Post by: DrForester on September 25, 2003, 09:14:32 PM
Not much other than saying the big showing will be november 11.
There is only 1 picture, but based on that one picture alone, i can't wait for this game.
Post by: Grey Ninja on September 25, 2003, 09:17:51 PM
Post by: Gup on September 26, 2003, 12:49:26 PM
Post by: rpglover on September 26, 2003, 07:00:08 PM
it could very well be- i love the people in charge of making this game right now- hopefully this will be the return of the good final fantasy games as grey has said- for those who do not know though- the person directing the game and in charge of the production is Yasumi Matsuno- famous for final fantasy tactics and one of my personal favorite games of all time- vagrant story- those are two very good, high quality titles- hopefully he can reenergize this series
Post by: KDR_11k on September 27, 2003, 01:12:44 AM
Post by: Marcus Arillius on September 27, 2003, 04:21:22 AM
The images (drawings) do like very nice though..... I think this is being taken back to the FF2 (america) days. It's making me cream my pants just thinking about it.
Post by: Koopa Troopa on September 27, 2003, 03:09:07 PM
Quote
When are they actually going to show something to back up my words that this might be the first Final Fantasy that hasn't sucked since #6?
Hehehe. As someone else said, the two "heads" of this game have done some pretty cool games, so I have high hopes. Just wish it was coming to GameCube ::sigh::
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 27, 2003, 03:24:45 PM
FFVII- Great!!
FFVIII - hey, what happened?
FFIX - What the hell? This sucks!
FFX - This sucks even worse!
FFX-2 won't be any different...
FFXI is online, so no hope for it
FFXII - I can only pray...
Grey, I am taking your word for it for now...Please will this game be good!
Post by: mouse_clicker on September 27, 2003, 03:42:16 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 27, 2003, 04:13:20 PM
Not to mention FFX has some of the worst character design ever...We have a generic female lead, a Backstreet Boys look-alike, and to top things off, Christina Aguilera! Bah! Cloud, Sephiroth, and Tifa are awesome character designs...
Now to wait 5 years for my FFVII remake
Post by: mouse_clicker on September 27, 2003, 04:31:48 PM
What really pisses me off is your opinion of people who DO like the games. Can't you just be able that were able to find the good in something you didn't, without bashing them for having such a radically different opinion? You're like art critics who look down upon anyone who isn't as "educated" as they are. Get a life.
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 27, 2003, 04:41:26 PM
And giving our opinions of games is what we do here. As for not having a life, welllll...I beg to differ. Just think about. This is what I do with some of my free time. I could just as easily say you have no life for posting complaints about people who complain about games ^_^
Post by: mouse_clicker on September 27, 2003, 04:43:31 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 27, 2003, 04:51:00 PM
....
Woah! Deja vu!
But seriously, I for one criticize the latest FF games in hopes that the next ones will be better. Sadly I think Square knows that they can churn out this stuff and gamers will buy it, no matter what. I want them to put more love into their games and create characters that look decent and not like nickel whores. This worn-out character design applies to many companies. They are just character designers' wet dreams, and it makes me sick. -_-' I never once said that my opinion was fact, did I? No, and I hope you weren't pointing a finger at me. Just because someone gives an opinion doesn't mean they think it's fact. I know a few people who like FFX, and I respect their opinion, but obviously turn down all offers to watch or play the game with them. I honestly think you take issues way too seriously around here mouse_clicker. Just relax. The boards are supposed to be a place where everyone can share opinions and views on different topics, not warzones for flame wars ^_^
Post by: mouse_clicker on September 27, 2003, 05:01:50 PM
Post by: DrForester on September 27, 2003, 05:40:37 PM
Granted I don't think FF7-10 were as good as FF6, but they weren't bad.
FFVII was very new, and DID set the bar for 3D RPG's. Had a nice story, and nice characters.
FFVIII, good game, one of my least favorite FF games, but the game was still fun, Sqaure just tried to do to many things different, and there were falws, but it was nice to play something new.
FFIX, I can't undestand HOW some of you can say this was bad. The game had a fantastic story, and a very strong cast. Not to mention it felt like FF games of old.
FFX, I see FFX as FFVIII, but it fixed nearly all the flaws of FF8. Characters were enjoyable, story was solid, and there was enough to do. Not to mention it had a nice upgrade to the battle system.
As for the poster, i'm looking forward to FFXII quite a bit now. Picture makes me think it's going to feel a bit like FFIX, which would make me happy.
Post by: Gup on September 27, 2003, 05:54:52 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill
FFVI - Great!
FFVII- Great!!
FFVIII - hey, what happened?
FFIX - What the hell? This sucks!
FFX - This sucks even worse!
FFX-2 won't be any different...
FFXI is online, so no hope for it
FFXII - I can only pray...
Grey, I am taking your word for it for now...Please will this game be good!
People these days. . . to go as far as to say some games will suck without first hand experience. Anyways, for all those who thinks the shift from Nintendo to Sony or 2D to 3D games of Final Fantasy sucked, have you ever played FF I-VI.
I - complete garbage, no comments necessary
II - very weak overall in terms of gameplay, sound, and story
III - never played
IV - this was some good stuff. . . for its' time
V - it was okay, the story is weak as hell and the job system is crappy
VI - good stuff, except I'm sure if this were remade with 3D graphics, this would have been a movie-like RPG too like FFX which isn't a bad thing.
Once again, I'd like to point to my sig and say, "your words doesn't represent everyone!" There are some that dislike FF *cough. . . Nintendo fanboys. . .cough*, but there are more who love it.
Post by: Grey Ninja on September 27, 2003, 06:00:36 PM
First though, I must say that I was a little harsh in my first post in this thread. I had a bit to drink, and I was trying to say that FFXII might have the magic of the first 6 games. For the record, I thought that FFVII was a good game, but not the same as its ancestors. Also, I may make mention of the first 6 or 7 games like they were all good, but Final Fantasy 2j is one of the worst in the series. It's to be assumed that I am not talking about it.
Take this picture for example. Some people might very well consider it to be fine art. They might buy a copy and hang it on their wall. Does that make the picture any less crappy? Hell no. But if Leonardo Davinci drew it, then some people might have a very different view of it. It's very possible that some art critics might admit that regardless of who drew it, it's still a piece of crap drawn in MS Paint. All opinions are subjective. But some opinions are just dumb. Thinking that the piece of crap I linked to is anywhere's near the quality of say... the Mona Lisa is just stupidity.
The same is true of Final Fantasy. It's because of our love for the first 7 games that we even care about all this. Seeing one of our most beloved series go straight downhill is not a pleasant thing for us to watch. Mouse Clicker, you are probably too young to remember the older games the way that we do. But it's akin to watching Einstein say that he has already proven himself to be the smartest man ever, so he's just going to go to the bar and drink himself into oblivion. We watched the series get flushed down the toilet, and WORSE, we had to listen to all the people who weren't around for the older games tell us that the new games are just as good. That makes a man bitter.
I could go on for days on this topic, but I think I will save that for a future post. It's my hope that you are able to see this from our point of view. If not, I will fight some more. I just don't like being called stuck up for being older than you, and being able to see the OBVIOUS decline of the franchise.
EDIT: It took me an hour to write that post, since I was doing other stuff as well at the time.
Quote
I think most the people who bash FF7-X are the Nintendo fanboys who were to stuborn to buy a PSX and play them.
Give me a break. I own 2 copies of FF7, and I own a copy of FF8. I have played FF9 enough to know that it's the worst of the series. I recognize Xenogears as being one of the best games I ever played.
Quote
FFVIII, good game, one of my least favorite FF games, but the game was still fun, Sqaure just tried to do to many things different, and there were falws, but it was nice to play something new.
I have heard that Square had two choices of works in progress to convert into Final Fantasy 8. One was Xenogears, and one was Eden's Quest. Eden's Quest was the one that became FF8. I don't know if this story is true or not, but it came from someone I think knows about this stuff. The game was a horrible soap opera of a game that I have come to hate very much. The storyline was sickening, the characters were flat and boring (aside from Squall), and the gameplay was akin to torture. New or not, you would think that someone would realize that their combat system sucked. Nintendo could easily make a Mario game in a new fashion where you run through the streets and kill hookers. Good thing that they dont' go for this whole "new" thing.
Quote
FFIX, I can't undestand HOW some of you can say this was bad. The game had a fantastic story, and a very strong cast. Not to mention it felt like FF games of old.
It was a good try. I have always said that. Square honestly tried their hardest to give us something good and reminiscent of the old days. The problem was that they made a story that competed with "Record of Lodoss War" in terms of boringness, and the characters... I couldn't make worse characters if I tried. They were flat, boring, and simply uninteresting. The music in the game was the only good.
Quote
FFX, I see FFX as FFVIII, but it fixed nearly all the flaws of FF8. Characters were enjoyable, story was solid, and there was enough to do. Not to mention it had a nice upgrade to the battle system.
To be honest, I haven't played much of FF10. But from what I did see of it, I hated it. The music sucked, the voice acting sucked, and I wasn't too impressed with the plot.
Gup, I am simply not going to fight with you. It's not worth either of our time. You are FAR too much of a Square fanboy for me to deal with. And you likely think that I am too much of a Nintendo fanboy for you to deal with, so I am just not going to bother. I propose that you ignore my posts about Square, and I will ignore yours. Everyone is happy.
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 27, 2003, 06:04:54 PM
Mouse_clicker: No, I don't enjoy bashing FF. It actually makes my heart hurt to criticize something that has so much potential...
Dr: "I think most the people who bash FF7-X are the Nintendo fanboys who were to stuborn to buy a PSX and play them."
Besides the fact that I own every one but X?
Gup: "to go as far as to say some games will suck without first hand experience"
Ditto...
How about you leave people with their opinions instead of complaining about it? Trying to justify that you are right while complaining about opinions is just plain hypocritical...
(edit: Nicely put Grey ^_^)
Post by: Gup on September 27, 2003, 06:05:39 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 27, 2003, 06:14:25 PM
Post by: KnowsNothing on September 27, 2003, 06:24:00 PM
) FF game I have EVER played. It is a good game on its own rights. it may be different, or even worse than ALL the other FF games, but I have and still am enjoying it. I don't like to compare games to other games too much, becuase if a game is fun for me, it can be horribly boring for a stuipd idio-- I mean, somebody else.
Post by: Gup on September 27, 2003, 06:34:19 PM
Sex, with exceptions to the upcoming FFX-2. . . where?(can skip next section if you want)
Yuna in FFX is the cleanest, most respectful girl
Rikku is dressed completely normal or does seeing some legs and a sleeveless shirt irritate you
Lulu isn't attractive to me, but she has cool design which isn't revealing
Garnet has some big breast, but she's deformed like a kid
Eiko. . . she's a kid
Rinoa has the best designs im my eyes and I don't see any skin on her
Selphie. . . lots of legs and breasts, ya got me there
Quistis is finely dressed, a little sexiness doesn't hurt
And lastly, you Billy seem to be the biggest female admirer with every single one of your avatar pictures being girls so you're hating on yourself.
Post by: Grey Ninja on September 27, 2003, 06:37:18 PM
Quote
If the series was better before. . . than why is it selling higher now.
Sales have dropped substantially in Japan since FF7. America didn't realize what an RPG was until Square advertised the hell out of FF7.
Post by: Gup on September 27, 2003, 07:01:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Grey NinjaQuote
If the series was better before. . . than why is it selling higher now.
Sales have dropped substantially in Japan since FF7. America didn't realize what an RPG was until Square advertised the hell out of FF7.
Here's some Jap sales for our viewing pleasures:
Final Fantasy VII - 3.26
Final Fantasy VIII - 3.60
Final Fantasy IX - 2.86
Final Fantasy X - 2.74
Final Fantasy X-2 - 2.00
Final Fantasy XI - somewhere over 0.3 million
source:Magicbox
Good point, you. But, in defense of this, FFIX was visually different from the others which brought the game down and the fact that it was released at the end of PSOne's life. FFX is currently the top selling PS2 game(until DQVIII) and FFX-2 is basically a side-story, but it's still second best selling PS2 game. And FFXI, it was online and needed the harddrive.
Forgot about this:
FC Final Fantasy III - 1.40
SFC Final Fantasy IV - 1.44
SFC Final Fantasy V - 2.45
SFC Final Fantasy VI - 2.55
Same source
Looks like the playstation FF still sell better than those on Nintendo's system Gup=1 Grey=0. I'll take on more challenges.
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 27, 2003, 07:13:36 PM
Post by: Grey Ninja on September 27, 2003, 07:13:38 PM
Post by: Gup on September 27, 2003, 07:19:33 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Grey Ninja
Sales steadily increased until FF8, regardless of platform, then all of a sudden dropped. I wonder why?
Again, PS' FF games sold better than FC. And again, FFIX was released near PSOne's death(did you compare Ocarina of Time's sales to Majora's Mask which also released at the end of its' system's life). And again, FFX is the top selling PS2 game and it was released on a new system with a lower user installed base. And again Gup still 1, Grey still 0.
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 27, 2003, 07:24:53 PM
- The 3d look, plus Square's major advertising on FFVII made it sell well, FFVIII was living off the hype that FFVII had made(I, too, jumped at FFVIII after FFVII's hype...One of my worst gaming memories >_< )...After that junk, sales went down anyway, no matter if FFIX was shipped at the end of the PS1, sales were still less overall...
"And again Gup still 1, Grey still 0.
Hahaha! I can already picture the kind of person you are...
(edit: And where the hell did you come up with the idea that a game that sells well is good?)
Post by: Grey Ninja on September 27, 2003, 07:28:35 PM
Post by: Gup on September 27, 2003, 07:34:36 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill<br"And again Gup still 1, Grey still 0.
Hahaha! I can already picture the kind of person you are...A stubborn mule who thinks this is a game...
Me, stubborn, whatever do you mean? I make valid proof of the points I make and back it up. Somebody says FF sales on Nintendo systems were better, I prove them wrong. Someone says PS's FF is sells on violence and sex, I prove them wrong. Any problems with that? And again(with some modifications) Gup still 1, Grey and Bill still 0
Post by: Gup on September 27, 2003, 07:39:54 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Grey Ninja
Gee I wish I could just randomly assign scores like you Gup. You are my hero. I also wish that I had the keen deductive aiblity to chart a graph to match my opinions like you.
Why thank you, I am Gup "Game Guru" afterall(see profile)
Quote
Also, I must mention that you are 100% right that Ocarina of Time didn't sell better because it was a better game. It is perfectly obvious to me now that since it was sold when the userbase of the N64 was near its peak, it was ignored.
Did I ever say that? *looks through previous posts* No.
Quote
Your wisdom is truly an inspiration for us all.
Thank you again, your sarcasm is very much appreciated. Anyways I'm going to sleep now, if there's anymore Final Fantasy bashing going on, leave a message and I'll return to fight the good fight
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 27, 2003, 07:46:26 PM
(And you can't prove wrong the fact that FFX had sex appeal that did not need to be included...Just look at some of the outfits...Look at Rikku!...*puke*)
Post by: rpglover on September 27, 2003, 08:14:57 PM
i will have to agree with both bill and grey here (as i usually do)
basically i always turn to characters in rpgs and the newer final fantasy games just didnt have the great characters as the older games had (in my view at least)
take for example final fantasy 6- i thought everyone of the 13 characters you could get in your party were very well drawn out and had good back stories behind them- but not just that- the main villan (kefka) was what really made me love the game- he was such a great villian as shown in his actions through out the game- the only final fantasy that actually was decent in the new ones was definately final fantasy 7- that game had good characters and not just some normal steriotypes- and the main villian in that game (sephiroth) was pretty cool too- the story was crafted well and the game itself was decent- but the final fantasy games after that have been pretty bad- final fantasy 8 was not good at all in my opinion- too many new things= not a good final fantasy game- and final fantasy 9 was not that bad, but it was not good either- square tried hard to make the characters a throwback to the final fantasy games of old, but i didnt like the gameplay that awful much- and final fantasy X was not as good as most people say it is (in my opinion remember)- the gameplay was changed too much for my liking- although the spere grid was a good idea on paper, it didnt translate well in the game- and the characters were too boring for my taste
but as grey said earlier too, just because i dont like the newer final fantasy games does not mean i hate square nor am i just ignorant to anything- many games from square were very good- i though square did a better job with the new games made than with their main games (final fantasy, chrono chross come to mind...) i still feel xenogears to be one of the best rpgs this generation, and vagrant story is a masterpiece- parasite eve was also good
but as i have said before, i hope FFXII will reenergize the series- they have a very talented director at the helm, so in my mind i should have no fear- i just hope the story and characters are well done this time
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 27, 2003, 08:26:13 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on September 27, 2003, 09:48:33 PM
Post by: Urkel on September 27, 2003, 09:58:36 PM
Basically, I feel almost exactly like Grey Ninja does. Most people now that are big fans of Final Fantasy are too young to remember Square back in its prime. Final Fantasy 3, Secret of Mana, Chrono Trigger. Sigh... It just bothers me when teenagers think that the current Final Fantasies are the end all be all experience. Now, I don't think that all of Square has gone to crap. I'm currently 55 hours into FFTA. I loved the original FFT. One game that I'm sure none of you have ever played is Front Mission 3. It's a shame too, because I like it even better than the other two. But when it comes to the recent Final Fantasies:
FF7 - As far as I'm concerned, this is the most overrated game of all time. It was by no means an awful game, it just wasn't deserving of even one tenth the amount of hype it deserved. I can't believe I nearly sold my N64 to buy this, but my brother ended up buying a PSX with his own money. Again, not a bad game, just not a great game. Maybe my opinion of it would be higher if FF3 hadn't set the bar so high. Oh, and I didn't cry when Aeris died. Maybe because stupid EGM likes to print major game spoilers right when a game comes out, so it was no surprise.
Anyway, it seems pretty obvious to me why this game did so extremely well. Graphics. Simple as that. Gup, you honestly don't think it had anything to do with the massive ad campaign in which only FMV was shown? I bet the average person who rushed out and bought it barely even knew what genre the game was in.
FF8 - Ugh. I don't like this. Do I actually have to explain? Do I have to? I'm just so surprised how many people think this is still even an above average game, when it just seems to be so objectively bad. The gameplay is just so terribly flawed that I can't believe people actually got SOME enjoyment out of it. I dunno. It's almost like saying you loved Superman 64. Almost. Where was the fun? I honestly don't remember having any fun playing this game. First, they messed up the magic system. Drawing spells from enemies is tedious and requires no skill or strategy, so what's the point? The weapons upgrade system was flawed too. You needed certain items to upgrade them, but finding the right items from the right enemies just didn't happen enough. By the end of the 3rd disc, most of my party still had their original weapons.
That leads into my next complaint. Since your weapons are so ineffective, that forces you to use the stupid summons. All. The. Time. And you can't skip them. They're like 30+ seconds long. Awful. Just awful. For some reason, they made even the most mundane enemy have a ridiculous amount of HP, so fighting even the simplest battles lasted several minutes. This once again leads into another complaint. There were too many random battles. And not just by a little bit. A lot. Getting into a fight after taking 1-4 steps is the norm and not the exception. Again, not fun.
To top it off they had the incredibly flawed junction system. As far as I'm concerned, this was a sign of sheer laziness. In case you didn't notice, there was no armor, hats, accessories, or any of that in FF8. Rather than have to make up all that stuff, they threw together the half-assed junction system to determine your enhancements.
The only reason I wrote such a long rant on FF8 was just to show a list of legitamite complaints about this game. I have played it, and played it enough to come up with a rather sizable and detailed list of complaints. If you disagree, fine, just don't think that I'm some rabid fanboy that didn't give the game a chance. I did. I wanted to like this. It's just impossible for me to like something that isn't just some game that fell below expectations, but something that I feel was one of the worst gaming experiences ever.
I have more to say about this, but for now I just want to get the point across that some of us DO have legitamite complaints about the series. Besides, didn't the guys at Brownie Brown leave Square because they "Didn't like the direction the company was going in"? Hardly just a bunch of Nintendo fanboys.
Post by: Gup on September 28, 2003, 05:44:32 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill
And you can't prove wrong the fact that FFX had sex appeal that did not need to be included...Just look at some of the outfits...Look at Rikku!...*puke*
Coming from someone who only uses female avatars
. . . okay there bud.
Post by: KnowsNothing on September 28, 2003, 05:55:35 AM
whatever.
Post by: mouse_clicker on September 28, 2003, 05:55:48 AM
Quote
RPGs have two parts: Story and gameplay. A bad story can be made up for by good gameplay (Grandia 2 or any dungeon crawler spring to mind) and vice versa.
Grrr.... WHY do people always say Grandia 2 had a bad story? The plot was nothing special, obviously, but the story itself was magnificent, ESPECIALLY for the religious message they had in the game. Most of the time RPG's tell you to trust in your friends and believe in yourself, which is all fine and dandy the first time around. I'm REALLY glad someone finally made a game that tackles religious beliefs.
Besides that, though, Grandia just plain has the best battle systen ever concieved of.
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 28, 2003, 06:04:57 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Gup
Coming from someone who only uses female avatars
Look at you...Personally attacking someone instead of staying on the issue...
Wow! Collet is showing off a lot of skin! Lots of sex appeal went into that character design! </sarcasm>
Post by: mouse_clicker on September 28, 2003, 06:11:18 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 28, 2003, 06:15:27 AM
Post by: mouse_clicker on September 28, 2003, 06:19:21 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 28, 2003, 06:27:25 AM
Post by: mouse_clicker on September 28, 2003, 06:35:08 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 28, 2003, 06:58:39 AM
Post by: mouse_clicker on September 28, 2003, 07:39:32 AM
Anyway, I've already said all I can say, and I don't want to get into a flame war with anyone.
Post by: KDR_11k on September 28, 2003, 09:13:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
Grrr.... WHY do people always say Grandia 2 had a bad story? The plot was nothing special, obviously, but the story itself was magnificent, ESPECIALLY for the religious message they had in the game. Most of the time RPG's tell you to trust in your friends and believe in yourself, which is all fine and dandy the first time around. I'm REALLY glad someone finally made a game that tackles religious beliefs.
Besides that, though, Grandia just plain has the best battle systen ever concieved of.
Uhhh.... It was just the same old "don't trust the church, they're evil fanatics"-message that every second game with religion tries to send. Of course the church is evil, after all it's a CRPG and in those the church is always evil! The story was like 10 hours shorter than the game and the end was just clicheed.
I agree, the battle system is good. That's why I listed it under "gameplay examples", not "complete failures".
Post by: Urkel on September 28, 2003, 10:13:52 PM
I guess my problem isn't just with the newer Final Fantasy games, it's with a lot of RPGs in general. I'm one of those "crazy people" that thinks that gameplay is the most important aspect of a game, regardless of genre. I'll never understand the mentality of "story first, gameplay second" when it comes to RPGs. Why do RPGs get a pass when it comes to gameplay? It's not like having a great story takes away development time from the gameplay aspect. Take Deus Ex, for example. Great story, excellent open-ended gameplay, plenty of character interaction, and a lengthy adventure (some would say TOO lengthy). Why can't all RPGs be like that? As far as I'm concerned, story and cinematics are the icing on the cake, not the cake itself.
If I want a great story, I'd rather read a book, watch TV, or go see a movie. I play videogames because of the gameplay. If I'm not having fun while playing an RPG, the story sure as hell isn't going to make me feel any better. But hey, that's me.
If you like the gameplay in the newer Final Fantasy games, that's fine. I like a lot of games that other people don't. The subjective quality of gameplay really isn't the point of this post. It's just that I've noticed a lot of people say that gameplay really isn't that important in RPGs. THAT'S what bothers me the most.
Anyway, I think mouse is right about not bashing stuff over and over. This last rant was more about RPGs in general, and not specifically about FF, but I think I'll stop here. I don't really have anything more to say that I haven't said already.
Oh, and I noticed Gup was quick to point out the ONE WORD that I misspelled in my last post. So I guess now the score is:
Gup, the grammer Nazi - 2
Me - Negative 10,032,489,837,458,674,572.0038259125
The entire cast of The Goonies - 10,000,000,000
(Admit it, The Goonies is the greatest movie ever made)
(I spelled grammar wrong on purpose. Sorry to get your hopes up, Gup)
Post by: Gup on September 29, 2003, 03:08:39 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Urkel
Oh, and I noticed Gup was quick to point out the ONE WORD that I misspelled in my last post. So I guess now the score is:
Gup, the grammer Nazi - 2
Me - Negative 10,032,489,837,458,674,572.0038259125
The entire cast of The Goonies - 10,000,000,000
(Admit it, The Goonies is the greatest movie ever made)
(I spelled grammar wrong on purpose. Sorry to get your hopes up, Gup)
Huh?
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill
Gup = FF fanboy
So very true
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill
I'm sick of arguing about how I feel about the FF series, and I'm sick of arguing with a FF fanboy and someone who probably doesn't remember the early days of FF...
I remember the "early days of FF"(SNES & NES) and to be quite honest, they didn't get me hooked on RPGs the way I am now. I'm sure if we were to set up a poll in an RPG website(such as RPGamer or something) asking which Final Fantasy era was/is better?, that the PS days will rule or I can just find you a couple.
Post by: mouse_clicker on September 29, 2003, 03:23:08 AM
KDR: I was right, you weren't paying attention.
The story HAD an evil, corrupt church but that wasn't the ponit of the story. The point of the story was that you don't need a God to tell you what to do in life, that you had free will and that you should use it to live your current life to the fullest instead of wasting it trying to achieve entry to the next life. This was demonstrated by the fact that all these people prayed to Granas and sought guidance from him, only to find out HE'S the one who died, not Valmar. It wasn't about an "evil church".
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 29, 2003, 04:05:03 AM
"I'm sick of arguing about how I feel about the FF series, and I'm sick of arguing with a FF fanboy(that's you Gup) and someone who probably doesn't remember the early days of FF...this part is mouse_clicker)"
Maybe if I rewrote it...
"I'm sick of arguing about how I feel about the FF series, I'm sick of arguing with a FF fanboy, and I'm sick of arguing with someone who probably doesn't remember the early days of FF..."
Better?
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Since I'm not a diehard RPG fan, I play RPGs for good stories and interesting characters...And The Goonies isn't the best movie of all time(Last Crusade is) but I'll agree that it was a very good movie
Post by: Ymeegod on September 29, 2003, 05:35:02 AM
First off if FF VII -FFIX suck so bad then why don't the reviewers agree? FFVII is still the highest rated FF game or even FFX which recieved solid 9.0's.
Personally I love the addition to FMV to the series and what it added--a sense of feel.
As for sex & volience you're point is pretty much invalid. Not sure what FF games you played but characters dying (in FFV alone 4-5 characters die) or that whole sex appeal isn't new either. Sure a 8bit character looks rather dull but if you read the bios it's always some hot little lass and not some overweight ape looking women. You never find 100% girl from the next door from any of these games. The only difference between then and now is how the appear graphically. Big deal.
As for sales, it's pretty weak agruement to say the sales reflect from the quality because if that's the case then freaking SMS, FZero GX, Zelda Wind Waker, ect all sucked ass since they didn't sell as well as the orginals.
Post by: mouse_clicker on September 29, 2003, 12:23:03 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 29, 2003, 01:45:24 PM
SMS- Obviously not as good Super Mario 64...And it wasn't a launch title...
WW- Sadly, people were turned down by the toon-shading...
F-Zero GX - How can you add this? It's barely been out a month in the U.S.!
As for the high scores for FFX, some people like watching games...I like to play them...
Post by: mouse_clicker on September 29, 2003, 04:53:02 PM
Urkel: True, gameplay is more important than story in my opinion, but that is no excuse for a bad story. Truly great games find ways to excel in both gameplay and story- just because a game has a bad story doesn't mean it has good gameplay, and just because a game has a good story doesn't mean it has bad story. I personally play games to escape into another world. This becomes difficult when the story is so sterile to the point where it's almost nonexistant that I'm continually reminded I am playing a game.
Post by: Koopa Troopa on September 29, 2003, 09:24:19 PM
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I guess you guys see yourselves as being more hardcore or superior if you bash Final Fantasy- I bet a lot of you do it just because everyone else does.
Oh yes, we're definitely part of a majority. This is your weakest argument (just for furture reference). As for seeing myself as superior for bashing... No, I praise what deserves praise, and bash what deserves bashing.
Adding sex-appeal (whorifying as I like to call it), is most certainly a legitimate grounding on which to bash.
Anyway, I just wanted chime in and state: I agree with Grey Ninja and Bill. I do so on just about every point. They're my heroes.
Tra-la-la... besides we've all got high hopes for FFXII, even though its most immediate predecessors sucked
I'm naughty.
Post by: Urkel on September 29, 2003, 10:19:05 PM
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Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
Truly great games find ways to excel in both gameplay and story
Agreed. Though Miyamoto's games are an exception to this. He just focuses on the gameplay, and I don't think it really bothers anybody.
What I was trying to get at in my last post was that there seems to be a certain group of people (that I'm not saying you're apart of, Mouse) that care almost exclusively about story and presentation in RPGs, and it doesn't matter if the gameplay is just an afterthought.
One game that comes to mind is Phantasy Star II. I picked up the Phantasy Star Collection when it came out, having never played the original PS games. PSII seems to be considered one of the best in the series by most accounts. I hated it. I really, really didn't want to, but the more I played it, the less I liked it. Of the three in the collection, that one clearly has the best story, music, character design, and overall presentation, but I just couldn't stand the way they set up the game. The battle system was alright, but the main problem was the hellishly maze-like dungeons. You trudge through so many long, boring dungeons that have tons of forks in the road, and elevators leading to different floors. On top of that, the number of random battles is fairly high. Getting through one of these areas on your first attempt is nearly impossible. The whole game felt like one big chore. I'll just stop right there.
My point is, I think the only reason PSII is regarded so highly is because of it's presentation. I felt mislead, since I never really saw anything bad ever said about that game. Obviously, I wasn't expecting it to be as good as a modern RPG, but I at least expected it to be tolerable.
Again, I'm sure there are people out there that enjoyed the gameplay, but I'm willing to bet that most people who aren't looking at it through nostalgic eyes would feel the same way I do.
I'm not saying that story has absolutely no relevence whatsoever on the overall experience. I just wish that there was more gameplay in a lot of RPGs. I find myself being drawn more and more to stategy RPGs like Final Fantasy Tactics and Front Mission 3, than traditional RPGs. The way I see it, they provide all the story of an RPG, with awesome gameplay. It's an unbeatable combo... almost. The problem is, they don't really provide the same quality of story as an RPG. In theory, they could, but for some reason most SRPG storylines just aren't very exciting, IMO. I loved the gameplay of FFT, but it had one of the most boring and convoluted storylines I have ever seen in a game. There are so many double-crossings in the end that it's impossible to follow. If they fashioned the story more like a typical Final Fantasy game, and less about all this political intrigue crap, it would've been nearly flawless.
Post by: PIAC on September 30, 2003, 01:30:05 AM
seriously though, all you guys should lay off each other, there is no absolute truth in gaming, if ONE person finds a game fun then the game is fun for them and all other opinions are meaningless, square should make their own console, given they allready have fanboys ;P
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I'm sure that Square could care less for a group of former-fans who dislike the newer FFs since they're bringing in an even larger fan base with the newer Playstation "classics."
err, square, like any other company, are in this buisness to make money, and such dont want to shut off any potential customers, so your statementis frivoless, square (if they had it their way) would have every person on the planet playing Final Fantasy games.
EDIT: oops, didn't notice the 2 other pages of replies, slot this post in at position 20 and it would make more sence ;P
Post by: mouse_clicker on September 30, 2003, 03:53:54 PM
Koopa Troopa: Try to support your claims next time. And it isn't my weakest argument. It's the whole selling-out syndrome, except with videogames. A lot of FF fans felt resentful when Final Fantasy got popular and suddenly EVERYONE enjoyed it, not just hardcore gamers. They trained themselves not to like the following FF games and look at where it's gotten you! You're like snooty art critics who flame anyone who doesn't share their opinion, or aren't as "educated" as they are. It's not an argument, it's a fact, and it's painfully obvious where ever I look. Instead of trying to explain to me why they didn't like FFIX, or FFX, they tell me "I can't remember the early days of Final Fantasy". Don't give me that BS! It's just an excuse! As I said, it's exactly like when a ban with a cult following gets popular and the original fans claim they "sold" out and hate them for it. Besides all that, your views are clouded with nostalgia, as a friend of mine put so excellently. You can't enjoy something when you're constantly comparing it something else, which is EXACTLY what you "die hard FF fans" do. It's like watching the movie adaption of a book you loved- of course you're going to hate it because you're never just enjoying it for itself, you're always judging it on how it compares to something else, and quite frankly I'm sick of it. If you don't like the new FF's, whatever, just don't constantly bash it and think you're somehow justified in doing so.
Post by: Grey Ninja on September 30, 2003, 06:31:19 PM
Post by: mouse_clicker on October 01, 2003, 01:50:25 PM
Ninja, I don't CARE what your reasons are for disliking the later Final Fantasy games, that's NOT what pisses me off. Althoguh I do have other opinions on that matter, what I'm REALLY mad at is the fact that you feel the need to express your opinion all the time. I'm sure many of you do have very legitimate reasons for disliking the games (not all of you), but that's doesn't mean you should bleat it out every chance you get. In fact, it was YOU, Ninja, who turned this thread into a bash fest of the post FF6 games, from the very first post. DrForester started this thread to discuss the new FFXII website and you single handedly turned into a thread who's sole intention was to bash Final Fantasy. Regardless of your reasoning for not liking the games, how do you justify that? How?? It just doesn't make any sense to me. You take the thread, bend it to your own will, then get pissed off when people call you on it! ONCE is enough to say you hate Final Fantasy- anymore is bashing, and you're just acting like the many groups of people you hate. If someone is talking about Final Fantasy but not in the context of the quality of the last 4 entries, you have absolutely no reason to make it such.
Post by: rpglover on October 01, 2003, 03:42:38 PM
Post by: Marcus Arillius on October 01, 2003, 03:54:39 PM
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Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
People that constantly bash the current Final Fantasies always come off as uptight snobs to me. They feel like they're the expect authority on how an RPG should be played, and yet they find no better use for those skills than to bash the hell out of every Final Fantasy game after 6. You get to the point where you expect each following FF game to be horrible, so it should come as no surprise to do when you think they ARE horrible, since you've embedded yourself so deeply in that mindset that you weren't going to change your opinion no matter how good or bad the game actually was. .
My sentiments exactly.
Final Fantasy 2 (american version) is what turned me on to the series and i have liked all of the final fantasies a lot since then. However, I will say that I liked FF10 the least, but it was still liked. What was wrong with the other Final fantasies? Saying it "sucked" or "didn't suck" isn't going to help either.
Post by: Grey Ninja on October 01, 2003, 04:01:39 PM
Think of it this way. If someone came in here and said: "YAY! Nintendo GameCube is the first Nintendo console that hasn't sucked since SNES!" What would you say?
Now, I am primarilly commenting on certain parts of your last post.
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A lot of FF fans felt resentful when Final Fantasy got popular and suddenly EVERYONE enjoyed it, not just hardcore gamers.
I don't even see how this is an issue. We explained why we didn't like the newer stuff. We all had very legitimate reasons for not liking the newer ones. The QUALITY just wasn't there. In case you hadn't noticed, we have very little bad to say about FF7. Yet it is the most popular of all. The only bad thing that we say about it is that it is the inferior game when compared to FF4 or FF6, and it gets all the credit. Kind of like comparing the Beta with the VHS. This argument pissed me off because it goes straight in the face of all we have said.
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They trained themselves not to like the following FF games and look at where it's gotten you!
More of the same. Just to bring you up to speed, we loved Final Fantasy Tactics, which was uber-popular, and we look forward to seeing Final Fantasy XII.
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ou're like snooty art critics who flame anyone who doesn't share their opinion, or aren't as "educated" as they are.
Who would you trust more? Someone who has read all the LOTR books and seen the movies, or someone who has only seen the movies when talking about what's good or not?
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Instead of trying to explain to me why they didn't like FFIX, or FFX, they tell me "I can't remember the early days of Final Fantasy".
We told you both. Both are very legitimate reasons why we don't respect your opinion. Most of "us" I am sure have played all Final Fantasy games, or very close to it. Can you say the same? And we did tell you why we didn't like FFIX and X.
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As I said, it's exactly like when a ban with a cult following gets popular and the original fans claim they "sold" out and hate them for it.
Even people who only started with FF7 can usually recognize a clear drop in quality after FF7. Square sold out when they released Chrono Cross, Legend of Mana, and Final Fantasy IX in a 3 month period in my books. Every game was a textbook display of complete disaster, not having a great character in any of the games, all of them featuring boring, repetitive gameplay, and all of them having distinctly subpar storylines that did not live up to their predecessors. Final Fantasy X-2 introduced characters with more skin than clothing. I have no problem with T&A, but it's like putting a hooker into a Mario game. It CHEAPENS the experience. If I want to play a game as a $5 hooker, I will play Tomb Raider, not Final Fantasy.
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If you don't like the new FF's, whatever, just don't constantly bash it and think you're somehow justified in doing so.
I would rather be bashing the new Final Fantasies than defending them without having played anything else. The problem is that most people don't play any RPGs BUT the new Final Fantasies. Someone who has never seen an action movie might think that Dr. No or Die Another Day were really good movies. But when viewed in context, you can clearly see that they are subpar. Most people saying that the new Final Fantasies have never played any of the RPG greats. They know not of the genius of Chrono Trigger, Xenogears, Breath of Fire, Valkyrie Profile, Dragon Quest, Tales of Phantasia, or any of the other countless RPGs better than most Final Fantasies.
Mouse Clicker, what I am getting at here is that you are all gung ho at defending something you know nothing about. If I attacked LOTR after having read The Hobbit and watching 10 minutes of the movie, would you say that I was an ignorant moron, or would you tell me that I was the best judge of what was good and what wasn't?
How about if I said that I loved IGN's informed and fair reviews after reading one half of their review of, say... Zelda: Wind Waker? Would you say that I was an uninformed dolt, or that you were just glad that I was happy enjoying IGN?
Or how about those people who have only tried Internet Explorer and don't see the need to switch, because IE "Does everything that they want it to." Would you call them idiots if they came to a site and complained about popups?
Anyways, that's my rant for the day. God I feel good now that I have that out of my system.
Post by: mouse_clicker on October 01, 2003, 06:48:39 PM
And obviously you need to read ALL of my posts instead of just skimming through them for a few quotes. My point is NOT that you don't like Final Fantasy (and don't pull that Tactics crap on me- you know full well we're talking about the main series), it's that you bash it CONSTANTLY. Yes, you were bashing the series at the beginning of the thread. You want me to follow your lead and post a quote of YOURS? Deal:
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posted by Grey Ninja Fri September 26, 2003 1:17 AM:
That same goddamned poster. When are they actually going to show something to back up my words that this might be the first Final Fantasy that hasn't sucked since #6?
How is that NOT bashing Final Fantasy? You said every FF game after FFVI sucked! Listen- this isn't about opinions on Final Fantasy, so whether I've played NONE or ALL of them shouldn't matter one bit. It's the fact that have you absolutely nothing better to do than bash the game whenever the opportunity arises that pisses me off. You didn't have anything to comment on about the FFXII site, so you did the next best thing- bashed FFVII-X. If you didn't have anything to say, why did you say anything at all? The thread title is "Final Fantasy 12 Website Up And Running", not "How much do FFVII, VIII, IX, and X suck?". Maybe you misread it, I don't know, but that's what you DID. Don't give me this BS about me not "remembering the early days"- thats your elitist attitude pissing me off again, and I think you'll find the only people it doesn't piss off are the same elitist @$$holes saying the same thing. GET A LIFE! If the topic calls for your opinion on Final Fantasy, offer it up, but you're going to look like an even more hopeless dork than me when you have to be the guy that ALWAYS says FF sucks. Just shut up already! I'm sick and tired of it! Make your own thread where you and your buddies can bash it to your heart's content, but leave the threads for actual discussion about the GAMES to other people. Jesus christ, you'd think that even YOU would realise that you're spouting out the same useless cap over and over and over again by now, but for some reason you haven't! What do I have to do to get it through your guys' heads that we don't want to hear how "FFVIII was no better than Superman 64", or how there was "clearly a drop in quality after the 7th Final Fantasy", or how "Square sold out after Chrono Cross". I don't may not like it when people disagree with me, but I only flame them when they're being such incredible jerks that they deserve it. All I ask is for you to LEAVE the discussions about the game to people who actually want to discuss the game, and leave your snooty, superior attitude out of it if you can't restrain yourself from bashing the games for even just a second. Good god.
Post by: Grey Ninja on October 01, 2003, 08:15:46 PM
This is a message board. People post their opinions. If you can't handle that, you shouldn't be here.
Post by: Celebi on October 01, 2003, 10:32:23 PM
The site even wrote an article that IBM is developing a CPU for the Xbox 2.How desperate they are..
http://www.the-inquirer.com/?article=11860
Funny thing is that they took the site down a few hours later.
Post by: Marcus Arillius on October 02, 2003, 04:53:10 AM
Post by: GLAKO-FAHN on November 19, 2003, 04:22:31 PM
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Originally posted by: Urkel
I loved the gameplay of FFT, but it had one of the most boring and convoluted storylines I have ever seen in a game. There are so many double-crossings in the end that it's impossible to follow. If they fashioned the story more like a typical Final Fantasy game, and less about all this political intrigue crap, it would've been nearly flawless.
Whooooooooooaaaaaaaa! Nuh-uh! You're entitled to your opinion in saying the story is boring; however, you may not say it is convoluted! Its a work of concise brilliance, leaving quite a bit to be thought through, not only the surface - which is a good thing. I also loved the gameplay of FFT.
Post by: seven_chaos on November 19, 2003, 05:24:27 PM
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Originally posted by: Grey Ninja
Just had a lot of drinks, had a crappy night, and am not in a friendly mood, so I will put it more bluntly this time.
This is a message board. People post their opinions. If you can't handle that, you shouldn't be here.
GO YOU!!!
This whole final fantasy situation reminds me of that whole stupid mario kart ign crap. HAHAHAHA. I started out with VII. YES, it is my favorite of the main series. Uhhhhhhh, but I have to admit, that Tactics is my favorite FF PERIOD. OLD SCHOOL RULES. I am currently playing through Final Fantasy
. I love it. We need a new FF that is 2D but hella high quality. That would bring tears to my eyes. Uhhhhhhhhhhh. As far as XII, it looks good. I have high hopes. It looked like they are now using pre-rendered backgrounds again. WOO HOO! AND A WORLD MAP! OK, I am done now.
Post by: Inkwell on November 20, 2003, 11:10:31 AM
Post by: Cypher9 on December 04, 2003, 01:20:33 PM
Post by: Bloodworth on December 04, 2003, 05:49:13 PM
The same argument for what six years now?? AAAAAGHGH
