Post by: odifiend on January 11, 2004, 02:08:26 PM
Darker themed Zeldas were so awesome, so,I think, a spinoff game(s) should be made with those themes in mind. There is little chance that Nintendo would let Link draw blood or walk through skull covered caverns. But guess who could get the ok? That's right our favorite Gerudo, Gannondorf. This is one awesome character completely untapped by Nintendo. He is entirely badass in his leather, armor and cape. Other than @ SW 2k, he has never used his wicked sword (had it in SSBM but never used). The guy is a mage, he could bring all sorts of new magic to the Zelda series (I like Link's sword spin but it has been done to death). He could acquire all these items of power (cape, rings, triforce, maybe justify those earrings to us
), build and break alliances. So many possibilities...
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 11, 2004, 02:50:29 PM
And come on, Wind Waker wasn't taken in its graphical direction for the reason you listed...Ninty just decided that taking the series in a more realistic direction wasn't the way to go...And how can you say that Wind Waker wasn't "dark"? I thought the ambience was much better than OoT's...
Post by: mouse_clicker on January 11, 2004, 02:52:22 PM
Ganondorf is defeated by having the Master Sword embedded in his skull for crying out loud- don't let the cel-shading trick you into believing Wind Waker was all cutesy and light hearted.
Post by: Polemistis on January 11, 2004, 05:12:02 PM
Post by: Polemistis on January 11, 2004, 05:19:41 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 11, 2004, 05:29:58 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Polemistis
But back on topic, yes I agree that they should make Zelda darker and more mature then WW. No more cel-shaded Zelda after the next one, it just dosen't fit.
Let's give a big "WTF!?" to that in bold...
Post by: Gibdo Master on January 11, 2004, 05:43:05 PM
Quite frankly you don't get the Zelda series if you feel cel-shading doesn't fit the series. Go play your "mature", violent, bloody games with big polygonal breasts and leave the Zelda series alone.
Post by: odifiend on January 11, 2004, 06:02:41 PM
Post by: odifiend on January 11, 2004, 06:07:50 PM
Post by: thepoga on January 11, 2004, 06:13:52 PM
Post by: Jale on January 12, 2004, 08:13:50 AM
What I dont want is Zelda gettin redder. Blood. Gore. Yawn pass the salt.
OoT is probably one of the darkest games I have played. Dark = Sinister not Violent
Post by: odifiend on January 12, 2004, 09:15:13 AM
Post by: Polemistis on January 12, 2004, 09:39:14 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: BillQuote
Originally posted by: Polemistis
But back on topic, yes I agree that they should make Zelda darker and more mature then WW. No more cel-shaded Zelda after the next one, it just dosen't fit.
Let's give a big "WTF!?" to that in bold...
Making Zelda cel shaded makes it look even more of a kiddie game. Don't you feel the difference that the graphics make? Compare OoT + MM to WW. OoT + MM gives it a teen looking game, WW brings it down a few ages because of its cel shading. Sure they have those a dark dungeon and those undead guys, but still it just dosen't feel the same.
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 12, 2004, 09:39:27 AM
Post by: Guitar Smasher on January 12, 2004, 10:13:53 AM
As for the Cel-Shading, if they want to bring Adult Link back into series, then they won't be able to do cel shading. The two just don't mix. Try imagining cel shaded adult link. It wouldn't work.
Post by: odifiend on January 12, 2004, 10:24:45 AM
Zelda is an art form; it is always praised for its graphics and style. It is the original Role Playing Game so it tends to be realistic in setting and story (if you ignore the fairies). The realism of OoT and MM's setting mentally had me thinking that it was the middle ages. That there should have been scenes of war and violence, which was not completely unthought of by Nintendo because after Gannondorf raided Zelda's castle, there was a dead soldier whose last duty was to beg Link to carry out Zelda's plan. Raids aren't happy and smiling and bloodless, the fact that there was no battle, that all the town folk just kept living their lives the same way was kind of ridiculous. In the medival setting that Miyamoto created so beautifully, people should have fled and people should have died. The middle ages were a terrible time and gore was unavoidable. On the GameCube, I think Miyamoto would have felt obligated to put gore in his game if he kept the style similar to that of OoT. Hence the switch IMO. (Of course there were probably other or even more important reasons but I think that was a factor)
My spinoff idea is a way to keep with the universal success of the Zelda series (and also my selfish desire to see Gannondorf, the most badass character Nintendo has, in his own game
). And don't say Zelda and spinoff should not be in the same sentence because that's what 4 swords and Tetra's Trackers are.universal success defined as not just diehard Zelda fans and people who wanted a free copy of OoT and MQ.
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 12, 2004, 10:45:50 AM
And the gore factor is just an off-shoot of realism...Ninty realized that they didn't want to take the series in that direction(though I fear it may have to curve towards that direction eventually), so they went a path that lead to a much more ambient game...
After going back to OoT over the weekend, I realized how "dead" OoT feels...There's no sense of ambience at all compared to Wind Waker, where you notice little things like the grass blowing and emotions on characters' faces...Things that just aren't possible in a "realistic" game right now because consoles just aren't powerful enough...
Post by: Berny on January 12, 2004, 11:35:27 AM
And maybe Zelda should look like this.
Come ON people. Zelda was NEVER as dark as you want it. It has its dark moments but it will never be like GTA (thank God). Mouseclicker mentioned one of them in WW and that isn't the only one. I frankly don't want a Zelda standing over a pool of Ganon's blood and feasting on his dead corpse. I like the series as it is and in the direction it appears to be going. Ugh, I am so sick of...some people.
EDIT: Hopefully fixed the link.
Post by: Ocarina_Jedi on January 12, 2004, 12:00:08 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 12, 2004, 01:04:10 PM
Post by: Polemistis on January 12, 2004, 01:12:34 PM
Post by: Jale on January 13, 2004, 08:03:03 AM
Post by: BiteMy~uK on January 13, 2004, 09:51:19 AM
He said that he decided this because this link is not related to any other link at all. "each new zelda game has an entirely different link" (I believe I quoted correctly) and that's with the exception of majoras mask. He wanted a new link, with a new look.
If you notice the kid you play in WW "is not link". You give him whatever name you choose, and nothing ever says he is link, just a decendant of the great one from OoT. He may look (sorta) like the classic link but that doesn't mean it is who he is, does it?
And on the darker subject:
I would be happy if they took a more realistic graphic look (not blood and gore). And one with more of a "sinistar" plot as some of you put it (very well I might add), But if the next one is a new for of cel shading without the shading I will play it. I'm a fan of the series and even if there were some things I diss-like about WW (the shading, how short and easy it was...) It was an over all good game. My vision of the next zelda game when I got my cube was OoT with mind blowing gfx, Though I got WW I'm still happy I got my zelda game, Now... I say, Bring on the next one With a side of Zora!
Post by: The Omen on January 13, 2004, 10:18:32 AM
Post by: BiteMy~uK on January 13, 2004, 10:49:55 AM
Post by: odifiend on January 13, 2004, 11:11:31 AM
Guys, The Omen got what I was saying- make a Gannondorf game that elaborates or expands on the series, it wouldn't have to be a souless game, in fact since Gannondorf is pretty much an untapped resource, he could give Link a run for his money while bringing a new audience to a great series, if the game was made to star Gannondorf, the first male ruler of the Gerudo in a hundred years, lord of terror, kaiser of doom, fuhror of darkness, etc...
(Read: Just don't take away his badass-ness)
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 13, 2004, 11:12:38 AM
Post by: Guitar Smasher on January 13, 2004, 11:14:59 AM
Post by: odifiend on January 13, 2004, 11:21:38 AM
Ahh! that was pun-ilicious!
Post by: Koopa Troopa on January 13, 2004, 11:37:38 AM
Quote
As for the Cel-Shading, if they want to bring Adult Link back into series, then they won't be able to do cel shading. The two just don't mix. Try imagining cel shaded adult link. It wouldn't work.
I disagree, I'd love to see Adult Link cel-shaded. Although, I admit if they went with that "stubby-legged" look from Wind Waker it might not work as well... but at the same time I'd have faith that they would somehow pull it off.
Post by: odifiend on January 13, 2004, 12:53:30 PM
Cel shading resembles anime as many have been quick to point out. There is no reason why cel shaded can't be incredibly cool, just look at how Tales of Symphonia is coming along *supresses a torrent of drool*. Most anime characters meant to look awesome, look pretty awesome. Alucard (Hellsing... even wearing that ribbon!), Edward Elric (Full Metal Alchemist), Chrno transformed or not (Chrno Crusade), the entire cast of Wolf's Rain, Vache, Frieza, Cell and mini & super buu (for those not using BitTorrent).
The "kiddie" look that was WW was Nintendo's fault but no bad blood; Cel shading was pretty much their idea (and took off after WW was shown). It's gotta be tough to be a role model. *belches and scratches self*
Post by: Jale on January 15, 2004, 08:38:28 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill
Well, imo, leaving Windfall Island to head back to Outset to receive the third jewel was much more intense than anything I experienced in OoT...
Yeh I lurved that sequence! That was so brilliant and I think that is the darkest part of WW. I think the next game should be on GC and in the cel-shaded style, a continuation of the Waker of the Wind's tale. However on N5 it would be nice to see a game in the Spaceworld 2001 (i think...) graphics.
Post by: Berny on January 17, 2004, 08:14:54 AM
Link looked like Zelda in a green tunic. He isn't supposed to look like a woman.
Post by: odifiend on January 17, 2004, 09:03:23 AM
Post by: Gibdo Master on January 17, 2004, 09:11:55 AM
Also as far as adult Link not working with cel-shading that is actually something that Aunoma agrees with. Anyway I have really come to prefer the cel-shaded graphics over OoT's and MM's. I have been playing MM on the bonus disk and I really think that cel-shading would have worked great in it. Also I prefer young Link. Despite what some people try and say Link in The Legend of Zelda was supposed to be a 10 year old kid. I was like 5 or 6 the first time I played the game so I thought it was really cool that they had a little kid running around slaying demons and dragons and exploring dark dungeons for treasure.
Personally I thought WW was fairly dark. It wasn't as dark as MM but then MM was pretty damn dark for a Zelda game. As I've played through MM a second time on the bonus disk I can't believe how many times death is mentioned in the game. They don't try to kid friendly it up either. Anyway WW is dark because of Hyrule being flooded and then destroyed at the end as well as the king basically committing suicide. I think that WW was a lighter game because MM was so dark. Nintendo probably just wanted to balance things out. I'm sure with Aunoma at the helm will see another dark Zelda like MM.
Post by: Jale on January 17, 2004, 11:06:49 PM
I dont want Zelda getting too dark like LotR dark with the world getting enslaved. Even MM had its jovial bits and in OoT most of the time you spent as a kid was quite cheery. I like Zelda games which are Dark with jovial bits added. IMO WW was jovial with Dark bits added. Still the best game on Gamecube, but only about 3rd in the Zelda series.
Post by: odifiend on January 18, 2004, 02:01:49 AM
I think though that a darker surrounding makes a better hero, not necessarily gore, but the feeling of impending doom someone talked of earlier. Humor is good in the beginning and at certain points in the story but Zeldas generally have a gravely serious plot. At the same time, the cel shaded style and the color that goes along with it undermines that serious plot in WW. I wish Nintendo would shift the animation style at certain points in the game. Is there any game that does that? If not, that actually might be a Nintendo thing to do.
Post by: Jale on January 18, 2004, 03:06:46 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: odifiend
the feeling of impending doom someone talked of earlier.
Yeh I remember...It was me and a few other people.
Quote
Originally posted by: odifiend
At the same time, the cel shaded style and the color that goes along with it undermines that serious plot in WW.
The cel-shading could be used very well in a sinister game (XIII and Killer 7 for example) but the fact is WW doesn't have a sinister plot. Nobody is scared of dying except for the KoRL and Link.
Quote
Originally posted by: odifiend
I wish Nintendo would shift the animation style at certain points in the game. Is there any game that does that? If not, that actually might be a Nintendo thing to do.
I dont think that would work. I cant imagine a character suddenly going all OoT-like halfway through the game. It would be too inconsistent.
Post by: odifiend on January 18, 2004, 04:40:58 AM
.
Post by: Jale on January 18, 2004, 09:35:18 AM
Post by: odifiend on January 18, 2004, 03:26:01 PM
Post by: Jale on January 19, 2004, 07:29:36 AM
Post by: Berny on January 20, 2004, 03:39:37 PM
Post by: Switchblade Cross on January 26, 2004, 12:37:38 PM
COme on man, you cant deny that if Link to the Past, Link's Awakening, or any other of the older 2D games were to be faithfully, and exactly recreated in 3D, that Cel-Shading to would be the path to go. I don't think there is anybody here that went in to a wooded area in WW and INSTANTLY though "Lost Woods, LttP"
Cel-Shading IS Zelda! Get over it...
Post by: odifiend on January 26, 2004, 01:20:46 PM
Cel-Shading is obviously not the definition of Zelda because the most publically reknown one in the series is OoT. Also to say that one art form is a Nintendo series is ludicrous. If you said "Mario is 2D," you'd be laughed out of any forum. In certain forums, if you said the same of Metroid, the same thing would happen. You might be saying that celshading isn't 2D but since everyone who claims that photorealsim is a bad direction for Zelda points to the dated graphics of OoT, so I will point to similar in style 2D graphics for celshading. No one really knows what a photo realistic Zelda game on GCN would look like, so know one is absolutely sure that the shift was right (Other than Miyamoto and his crew
).My original post had to do with creating a side-story (since that is the new Zelda fad) starring Ganondorf because it could address some of the reasons I thought the art of Zelda was changed from OoT and sate my desire to see Ganondorf in his own game- he is an untapped resource. He has never even used his sword outside of the spaceworld demo and SSBM victory. If you read the entire thread you'd have learned that I'm not adverse to celshading but like Jale I found WW too happy and light.
If you weren't addressing me, sorry for anything interpreted as hostility.
Post by: Jale on January 27, 2004, 08:02:54 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: odifiend
like Jale I found WW too happy and light.
I don't have many problems with WW. I think it was one of the most enjoyable games in the Zelda series, partly because it was pretty easy and therefore very playable. It was a bit cheery but I'm not going to hold that against it, after all it is only the first story of this new Link.
Post by: odifiend on January 27, 2004, 02:04:45 PM
Post by: Oldskool on January 28, 2004, 05:44:03 AM
Post by: Jale on January 28, 2004, 08:24:56 AM
Post by: odifiend on February 28, 2004, 08:22:56 PM
) could do. There is no need for summoning circles or anything, but if his Zelda incarnation has a collecta-thon portion, each piece acquired could go to unlocking a technique.Here are some of my ideas:
Link shoves his sword into the ground sending a shockwave that could stun or defeat enemies.
- Link could also use a variation of this move: while targeting an enemy push sword into ground and it would 'teleport' and hit the enemy from underneath.
Link could shoot one arrow that splits into several that rain from the air.
Variation: With even more magic, can add fire or ice spread.
If Nintendo brings back an animal to ride on: a magical charge to charge through enemies.
Nintendo's idea that they should bring back: Long distance slash- I don't care if I have to wait until the last boss again but it needs to be in the next game.
Post by: Jale on February 29, 2004, 04:10:56 AM
Post by: odifiend on February 29, 2004, 04:16:07 AM
Hey Gannondorf has no known weapons so his magic could be his items.
(Refuses to drop Gannondorf idea and prepares to take it to the grave)
Post by: Polemistis on February 29, 2004, 09:01:42 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: odifiend
Here are some of my ideas:
Link shoves his sword into the ground sending a shockwave that could stun or defeat enemies.
- Link could also use a variation of this move: while targeting an enemy push sword into ground and it would 'teleport' and hit the enemy from underneath.
Link could shoot one arrow that splits into several that rain from the air.
Variation: With even more magic, can add fire or ice spread.
If Nintendo brings back an animal to ride on: a magical charge to charge through enemies.
Nintendo's idea that they should bring back: Long distance slash- I don't care if I have to wait until the last boss again but it needs to be in the next game.
Hmm...I dunno man, it seems like it would make more of an RPG if you ask me.
Post by: Draygaia on February 29, 2004, 09:07:39 AM
Post by: Jale on February 29, 2004, 10:24:45 AM
Post by: odifiend on February 29, 2004, 12:02:03 PM
Quote
Hmm...I dunno man, it seems like it would make more of an RPG if you ask me.
Yeah, my ideas could be converted to an RPG easily. But the way I'm picturing them is in a way you could use them with the current battle system.
Link shoving his sword in the ground is reminescient of Din's Fire from OoT, so that could work no problem. The variation when he stabs his sword in the ground, could be like taking pot-shots at an enemy from a long distance or even better linked into a combo. I loved the speed and battle system in WW, and I picture Link jabbing his sword at the ground, the enemy getting hit and popping into the air and Link following up with a horizontal or vertical slash, or even another ground jab. All in like 3 seconds. That is pretty true to Zelda.
The arrows idea is upon further inspection much more RPGesque, but I still think it could work and would be cool. My only issue with the idea is that there are not enough enemies just running around to use it on and it would probably be too easy to kill enemies. But that could be answered by having hordes of enemies everywhere and making sure that it each move takes a huge chunk of your magic bar.
The magic charge on a beast I stand-by (just like carrots but you do damage.
) And Nintendo has been using the long distance slash (when your health is full forever) and they even resurrected the idea in MM.I was never arguing whether Ganon was evil or not but the comment about him being a tolken bad guy is what I was saying earlier. Ganon, pre-WW, was just the villain with almost no personality. A game about him could expand his story and let us see behind his madness.
Post by: Don'tHate742 on March 01, 2004, 03:20:47 PM
Post by: odifiend on March 01, 2004, 03:35:08 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 01, 2004, 03:37:33 PM
Post by: odifiend on March 01, 2004, 03:53:45 PM
Still parrying looked phat as hell. Hours with Orca just parrying in WW. Orca was why I have no regrets about shelling out 50 USD for WW.
Post by: Don'tHate742 on March 01, 2004, 05:02:17 PM
Also wasn't it more fun to fight those gypsie gaurds when ever you tried to save a prisoner?
I geuss my gripe is that WW was too easy to begin with....
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 01, 2004, 05:19:02 PM
LOL, those are Stalfos...
And I've already been over the "easy" argument way too many times...Play through without getting heart containers...It's not quite so easy then...
Post by: DrZoidberg on March 02, 2004, 05:44:29 AM
bill. still pretty easy. bill.
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 02, 2004, 06:10:18 AM
Post by: Ms.Pikmin on March 02, 2004, 06:34:55 AM
*backs out of thread before licorice ice cream is mentioned*
Post by: Jale on March 02, 2004, 08:08:08 AM
Post by: Don'tHate742 on March 02, 2004, 10:40:56 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 02, 2004, 11:04:20 AM
(Oh, and no use of fairies and/or healing items...
)
Post by: Don'tHate742 on March 02, 2004, 04:34:09 PM
Post by: Draygaia on March 02, 2004, 07:10:23 PM
