Post by: Grey Ninja on October 13, 2003, 05:10:51 PM
I of course use Mozilla Firebird, which I find to be both fast and stable.But anyways, to the point of IE:
1) Valve trusted IE as their web browser, but in the end they lost millions of dollars worth of intellectual property.
2) Microsoft shows very little intent to actually fix the glaring problems with their browser, as they feel they have already won the browser war.
3) What's worse is that it almost doesn't seem feasable for Microsoft to fix their browser. The code is an unwieldy mess, and Microsoft would have to put a lot of money into fixing it. Money that they likely don't want to spend.
So what we have here after points 1 to 3 is that Internet Explorer is a very serious security risk on your computer. It's akin to putting your computer in the middle of a park everyday at this point, as there are 31 unpatched security holes that are VERY well documented. Microsoft seems unwilling to fix those holes, leaving the consumer to fend for themselves, with disasterous consequences in some cases.
Not only has IE been left behind in terms of security however, but it's also lacking features:
4) Internet Explorer fails to offer features offered by most of the other browsers.
5) Internet Explorer is generally slower than some of the other browsers, such as Mozilla Firebird.
6) Internet Explorer lacks compatibility with the HTML Standards, making it difficult for web developers to support the most common browser.
Points 4 - 6 basically state that IE is lagging far behind the other browsers in terms of features and compatability. I know that you might think that it doesn't matter, because all the sites you visit work fine in IE, but really, that's only because the sites were engineered specifically to work with IE. Nobody will code a site that adheres to the HTML standard, but doesn't work with IE. Nevertheless, I can provide an example.
This site has been coded in a standard way, yet if you view it with IE, it will show an error. I see no such error when I view it with a more advanced browser, such as Firebird. In fact, there's a little icon in the bottom left corner of my screen in which I can change the style sheet to fit my mood. That basically means that I can change up the style sheet as I please, or not use one at all, drastically changing the appearance of the page.
Now I am sick of talking. You can't help those who refuse to help themselves, so read this, then make up your own mind. If you choose to stick with IE, then there's not much I can do for you. It's your choice of course, but if you still stick with IE, I will never understand that. There's just no reason to. For those who switch, I will help you through the process. For those who have already switched, I'll offer a toast.
Post by: KnowsNothing on October 13, 2003, 05:19:27 PM
But, I veiwed that link you provided with IE and there was no error message and the page loaded just fine. Either you provided the wrong link, I am stupid, or I am magic. Pick one.
Post by: Grey Ninja on October 13, 2003, 05:22:51 PM
Post by: KnowsNothing on October 13, 2003, 05:26:15 PM
Post by: Bloodworth on October 13, 2003, 05:28:50 PM
Post by: Bloodworth on October 13, 2003, 05:38:52 PM
Post by: Sirmorphix on October 13, 2003, 05:39:59 PM
I've never had a problem with IE and prefer its "less" features. I don't really like tabbed browsing and most of the features highlighted on the Firebird features page are not that incredible. Windows can remember when you've filled in web forms and deals with favourites just fine. As for pop ups, yeah, they're annoying, but I can deal with them. And because web sites program to be compatible with IE, there is pretty much never an issue with its non compliancy with HTML standards. But until things like xhtml become standards (probably never at this rate) I see little reason to switch over to any other browser as most others just other gimmicky features or features that can be installed in IE with little effort.
I understand your frustrations though, as someone who is often frustrated with a particularily popular product. For years I couldn't figure out why people would use a shell like explorer when something as awesome as Litestep was around. But I've just come to accept it as how it's going to be. Good luck on your quest to spread the love for Mozilla though, as my reasons for not switching are purely my own. I'm sure that are at least a few users on these boards who would enjoy what it has to offer.
Edit: For spelling. Ugh.
Post by: Grey Ninja on October 13, 2003, 05:40:48 PM
EDIT: Sirmorphix, Firebird behaves almost exactly like IE. It wouldn't kill you to at least try it out, but as I said, you can't help those who won't help themselves.
EDIT2: Bloodworth, I just tried Louie FM again with a fresh install of Firebird, and it's still working fine for me. I really don't know why it would be behaving differently on your machine. Maybe just try again? Sorry, I really don't know what to say.
EDIT3: Bloodworth, what media player are you using to play the audio? I am using Winamp, and it might be the player you use, as I have never tried the RealPlayer plugin in Firebird. (I hate RealMedia)
Post by: mouse_clicker on October 13, 2003, 05:49:29 PM
Post by: Termin8Anakin on October 13, 2003, 05:52:36 PM
Nothing happened.
I downloaded it, extracted it and put it into a folder, ran the bloody huge 7MB file, and......nothing.
It was added onto that window thing of running programs (press ctrl+alt+delete), but no browser window popped up.
Like many of the other headless chickens on the internet, I use IE simply out of habit. Tell me to use Mozilla or any other browsers, screw it. Why should I? Just like why I use Windows. Both are buggy as hell, but I am so used to them, learning something else would be a waste of time. I saw one of my dad's friends Linux-based computer, and geezus christ. Am I supposed to like the fact that it looks like DOS?
Just respect our decision, ok?
My PC needs are similar to my gaming needs. I've been using Windows since i was 5 because it was easy to use. So out of habit, I've been using nothing else, much like how I buy Nintendo out of habit and familiarity.
Microsoft may not have the same care as Nintendo in their products (programs that are made to be obselete or deliberately made buggy so more money is spent on user support), but I don't care.
Post by: Sirmorphix on October 13, 2003, 05:54:08 PM
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but as I said, you can't help those who won't help themselves.
A little high on ourselves with that comment aren't we?
mouse_clicker: I have a bad habit of over exagerating to try and get my point accross. Linux wasn't the best example, agreed.
Post by: Bloodworth on October 13, 2003, 06:00:19 PM
Post by: Grey Ninja on October 13, 2003, 06:02:51 PM
After doing all that, you have a browser that looks, behaves, and feels like IE. But it will still be faster and less buggy.
If you don't do that, you have a browser that functions exactly the same as IE. The menus are easier to navigate, there aren't any unpatched security holes, and you have all the extra features of Firebird at your disposal. There's just no reason not to use it.
Termin8, I frankly have no idea why it wouldn't run for you. Mystic Gohan has that same problem, but I have no explanation why that might be.
Post by: Bloodworth on October 13, 2003, 06:03:02 PM
Post by: KnowsNothing on October 13, 2003, 06:03:09 PM
Post by: Grey Ninja on October 13, 2003, 06:04:38 PM
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Originally posted by: Bloodworth
I'm actually trying to play it with the normal Live 365 player window.
Hmmm... That's only for preferred members isn't it? So I can't test it myself. But it's my guess that Live365 probably uses some ActiveX controls to play the audio stream. Firebird doesn't support that very well at all because a malicious website can do great harm with them. Sorry, but as much as I hate to say this, I think that would be IE only.
Post by: Bloodworth on October 13, 2003, 06:13:11 PM
Post by: Grey Ninja on October 13, 2003, 06:14:26 PM
Post by: oohhboy on October 13, 2003, 06:21:18 PM
Post by: Grey Ninja on October 13, 2003, 06:24:38 PM
Post by: Sirmorphix on October 13, 2003, 07:56:25 PM
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The thing you don't realize is that switching browsers is easy and painless.
No I understand that and never stated that it was difficult.
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If you don't want to block popups, then fine, you can disable that easily enough, and get all the popups you want.
Or I could just keep using IE where I don't have to disable anything.
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You can skin it to look exactly like IE. If you don't like the icons, then use IE's icons.
Or I could just use IE.
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If you want the security holes present in IE, then you can import IE's capabilities into the browser.
You win this point, I can't argue about the security problems with IE.
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After doing all that, you have a browser that looks, behaves, and feels like IE. But it will still be faster and less buggy.
This statement isn't neccesarily true. Especially in terms of loading, IE, because it's a system component loads much faster than Mozilla even with the Quick Launch feature. Between the two of them, Opera still loads much faster.
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If you don't do that, you have a browser that functions exactly the same as IE. The menus are easier to navigate
The fact that you feel the menus are easier to navigate is really your opinion not a fact.
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there aren't any unpatched security holes, and you have all the extra features of Firebird at your disposal.
Features I wouldn't use anyway, or don't want. As for the security holes, well we already covered that. However Mozilla is not bug less, it has bugs, and issues with Font Support, and bugs relating to extensions. And just like IE, it crashes. I don't know about other people who complain about IE crashing all the time, but I have infrequent IE crashes at best.
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There's just no reason not to use it.
There are plenty of reasons not to use it. Just as there are plenty of reasons to use it. Most of all is user preference. I am aware of the short comings and issues of the browser I use, and I still choose to use it because it is the browser that I enjoy the most. I always enjoy being updated about new features or people's opinions on things such as Mozilla vs. IE or Litestep vs. Explorer. But I don't enjoy having people telling me that I am naive because I "refuse to help myself". I made an informed decision to use IE after trying the alternatives.
Post by: Molobert on October 13, 2003, 07:59:57 PM
Post by: Grey Ninja on October 13, 2003, 08:01:41 PM
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This statement isn't neccesarily true. Especially in terms of loading, IE, because it's a system component loads much faster than Mozilla even with the Quick Launch feature. Between the two of them, Opera still loads much faster.
Firebird loads in about half the time as IE for me, and it's not even a system component.
Also, I should mention that Mozilla Firebird doesn't have a quick launch feature. You are thinking of Mozilla, which is a different browser (but the basis for Firebird). Firebird is basically a stripped down version of the browser component of Mozilla. The plan for the future is to seperate all of Mozilla's features into two main components, Being Firebird (browser), and Thunderbird (mail), and have the rest as extensions. In this way, speed and stability aren't compromised for features. Use what you need, scrap the rest.Quote
There are plenty of reasons not to use it. Just as there are plenty of reasons to use it. Most of all is user preference. I am aware of the short comings and issues of the browser I use, and I still choose to use it because it is the browser that I enjoy the most. I always enjoy being updated about new features or people's opinions on things such as Mozilla vs. IE or Litestep vs. Explorer. But I don't enjoy having people telling me that I am naive because I "refuse to help myself". I made an informed decision to use IE after trying the alternatives.
Fair enough. But the reason why you would be using IE instead of Firebird still eludes me. Do you care to explain? As far as I know, the two browsers are nearly identical in terms of usage.
Post by: Shift Key on October 13, 2003, 09:07:18 PM
As for the graphics, this area of Linux is improving in leaps and bounds.
I could write a fair amount about how much Linux has improved, and how/where/why it is a better OS than Windows, but you guys can look it up.
I plan to make a Linux server for my next computer project. Any suggestions for what kind of Linux I should run? A friend of mine suggested Sorcerer Linux, but I'm open to other suggestions.
Sorry to deviate from the topic, but I might as well continue a debate of some sort.
And as for the IE/rest of them debate, Sirmorphix has a right to continue to use IE. Despite all of the known and unknown problems with it.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. It just depends on how much damage you can tolerate.
Post by: KDR_11k on October 13, 2003, 11:25:17 PM
Sure, alternative Browsers also have bugs, but those usually get fixed in no time. And hackers usually "support" only the most common system (Windows, IE, OE, etc). How many Linux virii have you ever heard of?
As an Opera user I have learned to hate IE. There was a time I thought it was sufficient, but once you taste blood you cannot go back. IE feels sluggish and unreliable. How many times have you read "I wrote a long rant but lost it"? In Opera I can press back and the text is still there. I often use that to go between reply-form and the actual thread to read things up. "Continue saved session" is also a very good feature. Reading an article? Want do do something else and continue reading later? Just close the browser and when you open it the page is still there. That also works when the browser crashes (rare). Also, a crashing 3rd party browser won't take Explorer with it.
Post by: PIAC on October 13, 2003, 11:35:04 PM
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Originally posted by: Bloodworth
Well, when I try to listen to Louie FM, it gets all wacky and keeps closing and opening the same window -- even when I turn off the Pop Up Blocker.
how did you get that to fix? im running firebird (saw the light around the time when grey ninja started going on about it
) and for some reason today louie fm/live365 kept shutting the little window that pops up when you click the green 'play' button on the main louie FM page, oddly enough it was working the other couple of times previous to today :\
Post by: nitsu niflheim on October 14, 2003, 03:51:50 AM
Post by: Termin8Anakin on October 14, 2003, 04:01:26 AM
a fellow user of IE who doesn't want to switch!
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on October 14, 2003, 06:46:09 AM
Post by: Bloodworth on October 14, 2003, 06:54:50 AM
Post by: ghostVi on October 14, 2003, 07:15:49 AM
* Ctrl+Z! You know what that one does? It's Undo, but no, not just stupid IE text box undo, it actually reopens your accidentally closed pages
until you start using that you won't know how good it is.* Spatial keyboard navigation. You won't touch the mouse anymore, you won't need it
One can finally traverse the links and forms of a page using the 4 arrow keys, it's instantly became of my favourite features of this browser.* An old one IE won't ever have : open a link in the background. What do you do seeing a page with lot's of links (i.e. images etc.) you want to visit? Start clicking and hitting back/alt-tab. Well in Opera you can just put them loading in the background, one by one, with a single click, and at the time one starts looking at the first link it's already loaded (Yes this browser IS fast.)
* Best ever email client (called M2). Won't start enumerating features here.
And that's just off the top of my head, if you won't more I'll tell you all
Hope this makes some of you ppl consider trying the latest and greatest.Cheers,
kfet
Post by: ghostVi on October 14, 2003, 07:22:49 AM
Post by: Jdub03 on October 14, 2003, 07:43:29 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on October 14, 2003, 08:30:06 AM
A thing Opera definitely has over IE is downloads starting when you click the link, not when you chose the destination. It asks you where to put the file and while you're confirming the settings it's already downloading in the background. Also tab-switching with right-mouse+mousewheel and forward /backward with hold left, rightclick and hold right, click left is something I love.
Post by: nitsu niflheim on October 14, 2003, 09:05:08 AM
I don't like using the arrow keys to navigate. I use the tab key because I use it in nearly every program I have on my computer at home and at work. Habit. And to navigate I use a mouse and scroll wheel. Shocking I know.
MSN starts downloading when you click on something, all my downloads go to a certain place then into a my downloads folder. If I am using just plain old IE I have to select the destination. Also with MSN I don't get a small pop up, but a regular browser that also has all the other files I have downloaded with there history.
MSN also keeps track of my favorties. I can bookmark a page while at work and then when I get home, just open my favorites and it will be there. I like that, with IE all that stuff stayed just on the computer you were using at the time and I would have to email the page to myself if I didn't think I would remember the link.
Post by: vudu on October 14, 2003, 09:12:06 AM
Post by: thecubedcanuck on October 14, 2003, 09:15:10 AM
oh well.
Post by: BiLdItUp1 on October 14, 2003, 09:29:58 AM
Post by: kennyb27 on October 14, 2003, 10:39:24 AM
Right now, I'm sitting at my computer. There are some 5 other usernames on it (for my siblings and parents). If I were to download Firebird would it only be used on my username. I ask because my stepbrother is a "Don't ever change anything that is Microsoft's because Microsoft is god and I am a Microsoft Certified Professional"-type person. I don't feel like having him chop my head in two pieces but I would prefer to try something that is NOT IE. Any help would be appreciated.
Post by: thecubedcanuck on October 14, 2003, 11:48:19 AM
One question however, do I need a firewall with it? if so, which one would be best?
Post by: KnowsNothing on October 14, 2003, 11:52:39 AM
But a horrible thought just crossed my mind....if the computers are linked, would getting a virus on one cause all of the computers to get the virus?
I hope the answer is no, but I have a feeling that the answer might be yes.
even if the answer is yes, I just won't tell my parents. But I'd still like to know...
Post by: Plugabugz on October 14, 2003, 12:16:07 PM
Post by: KnowsNothing on October 14, 2003, 12:18:32 PM
I guess I'll do that then. Thanks for relpying.
Post by: Grey Ninja on October 14, 2003, 02:51:52 PM
Anyways, I just think I should tell a story here for the stubborn IE users among us.
Valve is the name of the developer that makes Half Life, which is an immensly popular FPS game for PC. They thought the same as you guys that one browser is the same as another, and if it's not broke, why fix it? The source code for their unreleased game, Half Life 2 was recently leaked onto the internet. They spent a week looking for the breach in their firewall that allowed the hackers inside their network.
What they found was that Microsoft allowed several critical security holes to go unpatched for months, and that allowed the hackers to install keystroke logs on a few of their computers through holes in Internet Explorer. With access to usernames and passwords, they were eventually able to download the source code for Half Life 2.
This isn't something that's simply a "matter of preference". I bet you all got the Win XP patch a while ago that made your PC restart every 5 minutes didn't you? What if I told you that there are security holes in IE that are almost as bad that REMAIN UNPATCHED? It's gotten to the point that there's a class action lawsuit against Microsoft for failing to secure software (IE) that is vital to the operation of government and business.
Post by: KnowsNothing on October 14, 2003, 03:20:57 PM
Well, actually, there is no "lock the toolbar option" for me (i'm still using ME, haven't gotten around to switching). My brother figured it out, but I'll thank you anyway.
*dances with GIR*
EDIT: my biggest mistake ever!!! This belong in some other thread. If you see nitsu, send him in this direction.
*is embarrassed*
Post by: Berny on October 14, 2003, 03:26:47 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on October 14, 2003, 03:33:02 PM
Thankfully I don't have anything important on my laptop...
Post by: Grey Ninja on October 14, 2003, 04:07:13 PM
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I don't really care for it, but it lets me run through my cable without me having to do much anything
As does any other browser.
I set up Firebird to run on my computer at work too without much difficulty. I just had to copy over the proxy settings from IE, and I was good to go. Our computers at work are supposed to be running only MS products, but Firebird is small and easy enough to install that I was able to sneak it on. I don't really have a need for many of Firebird's features at work, and of course the security issues wouldn't bother me, but I like the debugging aspects of Firebird better. The Javascript console is much more complete in Firebird I find. Since I am a web developer, that's very useful for me.Quote
Sorry, to join the party late, but Grey Ninja, if it makes you feel any better, you converted me to Mozilla a few months ago. I only touch IE when I need to get something off my *OLD* favorites. Once they are all one Mozilla, I will have no need for it. And I will find a way to incinerate it. I will find a way...
I'm glad that you like it as much as I.
But I think I should probably mention that Firebird automatically creates a bookmark folder for you with your imported IE bookmarks. It did for me way back when anyways. I haven't touched IE for so long that I think I deleted it on my computer, or I would show you a screenshot.
Post by: Bill Aurion on October 14, 2003, 04:16:03 PM
Post by: Sirmorphix on October 14, 2003, 07:26:58 PM
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What they found was that Microsoft allowed several critical security holes to go unpatched for months, and that allowed the hackers to install keystroke logs on a few of their computers through holes in Internet Explorer.
I've been following this quite closely, as an avid HL fan. But as far as I know the hackers got in exploiting issues with Outlook. Do you have a link about the IE problem? (On another note, I spent 2 grand on a new PC built from the ground up for HL2, so it better come out this Christmas, or else it will be a dark day for all)
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This isn't something that's simply a "matter of preference".
Yes it is. There are known security issues with Windows, and there are plenty of alternatives to windows, but I still choose to use it. Just like IE, which has known problems, I choose to use it. It is a matter of prefrerence. Just because it has security flaws doesn't mean that there is no longer a choice. IE isn't perfect, but neither is any other browser.
KnowsNothing: Yankees! The curse of the Babe must live on! I'm not really into baseball, but ever since I learned about the curse of the Babe, I've always wanted to see it live on. There aren't enough popular curses these days. I just want to see the losing streak of the Cubs and BoSox go on.
Post by: Mario on October 14, 2003, 07:38:35 PM
.
Post by: Grey Ninja on October 14, 2003, 08:01:42 PM
Sirmorphix, I am sure that Firebird does have security holes, but there are most certainly not 31 well documented ones. As far as the link to the news about Valve, it was linked in my first post. I could repost it, but I am not about to get the link for you just to save you some time.
Short of it is:
Internet Explorer: Standard Browser, 31 unpatched holes.
Mozilla Firebird: Standard Browser, No known security flaws, extra features.
I still have yet to hear from you exactly why you prefer to give hackers easy access to your PC.
And Half Life 2 has been delayed till next year due to the code theft. You can thank IE. (Your browser of choice)
Post by: KDR_11k on October 14, 2003, 09:42:00 PM
Post by: thecubedcanuck on October 15, 2003, 02:21:38 AM
Post by: Sirmorphix on October 15, 2003, 07:53:18 AM
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it was linked in my first post. I could repost it, but I am not about to get the link for you just to save you some time
Which part of that sentence was necessary and which part wasn’t? I’m very sorry that I didn’t follow your link on your first post and that I did not realize it was there. You could’ve saved yourself some time, and just said the link was in your first post. Instead, you had to be a jerk about it.
Thank you KDR_11K, for responding with some information without having to be pretentious. I appreciate it.
Here is the short of it, Internet Explorer performs all the functions I need of it. It is fast and stable for me. I do not care to have any of the extra features offered by your browser. I am not concerned about the security flaws enough to warrant switching over to another browser.
As for the HL2 delay, I have the hacker to thank. It wasn’t like IE was emailing the source code to who ever wanted it.
I spent about 5 minutes on the Mozilla site, and found tones of references to known security problems with it.
I don’t think I’ve ever debated with someone who gets so self righteous about their browser that they take personal offence to someone else’s opinion. I’m not going to waste any more of my time on this. I've never been rude to you in any of my posts or attempted to insult your intelligence, I expected at least that much from you.
Post by: KnowsNothing on October 15, 2003, 10:47:52 AM
(but you can keep your eyelids. I guess I'm just that kind of guy.
)
Post by: Berny on October 15, 2003, 11:14:08 AM
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Originally posted by: Grey Ninja
But I think I should probably mention that Firebird automatically creates a bookmark folder for you with your imported IE bookmarks.
Yeah, I noticed that but it only decided to import the favorites that came with IE: Hardware Developsers, Software Developers, Multimedia. That sorta stuff. In other words, it is of little use to me. That's ok. I don't have TOO many favorites on IE left.
AGH! My computer has decided to suck. Does anyone know why my computer would have trouble starting PPP? Whenever I log on to the net for the first time every day, it just STOPS when it says "Starting PPP". Seriously, what the hell?
EDIT: One last question, Grey Ninja. How did you get a title under your name?
Post by: The Dark Tower on October 15, 2003, 02:00:52 PM
...I mean hacking?
Post by: Uglydot on October 15, 2003, 04:27:16 PM
Post by: Grey Ninja on October 15, 2003, 04:47:17 PM
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Originally posted by: Berny
EDIT: One last question, Grey Ninja. How did you get a title under your name?
I have no idea what PPP is to tell you the truth.
As for my title, I am confoosed. It says PGC Forum User, just like everyone else doesn't it? If it didn't, what did it say?
Dark Tower, I am a CS Major, and I am currently holding a job as a web developer. That probably gives me the knowledge to crack someone else's computer, as I am familiar with methods in doing so (it comes with the job), but I have never actively sought out that information. I am a peaceful computer geek.
Sirmorphix, it just makes no sense to me why anyone would choose IE over the superior competition. Forgive me for being blunt with you, but I am jsut a little irked that you just tell me it's a matter of preference without saying anything else. If there's anything that I hate, it's someone who doesn't listen to what I say when arguing, and people who just say that I am wrong without backing themselves up. You speak of switching like it's something that involves 3 hours of studying documentation and learning all sorts of new stuff with the new browser, when in reality it takes all of 2 minutes, and you scarcely notice the difference at first.
Post by: KnowsNothing on October 15, 2003, 04:49:47 PM
And I am completely serious. I've already mentioned it in PGC discussion.
Post by: Grey Ninja on October 15, 2003, 04:57:27 PM
Post by: KnowsNothing on October 15, 2003, 04:57:57 PM
Post by: Bloodworth on October 15, 2003, 06:03:40 PM
Post by: thecubedcanuck on October 16, 2003, 01:33:50 AM
TIA
Post by: PIAC on October 16, 2003, 03:17:30 AM
Post by: Pale on October 16, 2003, 04:30:09 AM
All of the browsers are competing for what they feel is the best way to interpret some of the simplest features in html. For example go to my site (PaleHour in my sig) in both ie and firebird. Now, one of the glaring things that jumps out is the divide that is floating in the middle of nowhere in mozilla. I'm gonna be removing that soon now that I realize how it reacts in mozilla. But other than that, I am very proud of my news script. It is written from scratch and very functional with a great forum like response feature. Notice how the picture is off center in mozilla and perfectly fine in ie? This is just stupid. Each browser is interpreting the location differently. I could easily change it to be centered in mozilla and not in ie, but what it comes down to is, as a web developer, i want it to look the best for the most people. Therefore the site is optimized for IE, though I do everything in my power to make it look nice everywhere, there are just too many damn things to test. That is why I use IE as my primary browser, because most sites are optimized as such.
Post by: thecubedcanuck on October 16, 2003, 04:55:44 AM
your site loads exactly the same way for me with either firebird or IE.
Post by: Pale on October 16, 2003, 05:18:15 AM
Post by: ghostVi on October 16, 2003, 05:45:05 AM
Even better - start using XHTML instead.
cheers!
Post by: Fammy2000 on October 16, 2003, 05:46:15 AM
As a web developer, I find if I develop to standards, my pages work in IE and Mozilla (and even Opera).
As a web developer, I find if I developer for IE, my pages rarely work correctly in Mozilla (and Opera).
Moral of my story: develop for standards. It's what the future is based on. If you code for IE only, then your page will work for IE only, and you cut out that many people. Same sorta goes for flash-only websites, but that's another thread.
And Grey Ninja forgot the second best feature of Mozilla/Firebird after pop-up blocking: ad blocking. Through the use of image blocking (right click on an ad, and if the server is something like ads.server.com, block it) and this CSS file on FloppyMoose.com, I rarely see an ad.
For the people that complain that Firebird doesn't display a certain page correctly, it's likely the fault of the developer who didn't spend the time to test it on other browsers.
Go ahead and stay with IE folks. When MS doesn't deliver an update and your browser is as functional as Netscape 4 is today, ha. I laugh at you. =)
If Firebird isn't your thing, check out Opera.
Post by: Gibdo Master on October 17, 2003, 04:57:30 PM
Secondly is there anyway to make links that would normally open up in a new window open up in a tab instead? This is a nice little thing that Avant Browser does by default and while I didn't like it at first I soon realized it was much easier to deal with a tab being opened rather than a second window. I know there's an extension that forces links that would normally open in a second open in the first window instead but that's not what I want.
One last question is how exactly do you properly install the Java plug in for Firebird? I've downloaded and installed it but I don't think it went where it was supposed to because a lot of sites that use Java don't work properly. Oddly a lot of others do.
That's all I can think of for now.
Post by: DarkSloth on October 17, 2003, 05:49:00 PM
Anyways, I use Opera. I really have no need to use IE anymore. With the pop up blocker i feel the love of the internet, instead of the vicious hate. The only reason i sometimes need to use IE is when flash is involved.
Regarding the web developing problems. When following the standards i never see any problems. Sure, sometimes tables look different, but i hardly use tables anyways. I think adopting the standards is probably the best thing i ever did for my website. It also made me feel more of a man. From the stats i get from my website, around 96% of people use IE. Thats around the same number that i've seen everywhere else. Thats pretty depressing.
Post by: PIAC on October 17, 2003, 06:01:38 PM
2) if you have a third mouse button (ie scroll wheel that clicks) press that on a link and it opens in a tab
3) not sure of that either, some work for me some dont..
Post by: Gibdo Master on October 17, 2003, 06:29:35 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: PIAC
2) if you have a third mouse button (ie scroll wheel that clicks) press that on a link and it opens in a tab
Okay, I should have elaborated on that one more. There are some links that you can't do the mouse wheel click thing to get the link to open in a tab. As an example go to www.metallica.com. When the page loads you should see a list of links at the top that read like this: News, Media, Band, Fanzone, Tour, Merchandise, Extras, Help. Move the mouse over one of those and a sub category will pop up. Try clicking your mouse wheel on one of the subcategories and it won't do anything. In Avant it automatically opens any link that would normally open in a second window in a tab instead. That's what I want.
Post by: Grey Ninja on October 17, 2003, 06:35:27 PM
2) Middle Mouse button.
3) I was not aware that this was a problem, as my Sun Java Console works perfectly for me. But you could try this O suppose.
Dark Sloth, Mozilla is still around, and Firebird is built upon the Mozilla core, but it's a different thing altogether. In it's early life, Mozilla Firebird was known as Phoenix, but due to copyright problems and changes to Mozilla's long term plans changed the name to Mozilla Firebird. The plan is to eventually replace Mozilla's browser with Firebird when firebird comes of age. (1.0)
And while IE chooses to follow their own standard, Opera and Mozilla follow the standards laid out by the W3C. That's not a bad thing.
Post by: Gibdo Master on October 17, 2003, 07:59:56 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Grey Ninja
1) links turn purple when you have visited them... but you could try this
Well, believe me when I say that links I have visited never are highlighted. I downloaded that extension and it didn't even work. I really didn't like it anyway becuase you are supposed to manually highlight the link yourself but like I said it didn't work.
Post by: Gibdo Master on October 17, 2003, 08:09:02 PM
Post by: Grey Ninja on October 17, 2003, 09:27:01 PM
Post by: Gibdo Master on October 19, 2003, 01:29:06 PM
My fourth question is is there anyway to make the icons in the main toolbar smaller. I already have "Use Small Icons" selected but it's still to big.
Post by: thecubedcanuck on October 19, 2003, 01:52:21 PM
Any thoughts?
Post by: Grey Ninja on October 19, 2003, 02:09:19 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Gibdo Master
My fourth question is is there anyway to make the icons in the main toolbar smaller. I already have "Use Small Icons" selected but it's still to big.
Glad to hear you are enjoying it.
As far as the main icons go... I am not really sure. I like a nice sized icon myself, but you can try some other themes if you want. You can find them here. Some of them are ridiculously small, but I like the default myself.
Post by: vudu on December 03, 2003, 05:44:14 PM
Post by: Ocarina Blue on December 04, 2003, 12:39:28 AM
Post by: vudu on December 04, 2003, 05:04:55 AM
Post by: Grey Ninja on December 04, 2003, 01:40:50 PM
You can try some of these extensions. I really don't use tabbed browsing much, and when I do, I middle click, so I only installed Tabrowser Preferences, which allows the user the option to select whether links that open in a new window open in a tab or not. Links that are set to open in the current window will still open in the current window though. I am not sure if that's what you wanted or not.
Post by: Anbesol on December 04, 2003, 04:36:01 PM
Post by: ThePerm on December 04, 2003, 04:36:47 PM
oh and i figured otu the problem iwth my icon....its because i have visual c++
Post by: Grey Ninja on December 04, 2003, 04:38:03 PM
Good enough answer for you?
ThePerm, I have Visual Studio 6 installed right now, and when I get enough space on my hard drive, I will be installing Visual Studio .NET 2003. I don't have any problems with my icons.
But I am glad that you fixed that anyways.
Post by: Berto2K on December 04, 2003, 09:57:05 PM
EDIT: Is there a way to turn off quick reply?
Post by: vudu on December 05, 2003, 04:11:19 AM
i guess it doesn't effect anything that much, but i find it ironic that this thread has gone on for 5 pages on a forum for a website that doesn't work properly with firebird.
Post by: Minsc on December 05, 2003, 07:22:53 AM
Up until a few weeks ago I have stuck with Netscape (even the ultra buggy netscape 6). Netscape 7 was great, tabbed browsing and pop-up blocking is something I can no longer live without. On thing I can't understand is how people wouldn't like tabbed browsing. There is nothing I hate more than having my taskbar cluttered with windows. With tabbed browsing I can cleanly have 20 screenshots open in one window. Currently I'm using Mozzila 1.5. One day I decided to install it since it should be less buggy than Netscape (it's built on the Mozilla code right?).What differences are there between Mozilla and Mozilla Firebird? I'm sure it was said already but there's too much reading to sort though.
Post by: Uglydot on December 05, 2003, 10:39:10 AM
Post by: nolimit19 on December 05, 2003, 11:52:16 AM
Post by: Minsc on December 05, 2003, 12:11:53 PM
Edit: Alright, I've played around with it for a bit and I'm impressed. One thing that always bugged me on Netscape and Mozilla was loading the IGN Boards. The browser would always freeze for a few seconds, this is now gone with firebird.
Is there a way to import my bookmarks from Mozilla?
Post by: nolimit19 on December 05, 2003, 12:55:36 PM
Post by: Berny on December 05, 2003, 01:21:11 PM
Glad to hear you like Mozilla. I am a personal fan of it myself. As for all of you "other folk" who are still using IE...*sigh* Just stop.
Post by: Grey Ninja on December 05, 2003, 01:49:11 PM
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Okay, so after many times hearing it on tv and from others here, I decided togive it a try. I like the tabbed browsing, always thought that was cool. One question I have that I noticed when browsing the preferences. Where you can set the homepage, it says "Clicking the Home button takes you to this page or group of pages". Does this mean that it will open a set of say 5 sites at once when I click on the home button? And will they open in different tabs. It would make it really easy to open my game sites right away. Also, how would I set it up to load all those sites. Would it be in a file? or just enter them all inline there in the text box?
Yes, you can set up multiple home pages if you wish. I believe that using the button when you have multiple tabs open will set each of the pages to open whenever you hit home. I prefer a single home page myself. I use that feature though by setting aside folders of similarly themed items in my bookmarks. I have a folder labelled "Dailies" that I can right click on, then select "Open in Tabs" to open up all bookmarks in the folder in tabs. I also do the same with a folder labelled "Porn", and so forth.
On the quick subject of porn, Firebird makes it easy to get hentai comics, or just to view all pictures in a gallery too. That's primarilly where I used tabbed browsing. Middle clicking on each link in a hentai comic's index will open up each scan in a new tab, then you can go through each one, saving as you go. For free porn galleries, there is an extension where you can just middle click on a picture, and advance forward and backward through the gallery without having to go back to the main index. It's also a good way of finding pics that aren't in the index too.
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EDIT: Is there a way to turn off quick reply?
If you are talking about the forums, I don't think so. I haven't seen an option for it, but I have never looked for one either. I find it useful.
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okay grey, here's another problem i'm having with firebird...pgc doesn't show up correctly. the formatting in the news posts is off. instead of ending at the vertical line, the text runs clear to the end of the window. this causes the thin vertical line that would normally end where the text ends to run through the entire length of the post.
i guess it doesn't effect anything that much, but i find it ironic that this thread has gone on for 5 pages on a forum for a website that doesn't work properly with firebird.
Just opened up IE to see if I could tell what you were talking about. After closing all the popups and flash ads and stuff, I got to a news story, and compared the two side by side. The two browsers rendered things a little differently, but I didn't see anything like what you might have been talking about. Sorry. Can you give me a screenshot? I probably can't help much, as it's likely a coding problem with the site, but I would be able to pinpoint what's causing it.
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What differences are there between Mozilla and Mozilla Firebird? I'm sure it was said already but there's too much reading to sort though.
Nothing. Mozilla is the same as Firebird at the core. The difference is that while Mozilla comes with a big suite of applications, Firebird is JUST the browser. It's the same as Mozilla, but it's been stripped of all the excess features. Firebird is scheduled to eventually replace the Mozilla browser when it comes of age (sometime next year), as it's obviously the better product (as stated by the Mozilla developers).
The intention is to use Firebird as the browser, and Thunderbird as the mail component. Everything else that you have enabled by default in Mozilla will be available via extensions in Firebird/Thunderbird.
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Develop using the standards. My site works fine in both. Been using Firebird since it was phoenix, the naples release. Things have gotten much better.
My site works fine in everything but IE, and is completely coded according to standards. That gives me a great deal of pleasure.
I have been using Firebird since Phoenix 0.4 Quote
should i completely delete ie now that i have this thing??? by the way, this this i way better then ie. i admit i dont know anything about computers, but ie was just wasnt working.
Not a good plan. IE is integrated directly into your operating system, so there is simply no way of removing it and still being able to boot Windows. Besides, there are likely to be some sites that won't work in anything but IE. There aren't very many at all, but one of note is Windows Update. IE is unsafe to run, and generally unpleasant to use, so I wouldn't use it much if I were you, but keep it around, just in case.
In case you are wondering, the main reason some sites (such as Windows Update) don't work in Firebird is because it doesn't support ActiveX or VBScript. These are two MS technologies which have the ability to screw around with your computer in ways you would rather not know. They are the root cause of many of IE's biggest vulnerabilities, and ActiveX in particular is inheritantly unsafe.
Quote
Alright, I've played around with it for a bit and I'm impressed. One thing that always bugged me on Netscape and Mozilla was loading the IGN Boards. The browser would always freeze for a few seconds, this is now gone with firebird.
Is there a way to import my bookmarks from Mozilla?
The freeze upon loading a page was always one of my biggest gripes about Gekko based browsers. Phoenix/Firebird was the first non-IE browser I used since Netscape 4, and I have to admit that I was seriously shocked that not only did it not freeze upon loading a new page, but it ran circles around IE.
And, yes, you can import your mozilla/netscape bookmarks
Post by: Minsc on December 05, 2003, 02:05:41 PM
Edit: About 10 minutes ago I installed the TabScroller extension. Ever since I started using Netscape 7 I wanted a way to easily switch between tabs, now I have it.
Post by: ThePerm on December 05, 2003, 02:12:00 PM
Post by: nolimit19 on December 05, 2003, 02:46:00 PM
Post by: Ghost_of_a_Flea on December 06, 2003, 01:55:12 AM
The only other problem I have is more with the JRE; some Java chats close after about 5 minutes... it happens every time (but that's not a Firebird issue)... HOPEFULLY Sun will get that fixed eventually; everyone who goes to the same chat and uses JRE has the same problems (so I know it's not just me).
Post by: KDR_11k on December 06, 2003, 03:42:43 AM
Post by: Ghost_of_a_Flea on December 06, 2003, 04:20:21 AM
Post by: manunited4eva22 on December 06, 2003, 04:31:15 AM
Post by: Grey Ninja on December 06, 2003, 07:14:16 AM
1) Windows Media Player (Reasonably fast, plays almost anything, doesn't crash, has become bloatware though)
2) Visual Studio (I actually really really like Visual Studio... it's insanely bloated though)
Quote
Originally posted by: Ghost_of_a_Flea
Grey Ninja, quick question... since I went up to Firebird 0.7 I have a "part-time" scrollbar? Half of the time my scrollbar is completely missing, and other times it's there. I haven't really looked for anything on it, just curious to see if you have any ideas.
The only other problem I have is more with the JRE; some Java chats close after about 5 minutes... it happens every time (but that's not a Firebird issue)... HOPEFULLY Sun will get that fixed eventually; everyone who goes to the same chat and uses JRE has the same problems (so I know it's not just me).
The scrollbar shouldn't display if it's not needed. If the page you are viewing is smaller than your screen area, no scrollbars appear. That's about the only thing I can think of that you might be talking about. Never had a problem where I couldn't see everything myself.
Post by: Ghost_of_a_Flea on December 06, 2003, 07:30:34 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Grey Ninja
The scrollbar shouldn't display if it's not needed. If the page you are viewing is smaller than your screen area, no scrollbars appear. That's about the only thing I can think of that you might be talking about. Never had a problem where I couldn't see everything myself.
No, it's in pages where I should have a scroll bar (for instance this thread).
Screen Capture
I couldn't tell you, it's literally 50/50; half of the time I have a scrollbar, and the rest of the time I have to rely on the scroll wheel on my mouse. I'll have to look into it and see if I can find anything out about it.
Post by: Grey Ninja on December 06, 2003, 07:51:10 AM
What build are you using?
Post by: Swordsplay on December 06, 2003, 01:16:42 PM
JK
Post by: Pandas_UNITE on December 06, 2003, 01:23:07 PM
Post by: Swordsplay on December 06, 2003, 01:24:23 PM
ie means for example
Post by: Grey Ninja on December 06, 2003, 08:25:20 PM
And I know that it might be incomprehensible to you... but some acronyms have several meanings that are determined by context. eg, FPS:
Fields Per Second
Frames Per Second
First Person Shooter
Post by: Ghost_of_a_Flea on December 07, 2003, 02:42:25 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Grey Ninja
I don't know.... I thought it might have been your skin, but it isn't. I just got the same skin as you (orbit red right?), and I am having no problems with my scrolling...
What build are you using?
Yeah, I'm using orbit red; I thought it might be the skin so I went back to the default, but it was the same. I did a fresh install with the Windows Installer this time just to see if it'd make any difference and it seems to be working fine now. I'm not sure what it was, but it appears fixed.
Post by: Minsc on December 07, 2003, 04:16:57 AM
Congratulations!
> Microsoft
I went extension crazy lastnight and downloaded a bunch. Just to have them I got the card games, block fall, and minesweeper. For some reason mnesweeper won't appear in the tools menu. Got that are more practical and know I'm going to use.
-TabScroller
-Copy Image
-External Application Buttons
-Things they left out
There are other ones I got too but I'm not sure if I'll ever use them. Still, extensions are fun stuff.
Post by: blackfootsteps on December 11, 2003, 02:46:44 AM
Post by: Procession on December 11, 2003, 03:25:42 AM
Grey Ninja: What distro are you on? Just a curious george
Post by: Grey Ninja on December 11, 2003, 01:29:26 PM
And I use Windows XP Pro at the moment. I am going to try to reinstate my Linux partition this weekend however. (Mandrake 9.2... been a Windows user for FAR too long for anything more hardcore.)
Post by: Minsc on December 11, 2003, 02:39:21 PM
Post by: Grey Ninja on December 11, 2003, 05:52:50 PM
) EDIT:
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031210 Firebird/0.7+ (aebrahim)
ahhh.... good old Aebrahim. The dude never lets me down. I can't really say as that I like the new icon, but everything else seems to be rocking my world.
Post by: manunited4eva22 on December 12, 2003, 11:02:11 AM
Just curious, does anyone know if the apparent problem that messed with both mozilla and IE has been fixed/patched/is factual?
Post by: Grey Ninja on December 12, 2003, 11:28:33 AM
I own an Athlon XP however, and am not capable of executing the SSE2 instruction set. (But I hope to be SSE3 capable come next year...)And sorry... don't really know what problem you are referring to?
