Post by: mr_tibbs on October 23, 2003, 12:18:44 PM
My stats are based on the NPD sales figures.
Just food for thought.
Post by: Bill Aurion on October 23, 2003, 12:23:53 PM
Instead of finding a scapegoat for their poor sales(the GC), developers should be looking at their own competency, or should I say, lack thereof...
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 23, 2003, 12:58:13 PM
Post by: Rich on October 23, 2003, 01:44:08 PM
Post by: Yuji Miyamoto on October 23, 2003, 02:45:56 PM
What about when your system has "suppossedly" over 50 million units world wide and you still sell under 50,000? That's just embarassing. Most ps2 software is junk. My ps2 sits in front of me gathering dust and acting as a stand for my Dreamcast.
Post by: Raising_Hell on October 23, 2003, 02:53:06 PM
The fact that the user base is 18 million is promising because this gives even the developer who is making a game that is a burden to society, a better chance at actually selling 50 or 200,000 copies. 18 million people possibly means 9 million idiots and that also may mean 1 or 2 million idiot rich kids who buy anything they want even if it's not good cause daddy can afford to get more games for them anyway. Developers don't really care about making a good game most of the time, the more money they can make for a stupid game the better.
What the developers study is the buyers and their competitors. In GameCube's case it is more their competitor rather than the buyer. Still, I believe that the people who own a GameCube have a basic experience in games, they at least appreciate them and they are somewhat demanding. It is harder to sell a bad game to a person like this (I am not saying that all GC owners are great games critics and that there are no people who might be suckered up into getting a bad game or who may not care if the game is bad but are just attracted by one feature like graphics), therefore companies are somewhat hesitant on making a game for the Cube. Add the fact that Nintendo is every developer's main competitor and the GameCube becomes a dangerous investment. This all without counting the fact that there are alot less Cubes than PS2's around.
There are two reasons in my opinion for this phenomenon, one is the mass of more casual or "trendy" gamers, and the other is the overwhelming freedon Sony (and Microsoft) have given developers. There is nothing that controls or presses the developers into really giving it their best shot, all they need is to pay the license fee to Sony, launch their game and get their little piece from the large sum or money that is moving around. They let probability work for them. As long as they sell some copies, say 50,000, that's good enough. For an average of $25 bucks a piece that totals up to $1,250,000, a average to low quality game costs around $500,000 to $800,000 to develop, so these guys even make a profit! I rember back in the 80's when Nintendo did two important things, the licence fee was large and they gave each developer only two titles a year on their console. Did this lead to zero bad games? No, but it did lead to many of the francises we enjoy even today, games that influenced and shaped the gaming industry, formed the large developers and set the standards for various genre and styles of gameplay. Capcom for instance had only two shots at Nintendo's machine a year, so they thought that they ought to be great ones, the most known result of their serious effort was MegaMan, who made Capcom, I believe, what it is today and laid the groundwork for the creation of SF2. Today though it takes alot more for developers to make good stuff and it is more scarce because the way the system works now, there are developers who don't give a damn and are just in the industry for the easy profits they can steal. I mean, why do you think there are people out there making some games that when you see them cause you to remain speechless and keep thinking of the phrase "What the hell where they thinking?". I bet it isn't their love and passion to make games.
Maybe I am wrong, anyone have any other thoughts?
Post by: jaz013 on October 23, 2003, 03:45:37 PM
Why they where so neglected with their assigments? Well, they just took the major (Systems Engeniering) because some friend was already one, or the boy/girlfriend was there, or something like that. They don't feel the need for learning, they just looked for stay in the school another semester.
I think the same happends with some developers. They just make games in order to make money. They don't feel joy in the development of entertainment software, therefore they just care the game is playable and dispacht it to stores (please insert Tomb RaIder reference). Or maybe they just don't figure out how to make the concept work.
I know developing any software project is hard, but if it is all you make during the day, and i mean, that's your work, then you should put all your energy in it and try to make it remarkable. If i some day get to work the videogame industry, i know i will.
It's sad. I still remember those old good games in the NES, SNES and some in the GENESIS (wich i didn't get to play much), but the games i like from the current and past generation are a lot less. A game developer should aim to make players remember the first time they play his game, even an small part of it.
Post by: joshnickerson on October 23, 2003, 04:29:51 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on October 23, 2003, 04:33:31 PM
Post by: The Omen on October 23, 2003, 04:40:23 PM
Post by: nolimit19 on October 23, 2003, 06:46:06 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Yuji Miyamoto My ps2 sits in front of me gathering dust and acting as a stand for my Dreamcast.
harsh...and i think the reason the cube doesnt get certain games like celebrity death match is becaue they know the game sucks and they know they wont sell anything. the ps2 base has 5 times as many people....this means 5 times the amout of stupids....so they can get away with putting out crap. its as simple as that.
Post by: KDR_11k on October 23, 2003, 08:19:47 PM
Hell, how many neglected great titles were there on GC? Compared to how many on the PS2?
Post by: cml on October 23, 2003, 09:00:16 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
The PS2 has not only more owners, but more games as well. That means it's easier for a game to drown on the platform. Let's say a publisher releases a CRPG with no really special aspects, maybe a Final Fantasy clone. The game might do everything better than its pals, but if its released on the PS2 it will drown in the flood of games. In comparison, if it was released on the GC which lacks in this genre, it might suddently sell half a million simply because there is no competition. Same holds true for FPS/RTS games on the PC.
Hell, how many neglected great titles were there on GC? Compared to how many on the PS2?
Care to name an example where this happened? While there is certainly some common sense in your logic, in reality things just don't work that way. FFX has sold over 5 million copies on PS2. Now certainly some of those people would be gamers who only play Final Fantasy, but at the same time there would be a lot of RPG gamers amongst that 5+ million. A 'Final Fantasy close' is much more likely to sell more units on the PS2, which has a large userbase comprising of many RPG fans, than it is on GameCube, which has a smaller userbase that is generally only interested in 1st party Nintendo product.
While I haven't played it, Skies of Arcadia has got quite solid reviews, but failed to sell well on GameCube. I've no doubt it would have done much better on PS2.
Chris.
Post by: akdaman1 on October 23, 2003, 09:54:28 PM
Post by: mr_tibbs on October 24, 2003, 03:40:51 AM
Gamecube games under 50,000 = 116, whilst games under 200,000 = 186
Number of gamecube games = 243 = 76% under 200,000 units
Number of PS2 Games = 529 = 63% under 200,000 units
Number of Xbox games = 275 = 78% under 200,000 units
Please note that these figures are only for America ( June NPD figures). Since June there have certainly been more games released on PS2 and Xbox than on the cube, however I have not taken those tallies into account because I haven’t got sales figures for them anyway.
Also of note:
Million Sellers (America only – June figures)
Gamecube million sellers = 3, currently 4
PS2 million sellers = 24 = current
Xbox = 2, currently 3
It is a fact that all three consoles have less than expected sales figures and my thread was not to start any flame wars but rather it was directed at the comments of certain fanboys and certain websites who continually state “Aw, gee, if that game was released on Playstation or Xbox it would sell millions”. It was also as Raising_Hell so adequately described directed to the apathy of so many game developers and to a larger extent the wisdom of many of the games publishers, who, from what I can see, are completely oblivious to certain fundamentals in a games ability to sell, or what indeed, actually makes a good game. If a game is substandard or mediocre they are not going to admit to that and once that game is released the Gamecube has to bear the brunt of the developers laziness and sloppiness.( sloppy ports etc.) Then of course, the publisher blames the Cube’s demise and so we see more and more games not being released on the Cube. Yet I still stick to my original statement. If the same game is released on PS2 and Gamecube and the PS2 version with a 14 million more userbase can only sell less than 200,000 copies, how the hell can the Cube be expected to sell the same. Yet that is exactly what the publishers are expecting!. If it doesn’t it’s out the door. There are examples of games which just defy logic and one such case is Soul Calibur ll. Now here is a case of the Cube outselling the two other consoles, but if I were Namco, I would be asking, “Who in God’s name has bought these 18 million PS2’s”. Surely Namco would be entitled to think that sales on that system would have to be far greater. So much for the theory, “Let’s release it on the PS2, it’ll sell better”. So much for the theory “If they released it on the Playstaion or the xbox, it’ll sell millions”. The truth is not many games (this generation) achieve the million status and sometimes when they do, you have to ask,”Why ?”
Post by: Mario on October 24, 2003, 06:14:48 AM
Quote
While I haven't played it, Skies of Arcadia has got quite solid reviews, but failed to sell well on GameCube. I've no doubt it would have done much better on PS2.
Skies of Arcadia has the Sega curse on it, "Though shall not sell well".
I have a hard time believing how big the PS2's userbase is, considering its games dont sell that well. Unless most people buy it for the DVD playback and just rent games.
Post by: Ian Sane on October 24, 2003, 07:15:12 AM
I really doubt Skies of Arcadia would have sold much better on the PS2. First of all original RPGs don't sell that great in America. Second of all the game received virtually no advertising whatsoever so it was doomed to cult status. I see several games sell poorly on the Cube because of crappy or no advertising and then the third party gets mad at Nintendo as if it's their fault or something.
I can understand the logic of third parties thinking a game will sell better on the PS2. The PS2 userbase just smokes the Cube's in size. However it doesn't make sense where this "it will sell better on Xbox" thinking comes from. The Xbox is not really any better off then the Cube and Japanese Xbox games completely bomb. The way so many games are released on both the PS2 and Xbox but not the Cube you would think that the Xbox was neck and neck with the PS2 which is not the case. Not even close.
One thing that does bug me though is when developers make either a really crappy game or release a port up to a year later and then complain that their games don't sell on the Cube. That's THEIR fault and WE get punished for their poor business decision.
If you think about it it's really a sad time in the industry right now since one console is getting the most support because it's easier for crappy games to sell on it and another is getting dropped by third parties because only good games sell on it. Sounds like a recipe for a future industry crash to me.
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on October 25, 2003, 05:28:56 PM
