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Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 27, 2010, 10:28:42 PM

Title: Game Journalism
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 27, 2010, 10:28:42 PM
Is just a bunch of `Top10s` and `Games of the Year You Can Never Afford Cuz You're Not A Casual-Bashing 15-Minute Game Reviewer` multi-page lists designed to increase pageviews for ad money.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on January 27, 2010, 10:35:01 PM
Keee-ripes look at the absolute filth UBISoft published.

What's funny is that most of these titles were made under the impression that they're "what the Wii audience wants."  And almost all of them flopped hard.

And that's a lot of crap to dig through to get anything worthwhile.

And you think maybe having UBISoft's name attached to all this crap didn't do anything good for their brand name?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Caterkiller on January 27, 2010, 10:35:38 PM
Good gravy! That crap was from Ubisoft? Keep it coming!

I had no idea that stuff came from a well known developer. I always assumed Fashion Party and Party Babyz(with a z yes, because thats how the cool spell it) were from super no named no bodies who were working inside their garages.

Man i'd like to throw up right now.
 
Edit:
 People responding to this thread need to start it off with same over the top wording like me and Deguello.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Infernal Monkey on January 27, 2010, 10:39:43 PM
LOLOLOL, imagine trying to do this with all the DS bullshit they've clogged the shelves with.

That could be a whole new Imagine™ game in itslef!
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: A Straight Up Trippin' Balls Forum User on January 27, 2010, 10:52:02 PM
Astounding. There really are no other words. :moonface:

When I saw "Elimination" Games I laughed. Elimination... as in.. pooping.

Quite fitting.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 27, 2010, 11:01:17 PM
Good Googly Moogly!! I hope you didn't put that whole picture together yourself, but if you did, I'm glad you did it.

Activision is next, but I hope EA is after that. I'm not sure how many people are gonna have the stomach to handle all that, and that's before even getting to people like Namco or Konami.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: ShyGuy on January 27, 2010, 11:03:35 PM
I bought four of those games, played five total. There are probably about four other games on the list that I wouldn't mind trying.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on January 27, 2010, 11:11:46 PM
You know if UBISoft maybe only published a third of the games that they did, and spent that extra time and money focused on them, they'd probably have the best lineup on Wii.

I especially like the crass attempts at knockoffs.  "Vacation Sports?"  Really?  You think people can't tell the difference between Wii Sports Resort and "Vacation Sports?"  (Believe it or not, Activision's actually worse at this.)

And even if that came out before WSR, do you think it's a good idea to be competing against a game that comes Free with every Wii?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_insanolord on January 27, 2010, 11:18:07 PM
If I count right, that's a 6x11 grid, 66 games. Fewer than 10 of those are good, and that's counting Tenchu and No More Heroes 1&2 and assuming Red Steel 2 turns out well. UbiSoft dropping Wii support isn't so bad; they've been doing more harm than good.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: ShyGuy on January 27, 2010, 11:18:39 PM
sixty six titles, only about a tenth of them a worthy effort? I wonder how many of these Kairon has played?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Caliban on January 27, 2010, 11:24:44 PM
Bumper smackers! With this much quality games coming from Ubisoft I cannot wait for the WiiToo and be able to play them in glorious HD. Anybody want to shred their corneas in advance?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_insanolord on January 27, 2010, 11:28:10 PM
Maybe Nintendo was onto something when they used to force third parties to only make 5 games a year.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on January 27, 2010, 11:48:42 PM
Farcry Vengeance, I love you so.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: ShyGuy on January 27, 2010, 11:50:59 PM
How many have you played, Kairon?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on January 27, 2010, 11:59:30 PM
I own seven of the games on the wall, and I plan to buy two more, plus there are two titles on there I considered buying before and am mildly interested in.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to play some The Dog Island.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: A Straight Up Trippin' Balls Forum User on January 28, 2010, 12:15:45 AM
Just thought I'd share a little bit of history:

April 2006: Ubisoft CEO: "I can say definitely, as any other developer, we are looking at this magical platform, and we want to be part of the adventure."

Their first game announced after the SEVEN-game, 2006 holiday blitz? 

Cosmic Family for Wii: Space Adventure for Children Promotes Early Learning Through Stimulating and Fun Mini-Games

A few VERY prescient comments from the thread:

"Cosmic Family(TM), an exciting space adventure geared toward young children"

Uh oh.  No good will come from this.  Anything INTENTIONALLY designed for young kids is usually a bust.  The best "kids stuff" is usually designed for anyone to enjoy but with content inappropriate for kids not included.  In short stuff made for kids sucks but stuff made in such a way that kids CAN enjoy it can be great.

I'm not crazy about this game's chances myself, but Nintendo has shown us that it can capture new markets, I think Ubisoft is on the right track, but it chose the wrong market.  Little kids can't afford their own games, and parents are going to think twice since similar PC software is much cheaper.

I think the game will need an attractive price.

Ubisoft 66 is the Capcom 5 for a new generation.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on January 28, 2010, 12:17:48 AM
I own just two of those games, although there are five that I want to buy, and a few others that I'm curious about.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to play some The Dog Island.
This is one I'm curious about. Have you happened to post a review of it?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on January 28, 2010, 01:06:22 AM
What criteria to you use there? Sales? Quality? Just the publisher?

I gotta check if Ubisoft was involved with Dawn of Discovery in Germany too, otherwise they'd just count as localizing it.

Anyway, third parties: A bunch of mindless jerks who were the first against the wall (of shame) when the revolution (now called Wii) came.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on January 28, 2010, 01:25:30 AM
I count 7 that interest me and/or I own.

Own:
No More Heroes 1 & 2
Tenchu 4

Plan on Buying:
Red Steel 2
Rabbids Go Home
Dawn of Discovery

I am also curious in trying the Broken Sword game since I like P&C adventure games.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on January 28, 2010, 05:27:46 AM
I got RRR, RGH, Red Steel and NMH but RGH is the only one I liked.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on January 28, 2010, 02:13:41 PM
When did this become stickied?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 28, 2010, 02:43:21 PM
Blazing Angels is a pretty decent game, and it definitely isn't casual. I don't think it deserves to be on the wall of shame. Neither does Tenchu, No More Heroes, and probably a few others as well.

Most of the others, though, definitely belong on the wall of shame.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on January 28, 2010, 02:44:31 PM
I think Pro placed them on The Wall Of Shame because they were published by Ubi. Association with Ubi = shame.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: vudu on January 28, 2010, 02:45:01 PM
When did this become stickied?
At about 1:50 AM CST

Quote
Stickied "The 3rd Party Wall of Shame"     Today at 01:50:50 am     UncleBob     Forum Moderator
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Urkel on January 28, 2010, 02:55:13 PM
And this is why my boycott is justified.
 
It's one thing to ignore the system. It's another to flood it with garbage and sabotage the perception of the platform. Ubisoft started the whole meme of "put shovelware on Wii and put your real efforts on the HD consoles".
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 28, 2010, 03:03:39 PM
I actually have TV Show King, but I got it off of WiiWare instead of on a disc.

I want my money back...

/cry
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 28, 2010, 08:22:51 PM
Looks like Natal and Arc about to be the new dumping ground for Ubisoft to focus on.

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/37305/Ubisoft-plans-2010-surprises
Quote
Ubisoft plans 2010 surprises
by James Batchelor

Unannounced titles and big brand returns on the way this calendar year

Ubisoft is set to build on 2009 with a blockbuster line-up of established franchises, new IP and unique motion-sensing projects.

The publisher has highlighted Splinter Cell: Conviction, Ruse and Prince of Persia: The Forgotten Sands as key releases for the first half of the year and promised there are several more potential hits in the works.

“With a strong line-up of great games and a commitment to pushing our franchises into the broader entertainment arena, we are confident 2010 will be a stellar year for us,” Ubisoft’s UK marketing director Murray Pannell told MCV.

Pannell conceded that this year will be “a very competitive time with most major publishers scheduling some pretty big titles.” But he remains confident that Ubisoft’s 2010 portfolio will be able hold its own, thanks to a few upcoming surprises.

He said: “We’re still to announce a number of significant titles that we know will arrive in the next 12 months, so rest assured there will be a great mix of established franchises and new IP that will hit across the range of current generation consoles.

“We are also really excited to see how we can maximise the opportunities that the new motion-sensing gaming technologies will present us later in the year.”

In December, the publisher confirmed it is currently working on ten titles for Microsoft’s Project Natal, with up to five additional projects in development for Sony’s PlayStation 3 motion controller.

Ubisoft ended last year on a high with strong sales of its blockbuster Assassin’s Creed II, which has now sold over six million copies worldwide.
Last week, the French publisher announced a follow-up will be released by the end of the year.

Ubisoft also triumphed in this week’s All Formats Chart when surprise Wii hit Just Dance became the unlikely title to end Call Of Duty: Modern Warfare 2’s nine-week streak at No.1.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on January 28, 2010, 09:32:35 PM
I sure wish the Wii Motion Plus got that kind of support...
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 28, 2010, 09:51:29 PM
Wiimote got 66 games. what more do you want?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on January 28, 2010, 10:02:18 PM
I was referring to the support they are giving Microsoft and Sony's motion-based controllers. Even five games is more than Wii Motion Plus currently has.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on January 29, 2010, 12:24:43 AM
I'm sure we'll see more and better efforts one Red Steel 2 comes out an sells rather well.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on January 29, 2010, 12:37:55 AM
EDIT: Oops, wrong thread.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 29, 2010, 12:52:50 AM
What criteria to you use there? Sales? Quality? Just the publisher?

I gotta check if Ubisoft was involved with Dawn of Discovery in Germany too, otherwise they'd just count as localizing it.

Anyway, third parties: A bunch of mindless jerks who were the first against the wall (of shame) when the revolution (now called Wii) came.

I think Pro placed them on The Wall Of Shame because they were published by Ubi. Association with Ubi = shame.

If Ubi had a hand in publishing it, it went up.  I'm not being strict with region specifics.  My aim was to provide a ballpark majority snapshot of "what has this company done?" after 3 holiday seasons (plus a couple confirmed near-future titles).  The company is the object of shame, not the titles per se (you'll plentifully pass judgement on your own).

The individual collections are evidence that help illustrate the cumulative Wii history of the particular company.  You, Wii Gamer, will see the balance of Right and Wrong, various qualitative and quantitative relationships among the software, and their relationship with YOU.  YOU will reflect.  You might not like it.

I purposely arranged/scattered the box arts as an introductory game, asking You, the Wii Customer, to find instances of quality gaming and/or sincere game production.  With your eyes assaulted from various assailant art, there had to be some discomfort and difficulty in trying to identify obvious "winners" hidden in a crowd of duds. (I be easier on everyone next time)

- ANALOGY: in front of you is a barrel labeled "Ubi" filled with uniformly round, dry manure.  In this merry barrel are a bunch of "quarter-machine" capsule toys (the prizes), with similar size/shape/texture as the manure clumps (obviously, they SMELL the same too, like a company logo).  The volume ratio of capsule toys to the manure is basically the same as the ratio of "decent" games VS. "awful" games you derived from looking at the box art collection.  Your objective, Honored Contestant (a gambler, in a sense), is to stick your hand into this barrel and successfully retrieve the capsule toys BLINDFOLDED and without respiratory aides..... your trial is over, and you manage to retrieve some toys.
- THE LESSON:  You reiterate to yourself that this barrel is full of ****.  The prized toys, while of some value to you, were surrounded by ****.  The question, Dear Wii Customer, "will you do that again?"

Like I warned, Ubisoft was just the appetizer of sorts.  The very DEPTHS of your MIND may have been shock-and-awed as you glazed your virgin eyes along this album of despair, so I have to remind you that Ubisoft is NOT ALONE.  This Wall has no boundaries and will spare no resources.  (but i'm allowed to be lazy)

Good Googly Moogly!! I hope you didn't put that whole picture together yourself, but if you did, I'm glad you did it.

Activision is next, but I hope EA is after that. I'm not sure how many people are gonna have the stomach to handle all that, and that's before even getting to people like Namco or Konami.

You do not know my sacrifice.
Title: ~ Activision ~
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 29, 2010, 01:32:16 AM
Opening post has been updated with...
>> http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=30478.msg581036#msg581036

~ Activision ~

Wii Gamer, are you familiar with Dante's Inferno?  Descending across Activision's top layers, you find no hope, only pain and darkness. Reaching the bottom, you bear witness to structures of fiendish design.  What you find is wrong, unjust, unnatural, and destructive to all you hold sacred -- and it suddenly pains you the world has been taking this for granted.

Browsing this collection is like being accompanied by the Ghost of Christmas Yet-to-Come:  your stomach turns, you're filled with regret, then you ask, ``How did it come to this?  SPIRIT!  Take me back!  I can make this better!  Really, I can!"

You are too late, Wii Gamer.

Just keep thinking in your head as you peruse these titles:

"This is Nintendo's fault"
"This is my fault"

"The reason these games flopped is because I chose not to be fooled by knockoffs"
"The reason these games flopped is because all the casual gamers are hardcore Nintendo fans"

"Publishers are totally justified in insulting me for these games not selling"
"I wanted these games"
"This is all my fault"

"Nintendo pointed a gun at the CEO's head and forced them to make these games at gunpoint"
"Nintendo never gave them a chance"
"Nintendo should've marketed these games; the public deserved to know"

If you need more time to reflect, take it.  You are responsible for your own penance.  When you're finished, you may proceed below.



Here is the Progression of Events of 3rd Party Excuses (PE3PE).  Study it well, and this knowledge will be your sword.

2006 - Nintendo included a free game with their console!  Our ripoffs won't sell now!  Boo!
2007 - This Wii is just a fad, people only bought it for Nintendo games and casual games.
2008 - Nintendo makes too many games!  How can we compete against Mario Kart Wii, SSBB, Wii Fit...
2009 - Nintendo doesn't make enough games!  How do we know what to rip off?
2010 - Wii, despite shattering sales records, is not a viable console for casual games.


Coming Soon...

~ Electronic Arts ~
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on January 29, 2010, 01:46:46 AM
Oh Activision is downright scurrilous.  Look at the Wii sports Knockoffs Big League Sports.  Notice how the package is made to resemble Wii Sports almost exactly, even using the D-Pad as a "T."  I guess it shows Wii owners aren't a bunch of idiots who could be fooled that easily.

Another thing to see about Activision is that, they do have quite a few good games in there.  But just many, many more bad ones.  and this affects public perception.

Also note a few trends these third parties follow:

1. Games about dogs or animals.
2. Games about being a veterinarian.
3. At least one game based on a TV series that really doesn't make sense (Grey's Anatomy?  iCarly?)
4. One out of genre spinoff of a major series.
5. At least one game with a "Z" replacing an "S" for a plural nouns.

And none of these were accepted.  At least not as much as Nintendo's games.

And if you think Big League Sports was a ripoff cover, check out Madagascar Kartz and Mario Kart boxes.

(http://www.bitcom.lv/cache/product_images/big/20091223/nintendo_wii_madagascar_kartz.jpg_madagascar-kartz.jpg)(http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/droolicious/2009/05/mario-kart-wii-box.jpg)

What a shameless attempt at a con, and one that didn't fool anybody.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on January 29, 2010, 01:52:54 AM
I have... 5 Ativision games. Actually, that five doesn't feel like a lot for some reason.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on January 29, 2010, 01:54:20 AM
Oh Activision is downright scurrilous.  Look at the Wii sports Knockoffs Big League Sports.  Notice how the package is made to resemble Wii Sports almost exactly, even using the D-Pad as a "T."  I guess it shows Wii owners aren't a bunch of idiots who could be fooled that easily.

It doesn't even look remotely like my Wii Sports box...
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on January 29, 2010, 01:58:33 AM
If you take away the game screens on the Wii Sports box, it's quite similar.  And it's also very similar to the Wii Sports badge on the Wii box itself.  Activision was hoping for some confused people to think "Is this the Wii sports game everybody's talking about?" (being general about "wii sports game")  Thankfully, nobody bit, but that didn't stop them from grinding out more.

And there's also the infamous Monkey Mischief (Party Time).  Who the hell at Activision thought this crap was a good idea?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 29, 2010, 03:01:27 AM
Ahh, I get it. Mario = the Lion, and Luigi = the Zebra.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on January 29, 2010, 09:38:34 AM
Activision was hoping for some confused people to think "Is this the Wii sports game everybody's talking about?"

Considering Wii Sports is a pack-in I think most people who buy Wii games will know what the real Wii Sports looks like because they already own it.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on January 29, 2010, 09:50:47 AM
That's, what, 77 games? Is it sad that I am only interested in/own 6 total from that list? Activision is worse than Ubisoft. Ubi=7/66 Activision=6/77. Sad.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: broodwars on January 29, 2010, 09:54:31 AM
How exactly is this a "3rd Party Wall of Shame" when there are actually good games from both Ubisoft and Activision in those images?  I don't see that it matters much if Ubisoft created or localized some of those games.  We still wouldn't have them if they didn't bring them over.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on January 29, 2010, 09:57:54 AM
I think Pro's trying to arguw that the negatives far outweigh the positives, and that we should compare the promises of third party support with their overall release portfolios.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on January 29, 2010, 09:58:26 AM
How exactly is this a "3rd Party Wall of Shame" when there are actually good games from both Ubisoft and Activision in those images?  I don't see that it matters much if Ubisoft created or localized some of those games.  We still wouldn't have them if they didn't bring them over.

Pro's point is that you have to wade through a barrel of **** to find the juicy morsels worth playing.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on January 29, 2010, 09:59:42 AM
Activision was hoping for some confused people to think "Is this the Wii sports game everybody's talking about?"

Considering Wii Sports is a pack-in I think most people who buy Wii games will know what the real Wii Sports looks like because they already own it.

I suppose there could have been some confusion when they bought the Wii in the first place.


I'm pretty sure the only Activision Wii games I own are some of the Guitar Hero games.  This actually comes as a surprise to me.  What an educational public service this is turning into.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on January 29, 2010, 10:02:03 AM
How exactly is this a "3rd Party Wall of Shame" when there are actually good games from both Ubisoft and Activision in those images?  I don't see that it matters much if Ubisoft created or localized some of those games.  We still wouldn't have them if they didn't bring them over.

Pro's point is that you have to wade through a barrel of **** to find the juicy morsels worth playing.

But that's true of EVERYTHING in life!
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: broodwars on January 29, 2010, 10:03:38 AM
How exactly is this a "3rd Party Wall of Shame" when there are actually good games from both Ubisoft and Activision in those images?  I don't see that it matters much if Ubisoft created or localized some of those games.  We still wouldn't have them if they didn't bring them over.

Pro's point is that you have to wade through a barrel of **** to find the juicy morsels worth playing.

But that's true of EVERYTHING in life!

I believe the exact quote is "90% of EVERYTHING is crap!" (Sturgeon's Law)
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on January 29, 2010, 10:43:25 AM
How exactly is this a "3rd Party Wall of Shame" when there are actually good games from both Ubisoft and Activision in those images?  I don't see that it matters much if Ubisoft created or localized some of those games.  We still wouldn't have them if they didn't bring them over.

It shows you what those companies do with their brand name.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 29, 2010, 11:02:48 AM
How exactly is this a "3rd Party Wall of Shame" when there are actually good games from both Ubisoft and Activision in those images?  I don't see that it matters much if Ubisoft created or localized some of those games.  We still wouldn't have them if they didn't bring them over.

I know this has been answered 3 times already (pro addressed this question once before) but it's shameful that 3rd parties would release half of the crap they do on the Wii and then blame the consumer for not buying it and the Wii for not making it a big seller.

But was there really 9 Hero games in the last 3 years!!? 7 of then Guitar!? no wonder the music genre is not doing as well as it used to. That's more than 1 game every 6 months that plays exactly like the last one only with a new track list. That's ridiculous.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: A Straight Up Trippin' Balls Forum User on January 29, 2010, 11:09:25 AM
Wow.. more deer hunting games than Tony Hawk.

Wii got Crystal Chronicle'd on a whole new level.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on January 29, 2010, 01:26:52 PM
Oh wow, I just saw the customer reviews on that Big League Sports game, average of one star with everyone complaining that they were looking for something to follow up on Wii Sports but all that game delivered was shitty training minigames, not even properly playing the game. Instead of playing simultaneously multiplayer is a hot seat highscore challenge. Those reviews are pure hatred and I can't imagine that it did much for Activision's brand image (one comment specifically mentions never buying from Activision again and several say they feel defrauded and think Activision needs to be sued over it).
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on January 29, 2010, 03:20:05 PM
Wow. Activision's list is pretty terrible. I don't own any of those, but there are a few that I have interest in. The 007 game, for one. I also kind of want to try a Call of Duty game just because it is a long-running, critically acclaimed series. I'm curious how the Tony Hawk games play, I enjoyed the ones on Nintendo 64 and GameCube.

Guitar Hero... I played III and it was okay, but I don't think it is something I want to own. Certainly not more than one, at least.

Is it sad that I am only interested in/own 6 total from that list?
How many of them are Guitar Hero games?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 29, 2010, 03:37:42 PM
I think Activision could have avoiding playing out the music genre if they had released just Guitar Hero World Tour and then the other versions as music packs with character models that you can either buy on on disc at retail($19.99) or as DLC.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on January 29, 2010, 05:35:43 PM
Just to consolidate responses to Broodwars and Kairon.  Sure, there are a few good games on the wall of shame.  A few.  But most are the sort of shovelware the likes of which even God has never seen.

Pro's talking about brand mistrust and why your discerning Wii gamer will stick to Nintendo.  If he made a "Nintendo Wall of Glory" You'd see most of their games aren't "garbage" even when they are low budget.  Nintendo's games aren't "90% crap."  Some may not be your cup of tea, but none of them were foisted onto Wii owners like "Space Camp" or another Wii Sports ripoff as late as October 2009.

Also it shows that because the the titles released earlier in the generation from third parties got more sales than their later ones, initially the Wii gamer was trusting of third parties until they started getting real garbage dumped on them.  Then they rejected and rebuffed their games outright, even if they were good (Sega felt this) simply because of a ruined first impression.  It's cause and effect, a consequence of treating your customer like an idiot, and entirely their own fault.  Maybe if they had tried harder in 2006,2007, and 2008 they wouldn't have felt the sting of people's disinterest.  But instead, they blame me, you, Nintendo, the economy, etc.  Everybody except themselves and their shoddy development, poor marketing, and ruined brandname for the majority of gamers.

And really, who could side with the third parties here?   Who looks at this list and says "That's a great effort!  That totally matches Nintendo's 40 or so games."  Considering both the sales AND gamerankings AND amazon reviews AND professional critics would disagree, anybody who would would be in the vast minority and look like an apologist or a shill.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 29, 2010, 06:29:13 PM
A lot of those Ubisoft games that can be considered good are games that were only published by Ubisoft and were actually created by someone else. No More Heroes is a perfect example of this. Did Ubisoft publish this? Yeah. Were they the ones who made it? No.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: broodwars on January 29, 2010, 10:05:45 PM
A lot of those Ubisoft games that can be considered good are games that were only published by Ubisoft and were actually created by someone else. No More Heroes is a perfect example of this. Did Ubisoft publish this? Yeah. Were they the ones who made it? No.

Does it matter that Ubisoft didn't develop those titles?  No, because whether you like it or not localization is neither free nor easy.  Resources had to be allocated to the localization process, and for all the problems that Ubisoft's titles have the translation and voice acting are not usually among them.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_insanolord on January 29, 2010, 10:14:25 PM
I'm sure Imagine: Veterinarian Babyz was translated perfectly and had excellent voice acting.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on January 30, 2010, 12:20:19 AM
A lot of those Ubisoft games that can be considered good are games that were only published by Ubisoft and were actually created by someone else. No More Heroes is a perfect example of this. Did Ubisoft publish this? Yeah. Were they the ones who made it? No.

Does it matter that Ubisoft didn't develop those titles?  No, because whether you like it or not localization is neither free nor easy.  Resources had to be allocated to the localization process, and for all the problems that Ubisoft's titles have the translation and voice acting are not usually among them.

I think it matters because if you take away the localized games, UBISoft's good games on that list get reduced by 25%.  Yes, localization costs money, but not as much money as making good games yourself, and when those two games are your highest rated games, and sold more than 80% of the crap on there, then it really shows that you can't be bothered to actually make quality games.  UBISoft was the one who pledged to make "Nintendo Quality Games" and Somehow I don't think Cook Wars or Imagine Fashion Party is what anybody had in mind.

And yeah, Pro's giving credit to UBI for them, just like he's giving credit for Victorious Boxers even though they only published that in Europe.  All this is straight up "Who's got the best lineup on Wii?"  "Who's made the most bad games?"  "Who deserves to sell the most?"  The answer isn't surprising, although third parties expected it to be them with their flooding of the market with cheap crap, and then throwing a tantrum when they don't get easy sales from customers they think are retarded.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on January 30, 2010, 01:34:45 AM
Actually, I see everything that Pro is arguing wit the list. But it still doesn't change the fact that I own a bunch of games on that list, and WAY more than I owned for the GC from the respective publishers. In fact, these two lists almost make Ubisoft look good to me because I own and enjoy more games from them than Activision.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on January 30, 2010, 02:05:02 AM
I believe 5 of the 6 are Guitar Hero games. GH3, World Tour, Smash Hits, GH5 and Band Hero. LOL
Last one is Modern Warfare Reflex. I'm not counting World at War because once Reflex was announced I lost interest in getting that.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Ymeegod on January 30, 2010, 07:01:16 PM
Well that's the problem with the WII--it's so freaking flooded even the good games gets burried in the pile. 

Where's EA list? 
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 30, 2010, 07:06:10 PM
Where's EA list? 

Patience you must have.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 30, 2010, 08:41:17 PM
Pro Daisy is on vacation in Tahoe right now.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on January 30, 2010, 11:27:01 PM
I want to see the Nintendo wall for comparison too.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on January 31, 2010, 01:46:39 AM
So I put forth a question to everyone. You know how it is common on eBay to sell large 'lots' of videogames? If the 'Ubi-66' or 'Activiasion-77' were up for bid on eBay, how high would you be willing to go to win it? This is assuming you have a few titles in there you actually want. If you could get a decent deal, would you try and win it just for those few you wanted?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on January 31, 2010, 03:03:34 AM
I don't know... there is such a thing as negative value... I HAVE thrown away DVDs before so that they don't sully the rest of my movie collection.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 31, 2010, 03:09:17 AM
So I put forth a question to everyone. You know how it is common on eBay to sell large 'lots' of videogames? If the 'Ubi-66' or 'Activiasion-77' were up for bid on eBay, how high would you be willing to go to win it? This is assuming you have a few titles in there you actually want. If you could get a decent deal, would you try and win it just for those few you wanted?

Maybe. If it was a good enough deal I would buy the lot and then resell the games I don't like.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: A Straight Up Trippin' Balls Forum User on January 31, 2010, 12:44:23 PM
Sounds like a good hot topic question for another thread. I think I would go up to about $15-20...even though I wouldn't have the shelf space.

The six-sided-video style gameplay videos would be worth it.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: broodwars on January 31, 2010, 02:04:18 PM
I see people calling for an EA collage on here, but I'm struggling to think of too many bad Wii games they've released.  Granted, it's a lot of yearly iteration sports games and some throwaway casual stuff, but I don't remember any particularly bad games in that pack.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: ShyGuy on January 31, 2010, 02:05:24 PM
Pro's contribution is epic here.

Amazingly, Activision is even worse than Ubisoft. Shameful sequel heaven. I own two of the games and only see about 5 total that look worth it to me.

After EA, do we get anyone else? 2k games? How about some Japanese publishers?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: broodwars on January 31, 2010, 02:14:50 PM
After EA, do we get anyone else? 2k games? How about some Japanese publishers?

There's no point in doing one for 2K Games.  According to GameFAQs, they've only released 4 games on Wii so far: Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, Carnival Games, Don King Boxing, and Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus. Granted, not exactly quality releases, but it's a tiny number of releases compared to everyone else.

If you want to do Japanese companies, Capcom's always a good pick I suppose.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 31, 2010, 02:16:35 PM
What would be a good follow up after we go the the shameful contributions of 3rd parties on Wii, would be to compare that with what they released on the PS360 to get the full understanding of why this wall is so shameful.


After EA, do we get anyone else? 2k games? How about some Japanese publishers?

There's no point in doing one for 2K Games.  According to GameFAQs, they've only released 5 games on Wii so far: Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, Carnival Games, Don King Boxing, and Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus. Granted, not exactly quality releases, but it's a tiny number of releases compared to everyone else.

If you want to do Japanese companies, Capcom's always a good pick I suppose.

2k Games is part of Take 2 interactive, so if you were to do anyone, it would be Take2 which includes 2k, R* and maybe a few others.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on January 31, 2010, 02:54:56 PM
So I put forth a question to everyone. You know how it is common on eBay to sell large 'lots' of videogames? If the 'Ubi-66' or 'Activiasion-77' were up for bid on eBay, how high would you be willing to go to win it? This is assuming you have a few titles in there you actually want. If you could get a decent deal, would you try and win it just for those few you wanted?
$66 and $77, respectively. I'd try anything for a buck. I would try each one just out of curiosity, and would likely sell most of them after that.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on January 31, 2010, 02:58:20 PM
Maybe a more objective measure might be what Gamestop would be willing to pay if you traded all these games in.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 31, 2010, 06:09:35 PM
Actually, I see everything that Pro is arguing wit the list. But it still doesn't change the fact that I own a bunch of games on that list, and WAY more than I owned for the GC from the respective publishers. In fact, these two lists almost make Ubisoft look good to me because I own and enjoy more games from them than Activision.

I probably own a similar number of Ubi/Activision games as you, but we are only a couple of well-informed enthusiasts with questionable buying habits.  We are INSIGNIFICANT compared to the Countless Un-Informed and/or Less enthusiastic.  Publishers have to do little to capture our daring, adventurous interests.

The Wall of Shame isn't concerned with projecting our anecdotes on the climate.  We know what the 3rd Parties did, we know how the consumers responded, and we know how the 3rd Parties "responded" to that.  I believe we know enough to see what adds up, what doesn't, and when 3rd Parties are serving up Soft-Serve Ass Cream in retail and the press.  3rd Parties will not, cannot escape responsibility and accountability while the Wall of Shame stands.  they're welcome to go out of business, however

Maybe a more objective measure might be what Gamestop would be willing to pay if you traded all these games in.

Cursed Mountain is worth $3 trade-in value at GameStop =|

I want to see the Nintendo wall for comparison too.

Construction of the Wall of Shame must be completed before breaking ground on the next project's foundation.  The Nintendo Wall of Glory is currently in the design & planning phase, and is awaiting funding upon Reggie's approval.  The Revolution encompasses multiple projects.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on January 31, 2010, 07:03:20 PM
3rd Parties will not, cannot escape responsibility and accountability while the Wall of Shame stands.

Well, I will admit that it's hard to argue with "the wall."

Maybe a more objective measure might be what Gamestop would be willing to pay if you traded all these games in.

Cursed Mountain is worth $3 trade-in value at GameStop =|

Well then SCREW objectivity.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: A Straight Up Trippin' Balls Forum User on January 31, 2010, 08:37:58 PM
I think what Ningurl is trying to say is that, sure, we own the good games and are happy with them; but picture yourself as a soccer mom with a red cart and bag of popcorn at Target facing that wall in the game aisle.

How can she/you possibly choose a quality title? After making a couple wrong and expensive choices, aren't you going to be a tad disenchanted with gaming in general and stick to only buying games with good word of mouth?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 01, 2010, 01:23:05 AM
"All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall."
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 01, 2010, 05:23:36 AM
"All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall."

"We don't need no casual frustration
We don't need no waggle control
No on-rails boom doom in the games room
3rd parties leave them kids alone
Hey! 3rd parties! Leave them kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in Pro's wall
All in all you're just another brick in Pro's wall"
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 01, 2010, 10:55:57 AM
That was actually very similar to what I had going through my head. LOL

We have a Thread Theme Song.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: noname2200 on February 01, 2010, 11:24:22 AM
Wow. Activision's list is pretty terrible. I don't own any of those, but there are a few that I have interest in. The 007 game, for one.

No you don't. Believe me, no you don't.
 

Pro's talking about brand mistrust and why your discerning Wii gamer will stick to Nintendo.  If he made a "Nintendo Wall of Glory" You'd see most of their games aren't "garbage" even when they are low budget.  Nintendo's games aren't "90% crap."  Some may not be your cup of tea, but none of them were foisted onto Wii owners like "Space Camp" or another Wii Sports ripoff as late as October 2009.


I believe someone else pointed this out already, but to really compare we must see those companies' output on the HD twins as well. I'm fairly certain that the list would be much more flattering, but then I didn't know 80% of the listed games even existed, so I'm not exactly qualified to judge.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 01, 2010, 12:51:39 PM
Why would a discerning Wii gamer care about the games they make for consoles they do not own?

This thread is 100% about Third parties and Wii, why their complaints about low sales and whiny excuse-making are such a farce due to the evidence of their flooding of the Wii's game shelves with some of the worst games they've ever made.

To compete against Nintendo, as is the third parties charge and our expectations of them, they must meet head-on in the field of development battle.  They complain of low sales for their barely-advertised core-esque spinoffs.  Pro shows the reasons why customers and gamers alike stick to Nintendo is because the third parties have tarnished their own image in shovelware, eager for a quick buck, and are looking for somebody to blame when those hoodwinked and angry customers come home to roost.

The fact that some of their better games are on other consoles is precisely the point.  They'd get better sales if they made better games from the start.  But to the largest audience, they've said "Here, pay us $50 for an inferior version of a game you got for free with your console."  They've said "Do you like minigames?  Have 3 titles from each of us."

They've treated Wii owners like schmucks, marks, fools, idiots, and lab rats.  When the Wii owners plead "no mas," "non plus," and "dame yo!"  they kept on churning out shovelware.  When the retailers (Target, Wal-mart, etc.) told them after 3 years that minigame collections and casual Wii games do not sell (!!!) and that they would order no more, the third parties were looking for an excuse.  They scrambled for ass-cover as they blamed you, me, Nintendo, the economy, Martians, etc.  They accuse Nintendo of making too many games.  They accuse Nintendo of not making enough games.  They accuse you of being a blind Nintendo fanboy for having the audacity to choose New Super Mario Brothers Wii over Dancing with the Stars.  All because their plan of "milking casuals" with a bunch of awful games backfired when the people they thought were idiots proved otherwise.

No longer.  Everytime a third party game fails on Wii, they shall look to the wall and wonder "Could things have been different?  Could I have made good games instead of shovelware?  Could my name be trusted by 70 million people if I didn't insult them from day one?  Could my game have sold better if my brandname wasn't tarnished by my own actions?  Why doesn't Nintendo have my problems?"

And ask yourself one final question.  "Who deserves to sell the most Wii games?"  The answer to that is the point of this thread.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 01, 2010, 01:26:26 PM
Why would a discerning Wii gamer care about the games they make for consoles they do not own?

This thread is 100% about Third parties and Wii, why their complaints about low sales and whiny excuse-making are such a farce due to the evidence of their flooding of the Wii's game shelves with some of the worst games they've ever made.

That is exactly why we would also look at their output on the HD twinz. They complain about not getting sales on Wii and release a bunch of garbage. But what are they releasing on the HD consoles that aren't making their way to the Wii and vice versa? I don't hear anyone complaining about games bombing on the HD consoles, they just quietly pack up their stuff and close up shop.

A direct comparison of releases on Wii vs PS360 will paint a very clear picture of what 3rd parties think of each audience and possibly even illustrate the difference in quality and effort put towards one group and not the other.


edit: I know EA is up next and I have no idea how their their individual portion of the wall is gonna look, but THQ has to be next after that.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 01, 2010, 05:39:43 PM
My question is, would it be possible to turn things around from here? After over three years of this, it would seem many companies have built up quite a bit of consumer mistrust. If third-parties halted development of the dreck and started producing mostly quality titles (including some of the franchises they release on other systems), would the general game-buying public take notice? Is it now too late? Would it even be worth it for third-parties to attempt such a dramatic switch when a majority of their games already sell fine on other systems?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 01, 2010, 05:53:07 PM
Anything is possible. There are lots of 3rd party games still selling, so it's just a matter of clearing the filth of the shelf and letting the good games be shine.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: broodwars on February 01, 2010, 06:11:50 PM
My question is, would it be possible to turn things around from here? After over three years of this, it would seem many companies have built up quite a bit of consumer mistrust. If third-parties halted development of the dreck and started producing mostly quality titles (including some of the franchises they release on other systems), would the general game-buying public take notice? Is it now too late? Would it even be worth it for third-parties to attempt such a dramatic switch when a majority of their games already sell fine on other systems?

I'm not sure at this point.  While big 3rd party games might not find the audience on the HD consoles that they might find on Wii if the damn expanded audience would do the slightest bit of research and expand their horizons, for the most part I've seen good games sell reasonably well there and bad games do not.  There are flukes like Valkyria Chronicles that get tossed out there and are tragically unloved, but for the most part quality seems to be ruling.

Contrast that with Wii, where sales are all over the map and the only thing that seems to get the expanded audience's attention is a massive marketing blitz the likes of which most HD games don't even seem to see.  After several years of largely being ignored by just about everyone, we core gamers on Wii are much pickier than we used to be as well.  Even if 3rd parties turn it all around and really consistently put out the AAA effort on Wii, it's a major gamble to put in those major marketing resources when there's a high likelyhood the game will be ignored.  By contrast, the HD console fanbases largely consist of gamers who know where to find their media and how, and it's probably much cheaper and easier to find an audience there and market directly to it.  It all comes down to the question "Is the gamble worth it when you know there's a huge payoff if you succeed on Wii and a massive flop if you don't?"  I honestly don't know.  I hope more companies are willing to take the gamble, but 3 years into the Wii's life cycle I have to wonder if they'd be better off trying to start fresh on Wii HD in a few years.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 01, 2010, 08:42:33 PM
Quote
I'm not sure at this point.  While big 3rd party games might not find the audience on the HD consoles that they might find on Wii if the damn expanded audience would do the slightest bit of research and expand their horizons, for the most part I've seen good games sell reasonably well there and bad games do not.  There are flukes like Valkyria Chronicles that get tossed out there and are tragically unloved, but for the most part quality seems to be ruling.

This paragraph is confusing but I think you're trying to say that quality games sell on HD where they don't on Wii.  But a lot of complaints are levied against against Nintendo because their games sell the most are overshadow third party "efforts."  Again, does Nintendo not make the best Wii games?  And thus, do they not deserve the best sales?  And because they get the best sales, doesn't that mean that quality games rule on the Wii when given the same kind of love and care Nintendo gives their games?

Quote
Contrast that with Wii, where sales are all over the map and the only thing that seems to get the expanded audience's attention is a massive marketing blitz the likes of which most HD games don't even seem to see.  After several years of largely being ignored by just about everyone, we core gamers on Wii are much pickier than we used to be as well.  Even if 3rd parties turn it all around and really consistently put out the AAA effort on Wii, it's a major gamble to put in those major marketing resources when there's a high likelyhood the game will be ignored.  By contrast, the HD console fanbases largely consist of gamers who know where to find their media and how, and it's probably much cheaper and easier to find an audience there and market directly to it.  It all comes down to the question "Is the gamble worth it when you know there's a huge payoff if you succeed on Wii and a massive flop if you don't?"  I honestly don't know.  I hope more companies are willing to take the gamble, but 3 years into the Wii's life cycle I have to wonder if they'd be better off trying to start fresh on Wii HD in a few years.

But sales aren't "all over the map."  They've bought the highest quality games on the system, Nintendo games.  And expanded audience gamers HAVE done their research.  They bought a few of the third party games at first and have "researched" that they blow ass.  Why should they commit the same mistake repeatedly?  It's not their fault, nor is it Nintendo, that third parties chose to shovelware up the joint and ruin their own names.  And of course Nintendo core gamers are pickier.  Nobody wants experiments or spinoffs in lieu of the actual product.  That's why they mostly buy Nintendo games.

It's not hard.  Nintendo makes the best games, they get the best sales.  If third parties made the best games, they might have at least many if not more sales.  But we'll never know because third parties fouled the pool.  And the "wii owners are fickle" talking point came from Capcom and EA and such when they saw that people weren't going to buy their 5th rail shooter in 1 year or their 100th Casual Party Minigame Collection.  So, blaming the Wii owner, they act put upon as if they worked hard to "try and focus o the Wii demographic" when they were still running on stale stereotypes from 2 years ago.

Wish they'd focus as much on their Wii games instead of talking about the behavior of Wii owners like it's their fault.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 01, 2010, 09:05:27 PM
Can the 3rd parties turn this around? Yeah. But are they going to? No. They've made it abundantly clear these last few years that they would rather go out of business than take any Nintendo console seriously.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: broodwars on February 01, 2010, 09:05:58 PM
We've seen a fair share of Nintendo games, though, not exactly sell phenomenally.  Titles like Wario Land Shake It; Punch Out; Metroid Prime 3 Corruption: and the Metroid Prime Trilogy come to mind.  In Japan, neither Super Mario Galaxy nor Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess sold what Nintendo would have liked.  On the 3rd Party Side, we've seen titles like Zack & Wiki; A Boy & His Blob; Okami; No More Heroes; and (so far) seemingly Silent Hill: Shattered Memories fail to sell all that spectacularly, and all of them are at least decent games.  I'm (pleasantly) surprised we're even seeing No More Heroes 2.  Then you have the rail shooters, which have for the most part been excellent.  But oh, that's right...it doesn't matter if the games are any good because those weren't the games you wanted.  And two of those also apparently "don't matter" because they are ports of games from last generation, despite the fact that the Wii has a userbase the PS2 and GC could only have dreamed of that didn't own games last generation.  I'm starting to think that the Wii audience doesn't really know what they want.  I hear constant derision on these forums about all those AAA games on the HD consoles that people don't seem to want ("Brown Shading" comments, much?), yet also whining that 3rd parties aren't also bringing those titles to Wii.  Do you want them or don't you?

Contrasting those titles, we have stuff like Carnival Games; Wii Play (yes, I know people bought it for the remote.  It doesn't mean they needed to pay an extra $10 for the game while they were at it); both Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games titles; seemingly Wii Music (hush, you); and a whole bunch of random shovelware crap that creeps up on the low end of the NPDs from time to time.  Yeah, they buy largely Nintendo games, and for the most part that's justified.  But the expanded audience buys a lot of crap as well while ignoring many good games on Wii, which we are then expected to step in and absorb with our wallets.  But they are too many and we are too few.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Ymeegod on February 01, 2010, 09:19:49 PM
Actually some of those sholveware titles sell--Petz for one sold 1/2 million copies which is kind of sad.  And don't get my freaking started on that Ubisoft's Just Dance crap.

And nintendo's not exactally an saint--Music or those pesty Mario and Sonic games--bleh.  Both sold like hotcakes even though the reviews were quite negative.

Yeah, crap games sell on PS3 and Xbox too but usually they are movie tie-ins which always been a problem (Total Recall I'm looking at you).   But these systems have a much bigger hardcore following which prevents crappy games from selling to much.

If those crappy games didn't sell then the developers would stop making them but on the WII it seems like those crappy titles can easily outsell those more hardcore games. 

Either blame the parents or the retailers because this crap is SELLING.  It's the hardcore games that get pushed to the side.



3. 
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 01, 2010, 09:26:16 PM
Wii Music will be one of the CROWNING ACHIEVEMENTS on Nintendo's Wall of Glory! Mark my words philistines! MARK MY WORDS!!!
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: broodwars on February 01, 2010, 09:28:34 PM
Wii Music will be one of the CROWNING ACHIEVEMENTS on Nintendo's Wall of Glory! Mark my words philistines! MARK MY WORDS!!!

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Nintendo's concept with Wii Music was sound, and I found their ideals for it praiseworthy.  It just died in the implementation.  I'm quite open to seeing a Wii Music 2 if they get it right this time.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Dasmos on February 01, 2010, 09:28:54 PM
those pesty Mario and Sonic games--bleh.  Both sold like hotcakes even though the reviews were quite negative. 

Pesky?

Well obviously you didn't play either of them, both were great games. Also they weren't made by Nintendo at all, they were developed by Sega.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 01, 2010, 09:29:40 PM
But oh, that's right...it doesn't matter if the games are any good because those weren't the games you wanted.

You act like people should be expected to buy games that they don't want just because they're good. Whether you want a game or not is more important than whether it could be considered good. I'm sick of people deciding that because they think a game is bad then everyone else should as well and acting like it's some kind of tragedy that something they don't like is doing well.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 01, 2010, 09:39:35 PM
I'm not sure at this point.  While big 3rd party games might not find the audience on the HD consoles that they might find on Wii if the damn expanded audience would do the slightest bit of research and expand their horizons, for the most part I've seen good games sell reasonably well there and bad games do not.  There are flukes like Valkyria Chronicles that get tossed out there and are tragically unloved, but for the most part quality seems to be ruling.

Of course, quality might mean different things on different consoles and to different audiences.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 01, 2010, 09:46:03 PM
Cheap games get sold..... old news.
Uninformed non-gaming enthusiast buying whatever sounds fun because it's likely at a discount..... old news.

Good games up on the shelves with tons of crap and the majority of the non-forum-using-non-gaming-enthusiast looking for a game having to shovel through all the ware without knowing what is what is the (not so)new problem.

No one is advertising the good games on Wii so those outside of the forums and outside the the gaming magazines have no idea which games to pick. All they ever see commercials for is whatever Nintendo advertises so of course when they go to buy something that is what's fresh on their mind.

I had a much longer post in my mind, but I've been bouncing back in forth between typing this post and watching TV(for 20+ minutes) so I have no idea what more I wanted to say at this point.
sorry if it's a little incoherent, maybe I'll fix/finish this thought later
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Ymeegod on February 01, 2010, 09:47:37 PM
Nintendo leased out it's character and still had the finial say and both of those games ranked low 67% for one and 70% for the other.  There's better party games out there that should have recieved those sales.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 01, 2010, 09:48:44 PM
Then they should have advertised them. We can't all expect to just know about a games existence and when it was released and that it was something that I was looking for.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 01, 2010, 09:52:23 PM
More and more, the Wii is convincing me that if you build a better mousetrap, the world WON'T beat a path to your door.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 01, 2010, 09:59:41 PM
Quote
We've seen a fair share of Nintendo games, though, not exactly sell phenomenally.  Titles like Wario Land Shake It; Punch Out; Metroid Prime 3 Corruption: and the Metroid Prime Trilogy come to mind.

Other than Wario Land and the special limited collector's edition of Metroid Prime Trilogy, those are Million sellers or close to it.  I'd hardly call them flops.

Quote
In Japan, neither Super Mario Galaxy nor Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess sold what Nintendo would have liked.

Mario Galaxy has outsold every PS360 game in Japan save one, and Zelda every game save about 10 or so.  They both have outsold the shovelware copycat Wii games by large margins.  I'm not sure what your point is.

The third party flops are a given for any generation and this one in particular because they thought they didn't need to market any of them.  Capcom fails on both Zack and Wiki and Okami mainly due to their absent marketing (Nintendo still markets their video games, yes, even "casual" ones.).  Zack and Wiki was advertised as an early childhood game and Okami wasn't advertised at all.  A Boy and his Blob is from Majesco, who's another violent shovelware offender, and with Zero marketing Who would think the game is quality.

Quote
Then you have the rail shooters, which have for the most part been excellent.  But oh, that's right...it doesn't matter if the games' any good because those weren't the games you wanted.

They're the games nobody wanted.  This is why they didn't sell very well, particularly in EA's case where they decided a few web banners was sufficient for their "massive undertaking" for Wii, despite the entire announcement for the game being a PR disaster and everybody basically hating the whole idea of the game from day one, no matter how decent a rail shooter it is.  And considering the actual proper Resident Evil game outsold both RE Rail shooter spinoffs, I think that's the one the consumers wanted more and apparently critics, too.

Quote
And two of those also apparently "don't matter" because they are ports of games from last generation, despite the fact that the Wii has a userbase the PS2 and GC could only have dreamed of that didn't own games last generation.

Rail shooters didn't sell on PS2 or GC either.

Quote
Contrasting those titles, we have stuff like Carnival Games

LOL I knew I was going to hear Carnival Games in this thread at one point (You'll also see it on Take 2's wall if Pro does Take 2)  IT's like the Go-to game for trying to imply the Wii userbase is a bunch of casuals, despite 67 million of the 70 million strong Wii userbase apprently doesn't want it.  It also being a budget $30 game from the middle of 2007 apparently doesn't matter either, nor does the fact that the Carnival games "Franchise" is a failure and most fo the games that rip this off (_____ Games) are also gigantic flops.

Quote
Wii Play (yes, I know people bought it for the remote.  It doesn't mean they needed to pay an extra $10 for the game while they were at it)

Well since you already know that Wii Play's value isn't really in the game itself, why don't third parties realize that when they knock it off and wonder why nobody's biting?

Quote
both Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games titles

Yeah I'm sure it's 100% casuals are the ones buying this.  Mario and Sonic being on the cover is a total coincidence and it's higher sales than the rest is a complete fluke too.

Quote
seemingly Wii Music (hush, you);

This game actually didn't do as well as you might think.  But even so, did it sell more than SSBB or Mario Galaxy or Zelda?  no.

Quote
and a whole bunch of random shovelware crap that creeps up on the low end of the NPDs from time to time.

So do any of them sell more than Mario Galaxy, Zelda, SSBB?  No.

Quote
But the expanded audience buys a lot of crap as well while ignoring many good games on Wii, which we are then expected to step in and absorb with our wallets.

Considering the sources of the few good games are also the source of the masses of shovelware, don't you think they are justified in being suspicious?

Quote
But they are too many and we are too few.

Yeah it's certainly a casual utopia on Wii.  that's why all these casual third party games in this thread are all major hits the likes of which even God has never seen. ::)

EDIT: It's funny to see people try and apologize for the third parties in this thread and harp on games like Wii Play and Wii music when they aren't even in the same LEAGUE of crap that most of the third party games on the wall.  Again, a double standard.  Nintendo makes a game that's critically panned, shame on you.  Third parties make a game that's critically DEAD, Well that's just what sells (even though they really don't).  Not their fault, right?

Nobody has yet convinced anybody that Nintendo does not deserve the most sales on Wii.  Nobody has disputed that Nintendo has made the best games on Wii.  This is the whole point of the thread.
 
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: broodwars on February 01, 2010, 10:10:07 PM
^
When I spoke of the "ports from last generation", I was referring to Okami and the Metroid Prime Trilogy (and for that matter, the NPC titles)...not the rail shooters.  People try and defend those titles not selling by deriding them as "ports of games we already own" (despite RE4 Wii being a port of a game we "already own" but that sold very well), but the overwhelming majority of Wii owners probably never played those games before and there's really no reason they shouldn't be buying them.  They just...don't.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 01, 2010, 10:12:00 PM
Well, they didn't really buy the NPC lineup of games from Nintendo either did they?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 01, 2010, 10:19:57 PM
^
When I spoke of the "ports from last generation", I was referring to Okami and the Metroid Prime Trilogy (and for that matter, the NPC titles)...not the rail shooters.  People try and defend those titles not selling by deriding them as "ports of games we already own" (despite RE4 Wii being a port of a game we "already own" but that sold very well), but the overwhelming majority of Wii owners probably never played those games before and there's really no reason they shouldn't be buying them.  They just...don't.

I think most of us bring up RE4 not because it was a port or whatever, we bring it up because it sold well and we wanted more games like it, not the rail shooters that took it's place.

Besides, RE4 was an upgrade to a game that we already owned and loved, and those of us that double (triple?) dipped on it were expecting more like it. We were bait and switched.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 01, 2010, 10:21:24 PM
Probably also didn't help that Capcom actually advertised Okami as a game nobody played.  The banner ad was something like "The best game nobody has ever played."  I mean the whole ad campaign was just defeatist to the max.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: A Straight Up Trippin' Balls Forum User on February 01, 2010, 10:26:51 PM
Another ubisoft golden oldie: "We made mistakes" - May 30, 2007

Ubisoft has reportedly learned from its mistakes, though, and is promising that the quality of its forthcoming Wii projects will be significantly better.

http://wii.ign.com/articles/792/792772p1.html (http://wii.ign.com/articles/792/792772p1.html)
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: broodwars on February 01, 2010, 10:29:21 PM
Another ubisoft golden oldie: "We made mistakes" - May 30, 2007

Ubisoft has reportedly learned from its mistakes, though, and is promising that the quality of its forthcoming Wii projects will be significantly better.

Yeah, I'll believe that when i see it, UbiBoll.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 01, 2010, 10:35:32 PM
Red Steel 2 is the make or break on that comment.
3 years in the making.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Ymeegod on February 01, 2010, 10:46:03 PM
Carnival Games: Mini Golf actually broke a million sells too.  :(  Which places it at freaking 5 millionish total which isn't a failure in my book.  Failure for the gamer yeah, but not for the publisher.

Metroid Prime 3 is one of the highest rated games and yet it sales are quite disappointing at 1.5 million.  If this game came out on the Xbox or PS side how many copies do you think would have sold?  I bet it would have been alot more than 1.5 million. 
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 01, 2010, 10:48:45 PM
Carnival Games is definitely one of those titles that people say is garbage when really it is just something which doesn't appeal to them. I've played it, and I found nothing broken about it. It delivers what it promises: games you find at carnivals. If you don't want that, then of course you wouldn't like it. So don't buy it. Problem solved.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 01, 2010, 10:55:28 PM
Carnival Games: Mini Golf actually broke a million sells too.  :(  Which places it at freaking 5 millionish total which isn't a failure in my book.  Failure for the gamer yeah, but not for the publisher.

Metroid Prime 3 is one of the highest rated games and yet it sales are quite disappointing at 1.5 million.  If this game came out on the Xbox or PS side how many copies do you think would have sold?  I bet it would have been alot more than 1.5 million.

This post is quite confusing.  It's bad that Carnival Games Golf broke a million (according to VGchartz which you are apparently sourcing) thus making it a smash hit success, but Metroid Prime 3's 1.5 million (2 million if you throw Metroid Prime Trilogy in there) is a disappointing bomb?  Man this generation does funny things to people.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Ymeegod on February 01, 2010, 10:58:10 PM
We are talking about sales.  How some games utterly bomb even though they scored much higher than the crap that does.

Saddly I doubt Ubisoft is going change their tune.  Just Dance is their Number 1 game and it's freaking awful yet it'll continue to sell.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 01, 2010, 11:03:38 PM
So, in your opinion, Metroid Prime 3 was a sales bomb at 1.5 million, but Dogz 2 selling 500,000 and Carnival games shedding a two thirds of its "fanbase" at one million is a justification to make more of that.

I'm still confused.

And yeah I knew it was going to happen with Just Dance.  They'll ignore every game that sold more than 5 million on the Wii and think the one that sold 600,000 or so is a supreme ultimate mega success and the answer to all their problems.  Then they'll drive it into the ground with yearly installments.  Same as before, basically.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: broodwars on February 01, 2010, 11:09:54 PM
And yeah I knew it was going to happen with Just Dance.  They'll ignore every game that sold more than 5 million on the Wii and think the one that sold 600,000 or so is a supreme ultimate mega success and the answer to all their problems.  Then they'll drive it into the ground with yearly installments.  Same as before, basically.

I think it has more to do with a game selling 600,000 that probably cost about a fraction of that to actually make.  The Wii's (relatively) cheap development cost can be quite the double-edged sword, as it was on both the PS1 and PS2.

And incidentally, Metroid Prime 3 supposedly sold 1.5 million units?  I'm curious how long it took that game to reach those sales numbers, because I'm starting to wonder how many companies can afford to handle the Wii's "slow burn" phenomenon.  I mean, bills have to be paid somewhere, so can companies afford to wait for these games to eventually turn a profit small chunks at a time (especially the AAA stuff)?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Ymeegod on February 01, 2010, 11:11:11 PM
And MP sales are being compared to other games of it's calibur.  It's rated the number 1 highest rated game on the WII yet it sales are 35th for the console.  And if you compare it to what games of it type sell on the PS3 or Xbox it's pretty much one sided.  Killzone 2 beats it and that wasnt even an AAA title.

MP3 should have sold MILLIONS and that why I think Big N considers it a disappointment and why it's not even handling the series anymore.  It's sales from the SNES weren't hot neither and it's why Big N discontinued it--Retro was the ones that brought the series back not Big N.  Same for Fzero.  Doubt we'll see an sequel to that anytime soon.  Sega's Fzero GX sold like a whooping 100K even though it was rated high.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 01, 2010, 11:12:24 PM
Just Dance is their Number 1 game and it's freaking awful yet it'll continue to sell.
You wouldn't happen to be judging a game you haven't played, now would you?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 01, 2010, 11:20:06 PM
Just Dance is their Number 1 game and it's freaking awful yet it'll continue to sell.
You wouldn't happen to be judging a game you haven't played, now would you?

Thank you Mop It Up.

Man, I remember when GoldenPhoenix and I both got Carnival Games. We were SHOCKED by how not-awful that game was. It wasn't pristine, but it did have some qualities, and a certain stickiness and reward mechanic, which a lot of other games lacked.

Of course, I don't really like golf or minigolf, so I never bothered to investigate the sequel.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Ymeegod on February 01, 2010, 11:22:39 PM
Don't have to play a crappy game when I could just look up the reviews.  It's averaging a freakin 5 (less actually).

You don't have to step in crap to know it stinks.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 01, 2010, 11:26:20 PM
Sales > reviews.

When a game sells that much, chances are people like it.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 01, 2010, 11:28:09 PM
Quote
It's rated the number 1 highest rated game on the WII

I'm pretty sure the highest rated game on the Wii is Mario Galaxy.

And I highly recommend not using VGChartz as a reliable rubric.  Just recently they had to adjust a few title upward by as much as 500,000 units.  They get things way wrong sometimes.

Furthermore, You can't say that X Casual game selling a million is a failure for gaming on Wii and then say X Regular game selling 1.5 million is bad because of notions of what it would sell on other platforms.  That's a complete non sequitir and has nothing to do with the status of games on the Wii, third party garbage, how Nintendo deserves the most sales on the wii because they make the best games, or anything else to do in this thread.

So long as no casual game approaches Zelda, Galaxy, SSBB, or even the "bomb" of MP3 for that matter, then the very idea that Wii owners will just swallow all of this crap from third parties because it's "what they want" is total crap.  That's what this thread is about, not logic-defying blameshift to Nintendo for... making better games and selling more because all those random fickle Wii owners are also somehow diehard Nintendo fans.

(Also, F-Zero GX sold way more than 100,000.  I know you are using VGChartz for this.  And VGchartz said F-Zero GX sold 0 copies in America.  Just looking at this shelf to my right I guess I contributed to infinity percent more sales of F-Zero GX, thus making it the fastest selling game in history.)
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 01, 2010, 11:54:06 PM
You don't have to step in crap to know it stinks.

*sigh* Don't judge a book by its cover. For example, We Cheer? <3

Sales > reviews.

When a game sells that much, chances are people like it.

Ehhh.... maybe. There could be other factors at play here. Though a long slowburn sales period would be helped by good word of mouth, and severely hidnered by bad word of mouth.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Ymeegod on February 02, 2010, 12:15:00 AM
See that's one problem with VGcharts and the others is they continue to count sales even when the product is dropped into the barginbin as the case with Fzero GX.  It sold around 100K during the first two months and the the price dropped right down to freaking $20 or less.  Found my copy for $11.  I think it hit 1/4 million after that. 

And I didn't say BOMB--I said disappointment.  Big N spent more on it than it's other games yet it yeilded the least.  So yeah even Big N said they were a disappointed. 

Most developers would have been happy with 1.5mil, hell jumping for joy but not Big N. 
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 02, 2010, 12:28:08 AM
Quote
See that's one problem with VGcharts and the others is they continue to count sales even when the product is dropped into the barginbin as the case with Fzero GX.  It sold around 100K during the first two months and the the price dropped right down to freaking $20 or less.  Found my copy for $11.  I think it hit 1/4 million after that.

Considering it didn't officially get a price drop until it reached 250,000 in both America and Europe (Player's Choice requirement), I'd say the game has at least sold 6 times the claim of yourself and VGchartz.  Hardly the picture of flop one had hoped.

And don't pretend to know what Nintendo thinks about it.  Just because you assume they're disappointed based on your notion of disappointment, doesn't mean that they are.

Quote
So yeah even Big N said they were a disappointed.

Citation needed.

If Nintendo were really disappointed, they'd sell Retro off.  since they are still working on multiple projects (and since MP3 over sold MP2) I'd imagine Nintendo's quite happy with the ROI on Retro and Metroid Prime in general.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 02, 2010, 12:38:11 AM
Sales > reviews.

When a game sells that much, chances are people like it.

Ehhh.... maybe. There could be other factors at play here.
When I read a review of any game, I always have one question: does this game appeal to the reviewer's tastes? Something like Just Dance is targeting a certain audience, and it seems unlikely that somebody who plays videogames for a living, such as a professional reviewer, is a part of that. Here on NWR, Pap64 gave the game a score of 6.5; he seems like the type of person who enjoys such games, so I'm much more likely to take his word over someone on a site like IGN who HAS to review it for his job.

I'm just not sure if it's fair to claim a game like that to be bad. If it delivers what it promises, and if it is enjoyed by its target audience, can it really be considered bad?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Ymeegod on February 02, 2010, 01:50:32 AM
"If Nintendo were really disappointed, they'd sell Retro off"  They still made a profit but it's not as high as Big N expects.  Iwata made a few comments at 2009 gdc.  Basically he wasn't happy with sales of Music or Animal Forest and both of these games outsold MP3. 

Fzero GX hit the barginbin which counts at total sales but if you look at NPD numbers back then you'll see less than 100K sold during the first two months the rest came after RETAILERS reduced the price.  ED was in the same boat back then.  Both were considered flops even though the reviews were high.  Also why you haven't heard about an upcoming Fzero game--poor sales = discontinued. 

But I think we got astray from the main topic a bit.

Back to topic --Just Dance fails on alot of levels because the CORE game is broken (the controls).  Why pay money for something that doesn't work like it's supposed to?  Why do I even need it in the first place?  I can dance just fine without it and still look like a tool in front of my friends?  So what the catch?  I can get training videos and better music for much less.

Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Ymeegod on February 02, 2010, 01:53:23 AM
"Pap64 gave the game a score of 6.5"  LOL that's a D bud right on the line of F.  Yeah it sounds like he tried to get his groove on but really there's better choices out there DDR anyone?

Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 02, 2010, 01:56:27 AM
"Pap64 gave the game a score of 6.5"  LOL that's a D bud right on the line of F.  Yeah it sounds like he tried to get his groove on but really there's better choices out there DDR anyone?



Note the DDR games have done quite well on Wii so far in spite of charging $70 for it and a pad which is higher than the PS2 games with pads were.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 02, 2010, 02:20:01 AM
Quote
They still made a profit but it's not as high as Big N expects.  Iwata made a few comments at 2009 gdc.  Basically he wasn't happy with sales of Music or Animal Forest and both of these games outsold MP3.

Does not translate into "we are sorely disappointed with Retro bringing in X profit."  This is an inference with no data, just supposition.

Quote
Fzero GX hit the barginbin which counts at total sales but if you look at NPD numbers back then you'll see less than 100K sold during the first two months the rest came after RETAILERS reduced the price.  ED was in the same boat back then.  Both were considered flops even though the reviews were high.  Also why you haven't heard about an upcoming Fzero game--poor sales = discontinued.

You don't have much evidence for Retailers dropping the price other than your own anecdote.  So far it seem like the game slow burnt its way to success and then got a price drop that pushed the title far beyond 100k.

Quote
But I think we got astray from the main topic a bit.

Hey you started it.  We were taking about whether is intellectually consistent for third parties to claim that "Nintendo games overshadow our efforts." And "Core games don't sell on Wii" when the actual games they've made are a 5:1 ratio of Junk to merely decent.  Also whether or not their rampant shovelware has hurt their own reputations, and whether or not they are justified AT ALL to blame Nintendo or to accuse these amorphous children/casual gamers/Nintendo fans for not buying their cheap junk or misguided spinoffry.  Then all of a sudden we're talking about F-Zero GX and Carnival Games Golf being a success at 1 millin and Metroid Prime 3 being a failure at 1.5 million and whether Iwata's going to fire them into the moon because the game sold less than Killzone 2 (no word on whether Sony is disappointed about that game's sales.  took longer and cost way more money.  Eh,  one way street of criticism I guess).

Quote
Back to topic --Just Dance fails on alot of levels because the CORE game is broken (the controls).  Why pay money for something that doesn't work like it's supposed to?  Why do I even need it in the first place?  I can dance just fine without it and still look like a tool in front of my friends?  So what the catch?  I can get training videos and better music for much less.

That's not the topic.  The topic is the third party wall of shame and whether third parties are justified in complaining about low sales when they make really crappy games and mind-boggling spinoff choices in the face of consumer demand, or whether their own sullied reputations are a factor when they try to make something different from the casual games (which appear to not be selling.)

Does anybody think this strategy of flooding the market with garbage was a good idea?  Even though the market and the numbers didn't bear them out?  Does anybody dispute that the third parties deserve their lower sales through bad games, bad reputations, bad marketing, or all three?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 02, 2010, 03:14:04 AM
I think I just found a number of targets to bludgeon to death with my Wii Play copy. It's a great game you fools! Sure, it is no Mario Galaxy, it's a minigame collection and nothing else but there are enough good minigames in this collection to be fully worth the money. Maybe it's the controller that makes it stand out but as a game it has its own merits and I would recommend it to anyone who doesn't own it yet.

Just Dance is their Number 1 game and it's freaking awful yet it'll continue to sell.

Really? I've seen many user reviews that state that once you adjust to the detection method it's a good game and they like it. Those are the reviews you really have to look for: Are the people who bought the game satisfied with it? I've seen cases where professional reviews and user reviews were massively dissonant because the pro reviewers think a lot about aspects the buyers don't give a **** about. Think MaBoShi's high scores, the game was extremely polished and everything but most people hated the gameplay itself.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: D_Average on February 02, 2010, 09:19:16 AM
Come on guys. Do you really have to play every game to know it's crap?  No. This is an impossible standard no one in this thread could keep.  Do you watch every tv show or movie before making some sort of opinion?  Do you eat at every restaurant?  Listen to every album?  Date every girl and/or guy? Try out every religion?  Etc.....
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 02, 2010, 09:33:58 AM
You can assume that something is bad but you'll have to live with that being an assumption, not a fact and it may end up being wrong.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 02, 2010, 09:39:10 AM
It is nice to know that now Wii owners and Nintendo no longer have to shoulder the blame for when a game flops.  It just must have been so unappealing on the surface or from a third party with such a bad reputation that they just knew it was a bad game or a con job at the outset.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 02, 2010, 10:25:47 AM
"Pap64 gave the game a score of 6.5"  LOL that's a D bud right on the line of F.  Yeah it sounds like he tried to get his groove on but really there's better choices out there DDR anyone?

Actually a 6.5 out of 10 is actually above average but nothing special. This isn't a term paper going by grades of 50% equals F.

But I have a totally unrelated question.
Can you or someone define a "Tool" to me?
Ymee just used it up above, MTV has a show focused on it and I've even used the term in the past. But my girl tried to define it to me but I don't think her description is accurate. I just wanna see how all of you might define the term.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 02, 2010, 02:06:29 PM
You can assume that something is bad but you'll have to live with that being an assumption, not a fact and it may end up being wrong.

This.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 02, 2010, 03:38:29 PM
"Pap64 gave the game a score of 6.5"  LOL that's a D bud right on the line of F.  Yeah it sounds like he tried to get his groove on but really there's better choices out there DDR anyone?
That's your opinion. The average consumer isn't so fastidious, and is a lot more open-minded.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: ThePerm on February 02, 2010, 06:50:52 PM
lol Academy Champions Soccer, i know a programmer who worked on that game. Ubisoft used to make less(and better games) what happened?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Ymeegod on February 03, 2010, 03:33:03 PM
"The average consumer isn't so fastidious, and is a lot more open-minded."

And that's the problem with the WII isn't it?  Sure if you never played an game then what are you comparing it to?  Yeah, it's does have the advantage over DDR in terms of pricing but really what does it do that watching MTV doesn't?  I can dance for FREE--hell I'll even send you a video if you like :). 

As for pricedrops, yeah I can tell you because I bought my COPY of FZERO GX two months after release for $17.95 just like I can tell you can buy Deadspace Ext or even Punchout for $20 too.  Hell Sams had Punchout at $9.  I'm all CAG baby, haven't paid full retail price for years. 
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: noname2200 on February 03, 2010, 04:04:28 PM
Yeah, it's does have the advantage over DDR in terms of pricing but really what does it do that watching MTV doesn't?

Play music.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 03, 2010, 05:16:46 PM
Yeah, it's does have the advantage over DDR in terms of pricing but really what does it do that watching MTV doesn't?

Play music.

www.instantrimshot.com
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 03, 2010, 07:45:25 PM
"The average consumer isn't so fastidious, and is a lot more open-minded."

And that's the problem with the WII isn't it?
I don't understand how having a userbase of people who are open-minded and willing to try new things is a problem. It means developers don't have to create a game in a tired genre like a shooter in order for a game to have a chance of selling. No, the problem is the third-party companies who decided to take advantage of these consumers by releasing a flood of poor-quality titles. Their short-sightedness is now starting to blow up in their face.
Title: ~ Electronic Arts ~
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 04, 2010, 12:13:51 AM
Opening post has been updated with...
>> http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=30478.msg581036#msg581036

~ Electronic Arts ~

After looking at so much box art, so much SHAME, I'm beginning to see a uh, uhh... a PATTERN creeping throughout these 3rd Party libraries.

Some select quotes:

=====
[EA]  We polled Core Gamers about Dead Space Extraction...
[Core Gamers]  Don't make a Rail shooter.  We hate rail shooters.  Make a rail shooter and die.
[EA]  And we've found they've said the words "rail shooter" 1,239 times!

=====
[EA]  We understand the Wii audience and we know what Wii gamers want!  This is why we've been able to create such a diverse line-up*!  This line-up is targetted specifically to the Wii audience and the Wii audience that isn't exactly part of the Wii audience!
(*see Wall)

Is there anything more that needs to be said?



Coming Soon...

~ Zoo Games ~
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 04, 2010, 12:29:02 AM
EA's got a few good games there.  But there's also enough crap like Charm Girls Whatever and Littlest Pet Shop to make people wonder if EA has their head on straight. and Overuse of the word "Party"  (Seriously, does this work?  Do they think the word "Party" is why people buy "Mario Party?")

Since EA is all about Branding, does anybody think this lineup of games has helped EA's brand?

Myself, I'm baffled is to why they downplayed Boom Blox's name on the Sequel, shuffling it to the left, and giving the name "Bash Party" more prominence.  There's also the happy fluffy all-play sports crap that hurt sales.

I remember EA Making a big deal about Charm girls Club at last year's E3.  Considering it's a way bigger flop than Dead Space Extraction, can they reach the conclusion that Wii gamers don't like casual shovelware, please?  Because there's way more evidence for that here.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 04, 2010, 01:34:32 AM
69 games...and 7 I am interested in or own. I have 4 of them: Boom Blox 1 & 2, Godfather and Rock Band 2.

The NASCAR game is full of fail on so many levels. My Dad is a big NASCAR fan and owns a Wii. He was telling me how he wanted a NASCAR game with Wii Wheel controls and when I mentioned this as the only thing on the horizon he lost total interest and even seemed offended that people would try to combine Mario Kart (which he loves as well) with NASCAR. Other Wii owners I know who like NASCAR were also appalled by that NASCAR Kart racer game. People who like NASCAR want it to play like NASCAR and items play no part in the sport. One person I know who is a very casual Wii person (first console and all) said something along the lines of 'do they think NASCAR fans like me are dumb? If I want that I'll play Mario Kart. I want NASCAR to play like I'm really racing NASCAR.'
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: that Baby guy on February 04, 2010, 01:48:14 AM
I have that Trivial Pursuit game.  It's virtually no good.  Picture a party game, where everyone watches the screen to know what's going on.  Now picture a text-based solo title, where one person watches the screen.  What's the difference?

It's not entirely obvious, but with the party game, text needs to be big enough that everyone playing can read it on a moderately sized television.  There's not enough space to scoot in.

Also, there wasn't enough customization.  There was a built-in timer, and it couldn't be turned off or lengthened.  Add in that we saw several repeat questions in just a few rounds, and you've got several problems for a console port of a trivia game with a legacy that spans generations.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 04, 2010, 01:55:34 AM
I've also been waiting this ENTIRE generation for a Nascar game. I've never bought one before, but I'm ready for one.

... instead I'll have to settle for an F1 game since Nascar games don't exist for the Wii.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 04, 2010, 02:11:29 AM
I own more EA games for Wii than I ever have for any other console.

TW10
DSE
Smarty pants
EA Sports Active
and the More Workouts Expansion pack

Soon I' likely to have NBA Jam too and TW11 depending on what they do with it.


As far as who's next. Who is Zoo Games? what games have they made that I might know of?

please let THQ be next after Zoo.
I bet they are the most shameful this gen.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 04, 2010, 02:31:57 AM
So maybe me watching numbers and sales and labor percents at work has warped me, but I came up with a percentage of titles that caught my attention and how many times they successfully got me to purchase their products.

          Interest / Actual Sales / Total Titles Published
Ubisoft - 10.6%, 4.5%, 66
Activision - 7.8%, 3.9%, 77
EA - 10.1%, 5.8%, 69
Nintendo - 84.8%, 30.3%, 33*

My collection - 37 games total
Nintendo - 21.6%
EA - 10.8%
Activision - 8.1%
Ubisoft - 8.1%

*Published in NA

Notice the trend here: 66 & 77 & 69 VS. only 33. The 'Big Shameful Three' on The Wall have twice as many titles out as Nintendo does or more. Not only is this pointing out the obvious of 'quality over quantity' but they are cannibalizing their own potential sales by flooding the market with too many games of similar material. Mini/party game a huge culprit; how many of those do you really want to own, anyway, especially when a collection of them come with most people's second remote in WiiPlay?).
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 04, 2010, 04:30:02 AM
The problem with EA Active, More Workouts was the game was released like 5 months after the original.  Which is why it isn't pulling the Wii Fit Plus numbers EA expects.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Urkel on February 04, 2010, 02:24:14 PM
Don't forget that the Nascar Kart racer doesn't have an online mode while MKWii does.
 
EA is lazy and you DO care.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 04, 2010, 04:00:37 PM
The only EA game I own is Boom Blox Bash Party. I bought the first Boom Blox when it was released, but quickly sold it off. There are a few which I'm curious about though, which are Dead Space Extraction, The Godfather, The Simpson Game, Need For Speed Nitro, and maybe the Nerf game. Dunno why.

The NASCAR game is full of fail on so many levels. My Dad is a big NASCAR fan and owns a Wii. He was telling me how he wanted a NASCAR game with Wii Wheel controls and when I mentioned this as the only thing on the horizon he lost total interest and even seemed offended that people would try to combine Mario Kart (which he loves as well) with NASCAR.
It's funny you say that, because I have a friend who is a huge fan of NASCAR, and she loves that game. Have NASCAR games ever been successful anyway? They're so boring, all you do is drive in a complete circle and hope for a spectacular wreck to happen just to make things not mind-numbingly boring.

Nintendo - 84.8%, 30.3%, 33*
Nintendo published just 33 games? I thought they've released a bit more than that. Regardless, for me there are two games they've published that were pretty big disappointments, but that's still a great track record, especially compared to third-parties. There's only one game they've published which I have absolutely no interest in, which is Pokémon Battle Revolution; everything else I plan to get when the price is right.

Myself, I'm baffled is to why they downplayed Boom Blox's name on the Sequel, shuffling it to the left, and giving the name "Bash Party" more prominence.
I'll never understand that, either. When my sister saw the game sitting on my table, she thought it was titled simply "Bash Party" and assumed it was just a generic minigame collection, until I pointed out it was Boom Blox. I doubt she is the only one who glanced at the case without realizing what it was.
Title: ~ Zoo Games ~
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 04, 2010, 09:20:26 PM
Opening post has been updated with...
>> http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=30478.msg581036#msg581036

~ Zoo Games ~

^This^ is what Zoo Games does.  They can't help it, that's their nature.  But all the other publishers on the Wall know better, are better, and can be better.  Why do third party libraries look more like ^this^?  Don't they WANT to make good games?  Laziness is bad (so I hear).

That's all for the Wall for tonight.  Pro Daisy has a headache.



Coming Soon...

~ THQ ~
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 04, 2010, 09:29:59 PM
~Zoo Games~

Actually, I'm not sure if THQ is gonna be worse than that.
There is not even a non shovelware game in the bunch.

On at least half of those games the license probably cost more than the development, and the license didn't cost all that much. I remember seeing a few of this we in the BB Bargain bin for Wii & DS last time I walked through there.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Ymeegod on February 04, 2010, 09:36:49 PM
I can proudly say I don't own a single Zoo game :0.

Well the big three are up--on to the secondaries like THQ, Capcom, Sega next. 
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 04, 2010, 09:42:01 PM
Is that a... cheerleading game?!?!?!

... I own the Sea Monsters game.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 04, 2010, 09:45:03 PM
I really, really like this thread.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Ymeegod on February 04, 2010, 09:46:26 PM
Here's Sega list lowest score to highest:
1. Wii: Daisy Fuentes Pilates (2009) xx
2. Wii: Super Monkey Ball: Step & Roll (2010) xx
3. Wii: Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing (2010) xx
4. Wii: Golden Compass, The (2007) 35
5. Wii: Iron Man (2008) 44
6. Wii: Wacky World Of Sports (2009) 45
7. Wii: Incredible Hulk, The (2008) 46
8. Wii: Alien Syndrome (2007) 48
9. Wii: Sonic and the Black Knight (2009) 54
10. Wii: Planet 51 (2009) 55
11. Wii: Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity (2008) 56
12. Wii: Jambo! Safari: Animal Rescue (2009) 56
13. Wii: Bleach: Shattered Blade (2007) 58
14. Wii: Sega Bass Fishing (2008) 59
15. Wii: Let's Catch (2009) 63
16. Wii: House of the Dead 2 & 3 Return (2008) 66
17. Wii: Sonic Unleashed (2008) 66
18. Wii: Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games (2007) 67
19. Wii: Nancy Drew: The White Wolf of Icicle Creek (2008) 67
20. Wii: Samba De Amigo (2008) 68
21. Wii: Sonic and the Secret Rings (2007) 69
22. Wii: NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams (2007) 69
23. Wii: Ghost Squad (2007) 69
24. Wii: Conduit, The (2009) 69
25. Wii: Let's Tap (2009) 70
26. Wii: Sega Superstars Tennis (2008) 71
27. Wii: Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games (2009) 72
28. Wii: Virtua Tennis 2009 (2009) 73
29. Wii: Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz (2006) 74
30. Wii: House of the Dead: Overkill, The (2009) 78
31. Wii: MadWorld (2009) 81
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 04, 2010, 09:49:31 PM
God I love Alien Syndrome.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Ymeegod on February 04, 2010, 09:52:10 PM
Capcom's list (which is actually pretty decent compare to the others anyhow:
1. Wii: Monster Hunter Tri (2010) xx
2. Wii: Moto GP 08 (2009) 44
3. Wii: Neopets Puzzle Adventure (2008) 52
4. Wii: Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law (2008) 60
5. Wii: Dead Rising: Chop Till You Drop (2009) 61
6. Wii: Resident Evil Archives: Resident Evil Zero (2009) 62
7. Wii: Spyborgs (2009) 65
8. Wii: Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney (2010) 67
9. Wii: Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles (2007) 75
10. Wii: We Love Golf! (2008) 75
11. Wii: Resident Evil: The Darkside Chronicles (2009) 75
12. Wii: Resident Evil Archives: Resident Evil (2009) 76
13. Wii: Mega Man 9 (2008) 83
14. Wii: Tatsunoko vs. Capcom: Ultimate All-Stars (2010) 85
15. Wii: Zack & Wiki: Quest for Barbaros' Treasure (2007) 87
16. Wii: Okami (2008) 90
17. Wii: Resident Evil 4 Wii Edition (2007) 91
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Ymeegod on February 04, 2010, 10:01:16 PM
THQ--god I can't believe they released that many:
1. Wii: Bratz: The Movie (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/bratzthemovie?q=thq) (2007) xx
2. Wii: Cars Mater-National (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/carsmaternational?q=thq) (2007) xx
3. Wii: SpongeBob's Atlantis SquarePantis (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/spongebobsatlantissquarepantis?q=thq) (2007) xx
4. Wii: All Star Cheer Squad (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/allstarcheersquad?q=thq) (2008) xx
5. Wii: Rock University Presents: The Naked Brothers Band - The Video Game (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/rockuniversitypresentsthenaked?q=thq) (2008) xx
6. Wii: Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader? Make the Grade (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/areyousmartermakethegrade?q=thq) (2008) xx
7. Wii: Bratz Girlz Really Rock (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/bratzgirlzreallyrock?q=thq) (2008) xx
8. Wii: Gallop & Ride! (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/gallopandride?q=thq) (2008) xx
9. Wii: Paws & Claws: Pet Resort (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/pawsandclawspetresort?q=thq) (2009) xx
10. Wii: Merv Griffin's Crosswords (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/mervgriffinscrosswords?q=thq) (2008) xx
11. Wii: All Star Cheer Squad 2 (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/allstarcheersquad2?q=thq) (2009) xx
12. Wii: SpongeBob's Truth or Square (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/spongebobstruthorsquare?q=thq) (2009) xx
13. Wii: World of Zoo (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/worldofzoo?q=thq) (2009) xx
14. Wii: Are You Smarter Than A 5th Grader? Game Time (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/areyousmarterthana5thgradergametime?q=thq) (2009) xx
15. Wii: Big Beach Sports (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/bigbeachsports?q=thq) (2008) 44
16. Wii: SpongeBob SquarePants featuring NickToons: Globs of Doom (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/spongebobsquarepantsnicktoonsglobs?q=thq) (2008) 47 17. Wii: Neighborhood Games (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/neighborhoodgames?q=thq) (2009) 49
18. Wii: Marvel Super Hero Squad (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/marvelsuperherosquad?q=thq) (2009) 49
19. Wii: WALL-E (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/walle?q=thq) (2008) 51
20. Wii: Destroy All Humans! Big Willy Unleashed (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/destroyallhumansbigwillyunleashed?q=thq) (2008) 53
21. Wii: Avatar: The Last Airbender - Into the Inferno (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/avatarthelastairbenderintotheinferno?q=thq) (2008) 53
22. Wii: Avatar: The Last Airbender (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/avatarthelastairbender?q=thq) (2006) 56
23. Wii: SpongeBob SquarePants: Creature from the Krusty Krab (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/spongebobsquarepantscreature?q=thq) (2006) 57
24. Wii: Avatar: The Last Airbender - The Burning Earth (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/avatartheburningearth?q=thq) (2007) 58
25. Wii: Battle of the Bands (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/battleofthebands?q=thq) (2008) 58
26. Wii: Drawn to Life: The Next Chapter (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/drawntolifethenextchapter?q=thq) (2009) 58
27. Wii: Cars Race-O-Rama (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/carsraceorama?q=thq) (2009) 58
28. Wii: WWE SmackDown! vs. RAW 2008 (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/wwesmackdownvsraw2008?q=thq) (2007) 59
29. Wii: Nicktoons: Attack of the Toybots (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/nicktoonsattackofthetoybots?q=thq) (2007) 60
30. Wii: Ratatouille (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/ratatouille?q=thq) (2007) 62
31. Wii: Up (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/up?q=thq) (2009) 62
32. Wii: Tak and the Guardians of Gross (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/takandtheguardiansofgross?q=thq) (2008) 63
33. Wii: Worms: A Space Oddity (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/wormsaspaceoddity?q=thq) (2008) 64
34. Wii: Barnyard (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/barnyard?q=thq) (2006) 65
35. Wii: Cars (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/cars?q=thq) (2006) 65
36. Wii: MX vs. ATV Untamed (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/mxvsatvuntamed?q=thq) (2008) 70
37. Wii: Deadly Creatures (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/deadlycreatures?q=thq) (2009) 72
38. Wii: Biggest Loser, The (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/biggestloser?q=thq) (2009) 74
39. Wii: WWE SmackDown vs. Raw 2010 (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/wwesmackdownvsraw2010?q=thq) (2009) 78
40. Wii: WWE SmackDown vs. RAW 2009 (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/wwesmackdownvsraw2009?q=thq) (2008) 79
41. Wii: de Blob (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/deblob?q=thq) (2008) 82

Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 04, 2010, 10:10:47 PM
Well, Zoo Games has a smaller list, but almost everything on it seems of questionable quality.

I own two of those games. One is Groovin' Blocks, which is most certainly not shovelware. It is on WiiWare too, and it's a pretty good game. The other is M&M's Kart Racing, which was given to me, and is one of the worst games I've played in a good long while.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 04, 2010, 11:04:06 PM
Inspired, I put together my own Wall of Games I Own.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v180/TheUncleBob/all.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v180/TheUncleBob/all.jpg)

I'm sure it looks pretty darn close to what the finished Nintendo wall will look like... Third Parties hate me.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 04, 2010, 11:18:12 PM
What on EARF are those lists?  This isn't the `Pathetic Gaming Media Opinon Numbers Scoreboard.`  The gaming press are well disconnected from the masses; that much is common knowledge.  We're not interested in the press.

Get that **** out of here.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 04, 2010, 11:19:55 PM
Hey uhhh, if I may ask what the hell are you people doing?

Pro goes through a lot of work to make these montage collages.  The reason why Pro didn't make a LIST is because it doesn't have the same visual impact as seeing it in the store.  That's why the thread isn't called the "3rd Party List of Shame."  Nobody made any of you his deputy.

EDIT: About Zoo Games, Pro's got a pretty good point about how that shovelware master has a wall that looks surprisingly like a few games on the major publishers.  Don't third parties care about their own names?  Jeez.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Infernal Monkey on February 04, 2010, 11:26:34 PM
LISTS? LISTS!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA LIFT OFF

(http://i46.tinypic.com/9uvtit.jpg)(http://i46.tinypic.com/9uvtit.jpg)(http://i46.tinypic.com/9uvtit.jpg)(http://i46.tinypic.com/9uvtit.jpg)(http://i46.tinypic.com/9uvtit.jpg)(http://i46.tinypic.com/9uvtit.jpg)
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: A Straight Up Trippin' Balls Forum User on February 04, 2010, 11:40:40 PM
Ningurl mad at people disrupting his thread  ;D
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 04, 2010, 11:42:50 PM
I'm sure it looks pretty darn close to what the finished Nintendo wall will look like... Third Parties hate me.
The question is though, could third-parties have released something that would've interested you?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 04, 2010, 11:50:24 PM
The more non-sekwiter awful lists I see, the more PIRATES I shall summon.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 04, 2010, 11:53:08 PM
Well, we can't blame Zoo for shovelware much like we can't blame a dog for licking its own balls.

and maybe the Nerf game. Dunno why.

I think a modern Nerf FPS could be interesting, something more realistic than Arena Blast though. Maybe on par with MW2 in realism (not completely nuts like ArmA or so, just enough to feel like a real Nerf fight). Sure, you could go out and do a real life Nerf war but have you seen the price tags on some of these guns?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 05, 2010, 12:51:55 AM
Order Up and Groovin Blocks were reviewed well. Everything else...

M&Ms Adventure? Remember when we got cool mascot games like Cool Spot? I recall that being a decent platformer.

Infernal Monkey still posts here?! Since when?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 05, 2010, 01:00:44 AM
Since Pro used some mana to summon him like Bahamut.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 05, 2010, 05:43:55 PM
Some of you are mean, mean people...

I'm sure it looks pretty darn close to what the finished Nintendo wall will look like... Third Parties hate me.
The question is though, could third-parties have released something that would've interested you?

I can't honestly say.  Two of the 3rd party games were gifts, one was bought at full price (GH3) and one was bought via Amazon super-cheap.  If I had it to do over again, I probably wouldn't have got GH3.

Looking over my GCN collection (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=14517.msg205500;topicseen#msg205500), I have 57 (unique) titles.  22 are 3rd party games - about 40%.  Have my tastes changed that much?  Or are third parties just not getting my attention?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 05, 2010, 06:11:00 PM
Remember when we got cool mascot games like Cool Spot? I recall that being a decent platformer.
A friend of mine had that for the Sega Genesis. I recall liking it, though I can't remember anything specific about it. Honestly, I don't really understand where these licence games come from. Are there people out there who like M&M's and make some sort of connection that a game based on their favourite candy would be fun?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 05, 2010, 06:13:31 PM
Remember when we got cool mascot games like Cool Spot? I recall that being a decent platformer.
A friend of mine had that for the Sega Genesis. I recall liking it, though I can't remember anything specific about it. Honestly, I don't really understand where these licence games come from. Are there people out there who like M&M's and make some sort of connection that a game based on their favourite candy would be fun?

I love playing Monopoly.
My in-laws got me some M&M edition Monopoly for Christmas.  I had to pretend like I liked it.  Seriously?  I mean, I know they tried and all, but yeah, that's such a weird license to make games off of.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 05, 2010, 06:18:46 PM
What were the properties in the M&M's Monopoly? Were they the various colours and types of M&M's candy?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: A Straight Up Trippin' Balls Forum User on February 05, 2010, 06:22:05 PM
Funny you should mention that.. apparently M&M is a long-running smash-hit Wii franchise

Quote
Oct. 23: Napoleon Dynamite from Crave Entertainment
>2004...

Oct. 30: Dr. Seuss: How the Grinch™ Stole Christmas from DSI Games
>2000...

Oct. 19: Betty Boop's™ "Double Shift" from DSI Games
>1930s...

M&M'S® Kart Racing from DSI Games
>??

I know third parties shamelessly flood the shelves with movie/tv tie-ins, but seriously did DSI and Crave just wander around blockbuster for game ideas?

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=22636.msg377863#msg377863 (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=22636.msg377863#msg377863)

Third parties wasted no time in erecting that wall.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 05, 2010, 06:25:08 PM
http://www.etailgifts.com/images/mms.jpg (http://www.etailgifts.com/images/mms.jpg)

It's hard to tell from the picture, but the properties are replaced with "ads" from various times in the M&M lifespan.

Yeah...
Title: ~ THQ ~
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 05, 2010, 11:00:54 PM
Opening post has been updated with...
>> http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=30478.msg581036#msg581036

~ THQ ~

THQ, you've gone thru some tough times... NOW I CAN SEE WHY.  You are oh-so-dependent on your licenses; the rest your efforts (and lack of) can be summed up as "make-believe," or "wishful thinking."  Should've been making things happen instead of dreaming?

I think I was a bit generous with ^this^ Wall piece, though I'm unable to articulate how it is so.  By now I believe we've established a template for generating a 3rd Party Wii game library.  Such is herein as follows per justice:

1.  Start off with Zoo Games' Wii library.
2.  Add a handful of "major" "licenses."
3.  Add at least one "major" semi-"original" "brand" or "property."
4.  Microwave on HIGH for 9 minutes.
5.  Let stand in microwave for 1 minute.  Be careful when handling, turds may be steaming hot.

TA-DA!!  3RD PARTY SUPPORT!



Coming Soon...

~ Majesco ~
Title: ~ Majesco ~
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 05, 2010, 11:37:17 PM
Opening post has been updated with...
>> http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=30478.msg581036#msg581036

~ Majesco ~

I'd like to think of Majesco as an "underdog" company, but their library makes them look like any other 3rd party, just on a smaller scale.

Can you find the needle in this haystack?

Will the pain stop?



Coming Soon...

~ EVERYONE ELSE? ~
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: A Straight Up Trippin' Balls Forum User on February 05, 2010, 11:40:10 PM
I laughed, facepalmed, then cried at the Cold Stone game... but FIVE Spongebob games?  :'(

You know what can make this situation better?


3d glasses
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 05, 2010, 11:42:27 PM
In some stores there's even a special sticker for marking down THQ shovelware...
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 06, 2010, 01:22:09 AM
Remember when we got cool mascot games like Cool Spot? I recall that being a decent platformer.
A friend of mine had that for the Sega Genesis. I recall liking it, though I can't remember anything specific about it. Honestly, I don't really understand where these licence games come from. Are there people out there who like M&M's and make some sort of connection that a game based on their favourite candy would be fun?

I read a review for the M&Ms adventure game on Amazon that talked about how the person was a long time M&Ms collector so that was why he bought it primarily but he had also hoped for a cute Super Mario Brothers clone and was sorely dissapointed in how the game actually played. There were even some reviews where parents mentioned their children (of all sorts of ages) found the game to frustration and difficult to play. It failed at hitting any target market right.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 06, 2010, 12:53:15 PM
Good ol' THQ. They've put out a few gems over their many years of existence, but they also published quite a few questionable games as well. Of their Wii games, I own just de Blob and think it's a great game. The only other one of theirs I'm interested in trying is Deadly Creatures. Looking at the wall with no knowledge of those two games, I doubt I'd be able to pick them out as something I'd want to buy.

From Majesco, I have Cooking Mama World Kitchen, which is an adorable little game. A Boy and His Blob is about the only game there I plan to buy, though I'm kind of curious about Blast Works. I don't think I would want the other Cooking Mama game as it looks pretty similar.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: MoronSonOfBoron on February 06, 2010, 01:43:58 PM
I love how we have an entire thread devoted to Kairon's porn stash.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 06, 2010, 03:14:17 PM
Kairon is helping to bring about the second gaming crash.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 06, 2010, 05:25:39 PM
I love how we have an entire thread devoted to Kairon's porn stash.

Maybe you can help it keep going. Go grab a random Wii game from his collection and tell us who it is made by, and then we can add that company to the Wall of Shame too.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Caliban on February 06, 2010, 07:17:55 PM
This [3rd Party Wall of Shame] is why I think the Nintendo Seal of Quality should come back. If a 3rd party game is good it gets the Nintendo Seal of Quality. People see the Nintendo Seal of Quality and they will buy the good 3rd party games. Publishers are somewhat happy now because they too can sell games... as long as a Nintendo Seal of Quality is on the cover.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 06, 2010, 07:26:25 PM
That seal is still there on the back of every game case, but all it means is the same as it has always meant: the game is licenced to run on Nintendo's system without causing problems, such as crashing it, wiping save data, etc.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 06, 2010, 07:34:43 PM
Yes and no.

The seal is no longer a "Seal of Quality" - merely the "Official Nintendo Seal".  As you said, it means the same thing either way.

Perhaps, what is needed, is a "This item is Licensed and Approved by Nintendo" and a "This item meets Nintendo's standards of quality".  But third parties would cry at having to submit their titles for judging by Nintendo.  And hard core fans would have fits if Wii Music was considered to meet any kind of quality standards.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: ShyGuy on February 06, 2010, 07:44:52 PM
Wow, EA is probably the best of the 3rd parties out there, but I recuse myself from judging their sports games. About five decent games, wouldn't mind trying 2-3 more.

Zoo is just hideous. HIDEOUS

THQ has deadly creatures and.... uh..... welp.

edit: Okay, maybe THQ has 3 more games that I would try.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 06, 2010, 07:50:40 PM
And hard core fans would have fits if Wii Music was considered to meet any kind of quality standards.

Let them cry.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: noname2200 on February 06, 2010, 07:56:22 PM
I'm calling it. Unless Nintendo moneyhats extensively, the Wall o' Shame is just going to grow even crappier.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 06, 2010, 08:11:07 PM
You want growth?  I'll give you GROWTH
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: noname2200 on February 06, 2010, 08:18:06 PM
You want growth?  I'll give you GROWTH

No need, your boys in the OP have got it covered.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 06, 2010, 08:18:42 PM
And hard core fans would have fits if Wii Music was considered to meet any kind of quality standards.

Let them cry.

LET THEM CRY.  THEIR TEARS ONLY MAKE THE BLUE OCEAN DEEPER.
Title: ~ THE REST OF THE PILE ~
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 06, 2010, 08:24:14 PM
Opening post has been updated with...
>> http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=30478.msg581036#msg581036

~ Sega ~

HRMMMMMMMMMMM... The least bad of the worst, if that's anything to brag about.  Sega tries, yet they don't.  Their most successful title(s) are actually Wii Sports derivatives.  Huh.


~ Konami ~

Got your bread & butter song & dance titles, plus some footsie ball.  Beyond those, Konami wants to be known for Wii Sports knockoffs, intentional kiddeh titles, and TARGET TERRORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.  The plan was to make more of that stuff in case any of them succeeded, apparently.  Typically.  Unsurprisingly.  As usual.  Dammit, 3rd Parties.

This is the family Silent Hill: Shattered Memories was born into?


~ Take Two ~

Way to go, relying on sports license abuse that competes with EA's own.  The rest are largely vistors from the PLANET MEH.  Do any games seem to be worth working on or nurturing without those Grand Theft Auto-sized budgets?  Hmm?


~ Namco-Bandai ~

Despite hitting the ground running with a WAGGLE SPINOFF, it's suprising they haven't done much (nor localized much).  They're sorta all over the place without specializing in anything (is Zoo Games the undisputed KING of Wii racing games?).  A peculiar kind of lazy.


~ Capcom ~

good port, rail shooter, bad port, old port, old port, rail shooter, old port, stuff stuff stuff... oh my gosh, is Capcom lazier than NAMCO?


~ Square-Enix ~

1.  An on-rails spinoff NINTENDO MADE FOR THEM
2.  Some other spinoff
3.  A DEE-ESS PORT OF A SPINOFF
4.  A too-little-too-late spinoff of a SPINOFF

It's obvious that Square-Enix... DOESN'T GIVE A ****.



Salvation...?

~ The Nintendo Wall of Glory ~
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: broodwars on February 06, 2010, 08:39:25 PM
Actually, looking over the output from Square-Enix and Capcom, they don't come off all that badly (or to put it more precisely "they come off better than everyone else in this topic").  As for Square-Enix, I don't see any "bad" games in there.  I've played both Dragon Quest Swords and Chocobo's Mystery Dungeon, and they're both good games.  I've never played Echoes of Time or Crystal Bearers, but they both reviewed at least decently from what I remember. 
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: ShyGuy on February 06, 2010, 08:47:36 PM
Majesco is sadly crap. I BLAME KAIRON

Hmm, Sega has some decent titles in the mix about 5-6 good ones.

Some one needs to put Konami out of their misery.

Take Two has Bully and.... a lot of meh to ugh. Heavy on the ugh.

Namco-Bandia has more than I figured, about 3-4.

Capcom probably has the best good to crap ratio, but they don't seem to make shovelware. Instead they make ports!

Square Enix is the Dragon Quest/Final Fantasy company. They refuse to do anything else.

Hey Pro! What about 3rd parties that already died and joined a borg collective? like Sierra and Vivendi and Tecmo and I can't keep them all straight. Also, who published Ninjabread Man?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: broodwars on February 06, 2010, 08:52:13 PM
I'm actually surprised that Square-Enix hasn't used the Wii as a testing ground for franchises they don't do much with, like Valkyrie Profile; Suikoden; and Ogre Battle.  They can make a sequel to any of those franchise for relatively little money on Wii and probably get a decent turnaround while keeping the IPs fresh.  Hell, I'm still amazed they've yet to take advantage of the Wii audience and put ****ing Kingdom Hearts on the Wii.  It never made sense that they never put that series on the GameCube, and it makes even less sense that they haven't brought it to the Wii.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 06, 2010, 08:56:50 PM
Well, Ogre Battle 64 has been rated in both PAL and NA regions so maybe when that comes out and if it sells well we will see a new one on Wii?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: broodwars on February 06, 2010, 08:58:23 PM
Well, Ogre Battle 64 has been rated in both PAL and NA regions so maybe when that comes out and if it sells well we will see a new one on Wii?

One can only hope, and if so we'd better see one in the style of OB64.  None of that "Tactics" BS, thank you very much.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Nemo on February 06, 2010, 09:00:09 PM

~ Square-Enix ~

1.  An on-rails spinoff NINTENDO MADE FOR THEM

ummm... what?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 06, 2010, 09:08:54 PM
Actually, looking over the output from Square-Enix and Capcom, they don't come off all that badly (or to put it more precisely "they come off better than everyone else in this topic").  As for Square-Enix, I don't see any "bad" games in there.  I've played both Dragon Quest Swords and Chocobo's Mystery Dungeon, and they're both good games.  I've never played Echoes of Time or Crystal Bearers, but they both reviewed at least decently from what I remember.

The games, by themselves, not bad.  But also consider how the publisher behaved; how are they treating the projects and the products?

DQ Swords -- S-E borrowed a Nintendo developer to make it (was the project not good enough for their own teams?)
Chocobo -- nothing wrong here, it just exists
Echoes of Time -- the ugly side of connectivity:  it's a DS game, but on a disc.  Who's it REALLY for?  Wii gamers or DS gamers?  Who are they trying to convince to buy it, and are they trying?
The Crystal Bears -- Decent game (i'll vouch for it), but like Silent Hill, it's a victim of scheduling and marketing SABOTAGE.  What happened to the marketing push?  Is it just another title quietly sent to the shelf that the publisher doesn't believe in?

And moving from one title to the latter, how well is S-E's [Wii] brand strength holding up by the time it gets to Crystal Bearers?

Things to think about.  The fact they've only published 4 disc games total, despite their age/history and prestige, also makes them an oddity worth mentioning.



~ Square-Enix ~

1.  An on-rails spinoff NINTENDO MADE FOR THEM

ummm... what?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Quest_Swords

DQS was co-developed by Genius Sonority and 8ing.  Genius Sonority is a company founded by Nintendo to develop Pokemon titles; its major shareholders include Nintendo and The Pokemon Company.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 06, 2010, 09:11:53 PM
The seal is no longer a "Seal of Quality" - merely the "Official Nintendo Seal".  As you said, it means the same thing either way.
I forgot that they changed it, probably because of the liability reasons of having a seal of quality that isn't actually based on quality.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: that Baby guy on February 06, 2010, 09:13:00 PM
Let's not forget, Chocobo's Dungeon loses some of the depth included in a previous iteration, removing 2-player co-op, and utilizing a more generic dungeon system.  Their support has been lacking.  With Square-Enix, I would have at least expected some ports of some PS2 titles with Wii-Remote controls shoe-horned in, as well as sequels announced when those titles would have likely sold well.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 06, 2010, 09:20:47 PM
I'm done with this wall.  So long, everyone.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: broodwars on February 06, 2010, 09:30:44 PM
Things to think about.  The fact they've only published 4 disc games total, despite their age/history and prestige, also makes them an oddity worth mentioning.

With the exception of the handhelds, though, Square-Enix hasn't had a huge presence on any platform this generation so the output seems pretty typical of them.  Sure, they have big projects in development on the HD consoles still (The other two Final Fantasy XIII games for example, and probably a Kingdom Hearts game somewhere down the road) and Dragon Quest X on the Wii, but for the most part they've been pretty conservative and quiet lately.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 06, 2010, 09:31:49 PM
You can't leave The Wall. It never lets it's victims go.

Well, Ogre Battle 64 has been rated in both PAL and NA regions so maybe when that comes out and if it sells well we will see a new one on Wii?

One can only hope, and if so we'd better see one in the style of OB64.  None of that "Tactics" BS, thank you very much.

The OB64 control system would work amazingly well with the Wii's IR input.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: ShyGuy on February 06, 2010, 09:34:24 PM
This is an epic that will stand along side the outstanding walls of history. The Great Wall of China. The Berlin Wall. The Wailing Wall. and Now, the 3rd Party Wall of Shame. GAZE IN WONDER
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 06, 2010, 09:38:51 PM
I gaze in horror and shame that during my time a great travesty occurred and I did nothing to try and stop it. Doing nothing is just as bad as supporting the growing beast.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: broodwars on February 06, 2010, 09:44:11 PM
I gaze in horror and shame that during my time a great travesty occurred and I did nothing to try and stop it. Doing nothing is just as bad as supporting the growing beast.

Well, I can certainly say I did my part to stop it: I largely ignored the 3rd parties and only bought the games I truly thought could be worthwhile (with only Madworld and The Conduit standing as games I really wish I hadn't bought).
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 06, 2010, 09:54:55 PM
Let's see...

-Sega-
It doesn't look like Sega's support is bad at a glance, but, well, their titles haven't seemed to review well. Still, at least they made an attempt...
I own six of these which are the two House of the Dead games, MadWorld, The Conduit, Sonic and the Secret Rings, and Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games.
I'm interested in trying the other Sonic games, Samba De Amigo, and Nights, and am definitely getting Mario and Sonic at the Winter Olympics at some point.

-Konami-
What's Deca Sports doing there? I thought that was Hudson.
I own just one of those, Elebits, which I really enjoyed. I'm interesting in trying Dewey's Adventure and Silent Hill, and that's about it.

-Take Two-
I have none of these, and the only one which I want to try is Bully. I played Carnival Games and liked it, but since my friend has it I feel no need to buy it myself.

-Namco-
I have none of these either, but want to try a few. I guess Nintendo published Mario Super Sluggers and not Namco?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: A Straight Up Trippin' Balls Forum User on February 06, 2010, 09:59:04 PM
I gaze in horror and shame that during my time a great travesty occurred and I did nothing to try and stop it. Doing nothing is just as bad as supporting the growing beast.

Customers shouldn't have to. What happened to those people that used to interview other people, report the news, or ask a lot of questions stuff?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 06, 2010, 11:01:49 PM
This is a great testament that will live on through the ages.

What's funny to note about the "better" 3rd parties on the list, like Sega and Capcom, is that they still dipped into shovelware/casual territory at least once, and had bad sales and poor reviews to show for it.  Namco, instead of localizing quality games, decided to make a Food Network game that bombs.

And even Capcom falls into the awful game trap of making a game based of a Television Show nobody watched and a game about pets (Neo-pets, that is.  Thankfully no "Z").  They look completely incompetent.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Urkel on February 06, 2010, 11:05:21 PM
What happened to those people that used to interview other people, report the news, or ask a lot of questions stuff?

They don't believe there's anything to be questioned. They bought the official 3rd party excuses hook, line, and sinker. (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=30562.msg583428#msg583428)
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 06, 2010, 11:30:28 PM
Yeah it's internalizing the messages of your abusers.  You see this a lot in bullied kids and rape victims.  Instead of thinking about the actual problem, being bullied/raped and the perpetrators involved, they begin to question themselves and adapt their behavior so as to appease the bullies.  It's an attitude supported by bullies because their targets will take all of the blame, the solution rests on their victim, and they do not have to accept any effort made by the victim.

Or, case in point, long editorials about Wii gamers and their habits, who they are, what they are, their behavior, what they should be doing, buying, etc. instead of even casting one critical eye at the third parties who are the ones exhibiting the bad behavior.  That's why they pull that sour-grapes attitude when people just stop buying their garbage.  As long as they can keep the focus on the Wii gamers, nobody has to look at their shoddy libraries.

And its pretty stunning how tasteful the Wii audience is.  For all this talk of shovelware selling on the Wii, there really isn't any evidence of it beyond a few titles from the naive years of 2007.  Apparently they aren't as stupid as the third parties or detractors thought, and they have made the best games the best sellers by their choices.  They should really be commended, but instead they are reviled for not being easy marks.  More's the pity.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 07, 2010, 12:14:50 AM
I'm done with this wall.  So long, everyone.

Really? I've seen tons of shovelware that didn't show up, did you forget some publishers or just ignore them?

-Konami-
What's Deca Sports doing there? I thought that was Hudson.

Konami owns Hudson, I guess they publish their games too. Though looking at Amazon I see a few Hudson-Konami titles missing from the wall (Hard Working People, Kororinpa). Games like LittleKing's Story also seem unaccounted for.

Here in Germany we have Koch Media (http://www.amazon.de/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?__mk_de_DE=%C5M%C5Z%D5%D1&url=search-alias%3Dvideogames-wii&field-keywords=Koch&x=0&y=0)who localize many games from other companies but also seem to have things that are not listed on the wall.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 07, 2010, 12:21:55 AM
I thing Pro just really needs a break from the brick laying.

But there is still lots of material left out there for the wall.
I don't see why someone else can't put a little effort into putting up a company they think is deserving.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 07, 2010, 02:07:07 AM
Quote
Really? I've seen tons of shovelware that didn't show up, did you forget some publishers or just ignore them?

I think Pro's point is not to catalog the entire Wii library but merely to focus on the big players who have the capacity to make better games and choose not to.  We're talking about the people with the infrastructure to get considerable product to retail.  Sure, he had Zoo publishing, but he purposefully sought out a shovelware company to show that this is what the major players look like.  I'm sure companies like Conspiracy Entertainment and D3Publisher also have some horrible games, but they aren't the ones who pledged to make better Wii games or pretend they know the Wii audience,  Like you said, can't blame a dog for licking its balls, right?  They also don't blame Nintendo for anything.

I also don't think he's very concerned with Eastern Shovelware because we're more likely to see Western shovelware and are less likely to stock Eastern shovelware like D3 Publisher and such.  Also, one developer and publisher is totally off the hook.  Marvelous, because their games are actually very good and decent.  (No more Heroes, Rune Factory, Muramasa, Arc Rise Fantasia, etc.  This is good effort, period.)  If anything, they actually would have a legitimate complaint against the Wii for their games underperforming.  But even so, only recently did they turn their sights to better game development, as before the DS they were in the same boat as THQ, where they had massive piles of uninteresting games save for one series that stood out (Harvest Moon.)  It takes time to give yourself a new image.  Over time and through consistency, good word-of-mouth spreads, but you can't pull up stakes after the first disappointment.  That's what that Conan O' Briend kerfuffle was all about.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: A Straight Up Trippin' Balls Forum User on February 07, 2010, 12:57:47 PM
What happened to those people that used to interview other people, report the news, or ask a lot of questions stuff?

They don't believe there's anything to be questioned. They bought the official 3rd party excuses hook, line, and sinker. (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=30562.msg583428#msg583428)

Then what's left? Writing a Petition/Notice of Third Party Probation and going viral?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 07, 2010, 10:42:23 PM
I love how we have an entire thread devoted to Kairon's porn stash.

Maybe you can help it keep going. Go grab a random Wii game from his collection and tell us who it is made by, and then we can add that company to the Wall of Shame too.

Jest all you want, but I'm PROUD of my Wii gaming stash, and each game was purchased with direct intent to own it. I haven't counted recently, but I may own more than 60 Wii games, most of them third-party, and maybe less than five of which I will admit to entertaining some regret at buying. (Though i will admit surprise that I've become part and parcel to the hardcore gamer stereotype of buying so many games that I can't find the time to play them all.)
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 08, 2010, 01:17:50 AM
I know what you mean, Kairon. I have a number of games I have bought and not played, some are even still sealed! I've yet to try Muramasa and Crystal Bearers among other games. And I keep buying more. I even have WiiWare and VC games I've yet to play even once and a good deal have only been played a single time!...  :-\ ???

I think part of it is my desire to support good 3rd party games and want to keep seeing them come to Wii. One of these days I will find time to play them all and I hope I don't finish them all only to discover no more were made. It's also why I tend to prioritize non-Nintendo purchases since I know that the shelf life of most Nintendo games is much longer than others.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Pale on February 08, 2010, 06:20:07 AM
I didn't read this thread except for the first sentence that called me out.

For the record, I wasn't claiming that there wasn't enough negativity on these boards.  What I was claiming was that there are too many damn threads that discuss how great/not great the Wii platform is in the most general sense. This is the kind of garbage that is tired in my opinion as it's been discussed to death. I don't care anymore.

So this thread fails too. Keep trying.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Pale on February 08, 2010, 06:21:39 AM
Also, I'm officially voiding the decision to make this a sticky.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: SixthAngel on February 08, 2010, 09:55:08 AM
I didn't even realize this thread was here until you unstickied it.  I had only come here from links in other threads.  My mind just automatically blocks out all stickies on message boards because they all invariably say rules or other boring crap.
I suggest you read more than the first sentence next time before you call a thread fail though.

I don't think Sega's list is so bad.  I'm glad they ported their big light gun games because they are good and the only ones that actually let me use no cursor.  Mad World and The Conduit are pretty good too.  The rest is essentially Sonic games.

I notice a a trend throughout the list.  Many of these games seem to be simple advertisements with no attempt to actually make a game people buy.  Coldstone, M&Ms, a ridculous number of car brand games, all the tv shows that don't fit into a videogame format in the slightest.  Burger Kings obvious ad games were less obvious and probably better than these ads.  I understand Avatar and SpongeBob but Hell's Kitchen?  Really?

A few questions.  Why is there a Drawn to Life game on the Wii?  It was designed to be a drawing game on a system with stylus.  Why do 3rd parties think the word "party" helps sell their game?  It is generally used on minigame collections but they even use it when the first one did well.  I thought the one game was called Bash Party until I recognized the Boom Blox animals.  If I see party I pass it buy (even Mario Party).

I get the feeling a lot of this crap is their to purposefully hurt other 3rd parties.  One of the big reaons for releasing so much crap is that they want to choke out the competition from starting anything  big on the system.  Once the big companies decided not to really go into the Wii they decided to go with quick and easy crap that could make some money if they get lucky and would immediately bury any little guy making a game under a pile of ****.  Lucky for them they didn't have to worry about this either since nobody stepped up.
How was a small developer supposed to be a success in this environment?  Think about it.  Besides the fact that they would have to rely on the very publishers who are committing this travesty to publish their game they then have to fight through piles of crap that actually have better connections with the retail outlets probably giving them more copies and shelf space.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: vudu on February 08, 2010, 11:30:37 AM
~ Capcom ~

good port, rail shooter, bad port, old port, old port, rail shooter, old port, stuff stuff stuff... oh my gosh, is Capcom lazier than NAMCO?
Did you just call Zack & Wiki an old port?!
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 08, 2010, 11:37:57 AM
No.  TREASURE ISLAND Z counts as "stuff."  OKAMI is old refuse.  Quit yer Fox News-ing.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: vudu on February 08, 2010, 11:51:59 AM
Fox News-ing?  OH NO YOU DIDN'T

~ Capcom ~

good port, rail shooter, bad port, old port, old port, rail shooter, old port, stuff stuff stuff... oh my gosh, is Capcom lazier than NAMCO?
(http://sixsidedvideo.com/crap/CapcomWallOfShame.jpg)

good port = RE4
rail shooter = Umbrella Chronicles
bad port = Dead Rising
old port = REMake
old port = RE0
rail shooter = Darkside Chronicles
old port = Zack & Wiki
stuff stuff stuff = and the rest

WHO'S HOUSE?  RUN'S HOUSE
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 08, 2010, 12:10:54 PM
I think it went like this
--->
------| |
------|\/
<---

since he was obviously referring to Okami
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stogi on February 08, 2010, 12:14:33 PM
This thread is epic.

Thank you, Pro.

I can't wait to see the Nintendo Wall of Glory.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 08, 2010, 12:21:39 PM
MAH HOUSE IS OF TEH SHAME

Spare me your O'Reilly Factoring, gaming press stooge.  You didn't alert the Universal Wall Building Committee over the minor Grand Slam Tennis correction several Wall Sections of Shame ago, and your late-breaking twittering isn't swaying opinions now.
 
JUSTICE

^ This man gets it.

Imagine, entering big-time every-town-everywhere retailer...  In the same month, Wacky World of Sports and Animal Planet Pet Vet Life get shelf space, while Muramasa: The Demon Blade does not.  THIS is the CORRUPTION taking place.  THIS is the BIZARRO WORLD we live in.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 08, 2010, 12:22:46 PM
Closing Comments:

~~~~~

[3rd Party]  "Iwata was able to change more than the course of a war.  He changed the entire course of gaming history.  Is it wrong to hold on to that kind of hope?"
[R]  "I have not come for what you hoped to do.  I've come for what you did."  :reggie:

~~~~~

[R]  "A wall is a symbol, as is the act of destroying it.  Symbols are given power by people.  A symbol, in and of itself is powerless, but with enough people behind it, tearing down a wall can change the world."  :reggie:
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: vudu on February 08, 2010, 12:23:52 PM
You didn't alert the Universal Wall Building Committee over the minor Grand Slam Tennis correction several Wall Sections of Shame ago
You're blaming me for your lack of fact-checking?  Which one of us is Fox News again?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 08, 2010, 12:38:48 PM
You didn't alert the Universal Wall Building Committee over the minor Grand Slam Tennis correction several Wall Sections of Shame ago
You're blaming me for your lack of fact-checking?  Which one of us is Fox News again?

You're attacking me for doing extra work, for improving accuracy beyond the boundaries of necessity already stated in my opening-post disclaimer, going above and beyond the call of JUSTICE?!

EXTREMIST!
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: vudu on February 08, 2010, 12:41:36 PM
Patching up shoddy workmanship isn't the same as improving accuracy beyond the boundaries of necessity.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 08, 2010, 12:44:27 PM
Patching up shoddy workmanship isn't the same as improving accuracy beyond the boundaries of necessity.

Who built the Wall while your timid heart just stood by?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 08, 2010, 12:46:02 PM
Due to a mess of torn feathery pillows caused by an Insurgent to Decency, I shall reiterate:

~~~~~

[3rd Party]  "Iwata was able to change more than the course of a war.  He changed the entire course of gaming history.  Is it wrong to hold on to that kind of hope?"
[R]  "I have not come for what you hoped to do.  I've come for what you did."  :reggie:

~~~~~

[R]  "A wall is a symbol, as is the act of destroying it.  Symbols are given power by people.  A symbol, in and of itself is powerless, but with enough people behind it, tearing down a wall can change the world."  :reggie:
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: vudu on February 08, 2010, 12:46:35 PM
Who built the Wall while your timid heart just stood by?
I was busy playing video games instead of complaining about them.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 08, 2010, 01:00:56 PM
Who built the Wall while your timid heart just stood by?
I was busy playing video games instead of complaining about them.

Like you are now?

Can't find the time to play games and complain later?  What brings you to a NITNENDO FORUM?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: vudu on February 08, 2010, 01:02:25 PM
I'm a glass-is-half-full kind of guy.  But please--don't let that stop the rest of you from complaining.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 08, 2010, 01:12:27 PM
Maybe your glass is twice as tall as it needs to be.  If you're satisfied filling the remainder with 3rd Party Shame, there's nothing to discuss.

otherwise, ON THE WALL YOU GO, HUMPTY DUMPTY
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: vudu on February 08, 2010, 01:15:51 PM
It's more than likely my glass is smaller than most which is why I'm satisfied with the pittance of good games we receive.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 08, 2010, 01:28:27 PM
I used to be a glass half full type of person. But then I got curious about how it would be if the other half of the glass wasn't so empty. So I turned the glass upside down.
Now both halves are empty  :'(
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 08, 2010, 01:52:10 PM
I used to be a glass half full type of person. But then I got curious about how it would be if the other half of the glass wasn't so empty. So I turned the glass upside down.
Now both halves are empty  :'(

I understand.  I, too, bought The Umbrella Chronicles.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 08, 2010, 02:08:13 PM
Hey we receive a lot of great games!  Just none of them are from any of these third parties.

I'd be more inclined to try some of them out if I weren't already disillusioned by their rampant "Petz Party: The TV Show" games.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 08, 2010, 02:25:28 PM
(Though i will admit surprise that I've become part and parcel to the hardcore gamer stereotype of buying so many games that I can't find the time to play them all.)
I know what you mean, Kairon. I have a number of games I have bought and not played, some are even still sealed!
I don't think this is a "hardcore" gamer trait. Instead, there are several factors for it. The most notable one is that we don't have as much free time as when we were younger. Though we may also be not as interested in gaming as well, and use our free time for other activities and hobbies too. I don't think it's really a bad thing to possess unplayed games, either. In fact, I find it comforting to know that I have new games to play for those rainy/snowy days when I have some time to invest in a game. Isn't that a good feeling?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 08, 2010, 02:31:42 PM
No because part of me says I shouldn't buy more games until I finish the ones I already have...I think that was something my parents impressed on me and it encouraged me to finish playing through them since that was a condition of getting new games. Plus I get this strange feeling of guilt like I'm wasting money I could be using to gain interest in the bank or even to help others. I sometimes feel like I'm selfish to hoard all of these games and not even play them.

Though mostly it makes me sad I don't have the time I used to to play them all. I miss childhood.  :P:
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 08, 2010, 02:39:06 PM
I guess it depends on how many games we are talking about here. Are you stockpiling dozens of games or is it just a handful we're talking about? Do you always start the new games right when you get them and abandon what you were playing, leaving it unfinished? If you think the games you want may not be available at a later point, or may be difficult to find, then it makes sense to buy them when you can. I guess it is just a personal battle, and you'll have to figure out what is best for you. But my advice is that, as long as it isn't too out of hand, then I wouldn't fret over it.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 08, 2010, 02:45:41 PM
I have 7 games I haven't even played once. And 8 I've only played a few times. Even more are incomplete. You've seen my backloggery Mop it up so you probably have a better idea of how many incomplete games I own. I guess it's nice to have options for days when I'm itching for a specific type of game, but still, that's a lot.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 08, 2010, 02:57:01 PM
I don't know, 15 seems like a healthy amount to me. There are people I've talked with on other forums who had over 100 unplayed games and still bought more on a regular basis; THAT is excessive and unnecessary. And I won't even get into the people on a collectors forum I used to visit, because those people are borderline insane. When you have a ROOM full of unplayed games, then we'll talk about therapy. When you have a stack on your coffee table and make a conscious effort to get through them, then, well, I still don't see what's wrong about that. There are very few people I know or have talked with who don't have at least a few unplayed games in reserve, so I guess it's just normal to me.

I haven't checked your Backloggery in a while, I should look at that more often.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 08, 2010, 03:04:19 PM
I'm a little lazy in updating it but poking around on Maxi's other forum again has made me more conscious to it since on there I have the backloggery 'now-playing' sig visible.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 08, 2010, 03:16:05 PM
I haven't checked mine since May. Looks like my own game buying habits have decreased, as I haven't bought all that many games from now to then. I guess that means I've been making progress on playing my games, which is good.

I would actually be sad if I possessed no games I hadn't yet played. I guess that's the difference between us.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 08, 2010, 03:17:43 PM
I only have 2 unplayed games, and both are only because I bought them and when I got home I found that my Xbox 360 wouldn't play any of my games (I think the disc reader is busted).
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 08, 2010, 09:22:32 PM
I officially have... oh god... 16 games in my backlog.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 08, 2010, 10:13:42 PM
We need to get Lindy in here to make me feel less bad about my backlog that's more than twice as big as anyone so far.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 08, 2010, 11:37:35 PM
I got some spray paint for the EA section of The Wall of Shame (hint: it involves some profanity)

Dead Space: Extraction coming to PSN/XBLA? (http://kotaku.com/5467177/dead-space-extraction-planet-cracker-coming-to-xbla-psn)
Quote
Visceral Games' Dead Space 2 may not be the next game you play in the sci-fi franchise. Recent surveys point to an Xbox Live Arcade and PlayStation Network port of Wii misfire Dead Space Extraction and something brand new, Planet Cracker.

One survey's description of the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 port of Dead Space Extraction indicates that any planned port of the game would feature the same on-rails "guided first-person experience" gameplay, pitched as an "interactive horror experience" in "full HD." A tentative price of $15 USD was mentioned in the survey forwarded to Kotaku.
[...]
Both Dead Space Extraction HD and Planet Cracker were listed a possible incentives for Dead Space 2 that could be unlocked to those who pre-purchased the game.

So the game they tried to sell to all of us (i did buy it) for $50 and failed is now deemed suitable as a $15 XBLA/PSN download or FREE pre-order incentive for DS2?
I guess the game was worth quite alot to you EA..... Thanx for making me feel confident in my decision to support your product with my hard earned money.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 08, 2010, 11:42:04 PM
Me trying to take this in a positive light: Well, at least EA is admitting that the game, as a railshooter, and a fairly non-interactive one at that, simply wouldn't survive this marketplace at the original price they were asking for it, and therefore would be a failure on the HD consoles if given similar treatment.

Me actually taking this news: T_T
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 08, 2010, 11:44:30 PM
Well, if the game doesn't sell well there either, then at least that goes to show that its low sales had little to do with being on Wii. Of course, considering the price point is much lower, it may end up selling better than the Wii release.

I'm actually not too surprised to see such an announcement. The game performed below expectations so EA wants to try releasing it on other platforms.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 08, 2010, 11:49:28 PM
But they should have released it at a $30 price point on Wii and it would have sold alot better than it did(1st month was 9k). We didn't want another rail shooter as a consolation to the real game and certainly not at $50. Once again I did buy it, but it was the free game in a B2G1 Free deal.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 08, 2010, 11:53:41 PM
I wouldn't argue any of that.

Isn't Dead Space Extraction a remake of Dead Space anyway? Why would someone who's played Dead Space want a simplified version of it?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 09, 2010, 12:04:41 AM
It's a prequel that they classified as a "guided first person shooter".
It takes place during the same story as the movie that was released.

The original was a Third Person Shooter like RE4 and we were all excited when where heard Dead Space was coming to Wii. A sigh of disappointment was heard around the internet when a "GFPS" was revealed.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Urkel on February 09, 2010, 01:44:31 AM
Good. Now no one can possibly cite the sales of this game as proof that there's no market for a third person shooter on Wii since even EA acknowledges it's only worth $15. Also, this game isn't a third person shooter, but everybody seems to ignore that point.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 09, 2010, 07:36:33 AM
Me trying to take this in a positive light: Well, at least EA is admitting that the game, as a railshooter, and a fairly non-interactive one at that, simply wouldn't survive this marketplace at the original price they were asking for it, and therefore would be a failure on the HD consoles if given similar treatment.

Me actually taking this news: T_T

And to be fair the HD consoles got inferior interfaces that will probably have a severe impact on the playability of the game.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: SixthAngel on February 09, 2010, 07:57:52 AM
And to be fair the HD consoles got inferior interfaces that will probably have a severe impact on the playability of the game.

If they actually buy this game I will consider the HD audience the most gullible and easily dooped around.  They can't even use any sort of gun like or pointing ability to play a point and shoot game.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Peachylala on February 09, 2010, 09:33:07 AM
Oh god.
 
I can imagine all the HD fanboys just buying the game to spite the Wii. I feel dirty all over just thinking about that.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: D_Average on February 09, 2010, 10:06:01 AM
Charging $15 for a game that tanked is perfectly reasonable. It doesn't automatically mean Wii owners who paid $50 were robbed. When games do not sell the price drops. This has been a trend since the mid eighties.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Peachylala on February 09, 2010, 10:25:44 AM
I felt robbed.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 09, 2010, 10:28:43 AM
$50 for SD game @ retail on Wii
vs
$15 for HD version that will likely support Natal/Arc and is offered as a download
or Given away for Free (possibly with glitch fixes) as a pre-order bonus.

That's perfectly reasonable? That's how the game should have been handled (price-wise) when it was released on the Wii. or it should have been bundled with a port of Dead Space.I hope it bombs on HD systems now too.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on February 09, 2010, 10:33:16 AM
I'd be interested in hearing how much the game cost to make, and whether the developers think their game is worth $15 or nothing at all.

This thread is entertaining, because it illustrates very well why 3rd parties don't sell on the Wii, and not for the reasons any of you are talking about.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 09, 2010, 10:46:51 AM
Oh please enlighten us.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 09, 2010, 10:53:04 AM
Oh Boy.  Here come the recommendations for self-flagellating and guilt trips for buying full-effort Nintendo games and not half-effort consolation prizes by third parties who don't care.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on February 09, 2010, 10:59:06 AM
Put simply, Nintendo fans don't want third party games.

We don't want on-rails games!

We don't want shovelware!

We don't want HD games!

We don't like the color brown!


Any developer that doesn't line up with Nintendo's disruption strategy is seen as the enemy, and you actively root for their failure with threads like this. 
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 09, 2010, 11:10:53 AM
How is anybody rooting for their failure by simply listing the games they have made for the Wii?

The painting of Nintendo fans as ideologues notwithstanding, who do you think deserves to sell the most games on the Wii?

Is it Nintendo?  Or is it any of the third parties listed here?  I'm interested in your response.

Is it possible the animosity engendered by the third parties is actually their fault?  What steps have they taken to make considerable products on the Wii?  Have any of them arrogantly stated that they "understood" the Wii audience and made something that failed, both critically and commercially?  Could the "sour grapes" attitude copped by these publishers when they fail be another factor?

Is it really the Wii gamer's fault nobody bought the third parties' shovelware?  Is it really their fault that the hare-brained spinoffs didn't sell either?  I'm interested in this response too.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_Lindy on February 09, 2010, 11:11:13 AM
@insanolord You know, as much as I declare that I'm not going to expand my backlog, it just keeps growing.  Blaster Master Overdrive, Mass Effect 2, etc. /facepalm

Oh Andy, you couldn't leave well enough alone, could you?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 09, 2010, 11:27:33 AM
To be fair full games as preorder bonuses happen to the best of 'em, if you preorder Metro 2033 (IIRC) on Steam you get Red Faction Guerilla for free, a game that was 70€ less than a year ago.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on February 09, 2010, 11:30:04 AM
How is anybody rooting for their failure by simply listing the games they have made for the Wii?

It is not the action, but rather the intent and the tone that indicates cheering for failure.

Quote
The painting of Nintendo fans as ideologues notwithstanding, who do you think deserves to sell the most games on the Wii?

Is it Nintendo?  Or is it any of the third parties listed here?  I'm interested in your response.

It is Nintendo, because they have put in the most work. 

Quote
Is it possible the animosity engendered by the third parties is actually their fault?  What steps have they taken to make considerable products on the Wii?  Have any of them arrogantly stated that they "understood" the Wii audience and made something that failed, both critically and commercially?  Could the "sour grapes" attitude copped by these publishers when they fail be another factor?

Well, the game I'm personally considering my best of the year is a third party title.  In fact, in my top five Wii games this year, I'd include at least three third party titles.   As far as "understanding" the Wii audience, I'm not even entirely sure NINTENDO understands the Wii audience, considering games like Excitebots have failed at retail just like some of the third party games we're talking about.  Where's the outrage over that?  And rather, it's not that I'm surprised that you're upset that third parties seem to make mistake after mistake, but when this thread reached it's ELEVENTH page in about a week, the tone goes from "sour grapes" to absolutely enraged.   If this community was really thirsting for a AAA 3rd party Wii game, then they'd be too busy playing Silent Hill to get this thread to 11 pages in the course of 10 days.  Once again, I maintain that they don't really want any game that doesn't fit into Nintendo's ideology, which is almost every third party title out there not named EA Sports Active.

Quote
Is it really the Wii gamer's fault nobody bought the third parties' shovelware?  Is it really their fault that the hare-brained spinoffs didn't sell either?  I'm interested in this response too.

Who CARES about the shovelware?  EVERY system has shovelware.  It's our job as a website, and your job as a gamer who cares about playing unique original titles, to filter through it and point out what is worth playing. 
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_Lindy on February 09, 2010, 11:40:11 AM
Nintendo made the Wii for themselves, not third parties.  Nintendo is relatively indifferent to third parties, and in return third parties are relatively indifferent towards Nintendo.

This situation is what Nintendo wants, because it ensures they get the lion's share of all software sales on the console (as well as raking it in on the hardware sales side).  With all the budding business mavens on these boards, why is anybody complaining?  This is simply good business.

Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 09, 2010, 11:48:31 AM
Oh Andy, you couldn't leave well enough alone, could you?
Not to mention he got it all wrong.

Many of us own plenty of 3rd party games, but it's only because we are informed enough to not shop the she shelves in the aisle at Target or TRU looking for something that looks cool that we don't end up with crap title after crap title and lose 100% faith in anything that doesn't say "made by Nintendo", have Wii in the title of the game or have a picture of Mario on the cover.

If you were standing infront of that Wall in the aisle of TRU/Walmart/Target/etc. and knew nothing of any of those titles, since none of them have been advertised, then threw a dart to decide which one you were gonna get, chances are that 19 out of 20 times you are gonna end up with some poor excuse for a game that never should have been made and/or sold at full price. That alone is enough to make you a jaded gamer and only stick to what you know will be worth your time and money.

That is why 3rd parties are having a hard time on the Wii. We "hardcores" can't support the good games on our own when they don't even give us the games we want 85% of the time. Just because they put in some effort and popped out a game of quality doesn't mean that is the game I should want and am forced to buy it either. When we are told that we are getting a new entry in the RE series, we don't expect a rail shooter spin off, the same goes even more so for a much lesser know game like Dead Space.

When the Wii gamers say they want something that's like WiiSports, they didn't mean a cheap lazy knock off with all the same sports but crappier controls and less polished graphics. They meant something that made good use of Wii Controls over fun, but varied situations. And it surely wasn't meant to make an entire game off of one gimmicky use of the waggle and slap a license on it to get name recognition and charge $50 for it.

As far as HD is concerned.... who said we don't want HD? we would love HD, it's just that HD doesn't make or break the gameplay. Games like SSBB and SMG would look beautiful in HD and I;m sure most of us look forward to the day when the Wii2 comes out and we can go back and see all those games bumped up in resolution, but it's not gonna suddenly take a game like The Conduit and all of a sudden make it a better game.

So it's sad to say that it looks like Drew's overly simplified insight was overly wrong.
No one is rooting for 3rd party failure, we want them to stop doing the things that are causing them to fail and get their **** together. Wii gamers are not some sub-sect of gamer who enjoys over simplified waggle games with $10 budgets and no care whatsoever put into it. We want real games, just like the games they make for the HD systems, which are just like the games they made for all the systems last gen and the gen before that.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Arbok on February 09, 2010, 11:52:07 AM
Nintendo made the Wii for themselves, not third parties.  Nintendo is relatively indifferent to third parties, and in return third parties are relatively indifferent towards Nintendo.

Then third parties should make more of an effort. If the Chinese government is indifferent or hard to work with, should companies avoid or act meagerly toward this market? No, and nor are they because they see the large base of consumers with growing disposable income. Third parties should be the same way with the Wii. They need to take the initiative.

Sony and Microsoft are better at courting third parties, and could be argued are getting more of a reward from them. That said, the bottom line should be the most important thing, not the easiest road, and far too many of these publishers come across as simply not having the initiative that they need in a market where Nintendo is #1 again.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 09, 2010, 11:52:25 AM
Quote
As far as "understanding" the Wii audience, I'm not even entirely sure NINTENDO understands the Wii audience, considering games like Excitebots have failed at retail just like some of the third party games we're talking about.

Well then why do third parties continue to act like Nintendo's got a secret line in to their customers if even Nintendo doesn't know?  And why does Nintendo not throw a PR temper tantrum when they do have a titles that fails?

Quote
Where's the outrage over that?

Nintendo didn't blame us...?

Quote
And rather, it's not that I'm surprised that you're upset that third parties seem to make mistake after mistake, but when this thread reached it's ELEVENTH page in about a week, the tone goes from "sour grapes" to absolutely enraged.

It's obviously a hot button issue that isn't going away.  People are rightfully enraged at being blamed for third party games selling poorly when they make awful games, when they make spinoff games in lieu of real effort, poorly market them, and blame Nintendo, Wii Owners, and the economy instead of their obviously crummy games.

Quote
If this community was really thirsting for a AAA 3rd party Wii game, then they'd be too busy playing Silent Hill to get this thread to 11 pages in the course of 10 days.  Once again, I maintain that they don't really want any game that doesn't fit into Nintendo's ideology, which is almost every third party title out there not named EA Sports Active.

Apparently Nintendo's ideology is wide enough to Include Wii Sports, Wi Fit, Zelda, Mario Galaxy, NSMBWii, SSBB, Resident Evil 4, and Metroid.  All of which have performed similar or better than EA Sports Active (And definitely better than the Sequel).

this thread isn't about isolating a single good game and saying "aha!  That redeems them."  This whole thread started because of PR from third parties blaming Nintendo, Wii, and its owners for poor sales, and Pro just thought he'd analyze all the third party libraries and see who actually has a legitimate complaint.  Who did the best with their brandnames and who created the best environment for their games to sell.  Naturally, nobody really did other than Nintendo.  While it is nice that, for a few titles, they may have deigned to pay attention, but their flood of shovelware definitely factors into why they underperformed.

Nintendo obviously, doesn't have that problem, because they've made good games the whole time.  Even their "worst" titles, even the ones labeled the most "casual" are leagues ahead of most of the third parties' crap.

Quote
Who CARES about the shovelware?  EVERY system has shovelware.  It's our job as a website, and your job as a gamer who cares about playing unique original titles, to filter through it and point out what is worth playing.

3rd parties should care about shovelware.  They're ruined their brandnames in front of the largest audience making any effort they make meet with suspicion, and their shovelware didn't sell to boot.  And it's not my "Job" To MAKE the third parties' games a success.  They have to make good games first.  Why is it all on the gamer, again?

EDIT
Quote
This situation is what Nintendo wants, because it ensures theyget the lion's share of all software sales on the console (as well asraking it in on the hardware sales side).  With all the buddingbusiness mavens on these boards, why is anybody complaining?  This issimply good business.

Nitnendo doesn't just have the best software sales on the Wii.  They have the best software sales, period.  I also think we're not so concerned with Nintendo.  They'll be fine (Boy will they.)  We're more concerned with the third parties' business rationale for flooding the Wii with crap nobody wanted or bought while saying the whole tiem that they do.  Shareholders for these companies are probably screaming at them right now, especially after Nintendo broke the one month console record in December.  Nintendo looks good, as always.  They look like chumps and idiots.

Besides, Nintendo gets royalties for third party games too.  It is good business to try and get them on board as well.  And Nintendo thought they had it with an excitable product, an insanely large userbase, and easy development.  But third parties turned on the floodgates, threw pity parties when the "casual Wii owners" strangely stopped buying all their casual shovelware.  It's not really what Nintendo wanted, but it ended up that way and Nintendo didn't have to do a thing other than leave Third parties to make the games they wanted to (garbage) and Nintendo to continue to make quality games That people buy in droves.  Apparently making good games is good business.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_Lindy on February 09, 2010, 12:19:30 PM
Everybody on this thread needs to go out and get Tatsunoko VS. Capcom, Silent Hill: Shattered Memories, and pick up Monster Hunter Tri when it comes out.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: D_Average on February 09, 2010, 12:22:33 PM
Ultimately the Wii is Nintendo's system. If they didn't want such an enormous wall of shovelware they could have certainely implemented stricter standards for releasing a game on THEIR system. We've seen crap games before but what you see in the Wii aisle today at Walmart is unprecedented and beyond rediculous. Third parties have indeed been lazy but Nintendo certainely isn't without blame either. Manage your product.
 
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_Lindy on February 09, 2010, 12:26:44 PM
Better yet, market it, package it, and create games for it in such a way that doesn't alienate every non-Nintendo-fanboy gamer over the age of 12.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 09, 2010, 12:30:38 PM
Put simply, Nintendo fans don't want third party games.

We don't want on-rails games!

We don't want shovelware!

We don't want HD games!

We don't like the color brown!


Any developer that doesn't line up with Nintendo's disruption strategy is seen as the enemy, and you actively root for their failure with threads like this.

Your logic train completely missed the station.

The Expanded Audience (and fresh new younger-crowd customers) is the majority on Wii, outnumbering the nintards.  Assuming they weren't Nintendo regulars to begin with, your fanboy checklist doesn't even apply.  So excluding the nintards, there's still a vast audience 3rd Parties are attempting to sell to.

3rd Parties didn't proactively attempt to attract the existing Nintendo fans ("we don't get Wii gameplay;" "we won't assign our best devs on Wii projects;" "we won't spend PS2/Xbox era top-dollars on Wii projects;" "have another rail shooter;" "how did you hear about our gamey gamer's game? our fantastic non-marketing campaign?;" "we can't compete with Nintendo, let's not compete with Nintendo, sp let's pull a fast one on the customers who are still unaware") and they dumped casual tardware on the Expanded Audience 4 holiday seasons in a row.  The nintards haven't budged, but the remaining audience has had more than enough time to figure out it's better to stick to Nintendo than be deceived by 3rd Party assware (*feel sorry for those who bought consecutive duds).  Brand loyalty towards Nintendo is built up, and 3rd Parties get blacklisted (... creating new Nintendo fans?).

Quote
If this community was really thirsting for a AAA 3rd party Wii game, then they'd be too busy playing Silent Hill to get this thread to 11 pages in the course of 10 days.

Who CARES about the shovelware?  EVERY system has shovelware.  It's our job as a website, and your job as a gamer who cares about playing unique original titles, to filter through it and point out what is worth playing.

If the visitors got Silent Hill, they would've beaten it in 2 days, 2 months ago (and I've played it 3 times, anecdote FTW!); plenty of time left to visit this thread.  Most (Wii) customers, I assume cuz there's so many of them, don't actively seek the info provided by the enthusiast press.  Therefore, it's still the 3rd Party's job to advertise/differentiate whatever it is they call their "best" products.  But they don't.  GOOD FOR THEM!  THEY SAVE $$$.  THOSE UNSOPHISTICATED NON-BUYERS DON'T KNOW THEY'RE MISSING OUT (WTF how could you stand by and let them "not know"?).  3rd Parties won't attract the nintards, sure, but they won't attempt to attract fresh new customers?

Nintendo made the Wii for themselves, not third parties.  Nintendo is relatively indifferent to third parties, and in return third parties are relatively indifferent towards Nintendo.

This situation is what Nintendo wants, because it ensures they get the lion's share of all software sales on the console (as well as raking it in on the hardware sales side).  With all the budding business mavens on these boards, why is anybody complaining?  This is simply good business.

Good business on Nintendo's side -- does that mean 3rd Parties have been content with BAD BUSINESS all this time?

3rd Parties expressed financial "disappointment" HURT and placed blame on Nintendo, Wii, and the smarter-than-they-originally-thought customers (and no longer "the recession"), as if they expect us to believe they TRIED (HAH!).  That is NOT indifference, and we're not letting it slide.
 
Quote
Ultimately the Wii is Nintendo's system. If they didn't want such an enormous wall of shovelware they could have certainely implemented stricter standards for releasing a game on THEIR system. We've seen crap games before but what you see in the Wii aisle today at Walmart is unprecedented and beyond rediculous. Third parties have indeed been lazy but Nintendo certainely isn't without blame either. Manage your product.

Third parties have released what they wanted to splooge.  When Nintendo makes it harder for them to defecate, for whatever reason, they leave.  (thus royalties plummet)
 
You've been following video games since when, last Thursday?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 09, 2010, 12:35:34 PM
Quote
Ultimately the Wii is Nintendo's system.

NOW it is.

Quote
If they didn't want such an enormous wall of shovelware they could have certainely implemented stricter standards for releasing a game on THEIR system.

Oohhh No.  They already did that back in the NES days.   Third parties hated that with a passion and everybody called them tyrants.  And What the hell, third aprties will make awful games by default?  How pathetic are they?  Jeez.

Quote
We've seen crap games before but what you see in the Wii aisle today at Walmart is unprecedented and beyond rediculous.

That's the thread's point.  It is ridiculous.  But still, I usually see Nintendo's games all lumped in one case and all the "other" stuff in another.  Evidently most shoppers just skip over the "other" case and go right tot he good stuff.

Quote
Third parties have indeed been lazy but Nintendo certainely isn't without blame either.

How so?  Did Nintendo point a gun at their heads and force them to make their awful games?

Quote
Manage your product.

They do.  That's why their sales haven't fallen while third parties' have.  Since nobody really buys the shovelware, people only remember Nintendo's good games.  And even so, they don't have to keep shovelware out of Walmarts and Targets anymore.  They've already said "no mas" to the shovelware.  (Because it doesn't sell.  Imagine that.)
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 09, 2010, 12:40:08 PM
This is NOT what Nintendo wants because it forces them to sustain the Wii's momentum all by themselves and any mistake like Christmas 2008 will massively hurt the Wii. Sony and MS can pretty much coast while third parties do all the work for them. Nintendo would at least benefit from the safety blanket of multiple companies supplying the system with great games to keep it interesting even when Nintendo itself cannot provide at the moment.

Everybody on this thread needs to go out and get Tatsunoko VS. Capcom, Silent Hill: Shattered Memories, and pick up Monster Hunter Tri when it comes out.

Does having SHSM on preorder because it's not released here yet count? I really want the game but it's still over a week away.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 09, 2010, 12:48:51 PM
Everybody on this thread needs to go out and get Tatsunoko VS. Capcom, Silent Hill: Shattered Memories, and pick up Monster Hunter Tri when it comes out.

have the 1st 2 and getting the 3rd(w/ Black CCPro).
TvC is my most played game right now and I've only played SH up until the cabin in the woods(30min).
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_Lindy on February 09, 2010, 12:54:30 PM
I'm just saying, if you're going to complain about third parties, support the third party games that are the product of effort.  Heck, Capcom actually ADDED functionality to TvC and MHTri for their Western release.  Nobody does that.

Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 09, 2010, 12:57:33 PM
TvC would be alot more rewarding if the ending weren't so crappy.
My Wii collection has to be nearing the balance of the industry right now
55% Nintendo and 45% everyone else.
I think I have around 30 or so games for the Wii.

And the only games I would have even considered being regretful of buying were 3rd party games, but I'm not all that regretful since I didn't pay full price for them.

edit:
3rd parties have to realize that they are competing for our dollar, and therefore need to make games that we want to spend out dollar on. They can't expect us to want to spend our dollar on games they want us to buy just because they put effort into it.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: that Baby guy on February 09, 2010, 01:15:15 PM
I don't like thriller games.  I'm not buying Silent Hill, because I wouldn't buy Silent Hill if I had other platforms.

I buy games I like, regardless of publisher.  That includes TvC, and will probably include Monster Hunter, but Silent Hill isn't my cup of tea.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on February 09, 2010, 01:20:10 PM
I'm just saying, if you're going to complain about third parties, support the third party games that are the product of effort.

We've been doing that all along.  Has it helped?  Hold on while I double check this thread to see...


No.  It has not.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 09, 2010, 01:22:25 PM
If more people had bought Far Cry Vengeance when it came out on the Wii... *sigh*
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: D_Average on February 09, 2010, 01:29:09 PM
@Pro
Did I say royalties wouldn't change?  Nope. Not sure where you came up with that absurd assertion. If you release fewer games royalties go down, obviously.

My point was simple. No one is forcing Nintendo to allow crappy or even broken games on their console. 
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 09, 2010, 01:41:04 PM
TvC would be alot more rewarding if the ending weren't so crappy.

Finding out what kind of nonsense you get as an ending is almost a bigger reward than the unlocks for beating arcade mode!
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 09, 2010, 01:42:33 PM
@Pro
Did I say royalties wouldn't change?  Nope. Not sure where you came up with that absurd assertion. If you release fewer games royalties go down, obviously.

My point was simple. No one is forcing Nintendo to allow crappy or even broken games on their console. 

In Nintendo's defense, they must have been desperate to reverse the situation last generation where the GameCube was seeing so little third-party support. They sought to rectify it by removing many barriers to development on their consoles, which sounds like it included removing a stringent game concept approval process (a type of process that I've heard killed PS2 2D titles on the drawing board).
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 09, 2010, 01:47:21 PM
@Pro
Did I say royalties wouldn't change?  Nope. Not sure where you came up with that absurd assertion. If you release fewer games royalties go down, obviously.

My point was simple. No one is forcing Nintendo to allow crappy or even broken games on their console. 
But you forget (as has already been mentioned) that Nintendo used to do that. Limit the amount of releases a company can have in a certain year to make sure they went with quality over quantity.

3rd parties got around that by making shell companies/subsidiaries to release those games for them. I believe that how Ultra games had come to be way back in the day.

Shovelware is part of the game and Nintendo isn't gonna stop them from making it. 3rd parties do more harm to themselves with all that crap than to Nintendo as evidenced by the record and bank breaking profits.

I'm sure Nintendo would love to see 3rd parties thriving on the Wii since it would help seal market dominance and marketshare, but they aren't exactly crying over it at this point. Also doesn't mean they aren't actively trying to fix it either though.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 09, 2010, 01:51:24 PM
Quote
My point was simple. No one is forcing Nintendo to allow crappy or even broken games on their console. 

Are third parties little children?  I mean we are talking THE MAJOR PLAYERS here.  EA, Activision, UBISoft, even Capcom and Sega.  This is the defense of them you want to use?  That third parties are so inept that their default programming is ****?  So far the only people hurt by releasing shovelware are the third parties reputations and bottom lines.  So sorry that they chose to release awful games, but that's nothing Nintendo's responsible for just because they took a hands-off approach to third parties and let them make what they wanted to make.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 09, 2010, 01:54:07 PM
Third parties are and have been capable of making great games across genres and platforms and time periods. It's just the question of how. On the Wii, you could argue that they lack skillsets, information, and value-models that would help them in other situations where they've been more successful.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Halbred on February 09, 2010, 01:58:47 PM
Look, Dead Space Extraction was a great game. It's in my Top 3 for the year, seriously. EA didn't market it and Nintendo didn't give two craps about it and, honestly, the light-gun market is kind of flooded already. As a result, it sold extremely poorly.

That says nothing of its QUALITY. It is a QUALITY product, and I urge you all to check it out. Another game I bought and love: Let's Tap, though I'm struggling to find a "perfect box." Would you consider that to be "shovelware?" It's incredibly simplistic and experimental, but I think it's a quality product--I have a good time with it.

I think the core problem here is that when it comes to almost all 3rd party games and even some 1st party games (*cough*Excitebots*cough*), consumers are being forced to do the research themselves or rely exclusively on box art and price points. That's not fair. Third parties are actively supporting the console, but nobody is throwing money at the PR situation. Thus, Dead Space Extraction sells extremely poorly, despite its quality.

I didn't read the whole thread up until this, so maybe I'm repeating points already made...
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 09, 2010, 02:05:45 PM
you are kinda, but no big deal.

I vouch for DSE, but it's not a $50 game. It was fun, flawed and should have released at $30.

Shovelware is something I classify as a "game" that was thrown together on a shoestring budget (sometimes with a license attached) just to put something on the shelves that they know is no good, but might sell enough copies to make a profit.

And we've all come to the agreement that advertising is a major issue as to why 3rd parties (and some 1st party games) have sold horribly.
Other times, it's just because they made a game that we didn't want, regardless of the quality of the product, which is why it didn't sell. *coughDSEcough*
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Arbok on February 09, 2010, 02:09:52 PM
Thus, Dead Space Extraction sells extremely poorly, despite its quality.

Dead Space was going up against Resident Evil. EA made a huge mistake by doing that. I already had Umbrella Chronicles, and while I did want one more rail shooter for my collection (and only one) Capcom already had my dollar reserved with their next offering. For many, one rail shooter was enough. EA didn't stand a chance and should have had that foresight.

Hell, I even bought Dead Space Extraction (once it went on sale) for my sister, and she still has yet to open it because Darkside is still keeping her busy. Even to rail shooter fans, it's timing was poor, but really that genre is dead (or really has always been dead, the Wii only breathed some minor life into it temporarily) going by recent sales of other titles there.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Halbred on February 09, 2010, 02:13:34 PM
No, I don't think DSE should have EVER been $50 (it was $50?!). Maybe $40 at its initial launch, drop to $30 a month or two later. I got it for free, so...yeah.

That's another problem this generation: price inflation. It's ridiculous that HD games cost $60 a goddamn pop, but what's worse is that consumers support it. I wait until inevitable price drops, and I think a lot of other people do to, but not nearly enough to drop the initial price across the board. And quite simply, a lot of Wii games should not be $50 or even $40 at launch. If third parties want to sell games, they should market the damn things, and maybe make the price more attractive at launch.
 
@Arbok: Yeah, I have the same problem going into Darkside, too. They came out like two months apart, and Darkside was certainly the "better gamble." I'm happy to say that DSE turned out better (IMO). But I see what you're saying.
 
It's like back when Ubisoft released BG&E and Sands of Time in the same month. Epic fail.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 09, 2010, 02:20:48 PM
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EA didn't market it and Nintendo didn't give two craps about it

If EA didn't care enough to market it, showing a lack of faith in their own product, why should Nintendo care for them?  EA took care of Tiger Woods 10 by themselves, what was wrong with Dead Space Extraction?

Quote
Third parties are actively supporting the console,

Yeah, we've noticed.  They just aren't supporting with much worthwhile, and every piece of crappy shovelware just hurts their ability to sell anything more with every title.  If they had made better games in the beginning, they wouldn't be in this mess.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_Lindy on February 09, 2010, 02:22:30 PM
I think it's ridiculous that Wii games are priced at $50.  They should all be $30 to start (since they cost sooooooooooooooooooooooo much less to create than HD games, RIGHT?).  Heck, by the time I buy them they're usually $13.99, so that $40-$50 price point gets them nowhere.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Halbred on February 09, 2010, 02:24:22 PM
Heck, I doubt the developer determines price point. EA probably slapped the $50 price tag on DSE and then forgot to market it. I feel sorry for Visceral.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_Neal on February 09, 2010, 02:47:45 PM
Especially when you hear what's happening to Visceral. Supposedly Dante's Inferno is a different team with the name slapped on it. They're basically EA's bitch now.

Though this could all be hearsay.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Peachylala on February 09, 2010, 05:53:30 PM
Who ISN'T EA's bitch in this generation?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 09, 2010, 05:55:34 PM
:starts raising hand....remembers DSE.... slowly puts it back down again: :(
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 09, 2010, 09:20:07 PM
I see a lot of blame being thrown Nintendo's way - that Nintendo should hold the hands of 3rd Party Developers, refuse to license bad games, pay for advertising, etc., etc...

Does Sony and Microsoft do this?  I'm pretty sure they both have a hand in advertising at least, but what about the other two?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 09, 2010, 09:42:37 PM
MS bank rolls development for timed exclusives
which leads to.....
Sony forcing extras in every game that is a port from another system.

Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stogi on February 09, 2010, 10:03:36 PM
I always see commercials for games on the PS360 that have a review in them. I haven't once seen that for the Wii. If your game took real effort, thrid party, and is critically acclaimed...advertise it, maybe? :zoid:
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 10, 2010, 06:46:19 AM
Overall, this thread is a success.  Nobody can really argue any defense for the third parties that doesn't involve shifting the blame to Nintendo.  And we have two new conspiracy theories to add to the mix.

One involves a dastardly plot by Nintendo to make an extremely popular console, corral all the third parties onto the Wii, tell them to make horrible games to boost Nintendo's brand image and make their games look very attractive to new customers, sap the effort and develop budgets of the hard-working third parties, and then Nintendo just sits back, relaxes, and rakes in all the profits from their effortless and easy projects. Of course, why third parties would just accept Nintendo's conniving and scheming plot at face value and go along with it for three years is rather suspect, but it makes perfect sense otherwise.

The other is that Nintendo is such a controlling tyrant that they forced third parties to make shovelware for the Wii by not telling them not to make shovelware.  It is such an outrage that Nintendo could possibly attempt to meddle in third parties affairs by not meddling.  And then they have the gall to demand that third parties should make whatever they please.  Who elected you comptroller of game content, Nintendo?!  Maybe next time you'll think about not encumbering third parties in any way.  Autocrat!  Dictator!
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Peachylala on February 10, 2010, 11:22:19 AM
I always see commercials for games on the PS360 that have a review in them. I haven't once seen that for the Wii. If your game took real effort, thrid party, and is critically acclaimed...advertise it, maybe? :zoid:
Let's be fair, do said games really deserve those good scores?
 
DO THEY?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stogi on February 10, 2010, 11:41:06 AM
I would say some of the games do deserve that score. We're talking about Wii games right?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Peachylala on February 10, 2010, 11:52:25 AM
I would say some of the games do deserve that score. We're talking about Wii games right?
It's pretty much a common conception that Wii game reviewers, besides us and NWR, are incapable of reviewing Wii games properly. (see IGN's NSMBWii review, the failure is astonding)
 
I bet Daemon could troll SMB3 if he wanted to. It's on the VC, so technically it's a Wii game.
 
=(
 
 
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Urkel on February 10, 2010, 02:20:24 PM
And we have two new conspiracy theories to add to the mix.

Nothing new here. RickPowers stated the exact same theories when he last posted here.
 
Makes perfect sense too. Just look at the DS, which DOES have meaningful third party support. Nintendo is really struggling to sell their games with all that competition.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 10, 2010, 02:52:34 PM
Who ISN'T EA's bitch in this generation?

EA has been tanking in the last 2 years. If anything, they are other peoples bitch now.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: EasyCure on February 10, 2010, 03:19:23 PM
If this community was really thirsting for a AAA 3rd party Wii game, then they'd be too busy playing Silent Hill to get this thread to 11 pages in the course of 10 days. 

To be fair, Silent Hill: Shattered Memories could be played in one of those 11 days, leaving plenty of time for posting. In fact as we speak I paused NMH: DS for a second to post this, but only after I read the next two pages of this thread :) (which comes after my next round of Pizza with a Vengance!)

Fake Edit: Pro beat me to this point 1 page ago, whoops!

Everybody on this thread needs to go out and get Tatsunoko VS. Capcom, Silent Hill: Shattered Memories, and pick up Monster Hunter Tri when it comes out.

TvC: Will be picking up after I finish NMH2 (poor Metroid Prime Trilogy got lost in my back-log)
Silent Hill: Already purchased, for someone else. Thinking about getting my own copy instead of borrowing the one I purchased for the person that has a smaller wii library than I.
Monster Hunter Tri: looks interesting, and the CC Pro bundle looks very enticing.

Point is: Informed gamers do their part when it comes to quality games (and even some of questionable quality..) and still have time to post on these boards to express their opinions about being talked down to by someone that essentially works for me, because I'm the one spending my money on their products so they can profit from it. So, I've clearly down my part right? Well what about the 3rd parties? It isn't enough to just put some effort to make a game and throw it out there and hope that I wasn't playing the leatest and greatest Wii game to know their next game had released, they still have to try to advertise it. Yes, even to me, a "non-casual/hardcore" and relatively informed gamer. Someone go into the DSE thread and tell me how many times I'd posted "wait, this games out already!?" because I honestly had no idea. If i go to a retailers video game section, I usually know what I want so I only spend a few minutes rummaging thru the crap to get to what I want..

What about the rest of the userbase? What about the non traditional gamer who isn't very informed of the latest games? They're not only unaware that a lot of shelf space is taken up by crap, but they're COMPLETELY unaware of any games with actual merit.

Anectdote time:

Mom goes into Target, wants to buy a new Wii game for the family to play, she really enjoys WiiSports so she gets a game that looks similar, takes it home and it isn't as fun and probably very buggy/glitchy. Months later same mom goes into that same Target and decides to get a fitness game to suppliment her WiiFit work-outs, buys the closest ripoff available, takes it home and has the same regret as last time. Well, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...

Get it? 3rd parties aren't only NOT marketing their good games but releasing so much filler that it hides the decent/good games from buyers view. That my friends brings us back to the point of this thread, which Pro was able to demonstrate visually without us having to be blinded by the bright lights of Wal*mart.

god i'm sick of long post
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 11, 2010, 01:33:37 AM
It doesn't even have to be a Mom, really.  It can be gamer labeled "casual" or even a regular everyday gamer who doesn't hit refresh on IGN every 30 seconds.  Even the people who ran the fiercest defense for the third parties here still admit Nintendo has out-developed them out-marketed them.  That's the kind of word-of-mouth that spreads into "Third parties make mostly garbage, buy Nintendo only" that no amount of marketing boost from Nintendo could help against that, especially since it has the added benefit of being true.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 11, 2010, 01:45:39 AM
One thing that might help is if Nintendo allowed more of its franchise characters to cross over into 3rd party games, even if its only cameo appearances. We all know that Mario & Sonic at the Olympics was a huge seller, even though it was (kinda) a third party effort. One of the best things Nintendo has going for it is the strong catalog of beloved characters from its games. Mario is the main one, but there's also Link, Samus, etc.

Nintendo should open up these characters a bit more and loan them out to 3rd parties, or just let them appear or be referenced in 3rd party games. Doing that would perk up people's interest and they would want to check it out.

But of course, if Nintendo did this they would also have to be very careful the only pimp out their characters to quality 3rd party efforts. Having these beloved characters appear in garbage games would dilute them and make them lose their value by being associated with such filth. That's why it would also be important to have Nintendo Superstars like Miyamoto and so forth supervising these efforts and make sure the games are worthy, and if they aren't worthy then Nintendo should pull its support from it immediately.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 11, 2010, 01:52:25 AM
I think Nintendo already tried that last generation, Chozo.  They let Little Mac in Fight Night Round something and put Mario in some EA sports titles.  It didn't pan out very well and didn't really help much.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 11, 2010, 01:54:54 AM
Plus I think that would result in overexposure to Nintendo's franchises, which could cause them to become stale and uninteresting. Just look at how many Mario games were released for the GameCube, especially during the last two years. Even I think it was a little excessive, and I'm a huge fan of Mario.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 11, 2010, 01:57:37 AM
Don't forget Link in Soul Calibur, which rocketed the series into the attention of Nintendo fans and then they ditched the system when a lot of Nintendo fans fell in love with the game through Links appearance.

Also, AV/Sega with F-Zero and Namco with Mario Kart GP and Star Fox Assault were also part of some deals that occurred last gen.

I think there were some more too.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 11, 2010, 02:22:00 AM
I don't think loaning characters out like that is going to help against the Wall of Shame. Most of these new gamers aren't looking for Nintendo characters, they probably don't even know half of 'em. Maybe they had a NES and loved Super Mario Bros but that's it. I don't think they'll even care if you present them with a Zelda game. It's not even just about quality but also appeal to new gamers, you can make the most polished OOT sequel and these people won't care because they don't want to play complicated 3D games (I tried it, they get confused by 3D navigation).
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 11, 2010, 05:43:48 AM
I keep seeing people bring up Silent Hill - isn't it just a remake of a PS2 title that's also being ported to the PS2 and PSP?

Man, that sounds like an awesome game I want to get in on.

Not to mention the awesome reviews it's getting.  "Tedious Bull****" and "one-time rental" don't really get me excited.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 11, 2010, 05:45:48 AM
The original was a PS1 title actually.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on February 11, 2010, 05:56:34 AM
I keep seeing people bring up Silent Hill - isn't it just a remake of a PS2 title that's also being ported to the PS2 and PSP?

Man, that sounds like an awesome game I want to get in on.

Not to mention the awesome reviews it's getting.  "Tedious Bull****" and "one-time rental" don't really get me excited.

You must not have read my review.   It's not a remake, it's a retelling of the premise, with a completely different plot.  The similarities are few and far between.

No, this is an original Wii title being ported to PS2 and PSP.  And if you're going to cherry pick review lines as a reason not to buy it, well then I can use the same tactic:

"Silent Hill: Shattered Memories fills a gap in the Wii's horror lineup, and it does so with finesse and substance."

"The way the flashlight illuminates the environment really impresses"

"The game features five different endings depending on your responses to these questions, giving you plenty of incentive to replay the game."

Anyways, didn't mean to derail this thread with talk about video games.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 11, 2010, 06:13:52 AM
Any game that is quickly and easily ported to the PS2 and PSP isn't a "best effort" by any developer.

We all know the Wii isn't a graphics powerhouse - but it's not a last generation system or a handheld either.  If a developer wants to be lazy and throw something together for the lowest common denominator , that's fine.  But I'm not going to be interested in buying it.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on February 11, 2010, 06:24:07 AM
Wow.  That is really shortsighted, Unclebob.  Sorry, but it is.

Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 11, 2010, 06:28:43 AM
Wish Konami made that game before Target Terror or Scene it? Twilight.  Regular people might think they were competent.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 11, 2010, 07:09:41 AM
Any game that is quickly and easily ported to the PS2 and PSP isn't a "best effort" by any developer.

That depends on how you define "easily".
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_Lindy on February 11, 2010, 07:23:13 AM
Overall, this thread is a success.

No Deg, this thread is an outright failure.  The only thing it has served to do is, once again, start a massive argument - not debate, argument - which drags down the forums as a whole and generates nothing but negative feelings.  If you consider that to be a success in any regard, then please, leave these forums.  This whole thread was basically the anti-third party brigade puffing out their chest and saying, "Who dares challenge me?"  It was flamebait right from the start, serving no purpose but to stir up a hornet's nest by provoking those that disagree, and then piling on them when they do voice their opinions.

I'm this close to locking it, since there is really no debate going on here.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 11, 2010, 08:26:47 AM
I vehemently disagree.  Nobody was "arguing" until page 11, a good 12 days later, with the first shot being an indictment of the people who participated in this thread for so long.  I saw debate (actually, mostly agreement) until then.

Quote
This whole thread was basically the anti-third party brigade puffing out their chest and saying, "Who dares challenge me?"

No it wasn't.  If anything it was a demonstrative effect of shovelware on shelf space, brand name, and market strength, and a debate on whether third parties' libraries, taken as a whole, could be reconcile with intellectual consistency their claims of "X not selling."  I don't think people supporting the conclusions drawn by the first post are "anti-third party" just because third parties made those games and most of them are pretty bad and they agree that they are pretty bad.  It's not any more "anti-third party" than bringing up Carnival Games, Wii Fit, and "casual gamers" is "Anti-Nintendo."  It's just supported by the facts, right?

Quote
It was flamebait right from the start, serving no purpose but to stir up a hornet's nest by provoking those that disagree, and then piling on them when they do voice their opinions.

Flamebait?  To who?  Third parties?  I disagree with your assertion of "flamebait."  Just because an argument started on the 9th almost two weeks after the thread started doesn't mean that was Pro's intent for the thread when he did post it those weeks ago.

But, you are entitled to your opinion.  If that's what you think, fine.  We'll agree to disagree.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 11, 2010, 08:30:03 AM
Any game that is quickly and easily ported to the PS2 and PSP isn't a "best effort" by any developer.

We all know the Wii isn't a graphics powerhouse - but it's not a last generation system or a handheld either.  If a developer wants to be lazy and throw something together for the lowest common denominator , that's fine.  But I'm not going to be interested in buying it.

If you read impressions of the PS2 version the game is ****. Everything looks bad and it plays horribly. The game was made for the ground up as a Wii title and was merely ported to the PS2 as a cash grab.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: ejamer on February 11, 2010, 08:39:57 AM
Overall, this thread is a success.

No Deg, this thread is an outright failure.  The only thing it has served to do is, once again, start a massive argument - not debate, argument - which drags down the forums as a whole and generates nothing but negative feelings.

That deserves a standing ovation.
 
Sometimes it seems like people online fail to distinguish between trolling for comments and generating discussion.  Post (or page) count isn't what makes a thread successful - the ideas and subsequent discussion generated are!
 
That said, it can be harder to generate discussion without a little bit of controversy sometimes... but does it ever get tiring to read these negative (and often ridiculous) threads in every Wii forum online.  Is it only like this for Nintendo, or do Sony/Microsoft gaming forums have the same issues?
 
---
 
Anyway, on a sidenote I think UncleBob also has an interesting comment up above:
 
"Any game that is quickly and easily ported to the PS2 and PSP isn't a 'best effort' by any developer."
 
On one hand, I agree.  The Wii is clearly a more powerful system, and it also has many unique elements.  In my mind, a best effort game should try to take advantage of those elements whenever it clearly makes sense to do so.  However, saying that games should be difficult or impossible to port a game to another system to be worth playing is a huge leap from that statement.
 
Even though Little King's Story is a great game, I still feel like it's missing out by not using pointer controls to improve the experience.  The game could easily be ported to other systems, and suggesting that it's not a best effort is difficult when you consider the overall quality of the title.  Most importantly, this game is downright fun to play.
 
Silent Hill is example of a game that did get ported (with notable downgrades) to other system, but remains totally worth playing and clearly best on Wii.  Heck, Mega Man 10 will be worth playing and it could be easily and instantly ported to the NES.  Obviously the ability to create ports isn't an automatic statement about the quality of a game.
 
So while I appreciate it when developers find ways to make their games unique and more immersive on Wii, I don't think a game needs to take advantage of those unique features to count as a "best effort" or be considered "worth playing".
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: D_Average on February 11, 2010, 09:10:18 AM
I vehemently agree with Lindy's conclusion. That is all.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_Lindy on February 11, 2010, 09:13:54 AM
Flamebait?  To who?  Third parties?  I disagree with your assertion of "flamebait."  Just because an argument started on the 9th almost two weeks after the thread started doesn't mean that was Pro's intent for the thread when he did post it those weeks ago.

But, you are entitled to your opinion.  If that's what you think, fine.  We'll agree to disagree.

Was the intent of this thread to engender polite discussion?  No, its intent was to continue the dialogue of, "Look how bad third parties suck on the Wii.  Everybody come pile on while we flame them!"  These discussions are rampant on these boards. Deg, you're a high-quality poster, and I'd love to see you involved in threads other than the "Look at how amazing Nintendo is at business/Third parties, Sony, and Microsoft are awful at business" borefests.  Unfortunately, these are the only threads that you seem interested in participating in.

You can counter this with "You and Andy dragged this thread out by posting in it thread so late," and while that's true, this thread wasn't meant to die, was it?  It's meant to live forever as a testament to how terrible third parties are, a point that has been made over and over and over and over.  I guess it's an axe several people never get tired of grinding, but I'd rather that grind take place a lot less around here.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 11, 2010, 09:14:16 AM
Overall, this thread is a success.

No Deg, this thread is an outright failure.  The only thing it has served to do is, once again, start a massive argument - not debate, argument - which drags down the forums as a whole and generates nothing but negative feelings.  If you consider that to be a success in any regard, then please, leave these forums.  This whole thread was basically the anti-third party brigade puffing out their chest and saying, "Who dares challenge me?"  It was flamebait right from the start, serving no purpose but to stir up a hornet's nest by provoking those that disagree, and then piling on them when they do voice their opinions.

I'm this close to locking it, since there is really no debate going on here.
Well I couldn't disagree with everything said here more. There was no arguing because everyone was agreeing with each other about the point of the thread; 3rd parties have released far too much crap and it hides the few good games that were released. In that regard, the thread was a success as it pointed out why exactly 3rd parties are not selling games beyond the "they aren't advertising them" argument.

There was no debate because, well, who would disagree with the evidence provided by looking at the wall? The only time argument/debate began was when Drew came in and tried to incorrectly summarize the point of the thread missing it entirely (as it seems you have too). What is there to debate? 3rd parties have literally buried most of the good games in a wall of crap and figured the people would either figure it out and find the good stuff or just buy it all and love it. wrong.

And I don't think this thread was "Anti-Third party Brigade" as it was "Anti-Shovelware Wall of Shame". Go look at the wall and tell me where we were saying we HATE 3rd parties and that they should all die!!! I believe it was more along the lines of "I can't believe 3rd parties can release all of this crap and then turn around and blame everyone else as to why we don't instantly just buy their games when we see them", but I'm not gonna go back and quote search ;)

I fail to see how there was any flamebait as the only "baiting" in this thread has been done by the staff about the legitimacy of this very thread that we were all happy with you not noticing for so long. You all should be taking the idea and dressing it up for public consumption on the main site, using NWR as a platform for 3rd parties to see the error of their ways so that they can become aware of the problem and hopefully take steps to fix it. (It will also probably drive a lot of traffic to the site in the process too)

Quote from: Unclebob
Silent Hill blah blah blah
Wow....really UB?  I'm disappointed in that post and I'm not sure how you came to such a conclusion. Nothing much more to say on that.

Quote from: ejamer
.....
we don't have an animated laughing .gif that I can post 10x in a row do we?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: EasyCure on February 11, 2010, 09:21:51 AM
personal opinion on the matter*

*statement retracted do to lenght

**** it I should just leave the forum because I think this thread proved its point in the OP and, like a lot of the people who posted here, agree that 3rd parties low quality games overshadow their other efforts in the eyes of new-to-gaming customers (and even gamers like myself), especially when lack of marketing creates zero product awareness. Who know every thread had to be about debating and not just discussing a hot topic issue in Wii gaming.

Guess there's nothing left for me in this place.. after all speculation on new games only last so long before you become exhausted with guessing and Nintendo doesn't give you any info until the games almost done. I can't comment on 3rd party games either since bringing up the bad ones lead to trolling, and bringing up the good ones will go from positive comments to negative ones after the game is released, bombs because outside the forum no ones heard about it and said 3rd party comments insulting their customers (us the ones who did by the game cuz we actually knew about it). There's always the funhouse I guess.. but then again, when staff starts making ya feel like you don't belong here, whats the point?

 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_Lindy on February 11, 2010, 09:26:28 AM
I'm challenging the purpose of this thread that beats a dead horse, much like people got annoyed with constant posts about how much Nintendo's E3 2008 presentation sucked.  If that makes you feel like you don't belong, I apologize.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 11, 2010, 09:31:08 AM
Okay, let's say for a moment that all of my concerns about Silent Hill being a remake of a PS1 game designed on a half-budget are 100% unfounded.

Let's say Silent Hill is the best damn game on the Wii. EVER. 10 years from now, there still won't be a game that touches the awesomness that is Silent Hill Wii.

Where's Konami's ads telling me this?

The average consumer doesn't read some random guy's review on some website.  They're going to walk into Target. Walmar or GameStop and see this giant wall of shame _ and - if Konami is lucky, they *might* notice this one title in the blob of Petz games and shamless movie tie-ins.

Nintendo advertised New Super Mario Bros. Wii. TV, magazines, internet ads. This game was going to sell more than $5 lap dances at grandpa's birthday party... Yet Nintendo still advertised it.

So where's the ads for Silent Hill?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 11, 2010, 09:32:55 AM
You should be happy that we've created a centralized place to beat the dead horse instead of dragging it all over the forums to beat. The thread served a point though, and that was to lay it all out infront of you visually so that it was painfully obvious what the dead horse was and why we keep beating it (it's still growing!!!).
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 11, 2010, 09:36:03 AM
Okay, let's say for a moment that all of my concerns about Silent Hill being a remake of a PS1 game designed on a half-budget are 100% unfounded.

Let's say Silent Hill is the best damn game on the Wii. EVER. 10 years from now, there still won't be a game that touches the awesomness that is Silent Hill Wii.

Where's Konami's ads telling me this?

The average consumer doesn't read some random guy's review on some website.  They're going to walk into Target. Walmar or GameStop and see this giant wall of shame _ and - if Konami is lucky, they *might* notice this one title in the blob of Petz games and shamless movie tie-ins.

Nintendo advertised New Super Mario Bros. Wii. TV, magazines, internet ads. This game was going to sell more than $5 lap dances at grandpa's birthday party... Yet Nintendo still advertised it.

So where's the ads for Silent Hill?

That doesn't mean the game sucks, it just means that this game is just another in a very tall wall of games being buried by the rubble and no one even knows to look for it since no one is aware that it exist. That is entirely the fault of the publisher though and has nothing to do with the quality of the game itself.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 11, 2010, 09:43:02 AM
Quote
Deg, you're a high-quality poster, and I'd love to see you involved in threads other than the "Look at how amazing Nintendo is at business/Third parties, Sony, and Microsoft are awful at business" borefests.

I don't think Nintendo was even mentioned in this thread as being superior at anything until the 3rd page, when I just explained the phenomenon of Wii owners buying mostly Nintendo games.  And I don't think anybody mentioned "business" until way later.  Just straight up as developers, based on market reaction and critical scores.

And Sorry, I'll try to be more interesting in the future.

Quote
You can counter this with "You and Andy dragged this thread out by posting in it thread so late," and while that's true, this thread wasn't meant to die, was it?

Didn't Pro, the Original poster, actually say he was finished with this thread on Page 9 or 10?  So he did finish the thread, or at least motioned for an endgame to it.  It's not his fault or.. the thread's fault it became popular.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on February 11, 2010, 09:44:04 AM
Honest question, BlackNMild, and Deguello:

If simply posting an image of every shitty game on a system is enough to prove your point, then why do third parties succeed on the DS?   What about the Playstation 2?  Couldn't you make a similar "Wall of Shame" for DS or PS2?  I think your point is that third parties don't allocate enough resources toward Wii titles, and that's an assertion I can get behind.  This is NOT the way to make that point.

Also, I apologize for any incendiary comments I made earlier on this thread.   EasyCure, I hope that I didn't make you feel like you weren't welcome here.  Most of you guys have been active here longer than I have, and I hope you all understand that I think dissenting opinions are valuable at a site like ours.  We need discussion, discourse, debate.  The problem as I see it is that there's so much of it, and the comments have become so goddamn snarky (I'm at fault here too, before you point fingers) that the discussion goes from polite to attack in no time flat, and that's unfortunate. 

Deg, you know by now that you and I agree on very little, but Lindy's right: You're a hell of a poster, and having you here is an asset. 

Okay, so I'd like an honest answer here to my question above:  Why has the overwhelming presence of shovelware been a problem on the Wii, but not the DS or the PS2 before it? 
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 11, 2010, 09:51:50 AM
Quote
Okay, so I'd like an honest answer here to my question above:  Why has the overwhelming presence of shovelware been a problem on the Wii, but not the DS or the PS2 before it?

Probably because shovelware wasn't all they made for the PS2 or DS, and the shovelware didn't come from the major producers.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 11, 2010, 09:53:22 AM
The point of this thread is to provide evidence for the constant "whose fault is it that third parties can't sell on the Wii" discussions. The list of releases provided here is pure evidence. There's nothing flamebaity about the wall itself, Pro didn't make any fake games up to smear third parties, he just listed what they did in a very visual manner that allows us to get a better feel for the sensory overload caused by the Wii's library of shovelware.

Apologies for third parties are everywhere in the gaming media, often even trolling for hits. Nobody is willing to call the third parties out. In the face of this situation it isn't surprising that we vent our frustrations at this biased reporting in the forums. Whenever a major news site brings it up as a discussion in something like their podcast or editorials the debate is always centered around the faults of Nintendo and the Wii owners, never those of the third parties (beyond "needs more advertising"). What shovelware does to the third party's brand image and just how many large third parties are guilty of shovelware is pretty much ignored. We're sick of IGN being the only voice out there. We're sick of third parties being treated with utmost respect while everybody wails on Nintendo. This isn't because of brand loyalty but because we see that bashing the wrong tree won't get the apples to fall.

Though it does seem a bit strange that the troublemakers in this thread are all NWR staffers.

Anyway, I'll go back to frothing over Zangeki no Reginleiv, a game that could have been published by D3 Publisher instead of Nintendo because it's made by an independent team but D3P failed to seize the opportunity.


EDIT: The DS and PS2 received many more full efforts from third parties. When they make a good game for the Wii it's often still an experiment, a rare game that's supposed to gauge the behaviour of the market. The Conduit was the first major FPS for the Wii since Red Steel, compare that to the flood the PS2 got!
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on February 11, 2010, 09:57:42 AM
One thing I really like about Talkback and Podcast Discussion threads is that no one wastes time asking why those threads exist.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on February 11, 2010, 10:01:12 AM
Quote
Okay, so I'd like an honest answer here to my question above:  Why has the overwhelming presence of shovelware been a problem on the Wii, but not the DS or the PS2 before it?

Probably because shovelware wasn't all they made for the PS2 or DS, and the shovelware didn't come from the major producers.

Regarding your first point, shovelware isn't all they make for Wii.  There are plenty of quality Wii titles out there.   

Here's a brief list of "shovelware" games put out by Ubisoft on PS2.  Note that Ubisoft also developed the very popular Splinter Cell and Prince of Persia titles:

Catching Granda Jimmy : Battle Of The Ages
Surf's Up
The Dukes of Hazzard: Return of the General Lee
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
Downtown Run
FLOW: Urban Dance Uprising
Monster 4x4: Masters of Metal
Mum's Night Off

So once again, why did the presence of these games not hinder sales of Prince of Persia or Splinter Cell titles? 
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_Lindy on February 11, 2010, 10:02:24 AM
KDR: As a staffer I care about the general tone of the forums.  You don't have such concerns.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 11, 2010, 10:03:06 AM
Because that shovelware isn't followed with the bulk of the 3rd parties actual best efforts and certainly not any advertising for the efforts that they did make.
PS2 may have gotten shovelware by the truckload, but everything else was advertised and people knew what came out and when. You also know that PS2 was gonna get just about every game that wasn't made by Nintendo or MS since they were the market leader.

With the DS shovelware is everywhere too, but the good games are advertised and people are generally aware of and happy with the games that they have been buying.

The Wii is getting 80% crap from most of these publishers and almost all of the games they put effort into are either ports we might have already owned or were done fairly poorly, spin-offs to games that we actually wanted and stealth released so that we didn't even know it was out yet.

To it plain as day, The problem with so much shovelware on the Wii is that there are no BIG well advertised games coming from the 3rd parties as well.
The only person advertising anything on the Wii is Nintendo, so when you look for something not made by Nintendo, all you have to go on is brand recognition and cover art. "Hey look!!! They made Castlevania for the Wii!! lets get that....."
45 minutes later.... "WTF is this Captain Picard .jpg"
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on February 11, 2010, 10:06:00 AM
So, once again, your issue seems to be with advertising and the lack of development resources being put into Wii titles.

The problem isn't "too much shovelware", it's "too little everything else."
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 11, 2010, 10:07:17 AM
I actually was about to mention UBISoft as a developer and prime supplier of DS shovelware, who only recently blamed the DS for their games losing $200 million in revenue from 2008 to 2009, also citing lower DS sales (WTF).  When in reality, these guys have published like 70 Petz games in the span of 3 years or so, and even Wal-mart had to ask them to stop.  UBIsoft even blamed the film Avatar and James Cameron for their Avatar game not selling well.

Also, it probably didn't help that they didn't exactly lead off well on the Wii, so even if they promised to make better games (which they did) they still have to face down that stigma.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on February 11, 2010, 10:08:56 AM
Okay, so your issues also include boneheaded (probably unauthorized) comments by executives.  That's STILL not what this thread is about, so let's get back to the topic at hand. 
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Halbred on February 11, 2010, 10:10:21 AM
GC games that were "easily ported" to other consoles, thus UncleBob has little to no interest in them:

Viewtiful Joe
RE4

The Wii version of Silent Hill was the lead skew, the PS2 and PSP ports were cash-grabs for people who bought SH: Origins.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 11, 2010, 10:13:36 AM
Okay, so your issues also include boneheaded (probably unauthorized) comments by executives.  That's STILL not what this thread is about, so let's get back to the topic at hand. 

I think all other points are made abundantly clear just by their wall of shovelware.  Anything they did do worthwhile was budget-choked and they chose not to market with anything, and everybody began to associate that swirly-blue dot on the bottom right with shovelware, and it's well deserved.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Peachylala on February 11, 2010, 10:16:24 AM
Okay, so your issues also include boneheaded (probably unauthorized) comments by executives.  That's STILL not what this thread is about, so let's get back to the topic at hand. 

I think all other points are made abundantly clear just by their wall of shovelware.  Anything they did do worthwhile was budget-choked and they chose not to market with anything, and everybody began to associate that swirly-blue dot on the bottom right with shovelware, and it's well deserved.
Also note that Red Steel 2 is what is going to make or break them with the Nintendo non-casual audience. They screw up, heads are going to roll.
 
 
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 11, 2010, 10:18:40 AM
Was the intent of this thread to engender polite discussion?  No, its intent was to continue the dialogue of, "Look how bad third parties suck on the Wii.

This thread tells it like it is. Maybe it is saying third parties suck on the Wii, but is that not the honest truth? I understand the truth hurts at times, but it shouldn't be censored. I hope third parties are out there looking at this thread so they can understand why they've failed.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on February 11, 2010, 10:21:38 AM
I hope the third parties of the world have better things to do than look at forums.   Like making better games.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Peachylala on February 11, 2010, 10:23:19 AM
I hope the third parties of the world have better things to do than look at forums.   Like making better games that are not going to be for Wii.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 11, 2010, 10:23:36 AM
Okay, so your issues also include boneheaded (probably unauthorized) comments by executives.  That's STILL not what this thread is about, so let's get back to the topic at hand. 

This thread is about the sheer amount of crap vs good and how the good don't stand out on their own against a wall of crap that surrounds it. I don't see how that point is so easy for you to miss when we keep pointing out over and over again.

This thread isn't saying that 3rd parties suck and all their games suck and they should die in horrible fire fueled by all the crap that they have made. It's saying that 3rd parties need to only look inward to see why their games are failing and that we aren't the problem. You can't take a dump in a bowl, cover it with whip cream, sprinkles and put a cherry on top, hand me a spoon and then wonder why I don't want to dig in.
I think it's quite obvious why I'm not just digging in and eagerly move towards the other table to see what Nintendo is serving up instead.

The Wall was not created because shovelware exist, it was created to show how much shovelware was made in relation to how many games were released. If we asked you to review the Wall of Ubi alone, you would literally be cursing out Ubisoft for 80% of the games you were forced into playing.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on February 11, 2010, 10:24:36 AM
Quote
Like making better games that are not going to be for Wii.

Apparently no one told Climax or Capcom or Square Enix that.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on February 11, 2010, 10:25:59 AM
Quote
I don't see how that point is so easy for you to miss when we keep pointing out over and over again.

Just because I don't agree with it doesn't mean that I'm missing the point.   You're confusing dissension with stupidity.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 11, 2010, 10:41:35 AM
Well you keep trying to tell us what this thread is about, when we know exactly what it is about.

I'm pretty sure it's about 3rd parties failing as Wii developers and publishers and trying to pass the blame to everyone but themselves regardless of what their entire release schedule looks like.

But....
That's STILL not what this thread is about, so let's get back to the topic at hand. 


It's like looking at a mozaic picture (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://click7.org/image-mosaic-generator/example.png&imgrefurl=http://click7.org/image-mosaic-generator/&usg=__7uK_vaAiUEHDgusYDvHIV1xu2A0=&h=586&w=624&sz=684&hl=en&start=20&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=xGJ19v3TBFpJHM:&tbnh=128&tbnw=136&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmosaic%2Bpictures%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DqlJ%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1) of a turd, and when you zoom in, most of the pics are pics of turds, but if you didn't look so hard you might have missed the few pictures of sunsets and flowers and children having fun. Maybe if I had told you ahead of time that those pics were in there, you would have known to look for them, but I didn't, so it's likely you would just move onto the next pic.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: ejamer on February 11, 2010, 10:44:43 AM
Quote from: ejamer
.....
we don't have an animated laughing .gif that I can post 10x in a row do we?

Thanks.  Speaking of not understanding what a post is about, it's great to see that my fears of Wii boards being overrun by silly negativity were completely unfounded.
 
Edit: Note to self, don't bother responding in the future.  The "PhD in Penis Fencing" tagline proudly displayed by some users should tell you what to expect for conversation.
 ::)
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 11, 2010, 10:57:49 AM
The problem isn't "too much shovelware", it's "too little everything else."

It's the ratio that's the problem so more else or less shovelware has the same effect.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: D_Average on February 11, 2010, 11:13:20 AM
Nintendo came to my town once in a van so I could try Mario Kart Wii. Where the hell are the third party vans?  If they only invested in more vans, we need more vans to generate buzz for games like DSE.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stogi on February 11, 2010, 11:18:21 AM
I'd just like to say this and only this:

I look forward to the Nintendo Wall of Glory

oh and Leela,

(http://images1.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Fry-Leela-futurama-967816_1024_768.jpg)

"There's nothing wrong with anything"
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Peachylala on February 11, 2010, 11:24:45 AM
Didn't Unclebob make one already?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 11, 2010, 11:36:34 AM
There are so many things I want to respond to(like the idea of compairing a company porting from one system to the other within the same generation vs. porting from a current generation's system to a last gen system), but I can't quote posts from the mobile forum, so it'll have to wait.

But the PS2 shovelware topic has came up. Would someone be interested in building a wall of, say, Ubi's PS2 games?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 11, 2010, 11:43:23 AM
Quote from: ejamer
.....
we don't have an animated laughing .gif that I can post 10x in a row do we?

Thanks.  Speaking of not understanding what a post is about, it's great to see that my fears of Wii boards being overrun by silly negativity were completely unfounded.
 
Edit: Note to self, don't bother responding in the future.  The "PhD in Penis Fencing" tagline proudly displayed by some users should tell you what to expect for conversation.
 ::)
Just to clarify, I was only laughing at your comment that Lindy's response deserved an ovation, one that was standing at that, but I should have just stated that.

Trust me, the last thing I'm trying to do is "fence" off a potential new regular with my "PhD" in "Penis" usage (I forget where that tag even came from, I think it was a comment Easycure made). But as for the rest of your post

Sometimes it seems like people online fail to distinguish between trolling for comments and generating discussion.  Post (or page) count isn't what makes a thread successful - the ideas and subsequent discussion generated are!
 
That said, it can be harder to generate discussion without a little bit of controversy sometimes... but does it ever get tiring to read these negative (and often ridiculous) threads in every Wii forum online.  Is it only like this for Nintendo, or do Sony/Microsoft gaming forums have the same issues?
The only reason this thread comes off as negative, is because it's pointing out the negativity of 3rd parties. If you were to go to a Sony/MS forum I'm sure most of the Wii discussion is on how the Wii doesn't have any games, how the Wii is a gimmick, how the wiimote sucks, how Nintendo allows only their games to sell on Wii, etc. etc.
This thread isn't necessarily to bash the 3rd parties, but to just point out the error in their ways. It's alot harder to defend the 3rd party efforts on Wii while the Wall is sitting right in front of you, which is the whole reason the wall exist in the first place.

as for your SH commentary, that has already been addressed by myself and others in direct responses to UB.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 11, 2010, 11:45:50 AM
But the PS2 shovelware topic has came up. Would someone be interested in building a wall of, say, Ubi's PS2 games?
Why bother? Ubi's PS3 shovelware existed in the background. All their main games were well advertised and had plenty of gamer mindshare. Ubi wasn't stealth releasing core games behind a wall of crap and then complaining that crap we didn't even know existed wasn't selling and that it was out faults.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: ejamer on February 11, 2010, 12:21:39 PM
Sometimes it seems like people online fail to distinguish between trolling for comments and generating discussion.  Post (or page) count isn't what makes a thread successful - the ideas and subsequent discussion generated are!
 
That said, it can be harder to generate discussion without a little bit of controversy sometimes... but does it ever get tiring to read these negative (and often ridiculous) threads in every Wii forum online.  Is it only like this for Nintendo, or do Sony/Microsoft gaming forums have the same issues?
The only reason this thread comes off as negative, is because it's pointing out the negativity of 3rd parties. If you were to go to a Sony/MS forum I'm sure most of the Wii discussion is on how the Wii doesn't have any games, how the Wii is a gimmick, how the wiimote sucks, how Nintendo allows only their games to sell on Wii, etc. etc.

...

Eh, don't mind me.  I found the tone of the thread quite hostile, and make a point of applauding anytime somebody calls out how negative internet fanboys can sound.  Maybe I'm just an old codger who would rather look at gaming (a hobby I retreat to for enjoyment and escapism) through rose-colored glasses and celebrate the best parts instead of beating down the worst.
 
-- snip --
Cutting some stuff that really isn't relevant
-- snip --

Oh, and my question about MS/Sony forums were whether they were so overwhelmingly negative towards their own consoles.
 
Do Sony fanboys gripe about the lack of games and terrible ports?  Are MS forums always abuzz about hardware issues and limited exposure to other genres?  Somehow I imagined they take more time talking about all the exciting games coming out instead - and Wii has no lack of great games scheduled for 2010!  Maybe I need to seek out those threads instead and leave this topic for people who prefer to talk about what is wrong with Wii.
 
Nothing wrong with disagreeing, maybe we'll find common ground in other threads instead.
 :)
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Halbred on February 11, 2010, 12:35:21 PM
*rousing applause*

Well said, sir. Mario Galaxy 2, Other M, Monster Hunter Tri, maybe Wii Zelda, it's gonna be a helluva year.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: A Straight Up Trippin' Balls Forum User on February 11, 2010, 12:46:45 PM
I hope the third parties of the world have better things to do than look at forums.   Like making better games.

Seems LikE a Good way to gEt feedback and commuNicate Directly with custOmers.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 11, 2010, 01:01:41 PM
One last response before I likely walk away from this thread too.
Quote from: ejamer
Sometimes it feels like Wii "fans" are the absolute worst sort, who prefer to whine and complain than to appreciate what is set before them... focusing on a "wall of shame" instead of the dozens of individual games worth playing is just another example.
Are we really supposed to just be thankful for what we get and that is that?
I know we always have the option of buying a Xbox360 or PS3 for the gaming content we crave, but I own a Wii and I want games for my Wii.
The 3rd parties are bringing a literal feast to the table of the HD gamers and the owners of the Wii either get the items off the kids menu, left over table scraps or experimental side dishes.

Quote from: ejamer
Finally, my question about MS/Sony forums were whether they were so overwhelmingly negative towards their own consoles.  Do Sony fanboys gripe about the lack of games and terrible ports?  Are MS forums always abuzz about hardware issues and limited exposure to other genres?  Somehow I imagined they take more time talking about all the exciting games coming out instead - and Wii has no lack of great games scheduled for 2010!
I can't really speak on how Sony/MS fans converse on their own, but I'd imagine they have the mentality of "can do no wrong" link many Nintendo fans do for Nintendo products. But as far as talking about whats upcoming for the Wii.... all we can do is speculate since all we have are announcements of a games existence in most cases and impression of games that might not get localized in all the rest. You can only discuss the scraps of info on Zelda Wii for soooo long before the conversation moves onto something completely unrelated.

Quote from: Anonymous PM
it's quite problematic that when 3rd Parties release a rare good Wii game, the difficulty for that game to succeed goes beyond "lack of advertising" and "lack of resources" -- the 3rd Parties have allowed the world to be the way it is, and their consistency in being so "hands-off" (anti-proactive?) implies they're OKAY WITH IT.
 
So maybe it boils down to "lack of advertising/resources" -- WHY, WHY, WHY does it continue to be that way?  WHY do the "good games" continue to be rare?  So maybe one or two good games have come out, but they're treated with so little promotional esteem that it doesn't improve the publisher's image -- WHY does it still feel like the publishers don't have anything left on the horizon (the familiar axing of support)?  What's left for customers to go by?  Stores and years of Walls of Shame.

Really, what is coming out from 3rd parties that we know about? What is it that we have to get excited about? where is the HYPE from the publishers? All they are known for at this point is the stuff people have bought from The Wall and by not advertising the games people should give a damn about, that is all they will continue to be known for.

So what do we have to look forward to from 3rd parties at this point?
Monster Hunter 3
Red Steel 2
Dragon Quest X
Epic Mickey

One of those is only rumored and the last might be released near the end of the year. Not a whole lot to discuss there.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Halbred on February 11, 2010, 01:24:09 PM
Are we really supposed to just be thankful for what we get and that is that?

.....yes?

What more do you want? I'm kept very busy by the stack of Wii games I currently own, alongside all the VC and WiiWare games I've picked up lately.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 11, 2010, 01:39:35 PM
I'm not saying that we don't get some good games too, but we can't be blamed for not wanting to wade through all the **** if they don't even want to throw us a rope.
I'm happy with lots of the games I own 1st & 3rd party, but I can't be expected to go out and just buy whatever just because they(Big name Publisher) released it and it has their(Big name Publisher) label on it.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 11, 2010, 01:50:38 PM
I look around and I see a lot of complaining. But since the beginning of this generation, I've been excited about the third-party offerings for the Wii. I've always made clear this excitement level, and acted on it.

There are 69 games on the wall that are in my collection. This doesn't even include third parties who aren't represented on the Wall. That's over a little more than 3 years of the Wii's life.

As a Nintendo-fanboi, I have found an average of 23 GAMES A YEAR from this supposed Wall of Shame that have captured my interest.

How many of the complainers have tried to be part of the solution, instead of part of the problem? Of the games from this supposed wall of shame, I have the following:

Quote
Ubisoft

Red Steel
No more Heroes
Dawn of Discovery
Broken Sword
Red Steel 2 (purchase intent)
The Dog Island
Far Cry Vengeance
No More heroes 2
Rayman Raving Rabbids

Activision

Marvel Ultimate Alliance
Call of Duty 3
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare: Reflex Edition
Tony Hawk's Downhill jam
Guitar Hero 3 Legends of Rock

EA

Dead Space: Extraction
Spore Hero
The Godfather: Blackhand Edition
Medal of Honor: Heroes 2
Boom Blox
Harry Potter & The Chamber of Secrets
My Sims
My Sims Kingdom

Zoo Games

Sea Monsters

THQ

de Blob
Deadly Creatures

Majesco

Wild Earth: African Safari
Zoo Hospital
Cooking Mama: Cook off
A Boy And His Blob
Blastworks

Sega

Alien Syndrome
Ghost Squad
The House of the Dead 2 & 3
The House of the Dead Overkill
Madworld
The Conduit
Sonic & The Secret Rings
Sonic & The Black Knight
Nights
Let's Tap
Mario & Sonic At the Olympic Games

Konami

Target terror
Deca Sports
Elebits
Dewey's Adventure
DDR Hottest Party

Take-Two

Manhunt 2
Bully
Carnival Games
MLB Power Pros

Namco Bandai

Soul Calibur Legends
We Cheer
We Cheer 2
The Sky Crawlers
Klonoa
The Munchables

Capcom

Resident Evil 4
Resident Evil Umbrella Chronicles
Dead Rising: Chop Till You Drop
Resident Evil Darkside Chronicles
Zack & Wiki
Harvey birdman
Okami
Spyborgs
Tatsunoko Vs. Capcom (purchase intent)
Monster Hunter Tri (purchase intent)

Square Enix

Dragon Quest Swords
Final Fantasy: Echoes of Time
Final Fantasy: The Crystal Bearers

Some may call this the third-party wall of shame. It's true that there are many games on there I have little interest in buying. But there are at least 69 games on there that I already have. Some were less than satisfactory. Most weren't.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Halbred on February 11, 2010, 01:56:18 PM
Wow, nice. How's that Sea Monsters game? I watched the Discovery Channel special, which was pretty good.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_Lindy on February 11, 2010, 02:36:13 PM
If anything, this thread smacks of elitism, like 99% of the games in the Wii library aren't good enough for the sophisticated gaming palates around here.  Heck, even when a third party game gets Wii GotY from a press outlet, it's still not good enough.

For those waiting for third parties to "get their act together" on Wii, you can stop pining.  It ain't gonna happen, not this generation.  That's why I think threads like these are pointless...it's like complaining about Nintendo themselves making more casual-oriented games than "core" games.  It's not going to change no matter how bad you want it to, so at some point you gotta stop complaining, accept it for what it is, and move on.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: D_Average on February 11, 2010, 02:40:31 PM
Wow 69?  That should satisfy anyone!  Enough with the pity party and enjoy what you already have. Myself, I still need to finish Geometry Wars Galaxies.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: vudu on February 11, 2010, 02:41:40 PM
If anything, this thread smacks of elitism, like 99% of the games in the Wii library aren't good enough for the sophisticated gaming palates around here.  Heck, even when a third party game gets Wii GotY from a press outlet, it's still not good enough.
I don't think anyone here is claiming all 3rd party games are bad.  Most readily admit there are some high-quality 3rd party games.

The problem is there is an abnormally high crap-to-quality ration in the Wii's 3rd party line up.  Close your eyes and pick 10 games at random from the first post in this thread.  Chances are 9 of them will make you cringe just thinking about them.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 11, 2010, 02:56:43 PM
Why is the point of this thread so often over looked?
the few of us that get it can only restate it so many times and then here come the rebutters missing the point yet again.

Just re-read what vudu posted since everytime I attempt to explain it seems to fall on deaf ears.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 11, 2010, 03:09:48 PM
As consumers we ultimately hold the power to change the situation, but it would require us to be organized and determined to make it happen. Writing letters and signing petitions is one thing we all could do to try to convince 3rd parties to support the Wii like they should, and another thing we should do (if we aren't already) is boycott the shovelware games. Make it clear to 3rd parties that they can make this crap, but we aren't going to buy it. We want quality games or they can just leave entirely. We don't want crap. That is the message we need to be working harder to make clear to these jerks.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: D_Average on February 11, 2010, 03:44:40 PM
Jerks?  Really?  If you don't like it don't buy it. Are they showing up to your house uninvited with a basket full of crappy poets for you to buy?  That, would make them jerks.   

Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 11, 2010, 03:45:42 PM
*rousing applause*

Well said, sir. Mario Galaxy 2, Other M, Monster Hunter Tri, maybe Wii Zelda, it's gonna be a helluva year.

Great list!  I'm personally looking forward to all of those games.

Oddly enough, each of them is 1st party but one.

Umm.. what was the point of this thread again?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 11, 2010, 04:01:12 PM
Jerks?  Really?  If you don't like it don't buy it. Are they showing up to your house uninvited with a basket full of crappy poets for you to buy?  That, would make them jerks.

Crappy whats?

No, they're being jerks because they are throwing temper tantrums and blaming everybody else because they've fouled their own brand names and they don't want to lose their jobs, so they are looking for a scapegoat.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Halbred on February 11, 2010, 04:03:12 PM
Monster Hunter Tri is a Capcom game, of course.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 11, 2010, 04:32:48 PM
...and that would be the one non-first-party game I mentioned.

Anywhoo, I think several others have said and re-enforced the initial point of this thread over and over. Everyone seems to know why third parties are having such a hard time with the Wii except the third parties.  It's not just *one* thing, either. It's a combination of things.  This thread was just highlighting one of them - the fact that a company will slap their logo on virtually any product and call it a day.

Several people have called for Nintendo to set stricter standards for Wii games - I counter with this - Why doesn't >insert third party here< set these standards for themselves?

Life is like a box of chocolates. Let's put 60 chocolate candies in a box. We'll label this box E-Ubivision. 8 of these chocolates are going to be filled with your favorite filling ever. The next 12 are going to be filled with something you personally don't like, but others might. The other 40 are going to be filled with dog poo. How many you gonna eat?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Halbred on February 11, 2010, 04:44:20 PM
Ah, sorry, didn't see your "but one."

Remember back when Nintendo doled out that "seal of quality?" Good times.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 11, 2010, 04:45:55 PM
Kairon just posted a nice shopping list for me...
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 11, 2010, 04:54:12 PM
The merits of the Nintendo Seal have been discussed already once, but since you brought it up again, I'd like to point out that some of the worst NES games came from companies that did shady stuff to get around Nintendo's limits (like creating fake sub-companies so they could release more games).
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: EasyCure on February 11, 2010, 05:10:28 PM
Also, I apologize for any incendiary comments I made earlier on this thread.   EasyCure, I hope that I didn't make you feel like you weren't welcome here.  Most of you guys have been active here longer than I have, and I hope you all understand that I think dissenting opinions are valuable at a site like ours.  We need discussion, discourse, debate.  The problem as I see it is that there's so much of it, and the comments have become so goddamn snarky (I'm at fault here too, before you point fingers) that the discussion goes from polite to attack in no time flat, and that's unfortunate.

*looks at sig*

[quote from EasyCure]Add the following to my post :P ;)[/quote]

I didn't really want to comeback to this particular thread, but the rest of the forums are pretty quiet, and since you called me out by name, I needed to at least respond to you.

Quote
If simply posting an image of every shitty game on a system is enough to prove your point, then why do third parties succeed on the DS?

Because they also release many high quality titles on that system (as they did on PS2) so chances are better of an uninformed consumer standing at a wall of games to pick something decent. Price might also be an issue, as $20-30 for a portable game is an easier pill to swallow than $50+ for a console game. Thats just my two cents though.

Trust me, the last thing I'm trying to do is "fence" off a potential new regular with my "PhD" in "Penis" usage (I forget where that tag even came from, I think it was a comment Easycure made).

Oh no you don't, don't go pinning that one on me! When I said that it was already in your title!
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on February 11, 2010, 05:18:03 PM
As to the issue of the ratio of good games to bad games being completely out of balance, I'm in agreement.  It is out of balance.   I'm really not convinced the ratio is any better on DS, but I'll admit that it is better on PS2.

The root of the issue is that I think we have fundamental disagreements as to WHY this has happened, and I'm not going to kick-start another five pages of this thread by getting into that here. 
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 11, 2010, 05:29:51 PM
The root of the issue is that I think we have fundamental disagreements as to WHY this has happened, and I'm not going to kick-start another five pages of this thread by getting into that here. 
So you'll be starting a new thread? Inquiring minds want to know!
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on February 11, 2010, 05:32:02 PM
Given what's happened here, another thread would only be flamebait.  If you want to send me a PM, I'll talk about it there.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 11, 2010, 06:13:48 PM
Call me crazy, but I don't see how anyone really considers this thread really got out of hand.

It's a shame when people don't want to have conversations on the forums - you either have a low opinion of your fellow forum members or of your own opinion. :(
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on February 11, 2010, 06:16:10 PM
No, we've just already had this conversation before.  We've had it for years now, and I don't have the energy to rehash it again.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 11, 2010, 06:40:41 PM
...but you have the energy to rehash it over PMs?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on February 11, 2010, 06:59:05 PM
Writing a PM doesn't include being told I'm wrong 30 times. 
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 11, 2010, 07:20:11 PM
So... Either you think your opinion is so wrong, everyone will rub it in, or you think us forum members are so bad we'll hammer your opinions for no good reason...

Whichever it is, the main outcome is that we have no conversation. Yay!
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on February 11, 2010, 07:25:59 PM
Well my opinions haven't exactly gone over well in this thread, have they?  ;)   

And of course I don't think my opinion is wrong.  It's MY opinion.  I just know it's not shared. 
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 11, 2010, 08:19:01 PM
Jerks?  Really?  If you don't like it don't buy it.

Um, that was actually my point. We DON'T like shovelware, so we shouldn't buy it (ie: boycott it). If enough of us did that sales would plummet and it would send a message to these (insert word other than jerks here).
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 11, 2010, 08:24:10 PM
The sales are already low - that's what third parties are crying about... And besides *we* already don't buy the shovelware. A boycott by us isn't going to hurt their sales much.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 11, 2010, 08:24:57 PM
Jerks?  Really?  If you don't like it don't buy it.

Um, that was actually my point. We DON'T like shovelware, so we shouldn't buy it (ie: boycott it). If enough of us did that sales would plummet and it would send a message to these (insert word other than jerks here).

Well, didn't Ubisoft and others recently start receiving the message? Several companies have mentioned weakening casual market conditions.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: ThePerm on February 11, 2010, 09:22:33 PM
http://twitter.com/mesattack

Zoo Games Ceo's Twitter page

:P

http://in.us.biz.yahoo.com/e/091221/zooe.ob8-k.html
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Nemo on February 11, 2010, 10:48:10 PM
I really like this thread as a whole. I like to remain optimistic, and still am, but the wall speaks truths deeper than any words really can. I really feel that comparing the Wii Wall-O-Shame against GameCube (previous Nintendo gen), PS2 (previous market leader) or PS3/360 (current console competition), the Wii's line-up would be unfavorable. I really think that there are lot of negative implications on game publishers and casual buyers that I had not considered before reading this thread (I'm a casual forum-goer, so I haven't read other threads where this has been discussed). The good thing for you-and-I, we're not casual buyers. We know to check out reviews to see what's good and what's not before considering a purchase. Also, even if there's an astonishingly higher percentage of bad games than ever before, I think there's still enough fun games for any reasonable gamer.

Here's what I've got from the wall:

UbiSoft
No More Heroes
NitroBike (I kind of regret buying this one)

Activision
Marvel Ultimate Alliance
Guitar Hero III
Guitar Hero: Aerosmith

Electronic Arts
Boom Blox
Beatles Rock Band

THQ
de Blob

Sega
The Conduit

Capcom
Resident Evil 4: Wii Edition
Zak & Wiki: Quest for Barbaros' Treasure

Zoo Games, Majesco, Konami, Take-Two, Namco-Bandai, Square-Enix
none

That's eleven games off the wall of shame... that I bought.

I also have bought some third party games not on the "wall." 

Other Publishers
Pinball Hall of Fame: Williams Collection (Crave Entertainment)
Geometry Wars: Galaxies (Sierra)
Ghostbusters: The Video Game (Atari)

I did the math, and comparing my GameCube and Wii libraries. GameCube was 58% third party; Wii is currently 60% third party. So, I'm still buying a similar ratio of 1st to 3rd party games. There's just also a lot more bad games that I'm not buying (bad or just don't appeal to me).

I don't expect things to change much this generation. It's been 3 and 1/4 years since the Wii first came out. We could expect that the Wii's healthy life cycle is more than half finished. Chances are, a year or two from now, the Wii store shelves still won't be third party gaming heaven. I accept it and I'm fine with it. I'll just keep buying the excellent games that get released.

Games from the Wall that I'm interested in/might buy
Dead Space: Extraction
Tiger Woods: PGA Tour '10
A Boy and His Blob
Tatsunoko vs Capcom
Monster Hunter Tri

Additionally, although I don't own it, I beat Dragon Quest: Swords with a friend. Then, later, I borrowed it and played through it again. (I also intend to buy Dragon Quest X when it comes out.)

Anyhow, I conclude that the Wii is a strange phenomenon with regard to third parties. I, however, find there to be enough games to keep me busy.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 11, 2010, 11:47:26 PM
I really think that there are lot of negative implications on game publishers and casual buyers that I had not considered before reading this thread (I'm a casual forum-goer, so I haven't read other threads where this has been discussed).

Yeah, I think this is true.

The "Wall" isn't so much a situation dealing with extremely educated gamers like us, nor would I argue that it's any definitive proof of quality or lack thereof, but rather it's supposed to illustrate the negative effect that a lack of attempt at differentiation, communication, or education can have on the greater number of less hardcore end consumers.

I think the argument here is that you need to make an effort to have your game stand out from the wall. Whether that effort be in ensuring that your packaging pops (bad cover art is...why god why... T_T), advertising in visible areas (Yes:Life Unexpected, No: Web Ads), generating word of mouth(Alpha Moms anyone?), or simply going out into the real world and having people try your game (like Nintendo has done more than a few times), you need to do more than release a game to market and expect your consumers to do all the work for you. They're the ones spending hard-earned cash on your titles. They need to be wooed a little bit.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 11, 2010, 11:49:19 PM
The 3rd parties are bringing a literal feast to the table of the HD gamers

You mean these discs are edible?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 12, 2010, 01:00:27 AM
The 3rd parties are bringing a literal feast to the table of the HD gamers

You mean these discs are edible?

 I think Mop it up said something along the lines of that somewhere else a little bit ago. They make a great seasoning if you grind them up ;)

I agree with Kairon and Nemo. I'm finding plenty of games on the Wii that are keeping me occupied, primarily from 3rd parties. My wishlist is jamb packed with released and upcoming games. I do expect to eventually get a 360 or PS3 because there are games I'd like to try on both systems that appear great, but I never seem to have the money or time because of all the great titles released  on Wii and DS with the occasional PC title thrown in for good measure. Maybe I just have more eclectic tastes than most Nintendo fans/Wii owners but the Wii has good games in every genre I enjoy and multiple choices that are good.

I find it interesting how people feel the need to boycott good games for peculiar reasons. Like how people were going to not buy No More Heroes 2 because the first one and or future titles might appear on other consoles. Does seeing a title spread out to be released on other systems really offend people that much?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 12, 2010, 01:53:43 AM
Does seeing a title spread out to be released on other systems really offend people that much?

It does if it is perceived as a stab in the back. I don't know if the NMH franchise really fits the bill for that because it not only stayed exclusive to the Wii for a long time, but also got a sequel before becoming multiplatform. But something like RE4 for the GC certainly was offensive. The game was promised as a GC exclusive, but then before it had even been released on the GC Crapcom announced it was also coming to the PS2 and with bonus content. That was a slap in the face to GC owners, and also a betrayal to Nintendo to whom I understand Capcom had made a deal for the game to be exclusive to their system. It was treachery, just like when Benedict Arnold handed over the fort to the enemy.

But AFAIK no promises were ever made about NMH being a Nintendo exclusive for any amount of time, and certainly not forever. It will be upsetting though if the NMH franchise NEVER returns to Nintendo hardware ever again. I think that would be a betrayal of sorts, since the Wii was the crib where that franchise was birthed and nurtured until it could crawl on its own. NMH can wander and explore other rooms, but it sure as hell better come back where it belongs at the end of the day. That's my 2 cents.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 12, 2010, 01:56:02 AM
It just seems like some people are ready to jump on the boycott bandwagon because of trivial things like that and I think it is a shame that they won't try a game for it's own merit.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: D_Average on February 12, 2010, 08:42:05 AM
RE4 going to the PS2 was a slap to the face?  Ok. This is just getting weird now. RE4 is a video game. What's the big deal if more people have access to it?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 12, 2010, 08:51:54 AM
Well, Capcom made a big deal about how it would be Gamecube exclusive and all that and just before they released it they announced that the PS2 will get a port with additional content.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 12, 2010, 09:49:28 AM
RE4 going to the PS2 was a slap to the face?  Ok. This is just getting weird now. RE4 is a video game. What's the big deal if more people have access to it?

Because another console is getting what was promised as an exclusive, and also this other console is getting bonus content. And announcing this before it had even been released on the GC seriously damaged the sales, because most people decided to wait for the PS2 version. The GC needed quality M rated exclusives like that to bolster its sales, especially at that point in its life. It looked like they were going to get it with RE4, but then Crapcom pulled the rug out from under them.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: that Baby guy on February 12, 2010, 10:02:12 AM
There's nothing wrong with a title going multiplatform, from the perspective as a normal consumer.  Looking from a financial perspective, though, the announcement that it would be released on the PS2 with exclusive content definitely should have been made after the GC release.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 12, 2010, 10:11:50 AM
There's nothing wrong with a title going multiplatform, from the perspective as a normal consumer.  Looking from a financial perspective, though, the announcement that it would be released on the PS2 with exclusive content definitely should have been made after the GC release.

Agreed. Capcom FUBARed their own game's sales by doing what they did.They should have pushed the PS2 version's launch back and sat on the announcement until the GC's version had been on the market for a few months.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 12, 2010, 10:26:10 AM
You guys forgot one of the most important parts of the RE4 GC exclusive story.
Mikami promised that it was gonna stay GC exclusive and if it didn't, he would chop off his own head. 1 month before RE4 released on GC, Capcom had that press announcement that the PS2 version would have extra missions and whatever else and be out in 6-7 months.

There were lots of PS2 gamers that were contemplating purchasing a GC just for RE4 who were relieved when they didn't have to since the RE4+ was coming to the PS2.

As promised, Mikami cut off his own head (Capcom) and started his own company. He had no involvement in the RE4 port or RE5, he felt betrayed by his own company and shamed because he couldn't keep his word of exclusivity.

I do think he started a different company before he ended up at Platinum games though, but I'm not 100% sure on that.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 12, 2010, 10:37:16 AM
I admire that he kept true to his word. He was the real talent behind the RE franchise, and that's why RE4 was so awesome and why RE5 sucks ass.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Peachylala on February 12, 2010, 10:41:36 AM
Quote
I do think he started a different company before he ended up at Platinum games though, but I'm not 100% sure on that.
Mikami started Platinum under a different name, but the name crosses my mind at the moment.
 
Still: Nintendo + Platinum = what might be the sexist game ever made.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Halbred on February 12, 2010, 10:45:59 AM
I admire that he kept true to his word. He was the real talent behind the RE franchise, and that's why RE4 was so awesome and why RE5 sucks ass.

It's the same game.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 12, 2010, 10:49:29 AM
I do think he started a different company before he ended up at Platinum games though, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

At first he went with Clover AFAIK which was pretty much a second party to Capcom, once Cap shut them down (after the failure of Okami on the PS2) they founded Platinum instead.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 13, 2010, 12:30:47 PM
One thing I'd like to ask to those who state that Wii owners both enthusiast and non-enthusiast should be "grateful" or "happy" with this stock of third party offerings, is it a bad thing for them to raise their standards beyond these offerings?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 13, 2010, 12:42:14 PM
It's never wrong to want something better. But don't let that blind you to what you've got.

...otherwise poor games like Alien Syndrome don't get any love... T_T
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 13, 2010, 01:54:24 PM
One thing I'd like to ask to those who state that Wii owners both enthusiast and non-enthusiast should be "grateful" or "happy" with this stock of third party offerings, is it a bad thing for them to raise their standards beyond these offerings?
Quote from: Unknown....
For those waiting for third parties to "get their act together" on Wii, you can stop pining.  It ain't gonna happen, not this generation.  That's why I think threads like these are pointless...it's like complaining about Nintendo themselves making more casual-oriented games than "core" games.  It's not going to change no matter how bad you want it to, so at some point you gotta stop complaining, accept it for what it is, and move on.
translated: Lower your standards, bite your tongue, stay misinformed* and take it like a chump.

*<insert link to Nintendo Wall of Glory here>
then :search: casual oriented vs core titles
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 13, 2010, 03:15:52 PM
This thread feels like negative reinforcement. I see a lot of complaining and finger pointing at the mistakes and bad decisions of third-parties, but it seems like whenever they do something right, it is either ignored, or passed off as something nobody wanted, or deemed unacceptable because of other games the company released. This paints the audience as being impossible to please, which gives no incentive for third-parties to try harder. I'm well aware of the conditions which lead to this situation, but I don't agree that blasting third-parties is the solution. What they need is encouragement. Like it or not, the Wii is something completely different marketed towards a different audience, something that third-parties simply aren't used to. They need time, and negativity won't help this.

That's my simple opinion on that. Tear it apart, if you want. I'm going to go play and enjoy some games. :)
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 13, 2010, 03:38:13 PM
I try to reinforce positive behavior in 3rd parties by buying good 3rd party games. I hope that enough people do that so the publishers are encouraged to do better. Sega has made a profit from their core titles they say and EA seems to be getting the hint about the COD titles considering Modern Warfare Reflex is the most awesome FPS I've played on the Wii to date. Each title is getting better and better. No More Heroes 2 is a testament to devs paying attention to the titles we support.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 13, 2010, 03:51:21 PM
Quote
This thread feels like negative reinforcement. I see a lot of complaining and finger pointing at the mistakes and bad decisions of third-parties, but it seems like whenever they do something right, it is either ignored, or passed off as something nobody wanted, or deemed unacceptable because of other games the company released.

The issue really isn't whether or not you or I think they are heading in the right direction.  It's low-info gamers and customers that don't have time to  or just don't want to research games, from, say, Activision because they know they're garbage, or they just look like garbage on the shelf.  The skittishness of buyers for their serious efforts is also due in part to their previous bad games.  Would you buy a car from a guy who sold you a lemon, twice?

And just because you made one good game, doesn't mean all past sins are erased, just like acing the final test will never pass you in a class where you failed all the other tests and never did any homework.

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This paints the audience as being impossible to please, which gives no incentive for third-parties to try harder.

It's one of those things where they probably should have tried harder in the first place.  When you tick off a customer in any industry or commercial enterprise, you are going to have to work that much harder just so you can get his attention again.  You can't go from bad to adequate and expect people to line up for it.  Heck just look at the amount of criticism for games Nintendo has to put up with, and these are the guys who try the hardest.  Did they think their rail shooter spinoff wasn't going under the same scrutiny?

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What they need is encouragement.

What they need is to make better games.  They want a group therapy session after making a bad game?  Are they having problems with their self-esteem?  Seriously?

Quote
Like it or not, the Wii is something completely different marketed towards a different audience, something that third-parties simply aren't used to.

Which audience would that be? (hint: not casuals, their games aimed at them didn't sell.)  How come Nintendo's regular games do alright?  Where is this magical casual audience that was assuredly there?

This thread is like Gordon Ramsay telling a guy to his face why his cooking is bad and why nobody wants to come into the restaurant, and all he hears in return is "You're making me feel negative, and you're hurting my self-esteem."  What the hell would anybody say to that?  Do they want a cookie?  I heard a lot about the "pussification" of games and gamers recently, but I never thought it would come to the "pussification" of entire game companies.  Jeez Louise!

EDIT: I will say that I do appreciate them trying harder, and do intend to buy their better efforts (I do have quite a number of third party games, after all.)  But when they cop that whiny attitude about their own self-applied plight or when they blame everybody else at the first sign of failure or trouble, it really saps any sympathy I might have for them.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 13, 2010, 04:57:35 PM
I commend all the hardcore gamers who aren't letting internet vitriol ruin their ability to enjoy great games.

However, as pointed out before, this Wall isn't so much affecting us, the small contingent of proactive and educated gamers, it's affecting the vastly larger audience of non-crazy-internet-researching game players. THAT's the mass audience of Wii owners that third parties need to reach out to and capture, and that's the audience that Nintendo has obviously had good relationships with seeing the continueing evergeeen sales of their titles, even two+ year old ones.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 13, 2010, 05:04:38 PM
And just because you made one good game, doesn't mean all past sins are erased
That is true. However, just because they've made bad games doesn't mean the good ones should be overlooked or passed on or deemed "not enough" which is the general tone I get from this thread. I also feel as if certain games are being deemed bad just because they do not appeal to most of the people who frequent this website. I do agree third-parties at this point could be putting in more effort, but where I disagree is the method of handling the problem.

It's one of those things where they probably should have tried harder in the first place.
This is one point I don't understand. Looking at this from a business perspective, would it have been such a wise decision to support the Wii from day one? The Wii has a completely different development architecture, is marketed at an expended audience, and is a successor to a low-selling, last place console. What company in their right mind would invest billions into a venue when the results were completely unknown? Now, maybe, MAYBE, after the first 12-24 months and it become apparent that the Wii was a hit, perhaps some third parties could have tried giving it some of their franchise games to see how they sell. But I can still see how this could be viewed as risky, as the market is still kind of an unknown. So it makes sense that they stick with the "safe" development for XBox 360 and PS3 because that's what they are used to and their games do have a higher chance of selling.

What they need is to make better games.
I'm afraid I read this statement as "What they need is to make games that appeal to me and my ilk."

Which audience would that be? (hint: not casuals, their games aimed at them didn't sell.)  How come Nintendo's regular games do alright?  Where is this magical casual audience that was assuredly there?
The audience? Everyone. Mostly though, the Wii marketing focused on people who have either never played games, or never had much of an interest before. However, I don't think that this is a new trend for Nintendo. I feel they have always been this way. Ever since their inception, Nintendo has released lots of relatively simple games aimed at a wide audience, of people from all age groups. With the Wii, Nintendo has finally found the massive success that they've been pursuing ever since the NES.

Nintendo has always done things differently and that's why they've always had trouble courting third-parties.

But when they cop that whiny attitude about their own self-applied plight or when they blame everybody else at the first sign of failure or trouble, it really saps any sympathy I might have for them.
I do agree that third-parties could have handled this situation better than what we've seen. Unfortunately, what they may need is a helping hand rather than a brigade of people pointing out every little fault. When someone from a foreign country is trying to learn English, would you point out every little spelling and grammar mistake and tell them they suck and aren't putting in effort, or would you commend them on what they got right and tell them you'd like to see some improvements? Which method is more encouraging?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 13, 2010, 05:15:36 PM
I think there's an essential difference between some of Nintendo's games.... I mean, look at Metroid Prime 3 and Mario Kart. Third Parties should be trying to capture and earn the trust of all the people who bought Mario Kart, but DIDN'T buy Metroid Prime.... I mean, I'm not saying a Mario kart clone, those are tough to do, but some different games that appeal to that same segment of at least, what, 18 million gamers?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 13, 2010, 05:20:44 PM
Do any third-parties know how to do that, though? Is that a type of game that they have experience creating, or would want to play themselves? I think what many third-parties need is time to adjust to the Wii, and also incentive. People need to give them both.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 13, 2010, 05:29:10 PM
Do any third-parties know how to do that, though? Is that a type of game that they have experience creating, or would want to play themselves? I think what many third-parties need is time to adjust to the Wii, and also incentive. People need to give them both.

I think that's reasonable. The Wii changes up so much conventional wisdom, so that's not unexpected.

Though there are, what, 56 different third party titles that have shipped a million units on the Wii worldwide? You'd have to figure that they're getting some idea by now of what things matter to gamers.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 13, 2010, 05:39:54 PM
I thought of another question. Do the people who own Mario Kart Wii WANT another game of a similar type?

Using myself as an example, having that one game is enough for me, I have no real desire for another racing game. That's the reason why I passed up ExciteBots when it was released, and didn't buy it until I found it on sale. It actually stayed sealed for about a month before I played it, and now that I'm done with it, I've gone right back to Mario Kart.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 13, 2010, 05:42:06 PM
Yeah, I don't think a direct Mario Kart clone is the way to go. But I'd like to think that you're looking at a demographic 18 million strong (people who bought Mario kart, but not metroid Prime) who show a clear interest in games (Mario Kart is a real game, thank you very much), so the question is, how do you address their needs?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 13, 2010, 05:46:49 PM
That's a tough question. ExciteBots is a vastly different type of racing game than Mario Kart and I still wasn't interested enough to buy it at full retail price. Are you asking if third-parties can create a game which appeals to these people that isn't a racing game? Because if that's the case, I have no idea what kind of associations to make in order to determine what kind of games everyone who purchased Mario Kart and not a game like Metroid Prime would like (I have Metroid Prime 3 so I guess I don't fit into this demographic...). I'm sure third-parties have asked similar questions and had real trouble coming up with answers.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 13, 2010, 06:15:42 PM
That's a fair criticism, but I think it's at least a starting point. It's funny, we never had the same problems on the PS2 when that vast demographic was being served.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 13, 2010, 08:03:30 PM
The PS2 didn't have a super-strong first party that all the third parties felt they couldn't compete against.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 13, 2010, 08:10:19 PM
Quote
That is true. However, just because they've made bad games doesn't mean the good ones should be overlooked or passed on or deemed "not enough" which is the general tone I get from this thread.

Nobody is saying that you should overlook them, just why they are being overlooked.  Don't know where you got the idea that this thread's original intent was a call to boycott third parties.

Quote
Looking at this from a business perspective, would it have been such a wise decision to support the Wii from day one?

Yes it would have, obviously.  I think from seeing that massive line at E3 2006 could have probably tipped them off that it was going to be a big hit and should have seen the potential.  But especially after it rocketed to the top in 2007 and basically began to outpace everybody they should have changed their entire approach.  They needed to have the kind of foresight to read trends.  But instead, they read wrong on a "casual boom," and read wrong on Wii made a bunch of garbage, and more's the pity.

Quote
I'm afraid I read this statement as "What they need is to make games that appeal to me and my ilk."

No.  Most of their games get horrible reviews AND sell basically nothing despite it.  Commercial and critical failures = bad games, period.  They needed to have made better ones, and marketed them way better.

Quote
The audience? Everyone.

So the "completely different audience" the Wii is aimed at is "everyone?"  And all those casual games failed, right?  So everyone hates casual games right?  Just looking at the games Nintendo has published, I'm just not seeing all this difference.  Sure the Wii itself might have been marketed initially, through commercials, showing off the new motion controller and showing people having fun and all that, but that doesn't mean that's the entire userbase.  Which ones did most of the third parties focus on though?  The non-existant "Casual Market."  And they were cranking out some 20 games a year, not realizing these games were killing their reputation and flooding the market.  Only a few sold well in the early years, and virtually none sold well at all in 2009.  Any that reached a modicum of success were squarely in the $20-$30 impulse range. 

They've treated this "new audience" (i.e. everybody) like idiots thinking they'd buy all this cheap crap.  When it all failed, the cocky attitude turns to sourness at people who proved smarter than they thought.

Quote
Unfortunately, what they may need is a helping hand rather than a brigade of people pointing out every little fault.

All the constructive criticism was given for years prior to this.  When they started pointing fingers at others is when the constructive criticism stops.  You can only tolerate so much.

Quote
When someone from a foreign country is trying to learn English, would you point out every little spelling and grammar mistake and tell them they suck and aren't putting in effort, or would you commend them on what they got right and tell them you'd like to see some improvements? Which method is more encouraging?

All have tried the latter.  It didn't take, they didn't improve, and when they fail again, they blame the teacher, the language, the country, etc.  These walls are simply showing that their mistakes are their mistakes, not anybody else's. 

The constructive criticism is to make better games, market them better, and stop acting like you know what the "Wii audience" wants, when it's pretty clear that they don't.  Fans have been saying that here.  Customers have been indirectly saying it by not buying their shovelware.  Besides, nobody is "blasting" third parties by simply posting their entire libraries and noticing that most are pretty bad and commercial failures to boot.  It's just a mirror to the truth, what your average customer sees when he looks at a Wii game rack.  He apparently thinks most third party games are crappy too.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Invincible Donkey Kong on February 13, 2010, 08:29:22 PM
Third parties need to step it up considerably in quality if they want to have a competitive edge against our own games.  We aren't going to "feel sorry" for their lack of effort and step down our own quality just to appease their weak selves.  If you **** in the pot then it's only right you're stuck eating it.  :reggie:
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 13, 2010, 08:50:28 PM
Nobody is saying that you should overlook them, just why they are being overlooked.  Don't know where you got the idea that this thread's original intent was a call to boycott third parties.
I try to look at things in a positive way, and there's no way this thread is positive. The opening line contains the phrase "So here's some fresh, steaming negativity."

I think from seeing that massive line at E3 2006 could have probably tipped them off that it was going to be a big hit and should have seen the potential. But especially after it rocketed to the top in 2007 and basically began to outpace everybody they should have changed their entire approach.  They needed to have the kind of foresight to read trends.  But instead, they read wrong on a "casual boom," and read wrong on Wii made a bunch of garbage, and more's the pity.
Would have been a big hit with whom? Nintendo talked about blue ocean this and non-gaming that, I don't see where third-parties would have gotten an indication that their existing franchise games would sell on Wii. Most of the types of games Nintendo creates are pretty different than what third-parties produce, and the Wii hardware is vastly different than other systems that third-parties are used to. The ones who tried emulating certain popular Nintendo games like Wii Sports and Nintendogs didn't work out to well because those people probably didn't want to create those games, or at least didn't understand what people look for in those games. Sticking with what they know (XBox360 and PS3 development) seemed like the best course of action for them, and I don't blame them. I'm not so sure third-parties would have reached the Wii audience if they tried, but that's just me.

So the "completely different audience" the Wii is aimed at is "everyone?"  And all those casual games failed, right?  So everyone hates casual games right?  Just looking at the games Nintendo has published, I'm just not seeing all this difference.  Sure the Wii itself might have been marketed initially, through commercials, showing off the new motion controller and showing people having fun and all that, but that doesn't mean that's the entire userbase.  Which ones did most of the third parties focus on though?  The non-existant "Casual Market."
I don't see much evidence of a non-existent "casual" market when Nintendo's top-sellers are things like Wii Sports, Wii Fit, and their traditional relatively simple games like Mario Kart Wii and New Super Mario Brothers Wii which I would argue have always been aimed at the "casual" market (including many of Nintendo's other franchises). I think you may be underestimating the knowledge of the "casual" market. If those third-party games are bad, the casuals stopped buying them, and stuck with Nintendo because they know their games are quality.

I'm sure we could debate over exactly who makes up the majority of the Wii audience, and there's probably no way to know for sure. Myself, I think it is pretty different than the people who own an XBox 360 and PS3, and the typical games that third-parties release on those systems would find lessor sales on Wii. See Call of Duty as an example.

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The constructive criticism is to make better games, market them better, and stop acting like you know what the "Wii audience" wants, when it's pretty clear that they don't.
I agree with this. However, personally, and unfortunately, I believe it will take longer than three years. I also think the industry could use some fresh faces, the types of people who enjoy games like Wii Sports, Wii Fit, Just Dance, and all of those such games, and would actually WANT to create such games. We might not see much change without this, as the Wii doesn't seem to be a platform that third-parties want to develop games for. Oh well, it could be their loss more than ours, I should think.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 13, 2010, 08:59:16 PM
Can someone define "casual" to me?

Because, as someone who sells video games, I can say people of all creeds have purchased NSMBWii.  I've spoken with all kinds of gamers (and non-gamers) that have bought it, played it and loved it.

To say NSMBWii is a "casual" title is crazy.  It's just a great game that *anyone* can love.

Why can't third parties come up with something like this?  Instead of spending 10x$, 10xTime, and 10xPeople making 10 games of lesser quality that only sell a small amount, why not take all that time, money and effort and create a great game that appeals to everyone and sells crap tons in the process?

Now, I don't expect third parties to churn out NSMBWii-level games non-stop (my wallet couldn't handle it!) but less focus on quantity and more focus on quality.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 13, 2010, 09:06:22 PM
Honestly, I don't know what a "casual" game is. I actually took it to mean a game which just about anybody can play and enjoy. These are the kinds of games that Nintendo creates, as they always have. Third-parties tend to create games for the "hardcore" gaming mood, ones that you have to invest a lot of time into to get the most out of it, and where experience with games makes it easier to play. For someone who's never played a game before, I wouldn't pop in Halo 3, MGS4, GTA4, etc., and hand them a controller.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Ymeegod on February 13, 2010, 09:07:55 PM
"No.  Most of their games get horrible reviews AND sell basically nothing despite it.  Commercial and critical failures = bad games, period.  They needed to have made better ones, and marketed them way better."

That's not the case with the WII---and that's the main problem.  Games like Ubisoft's Just Dance got crap for reviews yet it's their best selling game.  Vrs No More Heroes 2 (88 avg score) which didn't even sell 40K during it's launch week.  Hardcore games simply don't sell, even Big N own hardcore games haven't done much as someone pointed out Excite series, FE, or the BW.  Even last gen on the GC, Big N couldn't push alot of it's hardcore games out the door, ED anyhow or what about Geist?

What's selling besides Mario?  Music games or fitness ones and that's just about it.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Peachylala on February 13, 2010, 09:36:52 PM
That's not the case with the WII---and that's the main problem.  Games like Ubisoft's Just Dance got crap for reviews yet it's their best selling game.  Vrs No More Heroes 2 (88 avg score) which didn't even sell 40K during it's launch week.  Hardcore games simply don't sell, even Big N own hardcore games haven't done much as someone pointed out Excite series, FE, or the BW.  Even last gen on the GC, Big N couldn't push alot of it's hardcore games out the door, ED anyhow or what about Geist?
Here's the problem with what you posted, those games are no where near close to the triple A quality that Nintendo's top studios make. To me, these are good but not great games, but Geist? Seriously? That game was utter failure. ED's hype basically killed it, along with the lack of advertising. (promised a 60+ hour game, lasted fifteen tops)

Quote
What's selling besides Mario?  Music games or fitness ones and that's just about it.
Pro's Nintendo Wall of Fame says hi.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Ymeegod on February 13, 2010, 09:56:57 PM
Might want to take a better look at nintendo's wall because alot of those games didnt break 1/2 million mark.  ED was rated at 90ish, Geist was rated 80ish which is higher that any of the Fits, Sports, or Mario knockoff games yet they didn't sell even though it was the same publisher. 

Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 14, 2010, 12:53:22 AM
This thread is like Gordon Ramsay telling a guy to his face why his cooking is bad and why nobody wants to come into the restaurant, and all he hears in return is "You're making me feel negative, and you're hurting my self-esteem."

Human psychology makes just flaming somebody an ineffective way of having them actually change but unlike Mr so-called Ramsay we're talking about gigantic multinational megacorps, not individuals.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 14, 2010, 01:24:27 AM
"No.  Most of their games get horrible reviews AND sell basically nothing despite it.  Commercial and critical failures = bad games, period.  They needed to have made better ones, and marketed them way better."

That's not the case with the WII---and that's the main problem.  Games like Ubisoft's Just Dance got crap for reviews yet it's their best selling game.  Vrs No More Heroes 2 (88 avg score) which didn't even sell 40K during it's launch week.  Hardcore games simply don't sell, even Big N own hardcore games haven't done much as someone pointed out Excite series, FE, or the BW.  Even last gen on the GC, Big N couldn't push alot of it's hardcore games out the door, ED anyhow or what about Geist?

What's selling besides Mario?  Music games or fitness ones and that's just about it.

Most people do not check review sites for scores before buying a game. A lot of the big sellers sell by word of mouth. Legit word of mouth, mind you, like the people who talk in their MOPS group or at school. Forum word of mouth is much weaker I would argue. So if No More Heroes 2 has a lot of internet buzz but no one is talking about it at work or school or at your other activities then it's not going to get momentum.

Also, Wii is slow burn. So NMH2 will perform fine in the long run.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Deguello on February 14, 2010, 04:30:14 AM
Quote
That's not the case with the WII---and that's the main problem.  Games like Ubisoft's Just Dance got crap for reviews yet it's their best selling game.  Vrs No More Heroes 2 (88 avg score) which didn't even sell 40K during it's launch week.

I'm starting to agree with BlacknMild.  There's only so many times you can repeat the point of the thread before you're sure people who don't get it are ignoring you on purpose.  I meant better gameS (plural) in the sense of the majority of their schlock.  Sure No More Heroes 2 got good reviews.  But their reputations for making games like that was tarnished by Cook Wars and and Tely Addicts and Cosmic Family that most customers rebuffed.  That's the point.

Besides I wasn't even talking about that game, I was responding to Mop saying that a lot of these games just "weren't for me" when it's pretty clear that, since they were commercial failures as well as critical failures, that meant THOSE games were bad games.  And since most of those were the games they published for years, it DOES have an effect on word of mouth for that company.  Cue No More Heroes selling poorly, because regular consumers think UBISoft makes a bunch of crap, which they do.

Quote
Might want to take a better look at nintendo's wall because alot of those games didnt break 1/2 million mark.  ED was rated at 90ish, Geist was rated 80ish which is higher that any of the Fits, Sports, or Mario knockoff games yet they didn't sell even though it was the same publisher.

Amazingly, half a million is still more than all these casual third party disasters.  And why is Mario discounted so flippantly, as if he hasn't been in a string of high quality games since the beginning of time?  Is he "casual" now?  How can Zelda sell 5+ million on Wii?  What about Smash Brothers' 9 million?  Is that a "Mario" game because he's in it? 

Just Dance is performing well because it's a budget title in a familiar genre for Wii owners, because DDR has been somewhat of a small success on the Wii.  But if you think this is "the answer" for third parties, you are making the same mistake they did all those years ago, when they thought "casual games" were the answer.  It's still not out-performing Nintendo's marquee titles.  So if UBISoft cranks out a sequel in the next 4 months they are going to wonder where the "fickle" Wii audience went, the ones who bought a budget title during Christmas.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 14, 2010, 08:33:38 AM
That's not the case with the WII---and that's the main problem.  Games like Ubisoft's Just Dance got crap for reviews yet it's their best selling game.

Do crap reviews really mean something? These reviews are often written for the "hardcore" audience. What, the HC don't like Just Dance? No ****, they aren't the ones buying it by the million either. Most if not all game review sites are focused on hardcore gamers who want to play games in marathon sessions and their scores are meaningless to the expanded audience. Look at Wii Sports, review average around 75 but it's a fucking killer app if there ever was one. It was so good that people bought the system over it! It's not because these people are easily impressed either or those 95+% average titles on earlier or competing consoles would have impressed them even more.

Look at what these "casual" gamers say AFTER buying the game. You know what they're saying about Just Dance? They love it! Averages 4.5/5 stars after over 40 reviews with almost none below 4 stars! Want to see real shovelware? Try Big League Sports, review average 1 star after 6 reviews with only one giving 2 stars.


EDIT: Those are user reviews on Amazon
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: ShyGuy on February 14, 2010, 08:57:33 AM
I saw Spyborgs for $10 at Gamestop yesterday and I was tempted to get it.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 14, 2010, 01:48:22 PM
I think KDR has a point there. We should really not be looking at metacritic scores and instead be looking at Amazon reviews. Because that is actually showing what the userbase is buying and enjoying.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 14, 2010, 02:09:02 PM
And by reviews, you need to look at the good reviews... not the one star "Nintendo IZ KIEEDDIEZ!" reviews written by 10 year olds. Unfortunately, those types of reviews are common. I also see a lot of one star reviews from people bitching about the seller. Umm, you write reviews about the product, not the ones selling it.

Morons.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 14, 2010, 02:41:32 PM
Obviously consumer reviews aren't relevant, because customers don't know what they want and don't know what a good game is.

By the way, can anyone tell me who Gordon Ramsay is?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_Lindy on February 14, 2010, 02:59:24 PM
Gordon Ramsay is a chef who is the host of several shows, all of which feature him swearing profusely.  There's a reality show called Hell's Kitchen where he picks the top chef out of several contestants, and another in which he takes failing restaurants and turns them around.  He obviously very smart and probably a great chef, but his gimmick is that he's a straight shooter with extreme potty mouth.

As for the Amazon review stuff, you can apply the same logic to movies.  The critics hated Transformers 2, but as of January 2010 it's grossed over $400 million in the U.S.  Does that make it a good movie?  No.  Does it matter?  Not really.  But it's an indication that the quality of something in the eyes of critics is entirely different than what sells to consumers that aren't looking at it with a critical eye.

Most consumers just want to be entertained for a little while, and aren't concerned about whether or not something stacks up against the critical darlings of its medium.  This is exactly the audience that Nintendo strove to reach with Wii, and they knocked it out of the park.  Sony and Microsoft didn't strive to reach that market; they chose to gear their systems towards high-concept, high-production-value games.  That's why they're getting those types of games now.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 14, 2010, 04:24:59 PM
Most consumers just want to be entertained for a little while, and aren't concerned about whether or not something stacks up against the critical darlings of its medium.  This is exactly the audience that Nintendo strove to reach with Wii, and they knocked it out of the park.  Sony and Microsoft didn't strive to reach that market; they chose to gear their systems towards high-concept, high-production-value games.  That's why they're getting those types of games now.

The HD consoles strove to reach the sorts of game that resemble Summer Blockbusters. I love me a Summer Blockbuster, but I'm hoping that the Wii can provide the equivalent of movies that come out at all other times of the year, from feel-good romantic comedies, family friendly action-adventure fare, to obscure, modest, but provocative indie flicks.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 14, 2010, 05:19:41 PM
The idea of putting the blockbuster games on the 360/PS3 because that's where the audience is isn't a good one.

I'd guess (I'd love to see some hard stats) that 50-75% of PS3/360 owners also have a Wii.  With a "blockbuster" Wii title, you'd have a chance at a good percentage of PS3/360 owners *and* the Wii's larger audience.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 14, 2010, 11:14:56 PM
And by reviews, you need to look at the good reviews... not the one star "Nintendo IZ KIEEDDIEZ!" reviews written by 10 year olds. Unfortunately, those types of reviews are common. I also see a lot of one star reviews from people bitching about the seller. Umm, you write reviews about the product, not the ones selling it.

Morons.

Well, the reviews I cited there were well written and lengthy, the angry ones specifically pointed at the game's failings.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: broodwars on February 15, 2010, 12:01:48 AM
Most consumers just want to be entertained for a little while, and aren't concerned about whether or not something stacks up against the critical darlings of its medium.  This is exactly the audience that Nintendo strove to reach with Wii, and they knocked it out of the park.  Sony and Microsoft didn't strive to reach that market; they chose to gear their systems towards high-concept, high-production-value games.  That's why they're getting those types of games now.

The HD consoles strove to reach the sorts of game that resemble Summer Blockbusters. I love me a Summer Blockbuster, but I'm hoping that the Wii can provide the equivalent of movies that come out at all other times of the year, from feel-good romantic comedies, family friendly action-adventure fare, to obscure, modest, but provocative indie flicks.

Interesting that you would say that just a little over a week before Heavy Rain comes out on the PS3, and if that isn't an "Indie film" game I don't know what is.  ;)

My big problem with 3rd party games on the Wii is that most of the best games are like candy: they're cheap and fun while they last, but there doesn't tend to be much to them and when you're done with them you probably don't want another.  I enjoyed both No More Heroes games to a point, but once I finished them I knew I would never play them again.  For some strange reason, my Wii games feel expendable in a way I haven't seen with any of my other consoles.  I'm really hoping to someday see a 3rd party release something equivalent to an experience like Metroid Prime 3 or even Fire Emblem - Radiant Dawn: something meaty that I can really dig into, and when I'm done I probably want to go back and play it again.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 15, 2010, 12:07:13 AM
I'd guess (I'd love to see some hard stats) that 50-75% of PS3/360 owners also have a Wii.
I wonder what that number is myself, though personally I think it is lower than that. One thing which seems to hold true is that people prefer the XBox 360 or PS3 versions of multi-platform games over the Wii version, so any big "blockbuster title" would have to be exclusive to Wii in order to attract attention.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 15, 2010, 01:35:15 AM
I'd guess (I'd love to see some hard stats) that 50-75% of PS3/360 owners also have a Wii.
I wonder what that number is myself, though personally I think it is lower than that. One thing which seems to hold true is that people prefer the XBox 360 or PS3 versions of multi-platform games over the Wii version, so any big "blockbuster title" would have to be exclusive to Wii in order to attract attention.

Guess that makes me in the minority as I will go for the Wii version first whenever given the chance unless the Wii version is a disaster.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 15, 2010, 05:11:51 AM
What "Blockbuster" games have been multi-platform and on the Wii so far?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_Lindy on February 15, 2010, 08:46:02 AM
My big problem with 3rd party games on the Wii is that most of the best games are like candy: they're cheap and fun while they last, but there doesn't tend to be much to them and when you're done with them you probably don't want another.

This is sort of the point I'm trying to make.  This is EXACTLY the type of quick-hit gaming that Nintendo wanted to engender with the design and marketing of Wii, and they executed it perfectly.  Most third-party titles go along with this concept.  The Wii was never really sold as a platform for huge, expansive, immersive gaming, so it's not getting those games.  It's not like Nintendo came out of the gate and said, "We want the Wii to be the pre-eminent MMORPG platform of this generation".  No, instead they said, "We want Wii to be the platform that all gamers can enjoy, regardless of age, gender, or how much time you can spend playing."  It's no surprise that games like "Demon's Souls" aren't made for it.  The platform was never sold as being meant for the audience of those games, ever.  Over time, that audience never really materialized either, so there you go.

The idea of putting the blockbuster games on the 360/PS3 because that's where the audience is isn't a good one.

I'd guess (I'd love to see some hard stats) that 50-75% of PS3/360 owners also have a Wii.  With a "blockbuster" Wii title, you'd have a chance at a good percentage of PS3/360 owners *and* the Wii's larger audience.

"Isn't a good one"?  That's crazy talk.  People that already own a PS3/360 and a Wii are buying those types of titles...on PS3/360.  Why on earth would they even bother with anything like that in the Wii library when there's 10 similar - and better - games on PS3/360?  And by "better" I mean more immersive graphics and a larger, more expansive game world, excellent online capabilities and integration, and substantial downloadable content.  Basically what you're saying here is that, for example, Bethesda would have been smarter to release Fallout 3 on Wii, and I would say that that is absolute nonsense.  It wouldn't have been half the game it is on the other platforms, and it wouldn't have sold nearly as much, because the audience for it isn't on Wii.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 15, 2010, 09:36:52 AM
The audience isn't there because they never brought that game, or any game similar to it, to build the audience in the first place.

And there are plenty of people that would pick up a Wii version over the HD version simply for better control scheme. Too bad no gamer has ever really been put in the situation of having to choose since no big "blockbuster" titles have been released at the same time on a HD system and Wii. And I'm talking about games on the level of GTA, Final Fantasy or even Fallout 3.

It just hasn't happened so it's pointless to even have a debate over why there is no audience. It's a chicken vs egg conversation. These same types of games were made last generation on the graphically weakest system and there was no issue with making Grand Epic and expansive gaming. Most developers/publishers are treating the Wii like it is a spin-off of a gaming system and therefore doesn't deserve the respect and attention that the other consoles (past and present) get. They need to Raise Their Standards just as we have Raised Our Expectations. It's as simple as that.

how do I always get sucked back into this thread.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on February 15, 2010, 09:46:04 AM
Quote from: BlackNMild2k1 link=topic=30478.msg585938#msg585938
These same types of games were made last generation on the graphically weakest system and there was no issue with making Grand Epic and expansive gaming.

The difference between the PS2 and the Xbox/Gamecube, as compared to the difference between the Wii and the Xbox 360/PS3, is hardly the same.  The two gaps are miles apart.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 15, 2010, 10:02:57 AM
Doesn't mean the same type of games can't be made across both.
The Wii is not a leper that requires you make it something completely different and separate. Epic gaming wasn't invented on the HD consoles.

Why does almost every developer feel that the same games they were making last gen are only suitable now for HD systems and to make the same game with lesser graphics is impossible and there is no audience for them. Who bought 62 million Wiis? who was buying those same games on the 120million* PS2's?

Lots of us are the same gamers that were gaming on the same games as last gen. Now we are an under-served community who are just tired of being fed table scraps, left-overs and steaming piles of crap. There is nothing about the Wii that is so different to what we've already had (other than pointer controls) that it requires a radically different approach to game genre, scope, appearance, content and effort.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 15, 2010, 10:06:06 AM
Quote from: BlackNMild2k1 link=topic=30478.msg585938#msg585938
These same types of games were made last generation on the graphically weakest system and there was no issue with making Grand Epic and expansive gaming.

The difference between the PS2 and the Xbox/Gamecube, as compared to the difference between the Wii and the Xbox 360/PS3, is hardly the same.  The two gaps are miles apart.

Then how come Modern Warfare ported beautifully to Wii? The gap may be larger, but that doesn't mean that it's not possible to port it. And MW Reflex is selling well on Wii.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on February 15, 2010, 10:08:59 AM
I didn't claim it was impossible to port.  I simply said that the differences aren't comparable, so to suggest that "well, least powerful didn't matter LAST gen!" is a completely flawed argument.  Certainly, porting is more difficult than it was before, from PS2 to Gamecube.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 15, 2010, 10:11:14 AM
And I wasn't arguing about which system was least powerful last gen, but that the systems of last gen are weaker than the Wii and the weakest of them all was getting the same games that the HD systems are getting today yet seem to almost never make their way over to the Wii. Why is that?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on February 15, 2010, 10:15:15 AM
Well, it's not about whether the Wii is capable of running the software, obviously.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 15, 2010, 10:24:34 AM
What "Blockbuster" games have been multi-platform and on the Wii so far?

As I've stated before, Modern Warfare Reflex is an occasion of this. Sure, it was late, but since I tend to be late at buying many games I chose the version with what I view as the superior control options. Also, Guitar Heroes I would argue are blockbuster games.

I would buy more of them if more were released multi-platform. But interestingly enough, most of the ones that have been multiplatform were games that universally flopped (Alone in the Dark) or released broken. Godfather on Wii sold comparably to the other versions and was a quality port.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 15, 2010, 10:28:10 AM
Well, it's not about whether the Wii is capable of running the software, obviously.

Obviously. It's about developers feeling the Wii is not worthy of the effort and therefore most of them don't even try.

On basically the only example of a big title being on all 3 systems at somewhere around the same time, Guitar Hero 3 (?), it sold best on the Wii, or atleast significantly outsold the PS3 version, and it probably would have cost less to put a team on porting it to the Wii with SD assets than it would to port it over to the PS3 and optimize it. ROI was obviously better on the Wii version than it was on the PS3/HD version so why can't that be used as an example of where the gaming audience is?

I believe TW10 sold best on the Wii too, so it's can't be that there aren't any gamers that wouldn't buy the Wii version over the HD version if they had the chance either.

So what is it about the Wii that makes developers/publishers so confused that they sign off of almost nothing but low budget crap or low profile gaming that they wouldn't even bother to advertise?

Some might say that they don't believe the audience it there. Well, how would they know? When have they released a game that would interest that audience, informed the world that it was being developed and then advertised so that we knew when it came out? To be honest, they haven't..... yet.

edit: Stratos, how can you consider MW[reflex] a blockbuster? When has a blockbuster movie ever gotten a quiet release under the blanket of it's sequels release? MW2 on the HD systems was a Blockbuster title as it got the blockbuster advertising and marketing that it needed. MW[reflex] got no such treatment.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_Lindy on February 15, 2010, 01:08:28 PM
The audience isn't there because they never brought that game, or any game similar to it, to build the audience in the first place.

Neither did Nintendo, and last time I checked, they built the hardware so they had first crack at making games for it.  Therefore, they had the first opportunity to build an audience for any type of game they wanted, and chose to focus on titles like Wii Sports.  This is what I mean when I say that third parties cannot solely be blamed for the lack of an audience for certain game genres on Wii.

ROI was obviously better on the Wii version than it was on the PS3/HD version so why can't that be used as an example of where the gaming audience is?

You would think so, but you also don't know how many hours of coding were required to bring the Wii's online experience up to par with the PS3/360 online experience.  It may have required more work than the other two platforms, since Sony and Microsoft probably have better networking development support, tools, and middleware than Nintendo.  You rarely see Wii games with the level of seamless online integration that the Guitar Hero games have, which leads me to believe that the quality online component of the GH games has more to do with extra work done by Vicarious Visions rather than anything Nintendo is supplying them.  Guitar Hero is also a bad example since its graphics are pretty simplistic, and don't vary much from platform to platform.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Urkel on February 15, 2010, 01:31:38 PM
Quote
Therefore, they had the first opportunity to build an audience for any type of game they wanted, and chose to focus on titles like Wii Sports.

Factually inaccurate. (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=30619.0)
 
Quote

 This is what I mean when I say that third parties cannot solely be blamed for the lack of an audience for certain game genres on Wii.


Third parties cry manly tears when they have to compete with Nintendo. If Nintendo had made some online FPS the first year Wii was out, you'd be saying how third parties are justified in not bringing those kinds of games to the system because they have to compete with Brown Shooter Wii, so they're better off sticking to the HD consoles.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 15, 2010, 01:41:19 PM
Nintendo is damned if they do and damned if they don't. It's already known that Nintendo doesn't make certain types of games and relies on 3rd parties to fill those genres. Nintendo purposely doesn't make certain types of games to allow 3rd parties to have a sector of the market to thrive in. Now Nintendo is at fault for not making those games where if they did, 3rd parties would be complaining about not being able to compete with Nintendo since they already make this type of game and blah blah blah.
all I see is a long line with shame on one end and blame on the other. All that's happening is 3rd parties are connecting both ends. Now we have a circle of shame and blame.

As far a GH3 is concerned though, it may be a bad example, but I've yet to see anyone present a better one. There aren't many big games that got marketed and released on the Wii/PS3/360 at the same time.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 15, 2010, 02:02:15 PM
The audience isn't there because they never brought that game, or any game similar to it, to build the audience in the first place.

Neither did Nintendo, and last time I checked, they built the hardware so they had first crack at making games for it.  Therefore, they had the first opportunity to build an audience for any type of game they wanted, and chose to focus on titles like Wii Sports.  This is what I mean when I say that third parties cannot solely be blamed for the lack of an audience for certain game genres on Wii.

Actually, Ubisoft was there early in launch period with a slew of core games. Most were ports, and most were poorly ported but... Far Cry Vengeance was my favorite FPS in the Wii launch period.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 15, 2010, 02:20:54 PM
Interesting that you would say that just a little over a week before Heavy Rain comes out on the PS3, and if that isn't an "Indie film" game I don't know what is.  ;)

I know right! GAH!

And FLOW should have been on Wii too! And Little Big Planet!
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stogi on February 15, 2010, 03:01:59 PM
The only thing that makes me sad and kinda pissed off is the lack of ingenuity. If I were a full-time artist, and I had been solely working with a mouse to draw things in Photoshop, imagine my excitement to learn about a digital pad and pen. Now if I were a videogame designer, who has only been working with buttons and sticks, you could only imagine my excitement to learn about the Wiimote. I would have probably **** myself the first time Nintendo invited me to play WiiSports. I wouldn't think about graphics or consoles or marketing or competition; I would think to myself "this is going to change everything." Then I would start working on the possibilities.

Too bad the industry isn't me.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: broodwars on February 15, 2010, 03:12:06 PM
Interesting that you would say that just a little over a week before Heavy Rain comes out on the PS3, and if that isn't an "Indie film" game I don't know what is.  ;)

I know right! GAH!

And FLOW should have been on Wii too! And Little Big Planet!

Don't forget Flower and Mod Nation Racers.  ;)   Though to be fair, MNR and LBP are incredibly reliant on the community aspect, something Nintendo has completely shunned with the Wii.  I don't know if those games could thrive being offline only or using the incredibly meager online of something like Smash Bros. Brawl's stage creator.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 15, 2010, 03:35:39 PM
The only thing that makes me sad and kinda pissed off is the lack of ingenuity. If I were a full-time artist, and I had been solely working with a mouse to draw things in Photoshop, imagine my excitement to learn about a digital pad and pen. Now if I were a videogame designer, who has only been working with buttons and sticks, you could only imagine my excitement to learn about the Wiimote. I would have probably **** myself the first time Nintendo invited me to play WiiSports. I wouldn't think about graphics or consoles or marketing or competition; I would think to myself "this is going to change everything." Then I would start working on the possibilities.

Too bad the industry isn't me.
Everyone is more focused on photorealistic graphics over intuitive and engaging gameplay. We'll just have to wait and see what happens with Arc to see what happens when they get to have their motion and graphics so that they might finally care enough to put forth the effort.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 15, 2010, 04:43:37 PM
So... We don't make blockbuster games for the Wii because the fanbase of blockbuster games isn't on the Wii.  We know that because blockbuster games don't sell on the Wii.  We know that because we haven't made any blockbuster games on the Wii for them to buy.  And why make them if no one's going to buy them?

Gotcha.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 15, 2010, 04:54:45 PM
So... We don't make blockbuster games for the Wii because the fanbase of blockbuster games isn't on the Wii.  We know that because blockbuster games don't sell on the Wii.  We know that because we haven't made any blockbuster games on the Wii for them to buy.  And why make them if no one's going to buy them?

Gotcha.

Nintendo fans thought they had finally broken the catch-22 cycle of third parties this generation. Turns out, they haven't.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 15, 2010, 04:59:18 PM
edit: Stratos, how can you consider MW[reflex] a blockbuster? When has a blockbuster movie ever gotten a quiet release under the blanket of it's sequels release? MW2 on the HD systems was a Blockbuster title as it got the blockbuster advertising and marketing that it needed. MW[reflex] got no such treatment.

I thought we were talking about blockbuster games, not whether or not the publishers treated them like blockbusters should be treated.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Ymeegod on February 15, 2010, 05:01:04 PM
1.  Why you don't see my online WII shooters?  Because Big N really doesn't support online much at all the vast majority of WII owners don't bother with even connecting.  This isn't a new problem but this was happening even on the GC (I'm still waiting for those 25 online titles big n:0).  Nintendo really should just copy what MS and Sony's doing for online services.  If the wheels not broken then it doesn't need to be fix.

Mature titles never sell well on Nintendo systems--True Crime (GTA clone on the GC) didn't sell so that's why you don't sell any GTA port even on the WII.  Did Rockstar studios try the WII?  Yeah they did release Manhunt 2 and Bully but neither titles sold so why would they bother trying to make another one?  Fail twice but third's time the charm? 

You can't possible expect publishers to spend millions of dollars where's there's no market for it.  Big N doesn't have to develope the games but could support 3rd parties more.  Easy way--Demo disks, well they had extra space on their own game discs so you could imagine how much sales would increased for a game if a demo was packaged inside a game like NSMB which hit 10million ww+.  Granted some might not even the demo but even if 10% did and 1 out of 10 bought the game from the demo that's 100K sales just based on that. 

-------------------------------
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 15, 2010, 05:07:24 PM
edit: Stratos, how can you consider MW[reflex] a blockbuster? When has a blockbuster movie ever gotten a quiet release under the blanket of it's sequels release? MW2 on the HD systems was a Blockbuster title as it got the blockbuster advertising and marketing that it needed. MW[reflex] got no such treatment.

I thought we were talking about blockbuster games, not whether or not the publishers treated them like blockbusters should be treated.

But that's part (just part) of the problem.  Could you imagine if Modern Warfare 2 had been released with the advertising and fanfare of, say, Silent Hill?

Ymeegod:
True Crime?  Really?  I'm pretty sure both versions sold pretty crappy on all systems.

It's easy to psh-saw the idea that mature games don't sell on Nintendo systems... unless you look at the fact that there's never really been a big-budget, polished, mature game that's gotten the advertising thrown behind it that GTA and Co. get.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 15, 2010, 05:12:48 PM
The BEST way Nintendo could help third parties is by creating a better way for third parties to dialogue with actual active Wii owners.

My belief is that third parties are still reliant on a last-gen infrastructure of proactive gamers with an entire lifetime of ingrained knowledge, traditionalist and enthusiast media, and marketing styles that are best suited to the 18-25 year old demographic. These things don't exist, or aren't as present, on the Wii, and thus there's less ability to communicate third party messages, advertising, and presentation to Wii owners. Conversely, and just as big if not a BIGGER problem, is that there's also less opportunity for Wii owners to give meaningful, constructive feedback to developers on things they value, are knowledgeable of, or honestly couldn't care less for.

Until this dialogue can happen in a more powerful and consistent manner, everyone's just working on assumptions and guesswork. Well, except for Nintendo. Nintendo has for a long time been trying to talk to consumers who have exceeded the molds and stereotypes the world has set for us gamers.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 15, 2010, 05:19:05 PM
I actually think a demo disc packed in with a game like NSMBW, Zelda or WiiFit+ would be an excellent idea.

It would be nice of Nintendo to do something like that, but it would also help if 3rd parties bothered to advertise their games even a little bit.
If a company Like R* is wondering if a game like GTA would sell on the Wii, then they shouldn't release Manhunt and Bully, they should release GTA. No better way to guage the interest for a GTA game than by releasing a GTA game.
Manhunt 2 & Bully didn't even sell all that great on the PS2, so it's hardly the best way to test the waters.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 15, 2010, 05:22:17 PM
Bully and Manhunt2 - two more PS2 titles ported over for the Wii.  At *least* Manhunt was released concurrently.

How come no one looks at Bully's sales on the 360 and says "Well, Gee!  This game sold like crap on the 360 - I guess 360 gamers don't like mature games!"
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Ymeegod on February 15, 2010, 05:37:51 PM
The reason why I picked True Crimes is because there'e was hype and marketing for it and was an exclusive title--it was ported later to the PS2.  MGS Twin Snakes then?  It had the brand name and marketting team from nintendo, yet the game didn't sell. 

Kinda shocking to see a seqeul to S&P2 and that new IP, Zangeki.  Hopefully they decide to port these titles stateside because these titles might convert more hardcore gamers to the WII. 

---------------------------------------------
Bully on the xbox 360 outsold the WII 2 to 1.  Bully sold just under an million on the 360 which is quite good for a late port. 
 



 
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 15, 2010, 05:49:46 PM
Which TC are you saying was an exclusive?  AFAIR, each title was released at the same time on PS2/XBox/GCN.

As for marketing - not sure I recall seeing any TV ads for it - am I alone?
I still remember GTAIII TV ads.

With Twin Snakes, you get a remake of a PS1 game.  A good game, if a little buggy at places.  Released (delayed until) Mid-2004.  I'd bet if you released GTA3 on the 360 for full price, it'd probably sell similar numbers.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 15, 2010, 06:05:02 PM
Unless I'm missing something, I don't think that Guitar Hero or Rock Band would fall under the category of "blockbuster" game. In fact, I think they are a great example of what sells well on Wii. They are simple concept games that are easy to understand and pick up and play without much instruction. The main reason for this is the guitar controller. Everyone knows how to play a guitar, even if they lack the musical talent and/or finger dexterity to actually do so. A guitar is something that everyone is familiar with, and playing Guitar Hero is already something that everyone knows how to do.

Nintendo found similar success with Mario Kart Wii and the packaged Wii Wheel accessory. It seems a lot of long-time game players hated the wheel and called it inaccurate, but it wasn't designed for them. It is for people who find the traditional controller intimidating. A steering wheel is something that pretty much everyone is familiar with and knows how to use, so no instruction is necessary. Everyone already gets it. This, I believe, is the majority of the type of audience who purchased Guitar Hero and Rock Band on Wii.

Is Metroid Prime 3 a "blockbuster" game? It is "huge, expansive, and immersive," which was how Lindy described games on the PS360. It sold 1.5 million copies (right?). The Metroid Prime Trilogy contained three of this type of game and sold even worse. Compare that to the best-sellers on Wii, and the best-sellers on other systems, and that number doesn't match up. It is a high-quality, well-reviewed, marketed, and Nintendo-published title, so none of the grab bag of excuses for low sales can really apply. This is a game which should have sold to everyone who had an interest in a "blockbuster" type game, and, well, I believe that it did.

There are a few other examples I can think of which might qualify. Batallion Wars II from Nintendo as well, and the aforementioned-by-Broodwars Fire Emblem. No More Heroes and The Conduit come to mind. None of these were million sellers.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 15, 2010, 06:10:52 PM
It's not important why this is happening; what's important is how to fix it, and I'm not sure it's possible to fix it. The only thing that might work is Nintendo getting in there and doing something about it, but they're in no position to care about it. Their games are selling and the hardware's doing record numbers, so they don't need to care about third parties.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 15, 2010, 07:57:41 PM
There are a few other examples I can think of which might qualify. Batallion Wars II from Nintendo as well, and the aforementioned-by-Broodwars Fire Emblem. No More Heroes and The Conduit come to mind. None of these were million sellers.

I missed the advertising for those games.
The fact that MPT, BWii and FE sold... lackluster numbers shows that even Nintendo games aren't necessarily mega-sellers.

No one has yet to answer why Nintendo wasted money on TV ads for NSMBWii when it was going to sell with or without ads.

It's not important why this is happening; what's important is how to fix it, and I'm not sure it's possible to fix it.

That's like saying it isn't important to figure out why everyone's getting lung cancer, we just need to fix it... Without knowing that everyone's getting lung cancer because they smoke, how are we supposed to know to tell them to stop smoking?

Figuring out what is causing the error is the first step to fixing it.  Basic computer programming.  Basic life skills.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 15, 2010, 08:11:53 PM
I missed the advertising for those games.
The fact that MPT, BWii and FE sold... lackluster numbers shows that even Nintendo games aren't necessarily mega-sellers.
Why aren't they mega-sellers? Is it not even a possibility that the games didn't sell because there isn't much of an audience for them? Is advertising the end-all, be-all for game sales? Why does Mario Kart Wii continue to sell despite that the only advertising which took place was at launch?

No one has yet to answer why Nintendo wasted money on TV ads for NSMBWii when it was going to sell with or without ads.
Why is Coca-Cola still advertised when everyone knows what it is? Advertisements aren't just about product awareness, they are also about keeping a product on your mind. Also, I'm curious, why do you feel that New Super Mario Brothers Wii would sell itself without advertising, but the other games I mentioned needed more advertising?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 15, 2010, 08:40:35 PM
Don't get me wrong, I don't think advertising is the end-all solution to third party woes...  But it's a big part of it.

Mario sells on the red cap alone.  Branding.  Anyone who's played a video game has played some kind of Mario game in their life.  Metroid, Fire Emblem, Battalion Wars - you can't say the same thing about those.  Now, I'm not naive enough to think a few commercials would have boosted Fire Emblem to NSMBWii-like numbers - but you can't throw a no-name product out on the shelves and expect it to sell.

Going back to branding - Silent Hill isn't much of a brand.  Madworld isn't a brand.  No More Heroes isn't a brand.  But that little SEGA, UBIsoft or EA logo on the package - that *IS* a brand.

So, just like seeing Mario and associating him with all the fun Mario games you've played, a lesser-educated consumer is going to see RandomGameX, not recognize anything about it except for that company logo plastered on the front and remember playing a few previous Wall Of Shame titles and skip that title.  Even if they hear how great the game is later, they've already spent their entertainment budget on another game (or something else altogether).
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 15, 2010, 09:07:33 PM
People who don't follow games (which I'd assume is the majority of the Wii userbase) wouldn't know a new Mario game is out unless they saw it somewhere. They might not browse the games section very often, or very closely, so they needed a little push to see the game was released. That was the purpose of the advertising. The red case may play a part in this as well, as people probably noticed the red case on the shelves and took a closer look at what game it was.

If brand name matters, why didn't everyone buy up Nintendo titles like ExciteBots, Punch-Out!!, Wario Land Shake It!, and others? Every game they bought from Nintendo has been quality, so there should be no doubt that these, too, are well-crafted games. It seems more likely that the consumer base simply isn't very interested in these types of games.

Metroid Prime 3, Battalion Wars II, No More Heroes, The Conduit, and MadWorld all had hype and/or advertising that I remember, plus generally favourable reviews. Fire Emblem and ExciteBots were pretty much shipped out alone, though. However, ExciteBots was packaged with a Wii Wheel, the same marketing gimmick used for Mario Kart Wii. I just find it a little coincidental that all of these titles would post relatively low sales due to variables like advertising. The simple answer here is that there isn't much of an audience for them, and the simplest answer is often the correct one.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kairon on February 15, 2010, 10:22:12 PM
I think it is important to recognize that some games by virtue of what they are should be construed as more or less niche nowadays... *sniff* Poor Shenmue, game I have never played...
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 16, 2010, 12:24:05 AM
You know, when the Wii came out there was this FPS called Red Steel that sold a million despite severely lackluster quality. Why the **** didn't third parties look at that and think "if a shitty FPS can sell a million, a good one can sell truckloads"?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 16, 2010, 05:31:52 AM
If brand name matters, why didn't everyone buy up Nintendo titles like ExciteBots, Punch-Out!!, Wario Land Shake It!, and others? Every game they bought from Nintendo has been quality, so there should be no doubt that these, too, are well-crafted games. It seems more likely that the consumer base simply isn't very interested in these types of games.

The Nintendo logo on a package means very little to an uninformed consumer.  Because every single (legitimate) game for every Nintendo system ever has had the Nintendo logo on it somewhere or another.  If it had been Mario Land: Shake It!, I bet it would have sold tons.

Metroid Prime 3, Battalion Wars II, No More Heroes, The Conduit, and MadWorld all had hype and/or advertising that I remember, plus generally favourable reviews. Fire Emblem and ExciteBots were pretty much shipped out alone, though. However, ExciteBots was packaged with a Wii Wheel, the same marketing gimmick used for Mario Kart Wii. I just find it a little coincidental that all of these titles would post relatively low sales due to variables like advertising. The simple answer here is that there isn't much of an audience for them, and the simplest answer is often the correct one.
[/quote]
The only one of those titles I recall seeing a commercial for was Metriod Prime 3 (which didn't sell that horribly, if I recall - I thought the Metroid discussion revolved around the Trilogy, which was released to die).  As for reviews, I thought we've covered that in this thread - most consumers don't read reviews.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 16, 2010, 06:03:25 AM
According to Nintendo, in March, 2008, Metroid Prime 3 had sold 1.31 Million Units.
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2008/080425e.pdf (Page 6).

What's considered a good seller now-a-days?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 16, 2010, 06:34:43 AM
Triple Post:
To anyone puzzled by the idea that proper advertising can help sell a game, to you I say "Every puzzle has an answer!"

Think you got it?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 16, 2010, 06:37:08 AM
I think the Metroid series as a whole is simply not a gigantic seller so 1.3M is probably within the expectations Nintendo had for it.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: D_Average on February 16, 2010, 07:07:38 AM
Geometry Wars Wii actually had some hip ads. I'd find a link if I wasn't on my cell. Sadly, I was the only customer influenced by said ads.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 16, 2010, 10:32:37 AM
As for reviews, I thought we've covered that in this thread - most consumers don't read reviews.
I'm a little confused by something. You acknowledge that the majority of the Wii userbase is uninformed, but you think they are the types of gamers who would buy "bloctbuster" games, which typical sell only to the "hardcore" crowd?

According to Nintendo, in March, 2008, Metroid Prime 3 had sold 1.31 Million Units.
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2008/080425e.pdf (Page 6).

What's considered a good seller now-a-days?
It's all relative. 1.31 million isn't much compared to the 20 million of Wii Fit. When third-parties see numbers like that, what type of games are they going to focus on? Also, that number is quite a bit less than what most shooters have sold on the XBox 360.

You know, when the Wii came out there was this FPS called Red Steel that sold a million despite severely lackluster quality. Why the **** didn't third parties look at that and think "if a shitty FPS can sell a million, a good one can sell truckloads"?
Red Steel was a launch title, which tend to sell well simply because there are so few games available. One could say The Conduit attempted to follow up on that, and it was met with pretty low sales.

Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 16, 2010, 10:35:57 AM
Yeah but how long did it take for The Conduit to show up? People who bought Red Steel were probably looking for something better fairly quickly but they didn't get anything.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 16, 2010, 10:43:50 AM
There was also the Call of Duty series, which posted respectable sales, though not even half as much as on other systems.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 16, 2010, 10:48:20 AM
Well CoD on Wii was always late and with little to no advertising.
Most people that wanted to play them likely already bought a PS360 and that game to go with it.

I'm sure lots of fans of FPS moved to the HD systems since what they were craving was not being released on the Wii, and if it was, they could get it in HD 8-12 months sooner somewhere else. If they starve a market in a certain area and then try to feed it scraps later on, they shouldn't be surprised that that market is either already dead or has moved onto greener pastures. They did the Nintendo audience wrong and now they have to deal with it.
Too little too late.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 16, 2010, 10:52:44 AM
Call of Duty Modern Warfare is the only one of the three that is a late port.
Call of Duty 3 was released one week after the XBox 360 version.
Call of Duty World at War was released on the same day as the other two versions.
I can't speak of advertising though, but most of that seems like conjecture to me.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on February 16, 2010, 11:11:10 AM
I'm sure lots of fans of FPS moved to the HD systems since what they were craving was not being released on the Wii, and if it was, they could get it in HD 8-12 months sooner somewhere else.

Or they already had a 360 because they probably played Halo on Xbox, and therefore bought the next Xbox console.

Saying all of the FPS fans left the Wii behind implies that the Gamecube had enough of a FPS userbase to establish a large FPS userbase on the Wii at launch, and I'd doubt that.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 16, 2010, 12:19:50 PM
I'm just saying alot of people bought the Wii early because of the possibilities that the wiimote brought to the table. Lots of us were expecting FPS to be a major genre on the Wii, yet the only offering of note was RS at launch and I don't know how long it was until the next FPS with marketing came along.

IF you look back through a lot of multi-format forums back in mid-late 2007-2008, lots of people's Wiis were supposedly collecting dust and PS360's were already purchased. That is a huge missed opportunity by 3rd parties, but whats done is done, and we can only move forward from here.

I bet the first big Arc FPS is gonna be a pretty huge deal in the HD circles and control is gonna be praised.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 16, 2010, 05:59:15 PM
I'd argue the Gamecube had an FPS fanbase because of all the Goldeneye/Perfect Dark fans that were hoping for the next great Rare FPS to materialize. Though if that were the case Nintendo lost those people last gen because Rare never could produce PD0 before being sold and the closest thing to come was Timesplitters. If I were a huge FPS fan who bought consoles specifically first and foremost to enjoy those types of games I would have gotten and XBox pretty fast last gen for Halo and abandoned the 'Cube. I wouldn't be surprised of those people just never committed to the Wii because they were waiting to see what came for it and since nothing materialized after Red Steel they moved on to 360.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 16, 2010, 09:24:07 PM
I was gonna post this in the teabagged thread, but this is a story for The Wall of Shame.

Quote
IGN: All right, let's switch focus a bit. THQ was one of the first and biggest third-party backers of Wii and you guys gambled with original licenses like de Blob and Deadly Creatures. The latter was a T-rated game that flopped. Why do you think T and M-rated titles like these haven't found an audience on Nintendo's platform?

Brian Farrell: Yeah, it's the audience. I'm glad we made the experience. Deadly Creatures was a fun experience. Critically well-reviewed. Didn't find much of an audience and I think more of the core-gaming audience is on 360 and PS3. I know Nintendo doesn't like that message. I'm a huge fan of Nintendo personally, but that's just not where the audience is or the audience there is fairly limited. The old guys like me and maybe you will still play the core stuff -- all the stuff we love about Nintendo on the Wii. But we don't branch out and play some of the core experiences on the Wii. If we do, we go HD and play on PS3 or 360.

I think that's the dynamic that's going on. There's nothing wrong with that. There's plenty of audience on the Wii. We've been concentrating more on our kids, family and casual stuff there and there is a viable business on the Wii for that stuff. It's just not the core experiences.

IGN: So it's safe to assume we won't ever be seeing a version of Darksiders or anything like that on Wii?

Brian Farrell: Yeah, I won't rule anything out. There are things that we can do. At E3, we'll be unveiling a few things around Wii that are some brand extensions and you go, "Okay, that makes sense on Wii." I can get that audience on the Wii. I don't want to front-run our PR department on some things. I don't want to rule out those things. You have to be smart about what you put on Wii from a core gamer's standpoint. But if you look at what's selling on Wii, it's Nintendo's stuff and it's kids, family and casual. Our kids, family and casual gained a lot of share this year on the Wii with things like The Biggest Loser and Marvel Super Hero Squad, and those type of products. And that's where the Wii consumer is.

I would love to see Deadly Creatures release on the HD consoles and find it's audience there. I'll even give them the bug marketing campaign so that people are even aware that it exist.

Well I await to see what THQ has in store for the Wii come E3 2010.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 16, 2010, 09:27:47 PM
Quote
IGN:Why do you think T and M-rated titles like these haven't found an audience on Nintendo's platform?

Brian Farrell: Yeah, it's the audience.
...
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 16, 2010, 09:33:29 PM
Quote
IGN:Why do you think T and M-rated titles like these haven't found an audience on Nintendo's platform?

Brian Farrell: Yeah, it's the audience.
...

that would be the tl;dr version of it
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 16, 2010, 09:36:44 PM
As for reviews, I thought we've covered that in this thread - most consumers don't read reviews.
I'm a little confused by something. You acknowledge that the majority of the Wii userbase is uninformed, but you think they are the types of gamers who would buy "bloctbuster" games, which typical sell only to the "hardcore" crowd?

Blockbuster games don't just sell to the hardcore crowd any more than blockbuster movies are only seen by hardcore movie goers.

The fact that the Wii Fanbase is uninformed is what makes them navigate to blockbuster titles... "Ohhh, I saw this shiny game on TV!  Buy!"

I know several people discount the effects of a proper advertising campaign - but then how do you explain Professor Layton?  Game came out, sold... questionably (to the point people thought the sequels wouldn't be released in the US) - then, bamn - a few months later, Phoebe is on TV doing commercials for the game and it's topping the sales charts.

But, again, this goes back to the idea of a proper advertising campaign - knowing the market you're aiming for (and should be aiming for).  Metroid Prime 3 is a good example - it had the one commercial... It was probably the weakest of the "Wii would like to play" line-up... and that these just wasn't suited for the type of game Metroid is - it's not a party game or a group game - it's a solo adventure.  Shooting and exploration.  Not something "we" play.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: D_Average on February 16, 2010, 09:58:04 PM
One time at gamestop I saw a GCN FPS that looked like a comic book. It was only five dollars or so and I was tempted to buy it but then I remembered I needed that five for a frisbee. How is the it?  Worth buying?  Did it sell well? 
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Ymeegod on February 16, 2010, 10:09:25 PM
Are you talking about the game XIII?  It wasn't to bad, easily a nice rental and worth $5 IMO. 
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 16, 2010, 10:28:37 PM
I'm not discounting good marketing, but no amount of advertising will sell a game to people who aren't interested in it. I'm afraid I still don't understand exactly what a "blockbuster" game is, but I guess it doesn't matter.

Above all, I think most third-party developers simply aren't interested in creating games for Wii, and prefer the other two systems. I can't say I blame them for that.

EDIT: I do agree with at least one thing from that IGN interview:

Didn't find much of an audience and I think more of the core-gaming audience is on 360 and PS3. I know Nintendo doesn't like that message.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 16, 2010, 10:34:47 PM
My idea of a "blockbuster" is a big game designed to sell big.  Just like your summer blockbuster movies that have huge budgets, big names attached, special effects, expansive story line, etc., etc.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 16, 2010, 10:37:59 PM
So does Wii Fit count?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 16, 2010, 10:38:56 PM
A Blockbuster game would be just like a Blockbuster Movie.

BIG Name, BIG Budget, BIG Advertising, BIG Push.
Basically heralded as the EVENT of whatever time it is coming out.

Harry Potter - Blockbuster
Spiderman - Blockbuster
Avatar - Blockbuster
NSMBWii - Blockbuster
Halo - Blockbuster
Madden - Blockbuster

Not every Blockbuster finds it's mark though like Little Big Planet or Snakes on a Plane.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 16, 2010, 10:40:38 PM
Sounds risky. I can understand why they choose the XBox 360 and PS3 for those types of games when they know there's an audience for them.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 16, 2010, 10:41:06 PM
So does Wii Fit count?
Personally, I wouldn't count it.  BnM's post pretty much sums it up.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 16, 2010, 10:48:51 PM
Sounds risky. I can understand why they choose the XBox 360 and PS3 for those types of games when they know there's an audience for them.

Well if every gamer was a sheep, each system was a corral, and the sheep dogs(games) that the farm hands(publishers) released were designed to herd the sheep into specific corrals. Then the Wii corral was not supplied with enough core sheep dogs to herd in all the core sheep. There are plenty of core sheep in the Wii corral, but there are just a lot more in the HD corrals.

Nobodies fault but the farm hands for unevenly dispersing their sheep dogs.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: A Straight Up Trippin' Balls Forum User on February 16, 2010, 10:51:19 PM
I regard what THQ says, a company that released Bratz: The Movie, Bratz: Girlz Really Rock, 5 Spongebob games, 2 All Star Cheer Squad and Are You Smarter Than A 5th Grader games, and 5 Pixar movie games, about as equally as I regard my next bowel movement.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 16, 2010, 10:53:57 PM
How many of Nintendo's games would you consider blockbuster games?
If the best-sellers on Wii aren't blockbuster games, what is to say that these types of games would sell well on Wii?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 16, 2010, 11:02:44 PM
Personally, I'd consider Guitar Hero (3, World Tour and 5 - not Metallica, Van Halen, etc.) to be blockbusters (which I consider different than "Epic" games).  Rock Band. NSMBWii. Red Steel tried. Tony Hawk RIDE. Simpsons (-ish).
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: A Straight Up Trippin' Balls Forum User on February 16, 2010, 11:08:30 PM
Now we're using movie trailer propaganda buzzwords for videogames :argh:

Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 16, 2010, 11:12:22 PM
We've whined for years for the video game industry to be taken seriously like the movie industry. ;)
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 16, 2010, 11:13:47 PM
Can't we come up with our own terms instead of stealing the ones from the movie industry?
How about "housebuster" instead of "blockbuster"?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 16, 2010, 11:14:25 PM
We only use it because we are trying to get those that don't understand to understand by relating it something somewhat relateable.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stogi on February 16, 2010, 11:53:52 PM
Quote
IGN:Why do you think T and M-rated titles like these haven't found an audience on Nintendo's platform?

Brian Farrell: Yeah, it's the audience.
...

Wow.

Pro, you need to start forwarding your O.P.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: D_Average on February 17, 2010, 12:33:29 AM
Can't we come up with our own terms instead of stealing the ones from the movie industry?
How about "housebuster" instead of "blockbuster"?

I agree. Blockbuster is played out and ready to die. Here are some ideas. Couchbuster, lifebuster, marriagebuster or even megadisruptivebuster. I'm sure if we all chime in we will come up with the right phrase.   
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 17, 2010, 12:34:48 AM
Wasn't the term 'Killer App' or 'AAA' what we used for games? Or have we been so desperate for those games that we forgot the terms even existed? ;)
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: that Baby guy on February 17, 2010, 04:28:22 AM
"AAA" is for school grades and cars, and the Iphone took "Killer App."

We need a new one.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 17, 2010, 05:50:00 AM
AAA is the industry term for a game that has a ton of effort put into it. Killer app refers to games that drive hardware sales.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Peachylala on February 17, 2010, 07:45:42 AM
F for common sense, Brain Farrell. F- for that comment.

Only a third party can get this double standard of failure.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: UncleBob on February 17, 2010, 08:11:18 AM
Madden is a Blockbuster title, but *not* a AAA title or a Killer App (*Maybe* the first new Madden for a system... but I think that's a stretch).

Tetris, for the original Game Boy - I wouldn't consider it a Blockbuster title... Heck, I'd question the AAA title (Maybe AA?).  But it was definitively *the* killer app for the Game Boy.  Hell, I think that game coined the phrase. ;)

I'd say something like just about any game from the Fire Emblem series is a AAA title - yet I wouldn't consider them blockbusters or killer apps.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Peachylala on February 17, 2010, 08:49:59 AM
Tetris was a pretty new IP back in 1989 when the first variation of the GB was release, so was Wii Sports in 2006.

Confession: I wanted to play Wii Sports more then Zelda when the Wii was first announced. I play more Wii Sports Resort then Mario Galaxy, and more NSMBWii then Mario Galaxy.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 17, 2010, 10:07:29 AM
Mario is the biggest video-game blockbuster there ever was. That is true both literally and figuratively (he busts blocks with his head).
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Peachylala on February 17, 2010, 11:43:21 AM
The rest of the gaming media calls that laziness and stupidity on the audience part.

Double standards folks!
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 17, 2010, 03:57:58 PM
Mario is the biggest video-game blockbuster there ever was. That is true both literally and figuratively (he busts blocks with his head).
Oh dear, that was bad.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: ThePerm on February 17, 2010, 04:38:23 PM
yeah Killer App is the interactive application term. If your refering to Nintendo games Megaton is most correct. Places pinky under lip
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stogi on February 17, 2010, 04:46:11 PM
so we are looking for an emphatic term to describe the best of the best of videogames?

How about nut-buster?

E.g. Mario 64 was a nut-buster of a classic.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 17, 2010, 04:56:42 PM
Megaton usually refers to "killer app" announcements though. Megaton is what you use to fuel the HYPE TRAIN. Where the HYPE TRAIN goes depends on the Marketing, and if there isn't any of that then it usually fizzles out. But if there is plenty of marketing then the HYPE TRAIN grows larger and you ride it all the way to the release of your "Blockbuster[name to be determined]".
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stogi on February 17, 2010, 05:29:52 PM
How about the game is so good that you bust a nut?

Nut-buster? Skeeter?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 17, 2010, 06:03:43 PM
THat would sound bad in the wrong context

the HYPE TRAIN grows larger and you ride it all the way to the nutbuster release
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stogi on February 17, 2010, 06:40:00 PM
THat would sound HILARIOUS in the wrong context

the HYPE TRAIN grows larger and you ride it all the way to the nutbuster release
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 18, 2010, 12:20:06 AM
I thought "nutbuster" was a skateboard move that's worth 0 points and a trip to the hospital.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stogi on February 18, 2010, 12:30:38 AM
"bust-a-nutter"?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 18, 2010, 12:35:08 AM
Wasn't that term created during the Gamecube cycle in reference to a "MEGATON Announcement" that never occurred? Did we ever find out what the announcement was supposed to be? I recall Nintendo alluding to a 'new peripheral' in the works and I always assumed that it was what turned into the Revolution since Nintendo originally was going to make the 'Wiimotes' be add-ons to the Gamecube until they decided that it would be better to release it in its own system.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: ThePerm on February 18, 2010, 01:07:51 AM
Stratos is correct, Megaton went from a sociolectical thing among a couple forumers to an industry term
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stogi on February 18, 2010, 02:02:59 AM
I'm pretty sure the first Megaton announcement was that of Wind Waker
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: broodwars on February 18, 2010, 02:30:41 AM
I'm pretty sure the first Megaton announcement was that of Wind Waker

It's been a while, but IIRC the first "Megaton" announcement was for a game really called "Megaton" that never released out of Japan.  At the time, people just assumed when they heard the name that it would be something more than it was.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 18, 2010, 02:58:36 AM
Maybe it was a game announcement. All I remember clearly was the disappointment...and people constantly asking if any new announcement since was 'Teh Megaton!".
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 18, 2010, 10:44:28 AM
I believe "Megaton" originally was used to describe how powerful atomic bombs were. The "megaton" would refer to how many million tons of TNT they were equivalent to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaton
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stogi on February 18, 2010, 10:51:01 AM
Wait I remember it being about some Japanese magazine promising some announcement during the fall months.....maybe. Either way it doesn't suit the word we're trying to make up.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 18, 2010, 01:57:28 PM
I believe "Megaton" originally was used to describe how powerful atomic bombs were. The "megaton" would refer to how many million tons of TNT they were equivalent to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaton)

Yeah, and that makes it difficult to do a google search for the term's inception related to gaming.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: broodwars on February 18, 2010, 02:09:19 PM
I believe "Megaton" originally was used to describe how powerful atomic bombs were. The "megaton" would refer to how many million tons of TNT they were equivalent to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaton)

Yeah, and that makes it difficult to do a google search for the term's inception related to gaming.

Not really, so long as you know how to phrase your search terms.  2-3 minutes on Google produced this handy little link (http://www.n-sider.com/contentview.php?contentid=153) for me that should clear things up nicely.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 18, 2010, 02:24:16 PM
I was just being lazy and searching for 'megaton'.

Nice link. So 'megaton' is really another way of saying something is 'Much Ado About Nothing' ;)
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 18, 2010, 03:11:25 PM
I just got the idea from Halbred in the MM4 talkback thread, but how about MegaBuster!?

combo of Blockbuster and Megaton
meaning Hyped Up Big Release
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: ThePerm on February 18, 2010, 03:47:05 PM
to answer a question of what a blockbuster game is

a game so appealing that everyone rushes out to buy it for 1 or more of 5 reasons
1 Everyone Agrees it will be awesome based on trailers
2 it was reviewed well and you should get it
3 its actually fun, because you tried it
4. Your friend bought it and you should conform
5. It is pretty(graphically) and you can't resist shiny things(whether the game is fun or not)
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Peachylala on February 18, 2010, 07:58:09 PM
To answer a question on what a blockbuster game is...

1 Super Mario Galaxy
2 Super Mario Galaxy
3 Super Mario Galaxy
4 Super Mario Galaxy
5 Everything else Nintendo made
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 27, 2010, 01:25:25 AM
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/third-party-puzzle-article (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/third-party-puzzle-article)

Another attempt at figuring out just WTF third parties are doing wrong, Fahey suspects they're too inefficient to allow making Wii games cheaply enough to really take risks.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 27, 2010, 01:58:08 PM
I reiterated the Wall of Shame over on Gaf and got some pretty good responses.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=20002670&postcount=907 (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=20002670&postcount=907)

I hope one of them follow through and make a wall for every publisher. Those GAF people can be pretty motivated sometimes (DudeBro)

edit: Michael Pachter Agrees with the 3rd Party Wall of Shame/Nintendo Wall of Glory

Quote
Pachter: I continue to believe that the Wii audience will buy good games, and think that third parties have done a poor job of making them for the Wii. There are a handful of exceptions (my favorite is Zack and Wiki), but most third party Wii games just plain suck. The third parties don't appear to be giving the Wii owner what he/she wants, which is an approachable, high quality game. The bulk of titles are shovelware, and once a Wii owner has a bad experience with a poorly crafted title from a third party, they are even more likely to return to buying only Nintendo products. This is most definitely NOT Nintendo's fault; they can hardly be blamed for making consistently good games. It's the fault of studios that think it's ok to make a lousy game and put the word "party" in the title.
source (http://www.gamedaily.com/articles/news/pachters-podium-pach-backtracks-on-50-natal-estimate-says-dsi-xl-wont-be-a-success/)
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Urkel on February 27, 2010, 03:23:59 PM
It's pretty sad that Gaf of all places is far more receptive to the Wall of Shame than here.
 
And that's not Pachter. It has to be an imposter.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Aielyn on February 28, 2010, 12:24:38 AM
Hi, first time post, joined just because I was getting frustrated at seeing everyone miss the obvious term for the gaming equivalent of a blockbuster.
It's called a System Seller, everyone. They're games that are so good, so desired by people, that they'll go and buy the system for that specific game. Few games truly achieve system-seller status.
Anyway, those walls of shame are quite revealing. I only wish it were possible to get budget data, so that you could re-generate the walls from the developer/publisher perspective, and see how much money would be saved by cutting out all the shovelware, and how much would be able to be fed into the decent games to make them great games. Heck, there are some games that could have been system sellers, if they'd been given the appropriate budget.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 28, 2010, 01:39:46 AM
I reiterated the Wall of Shame over on Gaf and got some pretty good responses.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=20002670&postcount=907 (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=20002670&postcount=907)

I hope one of them follow through and make a wall for every publisher. Those GAF people can be pretty motivated sometimes (DudeBro)

edit: Michael Pachter Agrees with the 3rd Party Wall of Shame/Nintendo Wall of Glory

Quote
Pachter: I continue to believe that the Wii audience will buy good games, and think that third parties have done a poor job of making them for the Wii. There are a handful of exceptions (my favorite is Zack and Wiki), but most third party Wii games just plain suck. The third parties don't appear to be giving the Wii owner what he/she wants, which is an approachable, high quality game. The bulk of titles are shovelware, and once a Wii owner has a bad experience with a poorly crafted title from a third party, they are even more likely to return to buying only Nintendo products. This is most definitely NOT Nintendo's fault; they can hardly be blamed for making consistently good games. It's the fault of studios that think it's ok to make a lousy game and put the word "party" in the title.
source (http://www.gamedaily.com/articles/news/pachters-podium-pach-backtracks-on-50-natal-estimate-says-dsi-xl-wont-be-a-success/)

I have to agree with Urkel. That statement is logical, realistic, and true; it can't possibly have been said by Michael Pachter.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stratos on February 28, 2010, 03:09:09 AM
Hi, first time post, joined just because I was getting frustrated at seeing everyone miss the obvious term for the gaming equivalent of a blockbuster.
It's called a System Seller, everyone. They're games that are so good, so desired by people, that they'll go and buy the system for that specific game. Few games truly achieve system-seller status.
Anyway, those walls of shame are quite revealing. I only wish it were possible to get budget data, so that you could re-generate the walls from the developer/publisher perspective, and see how much money would be saved by cutting out all the shovelware, and how much would be able to be fed into the decent games to make them great games. Heck, there are some games that could have been system sellers, if they'd been given the appropriate budget.

But is system seller broad enough to describe all the titles we are referring to? What of sequel games that are made for fans of the first? How many people will buy Galaxy 2 that haven't picked up Galaxy 1? Or Gears of War 2 and Gears 1?

Good thought for a term, though.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Aielyn on February 28, 2010, 05:02:51 AM
Hi, first time post, joined just because I was getting frustrated at seeing everyone miss the obvious term for the gaming equivalent of a blockbuster.
It's called a System Seller, everyone. They're games that are so good, so desired by people, that they'll go and buy the system for that specific game. Few games truly achieve system-seller status.
Anyway, those walls of shame are quite revealing. I only wish it were possible to get budget data, so that you could re-generate the walls from the developer/publisher perspective, and see how much money would be saved by cutting out all the shovelware, and how much would be able to be fed into the decent games to make them great games. Heck, there are some games that could have been system sellers, if they'd been given the appropriate budget.

But is system seller broad enough to describe all the titles we are referring to? What of sequel games that are made for fans of the first? How many people will buy Galaxy 2 that haven't picked up Galaxy 1? Or Gears of War 2 and Gears 1?

Good thought for a term, though.
I'd argue that if a game can't surpass its predecessor, then it couldn't have been as good as the predecessor, and thus doesn't deserve the status, anyway.


And I'd argue the same regarding movie sequels - if the sequel isn't pulling in anyone who didn't watch the first one, it's not really busting any blocks, if you don't mind the tortured terminology.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 28, 2010, 06:05:06 AM
I'd argue that if a game can't surpass its predecessor, then it couldn't have been as good as the predecessor, and thus doesn't deserve the status, anyway.

A sequel can only surpass its predecessor by appealing to more people. Super Mario Galaxy 2 won't appeal to more people than Galaxy 1.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 28, 2010, 11:25:25 AM
You have to consider that the Wii userbase is now much larger than when Super Mario Galaxy was released. I wouldn't be surprised if there are people who recently bought a Wii who will buy Super Mario Galaxy 2 instead of the original, thinking that it is pretty much the same game but better.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Caterkiller on February 28, 2010, 12:06:05 PM
I'm wondering if NSMBW will have any affect on Galaxy 2. In Japan absolutely not, but in America and else where? I feel like Mario Bros Wii allowed people to rediscover Mario again for the first time in over a decade. Maybe, just maybe they will try and take the next step up to 3D.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: D_Average on February 28, 2010, 12:09:49 PM
I think sales of Galaxy 2 in America will at least double that of the original due to the massive user base this time around.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on February 28, 2010, 12:15:28 PM
I'm wondering if NSMBW will have any affect on Galaxy 2. In Japan absolutely not, but in America and else where? I feel like Mario Bros Wii allowed people to rediscover Mario again for the first time in over a decade. Maybe, just maybe they will try and take the next step up to 3D.

I doubt it, they had three generations to get acquainted with 3D Mario.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Kytim89 on February 28, 2010, 12:16:00 PM
I wonder if Gamestop is going to allow a discount on the first game if you preorder the sequel.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Caterkiller on February 28, 2010, 12:19:23 PM
I'm wondering if NSMBW will have any affect on Galaxy 2. In Japan absolutely not, but in America and else where? I feel like Mario Bros Wii allowed people to rediscover Mario again for the first time in over a decade. Maybe, just maybe they will try and take the next step up to 3D.

I doubt it, they had three generations to get acquainted with 3D Mario.

I understand that, but i'm wondering if a 2D console Mario will bait them in for Galaxy 2. Imagine if the commercials show like 50% 3D and 50% 2D? Or imagine on Galaxy commercial that shows almost nothing but 2D segments. That would really "trick" some of the uninformed. 
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Mop it up on February 28, 2010, 01:04:34 PM
This is the first time that a 2D and 3D Mario game have existed on the same system, so it could be very interesting indeed to see what effect that has on 3D Mario sales.

And since when were sales of 3D Mario bad? Super Mario 64 sold 11 million copies so obviously lots of people got acquainted with 3D Mario right away. Plus the Nintendo 64 and especially GameCube sold worse than the NES and SNES so there were less people to sell 3D Mario to. Super Mario Galaxy 2 is being released onto the best-selling Nintendo home console ever, so I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes the best-selling 3D Mario game.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Aielyn on February 28, 2010, 06:28:42 PM
I'd argue that if a game can't surpass its predecessor, then it couldn't have been as good as the predecessor, and thus doesn't deserve the status, anyway.

A sequel can only surpass its predecessor by appealing to more people. Super Mario Galaxy 2 won't appeal to more people than Galaxy 1.
As Mop it up pointed out, the install base is larger, now. Plus, NSMB Wii will have primed more people for the game.


If it doesn't outsell the first Galaxy, then it's not a system-seller at all, and using movie-based terms, I wouldn't call it a blockbuster, either. A sequel on the same system as its predecessor should outsell that predecessor, due to larger install base of the system. If it doesn't, it can't be as good as the original. This is, of course, assuming that the brand isn't destroyed by the first title, so that people don't buy the second one.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Dasmos on February 28, 2010, 06:40:50 PM
I'd argue that if a game can't surpass its predecessor, then it couldn't have been as good as the predecessor, and thus doesn't deserve the status, anyway.

A sequel can only surpass its predecessor by appealing to more people. Super Mario Galaxy 2 won't appeal to more people than Galaxy 1.
As Mop it up pointed out, the install base is larger, now. Plus, NSMB Wii will have primed more people for the game.


If it doesn't outsell the first Galaxy, then it's not a system-seller at all, and using movie-based terms, I wouldn't call it a blockbuster, either. A sequel on the same system as its predecessor should outsell that predecessor, due to larger install base of the system. If it doesn't, it can't be as good as the original. This is, of course, assuming that the brand isn't destroyed by the first title, so that people don't buy the second one.

Since when has buying the first game in a series constituted buying the sequel? And even further how does not outselling the first galaxy even come close to questioning the quality of the game?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Stogi on February 28, 2010, 07:10:30 PM
^this.

Yeah...the correlation didn't make sense to me either.

P.S. It's called a NUTBUSTER
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 28, 2010, 08:35:03 PM
Does anyone know any other major publishers that haven't been covered by the Wall?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Aielyn on February 28, 2010, 08:44:12 PM
As Mop it up pointed out, the install base is larger, now. Plus, NSMB Wii will have primed more people for the game.


If it doesn't outsell the first Galaxy, then it's not a system-seller at all, and using movie-based terms, I wouldn't call it a blockbuster, either. A sequel on the same system as its predecessor should outsell that predecessor, due to larger install base of the system. If it doesn't, it can't be as good as the original. This is, of course, assuming that the brand isn't destroyed by the first title, so that people don't buy the second one.

Since when has buying the first game in a series constituted buying the sequel? And even further how does not outselling the first galaxy even come close to questioning the quality of the game?
It's not that buying the first game constitutes buying the sequel. It's that, with a larger install base, it should be capable of selling at least as many copies, if equal in quality. Those who bought the first but don't buy the sequel should be offset by those who buy only the sequel, due to a larger install base.


Obviously, one must remember the distinction between the game's quality and its success. For instance, maybe Darkside Chronicles is a better game than Umbrella Chronicles... but Umbrella Chronicles came closer to being a system-seller (although it wasn't one). Just as a blockbuster movie isn't just a good movie, but a movie that breaks records at the box office, so too is a system-seller a game that goes beyond just being quality.




BlackNMild2k1 - Marvelous Interactive/Rising Star Games has been missed... although, their wall would be one of the few that I'd be tempted to call a "wall of <something other than shame>". Their games have consistently been niche, but their support of the Wii is clear-cut, and only one game on the list would fail to be considered at least decent (and even that one, I'm not sure of). Also, Atari hasn't been listed, nor has Disney, Hudson, Koei, LucasArts, or Warner Bros.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 28, 2010, 10:15:13 PM
BlackNMild2k1 - Marvelous Interactive/Rising Star Games has been missed... although, their wall would be one of the few that I'd be tempted to call a "wall of <something other than shame>". Their games have consistently been niche, but their support of the Wii is clear-cut, and only one game on the list would fail to be considered at least decent (and even that one, I'm not sure of). Also, Atari hasn't been listed, nor has Disney, Hudson, Koei, LucasArts, or Warner Bros.
Thanks. Is anybody willing to make a Wall for any/all of those companies?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: A Straight Up Trippin' Balls Forum User on March 01, 2010, 10:08:07 AM
While looking at yesterday's Best Buy newspaper ad-packet I thought, how neat, another store with the $30 Endless Ocean + Wii Speak bundle; then right below that I see that Spongebob's Boating Bash is coming out tomorrow, bringing THQ's Spongebob count to six.
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: KDR_11k on March 01, 2010, 10:27:34 AM
Isn't Hudson published by Konami?
Title: Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Post by: Peachylala on March 01, 2010, 03:52:56 PM
Isn't Hudson published by Konami?
Konami owns some stake in Hudson, but it doesn't stop Hudson from publishing their games under their label.