trend.

448
Nintendo Gaming / RE: Was anyone else disappointed by E3 this year?
« on: July 17, 2007, 03:11:08 PM »
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Their market expansion IS changing their audience. Their demographic is changing. Therefore their audience is changing. They're not doing one without the other.


Their audience makeup is changing because they're not capable of luring the XBox crowd away with little more than an innovative controller and Nintendo first parties. To improve Wii sales over their abysmal last-gen performance, they have to look beyond their core Nintendo hardcore audience. They can either go for the 'other gamers' or the 'nongamers'. Guess which one they chose.

This isn't a matter of 'there are 100 million people in the US wanting to play Nintendo games the same way they've been played since N64, but who haven't gotten around to buying a Nintendo unit yet'. This is a matter of 'the core audience of people willing to play games the old way is not going to be growing much more in the future, and Nintendo can't really expand its market base within that core audience'.

I think people have the impression that the fun casual games and the wide audience is a nice, but ultimately non-essential accessory to a console whose 'core assets' should be its conventional games. I wish it could be that way, but it really can't. If Wii had been an XBox 360/PS3-esque machine with oodles of power, what would have changed? The Cube was plenty powerful during its era, and it still sold pretty badly. What would have changed Nintendo's fortunes this time around? Even more power? Even better core games? It's not like GameCube lacked 'good games' and that's why people didn't buy it. Sony and Microsoft did a really good job implicitly branding Nintendo as 'age-challenged-people-friendly' (sorry, banned word), and it would have been a waste of time to fight that label. Would a console filled with Manhunt 2-esque games be the end-all of hardcore gaming? Probably not.

Sega lagged the market and eventually fell out of the console business altogether. Nintendo lagged the market and is roaring back after more than a decade of being the underdog. How many times has that happened in the history of business?

I know the casual games are bleh, and that there's a dearth of information, but they are at the very least a necessary evil, building the install base that Nintendo needs if it wants to do anything grand with the console market at all in the future.

449
Nintendo Gaming / RE: Was anyone else disappointed by E3 this year?
« on: July 17, 2007, 01:59:57 PM »
Oh, and before I get flamed by all the real gamers here, I just wanted to make a couple more comments.

* I am 100% in favor of Nintendo making 'real' games for the Wii and innovating. I just think it's kind of disingenuous to say that Nintendo is coldheartedly and wantonly abandoning its loyal 'hardcore' market like a mean, heartless man drop-kicking an adorable puppy out the door into a raging blizzard.

In the long term, they cannot survive by appeasing only the non-gamer market, and they know that. They can't abandon their roots. But they really couldn't have laid the foundation for the long term without looking for 'new customers' in the short term beyond the traditional gamer.

* Nintendo is not suddenly abandoning traditional game development in order to pursue non-gaming projects. Almost all of the E3 or 'non-game' announcements we've seen recently have been the fruition of plans that have openly existed since before the Wii was released- like Wii Fitness, or the sequel to Brain Age, or the Zapper, or whatever. We still haven't heard anything about Wii Music yet. Now, if it took this long to crystallize plans that have probably existed since the first versions of the Wii hardware were created (as proof-of-concept projects demonstrating the viability of the Wii concept, they would have taken first priority), it will probably be a while before their plans for 'true, innovative games' (which probably got second priority) are fully revealed.

* While it's definitely true that some 3rd parties are intentionally shafting the Wii (erhm....SQUARE ENIX...erhm), it bears note that these companies have not had that much time to retool their development teams to work on serious games for the console. I know people are cynical, but I think EA is giving it a decent shot. I mean, they're bringing their biggest franchises with controls that took at least a bit of thought, and they haven't been known for giant, immersive, cinematic epics so we can forgive them for not having those sort of games on Wii.    

450
I'm a big fan of how the description reads "'Comedian' Jamie Kennedy takes the stage and promptly sets out to make babies cry." How apt.

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