Messages

201

General Gaming / Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'

« on: December 18, 2009, 06:07:08 PM »

Well, I like your post Drew.  It's respectful and tactful, and doesn't involve insults or failed attempts at snarky sarcasm.  Quite a rarity, even here.

I disagree, however, because the games media last generation wasn't so averse to writing about the business side.  I particularly remember IGN posting stories about that one quarter in 2003 where Nintendo posted a small loss and that was seen a huge news.  And that's where all the "Nintendo is going third party" crap came from.  They grilled Nintendo executives about release schedules and business strategies, and I thought it was odd because they didn't do this for Sony and MS.  They had reasonable cover because the GC was a bit of a failure (though it sold the same as the Xbox and actually made money), but now simply reporting the business side would read like a pro-Nintendo article.  So they don't anymore.

And while this

Just because Nintendo has managed to outsell the competition does not automatically give them the better product, it merely gives them the more popular product.

can be true, you wouldn't have known it last generation.  IGN and other such gleefully boasted the PS2's sales success in most articles, even ones about Nintendo.  The sudden lack of interest in market position from last generation to this one is pretty stark.

And I also disagree with your somewhat fatalistic attitude that "it's cyclical."  Companies don't switch positions just because it is "pre-ordained" so to speak.  For one that strips responsibility of the companies for any flaws they have making these crappy editorials even more pointless, and for two it's easily refuted by Nintendo's handheld successes, in which they've been Top Dog forever.

And KDR's right, too.  For some reaosn Nintendo's always "doomed" even when they are making record profits while the others are fine even when one has lost so much money as to undo the work of a whole decade of dominance.   It's this kind of contempt for readers' intelligences that causes such massive drop-offs in viewership.  Even the "casuals" can read and google things.

202

General Gaming / Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'

« on: December 18, 2009, 10:57:01 AM »

Maybe so, perhaps I should have said "editorial coverage."  I'm not gonna knock the review writers and preview writers, I man heck I used to do some of that.  And it's hard work.  Which is a shame because the editorial side of it really kills any credibility and the hard work those guys do.  Would anybody take your review or preview seriously when your boss just called most of your readers fools and idiots?

But part of games journalism is to follow the business side at least as much as the editorial and preview parts.  And unfortunately this is where the big websites have been boning it pretty hard.  Analysts can become fanboys in a heartbeat when proven wrong, just ask that Michael Pachter fella.  There is no intellectual curiosity as to how or why Nintendo succeeded.  They just repeat themselves and change the dates, hoping this time it'll be true.  It's just not good form or even good business.  Who wants to hear an analyst or an editorial guy who got it wrong and won't even own up to it, and instead blame others?  But maybe business discussion and its ramifications have no place in this generation, as evidenced by a plethora of decisions being made without thinking of opportunity or even basic business sense?  Which is fine, I guess, but that doesn't mean the business side doesn't exist anymore and won't have major ramifications for the future. 

For instance, did you know that Sony's Game Division has lost almost all of the money that they have ever made since 1996?  You may think "who cares" but a cash-strapped Sony isn't going to be very competitive on the qualities people have been expecting from them.  Heck they may even have to leave the console market and YES, that is possible, as they have less money now than when Sega called it quits in 2001.  This isn't fanboy partisanship.  This is just numbers.

This is stuff they should at least have somebody covering instead of sneering at and denouncing profitable companies.  I mean think about it.  Not only is Nintendo insanely profitable, but even without the insane part, they're the only one of the Big Three to even pull down a profit this entire generation, while the other two have lost billions, sending one almost back to square one.  Even if you like the current state of the industry, that's just not a healthy prognosis.

203

General Gaming / Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'

« on: December 18, 2009, 09:11:18 AM »

Jack Loftus write for infendo.com and often posts Malstrom articles and refers to Malstrom in his posts.  He's known, by those who read him to... well, basically to follow the exactly same industry philosophies of Malstrom and from what I can tell you and KDR. 

Not my cup of tea, but man am I tired of this old debate.

Well that's nice about Jack.  Doesn't seem that important though, definitely not one to obsess over and use as an example.  Seems kinda like a small fry, don't know why he'd be in anybody's rolodex.

And Me?  Follow Malstrom?  Nah.  Interesting fellow though.  Has a batter track record than IGN and Pachter.  Drives certain people batty.  But no, despite the books he cites (he didn't invent Blue Ocean Strategy or Technological Disruption or Upstreaming), he's sometimes a curmudgeon drunk on nostalgia, and that's his prerogative.  Simply understanding what he says and cites doesn't make one an acolyte.  I understand Karl Marx pretty well, but that doesn't make me a Marxist. (Completely anyway.)

What's embarrassing for IGN, though, is that he's done a better job covering Nintendo than they have, and he posts infrequently and has no press connections.  And IGN, with their "lots of cash" and "industry connections" can't do anything more than forecast doom and crack "casual" jokes.  THAT gets old, especially when they mock people who mail in asking why they haven't done their jobs.  Why put up with that when you can get trolled on a blog for free?  (Heck I don't even need to leave this forum.)

Of course I'd get tired of argument too if it sometimes didn't get really funny.  Also, I like applying myself and keeping the little grey cells sharp, dig?  Gotta keep that critical mind functional.  And, finally, I don't think things can be explained in little snarky soundbites all the time.  No need for casualizing forum posts, right?

204

General Gaming / Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'

« on: December 18, 2009, 12:15:49 AM »

Apparently not.  That's quite a lot of site traffic they've lost since 2008.  Maybe they do have an agenda to troll the Wii in exchange for Site hits.  What's funny is I don't think it worked.  Again, any publicity is not always good publicity.

If you read the comments on the Wii is lazy article, clearly the vast majority say somthing like " right on, I've got a Wii too and I couldn't agree more.".

Participant bias.  You don't know if that's all they people that read or listened to it.  Considering their site didn't get any worthwhile bump, I can imagine anybody disgusted with it would leave, make no post,  and never come back.  If you take a consumer behavior class, they'd teach you the those are the most dangerous consumers, because they'll leave without telling you why, leaving you with a smaller group of nothing but praising sycophants which will give the impression of doing a good job when in reality you've just sealed yourself inside a posh coffin.

A posh coffin that's made them a lot of cash the last decade.  But I guess that their days are short lived since most gamers will now probably go to Malstrom and Jack Loftus for non pathetic articles.  Guess I'm screwed.

Is this supposed to mean anything?  Isn't money "not everything" and not an indicator of quality?  Isn't a main indicator of "brainwashed" Nintendo fanboys that they talk about "profit" instead of game quality?  Who's "brainwashed" now?

Ironically, IGN has disdain for Nintendo making money.  So why should anybody care if IGN does when they meltdown and troll everybody?  Why should that excuse their elitist insulting behavior when it doesn't even excuse Nintendo making New Super Mario Bros?

And LOL "a lot of cash."  Plz 2 B researching before posting.  Being a subsidiary of NewsCorp is not "a lot of cash."  They got bought out because they sold out.  But I guess selling out isn't so bad when you're not Nintendo, eh, even if Nintendo's only called that for making games those other sell-outs don't like.

EDIT: Who is this Jack Loftus guy?  The whole point in creating a strawman is that you take a familiar, yet unpopular person or label and use that as the easily reviled strawman in place of the position.  But who is this guy?  Is he some random blogger?  Why is he mentioned in the same breath as IGN as an antipodes?  Do they have the same style of caustic editorial?  Is this why IGN lost half its readers from 2008 to 2009, because they act like fanboy bloggers?  Lots of questions.

205

General Gaming / Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'

« on: December 17, 2009, 05:02:29 PM »

So are they really trolling?  Not really. Just delivering the content their audience wants.

Apparently not.  That's quite a lot of site traffic they've lost since 2008.  Maybe they do have an agenda to troll the Wii in exchange for Site hits.  What's funny is I don't think it worked.  Again, any publicity is not always good publicity.

If you read the comments on the Wii is lazy article, clearly the vast majority say somthing like " right on, I've got a Wii too and I couldn't agree more.".

Participant bias.  You don't know if that's all they people that read or listened to it.  Considering their site didn't get any worthwhile bump, I can imagine anybody disgusted with it would leave, make no post,  and never come back.  If you take a consumer behavior class, they'd teach you the those are the most dangerous consumers, because they'll leave without telling you why, leaving you with a smaller group of nothing but praising sycophants which will give the impression of doing a good job when in reality you've just sealed yourself inside a posh coffin.

206

General Gaming / Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'

« on: December 17, 2009, 01:03:01 AM »

Alright I'll end my speil with this, because, unfortunately, I agree in Kashogi, in that I get tired of arguing with people who just want to argue and be anti-fans and all that.

And they don't say that so much anymore because the DS got its **** together.

Or, more likely, they couldn't sling that stuff around anymore without getting a reader revolt.  And when did the DS "get its **** together?"  Did it magically become more powerful than the PSP?  Did the DS suddenly begin to have social network services and digital distribution?  These were things they complained about before.  Why don't they now?  Because they'd get swarmed with angry emails and lose even more readers, that's why.

No it's a fact.  Nintendo themselves have stated they've gone after a new audience with the Wii.  They talked about non-gamers and the blue ocean group and all that.  Maybe you just don't like me saying "casual"?  Fine, use whatever term you want.  The FACT is Nintendo is targetting a different group with the Wii.  I didn't say they're ONLY targetting that group.  THAT is opinion.  But them targetting this new group is a fact.

Didn't you want them to target more mainstream consumers and not just Nintendo fans a couple of years ago?  And now you're bitching them out for doing it?  I just hope IGN stays consistent and Calls out Sony and MS for "selling out" to these same people because that's who they're aiming at now with their Natals and Sony Wands.

Yeah and I feel Nintendo has been criticized since the N64 justifiably.  Your argument assumes that Nintendo changing is automatically a good thing

No my argument is that, accepting that Nintendo has changed completely from a Nintendo fanservicing company to one more in tune with customers at large, they were bitched at the entire way, sometimes for completely contradictory reasons, like being behind in the marketplace and then being ahead in the marketplace and "not deserving it."  For not innovating enough and then for innovating too much.  And my favorite, for being failures and then being successes.

You give a justification for Nintendo releasing lesser hardware.  That's a sound justification but people are going to dislike it and Nintendo fans have to understand that.

I don't seem to remember IGN's Sony channel having lengthy podcasts about the power of the PS2 and calling their owners "brainwashed."  Or owners of the PS2 having to "justify" releasing hardware that was appreciably weaker then the Dreamcast.  What did Sony intentionally release weak hardware and profit off of it?  Those FIENDS.

This is what is frustrating - the assumption that Nintendo will be bitched about no matter what. Does that not promote the idea of brainwashed Nintendo fanboys?

It's doubly aggravating when you have to read tired editorials with the same crticisms them for years.  And again, like you said, IGN is to blame for this, because they wasted their credibility whining about "kart skins" "casuals" "Kiddy" and "Next Virtual Boy" that most people don't pay much attention to them anymore, no matter what they say, valid or not.  And it's interesting you should say "promote the idea" of brainwashed Nintendo fanboys.  Who is doing the brainwashing?  Nintendo by having quasi-unpopular stances based on the idea that they don't want to lose billions of dollars to be popular on select internet forums, or IGN wasting thier time with kart skins and calling their readers "brainwashed" for disagreeing with them?  The "brainwashing" may not even be Nintendo's doing, see.

Alright, that's all...

Oh dear God, IGN did it again in the meantime, didn't they?  Great.  I'll probably not comment on this, except to say that, on the topic of M-rated games on Nintendo consoles, a lot of hay was made when GTA: Chinatown Wars on the DS "flopped" according to Pachter and the rest of the games media, and they spouted similar lines about "mature" games and Nintendo.  Flashforward to a PSP port of the game, and it tanked, like really badly.  Selling like 14-19k for its entire month of release.  So far the DS version has outsold it by 20 times.  Somehow GTA: Chinatown Wars is no longer an important title to discuss, eh?

And "M-rated" debates are as tired as the hills and even today they mean little as apparently most adults buy E-rated games, so it says nothing about userbase anymore.  *yawn*  This isn't even a new trolling method.

207

General Gaming / Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'

« on: December 16, 2009, 05:51:23 PM »

I dunno vudu, it's seems pretty civil.  Is robust, yet civil argument not allowed on NWR now?  Must all of our posts be bite-sized snark/troll attempts so nobody has a rational thought again?

208

General Gaming / Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'

« on: December 16, 2009, 05:18:50 PM »

Regarding brainwashed Nintendo fans, every fanbase has the die-hards that never EVER see any wrong in the object of their fandom.  With Nintendo these are the fans that defend absolutely everything, love every product, and recite whatever the company line is at the present moment.  These are the fans whose opinion flip-flops if Nintendo's attitude towards something changes.  If you're a rational person and your opinion is along the same line as these people (you just arrived at that opinion in a different way) then they're fine.  But if you don't agree with them they're insufferable.

I think the real problem isn't that said fanboys could exist, Ian.  It's that they are used as strawmen for any kind of dissent with IGN's opinion.  And furthermore I rarely hear about IGN's PS3 department melting down when Sony does something stupid (like Home or PSPGo) and they call out a bunch of fanboys on their podcasts.  It seems like these extreme Nintendo fanboys are the only ones that exist sometimes.  And this is deliberately intentional, because they are in the severe minority both marketwise and even internet wise, which is why this podcast of theirs backfired and got everybody talking... about how much they suck and how predictable it is.  Any publicity =\= Good publicity.

While IGN casting all Nintendo fans as being this kind of irrational fanatic is unfair I can see why one would make this assumption.  Right now Nintendo is at it's most controversial.  Yes they're making lots of money but there has never been such polarizing views regarding them.  Even in Nintendo's own fanbase there are split opinions.

LOL "Controversial?"  They just got off making a 2D Mario Platformer on the Console, Ian.  You find that "controversial?"  Didn't you want that?  Making money is "controversial?"  So the criticism here is "some people disagree with them?"  The only thing really "controversial" I see is that Nintendo was a huge success when all the press and third parties bet against them.

Here are hard facts

Oh boy a list.

- Nintendo decided to target a more casual market this generation than they had in the past.

Ugh you bone it on the first one.  This isn't a "fact," this is an opinion.  And much like when they said Nintendo was targeting "casuals and Girls" with the DS, it's not even that true as an opinion.

- The Wii hardware is significantly inferior to the other consoles.  Nintendo has publicly admitted they did this on purpose and that part of this was to make a profit off of the hardware sold.

Yes they do want to make a profit.  Such things are not unheard of in videogames (maybe this generation it is.)  So the problem is... Nintendo designs their product to bring in a little profit?  They even do this with the DS, Ian!  They even did it with the superior GC, and they were railed for not having online in every game (Yet Sony got away with no centralized online AND inferior graphics last time).

- Nintendo has ported several Gamecube games to the Wii with motion controls.  These games were released during a time that no new Wii product was being released from Nintendo.

This is true, but of course they were released during a time no new Wii product was being "released."  They aren't tech wizards able to fabricate games in days.

- The majority of third party games announced for the PS3 and Xbox 360 are never released for the Wii.

Whose fault is this?  Is it even possible it could be their fault and not Nintendo's?  Don't blame the victim.  It isn't classy.

- After stating publicly that they hoped the Wii remote would be the "new controller standard" Nintendo released an add-on to their controller that improves it's functionality.

Aww that is weak, Ian.  Come ON.  There are always going to be controller improvements,  You could say this about ANYTHING.  "Sony SAYS that they were setting a 'new standard of graphics' with the PS2.  But those fiends UPGRADED the graphics on the PS3.  Where to now, Sony?  Hmm?  Off to hypocrite-ville on the the Greek island of Hypocrete?!  And Microsoft... I thought Xbox Live was supposed to be the 'robust, perfect online experience.'  What's with adding achievement point to everything?  Fiends!  Fiends I say!"

All of that stuff is true.  All of those could be used to support rational and logical criticism of the Wii and/or Nintendo themselves.  And yet it's pretty common to have people try to defend every single one of them.

Yeah Ian, it's called debate.  Nobody has to just swallow IGN's or your vision of things, nor must everybody internalize the standards of either.  If anything, I've found even having reasons to merely impartially "explain" from a financial or strategic standpoint any of those would place me with the fanboys, somehow.  And somehow making profit is one of those "hard facts" that "fanboys must accept."  That's lunacy.  Of course they're making money.  They have several successful products and games.  Dur.

I think the problem is Nintendo has put themselves in such a situation where there is too much criticism

It takes two to tango Ian.  Nintendo's been heavily criticized since the N64 for God's sake.  Do a controlled experiment.  You claim that Nintendo has heavily changed.  Let's accept that they have.  Did the Criticize the DS?  Yes.  Did IGN criticize the GC?  Yes.  Did they criticize the N64?  Yes, very much so.  So if Nintendo actually HAS changed, then IGN will heavily criticize Nintendo no matter what, because that's the only constant.

It's almost like Nintendo's not the problem, isn't it?  And this again, forces one to accept that simply the act of criticizing is based on valid assumptions.  If it didn't seem like IGN and most of the press in general had an ax to grind, you might have a point, but some of their criticisms are just as unfounded if not more so than any fanboy ramblings (and they get PAID, too.)

So when you criticize Nintendo now you get more doublethink "Nintendo is always right" crap.

Once again, your criticism is not guaranteed to be swallowed.  It will have to stand up to scrutiny and a "sniff test," so to speak.  And you even said it yourself, IGN's mostly to blame because they were criticizing Nintendo left and right forever, for all sorts of stupid ****.  Even if they did have valid criticisms, they've ruined their own editorial reputations with "Kart skins" and doom and gloom soothsaying that nobody will take THEM seriously.  Even when they say something indefensible like "you're all brainwashed." 

So the only people left to agree with them are the deranged IGN fanboys because normal people don't like the insinuation that they are brainwashed.  And it makes it hard to debate them because they'll be screaming that "IGN is right" or his concern-trolling cousin "they have a point" and nobody actually wants to see if IGN actually was correct in calling their dissenters "brainwashed."

The less reasons you give people to criticize you the easier it is to defend you so you attract more rational people to your side.  The crazies also don't expose themselves as such as much because they too can defend you in a rational way without having to resort to huge leaps of logic to support their view.

The problem is you haven't set why anybody should accept your terms and facts (including the LOL "controller standard one") as a given.  And since nobody will debate any of these without resorting to "fanboy" (the video game forum equivalent of Godwin's law), anybody with a logical opinion in defense or merely an explanatory role will get shouted down for "supporting the controversial Nintendo."

Remember, they tried the SAME THING with the DS.  They tried to bury it under "minigame" "casual" "for girls" "no third parties" and labeled anybody who had one or liked its games a "Nintendo fanboy" and look where that got them.

209

General Gaming / Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'

« on: December 16, 2009, 08:44:26 AM »

I also don't believe I ever cited that Nintendo fans "hated" online, so much as they seem to assume that because Nintendo doesn't pursue it that it doesn't matter.

I don't believe I said you did.  But they were attributed the notion that they "hated" online when most of them felt like you do about online gameplay, in that it didn't matter to them.  But lo and behold, that idea of "being ambivalent towards online" meant they must have hated it.

I think Nintendo introducing motion controls before they had a controller that could actually do them right (via Wii Motion +) was a bad thing.  And actually, I believe I noted that while I agree with IGN's overall premise, I think they're going about it the wrong way because insulting your audience does not make for rational discussion.

They're not wizards, broodwars.  And besides this would be similar to saying it was bad for Sony and MS to make games all HD before most game companies could affordably offer them without jacking prices up.  You're basically complaining about something NOW when it can't be fixed without a time machine.  You're damning them for not having access to technology from the future in the past.  Why don't you go back to 1985 and tell Nintendo to not even bother with 2-D displays when if they wait 10 years, the technology will be available to make 3-D games?

That does not mean that DLC is bad by its very nature, though, and has no place on a Nintendo system.

Well no it's not bad in theory, but in the real world its basically used to squeeze out more dollars from people who've already bought the game.  And who knows if this wasn't really the intention in the first place, merely disguised as a way to "add content" to a game.  It seems like the bell can't be unringed though, so I question if DLC was actually a good innovation since they haven't yet staffed game companies with perfect people and not capitalists.  And strangely, as profit-obsessed as Nintendo is made out to be, they haven't done much of this money-grubbing via DLC.  That's odd, you'd think that'd be the first thing they would have thought of.

210

General Gaming / Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'

« on: December 16, 2009, 02:26:04 AM »

They call them brainwashed for many reasons. Here's a few.

The fanboys shout they would rather play SD games on an HD TV. Which does look fugly.

They declare imputing 100's of friend codes is awesome.

And the thought "we don't need Wii demos, those are pointless."

And nowhere in the podcast do they say any of this.  Generic hatred of fanboys not present in the discussion is yawn-worthy.  Strawmen to not construct arguments in and of themselves.  Epic fail.  Next.

Indeed, I think what IGN's getting at is aspect of the Nintendo fanbase: "because Nintendo chooses not to do something that everyone else does, not only does this mean that that feature wasn't important in the first place but those that enjoy that feature are stupid.  The inverse is also true when Nintendo does something convoluted (like Friend Codes) that no one else does."

So when Nintendo does things that nobody else wants to, like invent motion controls... that's bad?  Would the game industry even have HAD control innovation this generation without Nintendo basically introducing the touch screen and Motion controllers to games?  I mean this is stuff they did and nobody else did.  And meanwhile, how do the IGN guys NOT exhibit what you just said?  They're basically saying anybody who has a Wii and enjoys motion controls over achievement points is stupid, trying to say it isn't important and they've "ceded the market." (LOL!)

While this is by no means an exclusive trait of Nintendo fans (the other platforms have their share of die-hard supporters), I have certainly seen instances of this on these very boards.  "The people who buy the Wii by the boatload don't care about HD, therefore HD obviously sucks!"

Perhaps they get attributed this idea because they simply say HD visuals are not worth the asking price of expensive consoles and +$10 game prices, and would rather they drop in price before swallowing the whole idea of "HD RULEZ!  WII SUX AND IZ FOR BABIEZ"  (Strawmen are easy to create.)

"We obviously don't need a dedicated online system, because look at all the games over history that haven't used one!"  And so on.

Oh what's really going to twist your noodle is that the #1 online-enabled game of all time is Mario Kart Wii.  Doesn't speak a lot for $50-a-year online fees when they can't even score the #1 game with online features.  I remember last generation Nintendo fans were saddled with an apparent hatred of online (strangely, Sony fans and the majority of gamers were not said to "hate" online.  Hmm... I'm noticing a trend here.)  Now it's apparently "Centralized, dedicated, monthly-subscription online services" which not even PC and PS3 owners have to put up with.

To me, such things are silly.  Sure, you can make a great game without the various bells & whistles and there are some recent advances that have been abused (like DLC), but you can make an even better game with them.  I think that's the argument that so many die-hard Nintendo supporters don't understand, and that's why IGN calls them "brainwashed."

DLC "abuse" isn't the half of it.  In most cases, we're getting RIPPED OFF.  The game's already $10 more expensive.  Now they are nickel-and-dimeing gamers with this crap?  One could make an argument that those not outraged or deeply concerned to say the least would be "brainwashed."  This was a good advancement?  Making games more expensive in a piecemeal fashion?  Just so game companies could sell extra content to less people than would buy a new game?  Great.  The problem with your assertion is that just mentioning the potential problems with these advancements, that achievements are useless, pointless, and lead to the de-linking of in-game achievements to non-DLC reward content makes us dichotomously opposed to any forms of advancement.

This is an attempt to label Nintendo fans again.  Kiddy didn't work with DS and Wii.  Casual isn't working either (partially because all those casual games keep flopping.)  Now it's back to "fanboy."  60-something million of them.  All brainwashed into hating achievement points being linked to an online profile.  That makes perfect sense.

Edit: and Pro wins the thread again.  Got a good head on his shoulders, that one.

211

General Gaming / Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'

« on: December 16, 2009, 01:06:33 AM »

Actualy, Greg Miller, one of the PS3 guys on the podcast LOVES New Super Mario Bros.  He went to Gamestop 4 times before they finally had the copy that he pre-ordered.

While this is all well and good, what does this have to do with the price of nutmeg, where the price of nutmeg is IGN calling Nintendo fans "brainwashed" and "stupid?"  And how does this refute Guitar Smasher's point of them being childish?

In the big pictures, achievements are a on going game.  Are they worthless?  Sure.  But so are all games.  They're not going to make you a better man.  But both are fun and that's why the vast majority of gamers like them.  Even stay at home moms in Indiana get into them.

The plural of anecdote is not data, and the singular isn't datum.  While it is nice that kotaku scoured the globe to find one homemaker somewhere who extols the majesty of gamerscore e-peens doesn't mean the consensus is that they are worthwhile additions, on par with motion controls or touch screens, which have converted into real phenomena.  Particularly when the innovation is just taking things that had existed in games for decades (challenges, unlockable rewards or otherwise) and linking it to a subscription social network.

I guess the point is, what does all this have to do with IGN's podcast calling Nintendo fans "brainwashed" because they may not see that achievement gamerscore points are as big an innovation as controlling videogames with motion?  Quick, name a scifi movie where the futuristic computers are all controlled with little pop-up windows that said "you did it!" when the techs access data.  Can't?  How about one where they are touching holograms or grabbing things on the screen and tossing them around or where they are touching the screen?

Furthermore, said "achievements" already exist and have existed for a long time.  They just don't link to social network profiles.  When seen in that light, it's really hard to see the comparison with engineering a new way to control videogames, or even putting them in the same league.

212

General Gaming / Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'

« on: December 15, 2009, 10:06:03 PM »

Yeah yeah blah blah Hoak Hogan Destrucity Blah.

But he does offer critiques of the Wii without insulting everybody.  And you find them wanting because you want articles that "take Nintendo down a notch," even though Nintendo's basically been piled upon for about 5 years straight for any topic under the sun.  Which is, suffice to say, pretty boring when another one gets made because Nintendo neglected kart skins or something.

I mean it's getting really predictable.  And when IGN gets predictable in their Wii trolling, they lose the site hits they want, because even though they are being little whiny bitches, it's so old hat that nobody cares.

213

General Gaming / Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'

« on: December 15, 2009, 09:23:11 PM »

But, I am obviously the minority in that group.  It seems any article the critiques the Wii ends up in this thread and is immediately declared a troll.  Obviously, no system is perfect, so can anyone here point me to an article that strongly critiques the Wii in a non "pathetic" manner?

Sometimes being the minority means you are wrong, like the Flat Earthers or the gold-bug people.

Amazingly, there are several on your most hated enemy's website, that of Sean Malstrom.  He critiques the Wii quite a bit (also please note, "critique" does not mean "Nintendo fans are brainwashed."  That's ad homenim, and I think we've discussed this before.)  But they may not be the grist for that "Wii is for babiez and casualz and fanbois" addiction you're looking for.

it would be nice if Nintendo swallowed their pride like Sony did andoffered an achievement system for those that like it (if you don't likethem, change the settings on your system).

We are talking about the $600 PS3 and Increased-price, less-functionality, ownership-eliminating PSPGo Sony, right?  Sony's not necessarily "swallowing their pride" as much as you would like others to think.  But buying that perception from their fans isn't cheap.  It's basically cost them almost all the money they've ever made in video games.

Hell Sega had more money when they left than Sony's game division does now.

214

General Gaming / Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'

« on: December 15, 2009, 06:31:04 PM »

Extra content?  Lol. It was just locked.  Games with DLC aren't getting smaller.

Yes, it is extra content.  Content not available on start-up.  Unlocking via "achievement" is a lot better than unlocking via paying somebody.  Now you're gonna reply that some games do actually have DLC as in Content that is downloaded as opposed to just paying for "keys" to unlock content already on the disc.  But can the average layman or even experienced gamer even tell the difference?  How can one tell if one isn't simply paying for something already on the disc?

And as for games getting smaller, some are.  Like moving alternate colors for Street Fighter IV to the DLC to buy.  The privilege once received by pressing R on the SNES controller during fighter select is now on a fee-based system.  That's madness.  Furthermore, game length or "largeness" is pretty subjective, and if we are going by just "game length by hours" Pokemon is probably the largest game of all time, because gamers have poured more time into that game than any other.

But again, I digress, as I have already put too much thought into this without mutual reciprocity.

How many years have we been playing Burnout Paradise now??

Uhm, Zero?  Way less than Mario Kart Wii?  Mario Kart DS?

Are you trying to become a parody of yourself or something?  That game bombed and DLC didn't save it.  Made something like the majority of its sales after it sank to $20 (despite still charging $60 for a digital version at first.  Go Digital Distribution!) and after it got bundled to death.

EDIT:

It doesn't help that in the past most of them seemed strongly biasedagainst Nintendo for superficial reasons and now that they have alegitimate gripe they look like jackasses for crying wolf.

This little snippet of Ian's post is ironic on so many levels and IGN should feel so damaged that Ian has said it about them that they should hang their heads in shame.  I thought a new, good, popular 2D Mario on consoles would lighten the mood, but nope, still sell-outs, eh?

215

General Gaming / Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'

« on: December 15, 2009, 04:07:56 PM »

So achievements are pointless but SSBM rules for including them first?  Strange.

I don't even want to know how you came up with this, but you obviously didn't read it so I'm just thinking you're trying to troll me.  As such, I will not participate.

Special note for non-trolls: Anybody who passed elementary school could have clearly read that I stated that SSBM's "achievement system" actually unlocked extra game content and modern achievement systems just flash a badge or give you worthless points for an already worthless online profile.  Plus de choses en jeux, ce sont mieux que des badges.

216

General Gaming / Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'

« on: December 15, 2009, 03:13:46 PM »

Maybe if the Wii had achievements he'd be a bit more motivated to actually play it.

But it does have achievements.  Even IGN admits this but they qualify it with "But they don't go beyond the game."  I thought achievements WERE those little flash up boy scout badges.  Apparently it's the linking to a social network site or some online profile that matters, even though most gamers, in general, don't care about achievements, as evidenced by the continued dominance and high sales of games without them.  But even so, Wii has achievements...  and so did the GC for that matter. (SSBM)  And they actually... unlocked something instead of a little logo, and some worthless points on Facebook or something.  Extra content > Boy Scout Badge.

How dare IGN to have such a frank opinion!  Last time I visit their site.

So is anybody else allowed to have frank opinions about IGN?  They haven't been relevant since they chose the PSP.  Ever since then there's been this strange feeling like they have an ax to grind for being wrong and they didn't want to man up and blame themselves for having the wrong analysis.  They'd rather blame the geek who got 98 on his test because it assuages their own responsibility.  And besides, they did this kind of "doom and gloom" podcast crap before about the DS in 2005.  I sure they thought it would be relevant later at the time though, which is cute.

I just find it curious the Malstrom spends so much time reading, watching, listening, and blogging about the "trolls" he says are worthless. Where does he find the time to do all that? It probably doesn't  leave much time to actually play with his Wii.

So what was IGN bored too when they decided to make this ill-conceived troll of the Wii and its owners? ("Brainwashed?")  Standards, you have double the normal amount.

As far as achievements and the Wii in regards to Malstrom goes I feel I can't speak on his behalf. Go send him an e-mail D_Average.

I know apparently its bad for Malstrom to waste him time talking about IGN, or for IGN to troll the Wii, but he can take on "Forum Guy" for free!  Maybe he has triple the normal amount.

217

General Gaming / Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'

« on: December 15, 2009, 05:32:36 AM »

Am I the only one that laughed at this??

I'm laughing that IGN thinks it can expand it's readership by throwing the majority of gamers under the bus and calling them "brainwashed."

218

General Gaming / Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'

« on: December 15, 2009, 02:26:49 AM »

Well then I'm sure Nintendo will just stick with what works in SSBB (and SSBM, mind you) and MP3 as well, mostly on a game by game basis.  No need to create a large database just to house such data.

And I consider achievements and the movement of secret content from behind the "achievement," per se, and to the marketplace linked, as one went up with the other.  They aren't isolated instances.

219

General Gaming / Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'

« on: December 15, 2009, 02:04:09 AM »

An achievement system costs very little to maintain once created and implemented, is relatively easy to program, and it only adds value to your products

They do have achievement systems, like SSBB and SSBM and Wii Sports Resort.  I'm already ON the internet.  I can upload a video to youtube if I feel like showing off, or take a picture.   And what is your evidence that they would "cost little to maintain?"

220

General Gaming / Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'

« on: December 15, 2009, 01:27:28 AM »

I remember when doing cool things in a game used to unlock cool stuff like alternate costumes, extra levels, secret weapons, and extra characters.  Now all that stuff is for sale as Cash Money DLC and we've replaced the rewards for being a good gamer with boy scout badges.  Am I to believe that receiving a digital gold star is as big an innovation, if not bigger than motion controls, especially when it's at the expense of unlockables that have been relegated to the marketplace? (gag)

Hell Smash Bros. Melee had trophies and stuff unlock when you walked 40,000 feet or something.  This isn't new, at all.  The only thing new is linking it to your facebook or something.

But I digress.  IGN Trolling Wii owners?  What else is new?  Also weird profit-hate.  It's like they can't stand that Nintendo's profitable and not slashing their own wrists for... some reason.  Maybe they could go into the red for Wii owners a bit and stand up for more quality games from third parties, thus risking their lucrative third party review incentives.  I wonder what their response would be if somebody asked them.

221

General Gaming / Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'

« on: December 13, 2009, 01:35:24 AM »

Ok, congratulations on completely missing the point.  The point was that the 3rd parties are starting to put quality games on Wii, more than most people on these forums give them credit for.

But they aren't what they could be, right?  They didn't go "all-out," right?  Isn't THAT the point?  Or is it one set of standards for Nintendo and another set for everybody else?

A Boy & His Blob is an outstanding and inventive game (and, incidentally, yes I do think it looks better graphically than NSMBW), and that was why I brought it up.

If NSMBWii was 2D sprites, I would have thought Nintendo phoned it in.  And there's no way IGN would have thought Sprite Mario would have been anything else either.

As for Dead Space Extraction, for all the flak we gave EA for not making that game what we wanted, from all reports it is a great rail shooter with a particularly good emphasis on narrative that expands the Dead Space universe beyond the first game.  That doesn't seem like the dev team "phoned it in" to me.

But it's not what it could have been, right?  Instead of giving Wii owners what they wanted, they get something else and a bunch of PR to defend the move.  And since it IS a rail shooter, the genre all third parties turn to when they just don't get it about the Wii, yes, they DID phone it in.

As for Silent Hill: Shattered Memories, that you would even imply that it's somehow "phoned in" just because it has some similar elements to the first Silent Hill game is ridiculous (if you'd actually played it, you know the two games have practically nothing to do with each other outside characters and locations with the same names), and it makes use of just about every offline feature of the Wii (motion control, pointer control, the Wiimote microphone, etc.).

Well, maybe it is a good game, but I wish Konami made it first instead of Target Terror.  Maybe they'd have a better reputation and their games may not be hard sells to a skeptical userbase of their own design.

And who said anything bad about Mario Galaxy and Smash Bros.?  Even the original article points out that Nintendo has had some titles they put their full effort into.

Care to expand on this?  Apparently Nintendo is the only one to have given a full effort.  For the games like Mario Galaxy, SSBB, Smash Bros, Mario Kart (yes, Mario Kart), and even Wii Fit, Metroid Prime, Zelda: Twilight Princess, no third company even comes close to Nintendo in effort.  Yet it's Nintendo's knuckles that get rapped for a perceived "drop in effort" while other companies get free passes to make awful games and concurring nods from the press when they blame Nintendo for their crappy games' failure (like you did.)  To bitch out Nintendo for "lack of effort" is injustice of the highest order when other third parties make schlock and laugh as they do it.

222

General Gaming / Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'

« on: December 12, 2009, 07:21:46 PM »

I don't think he'd be complaining (seriously what's wrong with the graphics?).

Nothing, and this will be very important in the coming years when graphical realism cannot be expanded any more than can be appreciated by even your more discerning graphics enthusiast.  It will sound as out of place as when Matt talked about Dolby Digital.

To see this in effect, travel back 5 years when the run-up to the DS and PSP was in full swing.  Matt, and staunch PSP backers of the "DS is the next Virtual Boy" type, also listed Dolby Digital capability for the PSP as a plus.  But anybody with half a logical mind asked the question "just how in the blue hell do you use Dolby Digital for a device that's smaller than just a center speaker?  Is Sony going to sell a "surround sound" helmet?"  Sound quality started reaching it's Zenith during the PS1/N64 era.  CD or MP3 quality is basically "good enough."  Now it's about composition quality and mood-setting skills, with Dolby Digital being virtually meaningless to your average, above average, and even most discerning game customer.  Complaining about it still shows a certain "out-of-touch" attitude.

The same will be for graphical capability (at least as raw numbers would have it).  Then it well be about art design and framerate.  1080p 60fps locked is the finish line.  Any higher than that is just pissing into a black hole along with throwing money into it, or you are Pixar making a movie.    Why Sony and MS are racing towards it with Billion dollar losses only to lose that bullet point for the next console and let Nintendo benefit from your hard work for pennies on the dollar is beyond me.

223

General Gaming / Re: The smartest person on the Internet

« on: December 12, 2009, 05:28:01 PM »

His stance on Mario can be seen as correct, which is proved with sales, though 3-D Mario sells enough to sustain itself, so will not be abolished anytime soon.

Zelda on the other hand, is quite tricky.  On average, the Aonuma directed Zelda's did better than "old school" ones.  In fact, two games he claims are "sales hits and cultural phenomena" are nothing of the sort.  Zelda II Sold way less than Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass, Twilight Princess, etc.  And Link's Awakening sold even less than that.  The only game he would have a point with is Majora's Mask, a game that sold the least on the console.  But even then it's statistically within range of link's awakening, and it was a game that was effectively $90 and required hardware that was not included.

In this instance, Malstrom seems like a roll-back-the-clock nostalgia junkie instead of anything that was panned out through actual market research.  And if *ahem* "laser beams" are not a part of Zelda, then what, pray tell is this?

224

General Gaming / Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'

« on: December 12, 2009, 05:18:07 PM »

I think Pro's post basically sums up the whole argument and closes it.  People who have addressed his posts have not even begun to argue his points and mostly either try to deflect or just repeat something as if a second time will make something wrong into something right.

Basically the points are:

1. Nintendo is heavily criticized no matter what their market positions are and no matter what games they make, what their content is, or how good they are.  No explanation has been given for this yet.  (Except maybe by the threads title)

2. Nintendo is accused of being lazy when, if accepted as true, third parties have been exponentially more lazy with ports to low-budget spinoffs to sometimes absolute dreck (Like Konami and Target Terror) and Matt has never thrown his obviously important opinion to dissuade any of them from their courses of action.

To quote Pro's post:  "Why is it bad for Nintendo to have a few games that probably had "lower" budgets when 3rd parties got to squeeze out SOFT-SERVED ASS-CREAM with at best "no" comment, and at worst a scathing indictment of NINTENDO for the 3rd parties' awful games?"  We're somehow still blaming Nintendo here for some reason.  Blaming the victim is always classy.  To respond to points that Nintendo "set a low bar," well, no.  They didn't do that with their first game for the Wii, which was Twilight Princess.  3rd parties chose to ignore it an set their standards to making games that were awful copies of Wii Sports.  Nintendo offering titles that had high and low budgets forced 3rd parties to willfully choose the low budget because THEY wanted to scrimp and save money, not Nintendo.  Suffice to say, this argument has holds no water based on actual data.

3.  Nobody here has addressed a dichotomy that has been an issue for two generations, being that Nintendo is hated when they make fantastic games because it drives third parties chances down, and only recently when Nintendo has had a few games that opted not to cost $60 million that third parties (and some fans) are now clamoring for Nintendo to make higher budget and more first party games because when the market is left to the choice of picking between no new Nintendo game for a while and the majority of 3rd parties' titles at any given moment, they will choose either nothing or older Nintendo titles.  This links to #1 in that Nintendo has literally no place to stand on the budget/frequency spectrum without being yelled at by a third party or a few vocal fans.

4. Pro makes an EXCELLENT point about Wii owners scorn for third parties because they are frequently low-budget drivel.  Now that it's apparently bad to not go "all-out" on titles, does that retroactively exonerate anybody chastised for not wanting to buy third party experiments or spinoffs?  It's like getting onto your honor student for not turning in his homework fast enough when the rest of the class hasn't even shown up for weeks.  The double standard is so obvious Stevie Wonder sees it.

And now to specific quotes:

At least the 3rd party situation has improved fairly dramatically these past few months, with titles such as A Boy & His Blob; Dead Space Extraction; and Silent Hill: Shattered Memories.

So... A Boy and his Blob. a literal 2-D games that uses none of the Wii's "power" is an example of a game that Nintendo should look to, when the game they are being bitched out about, NSMBWii, is miles ahead in both graphics and design.  And somehow a remake and a Dead on Announcement spinoff are not evidence of "phoning it in?"

This article is spot on (and believe me, he rails on 3rd parties plenty, just listen to any NVC show from 2008).

Ooo~ whoopee~  He certainly showed them on a Podcast.  How about an actual article?  And "plenty" is precisely the problem.  It should be "mostly" or "almost all of the time."  Just by having a different standard for third parties than Nintendo, he is allowing them to get a pass for making games much worse than any being discussed here.

He's b##ing b/c he's a huge Nintendo fan.

About like Lieberman is a Democrat. (Politics zomg)

The real reason Matt is b###ing is simply he knows what could be and we're just not saying it.

Actually the reason is because he wants to drive site hits and see if he can gain anything by peddling influence and threatening to use his site as a bully pulpit if he doesn't get his way, so far as to break a Samus toy in defiance, but we're just not saying that.  I mean jeez, he's a full grown MARRIED man who's acting like a spoiled brat and an internet troll at large.  It seems like everybody has to deal with that kind of idiot around them these days.

225

Nintendo Gaming / Re: The OFFICIAL Wii rumor thread *bring your own salt*

« on: November 01, 2009, 04:42:13 PM »

There is absolutely no way Nintendo will ever use Blu-Ray for anything.  It simply does not make business sense to directly fund your competitor that way, especially if you are in the process of researching your own superior proprietary medium (like holographic carts or high capacity SD cards.)

That's how I know that story is bull