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Gaming Forums => General Gaming => Topic started by: Mario on September 09, 2008, 10:23:23 PM

Title: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mario on September 09, 2008, 10:23:23 PM
This topic is basically about reviews, I was going to make it about how it sucks as a whole, but it got too depressing. We all know that Gamespot / IGN / 1up etc. all offer completely terrible reviews, have crap staff, and just plain embarrass themselves on a daily basis in almost every "opinion" piece they put up.

I want to use this thread to post crap reviews, and why they are crap, so if you know a crappy review for a game you own and actually know about, go nuts and post. I just came across this review that spawned this thread.

http://au.wii.ign.com/articles/907/907568p1.html - Ferrari Challenge Wii

They copy / pasted the PS3 review with a few different words. LITERALLY, it's the SAME review. No mention of the controls or controller, so this was planned. Pretty much the only unique thing about the Wii version, its motion wheel controls, not mentioned. PS3 versions online play, not talked about in that versions review. Differences between versions like frame rates, and amount of cars on screen, nope. Both versions got the exact same score despite the PS3 version having a massive amount of extra features, better graphics and better controls. However the most painful time I had comparing them was my browser struggling to breathe when I had multiple ad-infested IGN tabs open. The PS2 version also got a lower score than the Wii version (same text as well) despite being the SAME exact game with superior controls. Anwyway the review also has CLEAR flaws that can be proven as factual lies.

Lies
Quote
Even if it wouldn't be as accurate, the game would have done better to have the camera closer to the windshield.
It's a sim, that would NOT be better.
Quote
With each race running for 15 minutes or more, and with two races per weekend, that means each "event" is a good half-hour of driving. This would be fine except that if you're good and can get out in front fairly quickly, you'll spend 20+ minutes driving with no competition ahead of you.
No. There is an option in the game, to make it as short as 5 minutes. He didn't even go to the options menu, in a customisable driving simulator. The game is also much harder than that and there's no WAY you can win your first race by a large margin. Quite frankly this review could have been written just by looking at the screenshots and reading the PR info.

Contradictions
1
Quote
I'm a pretty big fan of racing games, and I love everything from Burnout to Gran Turismo.
Quote
hard to tackle most of the tracks without the driving line turned on
2
Quote
With Ferraris being your only option to drive, there isn't a ton of variety to speak of
Quote
you'll unlock faster cars, like the F50 or the FXX, and you'll also delve back into Ferrari's past with some classic rides
Quote
ranging from raw power and performance of the newer models to the rather unassisted handling of models from the '50s and earlier
The entire customisation aspect of the game is also completely ignored.

Plain stupidity
Quote
"the game feels fairly linear at times"
What? You can drive off the track into the sand if you want. What else do you expect?

This isn't a matter of opinion, the review is completely **** for having crap information. You could find more about the game on the back of the box. If it was a matter of opinion, it would still be **** because this persons has the worst personality ever, and a shitty opinion. The whole "dont give a ****" attitude is not appropriate for someone getting paid, to spend 5 minutes a day copy and pasting and making fart noises with his armpits, on the most visited gaming website in the world. Then the BIGGEST thing of all. The Wii version actually has a game breaking flaw, 1 and 2 buttons on the Wiimote do not register at all while shifting gears. Not even mentioned. Also one of my biggest problems with the game, the load times, not mentioned either.

WHAT is the point of reviews like this, if they don't help consumers? Besides being POINTLESS, which we can disregard, for the sole reason they exist. This IGN review of the game is the ONLY review up on the entire internet at  the moment. They have a copy of the game (actually, they might not) and they've completely shat on their responsibility to tell people what it's like. Sure I could put up a blog somewhere with my own review, but nobody is going to find that in google search. I've seen reviews like this before, games they think nobody will play. Games they don't WANT anybody to play. They think they can "get away" with reviews where they basically ignore the game and high five themselves during the review talking about how they licked some guys hairy balls in high school instead. I actually had my account deleted at IGN after POLITELY (yes I know hard to believe) commenting on several reviews correcting facts, so they are fully aware of their consistent level of failure.

Another reason this completely annoys me is having stupid friends who constantly spout annoying "facts" about games that they read from IGN or Gamespot and having to correct them about almost everything. It's completely embarrassing being associated with these "hardcore" game sites just because i'm heavy into videogames myself.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: DAaaMan64 on September 09, 2008, 10:33:45 PM
I actually read that shitty review and I agree. The Linear comment is ridiculous. I may pick up this game JUST because of YOU.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Caffeinated Cheese on September 09, 2008, 10:48:24 PM
Let's the three of us start an amazing review magazine.
But then we'll post everything in the magazine online for free, with more detail and pictures, then complain when people don't subscribe.

Can I run the rumor section?  Square-Enix is going to make a sequel to Final Fantasy XIII.  I'm qualified!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on September 09, 2008, 10:54:16 PM
I actually read that shitty review and I agree. The Linear comment is ridiculous. I may pick up this game JUST because of YOU.

Mario said it has a gamebreaking bug, I don't think that's a recommendation.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Nick DiMola on September 10, 2008, 03:43:09 AM
Well I know I'm kind of part of the game media myself at this point, but I couldn't agree more. Mario, you make alot of great points, but the one that really drove it home for me was this one:

I've seen reviews like this before, games they think nobody will play. Games they don't WANT anybody to play. They think they can "get away" with reviews where they basically ignore the game and high five themselves during the review talking about how they licked some guys hairy balls in high school instead.

I've seen this one a bunch of times. Sites believe a certain game is actually beneath them for whatever reason and **** all over it. IGN's Helix review (http://wii.ign.com/articles/906/906250p1.html) is a great example of this. They barely justify the 4.3 they gave it, and abstract the review with "It'll only cost you $10 and your dignity." WHAT? To me that makes it pretty clear that he felt like a tool playing it, so his way of saving other people from possibly looking uncool is to drop a huge deuce on one of the best WiiWare games available.

Alot of people did this same thing to a bunch of Wii launch games. Lowered the score because they were scared that people might actual like this whole "casual gaming" thing more than their precious Xbox 360 first person shooters. Excite Truck got a fat shaft and that still remains one of my favorite games on Wii.

Now of course, being on this side of the fence, I can put my thoughts out there and people will be able to read them. I try to show deference to everything I review even if I don't like it. I can't say I'm any sort of professional at this stuff, but even as a hobbyist I feel it is my job to provide people with correct information and give them a thorough and accurate depiction of the game so they can decide whether to Buy/Try/Avoid the game.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Morari on September 10, 2008, 07:06:13 AM
Excite Truck got a fat shaft and that still remains one of my favorite games on Wii.

I'd still be paying Excite Truck if the multiplayer split screen had been horizontal instead of vertical. As it stands, there are no options to change it, making the game very far from fun in extended multiplayer sessions. I do wish that all games would allot me the choice to play my own music in the background however.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Caliban on September 10, 2008, 07:35:59 AM
Mario if you're not aware, Chris Roper is a Gran Turismo slut, and super biased on any subject Gran Turismo, so he compares all racing games to what he thinks is a masterful game, but little does he know that Gran Turismo is a really poor example of a driving simulator.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: ShyGuy on September 10, 2008, 08:20:49 AM
LOL, IGN Australia.


1up struggles to keep their doors open and IGN can afford Australian coverage. Both ends of the financial spectrum are rotten. Destroy gaming media as a whole.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_Lindy on September 10, 2008, 11:48:54 AM
The funny thing with IGN is that they won't outline game-specific differences in a review, because they save that for their Insider head-to-heads...which you must pay for.  It's pretty disappointing.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on September 10, 2008, 01:20:43 PM
Heh, like that'd make me pay them.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on September 10, 2008, 01:44:45 PM
Nice thread, I thought I was the only one who noticed that ridiculous laziness in regards to the Ferrari Challenge Wii review.

I'll post another link to an IGN review.  Its bozo's review of Madden 09.  The game is great and all, and received a just score, but the little turd didn't mention once how the motion controls work.  Are they better than last years iteration?  Does is always throw to the right receiver?  Does it make the game more enjoyable?  Considering the game includes no classic or GC controller support, these are valid questions.
http://wii.ign.com/articles/897/897601p1.html
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mario on September 10, 2008, 09:30:46 PM
That Madden one is even more shameful because it's a very popular game. The Wii launch games is a good point, and even DS launch games, Feel the Magic and Downhill Jam are both great games who were unfortunate victims to this. If they came out now they'd be praised as "finally some more innovative new stuff!" or "a step forward".
LOL, IGN Australia.


1up struggles to keep their doors open and IGN can afford Australian coverage. Both ends of the financial spectrum are rotten. Destroy gaming media as a whole.
It just gets au put in front whenever I visit the website, that's the US content.
Mario if you're not aware, Chris Roper is a Gran Turismo slut, and super biased on any subject Gran Turismo, so he compares all racing games to what he thinks is a masterful game, but little does he know that Gran Turismo is a really poor example of a driving simulator.
I'm not aware, that makes it interesting and more expected, but a review is about a product not the person. If you were blind you wouldn't put "the game sucks because I can't see it, don't waste your time" in a review. That also confirms the theory that the review is about this guy not wanting anyone to play the game, because it's not Gran Turismo.

As for the game Ferrari Challenge there's a thread about it in the Wii board if you want to talk about that, i'll do a review for it whenever I 'finish' it. I like it but it's definitely not for everyone, not for most people in fact. Do some research before you consider it, I hear IGN has a review up. (LOL)
Quote
"It'll only cost you $10 and your dignity." WHAT? To me that makes it pretty clear that he felt like a tool playing it, so his way of saving other people from possibly looking uncool is to drop a huge deuce on one of the best WiiWare games available.
LOL horrible memories of Gamespot playing Wii Sports sitting down barely moving.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on September 10, 2008, 11:44:32 PM
BUT MOVING IS FOR CASUALS! WE MUST REMAIN HARDCORE AND SIT ON THE COUCH UNTIL WE BECOME ONE WITH IT!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Smash_Brother on September 11, 2008, 01:16:06 PM
LOL at the "fairly linear" description being used on a RACING GAME!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mario on October 17, 2008, 05:34:26 PM
IGNs Wii Music review turned out to be just pure wankery and emotionally biased, to the point where random words are manipulated and logic is ignored just to get their 3 month old point across. I would be so embarrassed to be associated with IGN.
Quote
"5.0 Lasting Appeal
60 instruments and just as many songs, not to mention the ability to trade renditions with friends. There's even a four-player jam mode. It's all there, but the core package just isn't that fun."
Huh? So the lasting appeal is awesome, despite their opinion on the game, yet the score for lasting appeal is still crap? Why even bother with it? This happens all the time too. NWR seems to be the only site to treat categories independently.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Bill Aurion on October 17, 2008, 06:55:51 PM
IGNs Wii Music review turned out to be IGN just being IGN

Yep...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_Lindy on October 18, 2008, 01:23:33 AM
Nah, it's just one man's opinion of the game.  Knowing Cassamassina's tastes, I can totally see how he'd have a "Meh" reaction to Wii Music.  Let's just say that he's looking for a quite a bit more than what that game has to offer.

I appreciate his honest review, because I figure that he generally likes what I like (for the most part, he's more of a Nintendo homer though) so can tell that I'd have the same reaction to it.  If he would have given it a 9.0, I would have really been interested in it because I know going in that he'd be a very hard person for Wii Music to please.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mario on October 18, 2008, 03:00:28 AM
Are you STUPID? BRAIN DEAD? Who cares how crap the game is, the lasting appeal thing is bottled bullshit in a can.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on October 18, 2008, 03:26:40 AM
Not only that, all the compnent scores are low for some reason.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 18, 2008, 03:39:10 AM
Lol IGN
Quote
If anything, it's only confirmed my suspicions, specifically that Nintendo's first step into the music / rhythm genre is actually a misstep

First step?

Mario Paint
Donkey Konga
Elite Beat Agents

and probably others.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on October 18, 2008, 04:24:10 AM
Was EBA actually made by Nintendo or just published by them?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on October 18, 2008, 06:50:57 AM
Was EBA actually made by Nintendo or just published by them?

Published, Inis developed Ouendan/EBA.  Namco's Taiko No Tetsujin/Taiko Drum master team made Donkey Konga. So legitimately Nintendo made the music portion of Mario Paint, Rhythm Tengoku, Wii Music. There may be some others that I'm missing though.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on October 18, 2008, 09:10:07 AM
IGNs Wii Music review turned out to be just pure wankery and emotionally biased, to the point where random words are manipulated and logic is ignored just to get their 3 month old point across. I would be so embarrassed to be associated with IGN.
Quote
"5.0 Lasting Appeal
60 instruments and just as many songs, not to mention the ability to trade renditions with friends. There's even a four-player jam mode. It's all there, but the core package just isn't that fun."
Huh? So the lasting appeal is awesome, despite their opinion on the game, yet the score for lasting appeal is still crap? Why even bother with it? This happens all the time too. NWR seems to be the only site to treat categories independently.

He never said the lasting appeal was "awesome".  He simply stated it had the potential with all of the songs and one not.  But when you have a core package thats lame, whats the point of going back?

Basically, its equivalent to a GIANT box of Fiber One cereal.   Sure, it'll last you a while, but is it something you really wanna go back to?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: mac<censored> on October 18, 2008, 03:18:04 PM
bottled bull**** in a can.
Kind of sums up IGN really...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on October 19, 2008, 06:00:52 AM
What exactly do you have a "lasting appeal" score for if it's just going to reflect the gameplay score?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on October 19, 2008, 06:08:15 AM
What exactly do you have a "lasting appeal" score for if it's just going to reflect the gameplay score?

I'm guessing it's the equivalent of the lastability score NWR has, essentially the longevity of the game + replay value and multiplayer value.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Smoke39 on October 19, 2008, 12:28:47 PM
What exactly do you have a "lasting appeal" score for if it's just going to reflect the gameplay score?

It's entirely possible for a game to be extremely fun yet also extremely short-lived.  I don't think it reflects gameplay so much as depends on it.

The issue here is whether it's better to consider potential lasting appeal (what y'all seem to be whining about) or effective lasting appeal (what IGN seems to be using).  Either way I don't see why it matters; I thought everyone here believed in valuing review content over scores for exactly this reason.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Nick DiMola on November 07, 2008, 01:03:11 PM
Alright, another IGN one.

They reviewed Pipe Mania, which I also just reviewed. I read over their review and they refer to it as a clone of Pipe Dream. Funny thing is Pipe Mania IS Pipe Dream, Pipe Dream was just a label applied by the distributor, LucasArts, when the game was ported from the Amiga to a variety of other platforms.

Furthermore, Pipe Dream/Pipe Mania is ACTUALLY INCLUDED in the game as an unlockable! What a disaster, if you are going to make a claim like that you should probably make sure you know what you're talking about...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on November 07, 2008, 01:20:29 PM
Alright, another IGN one.

They reviewed Pipe Mania, which I also just reviewed. I read over their review and they refer to it as a clone of Pipe Dream. Funny thing is Pipe Mania IS Pipe Dream, Pipe Dream was just a label applied by the distributor, LucasArts, when the game was ported from the Amiga to a variety of other platforms.

Furthermore, Pipe Dream/Pipe Mania is ACTUALLY INCLUDED in the game as an unlockable! What a disaster, if you are going to make a claim like that you should probably make sure you know what you're talking about...

I have no idea who that reviewer is, never read anything from him. Kind of funny though.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on November 07, 2008, 02:31:24 PM
Alright, another IGN one.

They reviewed Pipe Mania, which I also just reviewed. I read over their review and they refer to it as a clone of Pipe Dream. Funny thing is Pipe Mania IS Pipe Dream, Pipe Dream was just a label applied by the distributor, LucasArts, when the game was ported from the Amiga to a variety of other platforms.

Furthermore, Pipe Dream/Pipe Mania is ACTUALLY INCLUDED in the game as an unlockable! What a disaster, if you are going to make a claim like that you should probably make sure you know what you're talking about...

I have no idea who that reviewer is, never read anything from him. Kind of funny though.

Sam Bishop?  Never heard of him, must be a holiday intern.  Too bad for him, Rupert is gonna have his head on a platter for this one.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on November 07, 2008, 11:19:02 PM
Rupert values accuracy?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: RABicle on November 08, 2008, 06:35:02 AM
I like where this is heading.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Caliban on November 09, 2008, 07:23:15 PM
Sam Bishop is most likely one of their freelance reviewers, and I've seen several of his reviews, so he's definitely not new.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BeautifulShy on November 10, 2008, 05:51:35 PM
Http://wii.ign.com/articles/928/928479p1.html
^IGN TOS:DotNW review.

This is a horrible review.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on November 10, 2008, 10:01:18 PM
Http://wii.ign.com/articles/928/928479p1.html
^IGN TOS:DotNW review.

This is a horrible review.

Maxi you should read his review of Rhapsody: A Musical Adventure on DS it's as equally laughable. Why would they have Daemon review and RPG if he clearly dislikes basic RPG conventions?!?!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on November 10, 2008, 10:11:14 PM
Cuz they probably didn't get any perks from the publisher, so they're retaliating.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BeautifulShy on November 10, 2008, 10:53:11 PM
Flames I agree with you. It is ridiculous what spouts out of  that reviews mouth. He was the same reviewer that did Helix and he was so fucking self conscience about looking like a fool.Who the hell cares!
This review he was complaining about inane and irrelevant things.
Rapsody was the same story as the Tales review.

God I despise IGN reviewers now.
Pro you are probably right.

I have to go to bed now so I can get this horrible review out of my head.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on November 10, 2008, 11:44:51 PM
I saw a comment on another of his reviews, "does that guy always write only two paragraphs?"

I guess overall he's incompetent. Maybe it's time for a mail campaign to get him fired?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Urkel on November 11, 2008, 01:46:08 AM
I'm pretty sure Daemon doesn't want to be on the IGN Nintendo channel. (http://blogs.ign.com/daemon-IGN/2008/07/17/96399/)

He's probably taking that anger out on the games he reviews.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on November 11, 2008, 01:50:46 AM
Yeah, Nintendo sucks, makes no hardcore games, let's pan the RPGs on their platform!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BeautifulShy on November 11, 2008, 01:59:16 AM
That is a problem when the reviewer takes his vendetta with the console it never ends good for the consumer.That person is to judge the game on its own merits.Not comparing it to other games or having a vendetta!!!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Dasmos on November 11, 2008, 03:57:57 AM
He was the same reviewer that did Helix and he was so fuckingself conscience about looking like a fool.

Holy crap, Maxi swore. I haven't seen Maxi swear before.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BeautifulShy on November 11, 2008, 05:00:07 AM
Yeah I did.Reviews like this get me mad. From previous reviews from this "reviewer" I have had enough. You know you just got to let it out.

Don't expect this to be a regular occurrence.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mario on November 11, 2008, 05:15:44 AM
Welcome to the light Maxi
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BeautifulShy on November 11, 2008, 05:33:48 AM
Yeah IGN is off my list of review sites.I try to give sites 3 chances before I toss them aside with reckless abandon.The three reviews were Helix,Wii Music, and Finally TOS:DotNW. I am still trying to decide on another site other than NWR.There was another site that I went to for the reviews but most of the staff left. And the reviews aren't popping up in a timely fashion.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on November 11, 2008, 05:34:39 AM
Flames I agree with you. It is ridiculous what spouts out of  that reviews mouth. He was the same reviewer that did Helix and he was so fucking self conscience about looking like a fool.Who the hell cares!
This review he was complaining about inane and irrelevant things.
Rapsody was the same story as the Tales review.

God I despise IGN reviewers now.
Pro you are probably right.

I have to go to bed now so I can get this horrible review out of my head.

My main problem with IGN reviews as a whole is that usually they can't come up with valid criticisms or just ends up looking pathetic and full of angst and outright bitching about how this game sucks without no reason.

Yeah IGN is off my list of review sites.I try to give sites 3 chances before I toss them aside with reckless abandon.The three reviews were Helix,Wii Music, and Finally TOS:DotNW. I am still trying to decide on another site other than NWR.There was another site that I went to for the reviews but most of the staff left. And the reviews aren't popping up in a timely fashion.

I usually tend to go to the smaller sites for reviews since they are truthful and more honest, I usually like destructoid (although sometimes their ego gets to them and trash the game IGN style) and Chris Kholer's Game life blog.  Game trailers is also pretty good with their reviews in general and a old time NWR staffer is on there (Bloodworth).
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BeautifulShy on November 11, 2008, 05:43:56 AM
Yeah you convaide what I was feeling in a more calm manner.

Well I don't really care what IGN thinks anymore. I am going down to Target and get this game later today.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: MaleficentOgre on November 12, 2008, 03:36:56 PM
IGN gets a bad rap. Yes they're pretty awful at everything they do but I find them to be the least pretentious of all the big time gaming sites and mags out there. There's no journalistic integrity going on there. 1up thinks so highly of themselves like they're God's personal gift to games and they're the same as everyone else. Gamespot has critical issues in how it reviews their games. IGN just doesn't care. They're dominant in their market for crazy obvious reasons and their fans are insane. It's pretty astounding the culture they've built up there. 
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on November 12, 2008, 04:29:21 PM
IGN gets a bad rap. Yes they're pretty awful at everything they do but I find them to be the least pretentious of all the big time gaming sites and mags out there. 

I mostly agree, I'd have to say while they are certainly the least pretentious, they're actually better at what the do then what they credit for.  Plus they produce the Game Scoop Podcast which is easily the best general gaming podcast in existence.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BeautifulShy on November 12, 2008, 07:28:55 PM
Flames the site I was talking about was thewiire.com.

Back before the Wii came out and it was still called Revolution. I looked for Wii news sites.Back in the GC days I did this as well.I found this excellent site.

Yeah I looked at GT before this IGN mess. I like how they do their reviews.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on November 12, 2008, 07:38:40 PM
IGN Wii is still my favorite site, I respect both Matt and Mark for their opinions and tend to find them quite informative. Not a big fan of the newer people though like Daemon.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Shift Key on November 13, 2008, 12:58:39 AM
Why would they have Daemon review and RPG if he clearly dislikes basic RPG conventions?!?!

Maybe its like Deg and those Yu-Gi-Oh reviews...

Are things so slow that we've had to bring back 2002 and ragging on IGN again for their review quality?

EDIT: or whatever year it was we were laughing at the lack of "skins" for Mario Kart : Double Dash being a serious criticism...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on November 13, 2008, 02:19:21 AM
2003: the year GameCube died.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on November 13, 2008, 12:57:38 PM
http://gonintendo.com/?p=62925

THANKS, with that summary I've learned NOTHING NOTHING about HOW IT PLAYS.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BeautifulShy on November 13, 2008, 01:22:49 PM
I saw no mention of the battle system. It is like they are trying to find something wrong with the game.

Now if you excuse me I am going to play Streets of Rage 2.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Urkel on November 13, 2008, 02:12:58 PM
I saw these at Neogaf and thought that they were relevant to this topic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s0lzbCK9f8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s0lzbCK9f8)
*Bad language warning*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5-zAljF4B0&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5-zAljF4B0&feature=related)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Stogi on November 13, 2008, 02:50:55 PM
I feel like a Republican for saying this, but the gaming media is terribly bias; not necessarily towards one company (though that is there), but towards themselves and their site. Some of the biggest sites like IGN have an agenda and it sucks. Matt has always been looking out for his reputation. Just like many journalists in the field, he's looking out for himself and not for us. The sad thing is, even with editors egos as high as they are, they still report on GAMES; something that isn't even remotely important or of worth.

It's sad.

But that's the reason I like this site so much. They do it for free. They do it not for money, but for their own interest and passion. You can really tell.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BeautifulShy on November 13, 2008, 02:57:23 PM
OMG that was hilarious.That Tomb Raider one about a deeper storyline.That Goldeneye one was rediculious.

Stogi I totally agree with you on every point.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on November 13, 2008, 07:29:23 PM
I feel like a Republican for saying this, but the gaming media is terribly bias; not necessarily towards one company (though that is there), but towards themselves and their site. Some of the biggest sites like IGN have an agenda and it sucks. Matt has always been looking out for his reputation. Just like many journalists in the field, he's looking out for himself and not for us. The sad thing is, even with editors egos as high as they are, they still report on GAMES; something that isn't even remotely important or of worth.

It's sad.

But that's the reason I like this site so much. They do it for free. They do it not for money, but for their own interest and passion. You can really tell.

I agree.  They definitely look out for their own reputation, unwilling to go against the mentality of the herd.  But fortunately, it does come back to bite them every now and then.  I'll never forgot SurferGirl ripping on Hillary Goldstein after he stated in all soberness that the acting in GTA 4 was certainly  "oscar caliber".

Her blog has since been removed, but here's the original post:

I was looking through Hilary Goldstein's previous reviews and couldn't help but notice a pattern.

The Armadillo Cowboy Club Review
This is the cowboy's dream.
by Hilary Goldstein

November 25, 2001 - Coyotes are an ugly, cowardly lot more worthy of pity and disdain than admiration. This is what you'll learn playing through the single-player campaign in Wild Heart Ranch's The Armadillo Cowboy Club. The series cheered (and criticized) for glorifying nonviolence has taken an unexpected turn: it's gone legit. Oh sure, you'll still capture criminal coyotes, fire slingshots laden with bees, send lassos soaring, engage in street shootouts and saloon fights and do many, many other good deeds, affirming main character Sam the Rattler's beliefs. The Armadillo Cowboy Club gives us characters and a world with a level of depth previously unseen in gaming and elevates its story from a mere slapstick western to an Oscar-caliber drama. Every facet of Wild Heart Ranch's new masterpiece is worthy of applause. Without question, The Armadillo Cowboy Club is the best game since Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time.


*NSYNC Get to the Show Review
This is the pop dream.
by Hilary Goldstein

December 5, 2001 - Pop stars are an fantastic, beautiful lot more worthy of admiration than pity and disdain. This is what you'll learn playing through the single-player campaign in Infogrames's *NSYNC Get to the Show. The series cheered (and criticized) for glorifying the musical superstar's rider has taken an unexpected turn: it's gone legit. Oh sure, you'll still play hackey sack, run the band's errands, cook burgers, assist Lance and JC and do many, many other crazy deeds, with a reward to putting together a hot *NSYNC concert complete with cool dance moves, sensational lighting and life-affirming music. *NSYNC Get to the Show gives us characters and a world with a level of depth previously unseen in gaming and elevates its songs from a raucous community theater production to an Tony-caliber musical. Every facet of Infogrames's new masterpiece is worthy of applause. Without question, *NSYNC Get to the Show is the best game since Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time.


Fascinating.


Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on November 18, 2008, 10:47:00 PM
Here's another crappy review 1UP's review of Castlevania Judgement (http://www.1up.com/do/reviewPage?cId=3171390&p=44). The review is so short I can in fact just quote it on here.

Quote
Castlevania's seen some interesting evolutions, going from plodding 2D side-scroller to Metroid-like exploration adventure to 3D Devil May Cry clone. But fighter Castlevania: Judgment is one evolution I never expected.

In Konami's words, this is a "Versus Action" game -- an amalgamation that fuses action-game mechanics with a fighter. In my words, it's the bastard son of neologism. Beyond the strange art direction, Judgment suffers from jarring mechanics that disregard established fighting conventions. The uncompromising camera displays the action in a bizarre, disconcerting manner that tracks players in a 3D area filled with environmental hazards. And in combat, the camera's way too difficult to control.

As the two warriors move independently around the stage, the camera doesn't adjust according to their positions, focusing instead on whoever's in front of the camera. It bobs and weaves back, forth, left, and right -- constantly flip-flopping between the two characters in a not-quite-over-the-shoulder perspective. It's highly disorienting, and it's almost impossible to gauge the correct distance between players, especially when one's in the background while the other is in the foreground. Spacing (a crucial strategic factor in fighting games) is thrown and tossed aside in favor of a loose mechanic that affords too much freedom of movement. And because most special attacks are terrible at restricting the opponent's space and options, you often spend more time chasing after an opponent than engaging them. In short, matches are sloppy, silly, tiresome, and infuriating.

The camera isn't the only shortcoming. Character design stands at the center of every fighter -- and unfortunately for Castlevania's cast of vampires and vampire killers, Judgment leans dangerously over the edge. Characters vary in quality, from formidable to throwaway to forgettable. Series mainstays Simon Belmont, Alucard, and Maria Renard all carry themselves with conviction, but most of the second-tier guys -- especially Golem and Cornell -- feel underpowered and anemic. As such, outwardly screwy character balance ruins any potential respectability.

As a fighter, Castlevania Judgment employs too many design ideas that are neither well planned nor well executed. It's a strange misstep for the beloved series, one that Konami hopefully learns from.

So in angsty terms "this sucks this sucks this sucks I hate it so much I won't properly write a review!!!!1111"
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: DAaaMan64 on November 18, 2008, 11:30:02 PM
http://wii.ign.com/articles/931/931583p2.html

IGN gave it a 7.5

Quote
Gameplay
There's a lot to experience, with a large roster, different styles, counters, guard crushes, supers, charged specials, and sub-weapons with Item Crushes added in. Camera is a pain.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Infernal Monkey on November 19, 2008, 12:59:45 AM
1UP's reviews are always really short and for the most part, really useless.

You know, I've been writing reviews for the unknown website world of A-N for almost a year now. One of the better moments was watching people get honestly offended at my The Incredible Maze review when GoNintendo linked to it.

I can see why so many reviewers are such dicks.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on November 19, 2008, 01:39:11 AM
1up: Trolling the internets to drive up page views.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on November 22, 2008, 02:58:59 AM
To add another one:
G4 gives CvJ 1/5 (http://www.g4tv.com/xplay/reviews/1881/Castlevania_Judgment.html), calls it very shallow and imbalanced.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: DAaaMan64 on November 22, 2008, 11:30:33 AM
To add another one:
G4 gives CvJ 1/5 (http://www.g4tv.com/xplay/reviews/1881/Castlevania_Judgment.html), calls it very shallow and imbalanced.

Wow a one out of five.... I think they are in the minority on that.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on November 22, 2008, 11:38:26 AM
To add another one:
G4 gives CvJ 1/5 (http://www.g4tv.com/xplay/reviews/1881/Castlevania_Judgment.html), calls it very shallow and imbalanced.

Wow a one out of five.... I think they are in the minority on that.

Nope, 1up gave it a D-

I know looks aren't everything, but from the videos I've seen, the game lacks serious personality as well.  I wouldn't even take it out for a one night stand, no matter how good the controls are.  At the end of the day, its nothing more than a castle filled to the brim with rabbit pellets and its now being called for what it is.

Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on November 24, 2008, 10:25:27 AM
I pretty much knew that review outlets would trash the game to high heaven. Those scores are not surprising.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: blackfootsteps on November 24, 2008, 04:16:05 PM
http://gonintendo.com/?p=62925

THANKS, with that summary I've learned NOTHING NOTHING about HOW IT PLAYS.

Unless you love 'pointless meandering' as much as I do.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on November 26, 2008, 10:36:44 AM
To add another one:
G4 gives CvJ 1/5 (http://www.g4tv.com/xplay/reviews/1881/Castlevania_Judgment.html), calls it very shallow and imbalanced.

Anyone that takes G4 and X-Play seriously should give up gaming altogether.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on November 26, 2008, 11:19:46 AM
To add another one:
G4 gives CvJ 1/5 (http://www.g4tv.com/xplay/reviews/1881/Castlevania_Judgment.html), calls it very shallow and imbalanced.

Anyone who takes review scores that seriously should give up gaming all together.

Anyone that takes G4 and X-Play seriously should give up gaming altogether.

doh!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on November 27, 2008, 01:22:48 AM
Anyone who can't figure out where to put his text when quoting should give up posting.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 01, 2008, 12:48:06 PM
http://gonintendo.com/?p=64685

You aren't required to learn how to play video games to be a reviewer these days.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on December 01, 2008, 01:06:21 PM
http://gonintendo.com/?p=64685

You aren't required to learn how to play video games to be a reviewer these days.

WOW...

Has the gaming media stooped so low that a one paragraph review that lacks details and information can be considered passable?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on December 01, 2008, 01:21:36 PM
Why did you link to a blog that links to the article rather than post the direct link?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 01, 2008, 01:24:04 PM
That, is the comedy of the internets.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on December 01, 2008, 05:03:26 PM
GoNintendo is the worst internet dump site on the internet.  Its for 10 year olds that have never heard of an RSS reader.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: EasyCure on December 01, 2008, 05:05:17 PM
there is an edit button, you know that right?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on December 01, 2008, 05:43:55 PM
WTF, I hit the edit button!  This is the worst site!!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: EasyCure on December 01, 2008, 06:05:11 PM
lol sounds like gonintendo comments.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on December 01, 2008, 06:36:37 PM
hahaha...pretty much.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: vudu on December 02, 2008, 11:04:40 AM
GoNintendo is the worst internet dump site on the internet.  Its for 10 year olds that have never heard of an RSS reader.

I have GoNintendo in my RSS reader.  Just sayin'.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on December 02, 2008, 12:09:59 PM
GoNintendo is the worst internet dump site on the internet.  Its for 10 year olds that have never heard of an RSS reader.

I have GoNintendo in my RSS reader.  Just sayin'.

I have every site on the internet in mine except for GoNintendo, Gamespot, and Foxnews.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on December 06, 2008, 01:44:11 AM
You know, I've been writing reviews for the unknown website world of A-N for almost a year now. One of the better moments was watching people get honestly offended at my The Incredible Maze review when GoNintendo linked to it.

Wow... out of curiousity I hunted your review down and read it. Poor Digital Leisure.

Quote
Genre: Nightmare

lol
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on December 06, 2008, 03:57:56 PM
Here's one that our UK readers will probably appreciate the most (or soccer fans in general)

IGN's reviews of  Worldwide Soccer Manager '09.

US review: 2.0 http://au.pc.ign.com/articles/936/936295p1.html

UK review: 9.1 http://au.pc.ign.com/articles/930/930213p2.html

Clearly as a game where you manager a soccer team the US editor simply had no idea how to play it so he gave it a 2.0 and here are some glorious highlights:

Quote
Although the game's database of more than 350,000 real-life soccer players is certainly impressive, only the most diehard fans of the sport would be able to appreciate having such a massive pool of talent to sift through, and the casual fan would almost certainly find the task overwhelming – I did.

Quote
4.0 Gameplay
Yes, the depth of management in this game is impressive. But, it’s not impressive enough to make up for the fact that you aren’t actually playing soccer.

Quote
I couldn’t imagine why anybody would prefer Worldwide Soccer Manager to FIFA 09 or Pro Evolution Soccer 2009.

Basically the US review is basically bitching how a Soccer management game isn't a Soccer sport simulator.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Nick DiMola on December 06, 2008, 04:41:35 PM
Wow. I wish I had other words to say, but all I can come up with is wow.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on December 06, 2008, 06:01:27 PM
Here's one that our UK readers will probably appreciate the most (or soccer fans in general)

IGN's reviews of  Worldwide Soccer Manager '09.

US review: 2.0 http://au.pc.ign.com/articles/936/936295p1.html

UK review: 9.1 http://au.pc.ign.com/articles/930/930213p2.html

Clearly as a game where you manager a soccer team the US editor simply had no idea how to play it so he gave it a 2.0 and here are some glorious highlights:

Quote
Although the game's database of more than 350,000 real-life soccer players is certainly impressive, only the most diehard fans of the sport would be able to appreciate having such a massive pool of talent to sift through, and the casual fan would almost certainly find the task overwhelming – I did.

Quote
4.0 Gameplay
Yes, the depth of management in this game is impressive. But, it’s not impressive enough to make up for the fact that you aren’t actually playing soccer.

Quote
I couldn’t imagine why anybody would prefer Worldwide Soccer Manager to FIFA 09 or Pro Evolution Soccer 2009.

Basically the US review is basically bitching how a Soccer management game isn't a Soccer sport simulator.

HAHAHAHAHAHHA.  WOW.  I had to check the link just to verify.  Now, I'm not sure what this is a more specific commentary on, the quality of interns at IGN, our the ability of the US to appreciate any sport other than American Football.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on December 06, 2008, 07:43:11 PM
Here's one that our UK readers will probably appreciate the most (or soccer fans in general)

IGN's reviews of  Worldwide Soccer Manager '09.

US review: 2.0 http://au.pc.ign.com/articles/936/936295p1.html

UK review: 9.1 http://au.pc.ign.com/articles/930/930213p2.html

Clearly as a game where you manager a soccer team the US editor simply had no idea how to play it so he gave it a 2.0 and here are some glorious highlights:

Quote
Although the game's database of more than 350,000 real-life soccer players is certainly impressive, only the most diehard fans of the sport would be able to appreciate having such a massive pool of talent to sift through, and the casual fan would almost certainly find the task overwhelming – I did.

Quote
4.0 Gameplay
Yes, the depth of management in this game is impressive. But, it’s not impressive enough to make up for the fact that you aren’t actually playing soccer.

Quote
I couldn’t imagine why anybody would prefer Worldwide Soccer Manager to FIFA 09 or Pro Evolution Soccer 2009.

Basically the US review is basically bitching how a Soccer management game isn't a Soccer sport simulator.

So basically he is complaining that the game is a soccer managing simulator, even though he likely KNEW what the game was about before he reviewed it.

See, this is another a major problem with reviewers. They get assigned games they either don't care about or don't understand. When you review a game you must show interest and try to be as fair as possible. I know deadlines are important but you shouldn't assign reviews just because you need them to be posted in a couple of hours.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mikintosh on December 07, 2008, 02:14:11 PM
Ever since I read IGN's review (http://xbox.ign.com/articles/391/391924p1.html) of the Xbox Marvel vs. Capcom 2 port which was given a 3.0 out of 10 not because of its content, but because it simply wasn't online, I've lost my faith in their ability to not act like idiots.

Quote
Closing Comments

You're better off picking up a Dreamcast and a copy of this game for $40 rather than spending that $40 on the Xbox version. At least that way you can perpetrate like you're a hardcore gamer.

This game is too old to be worth 80% of a real Xbox game and not old enough to get the nod from nostalgic "old school" gamers. MvsC2 is a disaster waiting to happen when a good-intentioned older female relative wanders into a retailer to pick up something "new" for you.

All of this hostility is because it's not an online fighting game as originally promised and instead is just another 2D fighter with outdated graphics on the most powerful home console around. It's not that 2D fighting is dead, but it damn sure doesn't need to be resurrected in this fashion.

(Just added a quote and a link, hope you don't mind Mik! - Mr. Jack)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 07, 2008, 03:54:03 PM
Dude, any game should get a 4/10 just for running on AC electrical currents.

WHAT'S THE INTERNET COMING TO?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Nick DiMola on December 07, 2008, 04:24:07 PM
Man there sure are alot of IGN links in this thread...

I have to wonder how these reviews got the green light from the editor.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on December 07, 2008, 06:30:04 PM
2002: The year my faith in online review sites died.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on December 07, 2008, 08:11:12 PM
Man there sure are alot of IGN links in this thread...

I have to wonder how these reviews got the green light from the editor.

Very true, but I'm sure there'd be even more Gamestop...er.....I mean CNET reviews if anyone bothered to stop over there anymore.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on December 08, 2008, 04:22:40 AM
Man there sure are alot of IGN links in this thread...

I have to wonder how these reviews got the green light from the editor.

"It'll cause controversy and make people link to us, that drives advertisement views!"
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Plugabugz on December 08, 2008, 05:56:49 AM
If you think IGN Wii is bad... some of the reviews being spat out of IGN TV are incredible.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on December 08, 2008, 07:21:00 AM
Example please?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Plugabugz on December 08, 2008, 08:21:41 AM
http://uk.tv.ign.com/articles/887/887726p1.html - I don't know how this can be considered a review when it's so short.
http://uk.tv.ign.com/articles/825/825529p1.html - I don't even know what to say about this one.

I realise the writing style and the content reviewed is different but it feels fanboyish.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: RABicle on December 08, 2008, 08:59:12 PM
Here's one that our UK readers will probably appreciate the most (or soccer fans in general)

IGN's reviews of  Worldwide Soccer Manager '09.

US review: 2.0 http://au.pc.ign.com/articles/936/936295p1.html

UK review: 9.1 http://au.pc.ign.com/articles/930/930213p2.html
http://au.pc.ign.com/articles/936/936295p1.html
Well they've pulled it. However IGN still doesn't bother to edit any of their work. They called the game Worldwide Soccer Manager 2008, not one, not two but five times.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Plugabugz on December 09, 2008, 12:19:42 AM
I noticed the same thingat IGN TV. Grammatical errors, spelling errors, they even had a review that was about 6 lines.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on December 09, 2008, 12:49:43 AM
Well, bravo to IGN for pulling it. Maybe now they'll be more diligent and give professional writing and writers their due.

However Plugabugz, I don't exactly feel the need to criticize their TV section on those items you linked. I agree, it's horrible to think of those things as reviews, but I get the sense that TV really is a different medium with different styles of coverage. I'd like the write-ups fine if they were called something else, but what? Recommendations? Responses? I really am at a loss as to what to call them.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: RABicle on December 09, 2008, 01:50:50 AM
Yeah to force the gaming style 1-10 review system bullshit on them is a joke.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on December 09, 2008, 03:11:09 AM
Well, to force a 1-10 rating system on games is also considered evil by some.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Plugabugz on December 09, 2008, 03:23:44 AM
They can't call that episode of Stargate Atlantis a 10 (which i felt was good but not THAT good) and Metroid Prime 3 reaching 9.5. Yes they are different mediums but what stops Metroid Prime from missing that 0.5 that Atlantis doesn't?

If they called it "thoughts" i would have been less critical of it.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: RABicle on December 09, 2008, 06:27:23 AM
Yeah but it's not like they're thinking on those strings of letters posted onto the internet.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on December 09, 2008, 11:11:11 AM
The ugliness of IGN's review system hit it's festering point with me after the reviews of Metal Gear Solid 4. The game did not deserve a ten. Yet, then came Super Mario Galaxy. It was a fantastic game, but was docked three points by Matt for the camera. Okay, fair enough, but three points seems a bit over done. I thought Mario Galaxy's camera was a massive improvement over Sunshine's camera. It made Galaxy a wonderful experience.

Off topic, Infernal did an excellent review of Sonic Unleashed for the Wii.

Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on December 09, 2008, 11:21:08 AM
Actually, I generally like Cassamassina's and many IGN WII reviews done my their core staff. It's the rest of IGN that I usually take issue with. It's like IGN Wii is one of the few IGN places that review decently, which is actually somewhat sad because the rest of IGN's review scores are so incongruent in quality.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Luigi Dude on December 09, 2008, 11:39:39 AM
Actually, I generally like Cassamassina's and many IGN WII reviews done my their core staff. It's the rest of IGN that I usually take issue with. It's like IGN Wii is one of the few IGN places that review decently, which is actually somewhat sad because the rest of IGN's review scores are so incongruent in quality.

That's because the Sony and Microsoft section of IGN ever since 2002 have been in a review war with each other, where each side always has to outdo the other.  This is why 98% of all major Playstation or Xbox titles since then always receive scores around 95% or higher.

Of course I don't find the Nintendo sections all that better either thanks to Matt.  Now I feel Matt generally does good reviews (except for his pathetic Wii Music one), but he turns a lot of his reviews as well as most news articles into his own personal blog and acts like all Nintendo games should be like he wants them to be because his opinion is the only right one it seems.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Nick DiMola on December 09, 2008, 11:52:24 AM
More fodder, this time it's Kotaku. Their reviews are awful piles of nonsense. This isn't because they don't assign a score, but because they seem to always feel the need to tell me nothing about a game except for a few meaningless points that typically are lost on anyone who hasn't already played the game. Furthermore, they always try to give a balance of pros and cons which never really puts forth whether a game is worth **** or not.

Their most recent travesty is one of the worst I've read yet. Persona 4 (http://kotaku.com/5104877/persona-4-review-getting-away-with-murder). Prepare to facepalm.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on December 09, 2008, 11:59:57 AM
More fodder, this time it's Kotaku. Their reviews are awful piles of nonsense. This isn't because they don't assign a score, but because they seem to always feel the need to tell me nothing about a game except for a few meaningless points that typically are lost on anyone who hasn't already played the game. Furthermore, they always try to give a balance of pros and cons which never really puts forth whether a game is worth **** or not.

Their most recent travesty is one of the worst I've read yet. Persona 4 (http://kotaku.com/5104877/persona-4-review-getting-away-with-murder). Prepare to facepalm.

I think Mr. Jack is an example of the pathetic state of the gaming media. Who agrees?

::raises her hand::

Your Mr. Pants has no power over me anymore!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Nick DiMola on December 09, 2008, 12:04:31 PM
Your Mr. Pants has no power over me anymore!

But look at his nifty hat!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on December 09, 2008, 02:13:47 PM
Quote
but he turns a lot of his reviews as well as most news articles into his own personal blog and acts like all Nintendo games should be like he wants them to be because his opinion is the only right one it seems.
*coughKidIcaruscough*
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: RABicle on December 17, 2008, 02:34:09 AM
Quick IGN for ya
Quote
Perhaps with the exception of the third film in the series, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix is without a doubt the most visually impressive chapter in Potter's ongoing cinematic journey.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Dasmos on December 17, 2008, 02:53:58 AM
ahahaha order of the phoenix is the 5th harry potter.

**** harry potter
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: EasyCure on December 17, 2008, 08:30:55 AM
Your Mr. Pants has no power over me anymore!

But look at his nifty hat!

THE COLORS DON'T MATCH!

I'm sorry but a mismatched top and bottom just aren't sexy.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mikintosh on December 18, 2008, 11:14:41 AM
Actually, I do have a problem with people saying that numbers shouldn't be included with video game reviews; like stars in movie reviews, it helps me contextualizes all of the comments made elsewhere in the review to make it clear what the person actually thought of the game overall. Kotaku's reviews, especially, don't have enough content in them in order for me to figure out whether a game would be a 7 or an 8, and when I'm shopping with a limited budget, I want to know pretty exactly how good this $60 disc is supposed to be. If Roger Ebert has no qualms using stars, then video game journalists shouldn't think they're better, because they're not.

I hold up the little video game reviews that Toonami used to run as a prime example on how to create a short, entertaining video game reviews that, while lacking in depth, hit all the right points. A lot of Internet sites could learn from those.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on December 19, 2008, 04:38:28 PM
So Hillary Goldstein gave GTA 4 a perfect 10 in every category but he doesn't give it game of the year??  Huh?  Just as I suspected.  If you're going to be a complete tool, at least be a consistent tool.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mario on December 19, 2008, 06:33:45 PM
Some companies held out their review money for GOTY money I guess.
Quote
Kotaku's reviews, especially, don't have enough content in them in order for me to figure out whether a game would be a 7 or an 8, and when I'm shopping with a limited budget, I want to know pretty exactly how good this $60 disc is supposed to be.
Uh, the fact is the numbers are always wrong too. "I might skip this game because it's only 8 worthy and my budget is 9's and up" is a completely retarded way of thinking that leads to unhappiness.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mikintosh on December 20, 2008, 03:37:38 AM
Some companies held out their review money for GOTY money I guess.
Quote
Kotaku's reviews, especially, don't have enough content in them in order for me to figure out whether a game would be a 7 or an 8, and when I'm shopping with a limited budget, I want to know pretty exactly how good this $60 disc is supposed to be.
Uh, the fact is the numbers are always wrong too. "I might skip this game because it's only 8 worthy and my budget is 9's and up" is a completely retarded way of thinking that leads to unhappiness.

It's not a hard and fast rule, and I never buy a game based on a number without reading the whole review first. And how can the numbers be "wrong"? They're a person's subjective opinion, just like anything else in their review. Not using them doesn't make for a better review, as all the same bases need to be covered whether or not they're there (and again, many reputable publications and reviewers use star ratings). This whole sub-argument is bizarre; the problem is big egos and crappy writing/journalism among these people, not how the damn things are formatted.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on December 20, 2008, 06:46:38 AM
Even more, some reviews fail to convey the score properly and would leave you with a completely different impression of the game's quality than intended.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on December 20, 2008, 11:46:54 AM
IGN PC gave Sins of the Solar Empire game of the year even though it wasn't even close to their highest rated game. (It got a a 89)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on December 20, 2008, 11:52:03 AM
Actually, I commend IGN for ignoring their review numbers when deciding on a game of the year.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on December 20, 2008, 04:39:45 PM
Actually, I commend IGN for ignoring their review numbers when deciding on a game of the year.

Come on, if you're giving a game a 10.0 for every category for the first time in history, logic demands that it is the best game of all time (in their eyes of course), or at the very least, for that year.  In my opinion, the 360 IGN team have committed intellectual and journalistic suicide.  As I'm sure we all suspected, their numbering system is not only flippant, but completely meaningless.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on December 20, 2008, 05:35:51 PM
Actually, I commend IGN for ignoring their review numbers when deciding on a game of the year.

Come on, if you're giving a game a 10.0 for every category for the first time in history, logic demands that it is the best game of all time (in their eyes of course), or at the very least, for that year.  In my opinion, the 360 IGN team have committed intellectual and journalistic suicide.  As I'm sure we all suspected, their numbering system is not only flippant, but completely meaningless.

Well to be fair with the IGN PC guys, Sins of the Solar Empire was being worked on constantly long after launch so it isn't surprising that the game improved to possibly be game of the year. GTAIV on the other hand, um, yeah I can't really defend their goofy system for not picking that game for GotY.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on December 21, 2008, 12:31:14 AM
Maybe they played the PC version shortly before the voting...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on December 23, 2008, 09:31:39 PM
Heres another classic one PS2 version of Guilty Gear Accent core getting an 8.5 and the Wii version getting a 5.9 because the reviewer judged it playing on the Wii remote and nunchuk as the default controller. The same reviewer reviewed both versions.

 Epic LULZ (http://wii.ign.com/articles/828/828947p2.html)

Quote from: Second Paragraph of the review
But before we really get started, we're going to come out and make things as clear as possible: if you own a Classic Controller, you might as well stop reading this article and hop over to the PS2 review instead, because if you're fortunate enough to have the controller handy, you'll be having virtually the exact same experience that PS2 owners are having with the game, and it's a great experience. If you're confined to the Wii Remote and Nunchuck setup, this is a very different and much worse game. So let's really get this show on the road.

Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: nickmitch on December 23, 2008, 10:39:18 PM
I could've sworn that the whole point of giving you multiple control options was to make sure that one actually worked for people who played it. 
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Nick DiMola on December 24, 2008, 05:56:03 AM
It's like IGN doesn't understand that reviewing Wii games requires a different set of criteria than reviewing other games. If there are multiple controls options, the developer should be commended, not berated. That option gave them the ability to test with some unconventional controls, all while providing the same core functional controls that exist across other platforms. No other system gives that flexibility.

If time with the game proves that the controls are not up to par, mention it and move on, it doesn't mean that you should rate down the game a single point. I mean, it's Guilty Gear, no fan of that game would even dream of using the Wii Remote and Nunchuk anyway, so why rate it as if that is going to be the control scheme of choice?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on December 24, 2008, 08:46:25 AM
So, having multiple controls is bad, but being forced motion controls without any other option is bad as well?

Is it no wonder that game sites are slowly losing credibility with each passing day?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on December 26, 2008, 08:12:31 PM
I'm surprised no one has torn apart an MGS4 review yet. I would, but I don't feel like it.  :P
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BeautifulShy on December 28, 2008, 04:26:15 AM
I'm surprised no one has torn apart an MGS4 review yet. I would, but I don't feel like it.  :P
Bill's take on the game (http://Http://nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=25446.0)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on December 29, 2008, 11:01:40 AM
That basically made my day. =D
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on January 04, 2009, 09:44:33 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/CONFUZZLED_MUNKIE/9va2w5.jpg)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: ShyGuy on January 04, 2009, 10:13:35 PM
Game Trailers voted GTAIV Game of the Year. You suck Game Trailers.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 04, 2009, 10:16:18 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/CONFUZZLED_MUNKIE/9va2w5.jpg)

Wow that is like the most condescending, elitist "defense" I've read.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Luigi Dude on January 04, 2009, 10:22:38 PM
You want to see some integrity, here's 1UP's integrity.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/luigidude/Gearsreview.jpg)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on January 05, 2009, 01:29:43 AM
I thought we just agreed to rate the final game experience, not the sum of its components?

Is there more to that review or is that the whole text? In the latter case I'd say complete failure to communicate. It sounds like he wanted to say how insignificant the problems are but didn't touch on the positives.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on January 05, 2009, 03:12:15 AM
I get what Luigi Dude is saying.  For a game that gets their highest score, he spends a good deal of time ragging on the flaws of it, in no uncertain terms and not with any assuaging language.  Yet it still gets that score. 

Now I'm not about to say he probably got goodies or money from PR departments, but I will say that it has happened before, for less important games.  And when Gamespot got busted for it, notice how 1up held a mini-rally against said practice, even though they reveal it was only a short walk.  You'd imagine that maybe, probably the PR guy went to their offices too?  And that the protest irks of projection all over.

In fact, to really hammer in on why that "protest" bugs me, was because of the total insignificance of it all.  If they really wanted to impress people, they should have started a strict "no press goodies" policy and probably sent back most of it (keeping, maybe, the pens).  But there was utter silence on that end.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on January 05, 2009, 07:10:56 AM
Making fun of bad game reviews is more fun then mocking GI's stupidity!

Which kind of falls into the same boat... but GI is basically an easy mock target.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on January 05, 2009, 07:20:48 AM
As I said, it depends on whether that's really the whole text of the review or if the good parts were cut to make a point.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on January 05, 2009, 09:38:59 AM
Quote
As I said, it depends on whether that's really the whole text of the review or if the good parts were cut to make a point.
Aren't 1up's online review short as **** to begin with though? I don't consider them worthy enough to give my time to reading them. That Gears of War review makes my opinion on them even worse.

Yet, surprisingly, Jennifer Tsui reviewed Wii Music quite well. Too bad she doesn't work for 1up anymore.


Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 05, 2009, 12:11:21 PM
Too bad?  Maybe she decided there's better places to work.

And on the Gaers of Raw review, 1up was waiting for something, ANYTHING to champion after Perfect Dark Zero just a year before.  When PD0 is in your library, any new competent game becomes instant gold.  Case dismissed.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on January 05, 2009, 01:36:49 PM
Quote
Too bad?  Maybe she decided there's better places to work.
Then why the hell did she decide to join Sega?  ???
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 05, 2009, 01:38:27 PM
Cuz sonic is kewl

Sega makes games, instead of pretending to know about them.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on January 06, 2009, 01:30:03 AM
Cuz sonic is kewl

Sega pretends to make games, instead of pretending to know about them.

Fixed.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on January 06, 2009, 03:07:55 AM
Cuz sonic is kewl

Sega pretends to publish games, instead of pretending to make or know about them.

Fixed.

Fixed.

I keeeeed. I luv ya Sega. Conduit, Madworld, Alien Syndrome, HoTD3... <3 <3 <3 <3 Sonic Exclusives with swords.... half a <3
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 06, 2009, 03:28:59 AM
Cuz sonic is kewl

Sega pretends to publish games, instead of pretending to make or know about them.

Fixed.

Fixed.

I keeeeed. I luv ya Sega. Conduit, Madworld, Alien Syndrome, HoTD3... <3 <3 <3 <3 Sonic Exclusives with swords.... half a <3


Why must you insult all those games by putting Alien Syndrome in there? :(
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on January 06, 2009, 03:44:07 AM
lern2quote nub.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on January 06, 2009, 07:07:28 AM
ZOMG!!!ZZ
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: TofuFury on January 06, 2009, 08:09:41 AM
I remember reading about the Paper Mario 2 score. I couldn't believe someone would outright say that and think it was an acceptable explanation.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: EasyCure on January 06, 2009, 09:05:40 AM
Cuz sonic is kewl

Sega pretends to publish games, instead of pretending to make or know about them.

Fixed.

I keeeeed. I luv ya Sega. Conduit, Madworld, Alien Syndrome, HoTD3... <3 <3 <3 <3 Sonic Exclusives with swords.... half a <3

Why must you insult all those games by putting Alien Syndrome in there? :(

Fixed.

MEGAFIX
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on January 06, 2009, 10:38:14 AM
I remember reading about the Paper Mario 2 score. I couldn't believe someone would outright say that and think it was an acceptable explanation.
To give GI the benifit of the doubt, the general rule (personally for me anyway) is to respect the person's opinion. However, there is a fine line between "game review" and outright insult. The Paper Mario 2 "review" from GI, and basically their entire GCN disposistion as a whole, was one big fat middle finger from them to the entire Nintendo fanbase. Most people thought Billy (last name sp?), who used to run NWR when it was Planet Gamecube, would improve the relations between the Nintendo fanbase and GI.

Except it never improved. Is it a big deal? Not really. Is it fun to mock GI? Absolutely!

Is it okay to mock SeanBaby (who I found to be the only likeable person on 1up)...? Well, that's a bit of a middle ground. I loved his NES website and his reviews of crappy games, but his douche bag views on the Wii before it was released kind of killed his likeable qualities for me. Like the G4 crew. But that's a whole different ball game.

Maybe we should turn this thread into "The PATHETIC state of game reviewer personalities"? ;D
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on January 06, 2009, 11:12:29 AM
Maybe we should turn this thread into "The PATHETIC state of game reviewer personalities"? ;D

If this turns into a Kairon bashing thread you're all banned.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on January 06, 2009, 11:29:59 AM
I'm safe then, because I won't do it.  ;)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on January 06, 2009, 12:32:54 PM
If this turns into a Kairon bashing thread you're all banned.

Oh come on, do you think anyone would bother bashing you when we got Lindy and co?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 06, 2009, 12:39:02 PM
Maybe we should turn this thread into "The PATHETIC state of game reviewer personalities"? ;D

If this turns into a Kairon bashing thread you're all banned.

Can you imagine Kairon doing all the reviews? HORRIFYING.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on January 06, 2009, 01:00:45 PM
Maybe we should turn this thread into "The PATHETIC state of game reviewer personalities"? ;D

If this turns into a Kairon bashing thread you're all banned.

Can you imagine Kairon doing all the reviews? HORRIFYING.

What's so horrifying about Sprung getting a 10.0?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on January 06, 2009, 05:38:52 PM
UbiSoft published it?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on January 06, 2009, 05:40:51 PM
My dear, dear, reader... I have done you a disservice. I have neglected to review my personal copy of Ener-G Dance squad. *smiles sweetly*
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 06, 2009, 07:45:49 PM
Today is a GLORIOUS day for the gamming media.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: TofuFury on January 06, 2009, 11:08:33 PM
To give GI the benifit of the doubt, the general rule (personally for me anyway) is to respect the person's opinion. However, there is a fine line between "game review" and outright insult. The Paper Mario 2 "review" from GI, and basically their entire GCN disposistion as a whole, was one big fat middle finger from them to the entire Nintendo fanbase.

True, I mean everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, when they say it's a well made game, but give it a 6.5 or whatever they gave because it's Paper Mario? It's idiotic. I totally agree it was a middle finger to Nintendo.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on January 06, 2009, 11:56:54 PM
I find it funny how Paper Mario is now considered one of the N64's best games, but back then it was too kiddy for its own good...

In 10 or 20 years people will hail Wii Music as a brilliant masterpiece. Quote me on this...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Spak-Spang on January 07, 2009, 02:13:28 PM
Fact:  People are afraid of change. 

When Paper Mario came out people were hoping for a more traditional Super Mario RPG experience...and they did not get that.  The graphics scared them away...and the gameplay didn't matter that it advanced the original Mario RPG...all that mattered is that it appeared kiddie.

The same thing happened with Wind Waker and scores for it were lowered in many cases as well.  People hate Nintendo for supposedly making the same sequels all the time but when they do something different and bold they also get in trouble.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on January 07, 2009, 03:36:25 PM
Fact:  People are afraid of change. 

When Paper Mario came out people were hoping for a more traditional Super Mario RPG experience...and they did not get that.  The graphics scared them away...and the gameplay didn't matter that it advanced the original Mario RPG...all that mattered is that it appeared kiddie.

Technically the gameplay of Paper Mario is based off of and a refinement of Super Mario RPG hell the Alpha Dream Mario and Luigi RPGs are the same exact format of Paper Mario. M&L and Super Mario RPG are both isometric, feature variable heights. The main difference between Paper Mario and Super Mario RPG are graphical styles and the type of 2d plain they use. So the evolution of the Mario RPG series isn't as dramatic as you think
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 07, 2009, 03:44:03 PM
I think the main "issue" with Super Paper Mario is that people were for some reason or another expecting a straight-up Mario platformer, even though the game was clearly shown to be an ARPG...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on January 07, 2009, 04:03:52 PM
I think the main "issue" with Super Paper Mario is that people were for some reason or another expecting a straight-up Mario platformer, even though the game was clearly shown to be an ARPG...

But it's the best of both worlds it's a platformer and a action rpg!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: TofuFury on January 07, 2009, 04:54:40 PM
Just to clarify, it wasn't Super Paper Mario that they were talking about. It was Paper Mario 2: The Thousand Year Door. I'd understand if people were upset about Super Paper Mario if they didn't know the Paper Mario series was RPG based. The problem is, this was a game that was open about what it was, had enjoyable gameplay, but was scored low because of what it looked like.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on January 07, 2009, 11:33:56 PM
Fact:  People are afraid of change. 

When Paper Mario came out people were hoping for a more traditional Super Mario RPG experience...and they did not get that.  The graphics scared them away...and the gameplay didn't matter that it advanced the original Mario RPG...all that mattered is that it appeared I am a terrible poaster. .

The same thing happened with Wind Waker and scores for it were lowered in many cases as well.  People hate Nintendo for supposedly making the same sequels all the time but when they do something different and bold they also get in trouble.

Which is exactly what is going on right now with the Wii. People are scared that Nintendo's successful strategy might change gaming forever, one where the core fanbase is NOT the primary business focus.

So afraid that people are trying to fight back, criticize the idea and seeing everything through a negative light.

But rest assured in 30 years people will look at this generation and seeing it as a great one.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 07, 2009, 11:40:57 PM
30 days maybe
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on January 08, 2009, 11:48:47 AM
30 days maybe
NinGurl69 speaks the honest truth yet again.

Just to clarify, it wasn't Super Paper Mario that they were talking about. It was Paper Mario 2: The Thousand Year Door. I'd understand if people were upset about Super Paper Mario if they didn't know the Paper Mario series was RPG based. The problem is, this was a game that was open about what it was, had enjoyable gameplay, but was scored low for looking kiddy.
TRUE FACT:

Kiddy is a noun, not a verb. So therefore calling Paper Mario 2 a "kid" or anything made by Nintendo as such is deemed massively f'ed up.

Super Paper Mario also shits over Tales Of Symphonia as my favorite RPG ever. I'm serious.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 08, 2009, 11:57:33 AM
Super Paper Mario was one of the worst Nintendo experiences I've ever had.  =D

Slow, unexciting platforming, and mountains of dull dialogue between the slow, unexciting platforming -- further reasoning that Nintendo can't be trusted with voice acting.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 08, 2009, 12:03:05 PM
Super Paper Mario was one of the worst Nintendo experiences I've ever had.  =D

Slow, unexciting platforming, and mountains of dull dialogue between the slow, unexciting platforming -- further reasoning that Nintendo can't be trusted with voice acting.

Says the fan of Killer 7.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 08, 2009, 12:10:48 PM
Pressing A to walk   >  Super Paper Mario
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Ian Sane on January 08, 2009, 12:25:34 PM
Quote
I find it funny how Paper Mario is now considered one of the N64's best games, but back then it was too I am a terrible poaster.  for its own good...

In 10 or 20 years people will hail Wii Music as a brilliant masterpiece. Quote me on this...

I recall it being regarded rather fondly at the time.  It gets an 88.5% rating on GameRankings which is very respectable.  Anyone who crapped on it at the time was usually someone who just crapped on the N64 period.  It was Sony fanboys who thought it was for kids.  But Nintendo fans and most reviewers thought it was great.

Wii Music on the other hand got mostly negative reviews and gets crapped on by many Nintendo fans and Wii owners.  I don't think it makes sense to compare it to Paper Mario's reception.  Paper Mario was just another misunderstood masterpiece at a time where anyone who didn't specifically follow Nintendo wrote them off and at that point any Nintendo console game was getting written off.  If anything it was unknown or ignored more than crapped on.  If Wii Music is later regarded as a misunderstood classic that will be very exceptional.  It is much more unpopular than almost any other Nintendo game.  It is not a wallflower game, it's outright infamous.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: TofuFury on January 08, 2009, 12:26:43 PM

TRUE FACT:

I am a terrible poaster.  is a noun, not a verb. So therefore calling Paper Mario 2 a "kid" or anything made by Nintendo as such is deemed massively f'ed up.

Super Paper Mario also ****s over Tales Of Symphonia as my favorite RPG ever. I'm serious.

I'm guessing k**** has a word filter on it. I only brought it up because that's what people always slam Nintendo with. I'm not saying that Super Paper Mario 2 was. I like the way it looks. That's just what came across in the review, and I think it's stupid.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 08, 2009, 12:27:59 PM
Quote
I find it funny how Paper Mario is now considered one of the N64's best games, but back then it was too I am a terrible poaster.  for its own good...

In 10 or 20 years people will hail Wii Music as a brilliant masterpiece. Quote me on this...

I recall it being regarded rather fondly at the time.  It gets an 88.5% rating on GameRankings which is very respectable.  Anyone who crapped on it at the time was usually someone who just crapped on the N64 period.  It was Sony fanboys who thought it was for kids.  But Nintendo fans and most reviewers thought it was great.

Wii Music on the other hand got mostly negative reviews and gets crapped on by many Nintendo fans and Wii owners.  I don't think it makes sense to compare it to Paper Mario's reception.  Paper Mario was just another misunderstood masterpiece at a time where anyone who didn't specifically follow Nintendo wrote them off and at that point any Nintendo console game was getting written off.  If anything it was unknown or ignored more than crapped on.  If Wii Music is later regarded as a misunderstood classic that will be very exceptional.  It is much more unpopular than almost any other Nintendo game.  It is not a wallflower game, it's outright infamous.

Wii Music has mixed reviews Ian. Shows how your perception blinds you to the truth. Some hated it some really liked it.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on January 08, 2009, 02:12:59 PM
Quote
I'm guessing k**** has a word filter on it. I only brought it up because that's what people always slam Nintendo with. I'm not saying that Super Paper Mario 2 was. I like the way it looks. That's just what came across in the review, and I think it's stupid.
Sorry if I came across as slamming you, but using the word in the "Nintendo is teh kiddie" context has always pissed me off.

Guess I'm a terrible poaster now. Hooray!

Quote
Wii Music has mixed reviews Ian. Shows how your perception blinds you to the truth. Some hated it some really liked it.
Did they review it properly though?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 08, 2009, 02:14:28 PM
Quote
I'm guessing k**** has a word filter on it. I only brought it up because that's what people always slam Nintendo with. I'm not saying that Super Paper Mario 2 was. I like the way it looks. That's just what came across in the review, and I think it's stupid.
Sorry if I came across as slamming you, but using the word in the "Nintendo is teh kiddie" context has always pissed me off.

Guess I'm a terrible poaster now. Hooray!

Quote
Wii Music has mixed reviews Ian. Shows how your perception blinds you to the truth. Some hated it some really liked it.
Did they review it properly though?

Lol. I don't think reviewers reviewed GTAIV or MGS4 properly. ;)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on January 08, 2009, 05:46:51 PM
It's quite sad when some random person on the GameFAQs site can make a more honest review then IGN.

But then again, GameFAQs suffers from the same problem. Who's review do you take with a grain of salt, or take seriously? Automatic tens given to MGS4...hmm...

Epic failure or epic humor?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on January 08, 2009, 07:16:40 PM
Maybe it's just the internet?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on January 09, 2009, 06:47:48 AM
Quote
I find it funny how Paper Mario is now considered one of the N64's best games, but back then it was too I am a terrible poaster.  for its own good...

In 10 or 20 years people will hail Wii Music as a brilliant masterpiece. Quote me on this...

I recall it being regarded rather fondly at the time.  It gets an 88.5% rating on GameRankings which is very respectable.  Anyone who crapped on it at the time was usually someone who just crapped on the N64 period.  It was Sony fanboys who thought it was for kids.  But Nintendo fans and most reviewers thought it was great.

Wii Music on the other hand got mostly negative reviews and gets crapped on by many Nintendo fans and Wii owners.  I don't think it makes sense to compare it to Paper Mario's reception.  Paper Mario was just another misunderstood masterpiece at a time where anyone who didn't specifically follow Nintendo wrote them off and at that point any Nintendo console game was getting written off.  If anything it was unknown or ignored more than crapped on.  If Wii Music is later regarded as a misunderstood classic that will be very exceptional.  It is much more unpopular than almost any other Nintendo game.  It is not a wallflower game, it's outright infamous.

Here are how the Wii Music reviews. The bad reviews come mostly from core media outlets who only saw the game as a noise maker with no depth (IGN, Game Informer, Game Daily etc.). The good reviews, however, come from outlets who saw the game for what it was and claimed to have depth for those willing to look for it (1up).

Like Golden said, it has received mixed reviews, but that's to be expected. Wii Music is a niche concept game, and those games either get a lot of love or a lot of hate.

Wii Music actually receives praise from the fanbase. There are a lot of videos on YouTube, and there are communities dedicated to the creation and sharing of videos, and those fans saw depth that not even Nintendo foresaw.

So the reason why I say the game will be fondly remembered in a few years is because it has gained a loyal fanbase that will sing its praises, and chances are that those gamers will become journalists and help propel a good image of Wii Music.

This has happened with cult movies, songs and artists, and of course videogames.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on January 09, 2009, 04:32:11 PM
Quote from: pap64
This has happened with cult movies, songs and artists, and of course videogames.
Except sometimes they gain cult status for being truly awful. Bomberman Act Zero is just one of those games.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Urkel on January 09, 2009, 05:15:13 PM
I know this was mentioned in the Malstrom thread, but... lol Steven Kent. (http://sadsamspalace.blogspot.com/2009/01/admitting-i-was-wrong-to-wii-and-wired.html)

This guy is supposed to be one of the best game journalists out there, right? Why does he sound like your typical 16 year old Gamefaqs poster?

WiiP? Really? Really?

And he kept on calling the Wii that in the comments section. What a manchild.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 09, 2009, 06:44:57 PM
He's tryng to troll-for-hits-troll-for-cash like the more popular gaming outlets around.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Urkel on January 10, 2009, 02:17:50 PM
Oh man, some of Kent's comments at his blog really make him sound clueless. He's claiming that 3rd parties are trying their hardest to succeed on Wii, but it's Yamauchi's fault that their games aren't better.

Quote
Steven Kent said...
And to say that the culture of Nintendo from the past has no effect on the present is entirely naive.

Look, like it or not, Yamauchi hired Imanishi, Mori, Takeda, Miyamoto, and Iwata. You don't think his views influenced them?

YAMAUCHIIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!

Quote
Steven Kent said...
Also, R.J., are yuou suggesting that these companies do not want to make money. Wii is the number one console in the world. What are you saying, that Rockstar, EA, and Ubisoft are too busy making games for the number two and three consoles to concentrate on the big one?

No comment needed.

Quote
Steven Kent said...
Dunno about you, jung, but I think those companies are in business to make money; and if they did not have good games for Wii, I suspect it has something to do with Nintendo's version of third party relations and third party support.

And third parties have done such a good job at making money this generation.

It sounds like all Kent knows about Nintendo is what they did during the 80's, and that he's trying to apply that knowledge to the current generation.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on January 10, 2009, 02:33:34 PM
It's ironic because a good knowledge of 80's era Nintendo, and how much the Wii owes the NES, is exactly the sort of knowledge that should lead one to a greater understanding of Nintendo today.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on January 10, 2009, 03:40:42 PM
Wasn't Steven Kent one of the better journalists last gen? Didn't he used to write for a major website?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on January 10, 2009, 05:26:31 PM
Wasn't Steven Kent one of the better journalists last gen? Didn't he used to write for a major website?

I think he used to write for CNN and was pretty well respected. I'm so shocked.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on January 10, 2009, 06:32:58 PM
On the subject of journalists, didn't one MTV journalist (I may be wrong) wrote a insightful article on how well MGS4 would sell? It made good points.

Too bad it didn't state the obvious: Hideo's rabid fanboys will go to ANY lengths to get what they want. (Bashing Raiden, making death threats and whining like always) Ironic his best games suffered from a horrible gimmick, one wasn't released outside of Japan and another was released on a failed add-on. (in order: Botokai(sp?), Policenauts, and Snatcher)

Reviewers hit rock bottom with MGS4. It only added more fuel to Konami's fire. (we won't see games like Elebits and Dewy more often, sadly enough)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mario on January 10, 2009, 06:40:39 PM
If we don't see more stuff like Elebits and Dewy it's because they absolutely bombed beyond belief. Even on DS the new Elebits could barely scrape a few thousand sales in Japan. Nobody to blame for this but consumers.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on January 10, 2009, 10:22:07 PM
 Here's another crap IGN review YAY this time a truly hardcore game, Eternal Poison (http://ps2.ign.com/articles/939/939462p1.html)

His biggest complaint is you can't go back to prior levels to grind lower level characters HORRAY, in the game the lower level characters are monsters that you capture due to over kills, and the point of the captured monsters are either to 1. have them in your party or 2. sacrifice them to boost your character stats.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on January 11, 2009, 12:42:37 AM
If we don't see more stuff like Elebits and Dewy it's because they absolutely bombed beyond belief. Even on DS the new Elebits could barely scrape a few thousand sales in Japan. Nobody to blame for this but consumers.

"Never blame the customer for bad sales", remember? It's likely that the way the game appeared to potential buyers was very off-putting. Perhaps they should analyze WHY the games failed the way they did and try to avoid it instead of running into the same wall three times?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on January 11, 2009, 12:54:47 AM
Well, for one, Dewy was unforgivingly hard. Three lives and then you had to start a level over completely. And the control wasn't nearly as smooth as I would've liked.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 11, 2009, 01:34:45 AM
When did Elebits bomb? I recall the game selling quite well considering it was early in the Wii's lifecycle which is why we have a sequel on DS.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on January 11, 2009, 11:10:07 AM
When did Elebits bomb? I recall the game selling quite well considering it was early in the Wii's lifecycle which is why we have a sequel on DS.

Golden, the DS Elebits did about 1,500 in Japan on opening week. But Elebits on Wii did well enough in Japan that it recently got re-released as a Konami hits for half price.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on January 11, 2009, 06:09:58 PM
Such is the life of a video game.

You're awesome, but your sales suck. You're MGS4 quality, and your sales are awesome.

Quote
His biggest complaint is you can't go back to prior levels to grind lower level characters HORRAY, in the game the lower level characters are monsters that you capture due to over kills, and the point of the captured monsters are either to 1. have them in your party or 2. sacrifice them to boost your character stats.
Understanding video games must not be a requirement for IGN then.

Right Matt?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on January 12, 2009, 01:09:16 AM
The IGN review of Moon:
Quote
First of all, Moon is very different game from Dementium: The Ward. It's an adventure game with shooting elements intertwined, and while Nintendo fans reading this will of course instantly think of Metroid, I'd put this as more of an adventure game over Metroid Prime: Hunters for DS.

Why the **** does he compare it to MP Hunters? When people think of 3D Metroid they think of Metroid Prime, not Hunters.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Dasmos on January 12, 2009, 04:53:32 AM
The IGN review of Moon:
Quote
First of all, Moon is very different game from Dementium: The Ward. It's an adventure game with shooting elements intertwined, and while Nintendo fans reading this will of course instantly think of Metroid, I'd put this as more of an adventure game over Metroid Prime: Hunters for DS.

Why the **** does he compare it to MP Hunters? When people think of 3D Metroid they think of Metroid Prime, not Hunters.

I thought everyone had forgotten about Hunters, I know I sure tried to.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: vudu on January 13, 2009, 01:38:28 PM
How's this for journalistic integrity? (http://www.crispygamer.com/features/2009-01-06/critic-in-exile-is-it-ok-to-finally-admit-that-i-didnt-really-like-fallout-3-all-that-much.aspx)

Quote
When it came time to cast my vote for Game of the Year a few weeks back, I spent a series of antacid-infused days wrestling with whether or not I had the stuff to go against the grain, to stand up to pitchfork- and fire-wielders, and be true to my heart. Mostly I wondered if I'd forsake the little credibility I have in this business by picking something other than Fallout 3.

So what did I do? Weak fool that I am, I voted for Fallout 3 as GotY, wondering as I did so whether or not I'd be able to look myself in the mirror the next morning.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on January 13, 2009, 01:47:26 PM
Wow, I knew groupthink worked on gamers, but for it to work on us media too... *scared*

Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on January 13, 2009, 02:07:33 PM
Yeah, that's retarded. How exactly do you LOSE credibility by not liking the same thing as everyone else? It makes me wonder if he would compromise his oppinion in other cases too (e.g. "I hate this game but we've given it favourable previews and so did everyone else" which I believe is a major force in skewing reviews even without moneyhats since it definitely feels like games that get considered overhyped also end up overrated with 10s for games that aren't even much of an improvement over their predecessors).
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on January 13, 2009, 02:16:52 PM
If you ever catch me doing ANYTHING like that, please make a thread lambasting me about it.

*How's my writing? Post at NWR!"
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 13, 2009, 02:22:33 PM
The IGN review of Moon:
Quote
First of all, Moon is very different game from Dementium: The Ward. It's an adventure game with shooting elements intertwined, and while Nintendo fans reading this will of course instantly think of Metroid, I'd put this as more of an adventure game over Metroid Prime: Hunters for DS.

Why the **** does he compare it to MP Hunters? When people think of 3D Metroid they think of Metroid Prime, not Hunters.

Maybe because MP Hunters was on DS and not Metroid Prime?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on January 13, 2009, 02:26:29 PM
How's this for journalistic integrity? (http://www.crispygamer.com/features/2009-01-06/critic-in-exile-is-it-ok-to-finally-admit-that-i-didnt-really-like-fallout-3-all-that-much.aspx)

After perusing some of this jerk's other writing, it's clear that journalistic integrity is so alien to him that it may burn his skin on contact.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on January 13, 2009, 04:49:56 PM
I can't decide whether I want to laugh or be horribly depressed at that article.

Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on January 13, 2009, 11:39:28 PM
Maybe because MP Hunters was on DS and not Metroid Prime?

Still doesn't define Metroid. It's the fallacy of equivocation, Nintendo fans think of Metroid and the DS has a game called Metroid therefore they're thinking of that: WRONG, the DS game is not the game people think of when they hear about an FPA because Hunters was pretty much a different genre. The description made people think of the console Metroid Prime games which differ from Hunters on the same attributes he mentions.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 14, 2009, 12:35:56 AM
Maybe because MP Hunters was on DS and not Metroid Prime?

Still doesn't define Metroid. It's the fallacy of equivocation, Nintendo fans think of Metroid and the DS has a game called Metroid therefore they're thinking of that: WRONG, the DS game is not the game people think of when they hear about an FPA because Hunters was pretty much a different genre. The description made people think of the console Metroid Prime games which differ from Hunters on the same attributes he mentions.

Sounds like you are really reaching for something to critisize. Maybe it could have been worded better but you really have to look for something to hate in order to twist that statement your way.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Dasmos on January 14, 2009, 06:43:50 AM
Maybe because MP Hunters was on DS and not Metroid Prime?

Still doesn't define Metroid. It's the fallacy of equivocation, Nintendo fans think of Metroid and the DS has a game called Metroid therefore they're thinking of that: WRONG, the DS game is not the game people think of when they hear about an FPA because Hunters was pretty much a different genre. The description made people think of the console Metroid Prime games which differ from Hunters on the same attributes he mentions.

Sounds like you are really reaching for something to critisize. Maybe it could have been worded better but you really have to look for something to hate in order to twist that statement your way.

I don't think so. KDR's right, the guy's a toss. He's talking about an adventure game with shooting elements, not a shooting game like Hunters. It's not about wording at all, a game that is more about adventure than Hunters are the normal Metroid Prime games, so why not just say that.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Schadenfreude on January 15, 2009, 08:06:44 AM
I'm surprised no one has brought http://au.games.ign.com/articles/944/944826p1.html (http://au.games.ign.com/articles/944/944826p1.html) up yet.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 15, 2009, 09:09:21 AM
That article is divided into 3 page views.  FAIL.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on January 15, 2009, 10:16:50 AM
Heres the short version

1. A Great Cast with a Dud Script
Quote
How many times has a game proclaimed its cinematic virtues – epic story, Hollywood-grade (or at least, prime-time TV quality) voice actors in a staggering production of unparalleled genius? Then, when we sit down with the final game, the story and dialogue plods along limply before fizzling like bad internet fan fiction? There's nothing that can deflate the overall authenticity and quality of a game's setting than a poorly written story, sub-comic book pulp dialogue and bad cliche after bad cliché.

Solution? The writing department in your average developer is usually a tiny fraction the size of design, and many staffers end up wearing multiple hats in writing roles – spending time creating manuals and support documents as much as creating a compelling setting. More focus on the writing process and creating a compelling world can pull a game out of mediocrity and make up for any visual shortcomings. Great examples are Braid, the Baldur's Gate series, the GTA series and just about everything that came out of the minds of Tim Schafer and Ron Gilbert. You don't need A-list celebrities to tell a great story.

Worst Recent Offenders:
Gears of War 2
Prince of Persia
Sonic Unleashed


2. Unreal Engine Overdose
Quote
Once a claim to fame, Epic's middleware engine has become all too common in the industry. When in the right hands – and with tech support from its creators – the engine can make games sing. The engine is capable of a gamut of industry standard rendering effects and presets, allowing developers to take a few essential shortcuts and help get their heads around volumetric fog, high resolution bump mapping and so on. That's a best case scenario. At its worst, the Unreal Engine 3 tends to make games look very generic too, and sometimes at the expense of true artistic direction and skill. If every game looks like Gears of War, then Gears of War stops being special or interesting. Every landscape need not look like an industrial cyberpunk wasteland, tinted brown and pale blue. Games like Damnation, BlackSite: Area 51, Army of Two and Turok are all guilty of this.

Conversely, when the engine is used to fuel true artistic endeavor, the results can be marvelous. Just take a look at Mirror's Edge, Bioshock and Mass Effect. Better still are games that have been developed from what are essentially original engines entirely – Grand Theft Auto IV, Pure and Resistance 2. All three of these games take the industry-standard effects and wrap them around an engine that looks just different enough from Unreal Engine 3 to stand out.

Worst Recent Offenders:
Damnation
Turok
Army of Two
50 Cent: Blood on the Sand


3. Sequelitis
Quote
This is a contentious category because it is dominated by outside forces more often than not, meaning that developers are, to some extent, swayed by the influence of the markets buying their games. That means if a game sells well, it has established a brand name in the market and a sequel is almost assured. Two companies, beyond most others, are most guilty of this – Activision and EA – though they're clearly not the sole parties responsible for the glut of sequels and installments. To be fair, EA has recently taken steps to stem the flow of sequels and foster more original IP which we completely commend. Activision has yet to follow suit to the same extent; its business model still focuses strongly on brand retention and sequels.

Sometimes, an annual installment is a welcome thing – some would argue that Guitar Hero needs its downloadable content and expansion discs to stay fresh. Others might say that the novelty has passed and that more time is needed between versions. You need only look at the ragged, sallow husk of a series that Need for Speed and Tony Hawk have become to see the results of oversaturation in the marketplace. The Sims is another; when The Sims 2: IKEA hit the market, gamers grabbed their buckets and worked through the nausea. Some never survived.

You might be asking yourself where Mario and Sonic are on this list, and it's true – those two, Sonic in particular, have been played out and spun in weird, uncomfortable directions for too long now. See below for a more in-depth look.

Worst Recent Offenders:
Guitar Hero series
Tony Hawk series
Need For Speed series
The Sims / MySims series
Tenchu series
This should be number 1

4. Too Human Syndrome
Quote
Lesson learned: there are few things as needlessly arrogant as announcing a trilogy before the first game is out the door. Too Human, Assassin's Creed, Mass Effect, Gears of War and Half-Life 2 Episodes, we're looking straight at you. Speaking frankly, look – there's nothing wrong with ambition. You want to make an epic, sprawling universe? That's totally fine. But start with getting the first game right and then let the market decide if it actually wants a sequel, let alone a trilogy. If your team is stuck under the thumb of three games in a row, you're looking at potentially between five and ten years of development time – which means you might be spanning two console generations – or more.

Too Human: the trilogy nobody asked for. Incidentally, running on Unreal Engine 3.

Building needless anticipation of an epic series also causes disappointment if eager adopters never get the final chapters. Shenmue, anyone? If the first game doesn't shift the units, then you've effectively shot yourself in the foot by creating a game that never ties up its storylines and leaves gamers disappointed and unsatisfied. Never announce a trilogy before you've proven yourself in the marketplace – or, do so at your own peril and at the expense of credibility and the potential loss of major dollars.

Worst Recent Offenders:
Too Human
Mass Effect
Assassin's Creed


5. Wii Production "Values"
Quote
Something's gone very awry on the Wii. For the console with the greatest number of releases in 2008, it also had the largest number of games that scored 4.0 or lower on ***. That's almost a quarter of the Wii's catalogue – and that's a shocking percentage. One in four games released on Wii in 2008 flat out sucked.

What's going on, Nintendo? What does that Seal of Quality stand for?


Houston, we have a problem.

Rhetoric aside, here's the deal, kids. This is why the Wii is chock full of shovelware: it's smart business. Games that only require three programmers, two artists and no marketing means that the overheads are low. If it costs you less to make, you stand to gain a hell of a lot more. The Wii is the perfect platform for this approach to development, as is Sony's PlayStation 2. The hardware is relatively inexpensive, which means that the adoption rate is high. If the console is in lots of homes, then the chances of someone buying your software is markedly higher. If your game only costs twenty bones on the shelf, next to a game that costs a hundred (in AU dollars), then which game instantly looks more appealing to mum and dad?

Who cares if the game looks sub-N64 and plays like a poor Flash game? If the cost is small enough and the concept has the potential to suck in uninformed parents, then you can count the dollar signs. We really hope that – despite the Wii's massive install base – the current glut of awful Wii titles in the market can't sustain itself. Surely stores will become oversaturated with third rate shovelware and they won't sell. There's only so much shelf space, after all, and Wii owners will only buy so much software.

Worst Recent Offenders:
PlayZone Movie Studios Party (Wii)
Balls of Fury (Wii)
Clever Kids: Pirates (Wii)
Low production values/ small budgets doesn't necessarily mean bad games, there are plenty of games with small budgets that are awesome like for example Tatsunoko vs Capcom.

6. Sonic and Mario Visit the Rainbow Dentist (WTF?)

Quote
There's a wide valley of difference between Super Mario Galaxy and something like Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games. And there's an ocean between Sonic the Hedgehog II or Sonic and Knuckles and Sonic Unleashed. Why is this? As two console titans gradually start to age, the desire from big business is to keep their star characters active and fresh. In this case 'active' means 'frequent appearances', and 'fresh' means 'it's time to take Mario bowling' or 'Sonic now has wings and break-dance moves'.


Seriously, Sonic should kick his ass in like, every event. He's a tubby plumber.

The overuse of two of gaming's biggest icons has, in fact, watered down their appeal to the gamers who made them a success in the first place. By wearing out their welcome over and over again, the inferred quality of these brands is lessened – even if sales remain steady. Ultimately, audiences will move on if the characters lose their appeal. Even expected sequels and updates like Mario Kart Wii need to ultimately do more than just the bare minimum to really maintain credibility long-term. Maybe it's time for other characters to have a moment in the sun? How about a Waluigi and Bigs the Cat double-team? Maybe not.

Worst Recent Offenders:
Sonic Unleashed
Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games
I'm surprised Sonic the Hedgehog 2006 isn't listed as an offender.

7. Motion "Control"
Quote
Motion control can go one of two ways: it either works and is great, or it doesn't and it detracts from the experience. If you can't implement motion control in an accurate, convincing and most importantly relevant way, then don't bother. Both the PS3 and Wii have plenty of titles that don't utilize motion controls properly or only in a tokenistic way, and it's not pretty when controls go horribly wrong. Who can forget the disastrous Sixaxis implementation in Lair? Or who truly prefers motion controlled steering in a racing game like Mario Kart Wii when there's no resistance on the wheel?


Lair died at the feet of the Sixaxis, wriggling, spasming and thrashing.

Accuracy and fun are paramount, and if motion controls are loose or inaccurate, the experience ceases to be fun. Then it simply dissolves into gimmickry, which is just one short stop away from irrelevance – which Nintendo has fought hard to prevent. Nintendo's upcoming MotionPlus peripheral is aimed at addressing just this problem; here's hoping developers learn how to leverage it, or Nintendo ultimately incorporates it into its remotes by default.

Worst Recent Offenders:
Lair
Mario Kart Wii

Mario Kart had bad motion control?!?! That's news to me. Also Lair has a patch where you can play with "traditional controls" and people still think the game is mediocre.

8. Promises, Promises, Promises
Quote
The promise of downloadable content. The promise of patches. The promise of a sequel or series or TV spin-off. The promise that this is the next big thing – or the only big thing. Get onboard the hype train or risk losing out. The gaming industry is full of promises, and most fail to live up to the shiny marketing words.


Best movie game ever? Well... we'll see.

If you call your game 'the best movie game ever made', you damned well better prepare to put up your dukes, 'cause thems fightin' words. This exact sentence was proclaimed by marketing materials for X-Men Origins: Wolverine, and underlined by the game's producers on video. Now, it's great to see that level of ambition and confidence in a game – but come on – pride comes before the fall.

Just ask Dennis Dyack.

On this same point, we'd also like to put on our cynical hats for a moment (or is it already on?) and call out publishers who release a game just to put out a 'premium content' with extra features and gameplay at exactly the same time. This is a really ugly practice given the content really should've been included in the retail release of the game.

Worst Recent Offenders:
Too Human
Gears of War II
X-Men Origins: Wolverine
Promises are not killing gaming.

9. STRONG FEMALE LEAD CHARACTER = EDGY, CLEVER AND DESIRABLE

Quote
Well, sometimes this is the case – Jade from Beyond Good & Evil, the old Lara Croft (from circa 1996 or thereabouts) and Samus Aran from Metroid all spring to mind; even your character from Portal – sometimes stoic, always tough and entertaining. But lately, there's been a resurgence in the 'strong female lead character' category, and we get the feeling that this isn't about sexual equality or women's lib. It's about boobs and ass and forced sexual equality. It's manipulative, in fact. She might be 'one of the boys', but she's still eye-candy and catwalk-perfect.


This is your fault.

Take Mirror's Edge's lead character, Faith; Asian to appeal to the Asian markets, female to soften up the lads and potentially sell to a female audience too. How about Elika from Prince of Persia? That's not clever design - that's clever marketing. There's a big difference. The Final Fantasy series has had its share of strong female characters, like Yuna in X-2 and now XIII. Again, it's a deliberate move (particularly X-2, which aimed at a female market with fashion-based equipment and magic-slotting).

Lara Croft still kicks around, as does Samus. But alongside those two comes Alyx Vance (Half-Life 2), Joanna Dark (Perfect Dark), Rayne (BloodRayne), The Boss (MGS), Zoe and April (Dreamfall: The Longest Journey), Jill, Claire and Ada (Resident Evil series), Elika (Prince of Persia) and the list goes on. It's not clever anymore; it's not special. It's become a bad cliché that is as predictable as it is ultimately degrading. Let's stop pretending that's it's still a unique feature.

Worst Recent Offenders:
Resident Evil 5
Mirror's Edge
Prince of Persia

Dear IGN please restructure your editorial team.

10. CASUAL GAMING

Quote
Our final point is ultimately one that has divided gamers and the gaming market as a whole –and it's as much a positive point as a negative one (again, look out for our next feature, where we'll delve into the positive points of casual gaming). Nintendo has a lot to answer for – a lot of it good, a lot of it not so good. While Nintendo's 'Blue Ocean' strategy has unquestionably broadened the market, bringing in new demographics to the fold, it has been at the expense of genuine game content.

Gone is the time when games were simply challenges and stories and adventures with rules and levels and boundaries. Now, the game has become the toy – a device, a thing with a set function or goal – Brain Training, Wii Fit, Ubisoft's Imagine series – EA's casual games. Equally, it has also become about short-burst games that are quick and easy to develop (relative to traditional games), can be played on your iPhone or DS or downloaded from an online service like WiiWare, PSN or Xbox Live Arcade.



Now developers, hoping to make a quick buck off the back of a particularly prevalent trend, are flooding the market with knock-off products that take proven successes like Dr. Kawashima's Brain Training and Wii Fit or Wii Sports and turn them into something almost indistinguishable from the source material. All kinds of mini-game collections, maths tutors, language teachers, calorie counters, cookbooks, e-books and other 'toy/device/function' games eat up shelf space alongside an ever-shrinking number of traditional game releases. And this applies to every platform out there, from Xbox 360 to PSP.

It's not a pretty picture if you're one of the many long-time players who just don't find these kinds of products appealing – but that's the way the market is going right now. You're going to have to contend with products that aim at housewives and techno-grannies and your kid sister, while you and other 'core' gamers slowly begin to wonder where all the games have gone as you realize that Nintendo's half a dozen first-party releases (in a good year) may not tide you over.

And to you we say: have you ever considered taking up French or mastering the thrills of Sudoku?

Worst Recent Offenders:
Wii Fit
The Ubisoft 'Imagine:' series
Dr. Kawashima's Brain Training
Minigame collections of all kinds

So opening up a new market is killing gaming when the industry as a whole was declining and shrinking 3 - 5 years ago?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on January 15, 2009, 10:26:55 AM
I'm surprised no one has brought http://au.games.ign.com/articles/944/944826p1.html (http://au.games.ign.com/articles/944/944826p1.html) up yet.

See, like most gaming articles, they had some really good points, like the overuse of the Unreal 3 engine, sequelitis and even to a certain extend the overuse of Mario and Sonic. But they had to ruin it with the claim that casual gaming is destroying gaming.

Yes, I agree that game developers should stop making these knock offs in order to cash in on the success of "Brain Age" and "Wii Fit". But to claim that these will "kill" gaming sooner or later is being idiotic.

This has ALWAYS happened, since the beginning of gaming. When Super Mario Bros. exploded in the scene every game developer tried to create their own take on the franchise. When Street Fighter II made arcades fun again everyone was rushing out to make a 2D fighter, which created two of Capcom's rivals; Mortal Kombat and SNK's fighting series. When Sonic the Hedgehog got huge everyone was trying to create a cool furry mascot. When Mario 64 re-invented the platformer everyone followed suit. Did ANY of these kill gaming? Of course not. Why? Because people are smart enough to differentiate between a quality product and a knock off product.

True, that doesn't mean there aren't any dumb consumers out there  that buy these games by the droves. But if you look at the official sales data the ones constantly selling are those that are fun, compelling and polished. People want to get their money's worth and they will go towards the best products.

Finally, casual gaming is STILL a niche part of the fanbase. Yes, there are lots of people buying these games but it will take YEARS before the "casual" domination happens, if it happens at all. If you look at the sales data you will see that both casual AND core games are selling well. One has yet to dethrone the over, so why are people crying over spilt milk that is still in the carton?

Funny enough, this list mentions things that were truly killing gaming, yet they decide to give credit to one that might not destroy gaming.

I am honestly wondering if these writers are truly writing from their hearts or are being spineless cowards and writing towards the fanbase who are the ones complaining about casual gaming.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on January 15, 2009, 10:29:55 AM
IGN wins the reward for digging itself into a deeper hole. Thankfully, this comment on the IGN reply board brightened my day!
Quote from: some smart ass on IGN
ELEVEN:
REVIEWERS hyping mediocre games, singing their praises high and low. Examples: Oblivion, Fallout 3, Halo, and a lot more.

Worst Recent Offenders:
Pretty much EVERY gaming site
Nice!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on January 15, 2009, 10:32:30 AM
He should have mentioned GTA IV, a game IGN hyped as Oscar worthy. So bad it actually got people asking if game reviewers were worth something.

I dare them to mention THAT.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 15, 2009, 11:00:27 AM
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with Mario Kart's motion controls.  It's not like forcing a twin-stick FPS player to switch the stick functions, or write with your non-dominant hand.

Makes me question the basic learning ability of reviewers.  Then again, it probably has nothing to do with learning, and all about attitude.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on January 15, 2009, 11:10:24 AM
I personally don't play with motion controls, but its mainly because I don't have a comfortable gaming setup and can't find the correct way to hold the Wii Wheel.

Funny enough, the ones complaining the most are old MK players who are, literally, forced to learn to drive with new controls.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on January 15, 2009, 11:10:48 AM
How about: Brown. Bloom. Hype. High definition. 70€.

Or maybe in one point: Development costs.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: vudu on January 15, 2009, 11:16:15 AM
Heres the short version

**** man, that's the short version?!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on January 15, 2009, 11:25:33 AM
How about: Brown. Bloom. Hype. High definition. 70€.

Or maybe in one point: Development costs.

YES! I am surprised that IGN didn't mention high gaming costs as something that is killing gaming. I mean, many development houses have closed because they didn't make enough profit. Plus, people are not willing to buy a 60 or 70 dollar game.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on January 15, 2009, 11:29:54 AM
Heres the short version

**** man, that's the short version?!

Beats flipping through 3 pages and looking at crappy pictures they posted that they think will justify the article.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 15, 2009, 11:42:10 AM
I personally don't play with motion controls, but its mainly because I don't have a comfortable gaming setup and can't find the correct way to hold the Wii Wheel.

Funny enough, the ones complaining the most are old MK players who are, literally, forced to learn to drive with new controls.

I'm not sure what you mean by the old MK players being "forced."  Analog sticks are available... did you mean the reviewers who attempt to play the game?

When I was learning the Wheel, I ended up treating my right-thumb/"2 button" like an axis, since I was pinching it all the time.  The biggest hurdle for me was executing hard turns (tilt the wheel >90 degrees) in a way that was quick and easy so that I can translate my thought processes from the older games to the new controls.  Hard turning with an analog stick is natural and typical cuz it's such a short movement.  What the analog might lack is finer, gradual turning (and in reality the sticks easily wear out).  In contrast, the Wheel setup excels at those finer movements out-of-the-box, and I just needed the realization that there's some raw technique involved in performing the hard turns.  After getting accustomed to those aspects of the Wheel, the awesome feel as a Mario Kart game was unparalleled.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 15, 2009, 11:43:34 AM
Heres the short version

**** man, that's the short version?!

Beats flipping through 3 pages and looking at crappy pictures they posted that they think will justify the article.

I appreciate the trouble of giving me just the meat and potatoes without the awful restaurant.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on January 15, 2009, 02:03:23 PM
MK Wii has GREAT motion controls.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on January 15, 2009, 02:36:21 PM
I personally don't play with motion controls, but its mainly because I don't have a comfortable gaming setup and can't find the correct way to hold the Wii Wheel.

Funny enough, the ones complaining the most are old MK players who are, literally, forced to learn to drive with new controls.

I'm not sure what you mean by the old MK players being "forced."  Analog sticks are available... did you mean the reviewers who attempt to play the game?

When I was learning the Wheel, I ended up treating my right-thumb/"2 button" like an axis, since I was pinching it all the time.  The biggest hurdle for me was executing hard turns (tilt the wheel >90 degrees) in a way that was quick and easy so that I can translate my thought processes from the older games to the new controls.  Hard turning with an analog stick is natural and typical cuz it's such a short movement.  What the analog might lack is finer, gradual turning (and in reality the sticks easily wear out).  In contrast, the Wheel setup excels at those finer movements out-of-the-box, and I just needed the realization that there's some raw technique involved in performing the hard turns.  After getting accustomed to those aspects of the Wheel, the awesome feel as a Mario Kart game was unparalleled.

I was talking about those reviewers and gamers attempting to learn the motion controls. I have friends who LOVE MK Wii, yet can't stand playing with the Wii Wheel because they can't get used to it.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 15, 2009, 02:45:28 PM
Yeah, must be an attitude thing.  Having to first unlearn before you really learn?

I laugh when I see 1 or 2 non-wheel players online per worldwide match.  It's a common occurrence, they're in the minority, and they still get creamed by wheel users.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: EasyCure on January 15, 2009, 04:08:25 PM
I'm surprised no one has brought http://au.games.ign.com/articles/944/944826p1.html (http://au.games.ign.com/articles/944/944826p1.html) up yet.

See, like most gaming articles, they had some really good points, like the overuse of the Unreal 3 engine, sequelitis and even to a certain extend the overuse of Mario and Sonic. But they had to ruin it with the claim that casual gaming is destroying gaming.

Yes, I agree that game developers should stop making these knock offs in order to cash in on the success of "Brain Age" and "Wii Fit". But to claim that these will "kill" gaming sooner or later is being idiotic.

This has ALWAYS happened, since the beginning of gaming. When Super Mario Bros. exploded in the scene every game developer tried to create their own take on the franchise. When Street Fighter II made arcades fun again everyone was rushing out to make a 2D fighter, which created two of Capcom's rivals; Mortal Kombat and SNK's fighting series. When Sonic the Hedgehog got huge everyone was trying to create a cool furry mascot. When Mario 64 re-invented the platformer everyone followed suit. Did ANY of these kill gaming? Of course not. Why? Because people are smart enough to differentiate between a quality product and a knock off product.

True, that doesn't mean there aren't any dumb consumers out there  that buy these games by the droves. But if you look at the official sales data the ones constantly selling are those that are fun, compelling and polished. People want to get their money's worth and they will go towards the best products.

Finally, casual gaming is STILL a niche part of the fanbase. Yes, there are lots of people buying these games but it will take YEARS before the "casual" domination happens, if it happens at all. If you look at the sales data you will see that both casual AND core games are selling well. One has yet to dethrone the over, so why are people crying over spilt milk that is still in the carton?

Funny enough, this list mentions things that were truly killing gaming, yet they decide to give credit to one that might not destroy gaming.

I am honestly wondering if these writers are truly writing from their hearts or are being spineless cowards and writing towards the fanbase who are the ones complaining about casual gaming.

Well said Pap, as usual.

While reading this I thought up something that's been popping into my head the more and more i read debates against the supposed "Casual domination" and how it will "kill gaming," and its something I've yet to touch on these boards.

What ever happened to Wii being a fad, anyway? I feel that every single time an article pops up or a debate breaks out that the "casualization" of the industry brought on by Nintendo is like these journalist or core-but-think-they're-hardcore* bloggers/forum posters are simply admitting defeat in a war that doesn't really exist.

From '06 to '07 all I heard was fad this, fad that, bubbles will bursts etc etc. Now it's all about "Nintendo is killing gaming" isn't it? As a Wii owner with no trouble finding and enjoying games for this great lil system, I think this is all pretty funny to be honest. I don't believe that more casual games or non-games are hurting or will ever hurt the industry because casual players and games have ALWAYS been around.

The one thing I'm sick of amidst all of this, though, is all the stupid labels that get thrown around. I really wish people would learn that, like many of us have stated here plenty of times, there are NO HARDCORE GAMES just players, just like there are no real casual games, just players. GTA and Halo aren't hardcore, they've sold millions because of their mainstream appeal. Pac-man is something anyone from 5-95 can enjoy, but only someone 'hardcore' enough will play it till they reach the kill screen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_screen). Video games are just videogames, and i miss the days when hardcore/casual/non-game weren't their own genres.

I know that was a little off topic but i had no where else to post a coherant thought like that at the moment. Carry on.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 15, 2009, 04:54:27 PM
lolololololol

The Wii's a fad.  Just look at Wii GH: Metallica being released later than the non-casual versions.  Wii isn't important, so the game doesn't need to come out as soon.  =D

The bubble didn't burst cuz there was no bubble.  The non-casuals realized this and moved on to the next natural conclusion:  the doom of gaming.  =D

Just do what I do and only use the terms "casual" and "non-casual."  Putting "non-" in front of the word is all the rage, and I'm sure the non-casuals will love noticing the extinction of their beloved "h___core" label.  =D
and the extinction of their way of life
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on January 15, 2009, 06:48:09 PM
I laugh when I see 1 or 2 non-wheel players online per worldwide match.  It's a common occurrence, they're in the minority, and they still get creamed by wheel users.

This makes me happy.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on January 15, 2009, 07:33:43 PM
The Wii Wheel is also as strong as hell too. Nintendo product durability at it's finest!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on January 15, 2009, 07:57:15 PM
You know, the current state of gaming IS dying...but this is a good thing.

For the longest time, gaming has been about EVERYONE having a fun time. Kids, girls, women, families, older gamers, really everyone. Pong was a game everyone was interested in. The "Atari" wowed everyone and families had fun playing at the arcades. In the old days gaming was an activity everyone could enjoy.

But after the 16 bit era gaming started to change. Thanks to Sony's new "mega cool" approach, along with Nintendo and Sega trying to outdo each other gaming was now serious business. It was all about the cool gamers and the groundbreaking games they played. There was no room for fun. It was all about making a statement in gamer lifestyles, design and development. This is where the "games as art" debate was born as game developers tried hard to make a game with beautiful graphics, compelling stories and hardcore gameplay.

But this approach alienated everyone, and realized that gaming was a waste of time that corrupted the young and startled the masses.  While gaming has always been seen as a silly pastime now people feared them. Even when they were unfounded they still moved people against gaming.

So while everyone else was trying to outdo each other like anorexic women at a fashion show Nintendo decided to go back to that time in which gaming was about being with friends and family, before it was serious business. With this approach great graphics, story and mega deep gameplay would have to be sacrificed, but much more was gained.

This is why I believe gaming is dying, but its actually a good thing. While it still has ways to go gaming is now about everyone having fun and leaving a POSITIVE impact in society. Senior citizens who mainly sat down and did nothing are getting up and having fun. Kids are having fun getting fit. People are more aware of their physical and mental being. Most importantly, people are having fun with ageless childhood friends.

So hear me out; yes, people will say that this is a  bad thing. But in 20 to 30 years when people remember this era of gaming they will talk about the social impact it left in gaming and people, and see the negative reactions as ignorant and elitist.

Now for the casual readers...gaming as we know it is proper f*cked. All hail the new overlords!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on January 15, 2009, 08:28:39 PM
But after the 16 bit era gaming started to change. Thanks to Sony's new "mega cool" approach, along with Nintendo and Sega trying to outdo each other gaming was now serious business.

Darn it. Serious business is so much fun.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on January 15, 2009, 09:18:42 PM
Quote
For the longest time, gaming has been about EVERYONE having a fun time. Kids, girls, women, families, older gamers, really everyone. Pong was a game everyone was interested in. The "Atari" wowed everyone and families had fun playing at the arcades. In the old days gaming was an activity everyone could enjoy.
Ah yes, the glory days of the early to late eighties. While arcades weren't high on my lists in the early ninties thanks to the SNES, playing any game was always about having fun.

I still wonder why the hell IGN uses their scoring system for VC games. It's greatly unfair to use a rating system for games that are over fifteen to twenty years old.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on January 16, 2009, 01:29:42 AM
Why is it unfair? The rating system doesn't change the result. What would be stupid is complaining about bad graphics. Gameplay that hasn't held up is a valid complaint IMO.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on January 16, 2009, 01:07:44 PM
I find that to be the only valid aspect. IMO, I just don't like IGN using their way of thinking on old games. To each his/her own, I suppose.

Quote
Darn it. Serious business is so much fun.
It was fun during the SNES/Genesis days. Now it's just annoying as hell.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Spak-Spang on January 16, 2009, 03:57:23 PM
You know, the current state of gaming IS dying...but this is a good thing.

For the longest time, gaming has been about EVERYONE having a fun time. Kids, girls, women, families, older gamers, really everyone. Pong was a game everyone was interested in. The "Atari" wowed everyone and families had fun playing at the arcades. In the old days gaming was an activity everyone could enjoy.

But after the 16 bit era gaming started to change. Thanks to Sony's new "mega cool" approach, along with Nintendo and Sega trying to outdo each other gaming was now serious business. It was all about the cool gamers and the groundbreaking games they played. There was no room for fun. It was all about making a statement in gamer lifestyles, design and development. This is where the "games as art" debate was born as game developers tried hard to make a game with beautiful graphics, compelling stories and hardcore gameplay.

But this approach alienated everyone, and realized that gaming was a waste of time that corrupted the young and startled the masses.  While gaming has always been seen as a silly pastime now people feared them. Even when they were unfounded they still moved people against gaming.

So while everyone else was trying to outdo each other like anorexic women at a fashion show Nintendo decided to go back to that time in which gaming was about being with friends and family, before it was serious business. With this approach great graphics, story and mega deep gameplay would have to be sacrificed, but much more was gained.

This is why I believe gaming is dying, but its actually a good thing. While it still has ways to go gaming is now about everyone having fun and leaving a POSITIVE impact in society. Senior citizens who mainly sat down and did nothing are getting up and having fun. Kids are having fun getting fit. People are more aware of their physical and mental being. Most importantly, people are having fun with ageless childhood friends.

So hear me out; yes, people will say that this is a  bad thing. But in 20 to 30 years when people remember this era of gaming they will talk about the social impact it left in gaming and people, and see the negative reactions as ignorant and elitist.

Now for the casual readers...gaming as we know it is proper f*cked. All hail the new overlords!

This is only partially true.  Why did Sony succeed so well with the Playstation?  Because that cool image and maturing of gaming helped gather the teenage market.  The new direction of mature/hardcore games attracted a broader MALE audience.

People that wanted to play a great feeling sports game in 3D.  People that wanted to play a mature adventure game like Grand Theft Auto, or play a great story with Final Fantasy 7.

Sony, helped to grow the gaming market...the problem is that soon, the target market was tapped as far as it could go...and over saturation for the money of that market made profits harder with the ever increasing sales budgets.

Nintendo branched away, because they saw the "hardcore" gaming market was too hard to compete for the profits.  Does this mean Nintendo couldn't do the job?  No Nintendo didn't want to waste that large of an effort on such a hard market to make a profit with.  They refocused on gaming for EVERYONE, and found a way to make games fun again for everyone. 

Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on January 17, 2009, 12:35:08 AM
A question with growing the teen market is if these were new teens or the same teens that were playing games before.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on January 19, 2009, 08:24:55 AM
So IGN relesed their top overall game of the year as Fallout 3.  I have no problem with this award in general, but when you look at the scores for the other contenders next to Fallout 3 its hard to figure out exactly what's going on over there......

=====================
IGN Ratings for Grand Theft Auto IV (PS3)
Rating   Description   
out of 10   click here for ratings guide
10   Presentation
The story is Oscar quality. The use of the phone as a gaming portal is genius. There's really nothing more that could be asked for from GTA IV.
10   Graphics
The level of detail is astounding. Liberty City feels alive and lived in. While there are some technical issues, the artistic merits push the score to the max. A true marvel.
10   Sound
The dialogue makes the story. Without the excellent writing and the stellar voice acting, the story would fail. And the soundtrack kills -- more than 200 songs and almost all are great choices.
10   Gameplay
The cover and targeting system work great. Blind firing with an RPG is a thing of beauty. Everything works in harmony and not a single one of the missions is bad. The most fun I've had in years.
10   Lasting Appeal
The story will take anywhere from 25-45 hours to complete, depending on your skill level and attention span. There's plenty more to do once you finish the story, such as excellent multiplayer.
10
Masterful   OVERALL
(out of 10 / not an average)

============================

IGN Ratings for Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots (PS3)
Rating   Description   
out of 10   click here for ratings guide
10   Presentation
A story worthy of a feature length film, with action that keeps you engaged from the second you hit the start button 'til the final credits roll.
10   Graphics
Incredibly detailed and visually breathtaking, with amazing camera angles, MGS4 is one of the most beautiful titles ever made.
10   Sound
Haunting melodies, the re-introduction of classic themes via iPod, and perfect line delivery by actors -- this is an aural delight from start to finish.
10   Gameplay
Not only does MGS4 include new gameplay mechanics, it shatters the mold of what's expected from the series. Stealth, action, or balanced play: the choice is yours in how you explore this MGS world.
10   Lasting Appeal
There are dozens of secrets and Easter Eggs, along with tons of ways to approach any combat situation. Plus, when you're done with the single player, MGO will keep you engaged for weeks on end.
10
Masterful   OVERALL
(out of 10 / not an average)   

==========================

IGN Ratings for Fallout 3 (PS3)
Rating   Description   
out of 10   click here for ratings guide
8.5   Presentation
The atmosphere and style are everything you could ask for and more. The PS3 version has shown us substantially more bugs than what you get on PC and 360.
9.0   Graphics
The landscapes are wonderful. The character models and animations could be a lot better.
9.5   Sound
Excellent voice acting and a soundtrack that completely fits the game's mood. The sound effects aren't bad either.
10   Gameplay
A rare combination of excellent combat and deep role-playing.
9.5   Lasting Appeal
A more focused experience than much of what Bethesda has created in the past that begs to be played for hours and hours. This is one game you won't soon forget.
9.4
Outstanding   OVERALL
(out of 10 / not an average)   

=========================

Clearly, according to IGN's own system, not only are GTA and MGS better over all than Fallout 3,  but each individual category supersedes Fallout as well.  Using this system, they have left no room for a logical argument in declaring Fallout 3 the superior game.  For this, I only see two possible explanations, the IGN editors gave into pressure from Konami and Rockstar in their initial reviews, or they are mentally challenged in regards to what numerical values represent.  Better luck next year guys.....

Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on January 19, 2009, 09:08:41 AM
You can't spell ignorant without IGN. =D

Quote from: IGN's narrow view of gameplay in MGS4
10   Gameplay
Not only does MGS4 include new gameplay mechanics, it shatters the mold of what's expected from the series. Stealth, action, or balanced play: the choice is yours in how you explore this MGS world.
The balance went in favor of cutscenes.

Clearly IGN didn't play the same game we did. Cutscenes don't count as gameplay.

Nor do awful weddings.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on January 19, 2009, 09:52:47 AM
You can't spell ignorant without IGN. =D

Quote from: IGN's narrow view of gameplay in MGS4
10   Gameplay
Not only does MGS4 include new gameplay mechanics, it shatters the mold of what's expected from the series. Stealth, action, or balanced play: the choice is yours in how you explore this MGS world.
The balance went in favor of cutscenes.

Clearly IGN didn't play the same game we did. Cutscenes don't count as gameplay.

Nor do awful weddings.

I'd say the same thing about the GTA 4 "Gameplay" score.  Clearly the reviewer was drunk off his a## while playing it and failed to notice the annoyance of starting a mission over, as well as the clunky controls implemented in said mission.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on January 20, 2009, 08:50:17 AM
Quote from: D_Average
I'd say the same thing about the GTA 4 "Gameplay" score.  Clearly the reviewer was drunk off his a## while playing it and failed to notice the annoyance of starting a mission over, as well as the clunky controls implemented in said mission.
Who says you can't review games drunk? ;D
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on January 20, 2009, 10:46:43 AM
Quote from: D_Average
I'd say the same thing about the GTA 4 "Gameplay" score.  Clearly the reviewer was drunk off his a## while playing it and failed to notice the annoyance of starting a mission over, as well as the clunky controls implemented in said mission.
Who says you can't review games drunk? ;D

NWR does, its in their code of conduct somewhere....
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 20, 2009, 10:49:32 AM
Well Game of the Year is picked via various opinions, the GTAIV review was one person's opinion. I really do not think one person's opinion on MGSIV or GTAIV should dictate everyone's opinion of Game of the Year in an organization.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on January 20, 2009, 11:00:38 AM
Well Game of the Year is picked via various opinions, the GTAIV review was one person's opinion. I really do not think one person's opinion on MGSIV or GTAIV should dictate everyone's opinion of Game of the Year in an organization.

I hear you there, but there's a reason sites like IGN have "Editors in Chief".  Garbage like this should be peer reviewed before its served to the herd.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on January 20, 2009, 11:45:39 AM
Quote from: D_Average
I hear you there, but there's a reason sites like IGN have "Editors in Chief".  Garbage like this should be peer reviewed before its served to the herd.
In IGN's case, they are incapable of doing that? If they allowed that Wii Music review to go online, then chances are they don't care about enjoying video games.

They just want to please the publishers who bribe them. ;)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on January 31, 2009, 08:09:53 AM
G4 Xplay says as a con:
Quote
No story mode = no depth

The joke? It's the review for Mario Power Tennis (Wii version).
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on January 31, 2009, 03:12:07 PM
=/
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on January 31, 2009, 03:54:36 PM
G4 Xplay says as a con:
Quote
No story mode = no depth

The joke? It's the review for Mario Power Tennis (Wii version).

I saw part of that review. And now the tumor in my head got bigger :\ .
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on February 02, 2009, 09:30:02 AM
I nearly saw that when I somehow tuned to G4 (why do I even keep that in my channel list?), but I could sense what was coming and ran far, far away.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on February 02, 2009, 02:09:04 PM
Apparently, a Sony rep openly mocked IGN (http://www.mcvuk.com/news/33063/PSP-2-rumours-are-nonsense) in response to a report on PSP 2 rumors, coming just shy of accusing IGN of making up crap for hits.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 02, 2009, 02:11:44 PM
Apparently, a Sony rep openly mocked IGN (http://www.mcvuk.com/news/33063/PSP-2-rumours-are-nonsense) in response to a report on PSP 2 rumors, coming just shy of accusing IGN of making up crap for hits.

I wonder if the PSP2 can destroy the world because of its super fancy chip?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_Neal on February 02, 2009, 03:57:14 PM
Quote from: D_Average
I'd say the same thing about the GTA 4 "Gameplay" score.  Clearly the reviewer was drunk off his a## while playing it and failed to notice the annoyance of starting a mission over, as well as the clunky controls implemented in said mission.
Who says you can't review games drunk? ;D
NWR does, its in their code of conduct somewhere....

Wait...we can't?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on February 02, 2009, 04:25:44 PM
I'll say this once again: respect a person's opinion. However, I felt the need to make my brain tumor grow larger after reading another Paper Mario 2 review. This one is worse then the GI review, seriously. Here's the review (http://"http://www.videogames.co.nz/viewitem.php?id=3021) in question. Yet I must sarcastically view the "review" in question.

Quote from: pointless paragraph #1
While Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door does have nice cartoony graphics and animations, which along with its carefree music and cute sound effects imparts a large dose of the “feel good” factor, the game is just damn annoying, and quite boring.
I just love where this is heading.

Quote from: pointless paragraph #2
I can see what other people love about it. It’s fairly cute and has a nice easy-going vibe, yet it requires some skill and thought to play. It feels classic, as though it’s come straight from someone’s thoughts in 1995. There are heaps of puzzles to be solved by using your characters abilities which are slowly garnered through the story. There are heaps of secret areas with worthwhile rewards. There are heaps of tactical combat options due to a partner/badge/action point system. It’s got no (obvious) bugs.
Hits the good points, but... I don't get the comment I bolded. WTF is that suppose to mean?

Quote from: pointless paragraph #3
At the same time though, it should be noted that it can be quite frustrating, with heaps and heaps and heaps of backtracking. The text can be quite insipid (part of the cutesy factor), and the default text speed is so damn sloooow. The puzzles manage to avoid being difficult enough to require gamefaqs, but simply end up not being that interesting. There are no magical moments which you replay over and over again for the effect they have on you. And then there are the bloody long and uninteresting cutscenes.
Wait, what? Frustrating? Um... the backtracking isn't THAT bad compared to other games of it's type, the text made me laugh more then once since NOA Treehouse did a fantastic job with spicing it up with their own take on the original Japanese script. The frack, the text speed is slow? It's pace is pretty much the same as Mario & Luigi: SSS, and the original Paper Mario.

Quote from: pointless paragraph #4
When I first turned on Paper Mario, I wondered “Why am I playing this”? I decided I had to see what all the hype was about. Much later, as I continued playing it I explained to a friend who was watching that I didn’t really like the game, but I hoped that it become worthwhile to play after a time.
what

Quote from: the kicker paragraph #5
I just got up to the final boss last night. After a long and boring cutscene, I fought the boss for a bit. After that I was treated to another long and boring cutscene. I then fought the boss again, and in the final moments when victory was in my grasp, I made a gamble and lost. The game over screen displayed and I turned off the Gamecube. I’m simply not prepared to play the game any longer, I’m not prepared to go through those two incredibly long and boring, and may I say insipid cutscenes. Instead I’m putting my copy up on trademe. All I can think is that this game is suitable for children and 30 year old fanboys desperate to recapture their childhood.
WHAT?

All I can say to sum up this review is... WHAT THE FRACK?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 02, 2009, 05:09:43 PM
"All I can think is that this game is suitable for children and 30 year old fanboys desperate to recapture their childhood."

Realize, that's the definition of RPG players.

Respect the possession of the opinion, not the person.  If it's a horribly thought-out opinion, it's coming from a horrible person.

=D
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on February 03, 2009, 10:20:22 AM
Quote
Respect the possession of the opinion, not the person.  If it's a horribly thought-out opinion, it's coming from a horrible person.
This makes so much sense it's scary.

Anybody else have any unintentionally hilarious reviews of Nintendo games from Game Rankings?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on February 04, 2009, 04:15:56 PM
BUMP!

Here's another masterpiece regarding Wii Fit and its effectiveness. (http://videogames.yahoo.com/feature/the-truth-about-wii-fit-and-weight-loss/1284826)

Sean Malstrom dissected this article really well. The whole thing is basically trying to discredit its impact in the gaming world by telling people it doesn't work. But instead of doing an insightful research by asking real people about their Wii Fit usage, a second or even third opinion and try to be balanced. Instead, its just trying to make the thing look bad because its selling, and they asked a core website in order to prove a false point.

Wii Fit is as effective as any other diet, treatment, exercise routine and medicine on the planet. Meaning that it works if the person is willing to spend time and money on it. Everything works and nothing is useful, it all depends on the person.

Wii Fit was never meant to replace your routine. The game even recommends that you do other activities in order to stay in shape, as well as watch what you eat. If your weight doesn't drop is asks you why its not lowering and you pick an answer, and it gives you a reason why is that a bad thing. The game motivates you into living a healthy lifestyle, but the one that makes that decision is you.

Here's another example. A friend of mine used to be quite heavy. He started playing DDR for two hours straight every day. By 2006 he was quite fit, completely different from the chubby guy I met back in 2004, and today he still goes to the gym, runs and plays DDR while watching what he eats (though I do wish he would cut on the excessive parties and drinking...). Meanwhile, I tried the DDR thing myself and there was no result. Yes, I played everyday, yes I played for more than an hour and yes it did some good stuff. But then I got bored and stopped playing. I have the same body I had back in 2005 when I started the training.

See, while my friend was really  into it and he got great results, while I got lazy and preferred the laid back lifestyle. I don't blame DDR because I was the one that lacked motivation and pretty much stopped.

The same deal will happen to some with Wii Fit. Some will really be into it and see amazing results from it, while others will grow bored and stop using it. And again, Wii Fit shouldn't be blamed because its a tool, one that tries to motivate you into a healthy lifestyle. But if you decide to be lazy about it the only one to blame is yourself.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on February 04, 2009, 07:49:19 PM
G4's Adam Sessler's mid life crisis rant about the fanboy FPS wars (http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/692992/Sesslers-Soapbox-Killzone-Mailbag.html#commentpost)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on February 07, 2009, 02:44:57 AM
G4 at it again, giving Rygar Wii a 1/5 score (apparently mostly for being old). I played it on the PS2 and it really wasn't any worse than God of War except it didn't have those terribly annoying quicktime event kills or the total asshole of a main character that GoW has. Oh and G4 apparently can't tell Icarus and Aristotle apart (the winged evil guy is called Icarus, damn it!).
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on February 09, 2009, 04:01:31 PM
Here's another smart nugget on a talk show  man sues Nintendo because Nintendo's Wii PLAY STATION contributes to people's obesity and causes injuries (http://newsblaze.com/story/20090209062004zzzz.nb/topstory.html)

Quote
People around the World are sustaining serious injuries due to the lack of proper warnings on their products and Torchia is taking a stance to ensure that people are aware of the potential dangers.

In addition, Torchia feels Nintendo is misrepresenting their Wii games as a replacement for sensible exercise and sports activities. He believes that Nintendo needs to issue a warning that these games are intended for entertainment and not to replace actual physical activity. Through slick advertising campaigns and product placements on popular television shows, children and adults are being brainwashed that Wii games are safe and effective ways to become physically fit.

I think people have enough common sense that videogames don't give a "proper workout". Also do we need even more warnings and safety guidelines which show up BEFORE THE CONSOLE AND GAMES FULLY BOOT UP?!?!

Quote
There is a new phenomenon that is occurring as a result of extensive and widespread usage of the Wii Fit and Wii Balance Board. As more people use the Wii as an exercise tool, they are sustaining injuries in their knees, back and wrists because of overuse and improper warm- up.

It seems that up to ten people a week are being hospitalized with injuries caused by playing Nintendo Wii games, prompting doctors in Britain to issue warnings of the dangers associated with the Wii video game system. "Most patients are admitted after playing tennis or running games which involve sudden movements, resulting in tendon stretching or tearing"says, Dr. Dev Mukerjee of Broomfield Hospital, Essex.

Guy should know that Wii Fit gives people plenty of suggestions to people about stretching and warm ups and also plenty of prompts to take a 5 - 10 minute break. It's up to the end user to follow those suggestions and it's not Nintendo's fault that the end user doesn't follow those suggestions.

I think if Wii causes an obesity outbreak then 360 and PS3 should be the equivalent of death incarnate.
Also Jim Sterling from Destructoid.com says it the best:
Quote
Michael Torchia has decided to press a suit against Nintendo for the injuries that stupid people sustain by not knowing how to waggle an electric plastic stick properly. By pure coincidence, Torchia also hosts a fitness radio show called Shape Up America, and runs specialized programs for obese children. Not that I'd ever imply that he feels threatened by the success of Wii Fit or anything.

"Nintendo is contributing to the epidemic of obesity," claims the jealous concerned Torchia. "Young and old are putting away their gym clothes and shying away from going outdoors to play sports, because the addictive appeal to the Wii game products. Just as the tobacco companies created such a false image of their products and hid the potential dangers, so is Nintendo."

The irony of course is that a lawsuit blaming Nintendo for your being a fat moron who broke his arm pretending to play tennis is just as bad for lazy Americans who don't want to take responsibility for their lives. Of course, Torchia won't admit that he's as bad as Wii Fit if not worse. Both of them prey on the lazy, Torchia's just sad because Nintendo is getting all the fresh meat.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 09, 2009, 04:09:53 PM
That guy is some fitness dork (I mean man) right?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on February 09, 2009, 04:26:39 PM
That guy is some fitness dork (I mean man) right?

He has his own radio show called Shape Up America.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NovaQ on February 09, 2009, 07:46:00 PM
Quote
Young and old are putting away their gym clothes and shying away from going outdoors to play sports, because the addictive appeal to the Wii game products. Just as the tobacco companies created such a false image of their products and hid the potential dangers, so is Nintendo.

The Nintendo Machine is as bad as cigarettes! Next thing you know, Mario will be riding Joe Camel instead of Yoshi.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on February 09, 2009, 07:52:39 PM
Sad. Very, very sad...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on February 09, 2009, 09:00:09 PM
Epic LULZ to a Playstation fan site called PSxextreme.com argues on how EDGE scored Let's Tap an 8/10 and Killzone 2 a 7/10 and that this is a travesty to gaming as a whole (http://www.psxextreme.com/ps3-news/4586.html)

All I have to say is HOW DARE REVIEWERS HAVE DIFFERENT TASTES ON DIFFERENT TYPES OF GAMES. We all know that Killzone 2 is a god's gift to gamers and that let's tap is another crappy shovelware title from the master of shovelware those evil bastards at Sega[/end sarcasm]

But that mindless rant just proves to me how review scores are complete utter bullshit.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on February 09, 2009, 11:37:46 PM
G4 should be banned from reviewing games (http://g4tv.com/xplay/reviews/1916/Tenchu-Shadow-Assassins-Review.html)

Tenchu 4

Pros
    * Ninjas
    * Cool Japanese Score

Cons
    * Unreliable stealth mechanics
    * Poor controls
    * Sub-par graphics

The irony is that in the video they weren't playing it like a stealth game. I also like how they complain that the game has bad AI yet they get caught by that bad AI which forces them to restart the level.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 09, 2009, 11:42:13 PM
I'm surprised Edge gave killzone 2 a 7/10.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on February 10, 2009, 03:08:04 AM
We need a warning "Warning: If you require warnings to be displayed before your videogame you are polluting the human gene pool and would significiantly improve it by committing suicide"

Also that G4 video has such an obnoxious narrator... I love how she complains about the smoke bomb effect when that's pretty much the game's way of saying "you died" except it doesn't make you drop dead (which would make it fairly difficult to continue playing).

As for that psxextreme article...
Quote
But here's what we are saying- publishers have long since understood the power of the review score

Last I checked studies found that there is no correlation between review scores and sales... Sorry to burst your bubble world in which you are important, reviewers but the public just doesn't give a damn.

EDIT: AHAHAHAHA, comments:
Quote
How do you review a video game and NEVER mention the graphics?!!?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 10, 2009, 09:08:02 AM
lulz
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on February 10, 2009, 10:59:09 PM
I think it's really game reviews where we see that gaming journalism has no consistent educated, professional, focused and reliable class of critics unlike other mediums that get covered in the media. We have book reviewers and movie critics and musicologists... but for some reason game media just gives games to just about anyone who volunteers their time... it's almost like game review blogs: devoid of experts.

Wait a sec... that means... me... I... oh no... *hugs his first review* (https://www.nintendoworldreport.com/reviewArt.cfm?artid=15031)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: mac<censored> on February 10, 2009, 11:17:55 PM
Wait a sec... that means... me... I... oh no... *hugs his first review* (https://www.nintendoworldreport.com/reviewArt.cfm?artid=15031)

Now, now, ... reviews at NWR are far more professional than those in fanboy rags like IGN...

... sadly, I'm not kidding -- IGN has far more resources to throw at things, but the degree of drooling fanboy stupidity amongst their staff is absurd.  I think NWR reviews do often sound more professional than those in IGN, even if everything is on a shoestring budget and done by volunteers.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NovaQ on February 11, 2009, 04:36:53 AM
I agree about the reviews here being much more even-handed and professional than a lot of others'.

It seems strange that, as Kairon pointed out, video games are one of the few means of entertainment with so many "uneven" reviews (not that there aren't plenty for movies, books, music, etc.). I wonder why it is that most major game reviewers have such silly biases that often favor a system over good games in general.

Maybe it's because video games are still relatively new compared to the other forms of entertainment, so that there still isn't a disciplined set of standards and qualities that go into a good game versus a bad game (there are film schools in the U.S. and elsewhere where you can get an in-depth education of these qualities, for example).

Or maybe it's simply that video games, while very popular, simply haven't become legitimized in the way that the other forms of entertainment have.

Perhaps it's the added interactivity of video games that keeps this from happening. I mean, have board games reached the point of the other forms of entertainment in terms of even-handed reviews? Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like board games aren't held (at least by the majority of people in the world) in the same category as movies, books, etc.

Then again, it might also be because there are multiple video game players that are expensive but not cross-compatible. (I mean, Paramount doesn't have its own movie format or movie player that only it, and maybe select other studios, exclusively publish their films for).
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on February 11, 2009, 11:00:49 AM
Are there even board game reviews? The only list I've seen is compiled from user votes, not review aggregates.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NovaQ on February 11, 2009, 08:22:57 PM
I actually had no idea until I just did a Google search. I found at least a couple small-scale sites with fully written reviews (not just star ratings or "buy it"/"don't buy it" recommendations). Google has much less to say when it comes to board game review aggregates, however.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 11, 2009, 08:34:23 PM
I actually had no idea until I just did a Google search. I found at least a couple small-scale sites with fully written reviews (not just star ratings or "buy it"/"don't buy it" recommendations). Google has much less to say when it comes to board game review aggregates, however.

Care to share what sites have reviews that you found good for board games?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NovaQ on February 11, 2009, 09:15:56 PM
Aside from the few well-known board games I've played (Clue, Monopoly, Mr. Wiggley's, etc.) and several lesser-known ones that friends have told me about (Catan, Zombies, Munchkin), I don't have much experience with them.

That said, FunandBoardGames.com looks like it provides fairly useful reviews - though I did notice that they haven't updated the site in a while. I also found Game Zombies at angelfire.com/games/zombiereviews, which seems even smaller and more outdated (I can't wait for "next month's review(s)" of Yu-Gi-Oh!). It looks like boardgames.about.com has at least brief and definitely more up-to-date reviews.

It might be interesting to see what kind of comparisons could be found between board and video game reviews. I suppose I'm still stuck on the idea that many gamers have had about video games being an art akin to movies or music. But, especially with the general shifts that the Wii has brought, it seems more and more that video games are, despite their stimulating visuals, sounds, and narratives, only games after all.

Not that that's necessarily a bad thing.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on February 11, 2009, 09:58:57 PM
I believe IGN has a sub site for board game reviews somewhere in that mess of a network.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on February 11, 2009, 10:50:59 PM
Sean Malstrom digs deep in to why the gaming media is pathetic. Long story short; he believes that the gaming media is trying hard to fight current gaming culture in order to pursue their own culture and fails to see readers as consumers.

Here's the link:
http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2009/02/11/email-the-sick-obsession-of-culture-in-the-game-industry/
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on February 11, 2009, 11:43:53 PM
Sean Malstrom digs deep in to why the gaming media is pathetic. Long story short; he believes that the gaming media is trying hard to fight current gaming culture in order to pursue their own culture and fails to see readers as consumers.

Here's the link:
http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2009/02/11/email-the-sick-obsession-of-culture-in-the-game-industry/


I skimmed the article and generally agree with the point you pointed out: that there's a real danger of media these days becoming self-focused. This is something I actually got a hint of at E3 2008, where it seemed like the games media bellowed in collective outrage when Nintendo didn't give them their bottle.

I actually disagree with Malstrom on the destructure of Nintendo culture though. Nintendo culture isn't being destroyed, but it's having a layer peeled back and challenging Nintendo fanatics to take a closer and harder look at the entirety of Nintendo. I believe that a holistic view of Nintendo doesn't yield a cultureless perspective like Malstrom implies it would. Instead, I believe that a new Nintendo culture based around a re-orientation around the tenets of the NES (and thus, the tenets of the Wii) would actually bring people back full circle to a valuable take on gaming.

But back to the gaming media. In fact, I read something similar to Malstrom's concerns in Time the other day, about how newspapers needed to be saved. The author started out with an argument that newspapers needed to be re-focus on subscriptions, not because charging people for the content is good, but because charging people for the content is the best way for newspapers to actually be meaningful to their readers and carry out journalism because it keeps them honest: their true consumer is NOT the advertiser, their true consumer is the reader, and what the reader believes news is.

... you know... Now that I think about it, I never want Nintendo to go down that path. It's ironic, but Nintendo's been able to forge a real relationship and dedication to its consumers not by following some clarion trumpet call for higher culture or better graphics, but by merely trying to put smiles on people's faces. Ironically, Nintendo has remained one of the most meaningful gaming companies present not by flying high, but by staying grounded.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mikintosh on February 11, 2009, 11:45:54 PM
Haha, I like this guy; IGN is a lot more like Entertainment Tonight than they like to admit, and it does seem like Sega's "Nintendon't" tagline still has a lot of resonance with the gaming press. And this quote is exactly what I've been thinking everytime I've opened my issue of EGM over the last five years:

"There is a sick desire in the game industry, including avid gamers and game journalists, for gaming to become ‘artistic’ like movies and music. This sick desire of imitation of the movie industry is truly the desire for culture. The commerce world is seen as flat, stale, soul-less. Reporting games as games would default towards commerce which is the last place where game journalists want to go."

I swear, the number of PS2 games that got glittering recommendations based on their "storytelling" and turned out to be actively unfun to play is uncountable on the number of fingers I have. And I also agree on his disdain for the "gaming culture" and people identifying themselves as "gamers": did America go through this crap in the '80s when everyone had an NES and played Zelda until the late hours of the night? It's just supposed to be a fun timewaster; it's fine to care about it, but people take it too far (see the transformation of the comic book industry, which used to be populated entirely with bright-eyed youngsters paying a quarter to read Action Comics). But I don't go along with his condemnation of the "Nintendo Culture", mainly since I love the company and buy crap merchandise based on their products all the time. :)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NovaQ on February 12, 2009, 05:04:04 AM
So basically, Malstrom's saying that (adult) life is mostly focused on commerce and law, but because most people think those are boring (or don't want to admit that they are what much of our day-to-day life is about), they make up and maintain culture. Each culture of a particular thing (art, movies, video games) is ultimately a way for those not interested in commerce and law to pat themselves on the back for wasting their time on non-commerce and non-law activities.

Further, he says that Nintendo's strategy has always (especially with the DS and Wii) been focused on commerce. It's based on expanding the number of customers they have, not adding noteworthy items (games) to gaming culture. Nintendo's strategy lately has been working very well, and the upswell of new customers - ones who aren't steeped in (or likely very familiar with) gaming culture - inadvertently threaten those people who see themselves as members of gaming culture.

So, that's why gaming journalism sucks? A group with decades-old ideas on gaming and its own gaming media feel threatened by encroaching new (or at least different) ideas about gaming? I suppose that makes sense.



(Just a quick question about something earlier in Malstrom's theory: why do so many of us think commerce and law are boring, and why do so many of us seek to avoid them? Are we really wasting our time and turning our backs on what life is about, as Malstrom seems to believe? Is it possible that emphases on commerce and law are, while more practical in our world, deep down just as contrived or forced as emphases on movie products, book products, video game products, etc.? Or is my head just too far up my ass?)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on February 12, 2009, 07:50:34 AM
I guess you'd need a psychologist to figure out the exact answer for your quick question though Nietzsche's master-slave morality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master-slave_morality) seems to be a related subject. Not that I'd really trust a philosopher to analyze the human psyche...

(oh the irony of the source of the desire for art in gaming being described and villified in Beyond Good and Evil...)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on February 12, 2009, 11:57:34 AM
I found yet another good article about how pathetic the gaming media, especially reviews, is. It tells you the signs that a review isn't completely honest with its readers.

Here's the link:
http://thatgamingsite.com/articlenav-115-page-1.html

I would have added this, though:
- The review shows a clear bias from the reviewer:
Videogame journalists are first and foremost game fans. Like you and me, they love certain games, franchises, genres and companies. So there's the chance that a reviewer will either favor a game greatly or completely dismiss it because of the reviewer's feelings towards the product. This is somewhat easy to tell, though. If you read a review and its a glowing one, failing to mention the game's obvious flaws then there's the chance that the review is biased towards it and wants it to be noticed. On the other hand, if the review rags on the game for too long, especially over trivial and small issues then clearly the reviewer has an issue. Matt Cassamina's review of Wii Music is an example of this because prior to it he confessed that he wanted to get the game so he could bash it.

If you sense a bit of bias take what the review says with a big grain of salt.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on March 05, 2009, 12:34:25 PM
EDIT: Vudu's post contains the correct link. I had the wrong formatting. Oops.  8)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: vudu on March 05, 2009, 12:35:42 PM
There's a problem with your link.  Here (http://wii.ign.com/articles/958/958855p1.html) is the correct URL.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on March 06, 2009, 10:01:49 PM
There's a problem with your link.  Here (http://wii.ign.com/articles/958/958855p1.html) is the correct URL.

Whats wrong with this review?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 07, 2009, 11:39:57 AM
There's a problem with your link.  Here (http://wii.ign.com/articles/958/958855p1.html) is the correct URL.

Whats wrong with this review?

If you read the "Black Knight" thread on the Nintendo Console forum you will see that the game is far more polished and enjoyable than "Secret Rings", and that title was already good to begin with.

The problem with Matt's review is that he keeps whining and bitching about the game forcing you to to stop and battle enemies when impressions have said that you can either be light and speedy and run through the stages ignoring the enemies and villagers to be battle heavy and destroy everything in your path.

Finally, the score he gave the game was too low. To give you an idea, Sonic Unleashed, which received maligned reviews from fans due to the Werehog, got better reviews and had far more issues and really did stop Sonic in his tracks.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Luigi Dude on March 07, 2009, 01:13:10 PM


If you read the "Black Knight" thread on the Nintendo Console forum you will see that the game is far more polished and enjoyable than "Secret Rings", and that title was already good to begin with.


While I wouldn't exactly call Secret Rings good, I wouldn't call it bad either.  The fact that like you said, Black Knight has better controls and is considered more polished makes someone like me who was in the middle about Secret Rings suddenly become more interested.  Since if Secret Rings had better controls and more polish I would have considered that game good then.

So yeah, in the end Matt's review is nothing more then a stupid rant about how he didn't like certain parts of the game so the entire game sucks.  Which is a terrible way to review games since it does nothing to inform the average reader.  And not to mention he didn't bother to even compare Black Knight to Secret Rings which is the only thing someone like me wanted to know since Black Knight is the SEQUEL to Secret Rings.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 07, 2009, 01:42:05 PM
I know that "Secret Rings" wasn't perfect. But considering that Sonic 06 was absolutely terrible "Secret Rings" has a promising premise. All it needed was more polish and it seems "Black Knight" delivers on that while perfecting its own ideas.

Not to mention that I am suspicious regarding Matt's reviews. After he confessed that the main reason he wanted to review Wii Music was to bash it in order to vent anger towards Nintendo I am concerned that he wants his reviews to be the best in the industry.

Classic Sonic fans don't want to accept "Black Knight" as part of the series. They just want Sonic to play like Sonic. So I wouldn't be surprised if Matt wanted to cater to that sector and tell them what they want to hear; that Black Knight sucks. If he had said otherwise it would have meant that fans whining over Sonic could be wrong over this new entry.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on March 07, 2009, 02:38:37 PM
I always had a love, hate thing with IGN reviews nowadays I don't care much for them anymore. I always think that the best reviewer is yourself since it's you who ultimately will want what will interest you not someone who will make a decision for you. In my opinion reviews should just be used as a guideline and to potentially address  any concerns you have about the game however the sad thing is there are a lot of  reviews that just rambles on and on how bad a game "sucks" just because they hate it.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 07, 2009, 02:58:20 PM
Besides Matt and Mark I don't really trust the other reviewers on IGN, too many seem to inflate their scores for the next big thing that comes out (GTAIV comes to mind and it didn't even win GOTY!).
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 07, 2009, 03:12:26 PM
Here's how you should judge reviews...
1. If a reviewer praises a game to the point where it sounds "perfect", then take it with a grain of salt and search for other opinions.

2. If a reviewer spends most of his review talking about flaws and mentions personal issues towards the company, franchise, character or whatever then look for another review.

Both examples show potential bias towards the product and chances are you are not getting the truth behind the product.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on March 07, 2009, 03:51:37 PM
What about:
3. If said reviewer posts messages on his/her blog and he sounds like a selfish SOB, don't take their reviews seriously.

This is what Matt is on his way to becoming. He's well on his way to becoming the next CEO of Epic Games.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on March 09, 2009, 08:51:05 AM
Here's another bad biased article (http://nobsgamers.com/news/nintendo-no-longer-the-gamers-best-friend/)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on March 09, 2009, 10:07:59 AM
Quote from: Some Random Idiot
“Maybe next time you set out to do an opinion piece you wont state your bias opinion as fact”

Mlol-wtf do you think an editorial is?
So NoBSGamers attracts people full of BS?

WEBSITE OF THE YEAR!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on March 17, 2009, 12:34:06 PM
http://kotaku.com/5172152/mainstream-media-animal-crossing-mayor-could-be-a-sexual-predator  'Nuff said
 More in-depth article (http://www.kmiz.com/news/story.php?id=13725)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on March 17, 2009, 12:58:08 PM
Vote to legalize euthanasia for blatant idiots. All in favour?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 17, 2009, 03:40:18 PM
Vote to legalize euthanasia for blatant idiots. All in favour?

AYE.

I nominate half the gaming media as candidates!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BeautifulShy on March 17, 2009, 05:46:09 PM
Vote to legalize euthanasia for blatant idiots. All in favour?

AYE.

I nominate half the gaming media as candidates!
Seconded.Motion passed.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Stogi on March 18, 2009, 04:33:24 AM
That's ridiculous.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NovaQ on March 18, 2009, 05:56:31 PM
Nintendo is being accused of allowing something that Friend Codes were specifically put in place to prevent. My, what ironing!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 18, 2009, 06:14:05 PM
Nintendo is being accused of allowing something that Friend Codes were specifically put in place to prevent. My, what ironing!

That's what makes this situation so frustrating and funny at the same time. Nintendo has put a lot of effort into online safety. You are not forced to use Wii Speak and you can turn yours off if you don't want people to hear your voice.

You know what's ironic? For years we have criticized Nintendo for its friend code system. Now, its the thing that truly prevents nut jobs like this guy for claiming "OMG this is for Pedos!" and getting away with it.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on March 18, 2009, 11:45:19 PM
And yet they do it anyway. As I said, maybe euthanasia is the only way to deal with this.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mop it up on March 18, 2009, 11:48:19 PM
Quote
"I cannot come up with any legitimate reason that an adult would be playing [Animal Crossing: City Folk]" says Andy Anderson, Mid-Missouri Internet Crimes Task Force.
Okay, why do I feel like this is an insult? Could it be because I own this game, or is there more to it then that? What type of game should an adult play, one with blood and gore and killing and sex? Or are all videogames nothing but children's toys that should be put away once a person grows up?

Way to go Andy Anderson, the guy so idiotic they named you twice. You've not only made clear your vast ignorance of videogames, but have effectively insulted any adult who plays them, which if I recall correctly is at least 50% of players. Congratulations.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 19, 2009, 01:11:31 AM
Quote
"I cannot come up with any legitimate reason that an adult would be playing [Animal Crossing: City Folk]" says Andy Anderson, Mid-Missouri Internet Crimes Task Force.
Okay, why do I feel like this is an insult? Could it be because I own this game, or is there more to it then that? What type of game should an adult play, one with blood and gore and killing and sex? Or are all videogames nothing but children's toys that should be put away once a person grows up?

Way to go Andy Anderson, the guy so idiotic they named you twice. You've not only made clear your vast ignorance of videogames, but have effectively insulted any adult who plays them, which if I recall correctly is at least 50% of players. Congratulations.

I have to give him credit though, at least he wasn't sexist by saying something like "adult male" ;) .
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mop it up on March 19, 2009, 03:41:29 PM
True, although this further exposes his ignorance. If he had seen the advertisements for Animal Crossing, which depict adult females enjoying the game, he would have known that they are a part of the game's target audience.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on March 24, 2009, 02:44:47 PM
<sarcasm>    A pinnacle of videogame journalism (http://www.edge-online.com/blogs/the-rise-idiots) </sarcasm>
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 24, 2009, 03:20:59 PM
<sarcasm>    A pinnacle of videogame journalism (http://www.edge-online.com/blogs/the-rise-idiots) </sarcasm>

What the HELL is he talking about? I have no idea what the article is about.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on March 24, 2009, 04:09:31 PM
It's a blog. Random, pointless thoughts is what a blog is for.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: mac<censored> on March 24, 2009, 04:28:36 PM
<sarcasm>    A pinnacle of videogame journalism (http://www.edge-online.com/blogs/the-rise-idiots) </sarcasm>

What the HELL is he talking about? I have no idea what the article is about.

To be fair though, it's a blag.  Blags are supposed to be illogical, poorly-written rants, with little connection to anything but how the author felt after his latest bowel movement.

A blag written by a game journalist though... shudder...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Djunknown on March 29, 2009, 09:57:45 PM
A bit meta... (http://uk.ps2.ign.com/articles/967/967360p1.html)

Some choice out of context quotes:

Quote
This year's rant, "Burned by Friendly Fire: Game Critics Rant," turned the mic over to game journalists instead of developers. Heather Chaplin, author of Smartbomb offered tough words for the gaming industry. "I've been covering the games industry for eight years, mainly for mainstream outlets, and I often find myself acting as a translator," Chaplin said.

Quote
"It's not that the medium is in its adolescence, it's that you're a bunch of ****ing adolescents," she said. "It's even worse because you're technically supposed to be adults." Chaplin traced the paucity of more mature content in games to four basic ideas that frighten men the most: responsibility, introspection, intimacy, and intellectual discovery.

Quote
N'Gai Croal, a newly-minted game consultant and former Newsweek editor, lamented the gaming press for validating distinctions between "hardcore" and "casual."...He encouraged everyone in the audience to Google the phrase "taxonomy of games" to begin unpacking the great array of different play styles and experiences. Croal hoped that one day we'll be able to talk about "tourist" players versus "skill" players or "perfectionists" versus "completionists."

EDIT: Now with 100 percent more quotes!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on March 29, 2009, 11:07:07 PM
As someone who regularly engages in the use of the "hardcore" terminology, I am also to blame... T_T

The terminology is so powerful though! It's so hard not to be caught up in its romance, its call-to-arms, its immediacy, and its ability to define a picture of a type of gamer, true or not.

... Now I know how those demagogues feel when they talk about the good 'ol halcyon days...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 30, 2009, 12:02:39 AM
You know, I would have bashed Games Radar if I spoke at that keynote.

That site is a great example of adolescent behavior. Its understandable that they want to be humorous, but when they do things like articles on missing genitalia something is wrong...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on March 30, 2009, 11:39:51 AM
http://www.xboxist.com/xbox-360/news/is-madworld-selling-poorly-on-the-wii-010119.php

<facepalm>
"The good news is that Platinum Games still has a potential hit on their hands. All they need to do is port the title over to the Xbox 360 and PS3 (it can even be sold as a digital download) and they will easily find thousands of hardcore gamers willing to part with their money."
</facepalm>

http://www.gamezine.co.uk/features/game-types/fighting-games/comment-why-madworld-bombing-at-retail--$1284341.htm

Dear gamezine UK, the only reason why Madworld is doing poorly in Europe is because PG/SEGA Europe screwed up the PAL conversion. Mature games do sell on Wii, take for instance House of the Dead:Overkill, it did fairly poorly in North America, but it's selling well in Europe which also includes the UK.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 30, 2009, 12:13:34 PM
MadWorld without motion controls turn the game into button-activated cutscenes.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on March 30, 2009, 12:43:53 PM
MadWorld without motion controls turn the game into button-activated cutscenes.
Isn't this  what the majority of PS3 and XBOX360 fans want though?  ;)

Quote
<facepalm>
"The good news is that Platinum Games still has a potential hit on their hands. All they need to do is port the title over to the Xbox 360 and PS3 (it can even be sold as a digital download) and they will easily find thousands of hardcore gamers willing to part with their money."
</facepalm>
In other words, Xbox Fanboy Wankery wants Platnium to rebuild the Madworld engine for the PS3/360 and gut the game's indentity in order to show "NAH NAH HARDCOREZ GAMEZ DON'T SELL ON WII!!11".

Hmm...
Quote from: 'What those morons are really saying is'
"The good news is that Platinum Games still has a potential hit on their hands. All they need to do is completely gut the fun out of a Wii built game and make a control scheme more complicated and they will easily find thousands of hardcore gamers willing to part with their money. Problem is we won't buy it anyway, we just want to talk **** about the Wii because we can. At least we have Final Fantasy XIII!"
Fixed.

 
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: vudu on March 30, 2009, 12:45:26 PM
Is anyone here honestly shocked?  Would you expect anything different from a site called xboxist.com?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 30, 2009, 01:33:14 PM
Honestly, no.

The last time I was shocked by the gaming 'media' was when I saw GERSTMANN Wii Bowl from a couch.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 30, 2009, 01:45:18 PM
Also, Wii matoor game sales are low because they're bought by informed, responsible citizens.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: blackfootsteps on March 30, 2009, 03:36:41 PM
Haha the one comment on the Xboxist Madworld article sums it up:

Quote
Comments
Are we begging for Madworld now?

Posted by: Obo | March 30, 2009 02:12 PM
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on March 31, 2009, 03:45:05 AM
The reason Madworld is failing at retail is because customers do not like artsy games. The game wouldn't sell on any system.

Malstrom''s theory was that the game has no purpose, BTW. The Conduit has the purpose of giving Wii owners a good entry in the FPS genre but what's the point of Madworld? Random violence?

MadWorld without motion controls turn the game into button-activated cutscenes.

Hey, God of War is getting a fourth game already.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 31, 2009, 10:07:20 AM
While I still think its too early to call the game a flop I agree that anyone who believed this would be a million seller in a month is being foolish and naive.

Like its been mentioned, this title is a game that's being aimed at a niche core audience, and that only makes up a small part of the Wii audience. Its a brand new IP with no real past or present. These games take a while to get noticed in the market. Then there's the fact that its an M-rated title with weird graphics. While the violence might be enticing the whole thing might only appeal to a few (I showed the game to my nephew who loves these types of games and the first thing he said was "Its in black and white?").

Even if this was made for the 360 and PS3 it would still sell slowly. In fact, I think it would be harder for it to get recognized thanks to all the better, more popular mature titles on the system.

Many hyped, M rated games didn't sell as well as expected on the 360 and PS3. For example, in the unofficial sales charts "Afro Samurai", a game that was hyped, received a lot of ads on TV and is based on an anime franchise, debuted on the top ten one week. Then dropped badly by the second week. And note that this was a bloody, mature title that was designed with the 360 and PS3 in mind.

So while I still think that Madworld can go on to become a sleeper hit I also think its silly to believe that the title would become a million seller right off the bat.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Nick DiMola on March 31, 2009, 10:30:58 AM
I can only speak for myself and a small group of friends, but I didn't buy MadWorld once I heard how short it was. 4 hours is just too short for me to invest $50, sorry Platinum. After renting, I enjoyed the game, but I was definitely glad I didn't spend full price on it.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on March 31, 2009, 10:33:29 AM
Honestly, no.

The last time I was shocked by the gaming 'media' was when I saw GERSTMANN Wii Bowl from a couch.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/CONFUZZLED_MUNKIE/Memes/4tqzcp3.gif)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 31, 2009, 10:35:56 AM
*In a Cleveland Brown voice

Now that's just nasty...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on March 31, 2009, 07:53:41 PM
I'm surprised no one has ever mentioned any Game FAQS reviews at all. Then again, it's non-professional, but some reviews are always good for a laugh.

Or a facepalm. (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/review/R60212.html)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on April 01, 2009, 04:34:19 AM
GameFAQs is GameFAQs. That's pretty much all that needs to be said.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on April 01, 2009, 07:55:00 AM
True, but for face value and review honesty, GameFAQs is about 10% more honest in their reviews (from fans, no less) then the professional media is.

It just houses alot of Final Fantasy fanboys and they always run that stupid  character content poll.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on April 22, 2009, 03:50:21 PM
Ok, this one is getting pretty interesting.  Here's the Joystiq review for ExciteBots (http://www.joystiq.com/2009/04/22/joystiq-review-excitebots-trick-racing/) that just went up.  The reviewer was totally busted for having no idea there was an online component to the game.  He's sounds so depressed in the video too, probably played it 10-15 mins tops.

Here's the comments section where he's outed:
Dopple Boppler
Have you played wifi for this David? Because from the other reviews I've read that's really where the game sounds like it shines.

David Hinkle
Nope, no online, sadly. I would've mentioned it in the review. :)

Cody
Wait David,
You're stating there's no online in the game? Or you didn't have access to go online from whereever you were reviewing the game at? Because both seem questionable (teh inturnetz are everywhere!).
We all know the former is not true, as it is very clear this game has an online component, so if the latter is the case, why not state that in the review instead of the complete lack of acknowledgment of the the online aspect of the game?

Moptimus Slime (Play me out, Keyboard Cat)
he meant he would have mentioned his online experience in the review IF HE HAD ONE

Cody
....right Moptimus, and what I'm trying to discover is WHY he didn't have one.

D_Average
His statement only makes sense if he thought there was no online. If he knew there was online and didn't try it he would have said:

"Nope, didn't try online, too lazy. I would've mentioned it in the review. :)"

Fernando Rocker
The answer why he didn't plya online is very easy... he didn't play enough to be able to play online.

Fernando Rocker
David... you need to complete School Cup to unlock the WiFi mode... I bet that's the reason why you didn't play online...

So... you basically are reviewing a game without having played a lot.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on April 22, 2009, 03:52:55 PM
Oops...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 22, 2009, 04:28:59 PM
Someone should make a Wall-of-Shame site, complete with pictures of these champions and snapshot evidence of their feats of journalistic rectal inversion.

The site would also include ads, so that the site operator would make money off the forced multiple page hits, like what GameDaily does.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on April 22, 2009, 04:57:38 PM
Someone should make a Wall-of-Shame site, complete with pictures of these champions and snapshot evidence of their feats of journalistic rectal inversion.

The site would also include ads, so that the site operator would make money off the forced multiple page hits, like what GameDaily does.

There's already one. Its  called Go Nintendo...

OH SNAP, THAT'S RIGHT I WENT THERE!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mop it up on April 22, 2009, 06:08:44 PM
Ok, this one is getting pretty interesting.  Here's the Joystiq review for ExciteBots (http://www.joystiq.com/2009/04/22/joystiq-review-excitebots-trick-racing/) that just went up.
I could probably write a better review than that, and I haven't even played the game.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on April 22, 2009, 09:30:11 PM
Oh my god. This just... this just... the world is a horrible horrible place.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Nick DiMola on April 23, 2009, 03:44:42 AM
You know what's even funnier about that review? It probably went through an editor who didn't realize it either. Awesome.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on April 23, 2009, 03:49:51 AM
http://uk.videogames.games.yahoo.com/blog/article/2997/ (http://uk.videogames.games.yahoo.com/blog/article/2997/)

This might be the worst game article I've ever read.  Particularly the use of Deca Sports 2 to gauge the sales of a sequel to a game that Deca Sports is a shameless ripoff of.  I mean use a normal substitution.

"Oh no, Saints Row II sold less than GTA: San Andreas!  Does this spell doom for GTA IV?"

Or

"Oh no Work Time Fun completely bombed!  People weary of Wario Ware?"

I mean articles like this totally lend credence to the idea that major games media have it in for Nintendo.  No wonder Nintendo fans believe that there's a big conspiracy around.  Because it's the only logical explanation left.  Why else hold panel meetings with Michael Pachter every month or week to "discuss" how wrong he was about NPD predictions and how "Sony is going to come back."  No wonder Wii fans and owners don't trust reviewers and games journalists.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on April 23, 2009, 06:29:55 AM
Ok, this one is getting pretty interesting.  Here's the Joystiq review for ExciteBots (http://www.joystiq.com/2009/04/22/joystiq-review-excitebots-trick-racing/) that just went up.
I could probably write a better review than that, and I haven't even played the game.

And he probably shouldn't be doing video reviews either.  It almost sounds like he was watching tv as he described the game, completely distracted.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: EasyCure on April 23, 2009, 08:14:30 AM
That ExciteBot review incident really pisses me off, having played the game all night last night and enjoying it.. he didn't even finish the fucking school cup to access the online?

For those of you that havent played it:
That means he played LESS THAN 5 RACES and reviewed the game.

You start the game, you set up your profile (which you use later to go online) with an icon and everything, then its a quick tuturiol. That alone takes no more than 5 mins. After the stupid tutoriol you unlock the "School Cup" which is basically an extension of the tuturial. Theres 5 levels and each introduces you to a new mechanic of the game, during a race. Such as "Turn your wii remote in sync with the motions of your Bot on screen to launch off the Red Spin Bar. Successful launches give you more Stars plus a Turbo Boost!" and then you go on to race, while trying out said game mechanic. You do this 4 more times with different mechanics thrown at you and you've just completed the "School Cup" which unlocks WFC Play as well as VS Excite modes. Anyone familiar with ExciteTrucks knows that the levels are timed as well, usually no more than 3 mins per race, but the race can usually be won in 2.

If the reviewer didn't even unlock the WFC option, ie didnt complete the School Cup, she/he didnt even put 15mins into the game....
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on April 23, 2009, 08:49:11 AM
At this point, I think its fair to say, "David Hinkle sucks at video games."
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: EasyCure on April 23, 2009, 09:18:31 AM
At this point, I think its fair to say, "David Hinkle sucks at video games."

Which leads me to believe that the reason you have to complete the School Cup in order to unlock the WFC mode is to keep n00bs from competing with the l337
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Stogi on April 23, 2009, 11:16:22 AM
http://uk.videogames.games.yahoo.com/blog/article/2997/ (http://uk.videogames.games.yahoo.com/blog/article/2997/)

This might be the worst game article I've ever read.  Particularly the use of Deca Sports 2 to gauge the sales of a sequel to a game that Deca Sports is a shameless ripoff of.  I mean use a normal substitution.

"Oh no, Saints Row II sold less than GTA: San Andreas!  Does this spell doom for GTA IV?"

Or

"Oh no Work Time Fun completely bombed!  People weary of Wario Ware?"

I mean articles like this totally lend credence to the idea that major games media have it in for Nintendo.  No wonder Nintendo fans believe that there's a big conspiracy around.  Because it's the only logical explanation left.  Why else hold panel meetings with Michael Pachter every month or week to "discuss" how wrong he was about NPD predictions and how "Sony is going to come back."  No wonder Wii fans and owners don't trust reviewers and games journalists.

Holy shiznit! That was the most biased article I've seen in a long long long time.

That ExciteBot review incident really pisses me off, having played the game all night last night and enjoying it.. he didn't even finish the fucking school cup to access the online?

For those of you that havent played it:
That means he played LESS THAN 5 RACES and reviewed the game.

You start the game, you set up your profile (which you use later to go online) with an icon and everything, then its a quick tuturiol. That alone takes no more than 5 mins. After the stupid tutoriol you unlock the "School Cup" which is basically an extension of the tuturial. Theres 5 levels and each introduces you to a new mechanic of the game, during a race. Such as "Turn your wii remote in sync with the motions of your Bot on screen to launch off the Red Spin Bar. Successful launches give you more Stars plus a Turbo Boost!" and then you go on to race, while trying out said game mechanic. You do this 4 more times with different mechanics thrown at you and you've just completed the "School Cup" which unlocks WFC Play as well as VS Excite modes. Anyone familiar with ExciteTrucks knows that the levels are timed as well, usually no more than 3 mins per race, but the race can usually be won in 2.

If the reviewer didn't even unlock the WFC option, ie didnt complete the School Cup, she/he didnt even put 15mins into the game....

That's just sad....
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 23, 2009, 01:00:40 PM
http://uk.videogames.games.yahoo.com/blog/article/2997/ (http://uk.videogames.games.yahoo.com/blog/article/2997/)

This might be the worst game article I've ever read.  Particularly the use of Deca Sports 2 to gauge the sales of a sequel to a game that Deca Sports is a shameless ripoff of.  I mean use a normal substitution.

"Oh no, Saints Row II sold less than GTA: San Andreas!  Does this spell doom for GTA IV?"

Or

"Oh no Work Time Fun completely bombed!  People weary of Wario Ware?"

I mean articles like this totally lend credence to the idea that major games media have it in for Nintendo.  No wonder Nintendo fans believe that there's a big conspiracy around.  Because it's the only logical explanation left.  Why else hold panel meetings with Michael Pachter every month or week to "discuss" how wrong he was about NPD predictions and how "Sony is going to come back."  No wonder Wii fans and owners don't trust reviewers and games journalists.

Holy shiznit! That was the most biased article I've seen in a long long long time.

That ExciteBot review incident really pisses me off, having played the game all night last night and enjoying it.. he didn't even finish the fucking school cup to access the online?

For those of you that havent played it:
That means he played LESS THAN 5 RACES and reviewed the game.

You start the game, you set up your profile (which you use later to go online) with an icon and everything, then its a quick tuturiol. That alone takes no more than 5 mins. After the stupid tutoriol you unlock the "School Cup" which is basically an extension of the tuturial. Theres 5 levels and each introduces you to a new mechanic of the game, during a race. Such as "Turn your wii remote in sync with the motions of your Bot on screen to launch off the Red Spin Bar. Successful launches give you more Stars plus a Turbo Boost!" and then you go on to race, while trying out said game mechanic. You do this 4 more times with different mechanics thrown at you and you've just completed the "School Cup" which unlocks WFC Play as well as VS Excite modes. Anyone familiar with ExciteTrucks knows that the levels are timed as well, usually no more than 3 mins per race, but the race can usually be won in 2.

If the reviewer didn't even unlock the WFC option, ie didnt complete the School Cup, she/he didnt even put 15mins into the game....

That's just sad....

I am someone who isn't big when it comes to requiring reviewers to finish a game to review it, but really this is just sad. I beat the school cup in less then an hour EASILY in fact I NEVER had to repeat a race. so perhaps it was even shorter. At its heart the school cup is a freaken training mode. Even someone like me that doesn't care much about having to unlock things like multiplayer it wasn't a big deal.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: EasyCure on April 23, 2009, 01:15:05 PM
http://uk.videogames.games.yahoo.com/blog/article/2997/ (http://uk.videogames.games.yahoo.com/blog/article/2997/)

This might be the worst game article I've ever read.  Particularly the use of Deca Sports 2 to gauge the sales of a sequel to a game that Deca Sports is a shameless ripoff of.  I mean use a normal substitution.

"Oh no, Saints Row II sold less than GTA: San Andreas!  Does this spell doom for GTA IV?"

Or

"Oh no Work Time Fun completely bombed!  People weary of Wario Ware?"

I mean articles like this totally lend credence to the idea that major games media have it in for Nintendo.  No wonder Nintendo fans believe that there's a big conspiracy around.  Because it's the only logical explanation left.  Why else hold panel meetings with Michael Pachter every month or week to "discuss" how wrong he was about NPD predictions and how "Sony is going to come back."  No wonder Wii fans and owners don't trust reviewers and games journalists.

Holy shiznit! That was the most biased article I've seen in a long long long time.

That ExciteBot review incident really pisses me off, having played the game all night last night and enjoying it.. he didn't even finish the fucking school cup to access the online?

For those of you that havent played it:
That means he played LESS THAN 5 RACES and reviewed the game.

You start the game, you set up your profile (which you use later to go online) with an icon and everything, then its a quick tuturiol. That alone takes no more than 5 mins. After the stupid tutoriol you unlock the "School Cup" which is basically an extension of the tuturial. Theres 5 levels and each introduces you to a new mechanic of the game, during a race. Such as "Turn your wii remote in sync with the motions of your Bot on screen to launch off the Red Spin Bar. Successful launches give you more Stars plus a Turbo Boost!" and then you go on to race, while trying out said game mechanic. You do this 4 more times with different mechanics thrown at you and you've just completed the "School Cup" which unlocks WFC Play as well as VS Excite modes. Anyone familiar with ExciteTrucks knows that the levels are timed as well, usually no more than 3 mins per race, but the race can usually be won in 2.

If the reviewer didn't even unlock the WFC option, ie didnt complete the School Cup, she/he didnt even put 15mins into the game....

That's just sad....

I am someone who isn't big when it comes to requiring reviewers to finish a game to review it, but really this is just sad. I beat the school cup in less then an hour EASILY in fact I NEVER had to repeat a race. so perhaps it was even shorter. At its heart the school cup is a freaken training mode. Even someone like me that doesn't care much about having to unlock things like multiplayer it wasn't a big deal.

AND SHEZ A GURL NON-GAMERCAZUAL!

if she could do it easily, why couldn't this elitist hardcore reviewer? ;)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 23, 2009, 01:27:22 PM
Imagine and Petz series PWNS Easycure.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on April 23, 2009, 07:53:45 PM
Oddly enough, I have yet to play a single game from the Imagine series... though I do own a copy of Hamsterz...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mop it up on April 23, 2009, 07:59:53 PM
http://uk.videogames.games.yahoo.com/blog/article/2997/ (http://uk.videogames.games.yahoo.com/blog/article/2997/)
This might be the worst game article I've ever read.
Why is it that they always go straight to suggesting a redesigned Wii with HD as a way to boost sales? Even if their prediction came true and Wii Sports Resort doesn't help sell systems (which I highly doubt BTW), the easiest and most-effective way to boost sales would be a price cut and also introducing new colours. How would an HD Wii even help? It would raise the system price and wouldn't enhance current games. Plus, nobody cares about HD.

Here's another interesting article from them:
Wii MotionPlus backwards compatibility: Denied! (http://uk.videogames.games.yahoo.com/blog/article/2991/)
The person sounds honestly disappointed that no already released titles will have Wii Motion Plus support added with a patch, as if expecting that it would.

Here are two quotes:
Quote
Even so it might still be disappointing for newcomers who buy Wii Sports Resort with the expectation of finding a bountiful back catalogue of software where their new super-precise pointers can be put to good use.
The Wii Motion Plus enhances the motion-sensing, not the IR pointer. And only people who don't think realistically would be disappointed by such, but then again, such people are constantly disappointed so who cares?

Quote
Put another way, is it even worthwhile investing when only three games actually support the device?
Last I counted there were four games. And I'm sure there are absolutely no others in the works.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: EasyCure on April 24, 2009, 06:25:28 AM
Imagine and Petz series PWNS Easycure by default.

fixed
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on April 25, 2009, 07:27:29 PM
Imagine and Petz aren't stupid enough to pwn EasyCure.

That game belongs to Sonic Unleashed.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on April 29, 2009, 01:29:06 PM
A perfect example of how to do reviews properly (http://www.gamedaily.com/articles/galleries/even-more-reviews-from-the-future/)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 29, 2009, 01:32:24 PM
Completely make them up?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on April 29, 2009, 01:34:59 PM
What I find utterly hilarious is that in their first "reviews from the future" article, they gave Punch-Out Wii a 6 saying that it completely fails. But now that we actually have info on the game they now say that its a rock solid game that competes with Wii Sports greatly!

Idiots...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mop it up on April 29, 2009, 04:05:25 PM
What I find utterly hilarious is that in their first "reviews from the future" article, they gave Punch-Out Wii a 6 saying that it completely fails. But now that we actually have info on the game they now say that its a rock solid game that competes with Wii Sports greatly!
Moral of the story: don't judge a book before it's written.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 29, 2009, 05:09:33 PM
These gamedaily fa9s have learned a lot from Game Informer Magazine.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on April 30, 2009, 09:19:51 AM
Yes Pro, they learned how to be anti-Nintendo well. They may just take GI's crown soon.  :P
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 30, 2009, 10:05:06 AM
Gamedaily is terrible all around. They seem to be obsessed with their top "whatever" lists not to mention the horrible "one list item per page" thing. All around they seem to be extremely immature as well.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on April 30, 2009, 11:01:46 AM
Is that any different from the major outlets?  ;)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 30, 2009, 11:44:09 AM
Is that any different from the major outlets?  ;)

Well that is true as well. Though I think Gamedaily gets the edge for all its ridiculous top "stupid topic" of the day lists.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 30, 2009, 12:53:01 PM
The notable thing is GameDaily's prosperity thrives on these pageview-hit-lists.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 30, 2009, 12:56:42 PM
The only webpage worse then Gamedaily is that person who posts links to his page here that is stuffed with media files and Daisy pictures.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 30, 2009, 12:59:59 PM
You very well know there are very few Daisy pictures displayed on my site, tho I wish I could implement more.

I will not have any of this slander.

>=O
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on May 01, 2009, 07:58:42 AM
Top ten reasons why Pro will win over GP:
1-10: It's frickin' Pro Daisy.

Just like the Gamedaily pages. :D
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on June 01, 2009, 05:44:02 AM
Instead of Media, let's have a publisher's opinion:

This comes from Danny Bilson at THQ
'And then the nightmare of all for third parties, frankly, is the Wii. The Wii is a Monopoly box in a closet! I've got my Wii Sports and I'm good! I take it out, get the family around, we flail around for a couple hours, and we're happy until next month when we take it out, or maybe for junior's birthday, I'm going to buy him a Mario game.'

Bilson stressed that THQ is "supporting the Wii" and is planning to "greenlight more Wii games: family, casual, get everyone on the couch games. I'm a big believer in that." He continued, " Right now, we're not moving hardcore stuff to the Wii. We were; we stopped it, just because we're a little risk averse. I want to be with the culture of the Monopoly box in the closet – I've got to feed them. I've got to get them to want to buy another game, because they're not the gamers that are looking forward to the next thing next week in putting in the pre-orders and all that."
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on June 01, 2009, 07:21:44 AM
There's already a Malstrom response (http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2009/06/01/wii-is-monopoly-box-stuck-in-the-closet/).
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: mac<censored> on June 01, 2009, 08:01:17 AM
There's already a Malstrom response (http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2009/06/01/wii-is-monopoly-box-stuck-in-the-closet/).

heh, he nails it, pretty much.

It always baffles me to see 3rd parties releasing craptastic and/or simply unappealing games for the wii, see them not sell well -- and then come to the conclusion that there's something wrong with the wii or the wii market, rather than their lame games.

I don't even know what games THQ is responsible for, but that certainly sounds like what the THQ guy is doing.  It's pitiful and depressing at the same time...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: ThomasO on June 01, 2009, 08:10:25 AM
Far as I know,THQ does a lot of TV show/movie based games, like Rugrats, Spongebob, or Are you Smarter than a 5th grader.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on June 01, 2009, 08:41:56 AM
At least they took a chance on de Blob.  Looks like it paid off as almost a mil sold.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Dasmos on June 01, 2009, 08:47:32 AM
Yeah hopefully they'll still make de Blob 2.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on June 01, 2009, 08:51:35 AM
Wasn't de Blob still an example of "oh no, motion controls! How do we make them do the same thing as the buttons?"
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 01, 2009, 09:02:25 AM
Sean is now using the term "non-casual"!

YES!  "C___"  and "Hardc__e" are phasing out, even in vocabulary!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on June 01, 2009, 09:12:39 AM
So THQ joins Ubi in publishing houses we have to ignore?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on June 01, 2009, 09:18:10 AM
I thought Ubi is trying again with RS2 and RGH?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on June 01, 2009, 10:49:02 AM
I thought Ubi is trying again with RS2 and RGH?
That's really a mute point at this moment. Are they really trying to impress us or are they using those games to fund their black hole HD games?

So, anyway guys, boycot THQ. All in favor? ;)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on June 01, 2009, 02:53:38 PM
I don't think a boycott would have much effect, because nobody buys their sloppy games on the Wii anyway, aside from deBlob.

Isn't it funny how third parties make bad games on the Wii, and then use the fact that they make bad games and Nintendo makes good games to make nothing.  IT literally defies logic and I hope that reporter covering that followed up with such questions.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on June 01, 2009, 04:11:57 PM
Ubisoft actually has a bunch of great Wii titles that they developed or published. The only 3 good THQ titles on Wii are De Blob, Deadly Creatures and presumably Drawn to Life.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on June 01, 2009, 05:50:57 PM
See, in my honest opinion I wouldn't condemn the whole company over one comment a PR did. I am saying this because we assume that if someone said it the whole company must believe it. In this case it seems that the guy was given permission to speak and went too far.

Besides, THQ's influence hasn't been that strong on the Wii save for the occasional new IP and wrestling game. So while their support is good I wouldn't waste any energy trying to boycott them because in the end everyone looks stupid.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: mac<censored> on June 02, 2009, 07:00:46 AM
See, in my honest opinion I wouldn't condemn the whole company over one comment a PR did. I am saying this because we assume that if someone said it the whole company must believe it.

Well, you're right, but a lot of companies also seem to act as if their management pretty much agreed with this guy's blather.  So it's not much of a stretch to take what he said at face value...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on June 02, 2009, 12:13:03 PM
I was only being sarcastic about "boycotting" THQ. They can spew **** about Wii for all I care, but it's basically the same thing over and over again. They bitch, they whine, they complain, nobody can be pleased.

Sorry Gamepsy, but if I was Nintendo, I wouldn't give you ****. (http://wii.gamespy.com/wii/super-mario-galaxy-2/989391p1.html)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on July 07, 2009, 06:44:44 AM
Just remembered we had a thread for this.

HAHAHAHAHAHA, GamePro's review (http://gparcade.blogfaction.com/article/109005/wiiware-review-water-warfare/) was obviously produced by copying IGN's (http://uk.wii.ign.com/articles/999/999933p1.html). Note the factual errors: The mission count is 38, not 40 and assault is like the UT assault mode, not capture the flag (also there's no assault rifle, only a machinegun and a sniper rifle but most gamers don't know the difference between those so I'll let that slide). I guess that's why he's not elaborating on the "what not to do in an FPS". The whole thing seems to exist only to claim the Wii has no good FPSes, I don't think he ever played it.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on July 09, 2009, 01:00:08 AM
So the review got retracted because of plagiarism and the writer let go (http://gparcade.blogfaction.com/article/109120/review-similiarities-explanation/) (a volunteer writer who didn't get paid beyond receiving some review copies).
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Urkel on July 09, 2009, 02:48:37 PM
Looks like this isn't the only review he plagiarized. (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16602716&postcount=254)

lol games journalism
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 09, 2009, 04:19:02 PM
He can kiss his professional journalism ass good bye.
No self respecting publication is gonna hire someone who is proven to be a  plagiarist, whether it is in print or online.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on July 09, 2009, 11:51:02 PM
http://gparcade.blogfaction.com/article/109149/following-the-plagarism-issue/ (http://gparcade.blogfaction.com/article/109149/following-the-plagarism-issue/)

pwnt

Now Water Warfare no longer has an aggregate score on Metacritic... maybe NWR wants to review it? Sure, it's not high art but it's near the top of the sales charts even in the US so maybe a review would be relevant.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on July 10, 2009, 12:09:54 AM
Quote
He can kiss his professional journalism ass good bye.
No self respecting publication is gonna hire someone who is proven to be a  plagiarist, whether it is in print or online.

He could always get work at GoNintendo.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 10, 2009, 01:01:45 AM
Quote
He can kiss his professional journalism ass good bye.
No self respecting publication is gonna hire someone who is proven to be a  plagiarist, whether it is in print or online.

He could always get work at GoNintendo.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Djunknown on July 16, 2009, 11:17:47 PM
Everyone loves lists. (http://bitmob.com/index.php/mobfeed/Top-10-Bad-Things-the-Internet-Brought-to-Gaming-Journalism.html)

A contrary opinion. (http://www.crispygamer.com/columns/2009-07-16/press-pass-top-10-good-things-the-internet-has-brought-to-game-journalism.aspx) Its a two-pager.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 17, 2009, 01:41:07 AM
Great, use one article to generate traffic, then make a second article that's SPLIT to generate traffic AND help the first article genereate traffic.

Great googoly moogoly
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_Lindy on July 18, 2009, 11:00:49 AM
Wow, this thread really has turned into the Hall of Shame you guys talked about.  I haven't checked it in a while, but the stuff you guys are finding here really blows my mind.  Rampant bias, reviewers not even playing games...it's terrible.

What I really dislike is that there are so many game reviewers out there that are openly hostile to the Wii platform, and to a lesser extent Nintendo in general.  When I looked around and read other reviews of The Conduit, I couldn't believe how many reviewers treated the task of reviewing the game as secondary, instead preferring to use the review as a soapbox to rant about how the Wii hardware is ill-equipped to handle first-person shooters.  I've always felt that it's a reviewer's responsibility to put any personal feelings about a platform, game, or developer aside and review the game vis-a-vis with the hardware that it appears on.  The kinds of questions that a review of a Wii game should be answering are:

How does this game stack up against the best on the Wii?
Did the developer use the Wii hardware and featureset to its full potential?
Are the Wii's controls used effectively and judiciously?
Is the game design sound?
Is the game fun?
Will this game please its intended audience?

These are the questions that every Wii review should be answering, not questions like, "How much better would this game be on 360, PS3, or PC?"  Readers don't want to know that, unless they're reading the review for the express purpose of reaffirming their inner conviction of Wii Inferiority.

No wonder gaming "journalism" gets a bad rap...most of it is amateur, biased, and irresponsible.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Plugabugz on July 18, 2009, 11:31:56 AM
Wow, this thread really has turned into the Hall of Shame you guys talked about.  I haven't checked it in a while, but the stuff you guys are finding here really blows my mind.  Rampant bias, reviewers not even playing games...it's terrible.

What I really dislike is that there are so many game reviewers out there that are openly hostile to the Wii platform, and to a lesser extent Nintendo in general.  When I looked around and read other reviews of The Conduit, I couldn't believe how many reviewers treated the task of reviewing the game as secondary, instead preferring to use the review as a soapbox to rant about how the Wii hardware is ill-equipped to handle first-person shooters.  I've always felt that it's a reviewer's responsibility to put any personal feelings about a platform, game, or developer aside and review the game vis-a-vis with the hardware that it appears on.  The kinds of questions that a review of a Wii game should be answering are:

How does this game stack up against the best on the Wii?
Did the developer use the Wii hardware and featureset to its full potential?
Are the Wii's controls used effectively and judiciously?
Is the game design sound?
Is the game fun?
Will this game please its intended audience?

These are the questions that every Wii review should be answering, not questions like, "How much better would this game be on 360, PS3, or PC?"  Readers don't want to know that, unless they're reading the review for the express purpose of reaffirming their inner conviction of Wii Inferiority.

No wonder gaming "journalism" gets a bad rap...most of it is amateur, biased, and irresponsible.

The Conduit is an interesting one to note, because the developers themselves made the (ill-advised) decision to say their graphics engine can be compared to 360/PS3. My friend then said that "its fair to compare it to other platforms" because the developers opened the doors for that to happen. Plus on a platform that has, at most, a half dozen competent shooters it stands out considerably more than it would anywhere else.

He also just said that it set itself up for the criticism that came since because they claimed "Wii can do it too", when it well... can't. which is true.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 18, 2009, 11:45:45 AM
Lindy, you should do an editorial on this very topic. Take you time and make it quote worthy with lots of links to examples(wanna call out as many of these biased "journalist" as possible) and a link to this thread as inspiration.

You can use this article to help drive traffic to the site and spur discussion on the forums.
It can be known as one of the crowning achievements of you administration and a great push to NWR in general.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on July 18, 2009, 02:57:30 PM
Quote
These are the questions that every Wii review should be answering, not questions like, "How much better would this game be on 360, PS3, or PC?"  Readers don't want to know that, unless they're reading the review for the express purpose of reaffirming their inner conviction of Wii Inferiority.

What's astonishing, Lindy, is that this only happened once before, when the NES came out.  Most computer game magazines railed against the NES and Super Mario Bros. and all that stuff.  They either ignored it completely or compared it to their graphically superior commodore 64 or Amiga games, like that was what people were reading computer magazines for.

It's also important to see when this didn't happen, and that's last generation when the PS2 was by far the weakest.  Graphical comparisons were verboten unless it was an all-encompassing review of three versions, and even then it was only to find the "superior" version of a game, which didn't fluctuate in score much.  Games liek State of Emergency which were ugly as all hell got high scores in graphics because "it's what the the PS2 could do."  And don't even say that "all three consoles were similar in power," because they obviously weren't. RE4 on the PS2 seemed to suffer no penalty after it's complete graphical and computational downgrade to the PS2.

Of course nowadays graphics are the only thing that matters, which is quite comical because this might be the last real graphical upgrade we'll ever see. (Nintendo's next may beat out PS3 and 360's gfx tech, if only because such tech is pretty cheap even now.)  What's funny about Conduit is that it somehow became a priority to review for some of these press outlets, even those most were cajoling the game beforehand.  My favorite was Gamepro's, which had to have been the most tortured review ever to write, because it had to simultaneously praise the game, praise the controls, damn the Wii and it's Wii-mote, praise the graphical design, slam the Wii's graphics, praise the developer, and damn Nintendo, all at the same time.

There just seems to be this feeling like they want Nintendo to fail, and this was reflected all throughout EGM's demise.  I mean, put yourself in a new customer's shoes.  You just got into games because of Wii.  You notice every magazine hates the Wii and you by proxy, whether they say you are a non-gaming grandma (which you either aren't, which makes you angry, or you are, which still makes you angry because they are using you as an insult) or belittle every game the Wii gets, even when it becomes the best-selling fighting game of all time or the best selling driving game of all time (SSBB and Mario Kart Wii).  Would you even care what they said about any Wii game after that?  Would you care what they thought?  Would you even shed a single solitary tear as their magazine goes out of business?

It's almost like the reviewers aren't even talking to you.   They are talking to either developers or their own little clique of Wii-haters.  And this shows in stunts like what EGM pulled with Endless Ocean.  I don't think games market journalism has ever been more tainted since the late-90's where they would essentially buy reviews with lavish trips to Jamaica and stuff.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_Lindy on July 18, 2009, 04:33:07 PM
Lindy, you should do an editorial on this very topic. Take you time and make it quote worthy with lots of links to examples(wanna call out as many of these biased "journalist" as possible) and a link to this thread as inspiration.

I'm tempted to, but I don't want to get into any mud-slinging.  I don't know if I could write anything without coming off as sarcastically self-important.

Deg, I think that in some ways Nintendo is a victim of their own success in terms of how they are treated by the media.  They're so astoundingly successful that I think a good chunk of the media just gets sick of hearing about them and having to report on them, especially when Nintendo makes games that aren't catering to their tastes.  I also feel that there's a "Video gaming is my thing, I don't want to share it with anyone" mentality going on, with people wanting to portray themselves as more "real" by dissing Nintendo.  In other words, Nintendo has lost its "street cred".

I feel that if you're going to actually be a " professional gaming journalist", you actually have to BE a journalist, meaning that you should cover your material with as unbiased an eye as possible.  I mean, it's your JOB to do so, or at least it should be.  The problem with gaming journalism these days is that there's too much "gaming" and not enough "journalism".  Just because you know a lot about games doesn't mean you know anything about journalism, or how to do it right.

I wish that more people would take the journalism aspect more seriously.  I think guys like Chris Kohler and N'Gai Croal do it right, but a lot of people out there simply do it wrong.  You can't be an impartial observer if you're covertly rooting for one of the teams in the game.  You don't see ESPN's John Clayton saying, "The Bills are going to be pretty good this year.  Well, as good as you could expect from a crappy sports town like Buffalo.  If only they were owned by a real owner like Jerry Jones."  And that's because, as a journalist, his job is to put his personal interests aside.  I don't see how games journalism is any different...it should be afforded the same respect, honestly.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on July 18, 2009, 07:36:30 PM
Quote
Deg, I think that in some ways Nintendo is a victim of their own success in terms of how they are treated by the media.  They're so astoundingly successful that I think a good chunk of the media just gets sick of hearing about them and having to report on them,

Well they can get jobs elsewhere, seriously.  Look, you don't get to choose what to report if you are a general video games publication.  You should report it all, period.  If anybody wants slanted hate they can go to a free blog instead of paying $20 a month for the privilege.

Quote
especially when Nintendo makes games that aren't catering to their tastes.

It doesn't matter what their tastes are.  It matters what the current readers and potential readers tastes are.  And when you are turning away a whole potential readership just to crack jokes with your ever-dwindling current readership, you asked for your own death.

Quote
I also feel that there's a "Video gaming is my thing, I don't want to share it with anyone" mentality going on, with people wanting to portray themselves as more "real" by dissing Nintendo.  In other words, Nintendo has lost its "street cred".

Yeah, represent!  Show that kiddie casual Nintendo who runs the LAN party in my parent's basement.  This has been going on ever since the late 90's.  They may just be bitter than their combined editorials for the better part of a decade did jack squat to deter Nintendo, especially when their chosen horse PSP got trampled by a another console that didn't have any "street cred," whatever the hell that means in regards to video games.  But if they don't want to be a part of video games journalism anymore, they are welcome to GTFO and let somebody who does care about covering the video games market and its defacto leaders, Nintendo.  It's only fair.  Nintendo fans had to put up with Playstation mania for a whole decade, all they while none of the media outlets had any problem with "being tired of Sony."  Whether because they are fanboys or Nintendo's not paying them bribes, they seem to have an issue now.  And they don't see how this hurts readership until they've been liquidated.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on July 18, 2009, 09:21:43 PM
The reason videogame journalism has yet to grow up is because the industry itself is still pretty young. Yes its been around for ages, yes more people are gamers and yes videogames are slowly becoming more social. But the childish mentality is still around and its what prevents it from being professional.

Just look at E3, a TRADESHOW that seems to pander to the typical gamer despite being a show aimed at investors. Nintendo showed everything they have planned, including expanded audience games, and they get bashed for doing that. They get bashed for doing business at what is supposed to be a business thing.

Until the videogame industry realizes that they need to take themselves seriously videogame journalism will continue to be immature and unprofessional.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: DAaaMan64 on July 18, 2009, 09:27:17 PM
Until the videogame industry realizes that they need to take themselves seriously videogame journalism will continue to be immature and unprofessional.

The internet will never be mature and proffessional.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on July 18, 2009, 09:30:41 PM
Until the videogame industry realizes that they need to take themselves seriously videogame journalism will continue to be immature and unprofessional.

The internet will never be mature and proffessional.

This is a problem NOT exclusive to the internet. Sure it brought it to a bigger audience but elitism in videogames already existed back in the day. I certainly remember the claims that Gamepro loved Sony a little too much, and this was on their own reader's letters section.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_Lindy on July 19, 2009, 07:12:25 AM
You can love whatever company you want.  Just don't let that color your news and reviews.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on July 19, 2009, 10:26:54 AM

The Conduit is an interesting one to note, because the developers themselves made the (ill-advised) decision to say their graphics engine can be compared to 360/PS3. My friend then said that "its fair to compare it to other platforms" because the developers opened the doors for that to happen.

I agree.  I was all for the Conduit when it was first announced, but over the course of the last 16 months I found myself growing more and more annoyed with the developers in listening to their ridiculous promises.  They brought the silly 360/PS3 comparisons upon themselves.  Hopefully it'll be a lesson learned, and they'll avoid claiming The Grinder will look just as good as Left 4 Dead.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on July 19, 2009, 11:10:42 AM

The Conduit is an interesting one to note, because the developers themselves made the (ill-advised) decision to say their graphics engine can be compared to 360/PS3. My friend then said that "its fair to compare it to other platforms" because the developers opened the doors for that to happen.

I agree.  I was all for the Conduit when it was first announced, but over the course of the last 16 months I found myself growing more and more annoyed with the developers in listening to their ridiculous promises.  They brought the silly 360/PS3 comparisons upon themselves.  Hopefully it'll be a lesson learned, and they'll avoid claiming The Grinder will look just as good as Left 4 Dead.


First of all, HVS isn't the first and won't be the last developer that brags about their work. Nearly all developers brag about their game being "special" and tout amazing features. Sakurai did it with Brawl, Next Level Games did it with Punch Out Wii, Square Enix does it with nearly all of their games, so on and so forth.

Second, even if HVS did brought it upon themselves that still doesn't excused the biased, unfair reviews for The Conduit. The important thing is if the product is good regardless of personal preferences or what the developers have said or done.

If reviewers are going to bash a game simply because the developers have hyped it as the second coming of Jesus in digital form then they might as well underrate all games that received a big marketing push.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_Lindy on July 19, 2009, 11:20:32 AM
Totally agree, Pap.  It's the reviewer's job to review the game outside of the hype machine to the best of their abilities.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on July 19, 2009, 11:29:56 AM

The Conduit is an interesting one to note, because the developers themselves made the (ill-advised) decision to say their graphics engine can be compared to 360/PS3. My friend then said that "its fair to compare it to other platforms" because the developers opened the doors for that to happen.

I agree.  I was all for the Conduit when it was first announced, but over the course of the last 16 months I found myself growing more and more annoyed with the developers in listening to their ridiculous promises.  They brought the silly 360/PS3 comparisons upon themselves.  Hopefully it'll be a lesson learned, and they'll avoid claiming The Grinder will look just as good as Left 4 Dead.


First of all, HVS isn't the first and won't be the last developer that brags about their work. Nearly all developers brag about their game being "special" and tout amazing features. Sakurai did it with Brawl, Next Level Games did it with Punch Out Wii, Square Enix does it with nearly all of their games, so on and so forth.

Second, even if HVS did brought it upon themselves that still doesn't excused the biased, unfair reviews for The Conduit. The important thing is if the product is good regardless of personal preferences or what the developers have said or done.

If reviewers are going to bash a game simply because the developers have hyped it as the second coming of Jesus in digital form then they might as well underrate all games that received a big marketing push.

I haven't combed through too many Conduit reviews, but I haven't seen a lot of "bias" against its technical merits outside a little gentle ribbing over HV's hype machine.  The most I've seen is people mocking the generally PS2-quality environments after all the bragging High Voltage did about how great their game looked, which is not in the least unwarranted.  Most of the complaints I've seen with the game lie with the lackluster level design that leads to a boring singleplayer mode, something I can attest from my own experiences with the game is also not unwarranted.

I definitely agree, though, that games need to be judged on their own merits and not compared to others (especially on other platforms).  I don't dislike The Conduit because I can (and have) played better FPS games on my PS3 or PC, but because I genuinely did not find it fun to play among all the design flaws and bugs.  So long as reviewers can distinguish that from general Wii-bashing, that's fine with me.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on July 19, 2009, 12:41:28 PM

The Conduit is an interesting one to note, because the developers themselves made the (ill-advised) decision to say their graphics engine can be compared to 360/PS3. My friend then said that "its fair to compare it to other platforms" because the developers opened the doors for that to happen.

I agree.  I was all for the Conduit when it was first announced, but over the course of the last 16 months I found myself growing more and more annoyed with the developers in listening to their ridiculous promises.  They brought the silly 360/PS3 comparisons upon themselves.  Hopefully it'll be a lesson learned, and they'll avoid claiming The Grinder will look just as good as Left 4 Dead.


First of all, HVS isn't the first and won't be the last developer that brags about their work. Nearly all developers brag about their game being "special" and tout amazing features. Sakurai did it with Brawl, Next Level Games did it with Punch Out Wii, Square Enix does it with nearly all of their games, so on and so forth.

Second, even if HVS did brought it upon themselves that still doesn't excused the biased, unfair reviews for The Conduit. The important thing is if the product is good regardless of personal preferences or what the developers have said or done.

If reviewers are going to bash a game simply because the developers have hyped it as the second coming of Jesus in digital form then they might as well underrate all games that received a big marketing push.

All games are hyped but The Conduit was certainly uniquely overboard.  It was latched onto immediately by the hardcore and HVS went beyond the normal hype machine PR in pushing their game as a "360 experience with Wii controls".  As a consumer, I want the reviewer to communicate if HVS was able to live up to this seemingly impossible guarantee.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 19, 2009, 01:59:52 PM

The Conduit is an interesting one to note, because the developers themselves made the (ill-advised) decision to say their graphics engine can be compared to 360/PS3. My friend then said that "its fair to compare it to other platforms" because the developers opened the doors for that to happen.

I agree.  I was all for the Conduit when it was first announced, but over the course of the last 16 months I found myself growing more and more annoyed with the developers in listening to their ridiculous promises.  They brought the silly 360/PS3 comparisons upon themselves.  Hopefully it'll be a lesson learned, and they'll avoid claiming The Grinder will look just as good as Left 4 Dead.


First of all, HVS isn't the first and won't be the last developer that brags about their work. Nearly all developers brag about their game being "special" and tout amazing features. Sakurai did it with Brawl, Next Level Games did it with Punch Out Wii, Square Enix does it with nearly all of their games, so on and so forth.

Second, even if HVS did brought it upon themselves that still doesn't excused the biased, unfair reviews for The Conduit. The important thing is if the product is good regardless of personal preferences or what the developers have said or done.

If reviewers are going to bash a game simply because the developers have hyped it as the second coming of Jesus in digital form then they might as well underrate all games that received a big marketing push.

All games are hyped but The Conduit was certainly uniquely overboard.  It was latched onto immediately by the hardcore and HVS went beyond the normal hype machine PR in pushing their game as a "360 experience with Wii controls".  As a consumer, I want the reviewer to communicate if HVS was able to live up to this seemingly impossible guarantee.

So that is why it has a 7/10 average of metacritic? OMGZ overhyped.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on July 19, 2009, 02:21:42 PM

The Conduit is an interesting one to note, because the developers themselves made the (ill-advised) decision to say their graphics engine can be compared to 360/PS3. My friend then said that "its fair to compare it to other platforms" because the developers opened the doors for that to happen.

I agree.  I was all for the Conduit when it was first announced, but over the course of the last 16 months I found myself growing more and more annoyed with the developers in listening to their ridiculous promises.  They brought the silly 360/PS3 comparisons upon themselves.  Hopefully it'll be a lesson learned, and they'll avoid claiming The Grinder will look just as good as Left 4 Dead.


First of all, HVS isn't the first and won't be the last developer that brags about their work. Nearly all developers brag about their game being "special" and tout amazing features. Sakurai did it with Brawl, Next Level Games did it with Punch Out Wii, Square Enix does it with nearly all of their games, so on and so forth.

Second, even if HVS did brought it upon themselves that still doesn't excused the biased, unfair reviews for The Conduit. The important thing is if the product is good regardless of personal preferences or what the developers have said or done.

If reviewers are going to bash a game simply because the developers have hyped it as the second coming of Jesus in digital form then they might as well underrate all games that received a big marketing push.

All games are hyped but The Conduit was certainly uniquely overboard.  It was latched onto immediately by the hardcore and HVS went beyond the normal hype machine PR in pushing their game as a "360 experience with Wii controls".  As a consumer, I want the reviewer to communicate if HVS was able to live up to this seemingly impossible guarantee.

So that is why it has a 7/10 average of metacritic? OMGZ overhyped.

Of course not.  It has a 7/10 average due to bland level/enemy design yet solid Wii controls.  Good, but not great.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Plugabugz on July 19, 2009, 03:33:46 PM
The posts that followed mine are interesting. So i'm gonna make a spin-off thread.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on July 19, 2009, 04:24:10 PM
I would point out as Devil's Advocate, though, that just as people claim a bias against the Wii in the media, I'd argue that that the bar has been set so low on Wii software that we've actually seen Wii grade inflation.  Take the reviews for Madworld, for instance.  In quite a few of them there's a tone of "well, this game has problems but we're going to give it a high score because it's on the Wii."  Madworld has its moments and can be a generally-enjoyable experience (when the camera isn't pissing me off and I haven't yet gotten bored of the combat), but a 9+ ?  Really?  I'd argue that we've seen a similar effect with Conduit scores, where there's a lot of "well, this game isn't all that great, but because it's on the Wii and there's nothing else quite like it on the platform, we're going to give it a pass because it's a first step for Wii 3rd parties.

So I think the Wii's created a parodoxical situation in the press with the way Nintendo has handled its library: on the one hand, you have some who use the Wii's erratic library as an excuse to attack it for not being like the other consoles...and then on the other, you have some who use the Wii's erratic library as an excuse to over-hype games that don't deserve it just because they're better than the usual dreck and Wii gamers "just don't know better".  I'm rather curious which faction will win in the end.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: mac<censored> on July 19, 2009, 06:02:58 PM
Of course the problem is the same, regardless of what direction it perturbs the results, and on every platform:  reviewers often hardly seem to look at the game at all, but use every review as a tool to advance what ever pathetic agenda they have.  You can usually predict what they'll say years in advance based on whatever fanboy cult they belong to.

NWR reviews excepted of course (not being sarcastic -- the reviews on here are a refreshing breath of reality in the wacky bizarro world of game-review posturing).
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on July 25, 2009, 02:10:12 PM
I don't think The Conduit got inflated scores. Madworld, yes. What I think does happen is that many reviewers get strongly influenced by presentation, a well presented game that's just not terribly interesting to play (MaBoShi) gets high scores while many games that get described as fun but offer a bad presentation are called guilty pleasures by the reviewers and given a low score along with a purchase recommendation. Reviewers seem to disconnect the fun from the final score which seems to be more based on the "complete package", no matter how relevant the rest of that package actually is. A game is not "objectively" good or bad, that's rating it by technical merits. A game's purpose is to create a certain emotional response within the user to grant him entertainment and many games succeed at it despite "objectively" being low quality.

In other words, never call a game a guilty pleasure, recognize that it is a good game.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 25, 2009, 02:15:46 PM
I don't think The Conduit got inflated scores. Madworld, yes. What I think does happen is that many reviewers get strongly influenced by presentation, a well presented game that's just not terribly interesting to play (MaBoShi) gets high scores while many games that get described as fun but offer a bad presentation are called guilty pleasures by the reviewers and given a low score along with a purchase recommendation. Reviewers seem to disconnect the fun from the final score which seems to be more based on the "complete package", no matter how relevant the rest of that package actually is. A game is not "objectively" good or bad, that's rating it by technical merits. A game's purpose is to create a certain emotional response within the user to grant him entertainment and many games succeed at it despite "objectively" being low quality.

In other words, never call a game a guilty pleasure, recognize that it is a good game.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on July 25, 2009, 07:05:38 PM
I don't think The Conduit got inflated scores. Madworld, yes. What I think does happen is that many reviewers get strongly influenced by presentation, a well presented game that's just not terribly interesting to play (MaBoShi) gets high scores while many games that get described as fun but offer a bad presentation are called guilty pleasures by the reviewers and given a low score along with a purchase recommendation. Reviewers seem to disconnect the fun from the final score which seems to be more based on the "complete package", no matter how relevant the rest of that package actually is. A game is not "objectively" good or bad, that's rating it by technical merits. A game's purpose is to create a certain emotional response within the user to grant him entertainment and many games succeed at it despite "objectively" being low quality.

In other words, never call a game a guilty pleasure, recognize that it is a good game.

You don't think The Conduit got inflated scores?  I was just listening to a 1up podcast (ListenUp) the other day regarding the Conduit and they spoke to the game's reviewer for the site.  They asked him what he thought of the game, and he said "it's a good shooter for the Wii."  One of the other guys pressed him on this asking "strip away the 'Wii' part and is it a good 'shooter'."  "No" was his reply (he would later go on to quantify this).  Even though the reviewer gave the game a C+, it sounds like he let predisposed notions of the platform's capabilities and its audience influence his impressions of the game.  I also have a hard time believing that the IGN crew were unbiased with the Conduit's scores considering that they have been drooling over that game ever since it was announced.  Hell, they even have their names in the frickin' credits under the "Special Thanks" section.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on July 25, 2009, 07:30:10 PM
I don't think The Conduit got inflated scores. Madworld, yes. What I think does happen is that many reviewers get strongly influenced by presentation, a well presented game that's just not terribly interesting to play (MaBoShi) gets high scores while many games that get described as fun but offer a bad presentation are called guilty pleasures by the reviewers and given a low score along with a purchase recommendation. Reviewers seem to disconnect the fun from the final score which seems to be more based on the "complete package", no matter how relevant the rest of that package actually is. A game is not "objectively" good or bad, that's rating it by technical merits. A game's purpose is to create a certain emotional response within the user to grant him entertainment and many games succeed at it despite "objectively" being low quality.

In other words, never call a game a guilty pleasure, recognize that it is a good game.

You don't think The Conduit got inflated scores?  I was just listening to a 1up podcast (ListenUp) the other day regarding the Conduit and they spoke to the game's reviewer for the site.  They asked him what he thought of the game, and he said "it's a good shooter for the Wii."  One of the other guys pressed him on this asking "strip away the 'Wii' part and is it a good 'shooter'."  "No" was his reply (he would later go on to quantify this).  Even though the reviewer gave the game a C+, it sounds like he let predisposed notions of the platform's capabilities and its audience influence his impressions of the game.  I also have a hard time believing that the IGN crew were unbiased with the Conduit's scores considering that they have been drooling over that game ever since it was announced.  Hell, they even have their names in the frickin' credits under the "Special Thanks" section.

If he really said that, it sounds like he did inflate it, as good does not equal C+.   Wasn't that Garnett who reviewed it?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on July 25, 2009, 07:35:01 PM
I don't think The Conduit got inflated scores. Madworld, yes. What I think does happen is that many reviewers get strongly influenced by presentation, a well presented game that's just not terribly interesting to play (MaBoShi) gets high scores while many games that get described as fun but offer a bad presentation are called guilty pleasures by the reviewers and given a low score along with a purchase recommendation. Reviewers seem to disconnect the fun from the final score which seems to be more based on the "complete package", no matter how relevant the rest of that package actually is. A game is not "objectively" good or bad, that's rating it by technical merits. A game's purpose is to create a certain emotional response within the user to grant him entertainment and many games succeed at it despite "objectively" being low quality.

In other words, never call a game a guilty pleasure, recognize that it is a good game.

You don't think The Conduit got inflated scores?  I was just listening to a 1up podcast (ListenUp) the other day regarding the Conduit and they spoke to the game's reviewer for the site.  They asked him what he thought of the game, and he said "it's a good shooter for the Wii."  One of the other guys pressed him on this asking "strip away the 'Wii' part and is it a good 'shooter'."  "No" was his reply (he would later go on to quantify this).  Even though the reviewer gave the game a C+, it sounds like he let predisposed notions of the platform's capabilities and its audience influence his impressions of the game.  I also have a hard time believing that the IGN crew were unbiased with the Conduit's scores considering that they have been drooling over that game ever since it was announced.  Hell, they even have their names in the frickin' credits under the "Special Thanks" section.

If he really said that, it sounds like he did inflate it, as good does not equal C+.   Wasn't that Garnett who reviewed it?

http://www.1up.com/do/minisite?cId=3172882

It's the 6/26/2009 episode of ListenUp, and yes Garnett Lee did review The Conduit for the site.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on July 26, 2009, 01:06:11 AM
You don't think The Conduit got inflated scores?  I was just listening to a 1up podcast (ListenUp) the other day regarding the Conduit and they spoke to the game's reviewer for the site.  They asked him what he thought of the game, and he said "it's a good shooter for the Wii."  One of the other guys pressed him on this asking "strip away the 'Wii' part and is it a good 'shooter'."  "No" was his reply (he would later go on to quantify this).  Even though the reviewer gave the game a C+, it sounds like he let predisposed notions of the platform's capabilities and its audience influence his impressions of the game.  I also have a hard time believing that the IGN crew were unbiased with the Conduit's scores considering that they have been drooling over that game ever since it was announced.  Hell, they even have their names in the frickin' credits under the "Special Thanks" section.

IGN maybe (though I can see someone liking it a lot if they focus on the multiplayer instead of singleplayer and their connection is fine, many reviewers handled the multiplayer in one paragraph and spent the rest whining about the SP) but a C+ sounds fair. If that's inflated I think he had an unwarrantedly low oppinion of the game. Besides, "good" translates to B so it matches the language.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 26, 2009, 11:12:02 AM
You don't think The Conduit got inflated scores?  I was just listening to a 1up podcast (ListenUp) the other day regarding the Conduit and they spoke to the game's reviewer for the site.  They asked him what he thought of the game, and he said "it's a good shooter for the Wii."  One of the other guys pressed him on this asking "strip away the 'Wii' part and is it a good 'shooter'."  "No" was his reply (he would later go on to quantify this).  Even though the reviewer gave the game a C+, it sounds like he let predisposed notions of the platform's capabilities and its audience influence his impressions of the game.  I also have a hard time believing that the IGN crew were unbiased with the Conduit's scores considering that they have been drooling over that game ever since it was announced.  Hell, they even have their names in the frickin' credits under the "Special Thanks" section.

IGN maybe (though I can see someone liking it a lot if they focus on the multiplayer instead of singleplayer and their connection is fine, many reviewers handled the multiplayer in one paragraph and spent the rest whining about the SP) but a C+ sounds fair. If that's inflated I think he had an unwarrantedly low oppinion of the game. Besides, "good" translates to B so it matches the language.

A certain site gave it an 8.5 as well. Not sure why IGN should be harpooned alone for "inflating" the score (funny never thought high 8s was inflating anything). Personally I really enjoy the game and while it has its flaws I can understand why some really got into it.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on July 26, 2009, 11:16:24 AM
As I said, probably depends on how you weight the multiplayer aspect and how it works for you.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_Lindy on August 09, 2009, 05:19:51 PM
They asked him what he thought of the game, and he said "it's a good shooter for the Wii."  One of the other guys pressed him on this asking "strip away the 'Wii' part and is it a good 'shooter'."  "No" was his reply (he would later go on to quantify this).

It's pretty obvious that whoever was asking him that question had an agenda for making the Wii look bad.  It's like they were playing a game called "Let's Keep Asking Questions Until We Get a Response that Slams the Wii".

Even though the reviewer gave the game a C+, it sounds like he let predisposed notions of the platform's capabilities and its audience influence his impressions of the game.

Uh...as a reviewer, what the hell else are you supposed to do?  I'll tell you what.  I like PS3 games.  From now on, every time I play a Nintendo DS game, I'm no longer going to score it based on how it compares to other games on the DS platform, and I'll instead compare it to my favorite PS3 games.  Sorry Dragon Quest IX, you just got a 1/10 instead of a 9/10 because you don't compare to, say, Valkyria Chronicles.

Silly example, but seriously, I hate it when people get their pitchforks and torches out for a Wii game - any Wii game - just because it doesn't do what a 360 or PS3 game does.  THE WII IS NOT A PS3 OR 360.  It can't do what those systems do.  But given what it CAN do, is a game done well?  Answer that.  Anything else is just pushing agenda.

I'm not a Wii fanboy by any stretch, but it annoys me to no end when people sit there and go out of their way to point out how inferior the Wii hardware is to PS3 and 360.  It's this little personal grudge...they feel that Wii is ruining gaming and have to vent their frustration in a passive/aggressive manner.  "See?  The Conduit isn't as good as COD4.  I KNEW IT!  I TOLD YOU SO!!"  God, grow the hell up and be professional.

/rage
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on August 10, 2009, 10:30:35 PM
IGN fails to even research its own premises for interview questions.

http://ds.ign.com/articles/101/1012759p1.html (http://ds.ign.com/articles/101/1012759p1.html)

It's amusing to see Matt Cassamassina get slapped around with a random fact, but this question seemed based in some sort of alternate reality where the DS is struggling or something.  Don't these guys get to look at the NPD data?  Would it have killed them to even do a little cursory MATH before asking a question rooted in "doomed Nintendo?"  Why is every press article about Nintendo always coming from this absurd standpoint that Nintendo is always in danger of being "doomed" or "a fad" or "a bubble" when just the raw numbers prove them wrong, period?
Title: For The Lazy
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 10, 2009, 10:44:16 PM
Quote from: IGNorant
IGN: The Nintendo DSi system seems a little slow out of the gate since its release three months ago compared to other Nintendo system launches. What sort of efforts can we expect to see leading up to the holiday season in giving the Nintendo DSi a full-blown push to the customer?

Denise Kaigler: Sorry, but I'm going to have to strongly disagree with your premise. In just three months, Nintendo DSi has sold more than 1.7 million in the United States alone, according to the NPD Group. I wouldn't call that slow at all. After three months, the original Nintendo DS had sold nearly 1.38 million and Nintendo DS Lite had sold more than 1.07 million. Even the Wii console had sold "only" about 1.52 million after three months. So Nintendo DSi is beating them all.

(http://i29.tinypic.com/4zz1cn.gif)

Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on August 10, 2009, 10:48:27 PM
Matt got pwned, served, grilled and everything else.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Guitar Smasher on August 10, 2009, 11:27:42 PM
The fact that this article got posted at all by IGN leads me to suspect that they were setting up Kaigler for a specific response (the one provided).  Unless they were speaking with regards to the advertising of the system, which in my experience has been very little.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: mac<censored> on August 11, 2009, 08:07:58 AM
The fact that this article got posted at all by IGN leads me to suspect that they were setting up Kaigler for a specific response (the one provided).

If they were doing that, wouldn't they have chosen wording that didn't make them look so stupid?
[For instance, "Some people say that the DSI looks a little slow out of the gate..."]

As it is, they looked thoroughly spanked.

Given IGN's long record of cluelessness, it seems simpler to just take what happened at face value, and conclude they were sloppy and got called on it.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on August 11, 2009, 09:00:20 AM
The fact that this article got posted at all by IGN leads me to suspect that they were setting up Kaigler for a specific response (the one provided).  Unless they were speaking with regards to the advertising of the system, which in my experience has been very little.

Asking Nintendo seems to be a regular feature on IGN so they probably had to post something on the schedule.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on August 13, 2009, 08:18:53 PM
This Matt grilling was very long over-do.

VERY VERY LONG OVERDUE.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Djunknown on August 16, 2009, 08:43:42 PM
I was thinking of putting this in the funhouse, but I figure it would do better here.

An interesting editorial (http://www.destructoid.com/nintendo-of-america-needs-to-stfu-144387.phtml)

As always, some choice bits:

Quote
Nintendo is a man telling you he's your friend while he's steadily kicking you in the groin. For that, Nintendo definitely needs to STFU.

Quote
A new Metroid, Mario and the teased new Zelda (Pikmin 3 appears to have been forgotten by this point) do not exactly make for a killer lineup, especially considering the fact that it's been a year since E3 08. Yet Nintendo fans will justify the company's attitude by actually beinggrateful for it. As if Nintendo has done an amazing thing. Really, Nintendo has done what it's always done: Made a big show of being "sorry" for its arrogance, tossed a mere handful of interesting videogames our way, then gone back to its usual embrace of soccer moms and grandmothers. The fact that Nintendo fans lap that &*!# up like starving dogs is kind of pathetic, really.

Italics are his, the word that was blocked because we can't say, is mine.

Quote
It's the half-measures that irk me more than anything else. If Nintendo wants to be an arrogant, condescending *(#!, then that's fine. That's fantastic, in fact. However, it never wants to go all the way...Maybe it's simply because it realizes it can still make plenty of money out of a demographic it's shown public disdain for. Not many companies can laugh in the face of its consumers on a public stage and still command their loyalty...

In short, I find it to be a rehash of old arguments, with some colorful langauge and imagery.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 16, 2009, 09:02:54 PM
It's like a typical, weak forum poast.  The fact it's published gives it an artificial air of importance.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 16, 2009, 09:15:46 PM
I was thinking of putting this in the funhouse, but I figure it would do better here.

An interesting editorial (http://www.destructoid.com/nintendo-of-america-needs-to-stfu-144387.phtml)

As always, some choice bits:

Quote
Nintendo is a man telling you he's your friend while he's steadily kicking you in the groin. For that, Nintendo definitely needs to STFU.

Quote
A new Metroid, Mario and the teased new Zelda (Pikmin 3 appears to have been forgotten by this point) do not exactly make for a killer lineup, especially considering the fact that it's been a year since E3 08. Yet Nintendo fans will justify the company's attitude by actually beinggrateful for it. As if Nintendo has done an amazing thing. Really, Nintendo has done what it's always done: Made a big show of being "sorry" for its arrogance, tossed a mere handful of interesting videogames our way, then gone back to its usual embrace of soccer moms and grandmothers. The fact that Nintendo fans lap that &*!# up like starving dogs is kind of pathetic, really.

Italics are his, the word that was blocked because we can't say, is mine.

Quote
It's the half-measures that irk me more than anything else. If Nintendo wants to be an arrogant, condescending *(#!, then that's fine. That's fantastic, in fact. However, it never wants to go all the way...Maybe it's simply because it realizes it can still make plenty of money out of a demographic it's shown public disdain for. Not many companies can laugh in the face of its consumers on a public stage and still command their loyalty...

In short, I find it to be a rehash of old arguments, with some colorful langauge and imagery.

I don't think this is an example of pathetic journalism.  First of all, its on a blog.  In addition, its supposed to be over the top and full of hyperbole as the Sony, and MS posts were.  And finally, the main point of the article is sadly true.  Nintendo is swimming in arrogance right now.  Sailing away on the big blue sea while tossing a few scraps to the faithful.  Its an arrogance similar to that which deluded Sony into believing they could charge $600 for the PS3.  They'll learn in time.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 16, 2009, 09:41:07 PM
Nintendo "fans" will die out with the rest of the non-casuals.

Nintendo was right to abandon the sinking ship.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on August 16, 2009, 09:50:28 PM
Quote
Nintendo is swimming in arrogance right now.  Sailing away on the big blue sea while tossing a few scraps to the faithful.  Its an arrogance similar to that which deluded Sony into believing they could charge $600 for the PS3.  They'll learn in time.

I'm not sure I follow.  Where is Nintendo showing their "arrogance" here?  By making products that are popular with several types of customers instead of just one type?  And this is equivalent to saying people should work two jobs to buy a PS3?  Accusations of "arrogance" tend to pop up when somebody gets popular.  Nintendo is no exception.  People claimed Nintendo was "Arrogant" to make the DS, to make the Wiimote, and now apparently to make games like Wii Fit.  HOW DARE THEY... make... video games with varying popularity with the internet media...  or something.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 16, 2009, 09:55:44 PM
Quote
Nintendo is swimming in arrogance right now.  Sailing away on the big blue sea while tossing a few scraps to the faithful.  Its an arrogance similar to that which deluded Sony into believing they could charge $600 for the PS3.  They'll learn in time.

I'm not sure I follow.  Where is Nintendo showing their "arrogance" here?  By making products that are popular with several types of customers instead of just one type?  And this is equivalent to saying people should work two jobs to buy a PS3?  Accusations of "arrogance" tend to pop up when somebody gets popular.  Nintendo is no exception.  People claimed Nintendo was "Arrogant" to make the DS, to make the Wiimote, and now apparently to make games like Wii Fit.  HOW DARE THEY... make... video games with varying popularity with the internet media...  or something.

There are many examples of arrogance.  Just a couple are spending half the time in multiple press conferences talking about how much $$$ you're pulling in or acting astonishingly insulted when gamers says they're disappointed all they're getting for xmas is Animal Crossing.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Infernal Monkey on August 16, 2009, 09:56:04 PM
LOL CRYBABY 'ARTICLES'.

REMEMBER WHEN RICK DID THAT? LOL! PSP GONNA BEAT DAT DS COZ GRAPHICS *FRONT PAGE ARTICLE*

LOL AT D AVERAGE. TRY PLAYING VIDEO GAMES FOR A CHANGE INSTEAD OF BAWWWW'ING.

(http://i26.tinypic.com/2ljjhnk.jpg)

LOL NINTENDO NEEDS TO STFU WHERE'S MY PAYCHECK!!!!!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on August 16, 2009, 10:09:19 PM
Quote
There are many examples of arrogance.  Just a couple are spending half the time in multiple press conferences talking about how much $$$ you're pulling in or acting astonishingly insulted when gamers says they're disappointed all they're getting for xmas is Animal Crossing.

Business-related shows are business-related.  And considering everybody and their brother kept predicting that Nintendo was going to leave the market and "go 3rd party," a little reassurance to investors requires repeated claims of sales superiority, which seems to have no effect as most third parties and press sites will jam their fingers into their ears and "la-la-la-la-la!"

And I would have been taken aback too at the "backlash" of making a sequel to the popular Animal Crossing series only to have people email you how you are "abandoning the hardcore" for the 3894278th time that year, completely ignoring other games like, say WarioLand and releases earlier in the year like Mario Kart and SSBB.  The article is right in that a lot of hardcore games who own Wiis really should be grateful Nintendo doesn't take the freakish groans and outbursts of the more vocal and rude of their members seriously and continue to make games like Metroid and Mario Galaxy 2 and a new Zelda and Pikmin and such.  Because for all this vocal diarrhea that they have to put up with, it's a wonder they still make those games at all.

Edit: And Ferny wins this phase of the thread.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on August 17, 2009, 12:01:35 AM
Why is Nintendo's lineup so poor? Because they can't make a diverse console library all by themselves! They try to push the console into as many households as possible and get people with varying interests on the system so that third parties can make money with games on the system. The third parties are simply refusing to work with the Wii, possibly because they are afraid of money or something, so the system has a pretty sparse library when compared with a system that has dozens of companies making games for it instead of only one.

Italics are his, the word that was blocked because we can't say, is mine.

These forums have a selective censoring system, every user can pick whether he wants cuss language to be censored. Because of that we're allowed to use profanity as much as we want (but don't half-censor it because then the filter can't recognize it).

Just a couple are spending half the time in multiple press conferences talking about how much $$$ you're pulling in

Remember gamers aren't the only people they're talking to in those conferences, Nintendo is publicly traded and needs to talk to investors just as much as gamers.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 17, 2009, 12:48:16 AM
Gamers much less because these shows are supposed to be filled with Press, and press aren't exactly gamers just a selected few elite Industry Puppets.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on August 17, 2009, 11:00:44 AM
Third parties refusing to develop on Nintendo systems started with the N64, and reared it's ugly head with the GCN. Both had some legit reasons as to why they didn't make games for them.

Wii, not so much. Okay, so it isn't HD, but most developers have forgotten it takes CREATIVITY to develop games. If Nintendo had to use their creativity to please the 360/PS3, they wouldn't get to far, at all.

If that happened, I would give up on video games forever.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 17, 2009, 11:15:27 AM
We'll swear on the grave of the Capcom 5 together.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 17, 2009, 09:09:26 PM
Gloating about how much $$ you're making during a press conference isn't telling us anything we don't already know.  Those numbers are already out there.  There's a right way and a wrong way to do it.  The right way, is subtly bringing up numbers to support the DSi after a journalists states its struggled out of the gate.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 17, 2009, 09:14:59 PM
But, they're not talking to us.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on August 17, 2009, 10:23:28 PM
We'll laugh on the grave of the Capcom together.
That sounds a bit better, but the Capcom 5...

IGNORANCE AT IT'S FINEST.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 18, 2009, 02:50:51 AM
Will you defeat the Cappcom and rescue the Princess of Legend?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on August 18, 2009, 09:25:40 AM
Quote
Gloating about how much $$ you're making during a press conference isn't telling us anything we don't already know.  Those numbers are already out there.  There's a right way and a wrong way to do it.  The right way, is subtly bringing up numbers to support the DSi after a journalists states its struggled out of the gate.

In your opinion.  Nitnendo stating that they are, yet again, still making record profits for the industry, despite all rumors of "going third party" or "becoming a hot dog factory," is 100% relevant to the business investors who invest in businesses (Is it sinking in?  I hope so.).  Since they'd never held a press conference where all they DID was gloat about sales, this is a ridiculous strawman issue and a fabrication of "arrogance."  What, is Nintendo supposed to hide the fact that they are wildly successful because it makes their competition and it's fans "feel bad?"  Tough, that's business.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 18, 2009, 07:55:35 PM
Quote
Gloating about how much $$ you're making during a press conference isn't telling us anything we don't already know.  Those numbers are already out there.  There's a right way and a wrong way to do it.  The right way, is subtly bringing up numbers to support the DSi after a journalists states its struggled out of the gate.

In your opinion.  Nitnendo stating that they are, yet again, still making record profits for the industry, despite all rumors of "going third party" or "becoming a hot dog factory," is 100% relevant to the business investors who invest in businesses (Is it sinking in?  I hope so.).  Since they'd never held a press conference where all they DID was gloat about sales, this is a ridiculous strawman issue and a fabrication of "arrogance."  What, is Nintendo supposed to hide the fact that they are wildly successful because it makes their competition and it's fans "feel bad?"  Tough, that's business.

Show me a 30 minute clip of Sony drunk on its own success at E3 during the PS2 dynasty and I'll agree this is industry standard.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 18, 2009, 08:32:47 PM
It didn't really happen because even with a dominating marketshare, Sony was never making money hand over fist like Nintendo is.

But you can find clips of Sony telling consumers "The first 5million will sell without any games" & "You want it, you will go get a 2nd job to afford it..... $599 US dollars!!!"

If that is not gloating about past success, then I don't know what is. That was more than gloating actually, it was Arrogance at it's finest and I haven't seen Nintendo do anything along those lines.

Boasting about Record profits and increased marketshare is what Nintendo needed to do after 2 generations of decreased market share and flat earnings. Investors & Board members need these things spelled out to them in the easiest way to swallow & we just happen to be listening too.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: mac<censored> on August 18, 2009, 08:44:56 PM
Show me a 30 minute clip of Sony drunk on its own success at E3 during the PS2 dynasty and I'll agree this is industry standard.

Are you nuts?  Sony practically defined arrogance in the console industry (I guess they're toeing a slightly more humble line recently, but that's only because they've been smacked, very, very hard).

Remember Kutaragi?  The guy who led SCE for most of its successful years?  He was well known mostly for being hugely, insanely, mind-boggingly, arrogant, to the extent that many even at Sony hated his guts (I know this from friends who worked at SCE in Tokyo); SCE was a bizarre and insular division within the larger company, but hard to control because they made so much money.  In the end, he went too far, and the poor showing of the PS3 gave Sony an opening to get rid of him.

Nintendo seems refreshingly straight-forward and humble compared to all that crap (remember "get a second job to afford a ps3"?).  They certainly are happy to be doing well, but they aren't completely wacko like Sony was.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Djunknown on August 18, 2009, 10:02:29 PM
The fact that Infernal Monkey responded made it worthwhile  ;D

To be fair, the author is an equal (http://www.destructoid.com/sony-needs-to-just-stfu-139130.phtml) opportunity offender (http://www.destructoid.com/how-microsoft-ruined-fun-for-everybody-141220.phtml) as D Average mentioned earlier.

On Sony:

Quote
Sony has conducted itself with an arrogance and smugness that it simply doesn't deserve. We should have been clued in to just how bad Sony's mouth was going to **** the PlayStation 3 when it dragged forth its notoriously awful 2006 E3 press conference. The one where Kaz Hirai shouted "RIIIIIDGE RACER," to a silent audience, and announced the PS3 price point of "599 US Dollars" as if he were doing the world a favor. Before the PlayStation 3 was even given life, Sony had managed to make it memorable for a series of running jokes more than anything else.

Quote
Then there are just the generally inane and pathetic things that Sony executives have said over the years. How about the time Kaz Hirai said that Sony was still the "official" industry leader? Sure, it sounds delusional, but he certainly backed up his claim ... by pretending that Nintendo didn't exist and ignoring Microsoft completely:

On Microsoft:

Quote
The most important bit of baggage is one we all know about by now, the fact that the Xbox 360 is a technical piece of ****, as far as hardware goes. Not even mentioning the red ring of death, the Xbox 360 is home to all manner of technical errors and random crashes. Every major update seems to bring with it a fresh slew of reports from gamers who now have a glorified brick sitting underneath their televisions. Be it red rings, E74 errors, or any other number of things that could go wrong, Xbox 360 ownership has been ruled by one dominant emotion -- fear.

Italics his. Our own board (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=29069.0) has its horror stories...

Quote
The Xbox 360 platform apparently revels in its own greed, rubbing it in the faces of consumers. Nothing makes that more clear than the fact that Xbox Live is apparently ad supported, even though gamers are charged a subscription fee for the privilege of playing games online.

Quote
Microsoft has made it clear that it wants to be as mainstream as Nintendo, but has given no indication that it knows how to do it, instead trying to awkwardly reach out to a market Nintendo cornered, while alienating the market MS already has.

In short, it sounds like its the typical ZOMG teh non-gamerz are $#@(*%# gaming for us argument!

Yay for filtering!

Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on August 19, 2009, 11:05:31 AM
@ mac<censored>:I would love to hear those stories.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 19, 2009, 05:04:35 PM
Show me a 30 minute clip of Sony drunk on its own success at E3 during the PS2 dynasty and I'll agree this is industry standard.

Are you nuts?  Sony practically defined arrogance in the console industry (I guess they're toeing a slightly more humble line recently, but that's only because they've been smacked, very, very hard).

Remember Kutaragi?  The guy who led SCE for most of its successful years?  He was well known mostly for being hugely, insanely, mind-boggingly, arrogant, to the extent that many even at Sony hated his guts (I know this from friends who worked at SCE in Tokyo); SCE was a bizarre and insular division within the larger company, but hard to control because they made so much money.  In the end, he went too far, and the poor showing of the PS3 gave Sony an opening to get rid of him.

Nintendo seems refreshingly straight-forward and humble compared to all that crap (remember "get a second job to afford a ps3"?).  They certainly are happy to be doing well, but they aren't completely wacko like Sony was.


Yes.  Sony has said a lot of stupid arrogant things.  Everyone does.  But putting together a huge highlight reel of your console on shows like The View and then going on and on for 30 minutes about how you're kicking everyone's ass, and how gaming with a controller is for retards is a bit off putting.  Especially given the fact that many Wii gamers favorite games still use traditional controls methods.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on August 19, 2009, 05:17:42 PM
Show me a 30 minute clip of Sony drunk on its own success at E3 during the PS2 dynasty and I'll agree this is industry standard.

Are you nuts?  Sony practically defined arrogance in the console industry (I guess they're toeing a slightly more humble line recently, but that's only because they've been smacked, very, very hard).

Remember Kutaragi?  The guy who led SCE for most of its successful years?  He was well known mostly for being hugely, insanely, mind-boggingly, arrogant, to the extent that many even at Sony hated his guts (I know this from friends who worked at SCE in Tokyo); SCE was a bizarre and insular division within the larger company, but hard to control because they made so much money.  In the end, he went too far, and the poor showing of the PS3 gave Sony an opening to get rid of him.

Nintendo seems refreshingly straight-forward and humble compared to all that crap (remember "get a second job to afford a ps3"?).  They certainly are happy to be doing well, but they aren't completely wacko like Sony was.


Yes.  Sony has said a lot of stupid arrogant things.  Everyone does.  But putting together a huge highlight reel of your console on shows like The View and then going on and on for 30 minutes about how you're kicking everyone's ass, and how gaming with a controller is for retards is a bit off putting.  Especially given the fact that many Wii gamers favorite games still use traditional controls methods.

I don't suppose you have a link to exactly what you're referencing?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on August 19, 2009, 05:19:13 PM
Quote
Yes.  Sony has said a lot of stupid arrogant things.  Everyone does.  But putting together a huge highlight reel of your console on shows like The View and then going on and on for 30 minutes about how you're kicking everyone's ass, and how gaming with a controller is for retards is a bit off putting.  Especially given the fact that many Wii gamers favorite games still use traditional controls methods.

That's not even equivalent on any plane.

Even if your summarization of 30 minutes of a Nintendo press conference is true (which it probably isn't, I'm sure they didn't say "Controllers are for Retards, especially D_Average.  What a stupid idiot he, in particular, is.  We hate him and pray for his fiery death.  D_Average?  I must say LOL.  That must have been his reading comprehension grade.  Again, I am compelled to say LOL."  That's probably you taking offense at something like "Only Nintendo offers these new advanced control methods" or something.) it does NOT COMPARE to Sony literally saying that 5 million PS3's will sell without software, or people should work two jobs to buy a PS3, or Making an update for the PSP download-only, with no UMD drive for current fans who actually buy their games, and INCREASING the price of out-dated 2004 technology to $250.

That sort of crap is NOT EQUIVALENT to Nintendo talking about sales figures at a business press conferences  (Please tell me you understand now.  Business?  E3 is a Business Trade Show?  Sales figures?  Everybody talks about them.   Business?  Investors?  Investments?  Capitalism?  Is it getting through?  Please, PLEASE say yes.)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Invincible Donkey Kong on August 19, 2009, 05:23:55 PM
The second E is for Entertainment. I am not entertained by pie charts.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on August 19, 2009, 05:26:00 PM
The last E is for Exposition, which will always be business, period.  It's not a convention.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 19, 2009, 05:53:34 PM
I'm currently building a brick wall for all of you to talk to just incase D Average ever decides to stop responding.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on August 19, 2009, 06:02:37 PM
LOL Truly.  It's just something he DOESN'T understand about it and is willing to fabricate this "arrogance" just to fulfill a media "narrative" instead of a media "truth."  That narrative being "Popular company gets arrogant and falls," which is the prophecy he is trying to fulfill and to do that he's looking for anything considered "arrogant."

It's really tiresome and this record seems to be a little broken, so I wish he'd change it or stop playing it.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 19, 2009, 09:51:38 PM
LOL Truly.  It's just something he DOESN'T understand about it and is willing to fabricate this "arrogance" just to fulfill a media "narrative" instead of a media "truth."  That narrative being "Popular company gets arrogant and falls," which is the prophecy he is trying to fulfill and to do that he's looking for anything considered "arrogant."

It's really tiresome and this record seems to be a little broken, so I wish he'd change it or stop playing it.

Dude.  Ask your self this.  Why is it so hard for you to admit Nintendo is arrogant right now?  I can.  I've owned every major console by them and I have no problem critizing them.  Just as I have no problem criticizing Sony or Pizza Hut.  The whole point of the original article was that Nintendo is annoying as hell right now in the fact that they are not delivering that goods we want while pretending they are and constantly reminding gamers how well their systems are selling.  This is great news for investors but gamers could care less.  Knowing that Wii Play is in the top ten doesn't make that broken "game" any more fun.  Its really that simple.  I know I'm not the only one on this board who spends more time with their 360 and/or PS3 simply because Nintendo's lineup over the last 18 months has been less than steller.

Looking at your posts here and your last few posts today on other threads it seems pretty clear you're just another Nintendo Apologist.  Unless you're getting paid for this gig as a two bit shill, why do you spend so much energy spinning stories in Nintendo's favor?  They are a video game company.  Its perfectly acceptable to take shots at them while enjoying the games that interest you.  This is what they do on Radio Free Nintendo.  Its really ok.

Continue down this road, and you'll end up with a strong case of objectum sexuality like that hack Sean Malstrom and Jack from Infendo.  Hell, you probably are Jack and Sean.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: RABicle on August 19, 2009, 11:03:13 PM
They're not reminding gamers how well things are going, Nintendo's only direct communication with the market is through advertising, where they rarely mention words like "best selling". Press events, industry conferences, these are places that in most other industries are not of interest to consumers. I can guarantee that at a consumer based event, like PAX, NOA won't be rattling off sales numbers, they'll have game demos out. It is a true anomoly that we care enough to watch the live feeds and get these raw twitter feeds of people on the ground. The majority of people, hell the majority of gamers, don't have any interest in this. We've been exposed to the evil capitalist underbelly of Nintendo but we're free to look away at anytime.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Berto2K on August 19, 2009, 11:07:08 PM
They're not reminding gamers how well things are going, Nintendo's only direct communication with the market is through advertising, where they rarely mention words like "best selling". Press events, industry conferences, these are places that in most other industries are not of interest to consumers. I can guarantee that at a consumer based event, like PAX, NOA won't be rattling off sales numbers, they'll have game demos out. It is a true anomoly that we care enough to watch the live feeds and get these raw twitter feeds of people on the ground. The majority of people, hell the majority of gamers, don't have any interest in this. We've been exposed to the evil capitalist underbelly of Nintendo but we're free to look away at anytime.
+1
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 19, 2009, 11:22:07 PM
(http://i29.tinypic.com/167tuvc.jpg)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: EasyCure on August 20, 2009, 05:37:50 AM
Can someone animate a GIF of Mario jumping up to hit a brick block and hemorrhaging? That'd probably be more appropriate..

RAB said it best by the way, though Deg has a good argument as well. Personally, I don't see this as arrogance at all because I understand that E3 is a BUSINESS TRADE SHOW and not a public gaming convention. Sure its exciting because we all know new games get announced at this type of thing but you gotta take the good with the bad and thats usually business talk. Anyone that thinks otherwise is probably like the type of person that sees a celebrity across the street having dinner, runs over and asks for an autograph, causes a scene then goes around calling the guy a snob because he didn't get an autograph or a picture with him.

Didn't Nintendo do piecharts and **** even during the GC era to show they were still making profit despite being in "3rd place"? Why do you think they'd do that by the way? Oh thats right, so investors can see there is still money to be made with them. They're just doing the same thing any business does, at a business event, so why get pissy cuz you had false expectations of what would happen at a trade show?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Nick DiMola on August 20, 2009, 06:15:57 AM
RABicle is exactly right. Having been to E3, it was obvious that much of the conference is dedicated to standard industry conference type stuff. As a bystander all you really see are the parts that the gaming industry is interested in, thus making it appear as something it is not.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: EasyCure on August 20, 2009, 06:43:32 AM
RABicle is exactly right. Having been to E3, it was obvious that much of the conference is dedicated to standard industry conference type stuff. As a bystander all you really see are the parts that the gaming industry is interested in, thus making it appear as something it is not.

See, now you've heard it from an attendee themselves. Not sure how E3 ballooned into this major event, but man i wish it were scaled back.. again.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 20, 2009, 07:13:10 AM
RABicle is exactly right. Having been to E3, it was obvious that much of the conference is dedicated to standard industry conference type stuff. As a bystander all you really see are the parts that the gaming industry is interested in, thus making it appear as something it is not.

See, now you've heard it from an attendee themselves. Not sure how E3 ballooned into this major event, but man i wish it were scaled back.. again.

They tried that already. They tried to scale it back because it was becoming too much about what the fanboys(and their publications of choice) wanted to see instead of industry insiders making contacts and getting to see each others work. They down-sized and did invite only events, even split it up into smaller venues to keep out the Gamestop employees and random show attendees, but E3 almost died.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on August 20, 2009, 09:32:09 AM
E3 almost died, but from what the gaming media has shown us, it would've buried E3 in a massive crater.

RABicle is exactly right. Having been to E3, it was obvious that much of the conference is dedicated to standard industry conference type stuff. As a bystander all you really see are the parts that the gaming industry is interested in, thus making it appear as something it is not.
I think it's hilarious we're complaining about a business portion of a conference.
(http://i29.tinypic.com/167tuvc.jpg)
Win.
 
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Nick DiMola on August 20, 2009, 10:34:01 AM
I wasn't complaining, I was explaining. I love the business side of the convention and I thought it was interesting to see the behind-closed-doors aspect of the industry in person.

D_Average seems to think it's odd that Nintendo would boast numbers, but nearly everyone who was actually in Club Nokia for Nintendo's Press Conference were investors/business people, not journalists. The entire downstairs portion in front of the stage was reserved for them. Us journalists lucky enough to be in the theater (very few) were relegated to the upper balcony. Most journalists were stuck watching it from a different building on giant TV screens.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on August 20, 2009, 10:37:58 AM
Oh, really? That's insightful. I find it hard to tell the difference between an insightful paragraph and whining, but I blame the casual crap and Highly Dramatic generation for that.

Still think the brick wall needs something to it.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on August 20, 2009, 10:52:17 AM
When you turn HD into an acronym referring to people who complain too much...

you complain too much.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: EasyCure on August 20, 2009, 11:08:30 AM
RABicle is exactly right. Having been to E3, it was obvious that much of the conference is dedicated to standard industry conference type stuff. As a bystander all you really see are the parts that the gaming industry is interested in, thus making it appear as something it is not.

See, now you've heard it from an attendee themselves. Not sure how E3 ballooned into this major event, but man i wish it were scaled back.. again.

They tried that already. They tried to scale it back because it was becoming too much about what the fanboys(and their publications of choice) wanted to see instead of industry insiders making contacts and getting to see each others work. They down-sized and did invite only events, even split it up into smaller venues to keep out the Gamestop employees and random show attendees, but E3 almost died.

Well maybe it'd be for the best if it died. This way a new trade show can take its places thats strictly business, and a new gaming convention can go up and be heralded as the "NEW" "E3". Maybe then some people will stop complaining when sales figures are discussed, since they won't hear about 'em.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 20, 2009, 11:15:44 AM
let them cry, let them bitch, let them complain. Just let them do whatever they want, as long as it's on the other side of that brick wall.

Fact: E3 isn't for us.
If some people want to complain that E3 isn't giving them enough of what they want, then they are at the wrong event. Just because E3 Insiders have been generous enough to let us participate(through media outlets) because of our ravenous interest in any news about any game that we could get our hands on, doesn't make E3 anymore for us that it was originally intended to be.

So let those that forget where we stand, sit on the other side of the wall.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 20, 2009, 12:01:10 PM
Way to strawman my argument guys. Is this what you must do to defend your lover?  Pathetic.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on August 20, 2009, 12:12:59 PM
let them cry, let them bitch, let them complain. Just let them do whatever they want, as long as it's on the other side of that brick wall.

Fact: E3 isn't for us.
If some people want to complain that E3 isn't giving them enough of what they want, then they are at the wrong even. Just because E3 Insiders have been generous enough to let us participate(through media outlets) because of our ravenous interest in any news about any game that we could get our hands on, doesn't make E3 anymore for us that it was originally intended to be.

So let those that forget where we stand, sit on the other side of the wall.

Well, if E3 isn't for us (and there's certainly a valid argument made there), what is?  There are other conventions out there (PAX, Comic-con, etc.), but the industry hasn't made any effort to establish or promote a public-centric gaming convention equivalent of E3 where we can just revel in how awesome videogames are and have the big announcements, etc.  I just have to wonder what the point of having a big convention devoted to business is when you can just hold a stockholder's meeting/conference and get nearly the same result: bragging about sales numbers, stating your plans as a company for the future, and unveiling your big money-growing products for the future.  And that would all be targeted at the people who need to see such things, and would be viewed by the people who care about such things the most.

But you look at E3, and it tries to play it both ways and neither seems to work well with the other.  We the public don't generally care about sales figures and whatnot, but we watch E3 to see the unveiling of the next line of cool games we want to play.  The people there to see what they need to invest in don't care about all the theatrics and spectacle, so why have them there when E3 is intended for them and not us?  I have to agree with an above poster that the conference needs to be split in two, one catering to the public and one the private.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 20, 2009, 01:07:57 PM
E3 is designed for the industry to come together all at one event and share their products and vision with each other. Having a stock holder meeting is very limited in scope and interaction and wouldn't work the same. That's how they downsized it to be like a few years back. It didn't work.

All the booth are set up so that Developers and Publishers can see what the competition is working on so they can trade ideas, collaborate on projects or just get inspired for their next product. Also most of the industry people are gamers themselves and fans of other peoples work, so they want to play these games just as much as we do.

E3 is an industry event that they let the gaming public into for better or for worse. The theatrics are to entertain themselves and to draw more press as these conferences aren't free to attend. They have to pay for space, pay for their set up, and pay for their employees to be there. The theatrics are to make sure they "journalist" pay attention to their booth and cover as many of their games as possible in whatever publication it is they work for. That is how they recoup some of the cost is through the free advertising which leads to product awareness and then more game sales.

When you separate everything into a bunch of mini conferences spread out allover the city, that complicates things and everything becomes a hassle. Ideas aren't being shared and the press is having to work harder to cover everything they were sent there to cover.

Why does Nintendo hold a big conference and talk about sales numbers mixed in with the game announcements and ideas they have for where they are headed in the future?
Because not only are they talking to their investors (which they have private stock holder meeting with) but to all the publishers and developers out there that are wondering why they should bother with a Nintendo console, what kind of ideas there are for games on the Nintendo consoles, how Nintendo is supporting their own console, and to somehow make this whole presentation entertaining in the process.

I'm gonna stop typing here since I'm losing my train of thought and this post is already much longer than I anticipated it being.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on August 20, 2009, 01:27:49 PM
The thing is, we already have a conference dedicated to the whole "sharing of ideas" and whatnot: the Game Developer Conference (GDC).  Why do we need E3 for that as well, especially when it's only a few months after it right now.?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Caffeinated Cheese on August 20, 2009, 01:35:54 PM
I think they made some mistakes this year, and some last year, and a large amount of mistakes piled up all the years before:

E3 was meant for two things, if what I've read about it's history is correct:  The media to pick up all that's new and unfolding in the electronic entertainment industry, and for video game retailers to decide and order merchandise for their stores in bulk, as information appears on the merchandise, specifically the Fall and Winter hardware and software.

I've been to a couple of trade shows before, nothing near the scale of E3, though interestingly enough, one in the same place PAX is now held, but for medicine.  I can see that at the core, the idea behind the two is supposed to be the same, but what you see with E3 doesn't exactly do it's duty:

Imagine you're at the supermarket, and all the Coke products are in one area.  Now, all the Pepsi is right by it, in another.  Pringles has a spot, so does Prego, so does Heinz, so does pretty much every brand name.  Now, imagine you're buying almost all the groceries you'll need for a year, and Coke wants you to sign up (at a slightly lower, but noticeable rate) to drink a certain about of their soda from now until the end of the year.  Pepsi wants the same thing.  All of the sections in the grocery store want you to do that.  So they do whatever it takes to get your attention, in hopes it'll phase your choices.  They offer free samples, have games with prizes, give away popcorn, whatever it takes to get their audience's attention, to order their product in mass numbers.

That's what I'd describe a tradeshow as, in my experience.  Only, E3 has a few detractors:  Due to the nature of the industry, people get excited about new news, and so reporters are necessary.  In one way, you kill two birds with one stone by attracting reporters and the people who sell the actual retail product at once.  On the other hand, the salesman is trying to figure out a specific number of units to pick up, while the reporter is trying to capture more and more buzz about what's going on.  How do you figure out which is more important?  It's too tough to manage.

What should be done?  Perhaps the event should have two sections:  A show section and a trade section.  The show section would have demo units, lines, and opportunities to watch video and play demos of games.  One Day 1 and 2, retailers have access to this section.  On days 3 and 4, reporters do.  Then, the second section would be the trade section, and would offer similar service to both groups.  Reporters begin here, and can give interviews, ask questions, and watch developers and publishers show off particular "niche" moments of their games, things that couldn't easily be done in a video or demo.  Then, retailers come in, and they can ask questions, barter prices, watch those niche moments, and decide what to order, ultimately.

This allows the media a chance to get all the ooohing and aaahing without being too bothered by retailers, and the retailers a chance to really figure things out in what could be an efficient process.  You'll have all the space and all the opportunity that's had the way things are now, but on the "Trade" section, retailers have to put some effort into seeking out what they liked or wanted to know more about the day before.

Of course, I don't know much about the trade part of the show at E3, as it stands, but if mixing the two doesn't work, separating them, but maintaining the look, feel, and spectacle of E3 shouldn't be too tough, I wouldn't think.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 20, 2009, 01:44:42 PM
The thing is, we already have a conference dedicated to the whole "sharing of ideas" and whatnot: the Game Developer Conference (GDC).  Why do we need E3 for that as well, especially when it's only a few months after it right now.?

It's a big industry....? & E3 does allow for big booths and some public interaction, but it's not for the public. The Public interaction and need to please is why E3 got too big in the first place. Bigger booths were needed to draw more attention, which meant companies were spending so much on their booth to out-do the next guy so they could attract the attention of the fanboys that the whole expo was losing focus of why everyone was there to begin with.

I don't know all the specifics and details, but the E3 of today is alot different than what it was intended to be.

edit: Thanx thatguy. I knew I forgot someone. The Retailers, that's how all the gamestop employees started getting in. It's a Developer Publisher Retailer event. vs GDC being just for the Developer/Publishers.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Caffeinated Cheese on August 20, 2009, 01:54:18 PM
Actually, BNM, the big booths and flash to draw attention is something that would be pretty static, regardless of the public and the media's interaction.  We're constantly reminded how little, private events with media invited can actually work better to share information about a game.  The big booths and fanfare probably originated in an attempt to draw in buyers, to tell the truth.  Both tradeshows I've been to have tried using bigger booths, more machines, TVs, prizes, games, freebies, and whatnot to attract buyers, and there was virtually no press at the event.

The ESA's job should really be to regulate that, and make things more or less fair, so that a developer who sells an average of $X gets fanfare proportional to that amount.  That's why I suggest slowing things down, so everyone gets a chance to try to sell (though the amount of time should be proportionate to the amount of product being pushed,) but how things are now, things become overlooked.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on August 20, 2009, 07:44:03 PM
Quote
Dude.  Ask your self this.  Why is it so hard for you to admit Nintendo is arrogant right now?  I can.  I've owned every major console by them and I have no problem critizing them.  Just as I have no problem criticizing Sony or Pizza Hut.

Immaterial to discussion.  Your assumptions of arrogance do not translate to actual arrogance, nor does your presumption of fact translate into actual fact.

Quote
The whole point of the original article was that Nintendo is annoying as hell right now in the fact that they are not delivering that goods we want while pretending they are and constantly reminding gamers how well their systems are selling.  This is great news for investors but gamers could care less. 

Who the hell's "we" dude?  Just because some people play video games and use the internet doesn't mean they are all one lumped group.  Nintendo HAS been "delivering" the "goods" to the majority of gamers this generation as evidenced by their high software and hardware sales, on both the DS and Wii.  And they haven't "abandoned the hardcore," no matter what this retarded press hysteria says about it.  And yeah they were all reminding gamers how well they were selling at E3.  BUT THEY WERE ALSO REMINDING INVESTORS AND BUSINESS RELATED PEOPLE, WHO ARE ALSO AT E3. (I am typing in all caps, because I hope the third time is the charm and you will understand it this time.)

Quote
Knowing that Wii Play is in the top ten doesn't make that broken "game" any more fun.  Its really that simple.  I know I'm not the only one on this board who spends more time with their 360 and/or PS3 simply because Nintendo's lineup over the last 18 months has been less than steller.

This is also immaterial to the discussion, because it has nothing to do with your assertion of "arrogance," and is merely your console preferences and an appeal to numbers.  And since that's the case:
(http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/for_forums/call_someone_who_cares.jpg)

Quote
Looking at your posts here and your last few posts today on other threads it seems pretty clear you're just another Nintendo Apologist.  Unless you're getting paid for this gig as a two bit shill, why do you spend so much energy spinning stories in Nintendo's favor?

Ad hominem.

Quote
They are a video game company.  Its perfectly acceptable to take shots at them while enjoying the games that interest you.  This is what they do on Radio Free Nintendo.  Its really ok.

So?  If they say this, that Nintendo is "arrogant" because they talk about sales numbers at Business-related trade shows (this is an extra attempt.  Please, PLEASE understand this), then they are wrong and no matter how many times or how many people said it.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments)

Quote
Continue down this road, and you'll end up with a strong case of objectum sexuality like that hack Sean Malstrom and Jack from Infendo.  Hell, you probably are Jack and Sean.

Objectum Sexuality?  Look if you are going to dabble in the Psychological field, please don't just throw terms around like you just googled them.  It makes you look like a big ass who has no idea what he's talking about.  Objectum Sexuality has nothing to do with Fan Loyalty or Bandwagon effect or BIRGing and CORFing, which are all relevant to this case.  However it says a lot about your state of mind that you thought of Objectum Sexuality first.  Whatever floats your boat I guess.

Quote
Way to strawman my argument guys. Is this what you must do to defend your lover?  Pathetic.

It's very rare to see on the internet, but D Average has actually stumbled upon a textbook case of
(http://random.flamecore.com/filez/633632290549165732-irony.jpg)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 20, 2009, 09:07:49 PM
Your post looks nice, but it just doesn't work.  First off, I never said E3 shouldn't be used to communicate success.  I simply stated the way  Nintendo communicated success at E3 is arrogant.  This is just one example from many I could choose from to explain why I believe Nintendo has became arrogant again (as they were during the N64 era).  In order to defend your boyfriend, you changed my argument to "Nintedo is arrogant because they talked about money at E3." 

Second, you started with the ad hominems, so I threw a couple back.  So now you're self righteous all of the sudden?  Girl please.  Irony or hypocrite, take your pick.

As far as objectum sexuality, thats a term I've known well for a long time (just because you had to Google it, doesn't mean the rest of us did).  Its sounds like you're having trouble understanding it.  Its when a seemingly normal person falls in love with inadament objects.  Given the way you ruthlessly defend Nintendo on every thread, its quite plausable to assume you have such a loving/personal relationship with Nintedo products, which are by definition, "inadament objects", get it???

But I'm gong to stop here.  No matter what I say, nothing will change your mind as you are the gaming equivalent of Fred Phelps.  Sure, there are others in your flock, who think the same way, waggling together in one happy circle.  But its a small circle.  A lunatic-fringe-conspiracy-obsessed segment of the gaming population who will fight to the death over their corporation of choice, while the rest of us enjoy all systems and rip on them equally (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/3-Console-Rundown).
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on August 20, 2009, 10:13:11 PM
Quote
Your post looks nice, but it just doesn't work.  First off, I never said E3 shouldn't be used to communicate success.  I simply stated the way  Nintendo communicated success at E3 is arrogant.  This is just one example from many I could choose from to explain why I believe Nintendo has became arrogant again (as they were during the N64 era).  In order to defend your boyfriend, you changed my argument to "Nintedo is arrogant because they talked about money at E3."

Blah blah, nothing new, more insults.

Quote
Second, you started with the ad hominems, so I threw a couple back.  So now you're self righteous all of the sudden?  Girl please.  Irony or hypocrite, take your pick.

Que?  I hope you don't mean my repeated pleas for you to understand that E3 is a business-related show.  Or where I made a hypothetical Nintendo press conference insult you personally as an exaggerated example of the "offense" taken by press shows that talk about sales numbers for a bit and mention that they have motion controls.  Because otherwise, I've treated your arguments with more respect than they really deserve.

Quote
As far as objectum sexuality, thats a term I've known well for a long time

Yeah I'll bet.

Quote
Its sounds like you're having trouble understanding it.  Its when a seemingly normal person falls in love with inadament objects.  Given the way you ruthlessly defend Nintendo on every thread, its quite plausable to assume you have such a loving/personal relationship with Nintedo products, which are by definition, "inadament objects", get it???

Look, piss-ant, I'm getting a BA in Psychology and working on a Master's Degree.  You have no idea what you are talking about.  "Inadement" object?  I'm sure you mean inanimate object.  The object in question would be a Wii or a DS and that would be the target of the sexual energies.  Liking Nintendo... as a company, would not be Objectum Sexuality.  Because they are a company, a group, a fandom, a development team, an ideal, and an idea.  Not an actual object, like a Wii, or a stone, or a bridge, of which the relevancy of whether Nintendo is involved is not a factor.

Quote
But I'm gong to stop here.  No matter what I say, nothing will change your mind as you are the gaming equivalent of Fred Phelps.  Sure, there are others in your flock, who think the same way, waggling together in one happy circle.  But its a small circle.  A lunatic-fringe-conspiracy-obsessed segment of the gaming population who will fight to the death over their corporation of choice, while the rest of us enjoy all systems and rip on them equally.

(http://i26.tinypic.com/2ljjhnk.jpg)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Infernal Monkey on August 20, 2009, 10:17:43 PM
(http://i32.tinypic.com/b4b5mv.jpg)

(http://i32.tinypic.com/1zq4hlu.jpg)

There there.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on August 20, 2009, 10:19:30 PM
Come here to see more arguments, and Infernal drops this.

Infernal, you win.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on August 20, 2009, 10:33:32 PM
Well Arguments should be over.  That lunatic said he'd leave, so I'd hate for him to be a hypocrite and post again.

In fact, I can even link this back to the topic by saying he's a victim of believing a "media narrative," which is a set story that all you need to do is fill in the nouns and go, like Mad Libs. So he bought into the idea that "pride goeth before a fall" and that Company X will get successful, get arrogant, and fall, just because that's the "media narrative" of Sony with the PS3 and Nintendo with the N64 (he even mentions that.)  Yet he became more unraveled as his ideas of "arrogance" didn't mesh with the general public's, and this created cognitive dissonance where the new data conflicted with his presumptions.  He, then, had to choose between changing his beliefs or continuing to believe this "media narrative." He chose the latter which resulted in the application of insults as defense mechanisms and appeals to higher authority (escapistmagazine) as a technique of neutralization for being wrong.  (BTW, this is bonafide Psychology work, D Average, not throwing words around without understanding them.)

And this could be laid at the video game media's feet for chasing media narratives instead of just reporting the objective news.  He's just another unfortunate soul on the internet.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on August 21, 2009, 09:46:06 AM
Well, that's the internet, stupidity thrives in this god-forsaken realm.

I would one day like to analyze Matt's review of Wii Music, but I don't think I have the stomach to handle outright stupidity.

And that includes his Sonic and the Black Knight review.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on August 21, 2009, 11:19:29 AM
(http://i29.tinypic.com/167tuvc.jpg)

I think the wall would provide a much more stimulating conversation than anyone in the internet...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on August 21, 2009, 10:38:20 PM
The brick wall is incapable of signing onto the NWR forums.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on August 22, 2009, 01:52:46 AM
(http://i29.tinypic.com/167tuvc.jpg)

I think the wall would provide a much more stimulating conversation than anyone in the internet...

Well they do say the most complex conversations are the ones you have with yourself.

I actually miss that clown D_Average.  I hope he left the whole forum instead of just this thread.  He said he was already at two other communities, Malstrom's forum and Infendo, and got kicked out of both, and he thinks we're the kooks, and I'm apparently your leader.  But yeah, I miss him already.  By now he would have gone the full Godwin and called me the "Wii Hitler" or "Reggie's Lapdog" or something and continued to dodge the questions and points, and googled up some more psych terms and insults to toss around as they rattled around his head, hoping one would strike his walnut of a brain and make sense.

Oh shoot, the topic.  Uhhh... Five bucks says if the PS3 outsells the Wii on the next NPD, There will suddenly be a big deal made about it, like when the Ps3 sold more than the Wii for like 3 weeks in Japan and went back to sub-GC levels.  Another "media narrative," see?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: mac<censored> on August 22, 2009, 02:32:33 AM
Uhhh... Five bucks says if the PS3 outsells the Wii on the next NPD

I sure hope it does!  If big-pricedrop + nicer/smaller/hardware + bigger-disk combined doesn't sell PS3s, there's basically no hope at all for Sony...

(personally, I just wanted to see them humbled a bit, not destroyed utterly)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on August 22, 2009, 04:27:19 AM
It'll be a temporary boost but to keep sales up they need GAMES.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Pandareus on August 22, 2009, 06:30:26 AM
It does have games, though, it's just that for some reason people are clueless about them.

Personally, I found Sucker Puch overrated back on the PS2, but Infamous is very, very, very good. And I was fed up with the Ratchet and Clank "formula" after Going Commando, went into the next-gen version very reluctantly... and basically couldn't stop playing until I had beaten it twice. Then there's the tons of PSN titles.

Of cource, the fact that I don't have a 360 and play the multiplatform releases on PS3 plays into my perception that it has games...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on August 22, 2009, 07:09:51 AM
It does have games, though, it's just that for some reason people are clueless about them.

Or more likely they don't care about the ones that are there.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 22, 2009, 08:15:11 AM
Uhhh... Five bucks says if the PS3 outsells the Wii on the next NPD

I sure hope it does!  If big-pricedrop + nicer/smaller/hardware + bigger-disk combined doesn't sell PS3s, there's basically no hope at all for Sony...

(personally, I just wanted to see them humbled a bit, not destroyed utterly)


Lets hope the Slim does something, because Sony has no where to go but up in Japan at the moment.
Media Create: 8/10 - 8/16

X360 9,162
DSL 7,921
PS3 5,944
PS2 4,907
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on August 22, 2009, 09:37:40 AM
Shouldn't everybody be posting stories about Sony being doomed because the 360 outsold the PS3 for once?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Pandareus on August 22, 2009, 09:39:14 AM
It does have games, though, it's just that for some reason people are clueless about them.

Or more likely they don't care about the ones that are there.
And why don't they care? Because they're clueless about just how good the games really are.  ;)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 22, 2009, 02:57:45 PM
I haven't listened to this yet, but it has generated alot of conversation in other places...

GT Podcast - Invisible Walls
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/episode-71-invisible-walls/54781

enjoy. discuss.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on August 22, 2009, 03:26:47 PM
I haven't listened to this yet, but it has generated alot of conversation in other places...

GT Podcast - Invisible Walls
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/episode-71-invisible-walls/54781

enjoy. discuss.

Yeah, I was going to post about that podcast but decided it wasn't really worth the effort.  They don't say anything that controversial anyway, except that they actually chide people who didn't buy the Conduit as if it was actually a game worth buying.  It's no secret that the gaming media in general is sick of the Wii, which they probably wouldn't be if Nintendo hadn't abandoned the console (from the perspective of a core gamer) to the 3rd parties 1 1/2 years ago with only Sega and a couple others keeping it alive.  This is just further fallout from last year's E3, so it's not surprising.  They'll probably be more favorable to it once Galaxy 2, Metroid other M, and Zelda come out.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Invincible Donkey Kong on August 22, 2009, 05:46:18 PM
I haven't listened to this yet, but it has generated alot of conversation in other places...

GT Podcast - Invisible Walls
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/episode-71-invisible-walls/54781

enjoy. discuss.

Sigworthy:

Quote
Nintendo has dropped to an entry level video game..it's almost like the old you know toy "my first video game console;" that's where Nintendo is right now.

I would sit here and say everyone to stop buying the Wii, but they already have! The NPD report from last month ...the Wii only outsold the 360 by like 20,000 units--like, Nintendo, it's game over bro!

360 is truly about to pass them by.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on August 22, 2009, 06:58:33 PM
More like 50,000 units.

And LOL! More "abandoning the core consumer" bullshit.  Seriously, Yawn.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on August 22, 2009, 07:02:12 PM
More like 50,000 units.

And LOL! More "abandoning the core consumer" bull****.  Seriously, Yawn.

You can't argue with a straight face that Animal Crossing, Wii Music, etc. was marketed at us.  You can make an argument for Wario Land: Shake it but that's just about the only one.  And I didn't say they abandoned "us" in general, an important distinction.  I said they stopped releasing such games 1 1/2 years ago, and the games that will appeal to us are a long ways off.  You can't expect the game enthusiast media to fawn over products like Wii Music for 1 1/2 years.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 22, 2009, 07:04:02 PM
How Pathetic.... They couldn't even get the facts from the NPD report right

NPD July 2009

Wii 252.5K
X360 202.9K

Looks more like a difference of 50k to me, which actually means that Nintendos "my 1st Videogame System" out sold the 360 by 25% in a down economy with a more expensive system. Far cry from Gameover bro.

thats not even looking at software sales.

WII - 4
NDS - 3
360 - 2
PS3 - 1

Nintendo Hardware = 7
Other Hardware = 3

::This post was supposed to happen 2 hours ago. I hate when I type somethig and then walk away only to realize 2 hours later that I never hit "post"::
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Elixir on August 22, 2009, 07:14:30 PM
This is just further fallout from last year's E3, so it's not surprising.  They'll probably be more favorable to it once Galaxy 2, Metroid other M, and Zelda come out.

Not any more favorable than the gaming media has been to Nintendo, well, ever.  It all still narrows down to what is "cool and hip" and no matter how much effort Nintendo puts into creating "hardcore games," Wii Fit and Wii Music will still exist and thus drag Nintendo down.  If Nintendo got rid of those then the gaming media would just come up with another moronic label to follow the descent line behind "kiddy" and "casual."  The real irony is that this generation's obsession with 1080p and meaningless tripe as achievements/trophies has shown how pitiful "gamers" have become.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on August 22, 2009, 07:32:29 PM
This is just further fallout from last year's E3, so it's not surprising.  They'll probably be more favorable to it once Galaxy 2, Metroid other M, and Zelda come out.

Not any more favorable than the gaming media has been to Nintendo, well, ever.  It all still narrows down to what is "cool and hip" and no matter how much effort Nintendo puts into creating "hardcore games," Wii Fit and Wii Music will still exist and thus drag Nintendo down.  If Nintendo got rid of those then the gaming media would just come up with another moronic label to follow the descent line behind "kiddy" and "casual."  The real irony is that this generation's obsession with 1080p and meaningless tripe as achievements/trophies has shown how pitiful "gamers" have become.

There's nothing wrong with 1080p and achievements/trophies in and of themselves.  I find trophies a pretty neat way to entice gamers to replay stuff they've already completed, like just recently when I went back to Prince of Persia to cool down after a straight week of Valkyria Chronicles.  I didn't feel like playing the entire game over again, but I was ok with spending a day or so collecting the remaining trophies and it was fun.  I don't understand the apparent obsession with collecting them (I'll collect them on my first playthrough if it doesn't inconvenience me too much), but they get a lot of undeserved flack.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 22, 2009, 07:35:25 PM
If Nintendo got rid of those then the gaming media would just come up with another moronic label to follow the descent line behind "kiddy" and "casual."
 
All the more reason why I'm glad Nintendo mostly ignores the critics and just continues to do what they do best. Make fun and compelling software while always trying to innovate in the market.

Quote
The real irony is that this generation's obsession with 1080p and meaningless tripe as achievements/trophies has shown how pitiful "gamers" have become.

I got no issues with achievements/trophies/stamps(;)) , but it's hilarious at how many PS3 or 360 gamers have their 1080p box hooked up to a non-HDTV and the ones that do have it hooked up to the right TV aren't even using the correct cables.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Pandareus on August 22, 2009, 08:03:24 PM
I don't understand the apparent obsession with collecting them (I'll collect them on my first playthrough if it doesn't inconvenience me too much), but they get a lot of undeserved flack.

The people who deserve the flack are the ones I hear say they don't feel motivated to pick up, say, a Virtual Console game, or Valkyria Chronicles, or whatever, because of the lack of trophies/achievements.

In and of themselves they're a pretty good idea. It's the people obsessed with them that deserve to be ridiculed.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on August 22, 2009, 08:06:21 PM
Achievements/trophies/stamps are no different then posting your accomplishments on the internet with a photo.

Videos are kind of iffy due to emulator crap. Still, setting your own goals is not that hard when playing a Nintendo game.

I just don't have the time right now. Attempted a Super Mario Bros. 3 score run on Grass Land and, if I remember correctly, got over 600K of points... that was a while ago though.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Elixir on August 22, 2009, 08:13:50 PM
I personally have huge misgivings with achievements, but I was considering (as was mentioned by others before me) those that will refuse to get games based on the idea of achievements, those that use it to stroke their egos, and MS and Sony's condoning (with forced implementation) of said ego-stroking and flag-wagging.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 22, 2009, 08:22:33 PM
Those are the people that play for the Gamer Score, since that seems to set your 1337 status on LIVE.


(1337 = Elite right?)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on August 22, 2009, 08:44:57 PM
Yeah but at this point isn't gamerscore pretty pointless?  I mean, say, as a new 360 user, you will NEVER be able to amount any sort of respectable total compared to the leaders, who mainly rent games to grind the score up anyway.  So what's the point?

I like the way Wii Sports Resort included them, as non-intrusively as possible.  Which is, surprisingly, the same way Smash Bros handles their "achievements" since 1999, via special "awards" for weird tasks handled during the match.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 22, 2009, 08:59:38 PM
But at the same time it would be nice if i could attach my stamps/awards to my Mii that earned them and see all my accomplishments without having to load a game up.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 22, 2009, 09:39:58 PM
The real irony is that this generation's obsession with 1080p and meaningless tripe as achievements/trophies has shown how pitiful "gamers" have become.

I heard there was irony somewhere in this post, but I can't seem to find it.  Help please???


In and of themselves they're a pretty good idea. It's the people obsessed with them that deserve to be ridiculed.

Precisely.  Achievements/Trophies are like a game within a game.  They offer new ways to play your game.  If you don't like them, ignore them.  But at the end of the day, it is a bit silly to obsess over them considering some tasks require nothing more than kissing boys. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNNs0F-8_bY)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on August 22, 2009, 10:14:27 PM
Would you mind cleaning up those quotes so it doesn't look like I wrote them, D_Average?  With all those spaces it's a bit misleading.  Thanks.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 22, 2009, 10:19:08 PM
The real irony is that this generation's obsession with 1080p and meaningless tripe as achievements/trophies has shown how pitiful "gamers" have become.

I heard there was irony somewhere in this post, but I can't seem to find it.  Help please???


In and of themselves they're a pretty good idea. It's the people obsessed with them that deserve to be ridiculed.

Precisely.  Achievements/Trophies are like a game within a game.  They offer new ways to play your game.  If you don't like them, ignore them.  But at the end of the day, it is a bit silly to obsess over them considering some tasks require nothing more than kissing boys. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNNs0F-8_bY)

Would you mind not quoting me as the writer of those statements considering I didn't?

Actually everywhere he quoted you, the quote block is empty. your empty quote bolock is inside of someone elses quote block
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on August 22, 2009, 10:20:24 PM
The real irony is that this generation's obsession with 1080p and meaningless tripe as achievements/trophies has shown how pitiful "gamers" have become.

I heard there was irony somewhere in this post, but I can't seem to find it.  Help please???


In and of themselves they're a pretty good idea. It's the people obsessed with them that deserve to be ridiculed.

Precisely.  Achievements/Trophies are like a game within a game.  They offer new ways to play your game.  If you don't like them, ignore them.  But at the end of the day, it is a bit silly to obsess over them considering some tasks require nothing more than kissing boys. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNNs0F-8_bY)

Would you mind not quoting me as the writer of those statements considering I didn't?

Actually everywhere he quoted you, the quote block is empty. your empty quote bolock is inside of someone elses quote block

Yeah, i actually wanted to delete that post once I saw what the coding was doing, but there doesn't seem to be an option for that here.  it just looks misleading with the blank block quote.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 22, 2009, 10:22:48 PM
Would you mind cleaning up those quotes so it doesn't look like I wrote them, D_Average?  With all those spaces it's a bit misleading.  Thanks.

Sorry about that, fixed!  Didn't even notice, I'll have to double check that point forward.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on August 22, 2009, 11:51:40 PM
Quote
Nintendo has dropped to an entry level video game..it's almost like the old you know toy "my first video game console;" that's where Nintendo is right now.

Be glad Nintendo is doing that job because noone else is and how are we supposed to get new gamers if all games require experience with games already?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Elixir on August 23, 2009, 12:04:27 AM
The real irony is that this generation's obsession with 1080p and meaningless tripe as achievements/trophies has shown how pitiful "gamers" have become.

I heard there was irony somewhere in this post, but I can't seem to find it.  Help please???

Oh, I guess it was not obvious enough.  Or perhaps it was an ill-conceived attempt to be witty on your part.  In either case, my point was that the so-called "hardcore gaming" crowd has their focuses on the aspects of games that matter the least to, well, GAMES.  And with the hardcore separating themselves so obstinately from this new generation of gamers, I find it ironic that they are so quick to label one a "casual" or a "non-gamer" when they easily fulfill that label themselves. 

And before you have a cry about how achievements add content to games, I am talking about those that consider the achievements in a game more important than the game itself, as well as the "point system" that achievements and trophies utilize.  Achievements are nothing more than bloated self-gratification anyway, so why condone spilling your ego unto the masses?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on August 23, 2009, 12:11:18 AM
Ok, I think I have a solid example here, and I don't often buy into that sort of thing: 1up's Metroid Prime Trilogy review.

http://www.1up.com/do/reviewPage?cId=3175681

He gave it a B+, so can anyone read that review and tell me exactly what his problem with this set was that he gave it a B+ besides the games being old?  It seems to me that he praised the games overall, so at the very least it's a poorly-written review.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 23, 2009, 01:00:49 AM
The real irony is that this generation's obsession with 1080p and meaningless tripe as achievements/trophies has shown how pitiful "gamers" have become.

I heard there was irony somewhere in this post, but I can't seem to find it.  Help please???

Oh, I guess it was not obvious enough.  Or perhaps it was an ill-conceived attempt to be witty on your part.  In either case, my point was that the so-called "hardcore gaming" crowd has their focuses on the aspects of games that matter the least to, well, GAMES.  And with the hardcore separating themselves so obstinately from this new generation of gamers, I find it ironic that they are so quick to label one a "casual" or a "non-gamer" when they easily fulfill that label themselves. 

And before you have a cry about how achievements add content to games, I am talking about those that consider the achievements in a game more important than the game itself, as well as the "point system" that achievements and trophies utilize.  Achievements are nothing more than bloated self-gratification anyway, so why condone spilling your ego unto the masses?

I agree with you that labels are silly.  But I don't think there is anything particuarily "ironic" about a gamer wanting fantastic graphics or more reasons to replay a game.  Some people like story, some controls, some a new experience, some just another FPS, and some unique or cutting edge graphics.  For example, racing games are my favorite genre.  There's nothing like flying through the tracks of Burnout and Pacific Rift.  In order for a visceral experience, only the latest and greatest graphics will do.  Going back to most GCN/PS2 racers now is a yawn fest (save Mario Kart and Twisted Metal)  Therefore, top notch hd graphics increase the gaming out of body experience for many people and become a legitimate request.

Back to your first statement though.  If the vast majority of "hardcore gamers" praising hd graphics, actually played their respective 360/PS3 on a 15 year old CRT, well, that would be ironic.  Almost as ironic as gamers who whine about gamerscore and long for the days of old.  Days where the score chase was alive and well in arcades across the world.  Donkey Kong anyone?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on August 23, 2009, 01:08:42 AM
The problem is when they rate the graphics and archievements higher than the actual game.

Gamerscore is different from highscores because highscores are a measure of skill, gamerscores are a measure of buying power first and foremost.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 23, 2009, 01:53:46 AM
The problem is when they rate the graphics and archievements higher than the actual game.

Gamerscore is different from highscores because highscores are a measure of skill, gamerscores are a measure of time and resources.

fixed
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on August 23, 2009, 02:06:03 AM
Would you call Trophies the most pure interpretation of the concept, then?  Yeah, you technically have "levels" that you gain for your Online ID as you obtain trophies, but no one gives a damn about that because the leveling system is fairly abstract compared to the gamerscore.  Without the direct numerical comparison of the gamerscore, you pretty much just obtain trophies if you want to show you did something.  You can compare your trophies with your friends to see if they got them as well, but that's pretty much the extent of their usefulness as ego trips.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on August 23, 2009, 02:43:49 AM
I'd probably point at the Steam archievements, they're completely optional and when you get one all your friends are told about it (unless they uncheck notifications for it) on the community page, combining ignorability and bragging into one convenient package while also reminding your friends what games you're playing.

Anyway, the complaint was that these secondary features are being considered a vital part of the game instead of something that's nice to have if you have it but no big deal if you don't
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 23, 2009, 09:45:04 AM
Weird, I've never met anyone who values trophies more than the actual game.  Most PS3 gamers I know, see them as a compliment to their collection.  And no one really gives a damn about the easy bronze ones.  Its the platinum, and gold that really count.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on August 23, 2009, 10:06:58 AM
Aww man, I thought he left.

While nobody goes nuts for achievements, or the points thereof, much anymore, that is be precisely why they might be phased out Next Generation.  While initially there were seen as a way to add replay value, they haven't exactly set the world ablaze into buying frenzy just because they exist.  This is because the majority of gamers and yes, that is mostly the Wii and DS, and even PSP people, do not think it adds value to the final product.  As economics puts the squeeze on development studios, they will look for additional ways to save money, and the two things that will first be cut, will be A-List voice-acting and the two or three programmers whose sole job it is to look for achievement triggers in the code and make a link to an online profile (Also in danger of become either a charge service or have its price increased,) because they are not really seen as adding value to games anymore.

Sort of like how Sony abandoned Rumble technology at first this generation and how MS abandoned BC patches and instead opted for the money generating "digital distribution" of Xbox 1 titles.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 23, 2009, 10:55:44 AM
Aww man, I thought he left.

Hey Juggalo, you should really work on your comprehension skills.  I said I was done with discussing "arrogance", rather than continue to derail the thread.

and the two things that will first be cut, will be A-List voice-acting and the two or three programmers whose sole job it is to look for achievement triggers in the code and make a link to an online profile (Also in danger of become either a charge service or have its price increased,) because they are not really seen as adding value to games anymore.

BwAaaahahaha! (http://www.edge-online.com/news/achievements-driving-game-sales-microsoft)  Tell you what.  Once that happens, I'll leave this forum, wish granted!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: ShyGuy on August 23, 2009, 10:59:27 AM
Wait, Deguello is a Juggalo?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 23, 2009, 11:13:08 AM
Wait, Deguello is a Juggalo?

Juggalo - Fan of insane Clown Posse

maybe meaning that he is calling Deguello an Insane Clown
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on August 23, 2009, 11:40:09 AM
Quote
Hey Juggalo, you should really work on your comprehension skills.

...  What?  You might wanna try for better insults.  Leaving your target befuddled as opposed to insulted isn't exactly effective, dude.

Quote
BwAaaahahaha!  Tell you what.  Once that happens, I'll leave this forum, wish granted!

Outdated study is outdated.  A study from 2007 stating that achievements drove games sales in 2006 to 2007 fits right in line with what I've been saying here.  Initially, they were interesting additions, but not so anymore, and will probably be downplayed or eliminated in the next gen as a cost-cutting measure.

But if it's a stat fight you want, and since the prize is so juicy, I'll give you your desire.

DS - ~107 million units
Wii - ~52 million units
PSP - ~51 million units
360 - ~31 million units
PS3 - ~23 million units.

Notice how the top THREE do not have all-inclusive "achievement point systems," elected to have them by a game-by-game basis as the developer desires (e.g Contra 4, Wii Sports Resort, etc). In fact,  The Top 11 games this GENERATION don't even use "achievement points" at ALL.

1. Wii Sports - ~47 million
2. Wii Play - ~23 million
3. Nintendogs - ~22 million
4. Wii Fit - ~21 million
5. NSMB DS - ~20 million
6. Brain Age - ~17 miillion
7. Mario Kart Wii - ~17 million
8. Pokemon Diamond/Pearl - ~17 million
9. Mario Kart DS- ~ ~16 million
10. Brain Age 2 - ~14 million
11. Animal Crossing - ~11 million

After this, the first game at around 10 million, is Halo 3.  And that game only incidentally has achievements and probably sold more because it is Halo 3 than "achievements included."  Then it's SSBB, Mario Galaxy, Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games, and then CoD4.

So of the Top 16 games this generation, only two use achievements.  and since no game with achievements has outsold GTA: SA, the top selling game from last generation, I can say that achievements, at least, have not added anything customers really want.

But it's funny that, after accusing Nintendo of arrogance, and myself of being a paid "shill" for... disagreeing with you, you whip out a report with PR freshly slurped from the chin of an MS representative, fueled by an outdated 2007 study.  Who looks more like a viral marketer?

In any case, I have proven that achievements, to games sales and console userbases, have really contributed nothing and one COULD argue they've actually detracted from sales.  So you are free to leave.  Or you can try to discredit me and these figures and stick around, which is kinda what everybody's expecting.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on August 23, 2009, 12:02:44 PM
Quote
Hey Juggalo, you should really work on your comprehension skills.

...  What?  You might wanna try for better insults.  Leaving your target befuddled as opposed to insulted isn't exactly effective, dude.

Quote
BwAaaahahaha!  Tell you what.  Once that happens, I'll leave this forum, wish granted!

Outdated study is outdated.  A study from 2007 stating that achievements drove games sales in 2006 to 2007 fits right in line with what I've been saying here.  Initially, they were interesting additions, but not so anymore, and will probably be downplayed or eliminated in the next gen as a cost-cutting measure.

But if it's a stat fight you want, and since the prize is so juicy, I'll give you your desire.

DS - ~107 million units
Wii - ~52 million units
PSP - ~51 million units
360 - ~31 million units
PS3 - ~23 million units.

Notice how the top THREE do not have all-inclusive "achievement point systems," elected to have them by a game-by-game basis as the developer desires (e.g Contra 4, Wii Sports Resort, etc). In fact,  The Top 11 games this GENERATION don't even use "achievement points" at ALL.

1. Wii Sports - ~47 million
2. Wii Play - ~23 million
3. Nintendogs - ~22 million
4. Wii Fit - ~21 million
5. NSMB DS - ~20 million
6. Brain Age - ~17 miillion
7. Mario Kart Wii - ~17 million
8. Pokemon Diamond/Pearl - ~17 million
9. Mario Kart DS- ~ ~16 million
10. Brain Age 2 - ~14 million
11. Animal Crossing - ~11 million

After this, the first game at around 10 million, is Halo 3.  And that game only incidentally has achievements and probably sold more because it is Halo 3 than "achievements included."  Then it's SSBB, Mario Galaxy, Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games, and then CoD4.

So of the Top 16 games this generation, only two use achievements.  and since no game with achievements has outsold GTA: SA, the top selling game from last generation, I can say that achievements, at least, have not added anything customers really want.

But it's funny that, after accusing Nintendo of arrogance, and myself of being a paid "shill" for... disagreeing with you, you whip out a report with PR freshly slurped from the chin of an MS representative, fueled by an outdated 2007 study.  Who looks more like a viral marketer?

In any case, I have proven that achievements, to games sales and console userbases, have really contributed nothing and one COULD argue they've actually detracted from sales.  So you are free to leave.  Or you can try to discredit me and these figures and stick around, which is kinda what everybody's expecting.

There's just one problem with your "proof".  Those top 3 games are on platforms that don't support achievements/trophies, so one can argue that group just hasn't experienced them before so they can't like or dislike them.  More accurate "proof" would be if the top 3 games were non-trophy/achievement games on platforms that supported trophies/achievements.  And by the way, companies like achievements, because they're easy to code (simple triggers, maybe 1-2 programmer tops.  The hard part of achievements is testing them, not coding them); add longevity to the product; and gives incentives to gamers not to trade their games in to GameStop.  They're something so simple to implement I'd be shocked if the cost was more than negligible.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 23, 2009, 12:12:45 PM
In any case, I have proven that achievements, to games sales and console userbases, have really contributed nothing and one COULD argue they've actually detracted from sales.  So you are free to leave.  Or you can try to discredit me and these figures and stick around, which is kinda what everybody's expecting.

Yeah, Edge was so stupid to run this story a couple months ago.  What a bunch of dumba$$es!  Obviously, they didn't take into account the updated study to debunk the claim.  Go ahead and provide a link to it and I'll email it to Edge.  God I can't stand those guys, they hate the Wii.  They'll twist any study in order to save teh industry from going casual.

Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on August 23, 2009, 12:14:14 PM
Quote
There's just one problem with your "proof".  Those top 3 games are on platforms that don't support achievements/trophies, so one can argue that group just hasn't experienced them before so they can't like or dislike them.

So once you buy a Wii, you are forbidden to buy a 360?  Achievements would have made an impact in increased 360 sales over the Wii's.

Quote
More accurate "proof" would be if the top 3 games were non-trophy/achievement games on platforms that supported trophies/achievements.

No.  If the achievements/trophies actually drove sales, they would have driven sales above competitors products.

Quote
And by the way, companies like achievements, because they're easy to code (simple triggers, maybe 1-2 programmer tops.  The hard part of achievements is testing them, not coding them); add longevity to the product; and gives incentives to gamers not to trade their games in to GameStop.

None of this has been proven, and even if achievements were simple to produce, the economy has put enough squeeze on most developers and console makers that they've gone as far as to charge DLC for in-game money and stuff that used to be secret unlockables, like alternate costumes.  Who knows what further financial pressure might lead to.

Using the fact that the top three systems don't use achievements is precisely my point.  If they meant something, it would lead to higher sales of those systems.  It hasn't, and hasn't drove games that use them above games that don't.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 23, 2009, 12:14:21 PM

In any case, I have proven that achievements, to games sales and console userbases, have really contributed nothing and one COULD argue they've actually detracted from sales.

But I'm sure they have increased rentals, especially among those chasing as many points as possible. ;D
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on August 23, 2009, 12:17:36 PM
In any case, I have proven that achievements, to games sales and console userbases, have really contributed nothing and one COULD argue they've actually detracted from sales.  So you are free to leave.  Or you can try to discredit me and these figures and stick around, which is kinda what everybody's expecting.

Yeah, Edge was so stupid to run this story a couple months ago.  What a bunch of dumba$$es!  Obviously, they didn't take into account the updated study to debunk the claim.  Go ahead and provide a link to it and I'll email it to Edge.  God I can't stand those guys, they hate the Wii.  They'll twist any study in order to save teh industry from going casual.

Quote
Electronic Entertainment Design and Research (EEDAR) analyzed the 4,615 achievements incorporated in 124 retail and 63 downloadable game titles available for the Microsoft® Xbox 360™ during the period November 1, 2005 through June 1, 2007.

Oh my God, you are like the worst debater in the history of the world.  You didn't even READ YOUR OWN LINK.  This is the methodology for EEDAR's research on this issue.  Jesus Christ how embarrassing for you.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 23, 2009, 12:23:22 PM
Oh my God, you are like the worst debater in the history of the world.  You didn't even READ YOUR OWN LINK.  This is the methodology for EEDAR's research on this issue.  Jesus Christ how embarrassing for you.

D_Average

whats in a name?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Elixir on August 23, 2009, 12:43:00 PM
I agree with you that labels are silly.  But I don't think there is anything particuarily "ironic" about a gamer wanting fantastic graphics or more reasons to replay a game.  Some people like story, some controls, some a new experience, some just another FPS, and some unique or cutting edge graphics.  For example, racing games are my favorite genre.  There's nothing like flying through the tracks of Burnout and Pacific Rift.  In order for a visceral experience, only the latest and greatest graphics will do.  Going back to most GCN/PS2 racers now is a yawn fest (save Mario Kart and Twisted Metal)  Therefore, top notch hd graphics increase the gaming out of body experience for many people and become a legitimate request.

Back to your first statement though.  If the vast majority of "hardcore gamers" praising hd graphics, actually played their respective 360/PS3 on a 15 year old CRT, well, that would be ironic.  Almost as ironic as gamers who whine about gamerscore and long for the days of old.  Days where the score chase was alive and well in arcades across the world.  Donkey Kong anyone?

First of all, what is this tangent on visuals?  1080p is a resolution, not a whole new graphical coat of paint.  A game with fantastic art design will always look fantastic, no matter what resolution it is represented in, and games that look like crap will not magically look great when that resolution is increased.  And it is for that reason I find this exaggerated enthusiasm for 1080p completely unnecessary.  And if you cannot go back to a game because it lacks the highest resolution or visual fidelity possible, then well, I feel bad for you.

And surely you jest about the arcade comparison to achievements.  A game in the arcade with a scoreboard is a single game in which players compete for the highest score.  The point system that achievements and trophies entail involve every single game and a TOTAL score.  No longer is there a competition for a single score of theoretically-infinite outcomes, but who has the most spare time to perform ridiculous tasks and rent awful games for a set number of achievements.  This is what I have been attacking, not the inclusion of achievements themselves, yet you keep skewing it in illogical ways.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on August 23, 2009, 12:50:23 PM
Can we please talk about the MEDIA again?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 23, 2009, 01:06:42 PM
In any case, I have proven that achievements, to games sales and console userbases, have really contributed nothing and one COULD argue they've actually detracted from sales.  So you are free to leave.  Or you can try to discredit me and these figures and stick around, which is kinda what everybody's expecting.

Yeah, Edge was so stupid to run this story a couple months ago.  What a bunch of dumba$$es!  Obviously, they didn't take into account the updated study to debunk the claim.  Go ahead and provide a link to it and I'll email it to Edge.  God I can't stand those guys, they hate the Wii.  They'll twist any study in order to save teh industry from going casual.

Quote
Electronic Entertainment Design and Research (EEDAR) analyzed the 4,615 achievements incorporated in 124 retail and 63 downloadable game titles available for the Microsoft® Xbox 360™ during the period November 1, 2005 through June 1, 2007.

Oh my God, you are like the worst debater in the history of the world.  You didn't even READ YOUR OWN LINK.  This is the methodology for EEDAR's research on this issue.  Jesus Christ how embarrassing for you.

Uhhh.  I did read the link.  I knew it was from 2007.  So did Edge.  I'm assumed they USED IT b/c there isn't a more RECENT study to debunk it.  A study which I asked YOU to PROVIDE.  So where is it Juggy?  Sounds like you misread another short post.  Jeeebus, how emabarrasing for you.

I might add, isn't it a bit ironic you're defending Nintendo's "thank you very much we don't need them"  arrogant like attitude on the issue of achievements (or carrots as they say)?  Just admit you're a fanboi dude and we'll be cool, as there is no sense in debating the deluded.  Opps, wasn't supposed to bring that topic back up!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 23, 2009, 01:12:37 PM
And surely you jest about the arcade comparison to achievements.  A game in the arcade with a scoreboard is a single game in which players compete for the highest score.  The point system that achievements and trophies entail involve every single game and a TOTAL score.  No longer is there a competition for a single score of theoretically-infinite outcomes, but who has the most spare time to perform ridiculous tasks and rent awful games for a set number of achievements.  This is what I have been attacking, not the inclusion of achievements themselves, yet you keep skewing it in illogical ways.

To this, I would simply refer you to any gaming podcast around the time Geometry Wars 1 or 2 came out.  Everybody lost sleep due to the viscous cycle of topping their friends score.  The score chase is back, alive and well today, with much thanks to MS's idea of points.  I don't own a 360, but I'm glad they implemented the system. 
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 23, 2009, 01:20:06 PM
Isn't there a big difference between chasing a Hi Score and chasing a Gamer Score?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 23, 2009, 01:33:45 PM
Isn't there a big difference between chasing a Hi Score and chasing a Gamer Score?

Definitely.  Anybody can get a huge gamer score with a lil bit of time and $$.  I think taking it that far is silly, in terms of obsessing over your total score or trophy level, and you could end up ruining your life over it.  Trying to best your buddies time or score in a few games is where its at, or collecting more platinum and golds than him/her.  Something that takes real skill.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 23, 2009, 02:07:39 PM
At the post above my last one you tried to say achievements (GamerScore) were alive and well since people were chasing Hi Scores in Geometry wars. Then in the next post you say that they are very different things. seems very contradicting.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 23, 2009, 02:18:41 PM
At the post above my last one you tried to say achievements (GamerScore) were alive and well since people were chasing Hi Scores in Geometry wars. Then in the next post you say that they are very different things. seems very contradicting.

Yeah, I can see that.  And I'm not too familiar with the way it works on 360, but I was trying to communicate that beating your friends high score on a game is a good thing.  And on many games, this will give you an achievement or trophy which adds fuel to beating that score.  In addition, its a good thing to compete with friends to see who can unlock every achievement or trophy on a game you both love (similar to bragging about getting 120 stars in SMG as Luigi).  While on the opposite side, running to Blockbuster to rent s##7 titles to boost your overall score is taking it a bit too seriously and too far.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on August 23, 2009, 02:39:29 PM
Quote
Uhhh.  I did read the link.  I knew it was from 2007.  So did Edge.  I'm assumed they USED IT b/c there isn't a more RECENT study to debunk it.  A study which I asked YOU to PROVIDE.  So where is it Juggy?  Sounds like you misread another short post.  Jeeebus, how emabarrasing for you.

I've proven my point, bud, in that large post with the sales figures.  Achievements have not grown sales beyond non-achievement games and systems.  You RESPONDED to this claim with this outdated study from 2007, which measured a 2 year period from 2005 to 2007, after which achievements seem to have not BESTED non-achievement platforms.  The burden of proof is on YOU, dude. YOU have to prove that achievements have grown sales, because I have already shown that they haven't, using actual numerical, empirical data instead of a Microsoft PR guy using an old study.

And seriously, "Juggy?"  Just shut up.

Quote
I might add, isn't it a bit ironic you're defending Nintendo's "thank you very much we don't need them"  arrogant like attitude on the issue of achievements (or carrots as they say)?  Just admit you're a fanboi dude and we'll be cool, as there is no sense in debating the deluded.  Opps, wasn't supposed to bring that topic back up!

I am unaware of any stance Nintendo has on achievement-like systems, except they seem to be mostly sticking to the method that they've used since Super Smash Bros. Melee (2001), that is, having neat unlockables in the game as opposed to the unlockable things being a TITLE or some words and meaningless numbers and the actual extra content requiring a DLC purchase.  And I can see you are trying to label a fanboy because I agree with Nintendo in both instances of them not being arrogant for talking about sales numbers and because I don't see the value in achievement systems (like the majority of gamers apparently), when I don't exactly agree with everything they've done lately (Not localizing some of their own games in the hopes that third parties would use this opportunity for once instead of making crap that won't sell and then blaming either Nintendo or Wii customers for their own failure.)  But I'm not a deluded fanboy just because I disagree with you, because, a lot of people here disagree with you.  Which would make most everybody here a deluded fanboy.

Or more logically, it's just you who is bonkers, and you never discuss my points or anybody's points or the topic at hand and just throw insults around or psychological terms you don't understand because you think it gives you "street cred" or something.  But it doesn't.  You seem uninterested in the debate or the topic and think that if you are the loudest monkey in the pen, you'll get a banana.  And it's pretty cute when you think you have the upper hand, like you'll "win" something if you can just drag it out past logic or past anybody's interest in dealing with you.

And BnM, I'd watch out if he starts throwing around insults in your direction when you catch him in a bind.  If he comes up with "Juggalo" (whatever the hell that is) from "Deguello," he might get into some racial stuff out of your name.  So, be prepared, eh?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on August 23, 2009, 02:49:08 PM
I agree with Deg, achievements are boring IMO, I see no real point to them besides patting yourself on the back. Also to add onto Deg's statement, Nintendo has shown they support achievements, just look at Metroid Prime Corruption, and now Metroid Prime Trilogy. The primary difference is that those achievements get you tokens that you can use to unlock bonuses so they actually have a purpose.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 23, 2009, 03:29:35 PM
Deg, I'm not worried about D_Avg. making any innapproproate names from my screen name. The term he called you isn't a play on your name either (if he's using it the way i think he is).

Wait, Deguello is a Juggalo?

Juggalo - Fan of Insane Clown Posse (ICP)

maybe meaning that he is calling Deguello an Insane Clown

here is a link to what he ma be talking about
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=juggalo&search_type=&aq=f
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 23, 2009, 04:16:23 PM
Anyways. Back to the media anyone?  For now I'll be off trophy hunting.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 24, 2009, 11:43:29 AM
I still haven't listened to that pod cast, but doesn't Bloodworth work over at GameTrailers now? I wonder what he has to say about some of these choice quotes

Quote from: GT Podcast
"The big loser, Nintendo" And said with a chuckle.

"Nintendo is looking more fucked than a Tijuana whore"

"There just lookin' out of touch" The irony.

"They can't get over themselves"

"Who is gonna get the Wii for 250 when you can get the beasts of machine for an extra 50"

"You know motion controls are coming and you can play with those controls on games that look and sound way better"

"Almost like the toy my 1st videogame console"

"I would say everyone stop buying the Wii but they already have"

"Nintendo it's game over bro"

"Sony just released a console that looks completely different from the PS3"

"Created a system for people who don't buy freakin games"

"No people that buy software"

"Would a price cut even work"

"Could cut the price to $150 and see a bump but no long term benefit"

Nintendo "Were doomed were done"

"Punch-Out tanked"

"hope 50% on Wii has gotten a taste for gaming and buy a PS3"

"Between MS and Sony they can really finish off the Wii as a game console in the next 12 months"

"Not gonna shed a tear over the Wii"

"Sick of that console, I have No respect for Nintendo right now"

NSMB Wii "frickin' lame"

"could be the start of a 2 horse race"

"Nintendo can make their toys which is what there best at They've stopped making hardcore games"

someone should get him on the phone.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 24, 2009, 11:50:03 AM
bahahahahaha
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on August 24, 2009, 11:59:05 AM
I still haven't listened to that pod cast, but doesn't Bloodworth work over at GameTrailers now? I wonder what he has to say about some of these choice quotes

Quote from: GT Podcast
"The big loser, Nintendo" And said with a chuckle.

"Nintendo is looking more ****ed than a Tijuana whore"

"There just lookin' out of touch" The irony.

"They can't get over themselves"

"Who is gonna get the Wii for 250 when you can get the beasts of machine for an extra 50"

"You know motion controls are coming and you can play with those controls on games that look and sound way better"

"Almost like the toy my 1st videogame console"

"I would say everyone stop buying the Wii but they already have"

"Nintendo it's game over bro"

"Sony just released a console that looks completely different from the PS3"

"Created a system for people who don't buy freakin games"

"No people that buy software"

"Would a price cut even work"

"Could cut the price to $150 and see a bump but no long term benefit"

Nintendo "Were doomed were done"

"Punch-Out tanked"

"hope 50% on Wii has gotten a taste for gaming and buy a PS3"

"Between MS and Sony they can really finish off the Wii as a game console in the next 12 months"

"Not gonna shed a tear over the Wii"

"Sick of that console, I have No respect for Nintendo right now"

NSMB Wii "frickin' lame"

"could be the start of a 2 horse race"

"Nintendo can make their toys which is what there best at They've stopped making hardcore games"

someone should get him on the phone.

The editors actually said this? Or did they use random comments from GT trollers?

Either way, its like the price reduction of the PS3 and a new design appeared as a bright glimmer of hope during Nintendo's moments of hardcore disruption, which in a way is sad beyond belief. I understand that being in third place hurt some fans (now you know how Nintendo fans felt during the N64 and GC games, Sony fans), but still...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on August 24, 2009, 12:10:00 PM
I still haven't listened to that pod cast, but doesn't Bloodworth work over at GameTrailers now? I wonder what he has to say about some of these choice quotes

Quote from: GT Podcast
"The big loser, Nintendo" And said with a chuckle.

"Nintendo is looking more ****ed than a Tijuana whore"

"There just lookin' out of touch" The irony.

"They can't get over themselves"

"Who is gonna get the Wii for 250 when you can get the beasts of machine for an extra 50"

"You know motion controls are coming and you can play with those controls on games that look and sound way better"

"Almost like the toy my 1st videogame console"

"I would say everyone stop buying the Wii but they already have"

"Nintendo it's game over bro"

"Sony just released a console that looks completely different from the PS3"

"Created a system for people who don't buy freakin games"

"No people that buy software"

"Would a price cut even work"

"Could cut the price to $150 and see a bump but no long term benefit"

Nintendo "Were doomed were done"

"Punch-Out tanked"

"hope 50% on Wii has gotten a taste for gaming and buy a PS3"

"Between MS and Sony they can really finish off the Wii as a game console in the next 12 months"

"Not gonna shed a tear over the Wii"

"Sick of that console, I have No respect for Nintendo right now"

NSMB Wii "frickin' lame"

"could be the start of a 2 horse race"

"Nintendo can make their toys which is what there best at They've stopped making hardcore games"

someone should get him on the phone.

The editors actually said this? Or did they use random comments from GT trollers?

Either way, its like the price reduction of the PS3 and a new design appeared as a bright glimmer of hope during Nintendo's moments of hardcore disruption, which in a way is sad beyond belief. I understand that being in third place hurt some fans (now you know how Nintendo fans felt during the N64 and GC games, Sony fans), but still...

Those quotes came from the most recent edition of the Gametrailers Invisible Walls podcast.  While I disagree with the hyperbole, at this point I can't blame them for being more than a little annoyed with Nintendo at this point.  Still, it's their podcast and they can say whatever the hell they want.  I doubt most of them even review Wii games so what does it matter?

EDIT: I hesitate to put this up because it's a little redundant, but here:

http://www.gamecritics.com/tim-spaeth/gamecritics-com-podcast-episode-18-wii-hate-nintendo

Gametrailers is far from the only podcast to put forth unfavorable impressions on the Wii.  I don't see what the big deal is there so long as it doesn't interfere with their reviews and impressions.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on August 24, 2009, 12:14:48 PM
They can say that they hate the Wii (really not uncommon for the gaming media which will probably prevent them from ever gaining those new gamers as their customers) but blatant nonsense like that should not get put into anything that ends up on the site.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on August 24, 2009, 12:18:15 PM
Yeah, it might be their podcast and you are right in that they have the right to say whatever they want. But just because they have that right it doesn't mean that they won't look any less childish and ignorant, especially if they don't even bother with Wii software.

They could have handled this in an objective manner, stating that Nintendo's apparently weak fall schedule could be an advantage for the PS3 and its new slim design and price point. But instead they decide to handle this in the most immature way possible and pander to the lowest common denominator like they were the sons of godofgtaIII and Chad Warden.

Its precisely this sort of thing that turns me away from videogame media. They want to be taken seriously in the industry, yet resort to childish behavior to drive a point across. It might sound impossible but you CAN be objective and still express your opinion without having to sound like a disgruntled fanboy, even if deep, deep down you feel a hatred for all things Nintendo/MS/Sony.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Nick DiMola on August 24, 2009, 12:52:15 PM
I still don't and will never get the Wii hate.

Whatever, go complain while I have fun.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: ShyGuy on August 24, 2009, 12:54:44 PM
Wow, let's not reward those geniuses with our patronage.

I personally do hope things get a little tough for Nintendo in the NA market. Competition is a good thing, and it may motivate NOA to release Disaster, Fatal Frame, and Trace Memory here in the US.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 24, 2009, 01:03:35 PM
This just comes back around as Gaming "Journalism" not being held to the same standards and integrity as News Journalism. If a news place that was trying to be taken seriously like, um, lets say MSNBC, had a new caster that represents the channel that decided to do a full on opinion piece that just had no journalistic integrity whatsoever, they wouldn't be advertising it on the channel and probably not directly on the site. The newscaster would have to pimp his personal blog, which would probably be completely unrelated to the msnbc site, just to put up such a factless biased opinionated hit piece.

You can't want to be a respected source of factual news and opinionated commentary while acting like a butt hurt man-child whose mommy brought him strawberry milk instead of chocolate, so now he wants to go off on an BS tirade based on his own fantasy perception of the market he supposedly professionally covers. They are sounding like FOX news with all the false propaganda spreading just because they aren't the 'on top' anymore.

It's one thing to express your opinion, but it's another to just out right lie and spread the FUD while contradicting yourself in the process.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on August 24, 2009, 02:02:26 PM
For the record I think that Invisible Walls is one of the worst video game podcasts ever.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on August 24, 2009, 02:19:34 PM
For the record I think that Invisible Walls is one of the worst video game podcasts ever.

Well considering invisible walls are one of the laziest technical shortcuts in gaming, it makes sense.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 24, 2009, 02:32:14 PM
This is the equivalent of those high school nerds who played Magic: The Gathering during lunch and horded their own "elite table" while telling noobs to play somewhere else cuz their deck "sucks," as freshly chewed Cheetos dripped from their lips while drawing the next greasy card from an oily deck.

Just what I'd expect from a media outlet whose business is exclusively rooted in generating ad revenue by attracting visitors to quick (non-critically thought-out) eye-candy content.  They're doing a GREAT JOB expanding their means of success, getting attention and expanding their audience by providing shitty content, which is sorta the kinda thing they and the "media" accuse Nintendo of.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: ShyGuy on August 24, 2009, 02:52:27 PM
I've always said nerds are the worst bullies of them all.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 24, 2009, 04:34:11 PM
Anyone listen to the Gamecritics link above?  I've never even heard of it, but I'll check it out and let you know what I think.  Always looking for new shows.  Just started a new job where I'll have plenty of time to listen.

As far as invisible walls, I don't mind sarcasm and insults, as long as its directed at every company.  Those guys really came off of some nerds/jocks who were sick of Sony in 3rd and felt their day had finally come.  What annoyed me most was the idea that your an a$$hole if you didn't buy Madworld or The Conduit.  If we don't want it, we don't want it.  Developing/publishing games is not a charity.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on August 24, 2009, 10:26:29 PM
Game Critics were reading their "Sony rulez" fan fiction, it's the only thing that makes sense to me.

Seriously.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on August 25, 2009, 02:01:43 AM
Competition is a good thing, and it may motivate NOA to release [..] Fatal Frame [..] in the US.

Tecmo fucked the controls up and refused to unfuck them when told to do so, I don't think Nintendo should give that game an international release if Tecmo doesn't even bother to unbreak it.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Nick DiMola on August 25, 2009, 04:22:35 AM
Honestly, I wish Nintendo would just release that game regardless. It's sad that it's going to sit there and fans of the series outside of Japan aren't going to be able to experience it.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on August 25, 2009, 07:28:46 AM
I don't think there are many fans who will like it because of the franchise even with broken controls (and tons of other bugs from what I heard), it may be reasonable to release it fixed but the broken game won't make many people happy.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 25, 2009, 07:38:58 AM
Nintendo has quality control standards. The minimum of functional controls was set for US release, Tecmo didn't want to meet that, end of story..... so far.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on August 25, 2009, 07:56:29 AM
Yet Nintendo was publishing it, why didn't Tecmo buckle under their strict control? Is Tecmo really that arrogant?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 25, 2009, 08:03:10 AM
They already got the Other M contract, so they weren't to worried about it?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: mac<censored> on August 25, 2009, 08:03:54 AM
... at this point I can't blame them for being more than a little annoyed with Nintendo at this point.

Er, why?  What has Nintendo done wrong...?

Even one accepts the notion that they have cause to be annoyed because of the lack of "hardcore" titles on the wii, it doesn't seem like that has much to do with Nintendo -- it's the 3rd parties who are continuing to focus solely on the ps3/xbox.  Capcom could have reused the RE4 engine and made a followup on the wii; judging from RE4 sales, it probably would have been very popular.  But ... they didn't.

Anyway, I think the reason these idiots are spewing bile the way they are is that they just don't like the image of the wii.  It's like a little kid throwing a tantrum over the new bike you bought him because grandma's bike is the same color...

If Nintendo had used the same testosterone-laden posturing that its competitors did, it almost certainly would have failed in the market -- but these guys would be happy.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 25, 2009, 09:02:42 AM
Seeing their world crumble makes me happy.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on August 25, 2009, 10:53:24 AM
... at this point I can't blame them for being more than a little annoyed with Nintendo at this point.

Er, why?  What has Nintendo done wrong...?

Even one accepts the notion that they have cause to be annoyed because of the lack of "hardcore" titles on the wii, it doesn't seem like that has much to do with Nintendo -- it's the 3rd parties who are continuing to focus solely on the ps3/xbox.  Capcom could have reused the RE4 engine and made a followup on the wii; judging from RE4 sales, it probably would have been very popular.  But ... they didn't.

Actually, it has everything to do with Nintendo.  Nintendo did a poor job planning out their software schedule, leading to this total drought of non-Blue Ocean titles since Mario Kart Wii came out.  Instead of focusing on developing more titles of that nature, they wasted time on things like Wii Music.  We could have, and should have, had titles like Pikmin 3 by now instead.  On a Nintendo platform, everyone follows Nintendo's lead and Nintendo went for the Blue Ocean/casual crowd.  That Sega decided to be a hold-out and keep publishing titles for us is pretty incredible, given that even Nintendo wasn't doing that for the last 1 1/2 years.  If Nintendo had led like a good console manufacturer should, the variety in the marketplace would probably be better than it is now.  So yeah, I think they have a genuine grievance with Nintendo.  3rd parties deserve their share of the blame as well, but they only went where Nintendo was already going.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 25, 2009, 11:06:47 AM
That is the only effective argument to lay out, which is why I've used it for trolling in the past.

It's chum for a pack of IanSharks.

tho you'd still have to zero in on third parties, cuz their historic/traditional role WAS/IS to provide entertainment products that differentiated themselves from the first party products; to provide what the console maker was not.  these days it seems the overuling approach to achieve differentiation is to focus on a different platform rather than diversifying an existing library.  something has gone awry in these latter TV Box Machine Wars: idea of pursuing "demographics."
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on August 25, 2009, 03:43:36 PM
Seeing their world crumble makes me happy.
Yet they still get internet hits which leads to money hats. So technically, their world is only semi-crumbling.

An earth-shattering world crumbling is Factor 5 closing up shop. Karma is my favorite thing in the entire world.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on August 25, 2009, 06:45:52 PM
Quote
On a Nintendo platform, everyone follows Nintendo's lead

Well then there's your problem.  Maybe third parties oughta grow a pair and make their own games instead of just making cheap knockoffs of stuff.  And besides, when Nintendo made a majority of "core games," like Zelda, Metroid, and SSBB, and with stuff like RE4 and hell even the Call of Duty games pulling down millions, they didn't say "Hey, now THERE'S an opportunity, we need to put, say, FIGHTING games, because there is a huge market for fighting games on Wii, what with the highest selling and most popular fighting game of all time, SSBB, being for the system."  They usually say something about how they can't "beat Nintendo" or something.

So when Nintendo makes core games, third parties just ignore it or run around yelping about how "Only Nintendo games sell on Nintendo systems, we can't compete, BAWWWWW!"  And when Nintendo has some core game downtime (as it takes time to make those games, as opposed to say, Wii Fit), it's all "Whelp, just goes to show, Wii is non-games for non-gaming grandmas."  It's like they were already looking for a reason to not make Wii games, and then they found one.  And you say this like 3rd parties have had great success aping Nintendo's games like Wii fit and Wii Sports, when they really haven't.   EA Active might be a small success at around a million right now, but Wii Fit has sold somewhere in the 20 million range.

Nintendo is not to blame for third parties.  Seriously.  They have had AMPLE opportunity to create high quality games for the Wii and attempt to market them, but they've either ignored the market or threw around stereotypes/demographics/downright insults to Wii owners.  It's like you are trying to blame a hip, cool kid at school because a lot of people try to cramp his style and failing at it.  Maybe if third parties would just BE THEMSELVES instead of Nintendo-Lite or bitching about how Nintendo's popular, they'd have better reputations.  Take, for example, Monster Hunter 3 in Japan, highest selling third party game this generation there.  Core game, Wii.  And this isn't a "casualized" or "focus-tested" Blue-Ocean blahblahblah Monster Hunter.  It's just Monster Hunter 3.

Quote
An earth-shattering world crumbling is Factor 5 closing up shop. Karma is my favorite thing in the entire world.

That's not nearly as gratifying as GRIN closing up.  It's like somebody wrote a fanfiction about being a Wii fan and seeing this actual Wii-hating developer (The president had quotes as such) go from major mover on the PS360 front to choking on its own blood after three straight failures, one a complete destruction of a beloved NES classic by making it some kind of "Mature" game mutant.

Ooo~  Get goosebumps just thinking about it.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 25, 2009, 07:01:35 PM
Quote
On a Nintendo platform, everyone follows Nintendo's lead

Well then there's your problem.  Maybe third parties oughta grow a pair and make their own games instead of just making cheap knockoffs of stuff.  And besides, when Nintendo made a majority of "core games," like Zelda, Metroid, and SSBB, and with stuff like RE4 and hell even the Call of Duty games pulling down millions, they didn't say "Hey, now THERE'S an opportunity, we need to put, say, FIGHTING games, because there is a huge market for fighting games on Wii, what with the highest selling and most popular fighting game of all time, SSBB, being for the system."  They usually say something about how they can't "beat Nintendo" or something.

So when Nintendo makes core games, third parties just ignore it or run around yelping about how "Only Nintendo games sell on Nintendo systems, we can't compete, BAWWWWW!"  And when Nintendo has some core game downtime (as it takes time to make those games, as opposed to say, Wii Fit), it's all "Whelp, just goes to show, Wii is non-games for non-gaming grandmas."  It's like they were already looking for a reason to not make Wii games, and then they found one.  And you say this like 3rd parties have had great success aping Nintendo's games like Wii fit and Wii Sports, when they really haven't.   EA Active might be a small success at around a million right now, but Wii Fit has sold somewhere in the 20 million range.

Nintendo is not to blame for third parties.  Seriously.  They have had AMPLE opportunity to create high quality games for the Wii and attempt to market them, but they've either ignored the market or threw around stereotypes/demographics/downright insults to Wii owners.  It's like you are trying to blame a hip, cool kid at school because a lot of people try to cramp his style and failing at it.  Maybe if third parties would just BE THEMSELVES instead of Nintendo-Lite or bitching about how Nintendo's popular, they'd have better reputations.  Take, for example, Monster Hunter 3 in Japan, highest selling third party game this generation there.  Core game, Wii.  And this isn't a "casualized" or "focus-tested" Blue-Ocean blahblahblah Monster Hunter.  It's just Monster Hunter 3.

Quote

I must say, those are some really goods points Deguello, have you ever considered being a consultant at Capcom or Ubisoft?  Sounds like they could use someone like you to finally straighten them out.  Hell, I'd even attach this post to your resume.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 25, 2009, 07:03:43 PM
Speaking. The. Truth.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Stogi on August 25, 2009, 07:17:21 PM
That post was a joy to read.

Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on August 25, 2009, 09:26:03 PM
Quote
Take, for example, Monster Hunter 3 in Japan, highest selling third party game this generation there.  Core game, Wii.  And this isn't a "casualized" or "focus-tested" Blue-Ocean blahblahblah Monster Hunter.  It's just Monster Hunter 3.
To Capcom's credit, it worked out really well. But while I'm really interested in RE: Darkside Chronicles, I get this strange feeling that Capcom's Mikami-less RE team thinks we're not too bright to handle a survivor horror game.

I'm grinning at GRIN's death too. =)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on August 25, 2009, 11:50:45 PM
I think EA considers EA Sports Active a success, noone (reasonable) expects to outsell Nintendo but they do expect certain returns on their investment and apparently EA Sports Active provided that.

As for the pathetic state, let me nominate something: Over-reliance on publisher provided review copies! You regularly see sites ignoring recently released games with the comment "don't have a review copy yet". This bit a hardware testing site in the ass when they got their testing samples from manufacturers and one of them sent them a hand picked RAM stick that tolerated overclocking to much higher values than most of the sticks of that type do. There's a reason proper consumer review groups buy all the test objects themselves.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 26, 2009, 12:08:46 AM
Well I doubt a publisher is gonna have a special version of a game with all the issues fixed just for the review copy (that would be beyond impractical).
But yes, a dedicated site should not have a problem with buying some games for review when review copies are not provided.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on August 26, 2009, 04:48:35 AM
Most of the time, when I see the "Don't have a review copy yet" excuse, that's BEFORE the game comes out; when the game does come out, they do fork over and buy the game and review it if they think it'll draw interest from their audience. 
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on August 26, 2009, 09:30:15 AM
Most of the time, when I see the "Don't have a review copy yet" excuse, that's BEFORE the game comes out; when the game does come out, they do fork over and buy the game and review it if they think it'll draw interest from their audience. 

I regularly see it for less popular games.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on August 26, 2009, 09:52:19 AM
Well, if the games are less popular, then they have to decide if covering the game is worth it for their budget.  Can't expect them to buy every game that comes out.

If you're going to argue that they don't regard any 3rd party Wii title as relevant enough to purchase for review, well then I'll concede that point; that is often the case.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 26, 2009, 04:55:59 PM
Pretty sure sites like IGN buy almost everything out there.  They review all sorts of crap, which is what drove Damon far far away (although he's still stuck w/ some of the less than desirable Wiiware titles).
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: mac<censored> on August 26, 2009, 06:12:09 PM
It seems like it might be kinda fun to review real crap, if you don't have to personally pay for it, and have a ready venue in which to gleefully expression your derision...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on August 27, 2009, 01:54:45 AM
Well, if the games are less popular, then they have to decide if covering the game is worth it for their budget.  Can't expect them to buy every game that comes out.

If you're going to argue that they don't regard any 3rd party Wii title as relevant enough to purchase for review, well then I'll concede that point; that is often the case.

I mean minor games like Little King's Story.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: mac<censored> on August 27, 2009, 02:25:25 AM
I mean minor games like Little King's Story.

Speaking of which, what's the consensus on this?

I've been looking forward to this game for ages, and it's coming out here soon...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Nick DiMola on August 27, 2009, 04:28:34 AM
I mean minor games like Little King's Story.

Speaking of which, what's the consensus on this?

I've been looking forward to this game for ages, and it's coming out here soon...


http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/reviewArt.cfm?artid=19862
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on August 27, 2009, 05:18:40 AM
Let's just dump third parties and move on to the next best thing: FOURTH PARTIES.

Folks, these parties can move through space AND time.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 27, 2009, 08:47:15 AM
Let's just dump third parties and move on to the next best thing: FOURTH PARTIES.

Folks, these parties can move through space AND time.

Is Actiblizzion considered a 4th party? they did travel back in time to bring us the Wii port of CoD:MW and that will be taking up space on the store shelves.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 27, 2009, 09:11:03 AM
Aren't those just 3rd parties that come-n-go/close up shop?

time:  they do some work for a while, then, not

space:  one month there's a building full of employees, the next, it's space for lease
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 27, 2009, 09:27:22 AM
Aren't those just 3rd parties that come-n-go/close up shop?

time:  they do some work for a while, then, not

space:  one month there's a building full of employees, the next, it's space for lease

:GRIN;
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on August 27, 2009, 10:13:10 AM
Third parties will never see straight towards Nintendo thanks to Sony and their hate. Yet for all the love third parties gave the PSX/2, I really doubt alot of the games made for the system (sans Resi and FF) sold well. This is basically happening with the PS3/360. They show alot of unbiased love towards HD, tout big budgets, and the game bombs, hard.

If Wii was HD (which is isn't due to Nintendo not wanting to sink money into a ship that may have sunk), it wouldn't get the amount of half-assed flak it gets from third parties losing money. Only difference is we would get games in colors other then BROWN. And the game budgets would've increased for Nintendo's studios.

Also, let's look at Hideo Kojima, my favorite game person. Nothing says "troll" like the fact he's still being forced to make MGS games.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on August 27, 2009, 12:02:19 PM
Also, let's look at Hideo Kojima, my favorite game person. Nothing says "troll" like the fact he's still being forced to make MGS games.

Even worse, he's butchering Castlevania as we speak.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on August 27, 2009, 04:18:33 PM
That, and despite all his love for the original Mario, Shiggy and Smash Bros, he treats us Nintendo fans like devils spawn.

I wonder when those Konami shackles will be undone.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 27, 2009, 04:30:06 PM
Third parties will never see straight towards Nintendo thanks to Sony and their hate. Yet for all the love third parties gave the PSX/2, I really doubt alot of the games made for the system (sans Resi and FF) sold well. This is basically happening with the PS3/360. They show alot of unbiased love towards HD, tout big budgets, and the game bombs, hard.

If Wii was HD (which is isn't due to Nintendo not wanting to sink money into a ship that may have sunk), it wouldn't get the amount of half-assed flak it gets from third parties losing money. Only difference is we would get games in colors other then BROWN. And the game budgets would've increased for Nintendo's studios.

Also, let's look at Hideo Kojima, my favorite game person. Nothing says "troll" like the fact he's still being forced to make MGS games.

Are you really saying that third parties choose not to publish games on the Wii because Sony badmouths Nintendo?  You know, as opposed to reviewing data and sales from other 3rd party Wii sales.....
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 27, 2009, 04:57:17 PM
If reviewing data and sales means depending on game industry "analysts," then Sony playing Spin the Bottle to decide what 3rd parties should do with Wii is just as plausible.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on August 27, 2009, 06:08:48 PM
If reviewing data and sales means depending on game industry "analysts," then Sony playing Spin the Bottle to decide what 3rd parties should do with Wii is just as plausible.
Pro just answered your question, D.

Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 27, 2009, 06:47:04 PM
If reviewing data and sales means depending on game industry "analysts," then Sony playing Spin the Bottle to decide what 3rd parties should do with Wii is just as plausible.

Who the hell needs analysts?  Just look at the numbers for mature titles in the last 18 months. 
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 27, 2009, 09:34:40 PM
COMPANIES NEED ANALYSTS.  Who the hell do you think they hire to look at those numbers?  Famous Game Designers like Shigeru Miyamoto?  They pay analysts $$$$$ to provide "questionable" "advice" to support/confirm the "questionable" "ideas" they flutter in their little bird brains to achieve the terrible performance we've seen already.

Look at what mature titles were released AT ALL in the last 18 months.  Look at which of those mature titles looked like successful regular any-platform mature titles you'd see in the past 18 years.  Look at who DIDN'T BOTHER to release regular mature titles.  Without the regular streams of mature titles competing in that same casual platform, how the hell can valid comparisons be made?

BUT WAIT, you don't have to answer ANY OF THAT, cuz the companies aren't going to pay attention to interwebbers like you.  Or I.

They're going to hire analysts for that.

Remember, analysts said "PS3 will be the real winner by a long way by end of 2007, 2008, 20XX, etc.  Bet BIG on the PS3, game publishers!"
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on August 27, 2009, 10:13:09 PM
Quote
Are you really saying that third parties choose not to publish games on the Wii because Sony badmouths Nintendo?  You know, as opposed to reviewing data and sales from other 3rd party Wii sales.....

If that were true, I expect all Japanese third parties to make 100% Wii games starting yesterday, as Wii is home to the most successful third party game in Japan.

Or they'll just keep dipping into the data until they get the results they want, despite all this "objective" study.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Djunknown on August 27, 2009, 11:58:10 PM
An addendum (http://www.destructoid.com/addendum-nintendo-of-america-needs-to-stfu-ajpg-144494.phtml) to the editorial I put up a little while ago. Basically, its not a attack at Nintendo directly, but on NoA. As the author notes in the beginning:

Quote
Although I wasn't totally sold on the Wii at first, at this point in its life cycle, all of my initial gripes with the system (weak online, storage space issues, limited 3rd-party line up) have more or less been fixed. Even if they weren't, the console's library would still be a better fit for me than what the other home consoles have going on right now. The PS3/360's focus on 3D "realistic" graphics, Hollywood action movie-style scenarios, and online competition just isn't for me. Sure, the 360 and the PS3 each have seven or eight exclusives that I truly love, but that's nothing compared to the over thirty Wii games that I consider "must-own" titles.

Then we get to the nitty gritty:

Quote
Now, I don't want to duplicate too much of what Jim said in his article, but I do need to start off by restating the most obvious problem with NoA: they lie, and badly. Of all the "in defense of Nintendo" blogs and comments I've read over the years, I've never heard this point disputed. NoA figureheads like Reggie, Cammie, and Denise come off as untrustworthy car salespeople at best, and underhanded politicians at worst. They are liars, and we know it.

A few more choice quotes:

Quote
NoA won't publish risky, potentially unprofitable games like Fatal Frame IV, Captain Rainbow, Trace Memory 2, Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland, Mother 3, Disaster: Day of Crisis, and many others, because they care more about the bottom line than they care about distributing art. Where NoJ tries to make enough money so they can make more games, NoA only publishes games so they can make more money. That's the fundamental difference between an artist and businessman, or in this case, an art dealer.

Quote
What do you think Nintendo of Europe thought when Reggie publicly dissed Disaster: Day of Crisis just after it launched in the UK? If someone who worked for NoE had said that, you can bet your ass they would have been fired that day. Not so with Reggie and the gang. The phenomenon smacks of something I call "the Michael Jackson effect." Really, who's going to tell Reggie that he comes off like a phony who could give a rat's ass about what Nintendo really stands for? Not someone who wants to keep their job, that's who.

Quote
I write this article not out of malice, but out of genuine nerd-concern. As you've probably figured out, I love Nintendo of Japan. Although a lot of people in America seem worried about the direction they're headed in, I'm not concerned at all, because they are still focused on putting games and gamers first. The problem with Nintendo and their public face all falls on Nintendo of America, who seem determined to put up barriers between Americans and the products of Nintendo of Japan.

So what do you think? Is NoA part of the problem? Did NoA make the right call by not releasing Captain Rainbow, Disaster: Day of Crisis and so on?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on August 28, 2009, 01:08:05 AM
So what do you think? Is NoA part of the problem? Did NoA make the right call by not releasing Captain Rainbow, Disaster: Day of Crisis and so on?

Yeah, I saw that article pop up earlier in the day and overall I can find little to argue with.  Nintendo of America just seems extremely unwilling to experiment with localizing Wii games, and I find it hard to believe that all of that is under Nintendo Corporate's orders.  As the writer notes, if Nintendo Corporate just dictates to Reggie what it wants brought over, why do we need Reggie in the first place?  Even as recent as the GameCube era Nintendo of America was willing to do a little experimentation (after all, this is the company that brought over Baten Kaitos Origins and ensured it got a fantastic localization when there wasn't a chance in hell of that game selling well), but ever since the Wii became this mass-market sensation they've just been rather meh.  I have no problem with their work (Nintendo's localizations are better than ever), just that there doesn't seem to be any ambition or passion into the customer service side of the business.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on August 28, 2009, 09:41:51 AM
Disaster: DOC has no problem coming over here, it's action with a healthy amount of cheese.

Captain Rainbow, from what I read, has some questionable content that makes me think Treehouse would have a hellish time trying to translate. Figuring out Birdo's gender would be funny... to the long time Nintendo fan, but some people might find that offensive.

And Nintendo skipping over games isn't new. It took NoA an entire GBA generation to bring Starfy over, it took them TWO to get Sin and Punishment. They can bring out the games, they just take their sweet time...

And lose alot of their fans in the process.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 28, 2009, 09:46:27 AM
Nintendo is going about this "OK" from a business standpoint.  From my customer standpoint, I simply want access to local versions of these games.  But if these games have shown to be niche-niche-flop-bomb-tanks, Nintendo's not going to serve just a handful of interested interwebbers.

I bet it's related to why they historically didn't bring over Japan's customer reward goodies, and why we see less (and weaker) pre-order goodies for localized Japanese games across the board:  the logistics aren't favorable.  USA is much larger geographically, larger in market, yet less dense in gamer population than Japan, so it's not unreasonable to say it'll cost much more to send these freebies out (and how much should be produced in the first place?).  So in the case of the games, why commit resources to send them out to meet a severely niche percentage of the audience?  Maybe 2 copies to every GameStop?  More like the GameStops and retailers at large aren't budging to request stock for them or have shown initial interest in the first place; probably not worthy of etailer-exclusive or Wal-Mart exclusive either.  Electroplankton, lucky you, you're certainly special.

More later...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on August 28, 2009, 10:04:56 AM
What's funny about that editorial is he acts like Nintendo Co. Ltd. ("Nintendo of Japan" doesn't exist) is somehow tied down by NoA's decisions, as if NoA is the parent company.

Like Rorschach says, "God saw everything that went on that night, and he didn't seem to have a problem with it."

And Nintendo not localizing high quality video games is probably a strategy to get third parties to not be scared off by Nintendo's dominance of their own platform, due to high quality video games that sell well made by Nintendo.  Of course, that was just a ruse by third parties to get Nintendo to stop publishing some games so they can continue to ignore the Wii and hopefully drive down demand for the Wii, because they hate it (and this accusation is supported by the facts and will stand until major movement turns in Nintendo's favor from third parties.)

And there's also the "grass is greener" factor, where some of these games are only loved because they "AREN'T" over here.  I mean Trace Memory 2?  The first game was a poster child for Nintendo being "casual" now it's some kind of necessary bone to throw hardcores?  Puh-leeze.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 28, 2009, 11:03:05 AM
...later is NOW.

Another Code Revolution - do want.  no questions asked.  These advenchuure games shouldn't but limited to just DS and people's fond memories of old distant years of innocent gaming.

Disaster: Disaster in Localization - do want.  I hear it's a neat, likable game, according to some Aussies.  But it's more like a game you'd expect from some other Japanese publisher like Namco and not a robust, thoroughly QA/QC'd Nintendo product, a quirky instance that makes you question why Nintendo bothered to authorize this one real-world-setting action game while having no hint of plans to make any other action games.

Fatal Frame - do want, in theory.  I heard it's broken.  Grasshopper was hired to make the game, Tecmo had oversight over Grasshopper, Nintendo published the game for Tecmo.  Nintendo deemed the game was broken, Tecmo didn't care to fix anything, and Grasshopper is spending their time wisely not dealing with Tecmo anymore.  Nintendo is the big loser once again, having to deal with Tecmo for Other Mush.  I don't want a broken horror game; I've played and completed Obscure: The Aftermath.

==GAMECUBE==

Baten Kaitos and Tales of Symphonia, from my understanding, were lucky to exist outside of Japan because Nintendo was desperate for meaty 3rd Party games and Namco wanted a bigger RPG presence in the West and take advantage of a platform with little competition, so Nintendo went ahead and paid the bill for localization and helped promote the titles.  That was nice of them, bringing decent new product to new audiences in a substantial way.

==Wii==

Fast forward to Wuu, and I'm sure Nintendo expected 3rd Party support by simply being the market leader, without the necessity of moneyhats.  Localization?  3rd Parties shouldn't need help with localization!  They're big grand ol' 3rd Parties!  They shouldn't have trouble funding projects they're committed to!  If they care, they'll do what they need to do.  To compete, they have to... COMPETE.  But since they don't make the kinds of games Nintendo does, then they don't really have competition to worry about!  Just release those 3rd Party games as 3rd Party game makers do.  Nintendo shouldn't have to lift a finger for them, cuz 3rd Parties are so smart and powerful together and way more important to the industry than Nintendo.

Nintendo is doing the righteous thing, saying "those guys can figure it out for themselves."

Can they?

=D
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: DAaaMan64 on August 28, 2009, 07:20:27 PM
I can let you know how I feel about Disaster. I'm partially through it. I'll get back to you once I'm further.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 28, 2009, 08:46:48 PM
Wow.  Its so strange that 3rd parties refuse to make mature titles for the Wii when clearly, they would sell millions.  Strange business decision.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on August 28, 2009, 09:28:42 PM
Wow.  Its so strange that 3rd parties refuse to make high-quality titles for the Wii when clearly, they would sell millions, should they be high-quality, competitive to Nintendo products, and marketed as if they were proud of their effort.  Strange business decision.

Fixed.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Infernal Monkey on August 28, 2009, 09:45:05 PM
(http://i25.tinypic.com/35359p5.gif)

I must say, those are some really goods points Deguello, have you ever considered being a consultant at Capcom or Ubisoft?  Sounds like they could use someone like you to finally straighten them out.  Hell, I'd even attach this post to your resume.

Have you ever considered being a consultant at the fertilizaer factory? Sounds like they could use someone like you to supply a steady stream of manure simply by opening your mouth.

"HURK DURK HI GUYS"
"Whoa D_Average, not so loud, you're overflowing the bags!"
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 28, 2009, 10:25:46 PM
Wow.  Its so strange that 3rd parties refuse to make high-quality titles for the Wii when clearly, they would sell millions, should they be high-quality, competitive to Nintendo products, and marketed as if they were proud of their effort.  Strange business decision.

Fixed.

So it sounds like you're saying The Conduit was "low quality", and High Voltage/Sega marketed it as if they were ashamed of it?  Exactly.

I'm sure you'll throw together another long winded Sean Malstrom wannabe type post up to weasel your way out of this, but the reality is, there are many well produced games for the Wii like The Conduit that just didn't sell well, because the market just isn't there anymore, which is why third parties are hardly investing in similar titles.  Its really that simple Jughead.

Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on August 28, 2009, 11:07:34 PM
Quote
So it sounds like you're saying The Conduit was "low quality", and High Voltage/Sega marketed it as if they were ashamed of it?  Exactly.

Umm... what if I am?  The Conduit is a decent enough game but it wasn't the best in the whole world.  It got automatic hype because it was a game from a third party that seemed to give a damn and because that's just how Sega does these things, but still, this is a new IP from an then unknown developer.  That's risky, period.  And one game doesn't make a trend.  And speaking of existing markets, Sega released Daisy Fuentes Pilates or something on Wii recently, ready to capture that "obviously there" Wii Fit market, except it bombed.  So, of Sega's Wii games, the "bombs" of The Conduit and Madworld, have actually performed better than their "sure things."

What if was Sega's name that was the problem?  Or, heck third parties in general.  See what making mostly forgettable shovelware for two years will get you.  You'll probably still say something like "I don't like Nintendo's Wii game lineup," but nobody can argue that Nintendo doesn't make the best games for the Wii, and this is reinforced by third parties making nothing but garbage for two years.  So when they actually start struggling financially and realize that they probably should have made better Wii games from the start, it will be really slow going to earn back the userbase's trust in non-Nintendo games.  I mean seriously, if you were a Wii-only owner (like the majority of gamers probably are, just liek most only owned a PS2 last gen) would you seriously buy something that wasn't by Nintendo, now, at this juncture?  I at least would understand the skittishness.

Quote
I'm sure you'll throw together another long winded Sean Malstrom wannabe type post up to weasel your way out of this, but the reality is, there are many well produced games for the Wii like The Conduit that just didn't sell well,

There's lot of well produced anythings that didn't sell well anywhere.  Bionic Commando bombed on PS360, ASH bombed on DS.  That doesn't mean anything.

Quote
which is why third parties are hardly investing in similar titles.

Whelp, the ball's in their court.  As well as their financial struggles.

Quote
Its really that simple Jughead.

OK, this is where I tell you that, yes, everybody here can see you've come up with a cute diminutive nickname for me in the form of "Juggalo," and that you think I am the "Fred Phelps" of the Nintendo fans here, who also have "Objectum Sexuality" which basically means we have sexual relations with our consoles, and that you have included me, by my new nickname, in a list of other people you don't like in your signature and your custom forum title (which you have to turn on, by the way, or nobody can see it.)

But see, you're basically trolling me with every post now.  And everybody here, even the ones who disagree with you, has given you more respect than you have returned in kind for the various insults you have thrown around.

You probably don't like me, but I like it here and have been here for a really long time, and have been a mod here on and off.  I think it would be wise to start looking for greener pastures, before somebody reports this to a mod and you get forced out.  But that's just me.  It's your call.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Berto2K on August 28, 2009, 11:24:17 PM
Quote
So it sounds like you're saying The Conduit was "low quality", and High Voltage/Sega marketed it as if they were ashamed of it?  Exactly.

Umm... what if I am?  The Conduit is a decent enough game but it wasn't the best in the whole world.  It got automatic hype because it was a game from a third party that seemed to give a damn and because that's just how Sega does these things, but still, this is a new IP from an then unknown developer.  That's risky, period.  And one game doesn't make a trend.  And speaking of existing markets, Sega released Daisy Fuentes Pilates or something on Wii recently, ready to capture that "obviously there" Wii Fit market, except it bombed.  So, of Sega's Wii games, the "bombs" of The Conduit and Madworld, have actually performed better than their "sure things."

What if was Sega's name that was the problem?  Or, heck third parties in general.  See what making mostly forgettable shovelware for two years will get you.  You'll probably still say something like "I don't like Nintendo's Wii game lineup," but nobody can argue that Nintendo doesn't make the best games for the Wii, and this is reinforced by third parties making nothing but garbage for two years.  So when they actually start struggling financially and realize that they probably should have made better Wii games from the start, it will be really slow going to earn back the userbase's trust in non-Nintendo games.  I mean seriously, if you were a Wii-only owner (like the majority of gamers probably are, just liek most only owned a PS2 last gen) would you seriously buy something that wasn't by Nintendo, now, at this juncture?  I at least would understand the skittishness.

Quote
I'm sure you'll throw together another long winded Sean Malstrom wannabe type post up to weasel your way out of this, but the reality is, there are many well produced games for the Wii like The Conduit that just didn't sell well,

There's lot of well produced anythings that didn't sell well anywhere.  Bionic Commando bombed on PS360, ASH bombed on DS.  That doesn't mean anything.

Quote
which is why third parties are hardly investing in similar titles.

Whelp, the ball's in their court.  As well as their financial struggles.

Quote
Its really that simple Jughead.

OK, this is where I tell you that, yes, everybody here can see you've come up with a cute diminutive nickname for me in the form of "Juggalo," and that you think I am the "Fred Phelps" of the Nintendo fans here, who also have "Objectum Sexuality" which basically means we have sexual relations with our consoles, and that you have included me, by my new nickname, in a list of other people you don't like in your signature and your custom forum title (which you have to turn on, by the way, or nobody can see it.)

But see, you're basically trolling me with every post now.  And everybody here, even the ones who disagree with you, has given you more respect than you have returned in kind for the various insults you have thrown around.

You probably don't like me, but I like it here and have been here for a really long time, and have been a mod here on and off.  I think it would be wise to start looking for greener pastures, before somebody reports this to a mod and you get forced out.  But that's just me.  It's your call.
+1,000,000
You da maaaaaan!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Infernal Monkey on August 28, 2009, 11:27:16 PM
I barely even bother with this place anymore, but just from popping my head into this thread every now and then, it seems D_Average has a weird obession with Deg. Like, seriously creepy weird. D_Average has been banned from countless other forums, I guess this is why. He latches onto some poor guy and like, cuts their name into his chest or something.

God damn, I shudder at the thought of what a complete social outcast D_Average must be in the real world.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Juggalo on August 28, 2009, 11:36:19 PM
Can you guys please stop talking about me.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on August 28, 2009, 11:58:01 PM
Wow.  Its so strange that 3rd parties refuse to make high-quality titles for the Wii when clearly, they would sell millions, should they be high-quality, competitive to Nintendo products, and marketed as if they were proud of their effort.  Strange business decision.

Fixed.

So it sounds like you're saying The Conduit was "low quality", and High Voltage/Sega marketed it as if they were ashamed of it?  Exactly.

I'm sure you'll throw together another long winded Sean Malstrom wannabe type post up to weasel your way out of this, but the reality is, there are many well produced games for the Wii like The Conduit that just didn't sell well, because the market just isn't there anymore, which is why third parties are hardly investing in similar titles.  Its really that simple Jughead.



Call of Duty: World at War. End of story.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Urkel on August 29, 2009, 01:03:09 AM
Malstrom must be doing something right if he can get under the skin of Mr. Cool Cat D_Average.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on August 29, 2009, 02:16:52 AM
Disaster: DOC has no problem coming over here, it's action with a healthy amount of cheese.

Healthy? That game has enough cheese to give you a heart attack!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: ShyGuy on August 29, 2009, 03:01:27 AM
I'm cutting your name into my chest Ferny.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_Lindy on August 29, 2009, 05:16:24 AM
Let's get this thread back to talking about the media, please.  Can all personal potshots, as well.

Thanks.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mop it up on August 29, 2009, 01:10:07 PM
So what do you think? Is NoA part of the problem? Did NoA make the right call by not releasing Captain Rainbow, Disaster: Day of Crisis and so on?
I think the quote from Ian Sane in my signature applies to this. Nintendo of America need to pretend they have artistic integrity and localize such games.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on August 29, 2009, 01:16:27 PM
So what do you think? Is NoA part of the problem? Did NoA make the right call by not releasing Captain Rainbow, Disaster: Day of Crisis and so on?
I think the quote from Ian Sane in my signature applies to this. Nintendo of America need to pretend they have artistic integrity and localize such games.

I"d love to play Captain Rainbow.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Infernal Monkey on August 29, 2009, 09:23:02 PM
I'm cutting your name into my chest Ferny.

<3 <3
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on August 30, 2009, 06:01:36 AM
VGChartz disproves that the Wii is doomed (http://news.vgchartz.com/news.php?id=4982&mp=1). In this case the pathetic media isn't VGC but the rest that seems to insist that the Wii is doomed despite being the market leader.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_Lindy on August 30, 2009, 09:12:09 AM
Saying the Wii is doomed is outright idiocy.  People that don't even like video games are going to buy one, and every kid on the planet that doesn't have one wants one.  As a group we can't even figure out who's buying them any more, same with the DS.  The Wii continuing to sell and be popular is like the sky being blue or the sun rising in the morning...it's just going to happen.  It's honestly not even an interesting story for me any more...Microsoft vs. Sony is much more intriguing because the conclusion to that one is as yet unwritten.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on August 30, 2009, 11:32:15 AM
Yes but somehow the media and the analysts act like Nintendo is doomed and Sony and MS are going to overtake them any minute. Any time the Wii's sales are down Nintendo is doomed, any time a big game releases Nintendo is doomed because they no longer have a big game upcoming, etc. It's really retarded.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 30, 2009, 12:42:46 PM
The more interesting story is how long the pathetic media can keep up their crying race against Nintendo.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on August 31, 2009, 04:02:11 PM
Will they use the Wii Wheel or GCN controller?

Will they use local multiplayer or Wi-Fi?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 31, 2009, 08:05:55 PM
That is an amazing contradiction.

Mario Kart DD is regarded as a non-casual classic, but is not online.

Mario Kart Wii is online like non-casuals demand, but is recognized for casual plastic waggle.

It's like the media insists on walking through a door, without actually opening it.  Kisser up against the board, face swelling red with determination.  They hope to eventually succeed, awaiting their moment of glory.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on August 31, 2009, 08:23:08 PM
So...

Sonic and the Black Knight was good, but Sonic carried a sword and it needed waggle, thus it got torn apart in reviews.

Sonic Unleashed has short good 2-D like Sonic stages which were over-shadowed by horrible beat em up levels that took up most of the game.

And...

Metal Gear Solid 4 is hailed a classic, but in reality it's one Japanese's developer angst fan fiction that teems with plot awfulness. Just like the Subspace Emissary. SAKURAI and KOJIMA are friends indeed!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on August 31, 2009, 09:31:59 PM
That is an amazing contradiction.

Mario Kart DD is regarded as a non-casual classic, but is not online.

Mario Kart Wii is online like non-casuals demand, but is recognized for casual plastic waggle.

It's like the media insists on walking through a door, without actually opening it.  Kisser up against the board, face swelling red with determination.  They hope to eventually succeed, awaiting their moment of glory.

I didn't see reviews going after Mark Kart Wii for the Wii Wheel.  They went after it for the cheap rubberband AI the series has used for years and a perceived lack of depth in the powersliding due to the need to remove snake-ing.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 31, 2009, 09:47:39 PM
I'm sorry, I've confused the media with non-casuals again.  They're so much one-in-the-same to me.  I'll do better next time.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on August 31, 2009, 09:50:22 PM
No, they did go after the Wheel.  They just clothed it in "ZOMG this game has been casualized for the gaming impaired."  While at the same time saying the game offered nothing new and was exactly the same as the previous games, yet again somehow different.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 31, 2009, 09:54:44 PM
The rubber band AI is no match for good driving.  I think this is the most gentlest AI in the series ever.  Countless casual wheelers have achieved the Golden Wheel.  And removing snaking hasn't reduced depth, cuz it's relocated the focus back onto driving, where driving with the wheel's subtle nuanced movements involves more depth than analog masturbation.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on August 31, 2009, 10:46:41 PM
That is an amazing contradiction.

Mario Kart DD is regarded as a non-casual classic, but is not online.

Mario Kart Wii is online like non-casuals demand, but is recognized for casual plastic waggle.

It's like the media insists on walking through a door, without actually opening it.  Kisser up against the board, face swelling red with determination.  They hope to eventually succeed, awaiting their moment of glory.

I didn't see reviews going after Mark Kart Wii for the Wii Wheel.  They went after it for the cheap rubberband AI the series has used for years and a perceived lack of depth in the powersliding due to the need to remove snake-ing.

I agree.  I read a lot of reviews and the consensus was the wheel was a cool bonus since it was not required.  In addition to the AI, the game was rightly knocked for appearing so similar to the DS version, a lack of moving the series forward.  How I miss the awe of seeing Mario Kart 64 for the first time after playing the snes version for years. 
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mop it up on August 31, 2009, 10:50:08 PM
I didn't see reviews going after Mark Kart Wii for the Wii Wheel.  They went after it for the cheap rubberband AI the series has used for years
The funny thing about that is that the game actually has less rubber-banding than previous versions.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on August 31, 2009, 11:04:23 PM
I didn't see reviews going after Mark Kart Wii for the Wii Wheel.  They went after it for the cheap rubberband AI the series has used for years
The funny thing about that is that the game actually has less rubber-banding than previous versions.

True, but it had even more cheap item usage than in previous versions, so it balanced out.

And regarding the Wii Wheel, most reviews I saw just commented on how it was kind of silly, but if you didn't want to use it you didn't have to so you could always just use the nunchuck + wiimote.  Some even commented that the Wii Wheel controlled very well, but it just wasn't their thing (I think that was IGN's remark).
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 01, 2009, 09:06:15 AM
I'll just post this here.

"Nintendo to let 3rd parties lead the way.  Fans, press, and industry figures complain about the lack of compelling Nintendo software on the DSi."

(my prediction)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on September 10, 2009, 10:40:58 AM
If that comment was really made, Nintendo would receive +100 WiFi battle points in it's Mario Kart Wii race.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 15, 2009, 09:59:00 PM
Gamespy on Scribblenauts

http://ds.gamespy.com/nintendo-ds/scribblenauts/1024739p1.html (http://ds.gamespy.com/nintendo-ds/scribblenauts/1024739p1.html)

Quote
Even with the flaws in Scribblenauts' controls and the level editor -- which only allows you to make levels for use on your own card, and not share them with others -- it holds a special place in my heart for being the most fun I've ever had improving my vocabulary.

Turns out it has wi-fi that lets you share with your friends. Oops.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 15, 2009, 10:22:32 PM
Gamespy on Scribblenauts

http://ds.gamespy.com/nintendo-ds/scribblenauts/1024739p1.html (http://ds.gamespy.com/nintendo-ds/scribblenauts/1024739p1.html)

Quote
Even with the flaws in Scribblenauts' controls and the level editor -- which only allows you to make levels for use on your own card, and not share them with others -- it holds a special place in my heart for being the most fun I've ever had improving my vocabulary.

Turns out it has wi-fi that lets you share with your friends. Oops.

YAY for gaming comprehension!!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on September 16, 2009, 03:33:24 AM
Gamespy completely hit the shitter when they redesigned the site and instead of posting any news mostly just posted "humorous" crap. Before then the site was somewhat useful as a source of news and some reviews but since then... **** off.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on September 16, 2009, 08:17:02 AM
Gamespy on Scribblenauts

http://ds.gamespy.com/nintendo-ds/scribblenauts/1024739p1.html (http://ds.gamespy.com/nintendo-ds/scribblenauts/1024739p1.html)

Quote
Even with the flaws in Scribblenauts' controls and the level editor -- which only allows you to make levels for use on your own card, and not share them with others -- it holds a special place in my heart for being the most fun I've ever had improving my vocabulary.

Turns out it has wi-fi that lets you share with your friends. Oops.

It's possible they got a review build that didn't have that feature.  That has been known to happen before, though I can't remember the name of that game at the moment.  It caused some trouble with some magazine publication in Europe, I believe.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: EasyCure on September 16, 2009, 08:27:20 AM
Gamespy on Scribblenauts

http://ds.gamespy.com/nintendo-ds/scribblenauts/1024739p1.html (http://ds.gamespy.com/nintendo-ds/scribblenauts/1024739p1.html)

Quote
Even with the flaws in Scribblenauts' controls and the level editor -- which only allows you to make levels for use on your own card, and not share them with others -- it holds a special place in my heart for being the most fun I've ever had improving my vocabulary.

Turns out it has wi-fi that lets you share with your friends. Oops.

It's possible they got a review build that didn't have that feature.  That has been known tio happen before, though I can't remember the name of that game at the moment.  It caused some trouble with some magazine publication in Europe, I believe.

It's still the publications responsibility to include some kind of editors note, that could of read as simply as follows:

*Editors note: Our writers here at Gamespy were testing the game under a preview build and certain features might not of been available.

or

*Editors note: At time of write up, our staff was working off a preview/early build of the game. Gamespy has since then confirmed with the publisher that X feature is implimented in the retail release

Easy enough i'd say.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on September 16, 2009, 08:57:09 AM
It's possible they got a review build that didn't have that feature.  That has been known tio happen before, though I can't remember the name of that game at the moment.  It caused some trouble with some magazine publication in Europe, I believe.

I think you mean Eurogamer reviewing some WMP game, the Wii they used for testing (a dev unit) had outdated firmware which seriously impacted the control quality.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on September 16, 2009, 01:16:07 PM
It's possible they got a review build that didn't have that feature.  That has been known tio happen before, though I can't remember the name of that game at the moment.  It caused some trouble with some magazine publication in Europe, I believe.

I think you mean Eurogamer reviewing some WMP game, the Wii they used for testing (a dev unit) had outdated firmware which seriously impacted the control quality.

Yeah, that's right.  It was Power Slam Tennis (or Grand Slam Tennis...I can't remember the proper name for the WMP Wii Tennis game) if I remember right.  They were having control issues because their firmware wasn't up to date or something.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 16, 2009, 01:18:15 PM
*Grand Slam Tennis
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Djunknown on September 23, 2009, 08:49:11 PM
An incomplete review (http://www.gamecritics.com/brad-gallaway/muramasa-the-demon-blade-review) about Muramasa.

Straight to the point:

Quote
Disclosures: This game was obtained via publisher and reviewed on the Wii. Approximately 3.5 hours of play were devoted to the single-player mode, and the game was not completed. There are no multiplayer modes.

The bolding is the author's emphasis.

Now I don't know a lot about the game in question (yeah, I know, bad Djunknown!), but what I do know is that not playing a game to completion is not a review. It can be impressions, previews, hands-on, whatever. But not a full review.

To top it off, it shows up on Metacritic. (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/muramasathedemonblade?q=Muramasa#critics) I double checked the original review to look for a number or letter score, but found none. But on reading Metacritics small italics:

Quote
If a critic does not indicate a score, we assign a score based on the general impression given by the text of the review.

So....uhhhh...double fail?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on September 23, 2009, 10:19:34 PM
An incomplete review (http://www.gamecritics.com/brad-gallaway/muramasa-the-demon-blade-review) about Muramasa.

Straight to the point:

Quote
Disclosures: This game was obtained via publisher and reviewed on the Wii. Approximately 3.5 hours of play were devoted to the single-player mode, and the game was not completed. There are no multiplayer modes.

The bolding is the author's emphasis.

Now I don't know a lot about the game in question (yeah, I know, bad Djunknown!), but what I do know is that not playing a game to completion is not a review. It can be impressions, previews, hands-on, whatever. But not a full review.

To top it off, it shows up on Metacritic. (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/muramasathedemonblade?q=Muramasa#critics) I double checked the original review to look for a number or letter score, but found none. But on reading Metacritics small italics:

Quote
If a critic does not indicate a score, we assign a score based on the general impression given by the text of the review.

So....uhhhh...double fail?

The score's there.  Gamecritics policy is to hide the score at the end of the review in invisible type so you have to highlight the space after the last word to see it.  That's to keep people from just looking at the score and moving on, emphasizing actually reading the review.  He gave it a 3/10, which given his text is perfectly justified.  I ended up liking Muramasa more than he did (I would have given it a 6-7/10 myself), but I can see how he could dislike it so much because it is extremely repetitive and relies heavily on its visuals instead of gameplay outside the bosses.  And read the comments below the review.  The author defends writing the review when he did during his playthrough, stating quite matter-of-factly that if the game can't draw your attention within 4 hours of play, it doesn't deserve to get finished.  Quite honest and to the point.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on September 23, 2009, 11:17:26 PM
Indeed, if it fails to be fun for 3.5 hours most people are going to give up on it even if it does become some kind of revelation later on.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: mac<censored> on September 24, 2009, 06:04:53 AM
Hmm, the same reviewer (Brad something) completely disses "Uncharted" -- a fantastically fun game -- which makes me rather doubt his taste...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Djunknown on September 24, 2009, 08:41:34 PM
Quote
The author defends writing the review when he did during his playthrough, stating quite matter-of-factly that if the game can't draw your attention within 4 hours of play, it doesn't deserve to get reviewed.

Fixed. Call it something else. Make it a blog entry, a rant. But don't call it a review.

One of the underlying assumptions I have about game reviews, is that the reviewer finished the game to completion(With the case of online multiplayer, MMO's, play through the game modes as much as possible). Is that too much to ask? Should all game reviewers just stop playing the moment they feel bored, write what they have, and call it a review?

I like this comment.

Quote
"Review" is commonly reserved for completed games, while "Impressions" applies to incomplete play-throughs. While the disclosure at the end is nice, titling this post as a "review" is a bit misleading.

And this is from a poster who liked it this...string of words and phrases...

P.S I did see the score upon further inspection, so I take that back at least.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on September 24, 2009, 09:29:05 PM
One of the underlying assumptions I have about game reviews, is that the reviewer finished the game to completion(With the case of online multiplayer, MMO's, play through the game modes as much as possible). Is that too much to ask? Should all game reviewers just stop playing the moment they feel bored, write what they have, and call it a review?

Alright, let me ask you a simple question: for the purposes of this discussion, I'm gong to assume that since you brought this up and are complaining about it that you have played Muramasa all the way through with both characters.  Otherwise, you'd just sound silly.  Now, looking at this review what have you seen in that post-3.5 hour playtime that would significantly change a person's impression of the game if they disliked what they had already played?  What game-changing addition suddenly makes the game worthwhile if you find it monotonous already?

I can tell you this: I have played through the game and beaten it with both characters, and the experience in hour 8 is the same damn experience in hour 1.  The only difference is the size of the special attacks, the damage they do, and the damage the enemies can do and receive.  Otherwise, it's the same damn game recycling the same damn dozen backgrounds over and over again.  Based on that, I say the critic was right to stop when he did before the monotony unduly influenced him to score the game even lower.  Now, if the game evolved or became deeper in some manner, I could agree with you.  But it doesn't.  What you see is what you get.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 25, 2009, 01:13:06 AM
"and the experience in hour 8 is the same damn experience in hour 1."

Whoa.  So my 1 hour just became EIGHT.  Wish I could do that with real life time.

"What you see is what you get."

It really is a schmup!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Link Link on September 25, 2009, 12:49:14 PM
One of the underlying assumptions I have about game reviews, is that the reviewer finished the game to completion(With the case of online multiplayer, MMO's, play through the game modes as much as possible). Is that too much to ask? Should all game reviewers just stop playing the moment they feel bored, write what they have, and call it a review?

Alright, let me ask you a simple question: for the purposes of this discussion, I'm gong to assume that since you brought this up and are complaining about it that you have played Muramasa all the way through with both characters.  Otherwise, you'd just sound silly.  Now, looking at this review what have you seen in that post-3.5 hour playtime that would significantly change a person's impression of the game if they disliked what they had already played?  What game-changing addition suddenly makes the game worthwhile if you find it monotonous already?

I can tell you this: I have played through the game and beaten it with both characters, and the experience in hour 8 is the same damn experience in hour 1.  The only difference is the size of the special attacks, the damage they do, and the damage the enemies can do and receive.  Otherwise, it's the same damn game recycling the same damn dozen backgrounds over and over again.  Based on that, I say the critic was right to stop when he did before the monotony unduly influenced him to score the game even lower.  Now, if the game evolved or became deeper in some manner, I could agree with you.  But it doesn't.  What you see is what you get.

If a person doesn't play it all the way through, how can he rate the rest of this game? By word of mouth from other people who have? Maybe the game is the same all the way through, I don't know. But even still, his job is to review the game, not to give it a shot for awhile and render a verdict.

Let's look at it this way. I've never seen the movie Apocalypse Now. Oh, I know what it is about and am familiar with the story and characters and actors in it. I've seen clips of the movie on various shows and read reviews on it before. I guess I should write a review on it. I'm clearly qualifed since appearantly it is ok to go by word of mouth when reviewing something. Tell you what. Just to be safe, I'll watch the first 20 minutes. I'm sure the experience of the first 20 minutes will be the same all the way through the whole film.

Compare this to an actual movie critic like Roger Ebert. There have been movies he absolutely hated. Heck, he published a couple books on reviews of movies he hated. And even though he didn't like the movie, he watched the whole thing. There are some movies he was hoping would just end, that sickened him. But he did his job and stuck it through. That is why, agree or disagree with his opinion, when he gives a review, it has more weight to it than someone who watched the first half hour. Really, what kind of credibility can one hope to establish by offering a review on the whole product when only sampling a part of it?

And why would you argue in favor of such sample reviewing?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: vudu on September 25, 2009, 12:53:42 PM
I stopped reading after you admitted to never seeing Apocalypse Now.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 25, 2009, 01:05:35 PM
/irony
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: ShyGuy on September 25, 2009, 01:19:03 PM
www.pixlbit.com lulz. Apparently, everyone is a game journalist these days.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 25, 2009, 01:25:56 PM
Is pixlbit a response to the "p____" state of NWR?  MYSTERY
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: vudu on September 25, 2009, 01:33:51 PM
It's pathetic they didn't even spell Pixel the correct way.  Talk about lazy.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 25, 2009, 02:22:09 PM
Is pixlbit a response to the "p____" state of NWR?  MYSTERY

I'd like to buy a vowel or three!!

But seriously, we have a very finicky site/forum relationship here.

We have a staff that will rip stories out of the forums and post them on the front page without a single mention that they were tipped off by the forums, which would help to encourage front-pagers to maybe venture into the forums and help build our "little" community.

Then we have the forum people that will see a thread posted in the talkback section without the actual story in the post, just a link leading to the front page, and we get upset that they won't just copy/paste the story into the forums instead forcing us to visit the front page for the story/article/editorial/interview.

Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 25, 2009, 02:50:44 PM
Transparency in location and content would be nice.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 25, 2009, 06:14:33 PM
It's nice to want things
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on September 26, 2009, 03:29:32 AM
If a person doesn't play it all the way through, how can he rate the rest of this game?

F, failed to be engaging enough to even warrant playing that far.

Just to be safe, I'll watch the first 20 minutes. I'm sure the experience of the first 20 minutes will be the same all the way through the whole film.

As Yahtzee said, declaring something **** in the first few hours is perfectly valid and professional but there is no guarantee that a good game will stay good so if it's fun you should keep playing, if it's not you can flame it. It's the weakest link that counts.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 26, 2009, 12:34:12 PM
This is a never-ending battle.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on September 28, 2009, 07:47:08 PM
It's the Never-Ending Horrible Game Reviews Story.

Not ever going to be made by Jim Henson Productions.

Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on September 29, 2009, 02:58:41 AM
Jim Hansen? The Never Ending Story just isn't right if it's not by Michael Ende (seriously, when I saw the movie I wondered why they stopped after the introduction!).
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Stogi on September 29, 2009, 10:22:05 AM
Because it told kids that acid was A-OK ;)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on September 29, 2009, 10:28:04 AM
And I corrected Jim Henson's name. What a terrible error.

And I believe that the game review industry as a whole, sans a couple of people, take acid. How else would someone give MGS4 a flawless score?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on September 29, 2009, 11:29:21 AM
First of all, I hope you guys realize that Pixlbit.com is actually Nick and Neal's personal project. May I remind you that they both have writing experiences as well as experiences attending events, meeting with PR people and getting review copies for NWR. So when they go into the creation of Pixlbit they come with the experience they have earned from all the events and people they have met while working with us. So please, don't resort to insulting them in this thread. They know what they are doing. Trust me.

Blacknmild: This is something that you may not like, but we don't get our stories from the forums. What we do is that if we find a story worth writing about we send each other through email messages the link, then someone writes a story up, have it edited, then its posted.

We will give credit to the forumer IF they sent us the link to the story, like we have done in the past (like when Unclebob alerted us that Flipnote was already available). We always encourage the readers to submit stories and we will give them credit if something is written.

So again, if we don't credit the forums in any way in our stories is because we found the story through other ways and we didn't notice it was posted on the forums. I suggest that if you want the forums to stand out more you send us the story the minute you are about to post it. Hell, even send us the link to the thread so we can read what is going on and catch up with any details we may have missed while we work on the story.

Finally, we still post full stories in the talkback thread. The ONLY stories we only posts snippets of are interviews and special features which don't happen often.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 29, 2009, 11:39:07 AM
Quote
First of all, I hope you guys realize that Pixlbit.com is actually Nick and Neal's personal project. May I remind you that they both have writing experiences as well as experiences attending events, meeting with PR people and getting review copies for NWR. So when they go into the creation of Pixlbit they come with the experience they have earned from all the events and people they have met while working with us. So please, don't resort to insulting them in this thread. They know what they are doing. Trust me.

I think people were teasing.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_pap64 on September 29, 2009, 11:41:10 AM
Quote
First of all, I hope you guys realize that Pixlbit.com is actually Nick and Neal's personal project. May I remind you that they both have writing experiences as well as experiences attending events, meeting with PR people and getting review copies for NWR. So when they go into the creation of Pixlbit they come with the experience they have earned from all the events and people they have met while working with us. So please, don't resort to insulting them in this thread. They know what they are doing. Trust me.

I think people were teasing.

I know, just reminding people about the site and who runs it.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: vudu on September 29, 2009, 11:42:12 AM
Sometimes I think Pap was born without a funny bone.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on September 29, 2009, 11:47:16 AM
You can't always tell right away if the person is being funny or not. It's just the way of life.

Just like you can't always tell if a game reviewer reviewed a game properly.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 29, 2009, 12:53:48 PM

Blacknmild: This is something that you may not like, but we don't get our stories from the forums. What we do is that if we find a story worth writing about we send each other through email messages the link, then someone writes a story up, have it edited, then its posted.

We will give credit to the forumer IF they sent us the link to the story, like we have done in the past (like when Unclebob alerted us that Flipnote was already available). We always encourage the readers to submit stories and we will give them credit if something is written.

So again, if we don't credit the forums in any way in our stories is because we found the story through other ways and we didn't notice it was posted on the forums. I suggest that if you want the forums to stand out more you send us the story the minute you are about to post it. Hell, even send us the link to the thread so we can read what is going on and catch up with any details we may have missed while we work on the story.

Finally, we still post full stories in the talkback thread. The ONLY stories we only posts snippets of are interviews and special features which don't happen often.

Your talking to me as if you didn't use to be a forumer.... how quickly people forget. You used to be a big thread poster with new stories and then severl hours to several days later NWR would finally get a story up about it. NWR was so behind on "current" news I'm sure thats a reason that You and Flames and many others got hired on.
Maybe if the staff frequented the forums more often, ot if the "submit a news story" page wasn't only linked through the front page (seriously, who goes there?) NWR could be up on everything when it happens instead of several days later after everyone already knows the story. I'm not saying anyone in the forums really cares or is looking for individual credit for dragging a news story here first, just that alot of the time a story is posted in the forums, discussion is had for sometimes days and then NWR makes an official story about it and doesn't even direct front pagers to the thread where the discussion is already in progress.

It's not a big deal, just a minor annoyance. I just don't see how Admins and whatnot can pretend that the whole forum they apparently watch over doesn't really exist and the info that is posted didn't really happen. You just happen to run across the news story 3 days later through an e-mail :rolleyes:
Just look in your own forums.

I guess the forums are just forums, because it wasn't NEWS until NWR posted it on the front page.

This place was once know as "The place where gamers go to bitch about everything". I'm just exercising my rights.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_Lindy on September 29, 2009, 06:30:54 PM
I guess the forums are just forums, because it wasn't NEWS until NWR posted it on the front page.

We don't come to the forums very much because we're busy running the site and writing content (apparently so people like you can sit there and bitch about how much it sucks, which really makes it all worthwhile, believe me).  If we ever grabbed news from the forums, we would give whoever posted the story credit (and we have done so in the past, like Pedro said).  We monitor all the news outlets and gets news up as quickly as we can.  Considering we're a small team doing this on a volunteer basis in our spare time, I think we do a very good job.

If you see news, be sure to submit it using the link on the front page.  Pedro and Luke are amazing newshounds, and it's honestly very seldom we get blindsided with anything these days.  If we do, we give credit.  That's just the way it is, and any conspiracy theories you may have are completely incorrect.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Stogi on September 29, 2009, 10:27:54 PM
I agree with BnM. It's not the credit he's worried about. His point is that you should read through the forums at least a couple times a day. Who knows? We may have something you overlooked when scouring the internet. We are, afterall, pretty loyal to this site and there's quite a few of us. Why not use the resource you took so long to develop?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on October 29, 2009, 09:47:54 AM
Decided to bump this thread because I read this.

http://nintendojo.com/editorials/view_item.php?1256626672 (http://nintendojo.com/editorials/view_item.php?1256626672)

I will admit it makes some good points (third excuse makers not putting enough effort). Yet that bit about the whiny-core Ninty fans wanting Nintendo third is completely stupid. Honestly, Nintendo would be back to rushing out their games again like they did in the GCN era. WII DO NOT WANT.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on October 29, 2009, 10:59:33 AM
From the above article:

"Instead of Soulcalibur: Legends, Wii owners should have Soulcalibur IV."

Are not both games now in the bargin bin of death?  No loss there.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on October 29, 2009, 11:08:03 AM
From the above article:

"Instead of Soulcalibur: Legends, Wii owners should have Soulcalibur IV."

Are not both games now in the bargin bin of death?  No loss there.

Wasn't Soul Calibur III "the bad one" in the mainline Soul Calibur franchise?  I don't see anything wrong with someone lamenting that we got the horrid hack & slasher instead of much more warmly-recepted fighting game.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 29, 2009, 11:09:38 AM
From the above article:

"Instead of Soulcalibur: Legends, Wii owners should have Soulcalibur IV."

Are not both games now in the bargin bin of death?  No loss there.

Wasn't Soul Calibur III "the bad one" in the mainline Soul Calibur franchise?  I don't see anything wrong with someone lamenting that we got the horrid hack & slasher instead of much more warmly-recepted fighting game.

Yeah SCIII is considered the bad one. I honestly don't have an opinion because I've only played SC1 and 4.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on October 29, 2009, 11:52:50 AM
You can only make it so flashy until it loses it's appeal.

Soul Caliber hit it's peek with SCII, but after SCIII it lost it's appeal to me. Not to mention shoe-horning Yoda and Darth into the fourth installment made me face-palm.

This is the problem with the article: it doesn't get most of the facts right. Nintendo is winning and making money. Third Excuse Makers, who gamble on HD billion dollar projects, are not. The ones who make a worth-while effort, like de Blob, will receive success. Others who half-ass their way around and declare it the Wii game to end all Wii games do not.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on October 29, 2009, 03:54:23 PM
Soul Caliber IV wasn't a bad game by any means, it just wan't anything to get too excited over, or bring up in an article as an example of Wii owners getting the shaft.  I think the loss of any version of Street Fighter 4 after the 360/PS3 are on their way to a second iteration of it is a bigger void.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on October 31, 2009, 09:48:42 AM
Soul Caliber IV wasn't a bad game by any means, it just wan't anything to get too excited over, or bring up in an article as an example of Wii owners getting the shaft.  I think the loss of any version of Street Fighter 4 after the 360/PS3 are on their way to a second iteration of it is a bigger void.
Street Fighter has skipped the past two Nintendo generations, so this is no big surprise.

Capcom has more or less made up for it with Tatsunoku vs. Capcom. Then again, Capcom is more or less dead to me since their GOOD developers have left (Platinum), they can't be assed enough to make PROPER Wii games (lol ports sell lololol), and they didn't advertise Zack & Wiki enough. Capcom is seriously the biggest 3rd party troll this generation.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on October 31, 2009, 09:59:51 AM
Soul Caliber IV wasn't a bad game by any means, it just wan't anything to get too excited over, or bring up in an article as an example of Wii owners getting the shaft.  I think the loss of any version of Street Fighter 4 after the 360/PS3 are on their way to a second iteration of it is a bigger void.
Street Fighter has skipped the past two Nintendo generations, so this is no big surprise.

Capcom has more or less made up for it with Tatsunoku vs. Capcom. Then again, Capcom is more or less dead to me since their GOOD developers have left (Platinum), they can't be assed enough to make PROPER Wii games (lol ports sell lololol), and they didn't advertise Zack & Wiki enough. Capcom is seriously the biggest 3rd party troll this generation.

I don't know about that.  I think they have stiff competition from Ubisoft for that title.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on November 02, 2009, 01:46:44 PM
That's a big question mark right there though. I think UBI realized that the Nintendo fanbase treats them like a meme and they had to put EFFORT into their Wii offerings.

Capcom, however, is driving right into that meme and drive off a cliff in the process.

Being a Nintendo fan allows you to twist symbolism into mocking the idiotic elements of gaming.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 11, 2009, 06:15:18 AM
Nintendo Drags U.S. Video-Game Market Lower as Wii Sales Slump (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601204&sid=aS9eSMcatcJM)
Quote
Dec. 11 (Bloomberg) -- Nintendo Co. led the U.S. video- game market to its eighth drop in nine months after sales of the motion-sensing Wii console tumbled, narrowing its lead over Sony Corp.’s PlayStation 3 and Microsoft Corp.’s Xbox 360.
[...]
Wii sales have fallen for nine consecutive months in the U.S. after a 20 percent cut in the price of Nintendo’s flagship machine failed to revive sales.

Ummm wat!?

Nintendo outsold PS3 and Xbox360 yet they are narrowing their lead?
Wii sales fall 9 straight months AFTER a 20% cut that happened at the end of Oct. 2009?
What freakin day is it? Where the hell is my calender?


WTF is going on here?
Atleast Reggie tries to cash a reality check....
Quote
“The record year of 2008 is very difficult to overlap,” Nintendo of America President Reggie Fils-Aime said in an interview yesterday. “I look at our performance and see it’s right on track with where we believed it would be.”
[...]
Nintendo’s Wii has been the top-selling console every month except one since its debut in 2006. More than 23 million have been sold in the U.S. in that time, Fils-Aime said. The company’s DS handheld device set a sales record last month at 1.7 million, he said. By comparison, Sony’s PlayStation Portable sold 293,900, according to NPD.

Then they quote this to show how dissapointing it is for the Wii to have outsold the competition for 35 of the last 36 months
Quote
Electronic Arts Inc. Chief Executive Officer John Riccitiello, head of the world’s second-biggest game publisher, said Nintendo could revive sales by further dropping its price to $150, he said.

“A lot of us are disappointed by the overall performance of the Wii,” Riccitiello said yesterday at the UBS AG Global Media & Communications Conference in New York.

to which Reggie only has to say
Quote
The Wii sold 2.04 million units in November 2008. The Wii has outsold Microsoft by 6 million units and the PS3 by 13 million units in the U.S., Fils-Aime said.

“This industry is cyclical in that a system’s sales peak in the third calendar year,” Fils-Aime said. “The fact that we’ve seen a decline year on year is standard.”

Am I doing this right? or am I seeing it all wrong?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on December 11, 2009, 06:40:39 AM
Remember, Nintendo doing well is bad for the game industry so the industry tries to change that.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on December 11, 2009, 07:56:30 AM
Remember, Nintendo doing well is bad for the game industry since media hounds and developer trolls need internet hits in order to survive.
Fixed.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Stogi on December 11, 2009, 09:08:10 AM
Why does rooting for Nintendo feel like voting for Ross Perot?

Please don't make this political. It's a simply analogy
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on December 11, 2009, 10:28:07 AM
Because we fans (which means basically us in the NWR forums) have more common sense then the gaming media and developers?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Stogi on December 11, 2009, 12:58:21 PM
I think you misunderstood.

What I'm saying is, no matter how much money Nintendo has and how much money they obtain, they still come out on the bottom.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 11, 2009, 01:06:56 PM
Wow, BlackNMild, I think you may have found the first actual case of media bias in this entire topic.  If this article were written 2 months ago, I could understand it because Wii sales were plummeting...but this was posted today after the Wii had strong October and November sales.  WTF?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Caterkiller on December 11, 2009, 01:25:39 PM
Wow, that really is something else. I wish Reggie would look at that and acknowledge it at next years E3. I just want him to stand in front of the press and say something what Black and Mild quoted up there. There are More Wiis in peoples homes than ANY other next gen home console right now! This industry baffles me how it works sometimes. At least square is giving us a real epic adventure along with Monster Hunter 3 and Dragon Quest 10. The last 2 games at least come from being number one, but nothing even remotely similar from the other companies. Why is that?

Out side of Mario, Metroid, and Zelda(unlikely) I hope we get games that will blow us away, and not just from Nintendo. Games that could see at least a million in sales.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 11, 2009, 01:44:00 PM
Monster Hunter 3 = Capcom
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 11, 2009, 02:01:06 PM
Crystal Bearers is not an epic adventure.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mop it up on December 11, 2009, 05:23:09 PM
It would seem that Tony Hawk of all people expresses an opinion I have about many reviews of Wii games:

http://www.thesudburystar.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2208571

Now, I haven't played Mr. Hawk's game, and judging by its scores it may not actually be very good. But I definitely feel that certain reviewers go into their reviews with the intention of ripping the game apart. One need look no further than Wii Music to see that this sort of thing does happen.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Invincible Donkey Kong on December 11, 2009, 05:30:25 PM
"an overpriced asco"

"RIDE is a bold departure for the franchise, which kicked o in 1999"

I on't know wht to mke of thes eviews either
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 11, 2009, 06:10:02 PM
needs diting
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Caterkiller on December 12, 2009, 12:03:02 AM
Look what Matt Casmassina wrote over at IGN. And I do agree with allot of it.

http://wii.ign.com/articles/105/1054621p1.html
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 12, 2009, 12:14:41 AM
You're all forgotten and abandoned Nintendo customers.  Feel free to sell your Wiis and leaving gaming to the superior customers of superior systems.  Selling your items to GameStop will also help spur that sector of the economy.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Invincible Donkey Kong on December 12, 2009, 12:29:12 AM
"With all due respect to Miyamoto, a proven gaming genius and innovator, that's just lazy"

Covered that already

That is one lazy game designer.

It makes my blood run cold, the things they say to one another.

He is shocked, SHOCKED, Nintendo does not emphasize graphics

Frankly my dear I don't give a darn.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 12, 2009, 12:35:52 AM
Look what Matt Casmassina wrote over at IGN. And I do agree with allot of it.

http://wii.ign.com/articles/105/1054621p1.html (http://wii.ign.com/articles/105/1054621p1.html)

Nice to finally see someone at a major Nintendo gaming site (and make no mistake: Matt Casmassina is probably the biggest proponent of Wii at IGN, and yes I know RFN handled this question in a recent show) goes after Nintendo for how frickin' lazy they are when it comes to doing any more than the bare minimum with their Wii products (for the most part.  As the article notes, there are a couple notable exceptions in Mario Galaxy and Zelda: Twilight Princess).  It's infuriating, because when Nintendo goes all-out it is truly a sight to behold.  It makes me wonder just how much creative energy gets snuffed at Nintendo because of tight budget constraints.

Sadly, it's also hard to fault them for doing this because clearly their lowest common denominator demographic doesn't care.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mop it up on December 12, 2009, 01:21:28 AM
Look what Matt Casmassina wrote over at IGN. And I do agree with allot of it.

http://wii.ign.com/articles/105/1054621p1.html
Sadly I have a similar sentiment. Nintendo used to feel more artistic but now it's all business, becoming number one has been a very bad thing for them as they now do as little as possible. The Nintendo of the Nintendo 64 era was the greatest because they had to put full effort into their games in order to compete with Sony. They've now regressed into NES-era Nintendo.

For me the Wii is really just the lesser of three evils.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on December 12, 2009, 01:29:23 AM
"With all due respect to Miyamoto, a proven gaming genius and innovator, that's just lazy"

I doubt Miyamoto would code that anyway. Would you rather see NSMBWii in 2010?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: mac<censored> on December 12, 2009, 01:43:20 AM
I dunno about Matt Casmassina, he's the IGN "nintendo guy", but every time I see something from him, it's bitching and moaning -- you'd think he was Ian Sane!

I got the feeling he got forced onto the nintendo beat, and doesn't really like it ...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 12, 2009, 02:29:48 AM
Actually I think he got stuck on the Nintendo Beat and wants to play games on the PS360 instead.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 12, 2009, 02:49:42 AM
Actually I think he got stuck on the Nintendo Beat and wants to play games on the PS360 instead.

Actually, he's Editor-At-Large now, so he can do whatever games he wants.  That he still goes on Nintendo Voice Chat (the IGN Nintendo podcast, which they put out about once every 1-2 months now) and reviews Wii games I think shows that he's still a big Nintendo fan.  I think he just gets irritated with Nintendo because (especially as a journalist who has worked the Nintendo beat for years) they have so much talent and so many resources, yet won't use them to their fullest.  That's the crux of most of his gripes with Nintendo, from Voice Chat to Online to now the lack of production values.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 12, 2009, 03:18:22 AM
So Matt's been going after Nintendo 2+ years now (as if his comments had real weight, hi Wii Music owners).  Woulda been nice to have him railing against 3rd parties for 2 years in a row.  Where are those editorials?  Afraid of cutting ties with publishers?  (must be nice getting free video games for an entire decade, even if you don't frequent the hookers)  Now all of a sudden it's bad for Nintendo to do the "bare minimum," despite delivering product that customers obviously desired.  People like Ian have been begging for a new 2D console Mario for ages.  BAM!  Wish granted, get back in your luxurious gamer couch and entertainment setup, Ian.

Even when Nintendo was going "all out" on GC, IGN criticized them for not selling much and that they would eventually go 3rd party.  It was normal to criticize how much GC lagged in sales back when "sales mattered," before Nintendo captured the lead, leading to several editorials.

It's like there's no way Nintendo can just BE.  Any position is worthy of criticism.

Behind in game sales?  How about maturing-up or appealing to the "mainstream consumer?"  LOL look how that "backfired"
Behind in system sales?  You suck no matter how many games you make.
Game release drought?  You suck when 3rd parties suck.  Nevermind that it takes time for you to go "all-out."
In the lead?  Must've dumbed yourself down.
Game is popular?  All people who like it suck.
Still in the lead?  Sales of non-gamer non-customers don't matter.  On second thought, sales don't matter.

Why is it bad for Nintendo to have a few games that probably had "lower" budgets when 3rd parties got to squeeze out SOFT-SERVED ASS-CREAM with at best "no" comment, and at worst a scathing indictment of NINTENDO for the 3rd parties' awful games?

What is "all-out?"  Spending more cash, more dev time on graphical assets?  Serious-game textures?  Hours of voice acting?  More stuff than it needs to be an instant gem?

Plus, when nintendo goes all-out, 3rd parties are shut out.  3rd parties "can't compete" with Nintendo's blockbusters, so they reposition their own products to a more favorable climate and schedule.  However, we often see these 3rd parties don't have their own blockbusters to reposition or speak of -- but that too is somehow Nintendo's fault.

So does Matt's concern mean Wii owners are RIGHT to scorn third party sub-efforts because, "Think of what they could've done if they spent more money or if this game were a main series installment"... is now a valid reason to dump on Nintendo?  Just WHAT solution is all this trying to converge on?  Nintendo go all-out in everything the possibly do?  Does Nintendo, as a company, have the infrastructure (need more product in less time?  increase staff and real estate) to do that without risking painful "restructuring" down the road?  Sony, MS, Activision, and EA seem like companies that have went all-out on "various" endeavors... risk-reward followed by losses & layoffs.

This would have the be the best site for Nintendo to visit. Only like 20 of us really discuss anything about the games, and it's all gold! I speak as if I go to many other gaming forums, which I don't but my point still stands. We are the only truely aware people on the video game internet. Well not even that, the world!

u sure bout that?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 12, 2009, 03:56:18 AM
"What does 'going all-out' mean?"  It's taking advantage of the full capabilities of your console, a console they decided would be substantively more powerful than the GameCube.  How about making your games look better than a half-assed GameCube title?  How about putting some amount of effort into the little details that make the difference between "a very good game" and "an instant classic", however minor.  The most infuriating thing about being a Nintendo gamer is seeing that they could do so many things with their games that would make them dramatically better, but because it doesn't make a 4-fold profit they don't.

You mock 3rd parties (and deservedly so), but what if the reason they phone it in so much is because they see that Nintendo can and has and think they can do the same?  Nintendo, through their lack of effort, has set the bar for what can sell on Wii.  At least the 3rd party situation has improved fairly dramatically these past few months, with titles such as A Boy & His Blob; Dead Space Extraction; and Silent Hill: Shattered Memories.  And just playing Shattered Memories, I've seen more effort in that game to take advantage of what the Wii can do than Nintendo has in years, and that's a multi-platform title.

Anyway, this is going radically beyond the confines of the topic ("the PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'"), so I'll sheath my sword on this from here on out.  Suffice to say I agree with Casmassina on this article.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: SixthAngel on December 12, 2009, 07:01:04 AM
Look what Matt Casmassina wrote over at IGN. And I do agree with allot of it.

http://wii.ign.com/articles/105/1054621p1.html (http://wii.ign.com/articles/105/1054621p1.html)

I have to say I think this article is worthless.

More than half the time he is bitching about Miis.  I thought everyone got over this long ago.  I repeat, he is still complaining about MIIS!!!
Nintendo makes an obvious design choice and people can't get over it because they actually chose something simple.  Things don't have to have have bloom just because they can.  Nintendo changed things.
They showed that adding superfluous effects on top of an already pretty design is entirely unnecessary.  I like how miis look.  I enjoy using them in games and I don't give a **** if they don't have visible arms or have some kind of crazy texture work.  Hell, I don't want it.

He doesn't even give the arguments that explain it any time.  He just lists a few and says they are bull**** because he says so.

He even says something like "Modern Warfare 2 sold 6 million copies so six million gamers value cutting edge audio and graphics."  NO.  It means 6 million people like Modern Warfare, it doesn't tell us **** about whether or not they care about audio or graphics.  The 360 stopped being cutting edge years ago as well.  Nothing chaps my ass like people bitching about audio in games.  Outside of terrible done sound it just simply isn't much of a selling point to anyone I have ever seen in real life.

Everyone always acts like the Nintendo of the past released so many more games and shot rainbows out of their ass.  Guess what, they didn't.  Nintendo then releases a phenomenal game like NSMBW and they are "lazy" because toad is there twice.  I can name somthing small like that from almost every game I've played in my entire life, but here it is proof positive that Nintendo somehow didn't give a **** about a game that miraculously turned out excellent.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 12, 2009, 09:53:09 AM
If someone post an article in the "PATHETIC" media thread stating that it is a pathetic article, and several people agree with the article as it is written, then should we assume those people to be admitting that they too are PATHETIC?

I have not read the article, but if even the person who posted it agrees whole heartedly with what is said in the article, why would it be posted in a thread where you would put articles from gaming "journalist" that you think were poorly written, heavily biased (without valid argument) and very mis-representive of whatever it was they were talking about?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on December 12, 2009, 09:58:03 AM
This article is spot on (and believe me, he rails on 3rd parties plenty, just listen to any NVC show from 2008).  He's b##ing b/c he's a huge Nintendo fan.  Did Metallica fans not b### when Load and Reload came out?  Do sports fans not b### when the owner trades away their best player to save cash?  Do you not b### when your girlfriend puts on 100 lbs?  The real reason Matt is b###ing is simply he knows what could be and we're just not saying it.

Animal Crossing City Folks pretty much sums it up.  Just enough to get by. 
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on December 12, 2009, 10:16:33 AM
The real reason Matt is b###ing is simply he knows what could be and we're just not saying it.
I would take his bitching with a grain of salt. Matt is one of the more whiny media hounds, and his article is akin to that of some whiny pre-teen school girl's angst on a FaceBook journal.


After all, he is part of IGNorant Gaming Network.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mop it up on December 12, 2009, 12:30:15 PM
Mr. Casamassina's article does belong here because it shows a lot of angst and doesn't provide enough of an argument to support his feelings, nor does it cover enough of the positive side of Nintendo and Wii. If I were to write such an article, it would be much more in-depth about both what I feel is wrong and what is right. Not that I'd care to write something like that though, for various reasons, including that I'm not trying to change anybody's opinion for better or worse.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: EasyCure on December 12, 2009, 01:04:37 PM
Nintendo, through their lack of effort, has set the bar for what can sell on Wii.

Yeah, Mario Galaxy/Brawl/NSMBW really set the bar for what can sell on Wii. Too bad those 3rd parties are trying to copy Nintendo in that regard oh wait...

For every "lackluster" Wii game released from nintendo themselves, there are other examples of other games from nintendo themselves that are so good (and go "all-out") that they count as double.

Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 12, 2009, 01:11:51 PM
What 3rd parties don't realize is that Nintendo puts lots of effort and care into each game even if the graphical output might not show it.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 12, 2009, 02:18:07 PM
I think Pro's post basically sums up the whole argument and closes it.  People who have addressed his posts have not even begun to argue his points and mostly either try to deflect or just repeat something as if a second time will make something wrong into something right.

Basically the points are:

1. Nintendo is heavily criticized no matter what their market positions are and no matter what games they make, what their content is, or how good they are.  No explanation has been given for this yet.  (Except maybe by the threads title)

2. Nintendo is accused of being lazy when, if accepted as true, third parties have been exponentially more lazy with ports to low-budget spinoffs to sometimes absolute dreck (Like Konami and Target Terror) and Matt has never thrown his obviously important opinion to dissuade any of them from their courses of action.

To quote Pro's post:  "Why is it bad for Nintendo to have a few games that probably had "lower" budgets when 3rd parties got to squeeze out SOFT-SERVED ASS-CREAM with at best "no" comment, and at worst a scathing indictment of NINTENDO for the 3rd parties' awful games?"  We're somehow still blaming Nintendo here for some reason.  Blaming the victim is always classy.  To respond to points that Nintendo "set a low bar," well, no.  They didn't do that with their first game for the Wii, which was Twilight Princess.  3rd parties chose to ignore it an set their standards to making games that were awful copies of Wii Sports.  Nintendo offering titles that had high and low budgets forced 3rd parties to willfully choose the low budget because THEY wanted to scrimp and save money, not Nintendo.  Suffice to say, this argument has holds no water based on actual data.

3.  Nobody here has addressed a dichotomy that has been an issue for two generations, being that Nintendo is hated when they make fantastic games because it drives third parties chances down, and only recently when Nintendo has had a few games that opted not to cost $60 million that third parties (and some fans) are now clamoring for Nintendo to make higher budget and more first party games because when the market is left to the choice of picking between no new Nintendo game for a while and the majority of 3rd parties' titles at any given moment, they will choose either nothing or older Nintendo titles.  This links to #1 in that Nintendo has literally no place to stand on the budget/frequency spectrum without being yelled at by a third party or a few vocal fans.

4. Pro makes an EXCELLENT point about Wii owners scorn for third parties because they are frequently low-budget drivel.  Now that it's apparently bad to not go "all-out" on titles, does that retroactively exonerate anybody chastised for not wanting to buy third party experiments or spinoffs?  It's like getting onto your honor student for not turning in his homework fast enough when the rest of the class hasn't even shown up for weeks.  The double standard is so obvious Stevie Wonder sees it.

And now to specific quotes:

Quote
At least the 3rd party situation has improved fairly dramatically these past few months, with titles such as A Boy & His Blob; Dead Space Extraction; and Silent Hill: Shattered Memories.

So... A Boy and his Blob. a literal 2-D games that uses none of the Wii's "power" is an example of a game that Nintendo should look to, when the game they are being bitched out about, NSMBWii, is miles ahead in both graphics and design.  And somehow a remake and a Dead on Announcement spinoff are not evidence of "phoning it in?"

Quote
This article is spot on (and believe me, he rails on 3rd parties plenty, just listen to any NVC show from 2008).

Ooo~ whoopee~  He certainly showed them on a Podcast.  How about an actual article?  And "plenty" is precisely the problem.  It should be "mostly" or "almost all of the time."  Just by having a different standard for third parties than Nintendo, he is allowing them to get a pass for making games much worse than any being discussed here.

Quote
He's b##ing b/c he's a huge Nintendo fan.

About like Lieberman is a Democrat. (Politics zomg)

Quote
The real reason Matt is b###ing is simply he knows what could be and we're just not saying it.

Actually the reason is because he wants to drive site hits and see if he can gain anything by peddling influence and threatening to use his site as a bully pulpit if he doesn't get his way, so far as to break a Samus toy in defiance, but we're just not saying that.  I mean jeez, he's a full grown MARRIED man who's acting like a spoiled brat and an internet troll at large.  It seems like everybody has to deal with that kind of idiot around them these days.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: mac<censored> on December 12, 2009, 03:46:51 PM
Not to mention the bizarre contention that Matt knows something...!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Guitar Smasher on December 12, 2009, 03:58:45 PM
It's an editorial piece, and he's got a right to his opinion.  I do think his peers at IGN have rubbed off on him the last few years.

Matt seems to understand that Nintendo had to change their gameplan in focusing on the expanded audience.  If they hadn't, they'd be doing less-than-GameCube-sales.  Credit him, because almost everyone else in the industry is blind to this idea.

Now the fallacy in his arguments is that hardcore gamers would be jumping on Wii if Nintendo would add more graphics/Dolby/epicness to its games.  This is not the case.  The hardcore gamers who like Mario and Zelda are already here (Matt falls into this group).  The others would just find another excuse not to like Wii.  Remember, the motto of the industry is whatever Nintendo does, is the wrong strategy.  Nintendo releases Mario Galaxy and they moan "another Mario game", then when they release NSMBWii they complain that they're doing so instead of Mario Galaxy 2.  Any excuse to discredit Nintendo.  It's like if we go back in time and fixed the 'purple lunchbox' mistake.  The hardcore gamers wouldn't have bought a GameCube still, because the 'purple lunchbox' mistake was never a real reason to ignore the GameCube.  It was just an excuse.

Now he isn't incorrect in saying Nintendo could have added more polish to WiiSports.  But to what end?  Would any of us enjoy the game more if it was high-def?  If you argue yes, then can I conclude you now enjoy the NES/SNES classics less?  Games are fun not because of how they look, but because of how they play.  Matt's talking like their girls; a 20 year old hottie would be more enjoyable to fool around with than a 50 year old mother.  But this just doesn't apply to video games.

Back to my opening statements, I think his attitude has been influenced by his peers.  When DS was first revealed he decried it.  But he later admitted that it was the right way to go.  If NSMBWii had released back then, I don't think he'd be complaining (seriously what's wrong with the graphics?).

Or he could be under pressure to get more page hits.  He did become head-editor recently, so there could be responsibilities he's dealing with.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 12, 2009, 04:21:46 PM
Quote
I don't think he'd be complaining (seriously what's wrong with the graphics?).

Nothing, and this will be very important in the coming years when graphical realism cannot be expanded any more than can be appreciated by even your more discerning graphics enthusiast.  It will sound as out of place as when Matt talked about Dolby Digital.

To see this in effect, travel back 5 years when the run-up to the DS and PSP was in full swing.  Matt, and staunch PSP backers of the "DS is the next Virtual Boy" type, also listed Dolby Digital capability for the PSP as a plus.  But anybody with half a logical mind asked the question "just how in the blue hell do you use Dolby Digital for a device that's smaller than just a center speaker?  Is Sony going to sell a "surround sound" helmet?"  Sound quality started reaching it's Zenith during the PS1/N64 era.  CD or MP3 quality is basically "good enough."  Now it's about composition quality and mood-setting skills, with Dolby Digital being virtually meaningless to your average, above average, and even most discerning game customer.  Complaining about it still shows a certain "out-of-touch" attitude.

The same will be for graphical capability (at least as raw numbers would have it).  Then it well be about art design and framerate.  1080p 60fps locked is the finish line.  Any higher than that is just pissing into a black hole along with throwing money into it, or you are Pixar making a movie.    Why Sony and MS are racing towards it with Billion dollar losses only to lose that bullet point for the next console and let Nintendo benefit from your hard work for pennies on the dollar is beyond me.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mop it up on December 12, 2009, 04:53:48 PM
What 3rd parties don't realize is that Nintendo puts lots of effort and care into each game even if the graphical output might not show it.
I agree somewhat. NSMBWii may lack in presentation but the level designs stand shoulder-to-shoulder with SMB3 and SMW. Something like Mario Kart Wii however, has other problems besides graphics such as a lack of features and poor balance. But then again, they've never put the same effort in Mario Kart games as their big series.

Needless to say it is a complicated matter, and I don't really care to dissect it as it is what it is.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 12, 2009, 05:49:26 PM
So... A Boy and his Blob. a literal 2-D games that uses none of the Wii's "power" is an example of a game that Nintendo should look to, when the game they are being bitched out about, NSMBWii, is miles ahead in both graphics and design.  And somehow a remake and a Dead on Announcement spinoff are not evidence of "phoning it in?"

Ok, congratulations on completely missing the point.  The point was that the 3rd parties are starting to put quality games on Wii, more than most people on these forums give them credit for.  A Boy & His Blob is an outstanding and inventive game (and, incidentally, yes I do think it looks better graphically than NSMBW), and that was why I brought it up.  As for Dead Space Extraction, for all the flak we gave EA for not making that game what we wanted, from all reports it is a great rail shooter with a particularly good emphasis on narrative that expands the Dead Space universe beyond the first game.  That doesn't seem like the dev team "phoned it in" to me.  As for Silent Hill: Shattered Memories, that you would even imply that it's somehow "phoned in" just because it has some similar elements to the first Silent Hill game is ridiculous (if you'd actually played it, you know the two games have practically nothing to do with each other outside characters and locations with the same names), and it makes use of just about every offline feature of the Wii (motion control, pointer control, the Wiimote microphone, etc.).

And who said anything bad about Mario Galaxy and Smash Bros.?  Even the original article points out that Nintendo has had some titles they put their full effort into.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 12, 2009, 10:35:24 PM
Quote
Ok, congratulations on completely missing the point.  The point was that the 3rd parties are starting to put quality games on Wii, more than most people on these forums give them credit for.

But they aren't what they could be, right?  They didn't go "all-out," right?  Isn't THAT the point?  Or is it one set of standards for Nintendo and another set for everybody else?

Quote
A Boy & His Blob is an outstanding and inventive game (and, incidentally, yes I do think it looks better graphically than NSMBW), and that was why I brought it up.

If NSMBWii was 2D sprites, I would have thought Nintendo phoned it in.  And there's no way IGN would have thought Sprite Mario would have been anything else either.

Quote
As for Dead Space Extraction, for all the flak we gave EA for not making that game what we wanted, from all reports it is a great rail shooter with a particularly good emphasis on narrative that expands the Dead Space universe beyond the first game.  That doesn't seem like the dev team "phoned it in" to me.

But it's not what it could have been, right?  Instead of giving Wii owners what they wanted, they get something else and a bunch of PR to defend the move.  And since it IS a rail shooter, the genre all third parties turn to when they just don't get it about the Wii, yes, they DID phone it in.

Quote
As for Silent Hill: Shattered Memories, that you would even imply that it's somehow "phoned in" just because it has some similar elements to the first Silent Hill game is ridiculous (if you'd actually played it, you know the two games have practically nothing to do with each other outside characters and locations with the same names), and it makes use of just about every offline feature of the Wii (motion control, pointer control, the Wiimote microphone, etc.).

Well, maybe it is a good game, but I wish Konami made it first instead of Target Terror.  Maybe they'd have a better reputation and their games may not be hard sells to a skeptical userbase of their own design.

Quote
And who said anything bad about Mario Galaxy and Smash Bros.?  Even the original article points out that Nintendo has had some titles they put their full effort into.

Care to expand on this?  Apparently Nintendo is the only one to have given a full effort.  For the games like Mario Galaxy, SSBB, Smash Bros, Mario Kart (yes, Mario Kart), and even Wii Fit, Metroid Prime, Zelda: Twilight Princess, no third company even comes close to Nintendo in effort.  Yet it's Nintendo's knuckles that get rapped for a perceived "drop in effort" while other companies get free passes to make awful games and concurring nods from the press when they blame Nintendo for their crappy games' failure (like you did.)  To bitch out Nintendo for "lack of effort" is injustice of the highest order when other third parties make schlock and laugh as they do it.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: SixthAngel on December 13, 2009, 02:07:40 AM
Quote
Ok, congratulations on completely missing the point.  The point was that the 3rd parties are starting to put quality games on Wii, more than most people on these forums give them credit for.

But they aren't what they could be, right?  They didn't go "all-out," right?  Isn't THAT the point?  Or is it one set of standards for Nintendo and another set for everybody else?

If Nintendo made a game called Perfect Cube where all you did was look at a perfect cube Matt would bitch that it only used 6 polygons.  It doesn't matter that the game looks exactly like it should and adding more would serve no purpose.  The machine needs to be maxed out or it isn't good and Nintendo got lazy.  He basically thinks that lower budget games should be essentially nonexistant and that doing anything other than blowing millions on pointless additions (going all out)is lazy. 

To Matt I imagine the entire idea of releasing the Wii was lazy because Nintendo didn't "go all out" in the specs.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: EasyCure on December 13, 2009, 10:58:46 AM
I think Pro's post basically sums up the whole argument and closes it.

I almost didn't bother posting because of this truth.

Quote
Quote
And who said anything bad about Mario Galaxy and Smash Bros.?  Even the original article points out that Nintendo has had some titles they put their full effort into.

Care to expand on this?  Apparently Nintendo is the only one to have given a full effort.  For the games like Mario Galaxy, SSBB, Smash Bros, Mario Kart (yes, Mario Kart), and even Wii Fit, Metroid Prime, Zelda: Twilight Princess, no third company even comes close to Nintendo in effort.  Yet it's Nintendo's knuckles that get rapped for a perceived "drop in effort" while other companies get free passes to make awful games and concurring nods from the press when they blame Nintendo for their crappy games' failure (like you did.)  To bitch out Nintendo for "lack of effort" is injustice of the highest order when other third parties make schlock and laugh as they do it.

And thank you Deg for not only beating me to the reply, but putting it much more eloquently than i could.

I gotta give credit to Nintendo; they're like EarthBound's Poo when he was going thru his Mu training. Let the haters try to break their legs, and take their eyes from them; in the end they'll still be miles above the rest.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Caterkiller on December 13, 2009, 12:24:45 PM
If someone post an article in the "PATHETIC" media thread stating that it is a pathetic article, and several people agree with the article as it is written, then should we assume those people to be admitting that they too are PATHETIC?

I have not read the article, but if even the person who posted it agrees whole heartedly with what is said in the article, why would it be posted in a thread where you would put articles from gaming "journalist" that you think were poorly written, heavily biased (without valid argument) and very mis-representive of whatever it was they were talking about?

Though I do agree with some of the things Matt said, I just didn't know where to post his article or if I should start a new thread.

The way I read this Matt seems almost "enraged" if you will, about everything. I agree with Animal Crossing and Mario Tennis and jungle Beat remakes being not as good as the originals. Animal crossing really blew my mind, cause to me it was essentially the exact same game as before.  Just the fact that so many of these games were re released with new controls does seem pretty lazy to me. But those games in no way affect how I think of Nintendo and its games as a whole. I'm not so pissed off at everything where I feel I need to jump ship.

As far as presentation goes in Mario Bros Wii I have absolutely no complaints. That game is a 10 in my book and I am thoroughly pleased with just about every aspect of the game. I haven't played Punch Out yet, but I want it! I think the graphics and animation look great and I saw someone in the game who I never expected!. Do these games support surround sound? I honestly don't know. I don't even know what Dolby Digital or any of that is. Is it the sound system used for movies too? That type of thing bothers me not, and I really don't feel like I'm missing anything when I play games without it or watch movies with it. *Note* until I read a post somewhere above mine I didn't realise Dolby something er other was surround sound. I know I experienced surround sound before in a few games and movies when I did have surround sound but I didn't know it was potentially because of Dolby. Yeah I'm a dummy.*

I do wish the system did have better specs, but if more games looked like Jungle Beat or Galaxy I wouldn't care one bit. And I feel those quality of visuals haven't be done enough on the Wii. TP, and Crystal Chronicles to me look like last generation games. And obviously TP was a last generation game, I say it because people bring up its visuals often and I really don't think its that spectacular at all. The spider boss looked amazing along with the Link, Zelda, Midna and Ganon models but everything else just doesn't look so great to me. After Jungle Beat and Galaxy I figured that most every Nintendo game after would at least be getting close to that but I just dont see it. I do understand Jungle Beat is a 2D side scrolling game and its different than a full 3D roaming game but still. Sin and Punishment, Metroid, and a few other things shown last E3 just looked very underwhelming to me. Galaxy 2 was the only thing I noticed that caught my eye graphically.

But at the same time I am so not impressed with most anything shown on other systems. Granted they do look great, but they all look the same to me. I'm just a sucker for blue skies and bright green grass. So I can't win anywhere.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mop it up on December 13, 2009, 12:33:12 PM
If I were to give you a hug Caterkiller, would that encourage you to post more often?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Luigi Dude on December 13, 2009, 02:05:31 PM

Sin and Punishment, Metroid, and a few other things shown last E3 just looked very underwhelming to me. Galaxy 2 was the only thing I noticed that caught my eye graphically.

But at the same time I am so not impressed with most anything shown on other systems. Granted they do look great, but they all look the same to me. I'm just a sucker for blue skies and bright green grass. So I can't win anywhere.

I'm guessing someone hasn't seen the final version of the game yet.  Really now, the graphics for Sin and Punishment 2 for the final version were improved greatly from the E3 version.  The backgrounds and enemies have way more detail to them then before.

Seriously, the difference is almost night and day.

E3 Version
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/luigidude/E3pic.jpg)

Final Version
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/luigidude/finalpic.jpg)


Here's a game nobody can say they were lazy with.  And before anyone says this is Treasure and not Nintendo, Nintendo funded the entire game.  If they were lazy like Matt say they are, they would not have given Treasure the money to improve everything like they did.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Caterkiller on December 13, 2009, 02:43:06 PM
Well I do like that! That monster in particular looks great!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Stogi on December 13, 2009, 02:47:39 PM
The difference is staggering.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: EasyCure on December 13, 2009, 05:44:09 PM
dammit when the hell does S&P2 come out anyway!?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on December 13, 2009, 06:56:32 PM
Q1 2010? I seriously want that game.


But for the sake of trolling the media, how many points will it lose off it's score? 0.5? 1.0? 1.5? Take your guesses people!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 13, 2009, 07:14:28 PM
Q1 2010? I seriously want that game.


But for the sake of trolling the media, how many points will it lose off it's score? 0.5? 1.0? 1.5? Take your guesses people!

My guess (based on the game's reception on 1up's "Game Night") is that it's going to be hit in the same two places the first game was: a nonsensical story and incredibly short length.  They might go after the second player never having a character model on-screen with Player 1 as well.  To me, it's a game that screams 7.5-8.0 in the press.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: EasyCure on December 13, 2009, 07:16:56 PM
Q1 2010? I seriously want that game.


But for the sake of trolling the media, how many points will it lose off it's score? 0.5? 1.0? 1.5? Take your guesses people!

1.5 for being too easy thanks too wii's IR pointer controls aka "dumbed down for grandmas"
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BeautifulShy on December 14, 2009, 09:17:30 PM
God IGN is trolling the internet for hits with their latest podcast.

Here is a summary of what was said. (http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2009/12/15/ign-continues-to-meltdown)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Invincible Donkey Kong on December 14, 2009, 09:36:26 PM
"-Achievements are an innovation as big as motion controls. Achievements are a better innovation than motion controls."

Are IGN editors autistic? How do they even function?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 14, 2009, 09:37:24 PM
God IGN is trolling the internet for hits with their latest podcast.

Here is a summary of what was said. (http://Http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2009/12/15/ign-continues-to-meltdown)

(http://i49.tinypic.com/n5mr0n.jpg)

I think that about wraps up everything that needs to be said about that podcast.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Guitar Smasher on December 14, 2009, 09:39:42 PM
WOW...

It's as if in an attempt to prove that the hardcore industry isn't in a decline, they're killing off the Wii channel.  "Nobody actually cares about Wii, that's why nobody visits our Wii site!"

I'm glad I'm never going to have to question the validity of their reviews now that they've revealed their true pretext.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BeautifulShy on December 14, 2009, 10:01:45 PM
So yeah this is about the most elitist thing that I have heard from IGN. I think we shouldn't link to them anymore.

First of all on Achievements. Achievements are not new.There was a thing called making your own challenges and High Scores.
Ever try and beat Zelda on the NES with the Wooden Sword? How about beating a Megaman game without dieing?
Try playing Pacman or Donkey Kong until you can't anymore.

They are just trolling Super Mario Bros. 5 because a 2-D platformer is preforming better than they thought it would. 

I mean it seems like they just browsed through the internet and wrote down any disparaging comments down and decided to put them in the podcast.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 14, 2009, 10:04:17 PM
"-Achievements are an innovation as big as motion controls. Achievements are a better innovation than motion controls."

Are IGN editors autistic? How do they even function?

Ok, here's the thing: I know that sounds ridiculous, and taken at face value I'd certainly agree.  From my standpoint, I can say that achievement systems have helped me get the most out of my games, prodding me to do things I would ordinarily avoid.  When there's so much product out there, to keep me playing old games is quite an accomplishment.  With motion control, though, I've yet to see a game that completely nails it with no hiccups or wierd constraints put on the player (like Wii Motion + games forcing the player to recalibrate the gyroscope every once in a while).  That's a technical problem that will eventually be overcome, but until it does that breaks the immersion for me.  So I can kind of see where they're coming from.  Downloading the podcast now, though, so I can listen for myself.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Guitar Smasher on December 14, 2009, 10:12:08 PM
Or you know, the game could be actually 'fun' to play, not needing to dangle a carrot in front of you.  Frankly, that's what's lazy in gaming these days.

But that's another argument altogether.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Caterkiller on December 14, 2009, 10:12:45 PM
I just read through all that and for once I am seriously pissed off. Things like this usualy never get to me, but this tears it. If I ever got big and famous I'd be one of the few stars that are pro nintendo and would point out the flaws in todays gaming media. I always enjoyed IGN until right now.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 14, 2009, 10:16:44 PM
Or you know, the game could be actually 'fun' to play, not needing to dangle a carrot in front of you.  Frankly, that's what's lazy in gaming these days.

But that's another argument altogether.

Well, the game being "fun" is all well and good (and required), but I'm talking about things like beating the game on the hardest difficulty mode or finding all the hidden crap in a particular game (Assassin's Creed 2 comes to mind).  Ordinarily, I consider myself retired from that sort of nonsense, having "served my time" with that in countless games for years.  But hey, if there's a trophy for it someday I might come back and give it a shot.  Hell, the stuff I had to do for trophies in Bioshock just made me love that game even more for its wonderful level design.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Infernal Monkey on December 14, 2009, 10:26:13 PM
I love when I'm playing a 360 game and the frame rate has a slight heart attack to inform me that I've unlocked an achievement. "100 for using your shotgun" "500 for pressing start". It gives me such an erection.

Nintendo doesn't praise me every step of the way, there's no use playing their games. I can't wait 'til they go third party. Yes indeed, 1999 will be a good year.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 14, 2009, 10:27:28 PM
I remember when doing cool things in a game used to unlock cool stuff like alternate costumes, extra levels, secret weapons, and extra characters.  Now all that stuff is for sale as Cash Money DLC and we've replaced the rewards for being a good gamer with boy scout badges.  Am I to believe that receiving a digital gold star is as big an innovation, if not bigger than motion controls, especially when it's at the expense of unlockables that have been relegated to the marketplace? (gag)

Hell Smash Bros. Melee had trophies and stuff unlock when you walked 40,000 feet or something.  This isn't new, at all.  The only thing new is linking it to your facebook or something.

But I digress.  IGN Trolling Wii owners?  What else is new?  Also weird profit-hate.  It's like they can't stand that Nintendo's profitable and not slashing their own wrists for... some reason.  Maybe they could go into the red for Wii owners a bit and stand up for more quality games from third parties, thus risking their lucrative third party review incentives.  I wonder what their response would be if somebody asked them.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on December 14, 2009, 10:35:22 PM
Man, I've been out of the loop on all the latest memes and industry rages and rants these past 6 months or so, but the past couple pages really make me NOT want to re-visit the violently hostile realms of the internet that I used to tap into.

Why is... the internet rantboy community just so inhospitable to Nintendo fans?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Caterkiller on December 14, 2009, 10:38:04 PM
Man, I've been out of the loop on all the latest memes and industry rages and rants these past 6 months or so, but the past couple pages really make me NOT want to re-visit the violently hostile realms of the internet that I used to tap into.

Why is... the internet rantboy community just so inhospitable to Nintendo fans?

It really is strange isn't it? There must be some amazing drug like qualities that come from hating on Nintendo. Now I don't think Nintendo is perfect, but some of these complaints on Nintendo are just absolutely insane. You know I bet allot of these people hate Nintendo to the point that its literaly costing them energy. Getting worked up in angry posts, pod casts that rant like crazy, and always trying to justify why Nintendo stinks even though they are selling a jillion times more than anyone else.
 
It aint healthy and I know, I remember back in my high school and junior high days! I could get so worked up in an argument that they could literaly stress me out. And just knowing how fanboys n' girls can be, I know just seeing Nintendo outsell everything almost every month is physically taxing on the PS360 guys. And you know what thats probably it right there, and they need some kind of release.
 
Oh how I would love if Nintendo just completely didn't do their Nintendo Minutes any more with them, and stoped sending review copies and just gave them no attention what so ever anymore.

What would Reggie to say to that podcast?

He should go "they don't like it? Fine no more exclusive material. Lets take it to NWR".
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Invincible Donkey Kong on December 14, 2009, 10:43:14 PM
broodwars: How do achievements bring gaming closer to Virtual Reality?

As a co-winner of the first RetroMachoActive competition, I am not averse to achievement. I know what it's like to run through Rickety Race, hoping not to fall off the track to my doom, hoping not to get blown into the fatal brambles of Animal Antics, and hoping to find all DK coins in the fastest time possible--just for a Bobomb Badge.

But the adventure has to stand on its own two feet.

"What would Reggie to say to that podcast?"

I shudder to think!
The blood and the gore
the fanboys' sad names
drop-kicked out the door.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 14, 2009, 10:54:30 PM
broodwars: How do achievements bring gaming closer to Virtual Reality?

What does an achievement system have to do with the pointless waste of time, money, and technology that is the failed experiment of Virtual Reality?  For that matter, it's all a different issue from DLC so I don't see why anyone would bring that up.

Just an aside, I'm listening to the podcast right now and they very clearly state that they believe that achievement/trophies are the second most important gaming innovation this generation next to motion control.  So whoever did that summary got that wrong.  I will say this, though, to disagree with them: getting more people to play crappy games is not a reasonable reason to implement an achievement system.  Encouraging competition and personal fulfillment in gaming are the only suitable reasons.

What I don't understand with Nintendo on this is simply "why not?"  An achievement system costs very little to maintain once created and implemented, is relatively easy to program, and it only adds value to your products.  Hell, Nintendo could even do something as simple as tie it into Club Nintendo for first party titles: do X in a game, get 5 coins added to your Club Nintendo account (obviously, these things would need to be few in number and significant).  It adds value to game, encourages people to hold onto your games and not trade them in, and it encourages people to buy games sooner.  Everyone goes home happy.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 14, 2009, 11:04:09 PM
Quote
An achievement system costs very little to maintain once created and implemented, is relatively easy to program, and it only adds value to your products

They do have achievement systems, like SSBB and SSBM and Wii Sports Resort.  I'm already ON the internet.  I can upload a video to youtube if I feel like showing off, or take a picture.   And what is your evidence that they would "cost little to maintain?"
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Invincible Donkey Kong on December 14, 2009, 11:09:19 PM
VR is not a failed experiment, it takes baby steps to push technology forward and achievements do absolutely nothing helpful toward this end.

Metroid Prime 3 / Metroid Prime trilogy has them.

Are they happy? No.


Is anyone?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 14, 2009, 11:11:53 PM
Quote
An achievement system costs very little to maintain once created and implemented, is relatively easy to program, and it only adds value to your products

They do have achievement systems, like SSBB and SSBM and Wii Sports Resort.  I'm already ON the internet.  I can upload a video to youtube if I feel like showing off, or take a picture.   And what is your evidence that they would "cost little to maintain?"

Because I've had some experience in the gaming industry as a tester, and I can tell you that achievements are very binary: "Did the player do this?  "Yes/No."  "Was this achievement supposed to unlock?" "Yes/No."  Most of the cost in achievements is in maintaining a database to house the collected achievement scores, and in testing the achievements themselves.  Considering Nintendo already has a persistent database that tracks what you've purchased on the Wii, that's just one more piece of information to add to the database.  It's not that hard unless Nintendo would want to expand upon it like Sony and Microsoft did with websites and systems that display that information in various ways and break it down.  It all comes down to what Nintendo does with it.

EDIT: As for Metroid Prime 3 and the Trilogy's Achievement systems, those were just fine.  I just wish that since they were used to unlock things that they actually unlocked things worth earning like Behind the Scenes videos and whatnot.  I was also quite fine with the system in Smash Bros. Brawl, which did unlock things worth earning.  If all games worked like those did, I don't think you'd see many complaints.  But only a few do.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 14, 2009, 11:26:49 PM
Well then I'm sure Nintendo will just stick with what works in SSBB (and SSBM, mind you) and MP3 as well, mostly on a game by game basis.  No need to create a large database just to house such data.

And I consider achievements and the movement of secret content from behind the "achievement," per se, and to the marketplace linked, as one went up with the other.  They aren't isolated instances.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on December 15, 2009, 12:16:40 AM
I don't think that achievements themselves are such a change, just the fact that the industry has in a large way found a way to mechanize, leverage, and mass produce the challenges that Nintendo Power used to print on the back of their collectible game cards in the mid 90's.

I'm personally not that motivated by achievements, but then again I was never motivated by "high scores" either. However, they are a straightforward/convenient way to add another reward system to games. *shrug*

...

actually... Kirby's Air Ride had sort-of-achievements in a way... that was pretty awesome. I loved playing city mode with my brother in that game.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Stogi on December 15, 2009, 12:36:22 AM
Am I the only one that laughed at this??
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 15, 2009, 12:58:03 AM
Quote from: Caterkiller
It really is strange isn't it? There must be some amazing drug like qualities that come from hating on Nintendo.

Nintendope, it's more potent than Hopium.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 15, 2009, 02:32:36 AM
Am I the only one that laughed at this??

I'm laughing that IGN thinks it can expand it's readership by throwing the majority of gamers under the bus and calling them "brainwashed."
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: SixthAngel on December 15, 2009, 06:51:54 AM
Man, I've been out of the loop on all the latest memes and industry rages and rants these past 6 months or so, but the past couple pages really make me NOT want to re-visit the violently hostile realms of the internet that I used to tap into.

Why is... the internet rantboy community just so inhospitable to Nintendo fans?

I am amazed when I visit other forums.  Not just about the hate but about what they hate.  The parts they despise are some of the parts I like the best.  It blows my mind.

When I think achievements I think about Beedle's shop in Zelda.  I buy so much **** from him because of his special cards and then my reward is him screaming "You're great!"  I never wanted to kill a game character so much.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Caterkiller on December 15, 2009, 08:54:24 AM
I think achievements are cool, and would love for people to have seen my ultimate Jungle Beat scores for the cube. But it's not making or breaking me by any means.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Ian Sane on December 15, 2009, 09:01:21 AM
I would say achievements are about as innovative as motion controls.  But I say that as a slam on motion controls as opposed to praise for achievements.  I think both are lame and overrated and this generation will be remembered as a weak period and somewhat of a joke by gamers ten years from now.  But motion control does have potential to be great and to truly change videogames in a much bigger way than attracting non-gamers to Nintendo and achievements really doesn't.  That concept has pretty much reached its peak in what it even can do.

IGN though is clearly trying to stir **** up though... or they're become detached from typical gamers because they themselves get everything for free so they focus on weird nitpicky details instead of the big picture "is this game worth paying $50 for?"

I actually would like Nintendo to avoid achievements.  I find it annoying to be playing an old game and some stupid message box pops up in the middle of it.  It's something I find annoying at worst and completely uninteresting at best.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on December 15, 2009, 09:19:07 AM
How dare IGN to have such a frank opinion!  Last time I visit their site. If only Malstrom wouldn't have summarized that podcast. I would have never known such hateful trolls lurked in the shadows, baiting me to feed them with page views.  I thought Sean hated those guys. Why does he keep digesting their content? Nothing makes sense anymore. 
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BeautifulShy on December 15, 2009, 09:49:31 AM
Would you of rather had me link to this thread (http://Http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=382270) D_Average?

Same things but Malstrom is easier to read.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on December 15, 2009, 09:56:42 AM
We've already considered IGN the germ-ridden hell hole of gaming media, why the hell should this even bother us? In fact, most of that rant is akin to random barnyard animal noises.

Seriously, if I want achievements in the game, I want to get something in return. SSBB/SSBM did this amazingly well, and in Wario Land Wii, getting the achievements unlocked music (and some other things...I think).

IGN media troll live under rocks, it seems.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on December 15, 2009, 11:02:38 AM
@Maxi

I just find it curious the Malstrom spends so much time reading, watching, listening, and blogging about the "trolls" he says are worthless. Where does he find the time to do all that? It probably doesn't  leave much time to actually play with his Wii.

Maybe if the Wii had achievements he'd be a bit more motivated to actually play it.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BeautifulShy on December 15, 2009, 11:34:22 AM
Well as you likely know he is a old school gamer. So he likes games that reflect that time. He doesn't really mention what he is playing that much because he feels that it is likely not that important in comparison to his articles and such.

As far as achievements and the Wii in regards to Malstrom goes I feel I can't speak on his behalf. Go send him an e-mail D_Average.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 15, 2009, 12:13:46 PM
Quote
Maybe if the Wii had achievements he'd be a bit more motivated to actually play it.

But it does have achievements.  Even IGN admits this but they qualify it with "But they don't go beyond the game."  I thought achievements WERE those little flash up boy scout badges.  Apparently it's the linking to a social network site or some online profile that matters, even though most gamers, in general, don't care about achievements, as evidenced by the continued dominance and high sales of games without them.  But even so, Wii has achievements...  and so did the GC for that matter. (SSBM)  And they actually... unlocked something instead of a little logo, and some worthless points on Facebook or something.  Extra content > Boy Scout Badge.

Quote
How dare IGN to have such a frank opinion!  Last time I visit their site.

So is anybody else allowed to have frank opinions about IGN?  They haven't been relevant since they chose the PSP.  Ever since then there's been this strange feeling like they have an ax to grind for being wrong and they didn't want to man up and blame themselves for having the wrong analysis.  They'd rather blame the geek who got 98 on his test because it assuages their own responsibility.  And besides, they did this kind of "doom and gloom" podcast crap before about the DS in 2005.  I sure they thought it would be relevant later at the time though, which is cute.

Quote
I just find it curious the Malstrom spends so much time reading, watching, listening, and blogging about the "trolls" he says are worthless. Where does he find the time to do all that? It probably doesn't  leave much time to actually play with his Wii.

So what was IGN bored too when they decided to make this ill-conceived troll of the Wii and its owners? ("Brainwashed?")  Standards, you have double the normal amount.

Quote
As far as achievements and the Wii in regards to Malstrom goes I feel I can't speak on his behalf. Go send him an e-mail D_Average.

I know apparently its bad for Malstrom to waste him time talking about IGN, or for IGN to troll the Wii, but he can take on "Forum Guy" for free!  Maybe he has triple the normal amount.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on December 15, 2009, 12:53:58 PM
So achievements are pointless but SSBM rules for including them first?  Strange.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: vudu on December 15, 2009, 12:59:15 PM
SSBM rules but not for whatever achievement-like qualities it had.

Stop nit-picking each other's statements and focus on the big-picture.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 15, 2009, 01:07:56 PM
So achievements are pointless but SSBM rules for including them first?  Strange.

I don't even want to know how you came up with this, but you obviously didn't read it so I'm just thinking you're trying to troll me.  As such, I will not participate.

Special note for non-trolls: Anybody who passed elementary school could have clearly read that I stated that SSBM's "achievement system" actually unlocked extra game content and modern achievement systems just flash a badge or give you worthless points for an already worthless online profile.  Plus de choses en jeux, ce sont mieux que des badges.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Ian Sane on December 15, 2009, 01:54:03 PM
Quote
I thought achievements WERE those little flash up boy scout badges. Apparently it's the linking to a social network site or some onlineprofile that matters

So it's just e-peen stuff they're going on about?  **** me.

I think IGN has an axe to grind with the Wii because they probably actually don't like it very much.  But they're the Nintendo guys and it's their job to cover the Nintendo console.  So they're stuck.  I think Nintendo are a bunch of sell-outs.  If it was my job to cover them for a web site, and I used to enjoy my job, I would be pretty PO'ed that my dream job turned into a chore because Nintendo changed into something I don't care for.

There's a key difference though between me bitching about Nintendo hanging their fans out to dry on a forum and paid professionals doing it on the site they work for.  There's a conflict of interest between expressing your true thoughts and maintaining a level of professionalism.  I think you have a responsibility to pick your battles.  Save the bitchfest for something big that affects everyone (like say no new games coming out for like 8 months at a time) instead of just your own personal pet peeves.  Otherwise report Nintendo news in a non-biased manner and give fair reviews.

Overall though I do think Nintendo deserves most of the criticism aimed at them.  The gaming media SHOULD hate them but should have the maturity to present that in a more professional way.  It doesn't help that in the past most of them seemed strongly biased against Nintendo for superficial reasons and now that they have a legitimate gripe they look like jackasses for crying wolf.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on December 15, 2009, 02:07:02 PM
Extra content?  Lol. It was just locked.  Games with DLC aren't getting smaller. How many years have we been playing Burnout Paradise now??
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 15, 2009, 02:34:42 PM
I do think it's worth noting where the podcast is concerned that IGN has lately been retooling its employee structure, so teams that were formerly locked to various consoles are now interacting openly with one another.  This particular episode of Nintendo Voice Chat only had what sounds like 1 normal member of the Nintendo team with what sounds like two people from the PlayStation 3 team, so it's not surprising how openly anti-Nintendo this episode was (if you ever listen to Podcast Beyond, the PS3 podcast, you know that the Wii is a running gag on that show).  Damen Hatfield, one of the more vocal people on the episode, is notable for declaring after this year's E3 that "the Wii is stupid", so I'm kind of surprised he was even brought on for this episode.  I get the feeling this won't be the last time we see IGN articles in this thread because of this new "loose" team structure.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 15, 2009, 02:57:18 PM
The new operating procedure will be to link to sites that link to IGN, never to IGN directly.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 15, 2009, 03:31:04 PM
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Extra content?  Lol. It was just locked.  Games with DLC aren't getting smaller.

Yes, it is extra content.  Content not available on start-up.  Unlocking via "achievement" is a lot better than unlocking via paying somebody.  Now you're gonna reply that some games do actually have DLC as in Content that is downloaded as opposed to just paying for "keys" to unlock content already on the disc.  But can the average layman or even experienced gamer even tell the difference?  How can one tell if one isn't simply paying for something already on the disc?

And as for games getting smaller, some are.  Like moving alternate colors for Street Fighter IV to the DLC to buy.  The privilege once received by pressing R on the SNES controller during fighter select is now on a fee-based system.  That's madness.  Furthermore, game length or "largeness" is pretty subjective, and if we are going by just "game length by hours" Pokemon is probably the largest game of all time, because gamers have poured more time into that game than any other.

But again, I digress, as I have already put too much thought into this without mutual reciprocity.

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How many years have we been playing Burnout Paradise now??

Uhm, Zero?  Way less than Mario Kart Wii?  Mario Kart DS?

Are you trying to become a parody of yourself or something?  That game bombed and DLC didn't save it.  Made something like the majority of its sales after it sank to $20 (despite still charging $60 for a digital version at first.  Go Digital Distribution!) and after it got bundled to death.

EDIT:

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It doesn't help that in the past most of them seemed strongly biasedagainst Nintendo for superficial reasons and now that they have alegitimate gripe they look like jackasses for crying wolf.

This little snippet of Ian's post is ironic on so many levels and IGN should feel so damaged that Ian has said it about them that they should hang their heads in shame.  I thought a new, good, popular 2D Mario on consoles would lighten the mood, but nope, still sell-outs, eh?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BeautifulShy on December 15, 2009, 03:41:52 PM
The new operating procedure will be to link to sites that link to IGN, never to IGN directly.
Yep that is what I'm going to do.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mop it up on December 15, 2009, 03:48:16 PM
Has anyone brought up the point that if the Wii "needed" achievements then it wouldn't have sold so well?

Also, does anyone else find it funny that an article explaining that poor games need to give an incentive to be played is posted right after an article which says Nintendo doesn't put effort into their games?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BeautifulShy on December 15, 2009, 04:32:27 PM
Yeah I think Deguello brought it up a few times.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on December 15, 2009, 04:59:05 PM
Honestly, I believe there were a lot of valid criticisms on the IGN podcast, despite the flippant delivery.  We're seeing a ton of old games redone with flawed controls, the online system is a mess, and it would be nice if Nintendo swallowed their pride like Sony did and offered an achievement system for those that like it (if you don't like them, change the settings on your system).

But, I am obviously the minority in that group.  It seems any article the critiques the Wii ends up in this thread and is immediately declared a troll.  Obviously, no system is perfect, so can anyone here point me to an article that strongly critiques the Wii in a non "pathetic" manner?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 15, 2009, 05:10:31 PM
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?board=28.0
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: EasyCure on December 15, 2009, 05:16:22 PM
Man, i remember the days before SSBM when I'd spend hours achieving every gap in every level of Tony Hawk Pro Skater 3, because I wanted to (since the list was sitting there.. mocking me).
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: mac<censored> on December 15, 2009, 05:22:20 PM
But, I am obviously the minority in that group.  It seems any article the critiques the Wii ends up in this thread and is immediately declared a troll.  Obviously, no system is perfect, so can anyone here point me to an article that strongly critiques the Wii in a non "pathetic" manner?

I've not watched the podcast (and have no intention of doing so), but remember that peoples' judgement is based on more than just the immediate artifact -- these things don't exist in a vacuum.  In IGN's case, we've all seen them behaving like grade-school kids with unusually large amounts of facial hair for many years, with the "nintendo guys" constantly acting like they were forced by management into covering the wii when they'd reallllly rather  being hanging with the big kids (wait, we're not kids!!!) and play awesome muscled dudez on the xbox, not a system for babies like the wii!!!1!

It's like the comic-book guy on the Simpsons -- it's not that he's always wrong, strictly speaking, it's that he's an annoying **** who constantly twists the truth to support his silly and banal agenda...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: EasyCure on December 15, 2009, 05:52:46 PM
(http://i10.tinypic.com/63jtpaa.jpg) Wost. Podcast. Ever. (?)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 15, 2009, 06:23:11 PM
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But, I am obviously the minority in that group.  It seems any article the critiques the Wii ends up in this thread and is immediately declared a troll.  Obviously, no system is perfect, so can anyone here point me to an article that strongly critiques the Wii in a non "pathetic" manner?

Sometimes being the minority means you are wrong, like the Flat Earthers or the gold-bug people.

Amazingly, there are several on your most hated enemy's website, that of Sean Malstrom.  He critiques the Wii quite a bit (also please note, "critique" does not mean "Nintendo fans are brainwashed."  That's ad homenim, and I think we've discussed this before.)  But they may not be the grist for that "Wii is for babiez and casualz and fanbois" addiction you're looking for.

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it would be nice if Nintendo swallowed their pride like Sony did andoffered an achievement system for those that like it (if you don't likethem, change the settings on your system).

We are talking about the $600 PS3 and Increased-price, less-functionality, ownership-eliminating PSPGo Sony, right?  Sony's not necessarily "swallowing their pride" as much as you would like others to think.  But buying that perception from their fans isn't cheap.  It's basically cost them almost all the money they've ever made in video games.

Hell Sega had more money when they left than Sony's game division does now.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 15, 2009, 06:55:59 PM
"But buying that perception from their fans isn't cheap."

Well they've certainly saved money given the reduced number of fans they've got today, no?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on December 15, 2009, 07:00:19 PM
I'm only the minority here, so perhaps you are wrong, like the Y2K preachers. I've read Malstroms critiques and found them wanting. His thoughts are more embarassing the Pachters. He is out of touch as "star finder Mario" revolutionized the industry.  All he cares about are sales. Which is probably why he loves the Jonas Brothers. 
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 15, 2009, 07:06:03 PM
Yeah yeah blah blah Hoak Hogan Destrucity Blah.

But he does offer critiques of the Wii without insulting everybody.  And you find them wanting because you want articles that "take Nintendo down a notch," even though Nintendo's basically been piled upon for about 5 years straight for any topic under the sun.  Which is, suffice to say, pretty boring when another one gets made because Nintendo neglected kart skins or something.

I mean it's getting really predictable.  And when IGN gets predictable in their Wii trolling, they lose the site hits they want, because even though they are being little whiny bitches, it's so old hat that nobody cares.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 15, 2009, 07:31:38 PM
Being late to the party with a compressed list of Nintendo complaints from the past 5 years is not an effective way to provide content as a press outlet.  Normally, they'd offer a column with a focus on more tangible topics, like Matt's Wii Music piece, but apparently lacked that this year.  This year's Mario article is 2006 stuff, but they probably didn't realize it or was too distracted by Zelda ports and system launches then.

Is this how they close the year?  Aged bitterness towards a 2D platformer and its customers (many of whom don't visit IGN for their wisdom and content)?  Imagine what the annual Wii awards will be like!

All this stuff is not a good sign of things to come, of the professionally produced content that interwebbers used to expect from them.  What they will expect is that unpleasant SOMETHING underneath the bridge.  But on their computer screen?  Maybe not so much anymore.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Guitar Smasher on December 15, 2009, 08:37:24 PM
it would be nice if Nintendo swallowed their pride like Sony did and offered an achievement system for those that like it (if you don't like them, change the settings on your system).

But, I am obviously the minority in that group.  It seems any article the critiques the Wii ends up in this thread and is immediately declared a troll.  Obviously, no system is perfect, so can anyone here point me to an article that strongly critiques the Wii in a non "pathetic" manner?
Adding achievements to an already solid game is just fine.  The argument isn't that achievements are bad, but that they are used as a crutch for a disappointing game.

But the real issue with IGN's analysis is that they're actually saying that Wii games are bad because they don't include them, and that Wii gamers who don't care about them are stupid.  It's childish.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on December 15, 2009, 09:42:05 PM
it would be nice if Nintendo swallowed their pride like Sony did and offered an achievement system for those that like it (if you don't like them, change the settings on your system).

But, I am obviously the minority in that group.  It seems any article the critiques the Wii ends up in this thread and is immediately declared a troll.  Obviously, no system is perfect, so can anyone here point me to an article that strongly critiques the Wii in a non "pathetic" manner?
Adding achievements to an already solid game is just fine.  The argument isn't that achievements are bad, but that they are used as a crutch for a disappointing game.

But the real issue with IGN's analysis is that they're actually saying that Wii games are bad because they don't include them, and that Wii gamers who don't care about them are stupid.  It's childish.

Actualy, Greg Miller, one of the PS3 guys on the podcast LOVES New Super Mario Bros.  He went to Gamestop 4 times before they finally had the copy that he pre-ordered.

In the big pictures, achievements are a on going game.  Are they worthless?  Sure.  But so are all games.  They're not going to make you a better man.  But both are fun and that's why the vast majority of gamers like them.  Even stay at home moms (http://kotaku.com/5422154/achievement-chore-she-plays-for-gamerscore-whether-its-fun-or-not) in Indiana get into them.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 15, 2009, 10:06:33 PM
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Actualy, Greg Miller, one of the PS3 guys on the podcast LOVES New Super Mario Bros.  He went to Gamestop 4 times before they finally had the copy that he pre-ordered.

While this is all well and good, what does this have to do with the price of nutmeg, where the price of nutmeg is IGN calling Nintendo fans "brainwashed" and "stupid?"  And how does this refute Guitar Smasher's point of them being childish?

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In the big pictures, achievements are a on going game.  Are they worthless?  Sure.  But so are all games.  They're not going to make you a better man.  But both are fun and that's why the vast majority of gamers like them.  Even stay at home moms in Indiana get into them.

The plural of anecdote is not data, and the singular isn't datum.  While it is nice that kotaku scoured the globe to find one homemaker somewhere who extols the majesty of gamerscore e-peens doesn't mean the consensus is that they are worthwhile additions, on par with motion controls or touch screens, which have converted into real phenomena.  Particularly when the innovation is just taking things that had existed in games for decades (challenges, unlockable rewards or otherwise) and linking it to a subscription social network.

I guess the point is, what does all this have to do with IGN's podcast calling Nintendo fans "brainwashed" because they may not see that achievement gamerscore points are as big an innovation as controlling videogames with motion?  Quick, name a scifi movie where the futuristic computers are all controlled with little pop-up windows that said "you did it!" when the techs access data.  Can't?  How about one where they are touching holograms or grabbing things on the screen and tossing them around or where they are touching the screen?

Furthermore, said "achievements" already exist and have existed for a long time.  They just don't link to social network profiles.  When seen in that light, it's really hard to see the comparison with engineering a new way to control videogames, or even putting them in the same league.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on December 15, 2009, 10:35:51 PM
They call them brainwashed for many reasons. Here's a few.

The fanboys shout they would rather play SD games on an HD TV. Which does look fugly.

They declare imputing 100's of friend codes is awesome.

And the thought "we don't need Wii demos, those are pointless."



Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Invincible Donkey Kong on December 15, 2009, 10:45:19 PM
That's idiotic
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 15, 2009, 10:47:05 PM
They call them brainwashed for many reasons. Here's a few.

The fanboys shout they would rather play SD games on an HD TV. Which does look fugly.

They declare imputing 100's of friend codes is awesome.

And the thought "we don't need Wii demos, those are pointless."

Indeed, I think what IGN's getting at is aspect of the Nintendo fanbase: "because Nintendo chooses not to do something that everyone else does, not only does this mean that that feature wasn't important in the first place but those that enjoy that feature are stupid.  The inverse is also true when Nintendo does something convoluted (like Friend Codes) that no one else does."

While this is by no means an exclusive trait of Nintendo fans (the other platforms have their share of die-hard supporters), I have certainly seen instances of this on these very boards.  "The people who buy the Wii by the boatload don't care about HD, therefore HD obviously sucks!"  "We obviously don't need a dedicated online system, because look at all the games over history that haven't used one!"  And so on.  Because there are legions of people buying Wiis that don't care about gaming and its development once their latest session of Wii Play is over, obviously those who do are stupid for wanting to reap the benefits of its evolution.

To me, such things are silly.  Sure, you can make a great game without the various bells & whistles and there are some recent advances that have been abused (like DLC), but you can make an even better game with them.  I think that's the argument that so many die-hard Nintendo supporters don't understand, and that's why IGN calls them "brainwashed."

Still, I don't think you're really making your case when you insult your audience instead of putting forth a rational argument.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 15, 2009, 10:47:37 PM
Motion Gaming and the Wii initiative brings in (BROUGHT, TONS) new players that don't pay attention to IGN.  This is the deal.

Achievements (stickers for your inconsequential online notebook) probably aren't truly what IGN is heralding, it's just an champion object they happen to throw out there (with no substantial justification) to say this is something important to gamers and the industry (aka potential site traffic that can relate to these hardtard journalists) that Nintendo is not emphasizing on Wii.  It's something that differentiates their Industry from Nintendo, and that Nintendo should be punished for not following with the rest of the happy Industry+followers.

Nintendo, the entity they thought was their traditional serious-gamer sanctuary, has built an audience that does not care about IGN.  THIS is IGN's problem.

This whole mess goes beyond who's buying what and nitpicking what Nintendo does.  Typically you can expect some heated content once in a while, cuz that's what happens when sites focus on Nintendo, but this thing has been cooking deep down so long to the point of serving intentionally POOR CONTENT to their guests.

Folks, it really is meltdown.  Professionalism in game journalism?  All doubts have been erased.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 15, 2009, 11:26:04 PM
They call them brainwashed for many reasons. Here's a few.

The fanboys shout they would rather play SD games on an HD TV. Which does look fugly.

They declare imputing 100's of friend codes is awesome.

And the thought "we don't need Wii demos, those are pointless."

And nowhere in the podcast do they say any of this.  Generic hatred of fanboys not present in the discussion is yawn-worthy.  Strawmen to not construct arguments in and of themselves.  Epic fail.  Next.

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Indeed, I think what IGN's getting at is aspect of the Nintendo fanbase: "because Nintendo chooses not to do something that everyone else does, not only does this mean that that feature wasn't important in the first place but those that enjoy that feature are stupid.  The inverse is also true when Nintendo does something convoluted (like Friend Codes) that no one else does."

So when Nintendo does things that nobody else wants to, like invent motion controls... that's bad?  Would the game industry even have HAD control innovation this generation without Nintendo basically introducing the touch screen and Motion controllers to games?  I mean this is stuff they did and nobody else did.  And meanwhile, how do the IGN guys NOT exhibit what you just said?  They're basically saying anybody who has a Wii and enjoys motion controls over achievement points is stupid, trying to say it isn't important and they've "ceded the market." (LOL!)

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While this is by no means an exclusive trait of Nintendo fans (the other platforms have their share of die-hard supporters), I have certainly seen instances of this on these very boards.  "The people who buy the Wii by the boatload don't care about HD, therefore HD obviously sucks!"

Perhaps they get attributed this idea because they simply say HD visuals are not worth the asking price of expensive consoles and +$10 game prices, and would rather they drop in price before swallowing the whole idea of "HD RULEZ!  WII SUX AND IZ FOR BABIEZ"  (Strawmen are easy to create.)

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"We obviously don't need a dedicated online system, because look at all the games over history that haven't used one!"  And so on.

Oh what's really going to twist your noodle is that the #1 online-enabled game of all time is Mario Kart Wii.  Doesn't speak a lot for $50-a-year online fees when they can't even score the #1 game with online features.  I remember last generation Nintendo fans were saddled with an apparent hatred of online (strangely, Sony fans and the majority of gamers were not said to "hate" online.  Hmm... I'm noticing a trend here.)  Now it's apparently "Centralized, dedicated, monthly-subscription online services" which not even PC and PS3 owners have to put up with.

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To me, such things are silly.  Sure, you can make a great game without the various bells & whistles and there are some recent advances that have been abused (like DLC), but you can make an even better game with them.  I think that's the argument that so many die-hard Nintendo supporters don't understand, and that's why IGN calls them "brainwashed."

DLC "abuse" isn't the half of it.  In most cases, we're getting RIPPED OFF.  The game's already $10 more expensive.  Now they are nickel-and-dimeing gamers with this crap?  One could make an argument that those not outraged or deeply concerned to say the least would be "brainwashed."  This was a good advancement?  Making games more expensive in a piecemeal fashion?  Just so game companies could sell extra content to less people than would buy a new game?  Great.  The problem with your assertion is that just mentioning the potential problems with these advancements, that achievements are useless, pointless, and lead to the de-linking of in-game achievements to non-DLC reward content makes us dichotomously opposed to any forms of advancement.

This is an attempt to label Nintendo fans again.  Kiddy didn't work with DS and Wii.  Casual isn't working either (partially because all those casual games keep flopping.)  Now it's back to "fanboy."  60-something million of them.  All brainwashed into hating achievement points being linked to an online profile.  That makes perfect sense. ::)

Edit: and Pro wins the thread again.  Got a good head on his shoulders, that one.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 15, 2009, 11:55:17 PM
So when Nintendo does things that nobody else wants to, like invent motion controls... that's bad?  Would the game industry even have HAD control innovation this generation without Nintendo basically introducing the touch screen and Motion controllers to games?  I mean this is stuff they did and nobody else did.  And meanwhile, how do the IGN guys NOT exhibit what you just said?  They're basically saying anybody who has a Wii and enjoys motion controls over achievement points is stupid, trying to say it isn't important and they've "ceded the market." (LOL!)

I think Nintendo introducing motion controls before they had a controller that could actually do them right (via Wii Motion +) was a bad thing.  And actually, I believe I noted that while I agree with IGN's overall premise, I think they're going about it the wrong way because insulting your audience does not make for rational discussion.

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Oh what's really going to twist your noodle is that the #1 online-enabled game of all time is Mario Kart Wii.  Doesn't speak a lot for $50-a-year online fees when they can't even score the #1 game with online features.  I remember last generation Nintendo fans were saddled with an apparent hatred of online (strangely, Sony fans and the majority of gamers were not said to "hate" online.  Hmm... I'm noticing a trend here.)  Now it's apparently "Centralized, dedicated, monthly-subscription online services" which not even PC and PS3 owners have to put up with.

What's really going to twist your noodle is that I only own 2 systems: a Wii and a PS3, and honestly I don't give a damn about most of the online features of my games because I usually stick to singleplayer (I find online play to be rather uninteresting unless it's Co-op).  Sony can start charging $50 a year for online play and it won't affect me because I don't use that feature.  There are, however, many people who do care about online and perhaps someday so will I, so I like to see what companies do with it.  I also don't believe I ever cited that Nintendo fans "hated" online, so much as they seem to assume that because Nintendo doesn't pursue it that it doesn't matter.

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DLC "abuse" isn't the half of it.  In most cases, we're getting RIPPED OFF.  The game's already $10 more expensive.  Now they are nickel-and-dimeing gamers with this crap?  One could make an argument that those not outraged or deeply concerned to say the least would be "brainwashed."  This was a good advancement?  Making games more expensive in a piecemeal fashion?  Just so game companies could sell extra content to less people than would buy a new game?  Great.

As I noted, DLC as a feature has been unfortunately abused.  When it was created, it was intended as a method to extend the player's experience with the game long after finishing it instead of having to rush into creating a new expensive game experience to supplant it.  Companies have instead decided to use it as a means to rip the customer off by removing features from the game and selling them as DLC.  That does not mean that DLC is bad by its very nature, though, and has no place on a Nintendo system.  It simply means that consumers shouldn't support "Day 1 DLC", and if enough people do that than we won't have a problem with the feature getting abused as it has.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 16, 2009, 12:03:38 AM
They call them brainwashed for many reasons. Here's a few.

The fanboys shout they would rather play SD games on an HD TV. Which does look fugly.

They declare imputing 100's of friend codes is awesome.

And the thought "we don't need Wii demos, those are pointless."

Who says this stuff? All of that seems rather ridiculous.

everyone I've seen voice an opinion has pointed out a want for demos even if they themselves didn't plan on using them often, and everyone that owns a Wii and has friends has pointed out their annoyance with Friend Codes.

As far a SD on HDtv, it doesn't always look bad and it really depends on how your HDtv handles SD content. Mine does it it quite well, so I have no issue with good quality SD on my HDtv.

and last but not least, Achievements.....
I think they would be a good addition as it might make me go back and play some of the games I'm a little less than enthusiastic to actually attempt to continue, but overall, it wouldn't matter one way or the other. If it was something to get added in the future, I would just hope that there is an option for turning off in-game notifications if you don't really care about them.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on December 16, 2009, 01:50:35 AM
Nintendo, the entity they thought was their traditional serious-gamer sanctuary, has built an audience that does not care about IGN.  THIS is IGN's problem.

This.

In many ways, Nintendo is, and always has been, at odds with commonly-accepted ideas of what makes something a game, what makes it fun, and who can play it. So take one young gaming subculture, wrap it in the internet, and heat it over the extravagance of countless E3s, add a pinch of zero-sum adrenaline, and I shouldn't be surprised at the resulting reaction against a value system that doesn't play by "its" rules.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on December 16, 2009, 02:38:27 AM
To me, such things are silly.  Sure, you can make a great game without the various bells & whistles and there are some recent advances that have been abused (like DLC), but you can make an even better game with them.  I think that's the argument that so many die-hard Nintendo supporters don't understand, and that's why IGN calls them "brainwashed."

I don't think that Nintendo gamers like me are ignorant of the things we're missing out on. My lust for streaming Netflix to my tv through my game console is just as strong as my desire for Parappa the Rapper on the PlayStation 1. My friends don't instantly see me when I'm online with my Wii, and I'm definitely not sitting on the bleeding edge of graphical technology. Having all those things would be swell! (Except for having to buy an HDTV... I get sticker shock on those things.)

I think that what goes against the grain of common wisdom in an industry that has elements of both Blockbuster-obsessed Hollywood and Tech-obsessed Silicon Valley is that losing all these other features isn't a bad trade-off for a lot, or even a majority of people. We're all just making informed economic decisions about how much money we can spend, how many pixels we want to see, whether we always need to have a gun of some sort in our hand to have fun, and whether we want to push buttons or perform gestures.

I may look wistfully at a game like Little Big Planet, but I'm beyond excited with my purchase of A Boy And His Blob. After weighing all my options, (one of which is to spend $350 on a PS3 and a game), what's so brainwashed about that?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 16, 2009, 05:44:26 AM
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I also don't believe I ever cited that Nintendo fans "hated" online, so much as they seem to assume that because Nintendo doesn't pursue it that it doesn't matter.

I don't believe I said you did.  But they were attributed the notion that they "hated" online when most of them felt like you do about online gameplay, in that it didn't matter to them.  But lo and behold, that idea of "being ambivalent towards online" meant they must have hated it.

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I think Nintendo introducing motion controls before they had a controller that could actually do them right (via Wii Motion +) was a bad thing.  And actually, I believe I noted that while I agree with IGN's overall premise, I think they're going about it the wrong way because insulting your audience does not make for rational discussion.

They're not wizards, broodwars.  And besides this would be similar to saying it was bad for Sony and MS to make games all HD before most game companies could affordably offer them without jacking prices up.  You're basically complaining about something NOW when it can't be fixed without a time machine.  You're damning them for not having access to technology from the future in the past.  Why don't you go back to 1985 and tell Nintendo to not even bother with 2-D displays when if they wait 10 years, the technology will be available to make 3-D games?

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That does not mean that DLC is bad by its very nature, though, and has no place on a Nintendo system.

Well no it's not bad in theory, but in the real world its basically used to squeeze out more dollars from people who've already bought the game.  And who knows if this wasn't really the intention in the first place, merely disguised as a way to "add content" to a game.  It seems like the bell can't be unringed though, so I question if DLC was actually a good innovation since they haven't yet staffed game companies with perfect people and not capitalists.  And strangely, as profit-obsessed as Nintendo is made out to be, they haven't done much of this money-grubbing via DLC.  That's odd, you'd think that'd be the first thing they would have thought of.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 16, 2009, 09:18:06 AM
They're not wizards, broodwars.  And besides this would be similar to saying it was bad for Sony and MS to make games all HD before most game companies could affordably offer them without jacking prices up.  You're basically complaining about something NOW when it can't be fixed without a time machine.  You're damning them for not having access to technology from the future in the past.  Why don't you go back to 1985 and tell Nintendo to not even bother with 2-D displays when if they wait 10 years, the technology will be available to make 3-D games?

Given that we saw Wii Motion + within 2 years of the Wii's launch makes me suspicious that Nintendo knew that the Wiimote was too imprecise when they launched the system.  Can you really tell me after all the work they put into revamping Twilight Princess for the Wii that they couldn't have possibly known that the best they could manage out of the Wiimote was waggle and pointing at the screen?  I have as much disdain for the Motion + as you do with DLC: I think Nintendo knew damn well their controller was inadequate, but released it anyway in the state it was because they knew they could get away with it.  Then they could just hit us up again a few years later with an accessory that makes the Wiimote do what it was supposed to do in the first place. 

So yeah, I'm going to damn them for likely releasing an unfinished product so they could slap a bandaid on it a year or two down the line for $20.  Meanwhile, because the controller is incapable of the accuracy and stability needed in non-casual gaming, motion control as a whole gets panned for being poor to mediocre (though in all fairness to Nintendo, the even worse SIXAXIS did its share of damage as well...possibly even more, considering such failures as "Lair".  But at least with the SIXAXIS when the motion control inevitably doesn't work it can still function as a standard controller.).
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Stogi on December 16, 2009, 09:58:13 AM
But it's not like their asking you to pay for M+. It comes free with the games that need it and also bundled with new systems and controllers.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 16, 2009, 10:03:51 AM
But it's not like their asking you to pay for M+. It comes free with the games that need it and also bundled with new systems and controllers.

So far.  We'll see if that continues when Zelda comes out, which would be the first Motion + game I purchase.  I would add, though, that if Gamestop's listings are any indication you're still paying a fair amount extra for the Motion + in those bundles ($54.99 for a Wiimote + Motion+ compared to $39.99 without), so it's not like the things are free in those bundles.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 16, 2009, 10:20:44 AM
Nintendo has already stated that they initially wanted M+ like functionality in the wiimote when it launched, but the tech was too expensive at the time. (The wiimote would have been really expensive)

What did you expect them to do? Delay the Wii? Release a GC 1.5 with an updated GC controller and release the wiimote later as an attachment (much like Natal or GEM)? Wii would have been a total disaster vs going with what they had, solid games based around what they had and wait for the tech that they wanted to become cheap enough to release as an add-on to expand on current capabilities.

Besides, even if M+ was put in right away, Wii still might have failed. Too much 1:1 right from the start might have made things too different and too complicated. It was best to use baby steps, not only for the end customer, but for the developers too.

Casuals like my mom probably never would have gotten into gaming if her every movement was tracked 1:1 instead of just a general swinging gesture. Nintendo handled the bump in control perfectly fine(could have been a little sooner) and to have done it in any different way could have ended up with much different results.

p.s. Gamestop has a $5 markup on all Nintendo accessories over other retailers and the MSRP.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 16, 2009, 10:31:32 AM
*shrugs*

Hey, I don't pretend to have all the answers, though I do think Nintendo could have delayed the Wii up to a year if they wanted to (hell, while they were at it maybe they could have taken advantage of the lower costs of technology and beefed up the specs of the Wii Hardware).  We all know that Nintendo has turned a profit on every console they've put out, and the GC still had a shot in the arm left in the form of Twilight Princess.  It's not like the PS3 would have made much headway a year later, but of course that's in hindsight.

But also like I said, the inadequacies of the Wiimote only affect non-casual games, or in other words "most games not made by Nintendo."  And since Nintendo bet their farm on the casuals this generation, in the end it really didn't make a difference.  Sure, the 3rd parties couldn't do what they needed to do to make their games work on the system, but hey...what does Nintendo care so long as the latest Wii ____ game keeps selling by the truckload?  Well, at least in closing this rather long tangent Nintendo now possibly has worthy competition in the "motion control" field, so maybe now we'll finally see what they're capable of and gaming as a whole will benefit.

So yeah...how about that media?  ;)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: rbtr on December 16, 2009, 10:42:03 AM
Maybe they didn't put it out cause they could "get away with it", but rather because they couldn't afford not to.

Share holders probably didn't like the idea of "lets wait two years, while out competitors get more money, and while we continue to lose market, so that the tech is all the way there for this thing."  Nintendo was in a hole, it went into survival mode, and did what it does best, and innovated...to the best of it's ability.  There's deadlines on these things, I'm sure a lot of the design team would have loved to waited it out, and I'm MORE sure they would have loved to continue to feed their children.  So they did what they had to, and released the thing.  It didn't work out like it should have, so two year later they fix it for 20 bucks.  Would have rather they went ahead and put out a new console to fix it?  Or do you prefer the situation where we were playing gamecubes up until last July?  Or would you rather have the situation we have now?  I know none of them are ideal, but I think that where we're at is probably the best one.

Wario Land had some neat achievements.  So did Metroid.  I play a lot of games on steam, and they have achievements, it's kinda cool.  I like to check my community page occasionally and see that "oh, neat, he finally got hunter punter in l4d"  but it's no big.  I've never bragged about it, and nobody else has either...I hardly notice them.  I like that in team fortress 2, getting achievements unlock things.  The thing is, achievements lose meaning because people farm them...so it doesn't even matter.

Yeah, Wii online is kinda bogus.  But, tetris DS is one of my favorite games to play online, it's a faceless battle, but it's nice to know that I'm playing against a person.  Mario kart had good online, and let you bring a buddy, plus leader boards and stuff.  I usually play my Wii alone though, or with friends in the same room.  I don't expect a rigorous online experience out of any dedicated console, I expect that out of my PC.

DLC would be great if every game that used it followed Team Fortress 2's example, and let you have it for free.  In that the team continues to develop content even now, 2 years later, and gives it to you for free.  They make big events out of big updates, have free weekends, and get even more people to buy the game.  Valve takes the approach to "add new content, make more new customers, and word of mouth sells." vs. a lot of other developers who say "get money from current customers."  I also like Tripwire's approach in Killing Floor, where they have huge content updates for free, but make character skins you can buy for a couple of bucks.  They use the extra money from those to help fund more content updates.  In addition to free weekends, and word of mouth.  DLC can work, but most developers have the wrong mindset.  I think it's also more difficult to approach on a console.  Microsoft enforces rules to where you can't give stuff for free on the marketplace, so valve charges the bare minimum for its content updates.  Currently for tf2 they are just saving up the updates until they feel that it's fair to charge xbox users for it, putting them in one big pack.

HD games are pretty unimportant to me.  My housemate has a PS3 hooked up to his 1080p 32' LCD.  Most of the game only output 720p, and most the games don't even look that great.  Uncharted had great graphics, and the character animation in the second one was good, but I mean, it's a video game.  It was weird to see everything so realistically rendered and still have him do normal video game stuff.  Same with killzone, and metal gear solid.  For the type of game that the ps3/360 are trying to make it's important to them to have that horsepower behind them.  For the types of game that Nintendo is making on the Wii that horsepower just isn't as important.  Does Mario really NEED to be in 1080p with however many millions of polygons?  No, and I understand that it wouldn't hurt it, but it also doesn't really help it.  Most of the time I watch my roomie play PS3 games I just think about how completely uninterested in playing it, but how nice the pictures were.

Motion controls are WAAAAAAY more innovative than achievements, I'm not sure that I understand how this argument is even happening.

Just my two cents, probably wont argue any of this.  Because it's really just about whats important to you or me as a customer, and our expectations as a customer.  So I mean, I don't want a PS3 because I don't feel it does what I want it to as a customer.  And my Wii exceeded and fulfilled all of my customer expectations, which were "plays nintendo games so I can feel like a kid again".  My PC does everything else.

sorry, no tl;dr
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Ian Sane on December 16, 2009, 10:49:58 AM
My attitude for DLC is simple.  If the new content is introduced long after the game's release it's acceptable.  It's no different than an expansion pack then.  The idea being that you've probably beaten the game already and you can buy these extra levels and such to extend the experience.  The company gets a purchase from you and you get more mileage out of your game.  It's good for everyone.  DLC is a rip-off scam when that content is available from DAY ONE.  That's not an expansion pack that's content that was already done when the game was released but they just chose to not include it unless you pay up.  It's the difference between in the pre-DLC world what would have been included in the game to begin with and what would have been an expansion pack or a cookie cutter sequel.

Regarding brainwashed Nintendo fans, every fanbase has the die-hards that never EVER see any wrong in the object of their fandom.  With Nintendo these are the fans that defend absolutely everything, love every product, and recite whatever the company line is at the present moment.  These are the fans whose opinion flip-flops if Nintendo's attitude towards something changes.  If you're a rational person and your opinion is along the same line as these people (you just arrived at that opinion in a different way) then they're fine.  But if you don't agree with them they're insufferable.

While IGN casting all Nintendo fans as being this kind of irrational fanatic is unfair I can see why one would make this assumption.  Right now Nintendo is at it's most controversial.  Yes they're making lots of money but there has never been such polarizing views regarding them.  Even in Nintendo's own fanbase there are split opinions. 

Here are hard facts
- Nintendo decided to target a more casual market this generation than they had in the past.
- The Wii hardware is significantly inferior to the other consoles.  Nintendo has publicly admitted they did this on purpose and that part of this was to make a profit off of the hardware sold.
- Nintendo has ported several Gamecube games to the Wii with motion controls.  These games were released during a time that no new Wii product was being released from Nintendo.
- The majority of third party games announced for the PS3 and Xbox 360 are never released for the Wii.
- After stating publicly that they hoped the Wii remote would be the "new controller standard" Nintendo released an add-on to their controller that improves it's functionality.
- The Wii does not support HDTVs.
- Online Wii games require the use of friend codes.

All of that stuff is true.  All of those could be used to support rational and logical criticism of the Wii and/or Nintendo themselves.  And yet it's pretty common to have people try to defend every single one of them.  I think the problem is Nintendo has put themselves in such a situation where there is too much criticism that can be made against them that really requires a leap of faith to defend.  That's going to drive rational fans away from the discussion and attract the mindless devotees.  So the die-hard defenders become the voice.  So when you criticize Nintendo now you get more doublethink "Nintendo is always right" crap.  And that just wears you out and you start to distance yourself from the fanbase and start to assume they're all brainwashed morons because a LOT of them are and the brainwashed morons are the first to jump to Nintendo's defense.

The less reasons you give people to criticize you the easier it is to defend you so you attract more rational people to your side.  The crazies also don't expose themselves as such as much because they too can defend you in a rational way without having to resort to huge leaps of logic to support their view.

The same thing happens with the other consoles.  Sony announces the orginal PS3 price and the Sony lunatics pop out of the woodwork to defend them while the rational Sony fans either jump ship, criticize the company they're a fan of, or keep their mouths shut because they can't defend it.  If something can't be defended in a rational or logical way then only the brainwashed morons will come forward to defend it.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Invincible Donkey Kong on December 16, 2009, 11:12:17 AM
You forgot to mention the remote is a useless waggle gimmick that has never accomplished anything other than destroying gaming forever.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on December 16, 2009, 11:29:31 AM
To me waggle became proven as useful when I played Onslaught. It just feels natural especially since it allows you to shake the controller in any way you please to trigger the functions so you don't have to worry about doing it the way the game expects and can do it the way you find natural (e.g. a wiping motion for wiping the visor or a swinging motion for swinging the laser whip, the game only checks whether you pressed the button to draw the laser whip before swinging so there's no misdetection). That's entirely waggle, it's a completely digital act that could have been done with a button but feels better with a motion and makes the controls easier too (I guarantee that on dual analog controls some of those functions would have been mapped to L3 or R3).

As for the anonymous online multiplayer, I play games on the Wii and the PC online and they both feel equal in that regard. PC players rarely communicate either and you mostly recognize people because you've played with them before and saw their playstyle, not because you talked to them. Sure, the PC has community features but I rarely use them, it's very rare that I play the same games as my friends (and with games like MW2 there's the problem that most of them got the console version and there's no cross-platform play).

Quote
- The Wii does not support HDTVs.

Correction: The Wii does not utilize features beyond those of an EDTV. Saying it doesn't support HDTVs sounds like plugging it into an HDTV wouldn't even get a picture displayed.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 16, 2009, 02:18:50 PM
Quote
Regarding brainwashed Nintendo fans, every fanbase has the die-hards that never EVER see any wrong in the object of their fandom.  With Nintendo these are the fans that defend absolutely everything, love every product, and recite whatever the company line is at the present moment.  These are the fans whose opinion flip-flops if Nintendo's attitude towards something changes.  If you're a rational person and your opinion is along the same line as these people (you just arrived at that opinion in a different way) then they're fine.  But if you don't agree with them they're insufferable.

I think the real problem isn't that said fanboys could exist, Ian.  It's that they are used as strawmen for any kind of dissent with IGN's opinion.  And furthermore I rarely hear about IGN's PS3 department melting down when Sony does something stupid (like Home or PSPGo) and they call out a bunch of fanboys on their podcasts.  It seems like these extreme Nintendo fanboys are the only ones that exist sometimes.  And this is deliberately intentional, because they are in the severe minority both marketwise and even internet wise, which is why this podcast of theirs backfired and got everybody talking... about how much they suck and how predictable it is.  Any publicity =\= Good publicity.

Quote
While IGN casting all Nintendo fans as being this kind of irrational fanatic is unfair I can see why one would make this assumption.  Right now Nintendo is at it's most controversial.  Yes they're making lots of money but there has never been such polarizing views regarding them.  Even in Nintendo's own fanbase there are split opinions.

LOL "Controversial?"  They just got off making a 2D Mario Platformer on the Console, Ian.  You find that "controversial?"  Didn't you want that?  Making money is "controversial?"  So the criticism here is "some people disagree with them?"  The only thing really "controversial" I see is that Nintendo was a huge success when all the press and third parties bet against them.

Quote
Here are hard facts

Oh boy a list.

Quote
- Nintendo decided to target a more casual market this generation than they had in the past.

Ugh you bone it on the first one.  This isn't a "fact," this is an opinion.  And much like when they said Nintendo was targeting "casuals and Girls" with the DS, it's not even that true as an opinion.

Quote
- The Wii hardware is significantly inferior to the other consoles.  Nintendo has publicly admitted they did this on purpose and that part of this was to make a profit off of the hardware sold.

Yes they do want to make a profit.  Such things are not unheard of in videogames (maybe this generation it is.)  So the problem is... Nintendo designs their product to bring in a little profit?  They even do this with the DS, Ian!  They even did it with the superior GC, and they were railed for not having online in every game (Yet Sony got away with no centralized online AND inferior graphics last time).

Quote
- Nintendo has ported several Gamecube games to the Wii with motion controls.  These games were released during a time that no new Wii product was being released from Nintendo.

This is true, but of course they were released during a time no new Wii product was being "released."  They aren't tech wizards able to fabricate games in days.

Quote
- The majority of third party games announced for the PS3 and Xbox 360 are never released for the Wii.

Whose fault is this?  Is it even possible it could be their fault and not Nintendo's?  Don't blame the victim.  It isn't classy.

Quote
- After stating publicly that they hoped the Wii remote would be the "new controller standard" Nintendo released an add-on to their controller that improves it's functionality.

Aww that is weak, Ian.  Come ON.  There are always going to be controller improvements,  You could say this about ANYTHING.  "Sony SAYS that they were setting a 'new standard of graphics' with the PS2.  But those fiends UPGRADED the graphics on the PS3.  Where to now, Sony?  Hmm?  Off to hypocrite-ville on the the Greek island of Hypocrete?!  And Microsoft... I thought Xbox Live was supposed to be the 'robust, perfect online experience.'  What's with adding achievement point to everything?  Fiends!  Fiends I say!"

Quote
All of that stuff is true.  All of those could be used to support rational and logical criticism of the Wii and/or Nintendo themselves.  And yet it's pretty common to have people try to defend every single one of them.

Yeah Ian, it's called debate.  Nobody has to just swallow IGN's or your vision of things, nor must everybody internalize the standards of either.  If anything, I've found even having reasons to merely impartially "explain" from a financial or strategic standpoint any of those would place me with the fanboys, somehow.  And somehow making profit is one of those "hard facts" that "fanboys must accept."  That's lunacy.  Of course they're making money.  They have several successful products and games.  Dur.

Quote
I think the problem is Nintendo has put themselves in such a situation where there is too much criticism

It takes two to tango Ian.  Nintendo's been heavily criticized since the N64 for God's sake.  Do a controlled experiment.  You claim that Nintendo has heavily changed.  Let's accept that they have.  Did the Criticize the DS?  Yes.  Did IGN criticize the GC?  Yes.  Did they criticize the N64?  Yes, very much so.  So if Nintendo actually HAS changed, then IGN will heavily criticize Nintendo no matter what, because that's the only constant.

It's almost like Nintendo's not the problem, isn't it?  And this again, forces one to accept that simply the act of criticizing is based on valid assumptions.  If it didn't seem like IGN and most of the press in general had an ax to grind, you might have a point, but some of their criticisms are just as unfounded if not more so than any fanboy ramblings (and they get PAID, too.)

Quote
So when you criticize Nintendo now you get more doublethink "Nintendo is always right" crap.

Once again, your criticism is not guaranteed to be swallowed.  It will have to stand up to scrutiny and a "sniff test," so to speak.  And you even said it yourself, IGN's mostly to blame because they were criticizing Nintendo left and right forever, for all sorts of stupid ****.  Even if they did have valid criticisms, they've ruined their own editorial reputations with "Kart skins" and doom and gloom soothsaying that nobody will take THEM seriously.  Even when they say something indefensible like "you're all brainwashed." 

So the only people left to agree with them are the deranged IGN fanboys because normal people don't like the insinuation that they are brainwashed.  And it makes it hard to debate them because they'll be screaming that "IGN is right" or his concern-trolling cousin "they have a point" and nobody actually wants to see if IGN actually was correct in calling their dissenters "brainwashed."

Quote
The less reasons you give people to criticize you the easier it is to defend you so you attract more rational people to your side.  The crazies also don't expose themselves as such as much because they too can defend you in a rational way without having to resort to huge leaps of logic to support their view.

The problem is you haven't set why anybody should accept your terms and facts (including the LOL "controller standard one") as a given.  And since nobody will debate any of these without resorting to "fanboy" (the video game forum equivalent of Godwin's law), anybody with a logical opinion in defense or merely an explanatory role will get shouted down for "supporting the controversial Nintendo."

Remember, they tried the SAME THING with the DS.  They tried to bury it under "minigame" "casual" "for girls" "no third parties" and labeled anybody who had one or liked its games a "Nintendo fanboy" and look where that got them.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: vudu on December 16, 2009, 02:28:19 PM
OH GOD LET THE QUOTE RAPING STOP

Seriously; do either of you expect to win this argument?  Can't we just agree to disagree and move on?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 16, 2009, 02:51:23 PM
I dunno vudu, it's seems pretty civil.  Is robust, yet civil argument not allowed on NWR now?  Must all of our posts be bite-sized snark/troll attempts so nobody has a rational thought again?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: vudu on December 16, 2009, 02:54:29 PM
My eyes begin to blur after staring as walls of text for what seems like hours on end.  I'm guess I'm just not cut out for reading anything longer than 3 sentences.

I must go lie down now; my head hurts.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 16, 2009, 03:40:25 PM
My eyes begin to blur after staring as walls of text for what seems like hours on end.

Message boards have text.  Pull it together, moderator.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Ian Sane on December 16, 2009, 04:37:51 PM
Quote
LOL "Controversial?"  They just got off making a 2D Mario Platformer on the Console, Ian.  You find that "controversial?"  Didn't you want that?  Making money is "controversial?"  So the criticism here is "some people disagree with them?"  The only thing really "controversial" I see is that Nintendo was a huge success when all the press and third parties bet against them.

Come on.  Everyone knows the Wii is polarizing.  Even among Nintendo fans there is considerable difference of opinion.  That makes it controversial.
 
Quote

 Ugh you bone it on the first one.  This isn't a "fact," this is an opinion.

No it's a fact.  Nintendo themselves have stated they've gone after a new audience with the Wii.  They talked about non-gamers and the blue ocean group and all that.  Maybe you just don't like me saying "casual"?  Fine, use whatever term you want.  The FACT is Nintendo is targetting a different group with the Wii.  I didn't say they're ONLY targetting that group.  THAT is opinion.  But them targetting this new group is a fact.
 
And I'm not going to respond to each defense you have against each of those items.  That's not the point.  What I'm saying is that these are facts about the Wii and they are common sources of criticism and Nintendo fans have to understand that people have a problem with those.  You give a justification for Nintendo releasing lesser hardware.  That's a sound justification but people are going to dislike it and Nintendo fans have to understand that.  It's incredibly obvious to me that someone would have a rational reason for not being cool with these points and yet there's an almost "how dare thee" response to it.  No one ever says "yeah Nintendo did this because of that and it doesn't bug me but I can see why someone else would be bothered by it."
 
Regarding the third party thing, that's a fact about the Wii and is a common complaint about the Wii.  I said "logical criticism of the Wii and/or Nintendo themselves."  "And/or" is the key.  The third party thing is a problem with the Wii.  I didn't say it was Nintendo's fault, for that would be opinion, but it is something about the Wii and it's something that would hurt someone's opinion of it.
 
Quote

 It takes two to tango Ian.  Nintendo's been heavily criticized since the N64 for God's sake.  Do a controlled experiment.  You claim that Nintendo has heavily changed.  Let's accept that they have.  Did the Criticize the DS?  Yes.  Did IGN criticize the GC?  Yes.  Did they criticize the N64?  Yes, very much so.  So if Nintendo actually HAS changed, then IGN will heavily criticize Nintendo no matter what, because that's the only constant.

Yeah and I feel Nintendo has been criticized since the N64 justifiably.  Your argument assumes that Nintendo changing is automatically a good thing.  Why can't Nintendo change from something worthy of criticism to something else worthy of cristicism?  This is what is frustrating - the assumption that Nintendo will be bitched about no matter what.  Does that not promote the idea of brainwashed Nintendo fanboys?  Is it not possible that Nintendo has changed but not in a way to address the issues people had with them in the first place?  Who's doing it first?  Those that say "you're brainwashed" or those that say "you bitch no matter what"?
 
For me the whole situation is that Nintendo was shitting the bed with the existing videogame market so they focused on this new market that would not have the same concerns.  They deflected criticism not by addressing but by skirting past it and finding someone who wouldn't complain.  And in this scenario how can anyone say that Nintendo changed and we all still bitch at them for kicks?
 
Quote

 Remember, they tried the SAME THING with the DS.  They tried to bury it under "minigame" "casual" "for girls" "no third parties" and labeled anybody who had one or liked its games a "Nintendo fanboy" and look where that got them.

And they don't say that so much anymore because the DS got its **** together.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Stogi on December 16, 2009, 04:39:59 PM
It's been a year and it's literally the exact same argument from both sides. I, for once, agree with vudu.

I think you guys just like to argue.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on December 16, 2009, 05:34:30 PM
Arguments are the basis of entertainment.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: mac<censored> on December 16, 2009, 05:43:04 PM
Did I mention, Twilight Princess rules!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 16, 2009, 06:09:41 PM
... WHY, YOU-- !
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 16, 2009, 08:18:51 PM
http://wii.ign.com/articles/105/1055789p1.html (http://wii.ign.com/articles/105/1055789p1.html)

Oh boy...here we go again.  There's so much utter FAIL in this roundtable discussion that it's difficult to believe IGN's not just trolling for hits these days.  Apparently, according to IGN, the reason that M-rated games don't sell on Wii is because Nintendo focused on casual games for the platform, and that the games use motion control.  It's not because the M-rated games not named Silent Hill or RE4 have been at best mediocre so far or that these titles usually get next to no advertising or anything...

I especially had to facepalm at the guy from IGN Guides who says he's planning on trading in his Wii version of Silent Hill for the PS2 one...when the game was built for the Wii.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: mac<censored> on December 16, 2009, 09:00:19 PM
http://wii.ign.com/articles/105/1055789p1.html (http://wii.ign.com/articles/105/1055789p1.html)

...
I especially had to facepalm at the guy from IGN Guides who says he's planning on trading in his Wii version of Silent Hill for the PS2 one...when the game was built for the Wii.

... and the wii hardware is significantly more powerful/better than the PS2 (I'm not exactly a graphics whore, but PS2 games are just generally ugly, despite the vast amount of effort that developers put into it).
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mop it up on December 16, 2009, 09:01:08 PM
No More Heroes and MadWorld were both stylized action/adventure, rated Mature, and critically acclaimed by the big name reviewers. This sounds like something that would sell WELL on the other systems. FAR better than it sold on the Wii. But that's just my opinion.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 16, 2009, 09:07:47 PM
No More Heroes and MadWorld were both stylized action/adventure, rated Mature, and critically acclaimed by the big name reviewers. This sounds like something that would sell WELL on the other systems. FAR better than it sold on the Wii. But that's just my opinion.

No doubt those games probably have a bigger audience on the HD systems than on the Wii, though I think people would find those games mediocre on any platform.  I just take issue with the theme of this editorial that the Wii is where Mature games go to die by its very nature, and that it's all Nintendo's fault.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Mop it up on December 16, 2009, 09:12:09 PM
I think only an M-rated game in an established franchise is going to have a chance at selling on Wii, and this is why Call of Duty posts decent numbers. But those numbers don't really compare to what the other versions sell, so releasing an exclusive M-rated game on Wii simply isn't worth it.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 16, 2009, 10:03:01 PM
Alright I'll end my speil with this, because, unfortunately, I agree in Kashogi, in that I get tired of arguing with people who just want to argue and be anti-fans (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=anti-fan) and all that.

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And they don't say that so much anymore because the DS got its **** together.

Or, more likely, they couldn't sling that stuff around anymore without getting a reader revolt.  And when did the DS "get its **** together?"  Did it magically become more powerful than the PSP?  Did the DS suddenly begin to have social network services and digital distribution?  These were things they complained about before.  Why don't they now?  Because they'd get swarmed with angry emails and lose even more readers, that's why.

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No it's a fact.  Nintendo themselves have stated they've gone after a new audience with the Wii.  They talked about non-gamers and the blue ocean group and all that.  Maybe you just don't like me saying "casual"?  Fine, use whatever term you want.  The FACT is Nintendo is targetting a different group with the Wii.  I didn't say they're ONLY targetting that group.  THAT is opinion.  But them targetting this new group is a fact.

Didn't you want them to target more mainstream consumers and not just Nintendo fans a couple of years ago?  And now you're bitching them out for doing it?  I just hope IGN stays consistent and Calls out Sony and MS for "selling out" to these same people because that's who they're aiming at now with their Natals and Sony Wands.

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Yeah and I feel Nintendo has been criticized since the N64 justifiably.  Your argument assumes that Nintendo changing is automatically a good thing

No my argument is that, accepting that Nintendo has changed completely from a Nintendo fanservicing company to one more in tune with customers at large, they were bitched at the entire way, sometimes for completely contradictory reasons, like being behind in the marketplace and then being ahead in the marketplace and "not deserving it."  For not innovating enough and then for innovating too much.  And my favorite, for being failures and then being successes.

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You give a justification for Nintendo releasing lesser hardware.  That's a sound justification but people are going to dislike it and Nintendo fans have to understand that.

I don't seem to remember IGN's Sony channel having lengthy podcasts about the power of the PS2 and calling their owners "brainwashed."  Or owners of the PS2 having to "justify" releasing hardware that was appreciably weaker then the Dreamcast.  What did Sony intentionally release weak hardware and profit off of it?  Those FIENDS.

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This is what is frustrating - the assumption that Nintendo will be bitched about no matter what. Does that not promote the idea of brainwashed Nintendo fanboys?

It's doubly aggravating when you have to read tired editorials with the same crticisms them for years.  And again, like you said, IGN is to blame for this, because they wasted their credibility whining about "kart skins" "casuals" "Kiddy" and "Next Virtual Boy" that most people don't pay much attention to them anymore, no matter what they say, valid or not.  And it's interesting you should say "promote the idea" of brainwashed Nintendo fanboys.  Who is doing the brainwashing?  Nintendo by having quasi-unpopular stances based on the idea that they don't want to lose billions of dollars to be popular on select internet forums, or IGN wasting thier time with kart skins and calling their readers "brainwashed" for disagreeing with them?  The "brainwashing" may not even be Nintendo's doing, see.

Alright, that's all...

Oh dear God, IGN did it again in the meantime, didn't they?  Great.  I'll probably not comment on this, except to say that, on the topic of M-rated games on Nintendo consoles, a lot of hay was made when GTA: Chinatown Wars on the DS "flopped" according to Pachter and the rest of the games media, and they spouted similar lines about "mature" games and Nintendo.  Flashforward to a PSP port of the game, and it tanked, like really badly.  Selling like 14-19k for its entire month of release.  So far the DS version has outsold it by 20 times.  Somehow GTA: Chinatown Wars is no longer an important title to discuss, eh?

And "M-rated" debates are as tired as the hills and even today they mean little as apparently most adults buy E-rated games, so it says nothing about userbase anymore.  *yawn*  This isn't even a new trolling method.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on December 17, 2009, 01:57:41 AM
it's difficult to believe IGN's not just trolling for hits these days.

They outright said that they made the podcast because the editorial brought them so much traffic.


Reading the intro bit of the roundtable, I noticed that they talk about mature in more senses than just blood and gore. Well, what's more mature than Wii Fit, not escaping from the real world but facing your problems and actively working against them? An art game may have an obscure message but Wii Fit has a clear message: You are unhealthy and need to work on yourself. Philosophizing about the ills of society is one thing, actually facing your own faults is much harder.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on December 17, 2009, 06:38:47 AM
If you read the comments on the Wii is lazy article, clearly the vast majority say somthing like " right on, I've got a Wii too and I couldn't agree more.". So are they really trolling?  Not really. Just delivering the content their audience wants. It's the loud small minority that get upset about it. The same small minority that crowned The Conduit pre release and bought the few copies it managed to sell. 

IGN doesn't haven't an agenda to kill the Wii. Hell they  basically spawned out of N64.com.  IGN is an equal console offender.  I follow the PS3 channel pretty regularly and I've heard countless jokes about Home, voice chat on PSN, PSP Go and it's online browser. And doesn't IGN call their 360 show "Three Red Lights?".  If the editors think a product contains an issue, they come right out and say it, regardless of which corporation designed it.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on December 17, 2009, 07:04:03 AM
I think they actually brought non-Nintendo staff on the controversial NVC, i.e. people who prefer the other consoles. The other podcasts are done by the teams that cover those consoles, they aren't nearly as negative on their own systems. Hell, at one point the discussion leader asked the other staff if they had played Galaxy. You'd think that would be a given.

It's the loud small minority that get upset about it. The same small minority that crowned The Conduit pre release and bought the few copies it managed to sell.

Wait, I distinctly recall IGN being one of the biggest proponents of The Conduit.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 17, 2009, 08:58:18 AM
I think they actually brought non-Nintendo staff on the controversial NVC, i.e. people who prefer the other consoles. The other podcasts are done by the teams that cover those consoles, they aren't nearly as negative on their own systems. Hell, at one point the discussion leader asked the other staff if they had played Galaxy. You'd think that would be a given.

Hmmm...that sounds similar to something I might have said...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on December 17, 2009, 09:25:55 AM
Quote
If you read the comments on the Wii is lazy article, clearly the vast majority say somthing like " right on, I've got a Wii too and I couldn't agree more.". So are they really trolling?  Not really. Just delivering the content their audience wants. It's the loud small minority that get upset about it. The same small minority that crowned The Conduit pre release and bought the few copies it managed to sell.
Nope, IGNorant Gaming Network has gathered IGNorant gamers. It's the best of both worlds.

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Hell, at one point the discussion leader asked the other staff if they had played Galaxy. You'd think that would be a given.
Galaxy has color, not space marines and no nanomachines. They wouldn't have played it regardless of how good it is.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 17, 2009, 10:22:05 AM
It's the loud small minority that get upset about it. The same small minority that crowned The Conduit pre release and bought the few copies it managed to sell.

Wait, I distinctly recall IGN being one of the biggest proponents of The Conduit.

It's clear the brainwashed Wii visitors are the audience IGN has been and is supposed to be catering to.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on December 17, 2009, 11:30:43 AM
Quoting my favorite posts.
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The Wii definitely needs more M games. If they want to get morehardcore gamers though they need to upgrade to HD and get more features.
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m-rated games don't flourish on the wii brecause first-person-shooters don't flourish and suck on the wii.
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LOL...keep bashing the Wii for hits, IGN.
 
 Rather than make an article bashing NINTENDO (?) for 3rd partymature games not selling, why don't you start bashing the 3rd partieswho put out mature on-rails and niche-styled crap on the Wii withlittle-to-no advertising - making them DESTINED to fail.
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I just love IGN editors' liberal use of the words ''mature'' and ''hardcore''. You people are embarrasing, really.

And these are all on the first page. =D
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Ian Sane on December 17, 2009, 12:19:02 PM
Regarding the idea that M-rated games go to the Wii to die, I think that's stupid.  I don't think any third party really gives the Wii a fair shot so to come to any conclusions based on what's been released doesn't make any sense.  You can't evaluate the skills of players in a rigged game.

We don't really know the exact reason for the Wii's third party situation.  I think the huge hardware difference is a big part of it but you really figure that the market leading console would attract some more big exclusives, no?  But anyway I can't think of ANY Wii third party game, mature or not, that I think would have been a big deal on the PS360 and bombed on the Wii.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 17, 2009, 01:10:06 PM
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But anyway I can't think of ANY Wii third party game, mature or not, that I think would have been a big deal on the PS360 and bombed on the Wii.

Deadspace
....no that wasn't a big deal on PS360 and they changed the genre of Wii version

Dead Rising
....no they gimped the hell out of the Wii version on that too, not to mention it was really late

Modern Warfare
....LOL 2 years late and buried under the MW2 advertising

Raving Rabbids
....no that bombed on the PS360 not the Wii

Final Fantasy
....no that's really not the same game

You know what, I can't think of any either.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 17, 2009, 01:20:42 PM
I might put Silent Hill: Shattered Memories as a game that would do well on the PS3/360 but not on Wii just because it's a familiar name on those platforms and a new IP on Wii.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on December 17, 2009, 01:31:42 PM
Considering the game is a first on Nintendo, I would agree with Broodwars. But will it sell well on the other systems? The last few game in the SH franchise weren't that great, and weren't that popular.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 17, 2009, 02:02:29 PM
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So are they really trolling?  Not really. Just delivering the content their audience wants.

Apparently not. (http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/ign.com#trafficstats)  That's quite a lot of site traffic they've lost since 2008.  Maybe they do have an agenda to troll the Wii in exchange for Site hits.  What's funny is I don't think it worked.  Again, any publicity is not always good publicity.

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If you read the comments on the Wii is lazy article, clearly the vast majority say somthing like " right on, I've got a Wii too and I couldn't agree more.".

Participant bias.  You don't know if that's all they people that read or listened to it.  Considering their site didn't get any worthwhile bump, I can imagine anybody disgusted with it would leave, make no post,  and never come back.  If you take a consumer behavior class, they'd teach you the those are the most dangerous consumers, because they'll leave without telling you why, leaving you with a smaller group of nothing but praising sycophants which will give the impression of doing a good job when in reality you've just sealed yourself inside a posh coffin.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on December 17, 2009, 03:28:11 PM
I had no idea fan fiction made good articles.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on December 17, 2009, 07:20:43 PM


Apparently not. (http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/ign.com#trafficstats)  That's quite a lot of site traffic they've lost since 2008.  Maybe they do have an agenda to troll the Wii in exchange for Site hits.  What's funny is I don't think it worked.  Again, any publicity is not always good publicity.

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If you read the comments on the Wii is lazy article, clearly the vast majority say somthing like " right on, I've got a Wii too and I couldn't agree more.".

Participant bias.  You don't know if that's all they people that read or listened to it.  Considering their site didn't get any worthwhile bump, I can imagine anybody disgusted with it would leave, make no post,  and never come back.  If you take a consumer behavior class, they'd teach you the those are the most dangerous consumers, because they'll leave without telling you why, leaving you with a smaller group of nothing but praising sycophants which will give the impression of doing a good job when in reality you've just sealed yourself inside a posh coffin.

A posh coffin that's made them a lot of cash the last decade.  But I guess that their days are short lived since most gamers will now probably go to Malstrom and Jack Loftus for non pathetic articles.  Guess I'm screwed.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on December 17, 2009, 08:56:10 PM
Can't spell IGNorant without IGN.

Can't have money hats on the interwebs without trolling the Wii nowadays.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 17, 2009, 09:15:49 PM


Apparently not. (http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/ign.com#trafficstats)  That's quite a lot of site traffic they've lost since 2008.  Maybe they do have an agenda to troll the Wii in exchange for Site hits.  What's funny is I don't think it worked.  Again, any publicity is not always good publicity.

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If you read the comments on the Wii is lazy article, clearly the vast majority say somthing like " right on, I've got a Wii too and I couldn't agree more.".

Participant bias.  You don't know if that's all they people that read or listened to it.  Considering their site didn't get any worthwhile bump, I can imagine anybody disgusted with it would leave, make no post,  and never come back.  If you take a consumer behavior class, they'd teach you the those are the most dangerous consumers, because they'll leave without telling you why, leaving you with a smaller group of nothing but praising sycophants which will give the impression of doing a good job when in reality you've just sealed yourself inside a posh coffin.

A posh coffin that's made them a lot of cash the last decade.  But I guess that their days are short lived since most gamers will now probably go to Malstrom and Jack Loftus for non pathetic articles.  Guess I'm screwed.

Is this supposed to mean anything?  Isn't money "not everything" and not an indicator of quality?  Isn't a main indicator of "brainwashed" Nintendo fanboys that they talk about "profit" instead of game quality?  Who's "brainwashed" now?

Ironically, IGN has disdain for Nintendo making money.  So why should anybody care if IGN does when they meltdown and troll everybody?  Why should that excuse their elitist insulting behavior when it doesn't even excuse Nintendo making New Super Mario Bros?

And LOL "a lot of cash."  Plz 2 B researching before posting.  Being a subsidiary of NewsCorp is not "a lot of cash."  They got bought out because they sold out.  But I guess selling out isn't so bad when you're not Nintendo, eh, even if Nintendo's only called that for making games those other sell-outs don't like.

EDIT: Who is this Jack Loftus guy?  The whole point in creating a strawman is that you take a familiar, yet unpopular person or label and use that as the easily reviled strawman in place of the position.  But who is this guy?  Is he some random blogger?  Why is he mentioned in the same breath as IGN as an antipodes?  Do they have the same style of caustic editorial?  Is this why IGN lost half its readers from 2008 to 2009, because they act like fanboy bloggers?  Lots of questions.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on December 18, 2009, 05:51:07 AM
Jack Loftus write for infendo.com and often posts Malstrom articles and refers to Malstrom in his posts.  He's known, by those who read him to... well, basically to follow the exactly same industry philosophies of Malstrom and from what I can tell you and KDR. 

Not my cup of tea, but man am I tired of this old debate.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 18, 2009, 06:11:18 AM
Jack Loftus write for infendo.com and often posts Malstrom articles and refers to Malstrom in his posts.  He's known, by those who read him to... well, basically to follow the exactly same industry philosophies of Malstrom and from what I can tell you and KDR. 

Not my cup of tea, but man am I tired of this old debate.

Well that's nice about Jack.  Doesn't seem that important though, definitely not one to obsess over and use as an example.  Seems kinda like a small fry, don't know why he'd be in anybody's rolodex.

And Me?  Follow Malstrom?  Nah.  Interesting fellow though.  Has a batter track record than IGN and Pachter.  Drives certain people batty.  But no, despite the books he cites (he didn't invent Blue Ocean Strategy or Technological Disruption or Upstreaming), he's sometimes a curmudgeon drunk on nostalgia, and that's his prerogative.  Simply understanding what he says and cites doesn't make one an acolyte.  I understand Karl Marx pretty well, but that doesn't make me a Marxist. (Completely anyway.)

What's embarrassing for IGN, though, is that he's done a better job covering Nintendo than they have, and he posts infrequently and has no press connections.  And IGN, with their "lots of cash" and "industry connections" can't do anything more than forecast doom and crack "casual" jokes.  THAT gets old, especially when they mock people who mail in asking why they haven't done their jobs.  Why put up with that when you can get trolled on a blog for free?  (Heck I don't even need to leave this forum.)

Of course I'd get tired of argument too if it sometimes didn't get really funny.  Also, I like applying myself and keeping the little grey cells sharp, dig?  Gotta keep that critical mind functional.  And, finally, I don't think things can be explained in little snarky soundbites all the time.  No need for casualizing forum posts, right?
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on December 18, 2009, 06:47:28 AM
Covering?  I'm not sure that's the right word.  Maybe he was able to better predict the outcome of the sales race, and maybe he has a better understanding of what makes Nintendo a unique business, but when you say the word cover, I think of all the reviews, previews, and news stories that IGN puts up on a daily basis. 

I have no horse in this race.  I'm not really following this thread.  I know where I stand, and I don't feel compelled to defend myself to anyone.  I just think there's a difference between analyzing business trends and writing about video games.  I'm more interested in the latter.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 18, 2009, 07:57:01 AM
Maybe so, perhaps I should have said "editorial coverage."  I'm not gonna knock the review writers and preview writers, I man heck I used to do some of that.  And it's hard work.  Which is a shame because the editorial side of it really kills any credibility and the hard work those guys do.  Would anybody take your review or preview seriously when your boss just called most of your readers fools and idiots?

But part of games journalism is to follow the business side at least as much as the editorial and preview parts.  And unfortunately this is where the big websites have been boning it pretty hard.  Analysts can become fanboys in a heartbeat when proven wrong, just ask that Michael Pachter fella.  There is no intellectual curiosity as to how or why Nintendo succeeded.  They just repeat themselves and change the dates, hoping this time it'll be true.  It's just not good form or even good business.  Who wants to hear an analyst or an editorial guy who got it wrong and won't even own up to it, and instead blame others?  But maybe business discussion and its ramifications have no place in this generation, as evidenced by a plethora of decisions being made without thinking of opportunity or even basic business sense?  Which is fine, I guess, but that doesn't mean the business side doesn't exist anymore and won't have major ramifications for the future. 

For instance, did you know that Sony's Game Division has lost almost all of the money that they have ever made since 1996?  You may think "who cares" but a cash-strapped Sony isn't going to be very competitive on the qualities people have been expecting from them.  Heck they may even have to leave the console market and YES, that is possible, as they have less money now than when Sega called it quits in 2001.  This isn't fanboy partisanship.  This is just numbers.

This is stuff they should at least have somebody covering instead of sneering at and denouncing profitable companies.  I mean think about it.  Not only is Nintendo insanely profitable, but even without the insane part, they're the only one of the Big Three to even pull down a profit this entire generation, while the other two have lost billions, sending one almost back to square one.  Even if you like the current state of the industry, that's just not a healthy prognosis.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on December 18, 2009, 08:41:33 AM
It really is a very crucial time for the video game industry, and I agree that all players have made mistakes along the way, some bigger than others.  I hope they can get their **** together, because I like their products.  I want them to keep making products.  Games like 2008 Prince of Persia, Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, Portal, Bioshock, Half Life 2... I'm not getting those games from Nintendo, so I sincerely hope that the gaming industry can recover. 

However, this isn't about the mistakes that the other companies have made, this is also about mistakes that Nintendo has made.  Just because they're the only one making serious money at the moment doesn't make them exempt from mistakes, and to cite their sales figures as rationale for them as some sort of perfect, ideal business model, well I don't buy that.  Nintendo's had a lot of good fortune, but I don't think analyzing their sales success is as easy as simply saying "Well, look at blue ocean.  Obviously they succeeded because they followed blue ocean strategy.  It was pre-ordained."  I'm sure there are plenty of business strategies that are just as logically sound as blue ocean that DIDN'T pan out.  Nintendo got one right, but they've gotten them wrong too, in the past.  The industry is cyclical.  Nintendo is not impervious to this.  I have my doubts that Nintendo's current success will last into the next generation. 

This thread is about how the gaming media is not doing a good enough job of covering Nintendo, but I have no problem with the way they're covering Nintendo.  They're pointing out their frustrations with the product, and I share those frustrations.  Just because Nintendo has managed to outsell the competition does not automatically give them the better product, it merely gives them the more popular product.  IGN picking on the flaws of Wii is really no different than film critics picking on the flaws of whatever movie is the most popular of the moment. 

Sorry, I'm getting off topic here and I really have no desire to sit here and click refresh all day (which is what I think this is going to turn into) so I'm trying to stay as rational and level headed as possible.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: D_Average on December 18, 2009, 09:02:48 AM
Well said Drew.

Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 18, 2009, 11:04:57 AM
This topic is basically about reviews, I was going to make it about how it sucks as a whole, but it got too depressing. We all know that Gamespot / IGN / 1up etc. all offer completely terrible reviews, have crap staff, and just plain embarrass themselves on a daily basis in almost every "opinion" piece they put up.

Reviews are one part, opinion pieces make up the rest.  All are depressing.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Kairon on December 18, 2009, 01:56:23 PM
Nintendo got one right, but they've gotten them wrong too, in the past.  The industry is cyclical.  Nintendo is not impervious to this.  I have my doubts that Nintendo's current success will last into the next generation. 

Yeah, that's a really interesting thing about this industry though. You can go from 3rd place to 1st, and 1st to 3rd, in a signle generational transition. Nintendo's seen plenty of that in their history, and I think Iwata's even been making statements that show he's very aware of how easy it would be for them to complacently fall to that effect.

This thread is about how the gaming media is not doing a good enough job of covering Nintendo, but I have no problem with the way they're covering Nintendo.  They're pointing out their frustrations with the product, and I share those frustrations.  Just because Nintendo has managed to outsell the competition does not automatically give them the better product, it merely gives them the more popular product.  IGN picking on the flaws of Wii is really no different than film critics picking on the flaws of whatever movie is the most popular of the moment. 

I have no problem with IGN exercising their editorial prerogative. But in the realm of this topic as a whole, it seems like the gaming media as a whole seems lop-sided, without a balance of opinion. If there's a lack of objective interest in gaming journalism about how Nintendo really differs in values, execution, and audience, then I think that's definitely something that I would be concerned about. If all that gaming journalism is is a self-referential soundboard for only one niche of gaming subculture, then that's definitely something I would be concerned about.

Sorry, I'm getting off topic here and I really have no desire to sit here and click refresh all day (which is what I think this is going to turn into) so I'm trying to stay as rational and level headed as possible.

Good man.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on December 18, 2009, 02:35:05 PM
The news industry really does seem hell-bent on finding flaws with Nintendo to prognosticate doom. While that could be alright they aren't doing anything like that with the other two console makers despite their situations being significantly worse.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 18, 2009, 03:07:08 PM
Well, I like your post Drew.  It's respectful and tactful, and doesn't involve insults or failed attempts at snarky sarcasm.  Quite a rarity, even here.

I disagree, however, because the games media last generation wasn't so averse to writing about the business side.  I particularly remember IGN posting stories about that one quarter in 2003 where Nintendo posted a small loss and that was seen a huge news.  And that's where all the "Nintendo is going third party" crap came from.  They grilled Nintendo executives about release schedules and business strategies, and I thought it was odd because they didn't do this for Sony and MS.  They had reasonable cover because the GC was a bit of a failure (though it sold the same as the Xbox and actually made money), but now simply reporting the business side would read like a pro-Nintendo article.  So they don't anymore.

And while this

Quote
Just because Nintendo has managed to outsell the competition does not automatically give them the better product, it merely gives them the more popular product.

can be true, you wouldn't have known it last generation.  IGN and other such gleefully boasted the PS2's sales success in most articles, even ones about Nintendo.  The sudden lack of interest in market position from last generation to this one is pretty stark.

And I also disagree with your somewhat fatalistic attitude that "it's cyclical."  Companies don't switch positions just because it is "pre-ordained" so to speak.  For one that strips responsibility of the companies for any flaws they have making these crappy editorials even more pointless, and for two it's easily refuted by Nintendo's handheld successes, in which they've been Top Dog forever.

And KDR's right, too.  For some reaosn Nintendo's always "doomed" even when they are making record profits while the others are fine even when one has lost so much money as to undo the work of a whole decade of dominance.   It's this kind of contempt for readers' intelligences that causes such massive drop-offs in viewership.  Even the "casuals" can read and google things.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Guitar Smasher on December 18, 2009, 09:03:00 PM
And KDR's right, too.  For some reaosn Nintendo's always "doomed" even when they are making record profits while the others are fine even when one has lost so much money as to undo the work of a whole decade of dominance.   It's this kind of contempt for readers' intelligences that causes such massive drop-offs in viewership.  Even the "casuals" can read and google things.
Maybe they're aiming to become the FoxNews of the gaming world.  The journalistic bias is uncanny.  Anytime Obama/democrats do something, it's going to doom America, according to FoxNews.  Anytime Nintendo does something, it's going to doom gaming, according to IGN.

The one tolerable aspect to FoxNews is that we have the Daily Show and Colbert Report poking fun/satirizing them.  We need something similar for gaming.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 18, 2009, 09:43:55 PM
NWR needs to step-it-up and be the Daily Show to IGN's Faux News
I have no idea who is going to play the Jester in Kings Clothing though (Colbert is a hard act to mimic)
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 18, 2009, 09:54:18 PM
Both Fox and IGN are owned by News Corp...
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: mac<censored> on December 18, 2009, 09:57:01 PM
...soooooo.... NWR just needs to get themselves bought by MTV!
Brilliant!
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Peachylala on December 18, 2009, 10:08:13 PM
EVIL IDEA.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 19, 2009, 04:20:27 AM
I don't know if IGN has a FoxNews-like agenda or anything like that.  If they aren't trolling for hits to beef up their advertising rates, they could be threatening Nintendo with the bully pulpit unless they get some kind of payoff from them or something.

All I know is they aren't doing their jobs.  For instance, they have pretty high access to publishers, and I'm sure their readers would like to ask why third parties make such awful games when they are universally reviled and they don't sell, despite their "understanding of the Wii market".   But they don't, they usually just lob leading softballs and parrot whatever the publisher says.  That could be because they don't want to ruin the media relationship, but what that means we get instead is a spineless media who won't stand up to anybody, unless they aren't being advertised to, of course.  And as the economy puts the squeeze on more, they'll be even less willing to ask hard questions of the people paying them and more willing to grind down on the people who aren't.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_Lindy on December 19, 2009, 08:45:38 AM
I think part of the issue, in terms of unfavorable or unflattering coverage, is that Nintendo isn't as chummy with the press as other companies are (not just Sony  and Microsoft, but third-party publishers as well).  Nintendo is very aloof in its dealings with the press, and I'm sure there is an element of, "Nintendo doesn't scratch our back, so why should we scratch theirs?"

Nintendo doesn't always "play ball", so to speak, and I'm sure the press resents that to a certain degree.  I can tell you that, from my experience in dealing with Nintendo, their secrecy is at times baffling.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on December 19, 2009, 09:24:49 AM
Well, that'd be a reason though not an acceptable one.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 19, 2009, 09:52:07 AM
Certainly says something about the attitude of the "professional" games press, huh?  "Pay up or we'll write mean things on the internet."
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 19, 2009, 09:55:10 AM
Well, that'd be a reason though not an acceptable one.

Why not?  If Nintendo is not willing to work with the press, why should the press be willing to just roll over and sing their praises?  Public relations is a two-way street that Nintendo continually slams the "One Way Only" sign on, so we should be surprised that the press has grown rather cynical towards Nintendo over the years?

You can say whatever you like about how the press has acted in the past, but what's important now is how they're acting now.  No one disputes that Nintendo makes a lot of money with their current strategy, but it's not the press' job to hype that but report it (and report it, they still do).  It's their job to be the watchdog and keep an eye out for their readers, something I think they're doing quite capably.  It's not like Nintendo has been the only one in the media's crosshairs over the past few years: Sony was (and is) continually pestered about their decision to launch the PS3 with such a ludicrous price point, their decision to strip the PS3 of key features, and the lack of continual sales on PS3 software; Microsoft was (and is) continually pestered about the hardware failure rate of the Xbox 360 and the growing lack of 360 exclusives; and both are continually pestered as to what they need to do to recapture their former marketshare.  It isn't just Nintendo that gets criticized, and in general the criticism is good for the industry.  It keeps the discussion and flow of ideas going.  For example, do you really think we would have seen the Wii firmware update to fix the storage problem if the media hadn't hounded Nintendo about that for years (for years, Nintendo publicly ignored the problem).
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: SixthAngel on December 19, 2009, 10:17:55 AM
Well, that'd be a reason though not an acceptable one.

Why not?  If Nintendo is not willing to work with the press, why should the press be willing to just roll over and sing their praises?  Public relations is a two-way street that Nintendo continually slams the "One Way Only" sign on, so we should be surprised that the press has grown rather cynical towards Nintendo over the years?

Apparently the two way street is that developers give them money/ads and then the site gives them favorable reviews/previews.  Many websites have already been caught doing this and it is essentially an open secret that all the big(ish) sites do it.  Although popular sequels can just threaten to have them lose "access" if they start saying bad things.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 19, 2009, 10:19:07 AM
Well, that'd be a reason though not an acceptable one.

Why not?  If Nintendo is not willing to work with the press, why should the press be willing to just roll over and sing their praises?  Public relations is a two-way street that Nintendo continually slams the "One Way Only" sign on, so we should be surprised that the press has grown rather cynical towards Nintendo over the years?

Apparently the two way street is that developers give them money/ads and then the site gives them favorable reviews/previews.  Many websites have already been caught doing this and it is essentially an open secret that all the big(ish) sites do it.

That's a pretty big accusation you're making there, so I assume you have evidence to back up corruption of that nature in the major sites.  Yeah, I've seen a few news stories about various European magazines and whatnot getting bought off by Eidos, and of course there's the huge Kane & Lynch scandal a few years ago.  But those are the only major stories I can recall, and I haven't seen any stories about media corruption lately.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: SixthAngel on December 19, 2009, 10:23:08 AM
That's a pretty big accusation you're making there, so I assume you have evidence to back up corruption of that nature in the major sites.
The most obvious example is the whole Gamespot/Gerstmann thing.

If you can't see the obvious conflict of interest from having the main adverstisers of your site be the very people whose products you review you have to be blind.  It would be a miracle if there was actual integrity when you are getting paid by the people you are supposed to criticise.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 19, 2009, 10:24:28 AM
That's a pretty big accusation you're making there, so I assume you have evidence to back up corruption of that nature in the major sites.
The most obvious example is the whole Gamespot/Gerstmann thing.

Yeah, while you were posting that I was correcting my post to note Kane & Lynch-gate.  Considering I was just watching some stuff at Giant Bomb yesterday, I can't believe I forgot that.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Enner on December 19, 2009, 10:49:29 AM

If you can't see the obvious conflict of interest from having the main adverstisers of your site be the very people whose products you review you have to be blind.  It would be a miracle if there was actual integrity when you are getting paid by the people you are supposed to criticise.

Hey, one can hope, right? Maybe there are honest businessmen publishing and developing games that care about the quality of their product more than money.

No? Never again? Such a thing never existed?
Okay, time to find that corner to cry in ;_;
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 19, 2009, 11:01:07 AM
If you can't see the obvious conflict of interest from having the main adverstisers of your site be the very people whose products you review you have to be blind.  It would be a miracle if there was actual integrity when you are getting paid by the people you are supposed to criticise.

It would indeed be a conflict of interest if there weren't a deliberate separation between editorial and advertisement, especially after Kane & Lynch-gate made the issue very public.  By your argument, though, I suppose we can't take any positive review from NWR seriously, because after all they do host advertisements for games they review.   ::)

The big risk of corruption in the modern media is the threat of the "big name game" (see: Famitsu's fabulous list of "perfect" games) and the special reviewer events that come up from time to time.  But as the Tony Hawk Ride reviews have shown, even the special reviewer events aren't enough if the game truly is bad.
 
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: KDR_11k on December 19, 2009, 12:26:02 PM
Why not?  If Nintendo is not willing to work with the press, why should the press be willing to just roll over and sing their praises?  Public relations is a two-way street that Nintendo continually slams the "One Way Only" sign on, so we should be surprised that the press has grown rather cynical towards Nintendo over the years?

The press is supposed to deliver unbiased reports, not court/attack publishers. They're supposed to give us information, not try to manipulate us as part of their ballgame. If they act like they are superior to us by trying to use us they're going to lose us because there's an unlimited supply of writers who don't do that. Newspapers got disrupted by the internet because their content stopped caring about the reader, now gaming websites are being disrupted by blogs and review aggregators (which may link to their reviews but let people pick the juicy bits without being regular readers of the site) because they wrote their content to fight their battle rather than to serve the reader.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 19, 2009, 12:37:43 PM
Why not?  If Nintendo is not willing to work with the press, why should the press be willing to just roll over and sing their praises?  Public relations is a two-way street that Nintendo continually slams the "One Way Only" sign on, so we should be surprised that the press has grown rather cynical towards Nintendo over the years?

The press is supposed to deliver unbiased reports, not court/attack publishers. They're supposed to give us information, not try to manipulate us as part of their ballgame.

Alright, this is where the ignorance steps in: the difference between the news and editorial.  The job of a journalist when telling the news is to "deliver unbiased reports, not court/attack publishers."  When delivering an editorial, they can say whatever they want so long as it is actually their own opinion.  Despite whatever you want to believe, all those podcasts; reviews; and articles you all have been complaining about are editorials and as such these people can say whatever they want.  Whether you choose to follow their opinions is up to you.  The press aren't reporting untrue news about Nintendo: it has continually sold well over the past few years, and the press have reported these facts consistently.  If they were doing otherwise and allowing editorial to influence their news reporting, then they wouldn't be doing their jobs.  But if these people have serious problems with Nintendo, it is perfectly professional to write an article stating their grievances. 

Of course, whether the writing within those editorials is professional (as in "well written" and accurate when citing facts) is a completely different story.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: Deguello on December 19, 2009, 05:47:56 PM
Quote
When delivering an editorial, they can say whatever they want so long as it is actually their own opinion.

Well that's the issue.  Is it their opinion or are they fishing for kickbacks?

Quote
The press aren't reporting untrue news about Nintendo: it has continually sold well over the past few years, and the press have reported these facts consistently.  If they were doing otherwise and allowing editorial to influence their news reporting, then they wouldn't be doing their jobs.

Actually they have let their editorial biases conflict their reporting before.  Back when it was in vogue to slam the DS for being a "Virtual Boy," they had some pretty slanted reporting of the Japanese launch of both the DS and PSP.  They chose some out of the way camera store with three guys standing outside as the "DS launch" and a goodly sized queue from mainstreet Tokyo for the "PSP Launch."  However, the numbers clearly showed the DS clocked the PSP and there were pictures of gigantic lines for the DS that dwarfed the PSP Line.  It was pretty embarrassing when they got caught doing that, and they haven't really explained why they did it.  But even without evidence, who would trust their news-reporting if the people that were their editors or managers are fishing for money with editorial "hit pieces?"

It's not ignorant to think IGN is trying to use the strength of their readership as fuel for their bully pulpit.  It makes you a critical consumer of media.
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on December 19, 2009, 06:04:20 PM
Well that's the issue.  Is it their opinion or are they fishing for kickbacks?

As far as I'm concerned, that's a pretty cynical outlook, and one that I don't share.  I don't automatically assume that every media outlet puts hits/views/ratings above truth.  I know that it's a popular notion, but I don't buy in.  Not saying I believe everything I read, but when it comes to opinion pieces, especially from places that have been under the radar as long as IGN, I simply don't believe that they intentionally write opinion pieces to push some anti-Nintendo agenda. 
Title: Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
Post by: broodwars on December 19, 2009, 06:21:45 PM