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Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: stmarco on January 04, 2004, 04:07:19 AM

Title: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: stmarco on January 04, 2004, 04:07:19 AM
When some people are asking for mature games, they are not always talking about violent games (or 18+ games)... maybe we should use adult games (or older teens) instead of mature... we got hyper violent games on gamecube with RE but it doesnt work.... but we dont have Gran Turismo or Project Gotham 2 or any good racing simulation (not arcade)... yes, F-Zero is a good game but i don't like the concept.... i bought the Playstation 1 for DRIVING GAMES and SPORTS GAMES when i was younger (whichs adult now normally like and are buying Xbox and PS2)... i bought gamcube at lauch over the other two because of the price and i was thinking that Nintendo wont do the same errors.. but i was wrong.... im still happy with it because i have some good games like Sega NHL2003, FIFA (sega sports left gamecube), SSX3  and not alot of time to play.... yes, Zelda and Metroid Prime are good games but, like a lot of people, they are worth a rent or two for me.... Racing games and Sports games can be played for 50hours+ if you like the game....  anyway, i think this is where a lot of people are mislead when talking about Mature Games.... and the majority of my friends of family member (im 24), bought a xbox or ps2 to play racing games.... the other day, my uncle said to my little cousin (6years) that xbox was for adult and gamecube for children after i game a Rally (xbox) game to my dad... he was aking why he had a gamecube and not a xbox.... im a true gamer and i want to types of game... when i was young, i played Driving games on the computer, flight simulation (combat),hockey games... i didnt even bought a 1party title for my super nes.... and i wont buy a nintendo console next time....
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: KDR_11k on January 04, 2004, 04:46:20 AM
Sega left because their sport games didn't sell. EA was about to leave. Apparently few bought the GC for playing sports games, which also explains the lack of these titles. I certainly don't add to the sports sales, I hate sports games since my time with the C64 (which I got at the age of 7, IIRC). I think you'll find a lot of people with a similar mindset here, we seem to make up the majority of Cube buyers.

Most people mean mature as in "rated mature". That's the sad truth. They don't want games that appeal to mature people, but they want violent games that make them seem mature. If that sounds unbelievably stupid, well it is, but so is mankind. I have no faith in a civilization that worships "stars" created by casting shows.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: The Omen on January 04, 2004, 04:56:35 AM
The problem with the 'mature' tag is people who mention it the most do mean violence.  Usually being someone under 15 just trying to be cool.  As for sports games, i have enough on GC not to care.  I really dont care for racing sims, but if i really needed one, i could always get it for my PC.  I mean, obviously you have a PC, so whats the problem?
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: stmarco on January 04, 2004, 06:46:09 AM
My PC is a Celeron400... So it is now useless... I know that a lot of cube owners dont like racing sim and even sports game and don't care for the lack of those titles.... but dont ask yourself why the cube is consider kiddie... not that mario is kiddy because i think it's fun... but nintendo offer a certain type of product to a certain type of consumer... and those who dont like it have to buy another console... this is the big problem.....  On the ps2 and Xbox, you have sports, you have kiddie, you have fun adventure, you have driving, violence, etc etc  so everybody is happy...  yes if you have a good computer, you can play a lot of those games and buy the cube for nintendo AAA games.... but if you dont have that good computer.... ? And since the cube owner just buy the nintendo titles, 3rd party went away.... and a lot of people too... cube is a good system and i like it.... but man, i wish that i have a xbox instead sometimes... just to play Rainbow Six, RallySports Challenge, Project Gotham 2 or GTA.....
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: SearanoX on January 04, 2004, 06:55:16 AM
You're in luck.  Rainbow Six 3 is coming to the 'Cube later this year.  

I'm not really into sports games.  They're okay, I guess, but I certainly would have something else over one.  Many 'Cube owners feel the same about this.  They buy a 'Cube to play Mario, Zelda, and Metroid, not NHL, FIFA, and NASCAR.  That would account for the low sport game sales on Nintendo's console.  They've never really sold all that well since the N64, anyway.

As for the whole "Mature" image, well...Nintendo doesn't have as many M-rated games as the others, but they also know that blood does not make a game.  I find a game like Mario to be more mature than a game like Devil May Cry.  Why?  Because it takes a mature person to realize that blood doesn't make a game, and that gameplay does.  It also takes a mature person to get past the whole "kiddy" image that Nintendo has been branded with (but is slowly losing).  
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: The Omen on January 04, 2004, 07:16:56 AM
Quote

My PC is a Celeron400... So it is now useless


Yeah, i guess youre right about that.

You could go the PS2 route.  Pick up a used PS2 for $40 .

Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Cap on January 04, 2004, 07:47:56 AM
this is kind of interesting, becouse i've always thought the "mature" rating should be called something else. the problem with the rating is that if the games with the rating are "mature", ignorant and stupid people assume that all other games must be "immature". I think something like the restricted rating for movies would have been a better choice.

of course the "mature" rating has nothing to do with sports or racing titles. most that i've seen are always rated "e" or "t".  i dont know what can be done about those types of games for the gamecube. I dont play or buy them like i imagine a lot of people here dont. maybe nintendo should make some of their own?  
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: DrZoidberg on January 04, 2004, 08:12:46 AM
the ESRB (or what ever it's called) should do away with it's current system and in it's place implement a different rating system, that actually tells you a brief summery of the game content, so like if it's a racing game it gets an 'R' sports 'S' violent 'V' action 'A' etc, and any combination, so like 'V/A' violent action game, like Resident Evil or what ever.

oh and I think nintendo was trying to get more sports games on the cube, what with the whole deal with EA and all
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: SearanoX on January 04, 2004, 08:35:49 AM
They have a label on the back of the box that gives a content description, Zoidberg.  It gives a description of things...though sometimes they mess it up, like seen in Halo PC.  It's rated 'M' for Blood and Gore (redundant) and Violence, but it also has "Foul Language".
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: thecubedcanuck on January 04, 2004, 08:52:56 AM
"Many 'Cube owners feel the same about this. They buy a 'Cube to play Mario, Zelda, and Metroid, not NHL, FIFA, and NASCAR."

Why cant we have the best of both, and thus appeal to everyone. NIN will never touch Sony untill they can do this.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: stmarco on January 04, 2004, 09:05:15 AM
thecubedcanuck understand perfectly what i said....

it is ok not too like sports game and racing game but if nintendo doesnt offer this popular genre to alot of mature gamers (im not talking about the rating), then a majority will look elsewhere....  the recent boost in cube sale in due to the price cut so the parents can buy this toy for their children for xmas....  but the cube just need one absolute game to please alot of adult gamers... Gran Turismo sold PS1 and sold PS2 at the beginning before GTA.... Cars lovers dreamed to play this game when they saw the add.... but no game for the cube was impressime for the mass... Metroid Prime is impressive when you play with it but it doesnt make people by a cube... why ? yes, they could buy a cube to play Metroid Prime and Zelda but if they want a driving game (simulation) nothing... or they could buy a xbox with Halo and Projet Gotham 2 and have a bit of both genre... or a PS2 with Gran Turismo and GTA... Nintendo has to offer a full spectrum of games (by the mean of 3rd party) to plz everyone.... if not, they continue to make money but for how long... i dont want nintendo to go the route of sega... maybe the next nintendo console wont sell...
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: CaseyRyback on January 04, 2004, 09:08:19 AM
Maybe we could get a port of SEGA GT online from WOW. From what I played 2002 is amazing and a really fun racing game.

I agree through, I would like a good racing game for the Gamecube and not a NFS game but something like GT.  
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: CaseyRyback on January 04, 2004, 09:19:32 AM
Rainbow SIx 3 is not any fun without online multiplayer

Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: SearanoX on January 04, 2004, 09:47:44 AM
There's a good chance Ubi will include online multiplayer, seeing as how they're going to in Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow.
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 04, 2004, 10:27:07 AM
We can't have the "best of both" because Nintendo is not the market leader and there's too many people 'like me' who WILL NOT buy "both."  The only "sports" titles I've ever bought were the unconventional kinds from Sega & Nintendo like Beach Spikers and Mario Tennis.

If "Rainbow Six 3 is not any fun without online multiplayer" then Ubi Soft must be doing something wrong with the franchise cuz I had loads of fun planning team strategies in single-player in the original Rainbow Six and Rogue Spear series.  The fact some planning features got butchered from Raven Shield despite the nice "unreal super duper engine" graphics upgrade upset me.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: mouse_clicker on January 04, 2004, 10:40:41 AM
Quote

Why cant we have the best of both, and thus appeal to everyone. NIN will never touch Sony untill they can do this.


It's not as easy as Nintendo just going out and "getting" these games- the simple fact of the matter is almost all Nintendo fans don't like sports games, and since one rarely buys a Gamecube unless they're a Nintendo fan, sports gamesjust won't sell well on the Gamecube. I'm sure Nintendo would love to have big name sports games on the Gamecube, but Nintendo isn't the one that decides that, and until sufficient support is shown for those games, publishers won't make Gamecube versions. Basically, as long as the PS2 is around all of their games sell so well on it, publishers will continue to ignore the Gamecube because.  

Professional 666 pretty said exactly what I'm trying to.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: The Omen on January 04, 2004, 10:53:47 AM
I see no problem with the GC having EA sports only.  That more than fulfills my needs.  I do understand that having alternative choices is appealing to the casual gamer, in fact i've stated that exact sentence over 100 times on these very forums.  However, i don't give a F if the casual gamer buys the GC.  If Nin is doing solid financially, i have no worries.  Bottom line-in a perfect setting it would behoove Nintendo to have every single game released.  But seeing as theres much more that goes into acquiring these games, such as bias, market share and market forecasts,  i feel they're fine now, and moving towards excellent.  Nintendo did keep EA sports from bolting, so i assume they may do the same thing next generation with more 3rd parties.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Polemistis on January 04, 2004, 11:45:48 AM
Quote

Originally posted by: stmarco
........cube is a good system and i like it.... but man, i wish that i have a xbox instead sometimes... just to play Rainbow Six, RallySports Challenge, Project Gotham 2 or GTA.....


To replace GTA, get True Crime: Streets of LA, its a sweet game.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Pikkcuber on January 04, 2004, 03:20:20 PM
Correct me if im wrong but dont we already have an Adult rating.  Though i think its rarely given out. Why does it matter what its called anyway?
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Ncubeboy45 on January 04, 2004, 03:39:41 PM
yah, also the sports games arnt as good on the cube. the controles are all chopped up, i have a much more fun time playin Madden on my PS2 than my Gamecube. I also agree, mature does not mean alot of blood!  
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: WesDawg on January 04, 2004, 05:40:27 PM
Just curious, this guy seemed to like racing games. I don't play 'em to much. How does the racing genre stand up on the Cube? I know we've got NFS and that Auto Modelista thing from Sega, but is there anything even close to GT for us? That seems like a market that would sell well on the Cube, especially if it was done well. I know there are a ton of racing games for it. You may just have to rent around to find one you like. I doubt that theres nothing.

As for sports... well there's plenty of Sports games on the Cube. It seems like all the top rated ones are still available. I don't play 'em either though, so I don't really know. The rumer that they sell bad is a bit of misnomer I think. I remember looking at Midway's financial report right after they pulled support and while GCs sales were the lowest that particular year, they'd been heads and tales about XBox the previous year. I think Cube owners just aren't fond of rebuying the same game every year as much as other consoles owners are.

As for your uncle, tell him that he's wrong. Nintendo's was making the greatest games and the greatest consoles long before Microsoft entered the scene, and its a awesome console for someone who loves games. Your whole section there is a little incoherent, but if he said its for kids its cause he's either uniformed or dimwitted. It's mostly media hype, and he's apparently bought into it. There are plenty of older people who own Cubes. Probably more than their are kids, given the lack of Pokemon games for it. Nintendo has a huge fanbase that was raised up with the NES and SNES. They buy Nintendo consoles to play Mario and Zelda and FZero and StarFox etc. If he wants to insult all of them and call 'em kiddy... well that just pisses me off.
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: DrZoidberg on January 04, 2004, 07:00:23 PM
Quote

and that Auto Modelista thing from Sega


capcom actually, we also have burnout 1 and 2, but nothing really 'realistic'
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: nionlights on January 04, 2004, 11:10:12 PM
The current rating system is ridiculous-what is the point of a rating system which the majority of parents do not understand?  There is/was absolutely no reason why the "ESRB" couldn't just adopt the MPAA rating system (G, PG, PG-13, etc); no fuss, no crazy ratings that aren't ever used, just plain, simple movie-style ratings.  Oh, and here's my (only) problem with Nintendo, or, rather, the state of video games today-10 years ago, or whenever it was, when i fell in love with the Super Nintendo, there was no question that it had ALL the games.  You want sports games?  SNES had plenty.  You want "x" type of game from "x" developer?  SNES had them all.  Nowadays, I have to hold my breath, cross my fingers in the hopes that a good 3rd-party game that I've just heard about will get to the Cube.  It's not a pleasant feeling...
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Mario on January 05, 2004, 01:57:55 AM
Its funny how lots of kids and teenagers call the games they play "adult" games. Actually that's not funny, its sad.
Quote

How does the racing genre stand up on the Cube?

Well, as far as racers go, the GCN has a great selection. Wave Race: Blue Storm, F-Zero GX, Kirby Air Ride, Mario Kart: Double Dash!!, Burnout, Burnout 2, R Racing, Need for Speed, and more that im probably forgetting. But if its realistic racers that look "fully mad bro" that you're after, then look elsewhere. Personally, i prefer Wave Race, F-Zero and Mario Kart to Gran Turismo and Project Gotham Racing, oh well. Also, in my opinion, when Mario Tennis hits the cube, GameCube will have the best sports lineup ever.
Quote

im a true gamer
...
i didnt even bought a 1party title for my super nes

...
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Ian Sane on January 05, 2004, 07:10:34 AM
"the simple fact of the matter is almost all Nintendo fans don't like sports games, and since one rarely buys a Gamecube unless they're a Nintendo fan, sports gamesjust won't sell well on the Gamecube."

The reason Nintendo fans don't play sports games is because Nintendo has never "trained" their fans to like that sort of game or really any sort of simulation style game.  A way to fix this is for Nintendo themselves to make their own sports line.  I think a fair amount of us who aren't normally interested in sports titles would at least rent a sports game if Nintendo was behind it and it got good reviews.  I would certainly try out a Nintendo hockey title.

Of course then the question of why Nintendo should try to encourage the sales of a type of game they wouldn't normally make comes up.  If Nintendo fans aren't buying sports games and Nintendo doesn't make sports games why should they care?  Well they should care because sports games are very popular and in order to be taken seriously in today's market you need a strong sports lineup.  Sony has one and MS is working on one (they have NFL Fever for example).  A strong exclusive sports lineup will show that Nintendo is a serious force in the industry.  Plus by encouraging the sales of sports games they'll have an easier time convincing EA and Sega to support their console which results in better third party support which results in better console sales which results in better game sales.

The big problem with the N64 was that it didn't have enough variety or had all the genres well covered.  While an improvement the Gamecube still has that problem and creating a strong sports line would help Nintendo fill in the cracks in their library.  They should also make more mature titles and RPGs for the same reason and ADVERTISE them instead of releasing them out there without any promotion and then acting all shocked when they sell like crap.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Kyosho on January 05, 2004, 09:12:51 AM
nionlights, i totally agree about your SNES comment.  It wasn't until the N64 that things started to change alot.  Much of this probably won't happen till they get more 3rd party developers.  Excellent 1st party software and mediocre 3rd party software does not make a totally enjoyable system.  Fortunately, I have seen quite a few ads lately on TV (but mostly for 1st/2nd party titles grr)

As for mature games, it'd be nice if they have a few more exclusives.  Having these multiplatformed Splinter Cell style games irks me a bit because i have a powerful PC and I can always get it for my PC.  The last mature game I bought was RE:0, and I wasn't too pleased with it.  I was hoping for a Devil May Cry type of game from Capcom, but none to be found cept for PN03 which from what I read isn't all that great.  It would have been awesome if you could jump in the air AND shoot.  That would have totally made into my GC library.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: The Omen on January 05, 2004, 09:37:14 AM
I think RE:0 rips Devil may cry apart.  But thats just me.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: odifiend on January 05, 2004, 09:54:20 AM
Quote

It's not as easy as Nintendo just going out and "getting" these games- the simple fact of the matter is almost all Nintendo fans don't like sports games, and since one rarely buys a Gamecube unless they're a Nintendo fan, sports gamesjust won't sell well on the Gamecube

MC, you're completely right, Nintendo fans don't like sports games and therefore there isn't much incentive to make a sports game.  But at the same time Nintendo's lack of a sports lineup causes casual gamers who are most of the market now to just blow off Nintendo's system just as stmarco has decided to do next gen.  I know you don't care about the casual gamer from your many post and your editorial , but Nintendo should.  I am a Nintendo fan but (duh) don't really care for sports games.  Still I care that there are none.  Why? Because the casual gamer likes them and where the casual gamer is the RPGs tend to be, which I love.  Nintendo's lack of genres causes an indirect punishment on even their die hard fans.
That's why I gotta bow down to Ian Sane, and agree that Nintendo should be a model and lead by example if nothing else just to lure 3rd parties back.  Nintendo DOES have some control over who its developers are and what they develop by releasing games that are the same genre as the developers.  Personally I think it is Nintendo's lack of any online feature in a first party game that makes third parties ignore the fact that the GCN CAN go online.  This philosophy can be applied to sports games as well.
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: ThePerm on January 05, 2004, 10:02:18 AM
i find this to be the most redundant and rediculous discussion..really what people are arguing about is graphics...
gamecube games made by Nintendo are whimsical. So far however the best style game i have played so far is
prince of persia...then again that game just kicked ass on so many levels.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: mouse_clicker on January 05, 2004, 11:21:37 AM
Quote

I know you don't care about the casual gamer from your many post and your editorial  , but Nintendo should.


That is quite literally the only way for Nintendo to get back on top, is to get those casual gamers, and that's the only reason Sony is on top- my editorial's point was it doesn't matter if Nintendo doesn't get the casual gamers because they're still doing fine without them. My previous post's point was that simply having sports titles isn't going to bring back casual gamers- it's not as cut and dry as "getting" games, there's a lot more to it.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: odifiend on January 05, 2004, 01:07:33 PM
True but sports is a big complaint.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: mouse_clicker on January 05, 2004, 01:52:59 PM
Indeed, yes, but sports alone won't do squat for Nintendo. Rather they need all the staples of causal gamers.
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Berny on January 05, 2004, 01:58:48 PM
Oh, please. Mario, Zelda, and Samus are the forumla for success. They can make Mario sports games like crazy. They can make Zelda puzzle games. They can make Metroid....other type of game???? What else is there?
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: StRaNgE on January 05, 2004, 03:59:59 PM
I am not a fan of sports games either and at 30 I have enjoyed Nintendo as my main console  since they came out. Even with Genisis  super Nintendo was  played more.

I had  a 64 and  a ps1, 4 games for the ps1 and 40 or more for the 64.

X-box and  the cube are the same, I am pushing 100 games for the cube and only 1 is a realistic sports game which almost never gets touched. Madden.

I do however see the need for them and  agree if Nintendo themselves  were responsible for an exclusive realistic racing game, upgrading engine, tires effecting  the handling and so forth  with graphics as well, it might be the start of a domino effect for others to jump on the band wagon. As much as many seem against the casual gamer the majority of systems out there are owned by them and so forth  they do decide for the most part what  succeeds and does not.
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Mario on January 05, 2004, 04:15:37 PM
Imagine if EA came out with their own console, goodbye Sony. Of course it would never happen though.

Oh, and i think that Nintendo aren't really trying to capture casual gamers attention, but rather trying to turn casual gamers into more hardcore gamers? Just a feeling..
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: odifiend on January 05, 2004, 04:19:56 PM
This plan is too late to implement for the GCN, but a Nintendo/ Nintendo-exclusive sports line up would in the long run help Nintendo with the casual gamers.  I agree with you that sports games by themselves won't do much for Nintendo as a company and their release won't immediately make Nintendo a success, but a competitive sports line up would give the casual gamer one less thing to talk trash about and might qwell the bad parts of Nintendo's reputation ushering in a better shot for Nintendo next round.
MC, rereading your stuff I'm convinced that Nintendo is as you say in a good position from a business standpoint and a decent position fan-wise.  Still you just can't beat the fringe benefits that come with being the industry leader.  In that ideal situation Nintendo could make its great games and have 3rd parties fill in the holes.  In fact I think Nintendo is used to having this done for them and hasn't fully adapted to the absence of 3rd parties.  
Anyway the bottom line is that the sports genre is becoming increasingly more popular and Nintendo is not sufficiently accounting for it.  Sure casual gamers have other staples (Read horrendously violent, mindless video games), but those are not that hard to sate with some crappy 3rd party.
Berny: I liked Mario Tennis, and Golf was okay, but I would die if Nintendo started wasting resources on more gimmicky rubbish that would sell just because of a franchise.  The Zelda games have enough puzzle solving in them already (okay not really enough ), but it would be better for them to include the puzzles in whatever dungeon.  Anyway the point of releasing a Nintendo lineup is to attract the casual gamer who would be turned off by the Nintendoness of this.  Trust me, I don't fully agree with this thinking but they got the $$$ and I want my RPGs .  

Second thought that would be loads better... have Camelot work on nothing but RPGs.  OH YEAH!!!
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: odifiend on January 05, 2004, 04:23:46 PM
For those of you wondering, yes I do consider racing a sport.  No duh! Those athletes have to train their feet from falling asleep and their eyes from drooping.  I wish I had that skill!!
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Mario on January 05, 2004, 04:30:55 PM
The Hockey and Volleyball not-so-mini games in Mario Party 5 are like, so under rated. Everyone go play them.
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: ThePerm on January 05, 2004, 05:06:44 PM
i think the esrb needs to drop the M rating for a V or R rating
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: mouse_clicker on January 05, 2004, 05:23:53 PM
Quote

Still you just can't beat the fringe benefits that come with being the industry leader.


I've said exactly that, almost word for word, several times, odifiend. My point is there's no use worrying now because Nintendo's not going anywhere now. It is true that Nintendo would undoubtedly prosper from being the industry leader, but it's icing on the cake for me since they've given me everything I could ever need as a gamer.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Kyosho on January 05, 2004, 05:33:17 PM
sports is one thing.  But that definitely is not going to get people back to Nintendo.  You need to have a stellar 3rd party lineup which is what Nintendo lacks.  Nintendo is not going to win back people with sports.  It has a bunch of other gaps it needs to fill in for the other genres missing in its library.  Once, they get that back (which i'm predicting they won't unless they change their company philosophy), then sports would be a good way to appeal to more than just devoted blind Ninty followers.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: KDR_11k on January 05, 2004, 09:49:49 PM
Quote

Originally posted by: Kyosho
I was hoping for a Devil May Cry type of game from Capcom, but none to be found cept for PN03 which from what I read isn't all that great.  It would have been awesome if you could jump in the air AND shoot.  That would have totally made into my GC library.


PN03 is good when you expect it to be what it is. The game cannot be played on reflexes alone, you cannot run around, dodge projectiles and fire at the same time. The whole point is that you have to know when to stop moving or leave your cover and when to stop attacking and start dodging. The beta trailers show Vanessa running and gunning (with two machine guns) around, apparently they didn't like how the game played just like every other 3rd-person shooter. It's a bit short when you play it on easy, don't do that! Start in Normal or take at most a few levels in Easy so you can beat the first in Normal. Like most arcade shmups, the game doesn't take too long when you're good but can keep you occupied for a long time if you're not a god-player. BTW, some reviews claim you can easily kill a boss by using energy drives, if you read that you know the reviewer was too bad to play the game on Normal.


Ian: This training for a product is called "Consumer Education" by mono/oligopolists like Microsoft and the RIAA and is used to make people buy products with things like overkill copy protection or DRM, something the people hate. If that's the case with sport games, shouldn't we ask ourselves if the games lack something?
I can clearly see it being necessary for making people buy yearly updates, though.
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: thecubedcanuck on January 06, 2004, 01:51:51 AM
"they can make Mario sports games like crazy."

and no body other than die hard NIN fans will even touch them. I hate Mario sports titles personally. Tiger woods 2004  blows Mario golf out of the water.

" For those of you wondering, yes I do consider racing a sport. No duh! Those athletes have to train their feet from falling asleep and their eyes from drooping. I wish I had that skill!! "

You obviously have never drove a race car or know anyone who has.  You would be crying after 3 laps in a winston cup race, and in formula one the noise from the car would make you weep.

Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Ymeegod on January 06, 2004, 05:19:14 AM
"You're in luck. Rainbow Six 3 is coming to the 'Cube later this year"

?  Where did you get this?  I know the PS2 is getting a port but they didn't say anything about the GC.

Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Shadow Fox on January 06, 2004, 06:43:47 AM
Quote

Originally posted by: Ymeegod
"You're in luck. Rainbow Six 3 is coming to the 'Cube later this year"

?  Where did you get this?  I know the PS2 is getting a port but they didn't say anything about the GC.
Nintendo.com.  Raven Shield has been slated for all three consoles since the launch of Xbox and GCN 2 years ago.  Nothing's changed...

As for this whole concept, it's really the fact that sadly, most Nintendo hardcore fans, anti-Nintendo fanboys, and the "mainstream" audience have no clue that GameCube DOES HAVE Mature games- quite a few in fact (only 8 or so less than Xbox).

PS2 is the console with the most M-rated titles (well over 100+), and in that light, both Xbox AND GCN are "kiddy" having only 30+ a piece.

Just look around your local stores...Soul Reaver 2...Hitman 2...True Crime...Dead to Rights...Ghost Recon...RoadKill...Hunter: The Reckoning...you've probably also noticed that in-stores, M-rated GameCube games are damn-near hidden (even Resident Evil titles), PS2 and Xbox versions of the same game are the first thing you see on the wall.  

Is this a blatant act of fanboyism?  Maybe, but I think moreso it's Nintendo's lack of promoting M-rated gems like Eternal Darkness, and making sure they're placed well within the store to gain attention.  I shouldn't have to dig under 50 copies of Olsen Twins or Kirby Air Rid games just to find titles like Mortal Kombat: Deadly Alliance, where it's right in the middle of the PS2 and Xbox sections.

Check your local EB or GameStop and see if they don't follow the same trend...I've seen this in multiple states (even Hawaii), and even in Nintendo's larger chains such as Walmart, Target, and Toys'R us.  Nintendo needs either a street team, or more store visits from Nintendo reps.

But then again, it could just be me...

*P.S. mouse_clicker, I thought about posting this at the OTHER site, but I think there's enough "Debatable" concepts going on over there right now...*

-Official Ninja of PGC  
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: odifiend on January 06, 2004, 09:00:41 AM
cubedcanuck: stop being an ass.  The thread was intially talking about racing simulations whose story lines don't lead you to believe the drivers need anywhere close to NASCAR skill.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: mouse_clicker on January 06, 2004, 10:35:24 AM
odifiend: He's just correcting a misnformed person- you're veering just as much off topic as cubed is complaining about him.

Shadow Fox: Heh, that thread is definitely a fanboy magnetic- I'm surprised you're still sane.
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 06, 2004, 01:18:15 PM
KDR_11k: *thumbs up* to your P.N.03 description.  I've actually played this game more than Viewtiful Joe.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Deguello on January 06, 2004, 02:46:45 PM
Quote

Main Entry: 1ma·ture
Pronunciation: m&-'tur, -'tyur also -'chur
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): ma·tur·er; -est
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin maturus ripe; akin to Latin mane in the morning, manus good
Date: 15th century
1 : based on slow careful consideration <a mature judgment>
2 a (1) : having completed natural growth and development : RIPE (2) : having undergone maturation b : having attained a final or desired state <mature wine> c : having achieved a low but stable growth rate <paper is a mature industry>
3 a : of or relating to a condition of full development b : characteristic of or suitable to a mature individual <mature outlook>
4 : due for payment <a mature loan>
5 : belonging to the middle portion of a cycle of erosion


Tell me where says Blood, Sex, and being over the age of 17.  The ESRB rating system is flawed.
A Final or desired state?  Slow careful consideration? Completed natural growth and development?  Aren't those characteristic of nearly all Nintendo-made games?
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: mouse_clicker on January 06, 2004, 02:58:42 PM
I believe the Mature rating applies to the buyer rather than the game itself, meaning the person playing the game should be mature. That still leaves a heavy aftertaste of irony, though, because the people that M rated games generally appeal to are immature. Rather the people that look beyond surface features like blood and guts and search for deeper gameplay will usually find Nintendo games, making the average Nintendo fan more mature.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Kyosho on January 06, 2004, 06:09:57 PM
they should probably use the movie ratings instead or a different rating system.  The word "mature" is such a loose term.  If you were talking from a gaming perspective in CHOICE of games, then yes MouseClicker is correct.  However, there's more to it then that.  Because even some of most insane Nintendo fans are still immature in the real world.  I think the ESRB intends to warn the parents that "hey the content of this game may be somewhat explicit.  Be warned." But it obviously doesn't work out too well.  Too many monkeys @ ESRB.
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: ThePerm on January 06, 2004, 07:36:34 PM
an EX rating may be more appropriate..maybe they'll have to change the E rating to G general...
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Hostile Creation on January 07, 2004, 02:10:23 AM
I don't think the E to G is a good idea.  Everyone is a fine title for a rating, and doesn't turn anyone away, usually.  G will make people think of The Little Mermaid and other childish Disney movies, and it'll probably turn them off.
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Deguello on January 07, 2004, 03:05:39 AM
"I believe the Mature rating applies to the buyer rather than the game itself, meaning the person playing the game should be mature."

I know, that's why I said it's flawed.  The ESRB rates games, not people.  I think R would be better than M.  A more effective method of content rating would be more akin to the way they do it to TV shows.  It has a rating with certain letters that mark off the content therein, like V for Violence and such..   The good thing about changing the rating would be the actual changing of it could make news, and thus make more people aware, and the bad part would be the industry analysts lose a buzzword to throw around.

What I meant with the definition posting was I'm kinda getting tired of worthless chaps on other forums clamoring for Nintendo to (quote) "Make mature games" when they barely understand what the word means.  And the same goes for buzzword analysts.
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Plugabugz on January 07, 2004, 03:55:44 AM
Quote
Slow careful consideration?

If you live in Europe or Australia, we surely know the meaning to this

In Europe, we have PEGI (www.pegi.info) which is just as pointless as ESRB in my opinion.
F-Zero GX has a 3+. BUT, F-Zero is way too fast for anyone that age or above to play it.
Metroid Prime is a 12+, and it carries the symbol for violence. More detail should be provided to explain it's violence.

Each game, I believe, should be supplied with a note or leaflet for parents to read which explains the game's visual and verbal content.

But then, that leaflet would be pointless for me, as I buy all my own games anyway.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: misterd on January 07, 2004, 10:57:49 AM
Quote

Originally posted by: nionlights
The current rating system is ridiculous-what is the point of a rating system which the majority of parents do not understand?  There is/was absolutely no reason why the "ESRB" couldn't just adopt the MPAA rating system (G, PG, PG-13, etc); no fuss, no crazy ratings that aren't ever used, just plain, simple movie-style ratings.  Oh, and here's my (only) problem with Nintendo, or, rather, the state of video games today-10 years ago, or whenever it was, when i fell in love with the Super Nintendo, there was no question that it had ALL the games.  You want sports games?  SNES had plenty.  You want "x" type of game from "x" developer?  SNES had them all.  Nowadays, I have to hold my breath, cross my fingers in the hopes that a good 3rd-party game that I've just heard about will get to the Cube.  It's not a pleasant feeling...



1) It is my understanding that the MPAA owns the rights to all the ratings except "X" (which is why porn movies could use it so freely). For the gaming industry to use these ratings they would probably have to pay the MPAA. I don't know what that would cost, but long term it might be worth it.

2) I have said it before and will say it again. Being "mature" has nothing to do with guns, drugs, whores and cursing. Maturinty is getting a job, paying the bills, taking care of a family. In short, the most mature game out there is The Sims.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 07, 2004, 11:00:52 AM
Don't forget Harvest Moon.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: nionlights on January 08, 2004, 08:56:38 AM
Quote

Originally posted by: misterd


2) I have said it before and will say it again. Being "mature" has nothing to do with guns, drugs, whores and cursing. Maturinty is getting a job, paying the bills, taking care of a family. In short, the most mature game out there is The Sims.


In real-world situations, yes.  But I find it odd that no one thinks of the term "mature themed" as it relates to sex, drugs, violence, etc.  Sure, what you're describing is "maturity in life," but don't bring that over to video games-we don't do the same to movies.  If a movie is rated "R", it has "adult content;" in other words, the movie contains "mature content," many times the sex, drugs, and violence that you say has nothing to do with the term "mature."  Perhaps they should change it to "adult themes..."  to please those who don't understand the ESRB's use of the word "mature."

Another point: 10-11 year olds are not prepared to experience games like Grand Theft Auto or Manhunt, that's the primary reason why the "Mature" rating is supposed to bar them from purchasing these games.  A 10 or 11 year old is not going to be equipped enough to deal with seeing tons of blood and gore all over a screen, whether that be a very "mature" game, or an R-rated movie; I think we can agree that once you "mature" a little more in life, you become better equipped to handle seeing movies like "Goodfellas" or playing games like GTA without as serious a risk of unwanted side effects.

The outcry from some (not I, for the most part) for more "mature" games for the Gamecube, though, does not necessarily coincide with "how many 'M' games 'X' system has."  A lot of it has to do with perception, yes (much of it false, like "Nintendo is a completely kiddy system"), but a lot of it deals with demographics.  Nintendo tends to target their games towards those a little bit younger on the spectrum than other companies do; the popular games for the GC that get a lot of hype, therefore, are games like Zelda and, well, any Mario title.  People tend to not see that the GC has more Resident Evils than most can handle, or Eternal Darkness, or really good, "mature" multiplatform fighting games like Soul Calibur.  I do think, though, that this whine for more mature games would end/would have ended with a Gamecube version of GTA.

I'm through ranting.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: VoodooMerlin on January 08, 2004, 10:12:12 AM
Sadly though....why does GTA have to be the benchmark of a mature game? I personally think that the game is massively overrated. The underage gamers were the ones who gave it it's notoriety. Unfortunately you do have "mature" gamers that overlook the Nintendo machine because of a lack of presence of that game. It's too bad.

Nintendo has always had a ton of mature games. It's just that when most people think of Nintendo, the word-association picture that pops into their heads is one of a little cartoon plumber in blue overalls. Or a round pink bubblegum blob. Sometimes I swear that Mario is Nintendo's curse.

People deemed the N64 as a "kiddie system" without even looking at the system's library past the Mario and Zelda titles, which really pissed me off since I was working in the industry from the N64's inception. Every time I heard the system slammed as such I wanted to shove a copy of Shadowman down their throats. The "cute" games were easily outnumbered by games that contained violence. Remember the launch of Doom and Quake to the 64? Forsaken? Conker (lol)? How quickly people forget. I own a great library of N64 titles and looking at my wall of game boxes right now, I can't help but feel that if people KNEW of the variety that appeared on the system, they'd run out and buy one and start playing some of these titles.

It's going to be the same with the Cube. It seems funny that when Resident Evil was on the PSX, that game series and the machine were the "gotta have" stuff. "Oh I'm a hardcore Resident Evil Fan (tm)." So what happened to all of those RE fans once the series returned to Nintendo? I know people that haven't continued the series because they won't buy a "kiddie Cube". It drives me nuts.

Their loss, I guess.

BTW....I can't understand why PN03 was slammed the way it was. I"m glad that I bought it BEFORE hearing about any reviews. Getting that thong bikini is a blast!
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Ian Sane on January 08, 2004, 10:52:39 AM
"I own a great library of N64 titles and looking at my wall of game boxes right now, I can't help but feel that if people KNEW of the variety that appeared on the system, they'd run out and buy one and start playing some of these titles."

So really Nintendo's "mature games" problem has to do with marketing.  If Nintendo raised better awareness of the variety of their library then the "kiddy" stereotype would be less of a problem.  Makes sense since marketing is often sited as one of Nintendo's biggest problems.  The "kiddy" image is really more of a sympton than a problem itself.

"Sometimes I swear that Mario is Nintendo's curse."

Curse is right.  With Mario as their mascot they may never overcome their negative image but at the same time getting rid of him would be getting rid of the sales he brings and would piss off a LOT of Nintendo fans.  I think what they have to do is keep him but make him less Barney-like.  Make him the silent character he was on the NES and SNES (his voice is insanely kiddy) and make his games less bright.  I don't mean make them dark and scary just more like the Donkey Kong games Rare made.  Those are kid-friendly without everything looking all super-happy-fun-fun.  Super Mario RPG actually would be a great reference point since it's kid-friendly, is already Mario related, and has a less cheerful look.
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 08, 2004, 02:44:23 PM
"super-happy-fun-fun" should be an official word.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Hostile Creation on January 08, 2004, 03:08:18 PM
Mario and Luigi is an awesome game.  Just had to say it, since you're hatin' on Mario

Yeah, Mario could be less super-happy-fun-fun.  But I don't want them to be anything like DK and Rare.  The SNES ones were all right, especially the first two, but the third?  And 64?  Blech.  I know what you mean, though.  Very neutral graphics in the sense of maturity/kiddiness.
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: KDR_11k on January 08, 2004, 07:22:40 PM
Why even bother with leters? Why force people to learn what things like "mature", "everybody", etc means? Here they just write "unsuitable under X years" on the box (or "not cleared for youths") and everybody knows what it means.
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Deguello on January 08, 2004, 10:10:00 PM
I wouldn't want Mario bastardized for the sale rack.
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: KDR_11k on January 09, 2004, 05:35:50 AM
That reminds me how someone on the NoE forums actually wanted Mario to run around with a chainsaw and spill blood everywhere...
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Ian Sane on January 09, 2004, 06:15:16 AM
"I wouldn't want Mario bastardized for the sale rack."

Would he really be bastardized though?  I'm really suggesting they make him more like he used to be on the NES and SNES:  Silent and with more universal appeal.  In my opinion the "whee-hee" Mario that debuted in Super Mario 64 is a bastardized Mario.  The "real" Mario hasn't been seen since Super Mario RPG.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: mouse_clicker on January 09, 2004, 10:21:12 AM
Mario is Mario- I don't think he's changed much at all from the NES, and if so, for the better. Mario is not Nintendo's problem, people, get over it.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: The Omen on January 09, 2004, 10:25:22 AM
Most people old enough to remember Mario in the begining still like the games now.  Thats people around 30 years old now.  So i dont think its a problem.  If anything, you'd only be changing to satisfy the younger Playstation era gamers , which is not what we want.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: VoodooMerlin on January 10, 2004, 01:22:04 AM
I'd want Mario left exactly the way he is and here's why. Consistency. When my friend and I want comic relief in a surreal world, we reach for the Mario games. We know what we're going to get every time. We were initially surprised at Sunshine's difficulty compared to the 64 game.....but in the end it's good ol' reliable Mario. Now what they COULD do is take Mr Wario, who is Mario's evil other side and push him in a "darker" direction. You can easily picture Wario running around with a chainsaw.

Ian Sane got what I was sorta saying before. Nintendo need to stand up tall and say to the world "Hey look. Here's the new Resident Evil. You've got to play it?. Get a Cube." Or make people aware  that they ALSO have the same third party mature titles that have just arrived on the rival systems....but in a louder voice than they have been doing in the past. People like g-r-a-p-h-i-c-s and technical flash. When was the last time that they touted the POWER and CAPABILITIES of this awesome little Cube. It flat out buries the PS2 any day and can easily rub shoulders with most of the stuff that the XboX is currently showing. My brother just bought a PS2 for his 7 yr old sons. Everyone (biased adult opinions) at the factory that he works at told him to buy the Sony or the XboX. He's coming over tonight and has yet to see a Cube running. He's going to be pissed that he didn't choose the Nintendo system. All I need to do is pop in Mario Kart. ESPECIALLY since the Cube is considerably less money to purchase!

The XboX is HEAVILY advertising that "it's good to play together". Well gee whiz....the Nintendo machines have always promoted "playing together". That's why they put 4 controller ports on them.

Nintendo needs a louder advertising voice for games other than first party ones. They seem shy about shouting. When Mario, Zelda, Kirby and Pokemon games are released, the whole world is made to hear, loud and clear. Third party? A whisper. God knows they've got the finances to spend if they wish to.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: odifiend on January 10, 2004, 03:54:49 AM
As bad as Wario is, Nintendo will never give him or any other of their a chainsaw... unless it is animal crossing to cut down trees.
Going back to the sports issue before, did anyone notice that NFL Street is being pushed a little harder for the GameCube than any other system?  (Some commercial end in the GameCbe logo only, but nothing like that for PS2 or Xbox) I think it would be great if EA Big became a Nintendo second party, because they make the mature sports games that a lot of people want but at the same time they make them so over the top, even hardcore Nintendo fans play them, a miracle in itself.  Along with having sports taken care of, Nintendo would benefit from the large following of EA Big's NBA Street and SSX titles.

<<Goes back to sleep>>
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: The Omen on January 10, 2004, 05:55:19 AM
EA has been doing that with all their games.  I think its that deal sometime ago between EA and Nintendo when EA threatened to remove its sports lineup from the GC.  Even Madden 2004 has a GC only commercial.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: mouse_clicker on January 13, 2004, 03:55:38 PM
Quote

Originally posted by: nionlights
2) I have said it before and will say it again. Being "mature" has nothing to do with guns, drugs, whores and cursing. Maturinty is getting a job, paying the bills, taking care of a family. In short, the most mature game out there is The Sims.


This reminded of a Calvin and Hobbes strip I think fits the situation very nicely.  
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Renny on January 15, 2004, 05:23:27 AM
That site doesn't allow referrals from other sites. What's the strip's name?
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: ghostVi on January 15, 2004, 05:55:00 AM
Try going to http://www.reemst.com/calvin_and_hobbes/ and then paste the URL of the strip in the address bar.... it works, at least in Opera 7.50. Great site, I can't get enough of C&H
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Shift Key on January 19, 2004, 01:27:38 AM
Wow, talk about running around in circles.

It is easy to say that Nintendo fans don't like sports games, but wouldn't you rather have the option to not buy sports games that are available then to have no choice at all? Sports game developers see the lack of demand and steer clear of putting major projects onto said console, and the vicious cycle of hate continues...

All I'm saying is that Nintendo needs to pull in more games, in a wider variety of genres, from more publishers and developers, to remain competetive. Sure, they are remaining profitable as is, but they'd still want a greater market share.
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Guitar Smasher on January 19, 2004, 11:46:33 AM
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"I wouldn't want Mario bastardized for the sale rack."

Would he really be bastardized though?  I'm really suggesting they make him more like he used to be on the NES and SNES:  Silent and with more universal appeal.  In my opinion the "whee-hee" Mario that debuted in Super Mario 64 is a bastardized Mario.  The "real" Mario hasn't been seen since Super Mario RPG.


Bob Hoskins is the 'real' Mario.  'Nuff said!
Title: RE:Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: mouse_clicker on January 19, 2004, 12:00:35 PM
That's pretty dumb how they won't allow referrals- it would only increase their readership. Still, though, as ghost pointed out, it's a great Calvin and Hobbes website. The strip doesn't really have a name, but you can still see it here.

 
Title: RE: Mature Titles doesnt always mean Violent !
Post by: Termin8Anakin on January 19, 2004, 12:58:41 PM
Nintendo needs to make their consoles appealing to developers, simple as that (well not really, but anyway ).
They have not done that.
I don't buy sports games cause they don't catch my fancy and I can just play the real thing outside with friends. But I think it's the thing about playing with/as your fave stars that makes them popular to be made EVERY SINGLE BLOODY YEAR.

I think this mature debate can really be narrowed down to a few games, namely GTA3/VC and Manhunt.
People defend those games like us Nintendo-players defend Nintendo's games.

Munhunt is about the sick possibility of how far people will go in creating reality tv. But that is what people merely say just to buy the game - and then they indulge in all manner of sadistic pleasures in killing in more gruesome ways. It DOES have that certain appeal to me, but then that's cause I'm over 18 (well, 18 to be exact ).

The thing about kids is that they've always wanted to be like grown ups. The association with grown ups as a kid is that they have more freedom to do whatever they want. The closest they can get is imitating their fave stars, and doing their own thing. Sure it's part of growing up - to find you self identity - but then nowadays this is happening too early - I've seen 7 year olds going out on dates and it's a bit of a disturbing site.
Anything related to maturity then becomes popular - for boys, namely violent games and for girls, revealing clothes and for all, hip hop stars and gansta rappas.

Sorry if I'm trying to sound like some dumb sociologist.

Manhunt and GTA3 may be actually good games, but kids will only play it for the violent freedom.
I'm not too happy about current censorship dealies, but I can accept the fact that overly-violent games like this can be restricted to adults only. We can't stop parents buying for their kids, or older siblings playing it around younger siblings, but the least we can do is make it harder for kiddies to get their hands on it.