Post by: KDR_11k on November 26, 2003, 04:15:13 AM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on November 26, 2003, 05:39:47 AM
or things have to be SEMI-cel-shaded (looks like things COULD BE, but isn't quite -- Sunshine, Double Dash).
Flat colors ahoy!
Post by: mouse_clicker on November 26, 2003, 06:17:28 AM
Really, thought it only seems like you guys are saying this to get some attention. :/ The same thing has been said hundreds of times and I'm getting pretty sick of it. Don't you have anything better to do? Or at least could you post in existing threads?
Post by: Ian Sane on November 26, 2003, 06:28:02 AM
Post by: egman on November 26, 2003, 07:18:50 AM
Pikmin, as mouse-clicker said, is another beautiful game. And the little bit of media that has come out for Pikmin 2 shows that it is looking better.
In the end, I think texture quality and things like bump-mapping that strive to makes surfaces standout are over-rated. These things won't make a game feel more solid if the basic engine is devoid of good art or a stable framerate for instance.
Post by: KDR_11k on November 26, 2003, 10:53:48 AM
Post by: manunited4eva22 on November 26, 2003, 11:13:30 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on November 26, 2003, 11:33:10 AM
The graphical look that EAD gives its games is deliberate...It has nothing to do with competence...
Post by: mouse_clicker on November 26, 2003, 12:09:36 PM
Post by: Grey Ninja on November 26, 2003, 01:40:15 PM
It's also a common misconception that the only thing you can do with the awesome power of a console is make highly detailed models and textures. It's not. You can also create a great amount of ambience, such as blowing grass, better framerates, more activity in the backgrounds, and all sorts of stuff like that. EAD lives by that philosophy. They would rather create a better world than create more detailed characters.
Personally, I don't see a problem with the textures. It's true that they can be a little blurry at times, but I am usually too busy playing the game to really examine whether or not the rock has blurred cracks or not.
Post by: Uglydot on November 26, 2003, 06:50:27 PM
Post by: Deguello on November 26, 2003, 09:39:49 PM
Post by: Berny on November 27, 2003, 02:50:53 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on November 27, 2003, 07:11:50 AM
Post by: Grey Ninja on November 27, 2003, 07:57:37 AM
Post by: Koopa Troopa on November 27, 2003, 08:06:21 AM
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mouse, indeed Cel Shading is a form of texturing in itself. It's a common misconception that Cel-Shading requires less power and less talent to execute.
Indeed. In fact, most of the time, it requires more power than most other things (it is more taxing on the hardware, and therefore more taxing for all involved in the development). Especially in something like WW, where great pains were obviously taken to make the cel-shading seamless. I mean, looking at WW you can see everything blends perfectly, the characters don't contrast with the background, they complement it. None of that happens by accident.
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It's also a common misconception that the only thing you can do with the awesome power of a console is make highly detailed models and textures. It's not. You can also create a great amount of ambience, such as blowing grass, better framerates, more activity in the backgrounds, and all sorts of stuff like that. EAD lives by that philosophy. They would rather create a better world than create more detailed characters.
Absolutely. One of the most beautiful games this generation is, in my opinion, Luigi's Mansion. Sure Some of the character textures had that dithered look, but the game was just incredibly attractive. From the Luigi's flashlight to his little vacuum vortex that would blow up dust particles or suck up bed sheets. And all of that would often times be happening through an alpha-blended wall. It was jsut stunning, absolutely stunning.
Post by: GoldShadow1 on November 27, 2003, 08:46:39 AM
Ah yes, I almost forgot about Pikmin. That game is amazing. In any case, as long as EAD can pump out more Super Mario Sunshine's and Pikmin's, I can't complain
Post by: KDR_11k on November 27, 2003, 09:35:36 AM
By the way, a lot of that stuff is used to determine where to draw the black outline, something obviousely not present in windwaker. In games this is usually done by copying the mesh, scaling along vertex normals, inverting the normals and applying a black texture. Doesn't look as good as correctly calculated lines (the flaws are pretty visible in Viewtiful Joe) but is a whole lot easier to do and takes less processing time (even though it effectively doubles the triangle count).
Post by: Shadow Link on November 27, 2003, 12:09:23 PM
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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Grey: Not necessarily. However, we can be pretty sure about it requiring a completely different kind of talent, namely coding. The textures used by cel-shaded models ARE much more simple than those used by normal ones. In fact, these textures are so simple even I can do them without any problems and I'm pretty bad with everything 2d.
By the way, a lot of that stuff is used to determine where to draw the black outline, something obviousely not present in windwaker. In games this is usually done by copying the mesh, scaling along vertex normals, inverting the normals and applying a black texture. Doesn't look as good as correctly calculated lines (the flaws are pretty visible in Viewtiful Joe) but is a whole lot easier to do and takes less processing time (even though it effectively doubles the triangle count).
If all these textures and cel shading models are so simple and easy for you why dont you post a render of your work?
Post by: mjbd on November 27, 2003, 01:59:40 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on November 27, 2003, 02:03:39 PM
Post by: Ocarina Blue on November 27, 2003, 03:10:27 PM
Post by: mjbd on November 27, 2003, 04:58:47 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on November 28, 2003, 04:44:12 AM
Post by: Grey Ninja on November 28, 2003, 06:45:48 AM
My hat's off to you.But I STILL maintain that skill in coding and skill in texturing is not so different as you would like to believe.
Post by: KDR_11k on November 28, 2003, 07:32:05 PM
Post by: Grey Ninja on November 28, 2003, 08:19:49 PM
As you said, the job that is normally one for the texture artists is left up to the coders, who typically make a mess of everything artistic. (It's easier to change the specs to fit the code than vice versa). The artists then have the job of guiding the coders, which I would imagine is quite a bit more difficult than slapping a standard texture on a polygon.
Post by: Koopa Troopa on November 29, 2003, 06:53:56 AM
I've never had a problem with EAD's textures, they've always been attractive, cohesive and consistent with everything in the game world. Are some of the textures simple looking? Yes, but should this reflect back on the artists? I'm sure it is something decided on the "designer" level.
Also worth noting is that nine times out of ten the the worlds are beautifully textured, I'm not about to judge the artists because a simpler look was chosen for the character.
Post by: Shadow Link on December 01, 2003, 01:00:01 AM
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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Shadowlink: Here. I'd like to use the outline trick for demonstration, but my main computer has a problem and crashes when I start Blender. Had to take these pics on my laptop, which is so slow it'd take twenty minutes for it to interpret my input.
What exactly did you use to make it? Do you have proof that you made it or is it just a downloaded tutorial model?
If you made it then good work.
Post by: KDR_11k on December 02, 2003, 09:49:36 AM
I used Blender and Photoshop. Actually there is only texture on the face, the rest is just colored material. It's 4.5k tris IIRC.
Post by: nolimit19 on December 02, 2003, 10:09:43 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on December 02, 2003, 10:13:57 AM
Post by: nolimit19 on December 02, 2003, 11:03:44 AM
Post by: the_zombie_luke on December 02, 2003, 11:42:48 AM
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Originally posted by: Bill
Not in mine...Did I get the special "steady framerate" edition?
At the final boss, I saw a lot of slowdown. I could see some on the manta ray episode, too. Wind Waker, though, I've only seen slowdown once, and it was my fault. I won't be able to explain it well, but I did something before a fish jumped out to talk.
Post by: Hostile Creation on December 02, 2003, 01:31:13 PM
Textures? In some cases, yes, they are slightly lacking. However, I was more impressed by the textures in games like Luigi's Mansion and Pikmin than I ever was by games on other systems, or by other companies, like Halo, Splinter Cell, or Final Fantasy.
Post by: Grey Ninja on December 02, 2003, 01:54:32 PM
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Originally posted by: Bill
Not in mine...Did I get the special "steady framerate" edition?
Yeah, I think I got that one too.
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Textures? In some cases, yes, they are slightly lacking. However, I was more impressed by the textures in games like Luigi's Mansion and Pikmin than I ever was by games on other systems, or by other companies, like Halo, Splinter Cell, or Final Fantasy.
Glad someone brought that up. Halo had some simply fugly textures.
Post by: Berny on December 02, 2003, 02:08:44 PM
Post by: Hostile Creation on December 02, 2003, 02:16:37 PM
Post by: Uglydot on December 02, 2003, 02:19:40 PM
And no one is insulting the use of cel-shading or otherwise by stating which is easier to create textures for. The textures are simpler and the wire frames are more complex. We all know it takes more processing power many times. Both techniques, cel-shading and the normal method, are have their respective places. I would prefer my Bond games, Madden games, Mario games, and other such titles to be done the normal way. Zelda, RPGs, cartoon based titles or niche titles I like cel-shading. And of course, there are always cross-overs. My coding experience includes web-design and enough c to make a calculator, so I won't comment on that aspect. I simply feel they both have pros and cons, as well as their own difficulties.
Post by: Koopa Troopa on December 02, 2003, 03:38:23 PM
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Not in mine...Did I get the special "steady framerate" edition?
I must have that one as well. Lucky me
