Post by: Sith on February 01, 2003, 05:54:03 PM
A prime example is Zelda: The Wind Waker, where they established a new graphics scheme, and many have followed suit. Another would have to be the onslaught of incredible games, inlcuding Pikmin.
Nintendo sets the standards to new innovations in the gaming industry, IMHO.
Post by: BlkPaladin on February 01, 2003, 06:52:44 PM
Post by: ThePerm on February 01, 2003, 06:56:00 PM
Post by: BlkPaladin on February 01, 2003, 07:00:36 PM
Post by: Infernal Monkey on February 01, 2003, 08:41:46 PM
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Originally posted by: Sith
A prime example is Zelda: The Wind Waker, where they established a new graphics scheme, and many have followed suit.
*Ahem*
*Points to Jet Set Radio's graphics engine* =P
Post by: Matt on February 01, 2003, 08:46:48 PM
Post by: dogcow on February 01, 2003, 08:50:37 PM
But they are pretty daring on making games.
Post by: DarkDraco2K2 on February 01, 2003, 10:34:13 PM
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Originally posted by: ThePerm
you werent going to see Mr Iwata-san do much in his first few months. He hasnt even began. This is a man who was under the wing of Yamauchi. He is younger but he has been taught many things. He could really turn the company back into theraging tiger it once was.
We can only hope... I really hope that they can get back up into at least second place (if they aren't right now.. I'm not exactly sure). They have major potential, but if they're not aggressive, They're never going to get back up to where they once were. Not that it really matters to me, personally, as long as I still get to play the games, but they need to take more action. Get better advertisers. Appeal to the "mature" crowd a bit more (no, I don't necessarily mean games like GTA or others with mindless violence or whatever, but more stuff along the lines of Metroid Prime and Eternal Darkness). Decide on an online plan. Nintendo needs to change quite a bit if they expect to reach out to more people and sell more consoles.
Post by: TheResidentEvil on February 03, 2003, 06:17:23 AM
Post by: aoi tsuki on February 03, 2003, 01:32:46 PM
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...its waaay more daredevlish to change Zelda than make a new franchise that looks like that.
Or is it more "daredevilish" to make a game that combines rollerblading with tagging and running from the cops using a fresh graphics style while jammin to a soundtrack that ranges from old school house to indie Japanese rock "mixed" by a DJ with a K on his head?
Until someone invents the daredevilometer, the world will never know.
Post by: Sean on February 16, 2003, 07:49:47 AM
Good ideas here and there (like showing how young Matt experiences his newly acquired powers through handicap--I found this well done), a couple decent fight sequences (almost no really good action sequences--in fact, almost no action sequences period), some incredibly bad dialogue, too predictable, and overall lacking in energy and fun. Oh, and Ben Affleck isn't Daredevil.
With that out of the way, I think it's safe to say that Nintendo is indeed conservative--everyone knows this. And it is their restraint and conservation that directs their decision-making and allows their games to have that beautiful subtlety, which sets them apart from most, if not all. Showing restraint in the current gaming age is about as daring as you can get.
Post by: Uglydot on February 16, 2003, 08:22:40 AM
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on February 16, 2003, 08:25:48 AM
I wouldnt necessarilly call it dardevilish, but rather revolutionary milestone work that gets copied but never to the same quality, ie target system from Zelda.
Post by: Agent on February 16, 2003, 08:36:45 AM
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As you have seen in the past and the present that Nintendo is the only company to take the big risks in game production.
A prime example is Zelda: The Wind Waker
I know the point of your topic, was to make a feel-good nintendo post, but yes that really is a bad example.
I don't think it was genre-defining, or original to realease a sequel. Sequel's are safe bets that can get you cash, as well as please fans. . Are you referring to them putting the cel-shaded in it. Cel-shaded games have been done, so thats not really original either.
BTW, to the other guy, JSRF WAS a sequel. And loved by fans of the dreamcast who had the original. Just becuase the original wasn't realeased on a nintendo console, or wasn't loved by AS many, doesn't mean it wasn't a good series.
Post by: theaveng on February 16, 2003, 10:39:33 AM
As for Zelda, it's the same old game with elements *borrowed* from other games like Final Fantasy and Jet Set Radio. Sure if you want to believe Nintendo's propaganda that "cel-shading is new and never-done-before" that's your choice, but a quick look at a game catalog shows cel-shading is nothing new.
Post by: WesDawg on February 16, 2003, 12:47:41 PM
Post by: The Omen on February 16, 2003, 01:38:55 PM
As far as taking risks, they have taken some big ones since releasing the GC. First off , LOZ:WW is a huge risk. Nintendo was assured of incredible sales if it stayed as close to the series as possible. To completely change the look of one of the best games EVER is daring. AC and METROID PRIME are other examples. Metroid-people were clamoring for a metroid game for about 10 years. And then they change it to first person, which everyone hated! But they did, that is daring. To me, changing a game that will sell if you just threw out the same old formula is taking a risk. A daring move.
Post by: theaveng on February 16, 2003, 04:29:15 PM
QuoteI was talking about the Wind Waker. According to reviews, the new game is much, much more dependent upon story with myriad cutscenes. Like an RPG. Like FF10. That's what I was referring to.
Originally posted by: The Omen
Since when has Zelda taken anything from Final Fantasy? OOT...
re: Cel-shading, yeah it's a risk. But that wasn't my point. I was objecting to this statement: "Nintendo is only company to take big risks". The *only* company? NO. Several of companies have done cel-shading already. No offense to Sith, but his statement sounds like someone who doesn't read anything else but Nintendo Power. For those of us who DO look beyond Nintendo, it's obvious that Zelda's cel-shading is neither the "only" game of its type or a "new" graphics scheme.
BTW, good points with Animal Crossing and Pikmin. Definitely unusual games. Well, sorta. Animal Crossing is like the Sims 3D. But Pikmin doesn't copy any other games (that I know of), and is definitely original.
Post by: ThePerm on February 16, 2003, 04:46:35 PM
Final Fantasy came out a year before zelda, but i dont htink they really had any correlation with each other. Games were going to get more and more cutscenes when it became possible given the power of the systems to make cutscenes.Wind Waker takes what they had in oot and kicks it up.
Post by: Mario on February 16, 2003, 05:00:25 PM
Post by: AGENTDICKLAURENT on February 16, 2003, 06:10:56 PM
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Wind Waker is not the first cel shaded game, but it IS the first popular celshaded game.
Eh no.. stick to the other point. The risk Nintendo took with Zelda was changing Zelda, doesn't have anything to do with cel-shading per see. Making a cel-shaded game isn't risky. Changing something you know already works was the risk. For example see what Capcom did with the MegaMan games in the NES-days or what Capcom did with the Street Fighter games in the 16-bit era or what they've done with the Resident Evil franchise. Good examples of what a company that won't risk changes to something would do.
Sorry Capcom..
Post by: Termin8Anakin on February 16, 2003, 09:51:12 PM
Nintendo, of course, isn't the only company who takes risks, but they are the biggest company to take risks this side of Sega.
Do you know what I say to all the people who are comparing the 'cool' graphics of Sly Racoon (and JSRF)to the 'kiddy' graphics in Zelda?
"Both Sly Racoon and Zelda use a new graphics technique called 'cel-shading'. It's like an advanced form of 2D sprites, which were used in old games like Doom and Wolfenstien, and makes the game like a live cartoon. You can tell that it's cel-shaded by the big thick black outlines that all the characters have. The reason why the new Zelda doens't have it is because Nintendo have used a sort of next-generation of cel-shading, which rids the game of the outlines, and gives it a more natural look. Companies everywhere are using cel-shading now. It's like a current trend. Nintendo just took it to the next level."
And yes, there's some 'Nintenso is great' sorta comments there, but that's the only way I can get them to listen. Tell them everyone does the same things over and over again, and that Nintendo does things differently, and infinitely better than everyone. But then I say if they think the new Zelda looks good, they say 'yes'.
I leave the store with a smile. My job is done.
Post by: Tael on February 16, 2003, 10:46:57 PM
QuoteWrong, the outlines are there because they want them to be there, it's a design decision. They actually have to add polys to the models to create the outlines.
Originally posted by: Termin8Anakin
The reason why the new Zelda doens't have it is because Nintendo have used a sort of next-generation of cel-shading, which rids the game of the outlines, and gives it a more natural look.
Post by: Termin8Anakin on February 16, 2003, 11:00:09 PM
At least i got those kids interested in Zelda.
And that's all that counts to me - awareness that Nintendo is better than most, if not all developers.
Post by: Kuchakor on February 17, 2003, 03:10:48 AM
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Originally posted by: theavengQuote
Originally posted by: The Omen
BTW, good points with Animal Crossing and Pikmin. Definitely unusual games. Well, sorta. Animal Crossing is like the Sims 3D. But Pikmin doesn't copy any other games (that I know of), and is definitely original.
Well, Animal Forest (what AC started as on N64) and when was the Sims ever 2d??
Selling Rare might also be considered a risk, but....
so long banjo....
Post by: Agent on February 17, 2003, 04:09:11 AM
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Originally posted by: Mario
Wind Waker is not the first cel shaded game, but it IS the first popular celshaded game.
Quote
BTW, to the other guy, JSRF WAS a sequel. And loved by fans of the dreamcast who had the original. Just becuase the original wasn't realeased on a nintendo console, or wasn't loved by AS many, doesn't mean it wasn't a good series.
Not on the level of zelda, but still popular none the less.
Post by: theaveng on February 17, 2003, 06:19:21 AM
Just look at this topic. You guys are bending over backwards to make Nintendo look like a goddess on a pedestal. You claim Zelda was first in cel-shading. Um, No..... You claim Zelda is setting new trends in gaming. Again, No..... You claim Nintendo is exploring new territory by releasing the same old puzzle/adventure game that they've been releasing for the last 15 years. Sorry, No..... I've played the Wind Waker demo. The dungeons play exactly the same as Zelda: Ocarina of Time. They haven't changed it. IN REALITY, Nintendo is no more "daring" or "risk-taking" than Capcom, or Sega, or Sony, or Activision, or any other top-of-the-line game developer. IN REALITY, Zelda: WW is merely taking a tiny step forward... nothing daring or radical.
A game like Mr.Mosquito is radical/daring. Zelda is not.
My advice to some of you: Take off the rose-colored glasses. Nintendo is just a game company, not a love partner. Try to be objective.
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re: The Sims. I thought there was a 2D version on old 16-bit computers. Perhaps I'm thinking of another game called "Little Computer People" by Activision?
Post by: Arek Rashan on February 17, 2003, 07:14:43 AM
Regarding innovation in gameplay, I'd like to make the observation that cel-shading can be nice and all, but ultimately it's just a different renderer, and the most immediate and vital part of Wind Waker's gameplay is its combat system. I haven't got my hands on it yet, but it looks identical to my cup of tea. Historical precedent and what I've heard and seen of its mechanics lead me to believe that game designers and hardcore enthusiasts will use it as a reference point for third person games for years to come.
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Post by: Hemmorrhoid on February 17, 2003, 07:18:41 AM
Capcom is certainly daring with Killer 7 or Viewtiful Joe and some other companies aswell.
But its really not so much being daring, but being innovative and good at the same time.
I dont think its was very RISKY of anyone ever to release a new concept, usually those actually excite people more than old concepts. Of course you take a risk with a totally wierd game like REZ, but those arent mainstream targeted anyway.
So generally releasing a new original title doesnt mean much risk, in this world of sucessful series it might be hard to establish, but new games that promise quality might get just as much attention.
I dont know how much you guys know about PC gaming, but games like STALKER or FARCRY (actually planned for all consoles too) are new original ideas but due to their interesting concepts and graphics already fascinated many people even though those games are scheduled for 2004.
I think developers know when a game is good, a certain risk is always involved, even with sequels.
Post by: Agent on February 17, 2003, 09:47:24 AM
Post by: theaveng on February 17, 2003, 12:58:16 PM
"The biggest real change, and it is a drastic one, is that Kaze no Takuto has taken on a stronger RPG design than any of its predecessors. While battles are still real-time and there are no experience points or “leveling up”, the story takes a far more prominent role than Zelda fans are used to. It’s not that the game’s design has been compromised to account for more plot, but rather that the same amount of story progression always infused into the series is now much more effective. To put it bluntly, the story is great. It’s creative, motivating, and unpredictable. It looks at the Zelda mythos from an entirely new perspective, and longtime fans of the series will be delighted to see a new take on the legend."
"The other RPG-like difference is the overworld. ... Link and his boat have an unbelievably huge world to traverse, and travel becomes a major new theme for the game. For the most part, it works wonders. The sea is literally full of things to do, monsters to defeat, and places to explore. If your favorite part of Final Fantasy games is exploring the overworld for secret places, you will have many, many hours of fun in Zelda’s nautical landscapes."
Source: Planet GameCube: http://www.planetgamecube.com/reviews.cfm?action=profile&id=264
So basically, the new Zelda is borrowing the ideas of a detailed, in-depth story and sidequests from already-existing RPGs.
