Post by: joeamis on August 04, 2003, 11:47:44 AM
KDR states: "You know the IDSA is most likely a group of suit terrorists that would like you to not know/give up your rights for their profit?"
- ok, this is just absurd, likening them to terrorists in suits.
KDR states: "Example: You bought a GC game which came without manual (let's say, used.). Now, the disk contains no info about any licenses, neither does the packaging. That means, you are not aware that there are any contracts involved and probably even own the copy. In case of Metroid Prime (didn't check the other ones) even the manual says nothing about licenses..."
-in the Metroid Prime manual it states: All Rights, including the copyrights of game, scenario, music, and program, reserved by Nintendo. it also states: This Nintendo game is not designed for use with any unauthorized copying device or any unlicensed accessory.
(it doesn't matter if you buy it used with no manual, and you don't know about the laws, THEY STILL APPLY) from what you're saying it's like if i didn't know that a stop sign meant to stop then it doesn't apply to me.
KDR states: That licensed for PS2 probably means they acquired a license from Sony to use the PS2 platform, just as you see "Licensed by Nintendo" on GBA games.
- wrong, sony has that message on first party games..............
KDR states: Either way, as long as you didn't know you're commiting a crime, the courts will probably let you go free.
- NO CHANCE, this never applies to any law. If you commit a crime, without knowing it's against the law, you're still charged for the crime. no if, ands, or buts. Bar none.
Finally, the most important point i stated earlier in greyninjas case. A form of piracy doesn't always have to go against the current laws in place. Just because it is not "illegal" does not mean it's not piracy.
and finally again: Nintendo spokeswoman Beth Llewelyn had this to say about N64 emulators:
"It promotes continued piracy."
Post by: HiTmaN on August 04, 2003, 05:43:12 PM
Back to piracy, if a multimillion dollar company is charing $50-$100 for software I'm definetly not buying it. Why buy something when you can get it FREE? Just think about that. You burn cd's, you download songs, your pirating and simple as that.
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 04, 2003, 06:11:56 PM
Post by: joeamis on August 04, 2003, 06:24:38 PM
cost to develop FF 12= 40 million dollars. (probably costs more)
(FF 7 released in 1997, which means it was developed all the way back in 1995-1997 and it cost $40 million to make)
cost to develop and ship out 3 million copies= 90 million (that's if it cost 30 bucks a game to develop and ship out, it probably cost more, i dont think companies make 20 profit on every game)
40 million + 90 million= 130 million dollars lost - 3 million (if 100,000 copies of FF12 sold before the pirated version came out)= 127 million dollars lost
(and that's to say if someone pirated the game early, if the pirated version came out later then they will have sold some more of those games yes, but they would lose even more money on all the additional copies shipped that didn't sell)
now do you understand why it's bad? sure that's a worse case scenario but still Nintendo estimated that it lost around $650 million in sales last year because of piracy, and the entire industry might have lost over $3 billion.
do you realize that with 650 million more dollars how many more employees, development teams, and games Nintendo could have made? Which in turn would've created even more profit for them?
in your personal case, this could've resulted in you getting Mario Kart DD a year earlier because they could've had twice as many people working on it...
Post by: Bill Aurion on August 04, 2003, 06:25:57 PM
Everyone who pirates thinks everytime they burn a cd it's only a drop in the bucket. But they're wrong. Think about it way; what if you made an entertainment product and you lost more than a quarter of your potential profit. Wouldn't you be pretty pissed? What I'm afraid is going to happen is that piracy will become so widespread that the companies that produce these forms of electronic entertainment will kick the bucket. Then there won't be any games or music to pirate. If you can't afford to get the software, then get a damn job!
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 04, 2003, 06:46:31 PM
And don't anyone try to throw me that BS that the Dreamcast died because of piracy- a combination of Sony's hype for the PS2 and Sega's plethora of niche titles is what killed the Dreamcast, not me or you ripping a game off a friend (which I actually never did).
Post by: Bill Aurion on August 04, 2003, 07:10:03 PM
Post by: joeamis on August 04, 2003, 08:04:08 PM
$3 billion in piracy. That means the videogame industry lost
32% of it's total revenue to piracy. Ok it's really not a problem.....
note my sarcasm?
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 04, 2003, 08:10:03 PM
Post by: joeamis on August 04, 2003, 08:57:00 PM
i didn't save the site where i found it, and it took alot of searching.
if i come up on it again, i'll provide the site.
the industry won't go in a depression from money that's not made,
only if they go in debt will it =depression.
Post by: Termin8Anakin on August 04, 2003, 09:18:13 PM
Game soundtracks aren't sold here, so I had to get them burnt to listen to them. I have Cds of MArio, Zelda, F-Zero X and Perfect Dark. The most recent soundtrack I got was Spirited Away. It's not a game, but it was a limited release movie here in Sydney. It was only shown in one or two cinemas. So as you'd expect, the soundtrack wasn't sold here. I looked on Ebay (for which my cousin just joined), and the cheapest price I could find was AUS$40. That's around US$60. Ludicrous. I looked at anime import sites, and the cost again was high. So, I burnt it. But I wanted the actual copy so much, i even printed out the front, back and inside covers and stuck them in the CD to make it LOOK authentic. You can see them here:
My Spirited Away CD covers
I also only burn programs when they cost in the thousands.
I want to get started in 3D animation. Maya and 3D Studio Max are the programs i need to learn, since they are used in the industry. The proper way to get them is to buy them, but they cost in the thousands each. So how does an average joe like me get them? The only way is to get them burnt.
I use have Windows 98 SE, which is an official CD. It only cost around 100 dollars, but it was worth it.
I try not to burn CDs, but if I must, then I will. With games, I don't burn games, nor do I have any games that are burnt. Check my shelves. None. Nintendo games for me are special that I don't wanna burn them. But with Sony and Microsoft? I don't care. Let piracy hurt them. They put in the features that allow pirates to pirate their games (like Xbox's HDD), that's their bad luck.
Post by: Tman on August 04, 2003, 10:41:38 PM
Post by: Termin8Anakin on August 05, 2003, 01:47:54 AM
AS far as we're concerned, if a studio doesn't get back the money they spent to make the game, that's a loss. So, not selling a game is a loss.
Piracy is also a loss, but moreso because people are playing the game without paying for it.
Post by: manunited4eva22 on August 05, 2003, 01:30:41 PM
If you want free things, get into FreeBSD, Linux, darwin if you are a mac user, whatever. Nearly everything in open source is free, and you can screw around with the code to suit your needs.
Will piracy ever go away completely, probablly not, and piracy always will serve a purpose. Piracy in most cases can be used as a ruler to show how well developed hardware was, and so forth.
You can justify that people like the Vole shouldn't care, but then again, who is more morally right? The thief, or the thief who stole from the thief?
Post by: HiTmaN on August 05, 2003, 02:32:24 PM
Post by: aoi tsuki on August 05, 2003, 03:21:50 PM
Quote
Pirating is not morally wrong because companies make cd burners, cd-rws, cd labels and such for creating custom cds
Maybe according to your morals. Morals as a whole are subjective and therefore hold little weight when legality (which is objective) comes into play, which is what usually happens in a piracy debate. The companies that make these products are out to make a profit, plain and simple. They make it because there's a demand for them, and it's legal to do so. Whether or not it's moral to do so is completely up to the individual. The items themselves are not illegal, but the activity of pirating is. Owning a gun (with the proper licenses and whatnot) is legal in the US, but killing someone with it isn't. So is killing not morally wrong because companies make guns?
Post by: manunited4eva22 on August 05, 2003, 04:16:28 PM
I just kind of wonder, why do people try to justify pirating? The last time I checked you guys weren't privateers saving the country from other countries products to add to our money, and to boost the economy.
You can't justify what you do, no matter how you may try. It is legally wrong, and I would have to imagine extremely hard to sincerely convince yourself that there is nothing wrong with it.
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 05, 2003, 04:28:19 PM
That's really a whole different issue. It comes down to what's more important- people's lives or people's rights. While banning guns, raising the driving age, and making all intoxicating substances illegal is infringing on American rights, it DOES save countless lives. It's really a touchy subject, one I don't personally see that would relate to pirating.
What I'd like to know is if pirating is such a huge problem, why aren't entire industries shutting down because of it? I watched a show a few days ago which said that it's estimated that $9 billion worth of cars are stolen every year in America. Why, then, isn't the car industry completely folding up because of this? I do agree that pirating is moraly wrong, that people really should NOT do it, but to say it's a huge problem just isn't true. People are still buying CD's, people are still buying games, people are still buying movies, and despite a number of other people pirating this stuff, CD's, games, and movies have all seen record sales.
Post by: HiTmaN on August 05, 2003, 04:45:42 PM
Quote
Hitman, I take it you support bans on guns. Higher minimum driving ages, banning of all substances that can be misused. Because, frankly, that is the arguement you are making. What you say is that because someone can use a product wrongfully, that company that produces that product is commiting the same moral sin as you.
I dont remember saying anything about guns, driving ages, or all substances. So uhh...I have no idea what your talking about, And most of the black cds sold say 75 minutes of recording time or something like that on it. What can you put on a blank cd that plays for 75minutes...I wonder...
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 05, 2003, 04:52:23 PM
Post by: manunited4eva22 on August 05, 2003, 05:10:28 PM
Right...hitman again, have you ever had some dire need to have any of the things you steal. Has your life ever been in dire need of it. If not then, where is the moral need of it.
Again here is another example. I'm sure a lot of you have seen office space. You see how they decided to steal a penny here and there of the companies money, but it does add up.
You justify what you do the same way they do, it's not that much everytime you do it.
Hmm, 3 billion dollars on games alone, you don't call that a lot of money?
God knows I despise the RIAAs tactics as much as the rest of you, but honestly, there is no way to win against the lawsuits. I'm sure some of you would stand defiant and think you would get away with it. thing is, you are going to be slapped with a very heavy fine in the end, and no one is going to help you pay it.
All these people saying resist the RIAA, put up a stand, very few of them would do it themselves, as at 700 dollars a violation (that is the MINIMUM for copyright infringement), it would be very very costly.
Now back onto the morals of pirating.
What can you put on 80Minute, 700MB discs. well lets see...
burned copies of your own music
vcds
data back ups
pictures
legal back ups of programs
I'm sure there are a lot of other things
The fact that they have minutes on CDs is for convienence. It is far from a message of: "HEY KID STEAL MUSIC!" If it was, don't you think the RIAA would have already gone after them with a vengence?
You want to talk about underground bands, fine. Guess what, a lot of them DO depend on their music revenue, and you still say, they can live with it. If they want to live with it, they will say 'sure put our music wherever' otherwise, you have no right to judge for them what they want.
And pirating is more than 13,000 dollars, oh far more. Lets say the 15 million people on kazaa have atleast one copyrighted song. Thats right there 15 million dollars. lets make that a little more reasonable, 80 songs.
thats 18 BILLION dollars.
If you would like to explain to me how the theft of 18 billion dollars is justified, be my guest.
Once again I leave you with a little riddle: who is worse off, the thief, or the thief who steals from the thief.
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 05, 2003, 05:14:28 PM
Post by: manunited4eva22 on August 05, 2003, 05:29:43 PM
Post by: HiTmaN on August 05, 2003, 05:36:14 PM
Post by: Tman on August 05, 2003, 05:59:27 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on August 05, 2003, 06:18:12 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: HiTmaN
...if you want to pirate go ahead if you dont shut up and dont pirate.
That makes absolutely no sense. The point is that those who do pirate will eventually screw it all up for the rest of us. It saddens me that the majority of those who pirate have absolutely no idea what they are doing. And apparently my earlier post wasn't received. If you can't afford to buy something, then get a damn job!
Post by: DRJ on August 05, 2003, 06:27:07 PM
Music Cds cost like $18 for a movie soundtrack, and the DVD for the movie is $15, whats wrong with that picture?
Piracy will always be a problem. It is up to the developer to take whatever measure they can to make it sooo dificult to copy that most people will not.
Nintendo has a lot of piracy going on with Gameboy / GBA games being copied. And that system is making them all their money. Pokemon Ruby/Saphire has probably sold close to 10 million copies worldwide by now.
Does Piracy hurt? yes, but not as bad as these multibillion dollar companies want us to believe. Oh no, M$ only made 20 billion last year, without piracy they could have made 30 billion, boo hoo.
Just for the record I do not pirate comsole games. PC games/software sure and music CDs, sure. DVDs are too much hassle for me, but I will download movies before they come out occasionally. Like I got X2 and MAtrix Reloaded, but I will buy those DVDs when they come out.
Post by: HiTmaN on August 05, 2003, 07:00:23 PM
Quote
That makes absolutely no sense. The point is that those who do pirate will eventually screw it all up for the rest of us. It saddens me that the majority of those who pirate have absolutely no idea what they are doing. And apparently my earlier post wasn't received. If you can't afford to buy something, then get a damn job!
*Sigh* guess I have to come back because people just cant understand. It makes perfect sense. If you want to pirate then DO IT. If you dont then DONT PIRATE (hopefully you can understand that, unless I have to put it all in caps) and just shut up and stop complaining. You complain and that gets you nowhere. Not of all us can get a job because we all arent at the age, and not all of us have $15 for the newest cd that comes out, so why do that when you can get it FREE. And the majority of people that pirate have an idea of what they are doing because apparently its pissing you off.
Why cant people understand that if they dont want to pirate they dont have to, its an option. Why do you continue to say it hurts buisnesses when we know this and we do not care. The music industry has enough money going around and its a company that makes millions off people who work hard at first, buy a mansion and get lazy. Big buisnesses and little buisnesses may lose some profit but its nothing they cant handle, I havent heard of a buisness going bankrupt because of piracy. Don't even say anything about the video game industry because it hasn't even reached the point to where its a problem yet. The numbers posted earlier were 100% BS. Its hard to pirate games for the GC and if it happeneds to Sony or Microsoft its nothing they cant handle.
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 05, 2003, 08:09:01 PM
And just because you can't afford a CD is no justification, either- in fact, it's worse. It's no better than robbing a convenience store of some magazines because you can't afford them. CD's are by no means necessary- if you were stealing food or water because you couldn't afford it, I'd feel a bit differently, but music is pure entertainment, which you can most definitely live without.
Post by: aoi tsuki on August 05, 2003, 08:12:21 PM
Quote
Not of all us can get a job because we all arent at the age, and not all of us have $15 for the newest cd that comes out, so why do that when you can get it FREE.
You can't get something so you resort to pirating it? Why not just get the best you can and go to a store and physically steal it? You'll get an authentic disc, and high quality printed materials. Jeez, before i got a job, when i wanted something i'd have to save for it with whatever money i was given, or just not get it at all. And there are places to get used discs. i'd rather put my money in a smaller business like that than contribute to Best Buy's success (just an example) anyways.
The fact is, i doubt groups like the RIAA are really worried about most of the people pirating today. What they're really worried about is the next generation of pirates, those that have no concept of going to the store and buying a CD when they can just pirate it. As tough a sell as buying digital music is now, it'll be even tougher for that group. i remember a similar fear back in the mid-80s to early 90s, but with the web involved and the computer established as a home fixture now, i think it's really justified.
Post by: HiTmaN on August 05, 2003, 08:19:12 PM
Quote
Why not just get the best you can and go to a store and physically steal it?
You obviously dont know the consequences if you get cought. Now that I'm on probation, I think twice before I do anything illegal EVER. I don't have a job, I wont be getting one until next year. When I do have a job I am going to get as many free things as possible, because instead of spending $15 on something I could get free, I could put that money towards something I actually need.
Post by: joeamis on August 05, 2003, 08:22:52 PM
---- $9 billion in cars stolen is a small percentage of the $ cars sold. Entire industries don't shutdown unless the majority of the companies in the industry go bankrupt...
quote Hitman: Say 1,000 people decide to burn a cd. Thats about $13,000 the artist is missing on. BIG DEAL. Half this artists are in commercials that pay well over that, not even to mention the amounts from merchandise and concert tickets.
----so you're saying half of the artists in the music industry are in commercials...hmm in the last 10 years I've only seen about 15 music artists in commercials...
quote mouseclicker: If you ask me, a dollar to listen to a song is too much.
I never buy CD's on which each song costs a dollar or more. ----so you've never bought a cd that has 15 or less songs on it? I find that very hard to believe...
quote mouseclicker: The numbers posted earlier were 100% BS.
----650 million last year for piracy of Nintendo, 3 billion for industry, these #'s are straight from Nintendo so I guess you believe Nintendo is 100% bs huh.
BTW you can fit the entire NES library of games (over 1000 games) on 1 blank cd,
you can also hold 10 N64 games on 1 blank cd....
Post by: kennyb27 on August 05, 2003, 08:32:41 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on August 05, 2003, 08:41:05 PM
...
The words of a Grade-A cheapskate. Not to mention someone who doesn't seem to understand that people should not be getting these kinds of things for free...*sigh*
And just to add something, if you don't actually need the music, then why bother? (Hey, it's pretty much implied up there that you don't need the music)
Post by: KDR_11k on August 06, 2003, 03:52:09 AM
The whole IP law is a pretty ambiguous and depends on the judge who interprets it. Example: Would you have thought a remote control is a "device or method to circumvent a copyprotection mechanism"? Neither did I before the judge said so. That was in a lawsuit of a garage gate manufacturer against a company that produced 3rd party remote controls for said gates. This was possible via the DMCA, which was brought to us by the RIAA/MPAA (which I therefore call "suit terrorists", as they hate our freedoms). The very same DMCA could make it illegal to read a Word document (by any author) without Microsoft's consent.
Some judges might let you off the hook for minor offenses (like playing a legally owned game with an emulator) if they accept you didn't know this wasn't legal. Usually those judges are human beings as well and there is no major sum involved that would make a won lawsuit profitable for the company. It's like fan art, there is only a single case of a company suing fans for fan art (Marvel vs. Skindex) because it's such a minor offense. Some laws even require the copyright infringement to be obvious (German law on private copying, for example) for it to be a real criminal act.
The stop sign analogy doesn't work because A: If you don't know what a stop sign means you don't have a driver's licence and B: It can cause physical harm to you and those around you. I have no numbers to back it up, but I'm sure emulators have harmed fewer people than a Pokemon TV broadcast (650 000 epileptic seizures in Japan during one episode according to Guinness).
The emulator is a pretty ambiguous legal situation, else Microsoft would have shut down Wine looooooong ago.
Interesting facts:
-A law designed to reduce spamming and ease criminal investigation, which is in place in some US states, indirectly prohibits email encryption and usage of "honeypods" (computers used to attract hackers to study their behaviour and used exploits).
-The RIAA's tactic to swamp P2P services with fake MP3s is legally fraud and thus any person downloading such a file can sue the RIAA for fraud, regardless of the attempted copyright infringement. There's even a precedent that a criminal may still sue companies, I think it involves suing a car manufacturer for a broken down escape car or something to that effect.
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 06, 2003, 05:11:03 AM
Are you sure? Do you know how much cars sell? And if it's such a small number, why are they making a bigger case out of car theft than piracy, which is supposedly taking a much larger percentage? They have entire police units whose sole job is to hunt down stolen cars, yet piracy still goes unpunished, even when apparently it's more threatening to it's industry.
And you're right the majority of the companies have to go bankrupt for an industry to collapse, and yet how many companies have gone bankrupt due to piracy AT ALL?
"----so you've never bought a cd that has 15 or less songs on it? I find that very hard to believe..."
Why should it be? I'm 15 years old- I don't get a whole lot of money, seeing as I don't have a job, so what I do get I spend almost exclusively on videogames. A CD that has 15 or less songs on it just isn't worth the cost for me, especially since I'll most likely only end up liking a few of the songs anyway.
"quote mouseclicker: The numbers posted earlier were 100% BS.
----650 million last year for piracy of Nintendo, 3 billion for industry, these #'s are straight from Nintendo so I guess you believe Nintendo is 100% bs huh"
That's Hitman who posted that, not me.
Post by: Termin8Anakin on August 06, 2003, 05:45:49 AM
Now, I don't wanna pirate DVDs. I have a great surround sound system for a reason, and I hate it when my sister brings home a VCD of a movie her friend got from Hong Kong (the most recent is Matrix Reloaded). The sound sux and the quality sux (always taped by a camera from the cinema). One of the things i was surprised by most however, was how the pirates got their hands on the full 'making-of' feature for Reloaded (I always wondered how they made the Burly Brawl - now I know!).
Like I said before, I only burn CDs if I have to.
One of the things that's really interesting about this whole fiasco is why nobody has really said that it was illegal to tape movies off TV. Is it? If not, then it is basically the same thing as burning CDs. If it is, then bad luck. Commercials may be a pain to watch if you taped them, but at least we can pause them out.
When i do pirate things (i try to avoid it where i can), i don't have this voice in the back of my head claiming that i will go to hell or something. I know it's wrong, but bloody hell, it's not something i trouble myself over. Unless EVERYTHING of mine was pirated, or I did something SO wrong that I should be running from the feds, then I have nothing to worry about. And neither should you.
And Nintendo........all of us here love them right? So don't pirate their games or buy pirated games! We wanna give them the most support we can give! I do!!
Post by: evilnate on August 06, 2003, 06:15:41 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Termin8Anakin
One of the things that's really interesting about this whole fiasco is why nobody has really said that it was illegal to tape movies off TV. Is it? If not, then it is basically the same thing as burning CDs. If it is, then bad luck. Commercials may be a pain to watch if you taped them, but at least we can pause them out.
There's actually a big, important difference between taping a movie or television show off TV and burning a pirated CD, DVD, or game. On commercial television, the rights for the movie are not bought and paid for by the viewer, but by the advertisers. The movie, whether it's being viewed as it airs or on a tape, has been paid for. The viewer never, at any time, is required to pay for the right to view the movie. The advertisers are providing the opportunity to the viewer in exchange for the benifit of promoting and selling their products.
On the other hand, the sole source of income for companies producing games, CDs or DVDs is the direct sale to consumers of their products.
A closer analogy would be someone with a cable descrambler. Those people are doing the same thing as those who pirate software.
Post by: manunited4eva22 on August 06, 2003, 07:19:47 AM
700-10,000 dollars per violation. Possibility of up to 6 months in federal prison per violation. That is the US law anyway. I'm sure it could be lesser in canada, and in europe, but it seems like big blue and a few other companies are pressing for stricter laws there.
Post by: thecubedcanuck on August 06, 2003, 07:23:17 AM
Make enertainment affordable, give me value for my money and then I will stop pirating, until then the music intustry can kiss my you know what.
As for games, the same thing goes.
Listening to Millionaire executives, give their sob stories from their private jets is simply laughable IMO.
Post by: thecubedcanuck on August 06, 2003, 07:24:36 AM
Make enertainment affordable, give me value for my money and then I will stop pirating, until then the music intustry can kiss my you know what.
As for games, the same thing goes.
Listening to Millionaire executives, give their sob stories from their private jets is simply laughable IMO.
Post by: manunited4eva22 on August 06, 2003, 07:33:30 AM
Post by: joeamis on August 06, 2003, 03:08:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
While a N spokes(wo)man might say emulators promote piracy, piracy isn't the main usage of an emulator.
Yes it is, no doubt here.
Quote
Just because you can play pirated games on an emulator that doesn't mean the guy who wrote it wanted you to do that, just like the GBA can play imported games but N doesn't want you to import them.
So guys who make emulators for systems out right now, don't want you to play any games on it?- which is the only way you wouldn't be pirating...
Quote
Just because it is possible to do something that doesn't have to be its main usage. I can club somebody to death with my PC, does that mean the PC is intended to be used for that? Naah, the large case is there because the cooler clipped into the PSU, not because I'm planning to kill people. You can outlaw emulators taking all legitimate users' freedoms away or you can just outlaw its illegitimate uses.
Horrible analogy of your PC being for clubbing people to death as a reason why someone might use it. There are not legitimate users of emulators, especially emulators of this generation of consoles. You cannot just outlaw emulators illegitimate uses, the only way to do that is outlaw emulators entirely, so you're contradicting yourself.
Quote
This was possible via the DMCA, which was brought to us by the RIAA/MPAA (which I therefore call "suit terrorists", as they hate our freedoms). The very same DMCA could make it illegal to read a Word document (by any author) without Microsoft's consent.
They don't "hate" our freedoms like terrorists do, they hate illegal use. The analogy of the Word document is horrible, Microsoft licenses everyone who owns MWord to use it.
Quote
Some judges might let you off the hook for minor offenses (like playing a legally owned game with an emulator) if they accept you didn't know this wasn't legal.
For someone to not realize this isn't legal is just ridiculous. It's so obvious.
Quote
The stop sign analogy doesn't work because A: If you don't know what a stop sign means you don't have a driver's licence
Driver's licenses are issued every four years, if someone was in a coma or if someone develops alzheimers in this time and then returns to driving and don't know to stop, they're still breaking the law.
mouseclicker wrote: Are you sure? Do you know how much cars sell? And if it's such a small number, why are they making a bigger case out of car theft than piracy, which is supposedly taking a much larger percentage? They have entire police units whose sole job is to hunt down stolen cars, yet piracy still goes unpunished, even when apparently it's more threatening to it's industry.
I respond: According to data from the National Automobile Dealers Assn., total dealership revenue last year was $679 billion. They're making such a case because of all the people who report their cars stolen every year, and the related issue with Insurance companies who cover those owners. (the cars stolen are years old and not worth as much as brand new cars, that's why $9 billion sounds low, but in actuality it's alot more cars stolen than if they were worth as much as new cars) AND Piracy DOES NOT GO UNPUNISHED, the guy who developed Napster now owes millions of dollars.
and you claim you don't own 1 cd with 15 songs or less on it, whatever.... the majority of albums out have less than 16 songs on them.
Now to back up Evilnate's point of: On the other hand, the sole source of income for companies producing games, CDs or DVDs is the direct sale to consumers of their products.
me: Exactly! Do you want games to start having commercials and advertising in them other than a company's name/logo on a texture (think GTurismo3) because of Piracy?
I don't think so, since you guys bitch about having a pop up window show up when you access a site...
as far as music artists and $, it's not their fault it is the record COMPANIES fault, not only do record companies screw us over, they screw over music artists.
Post by: KDR_11k on August 06, 2003, 10:52:52 PM
The MSWord thing is there: MS EULAs contain a paragraph that allows MS to revoke the license without reason. I'm sure law prevents them from doing that, but still... And, of course, they can stop interoperation with their software. Say, if you got a company and all your documents are written in MSWord format, you decide to switch to linux for cost and performance reasons. Now, Linux has Star Office and Open Office, which can open .doc files. BUT, if MS doesn't want you to do that, they can legally prevent you from opening those files. Means you're screwed.
Also, I'd assume that console emulators are fully legal considering a certain PS emulator was sold in many retail stores and I'd assume that what you can buy in a store isn't illegal.
Post by: ThePerm on August 07, 2003, 08:00:23 AM
Post by: vudu on August 07, 2003, 10:35:30 AM
on a side note, i used to pirate PC games when i was like 18, but stopped because i would never really get that much enjoyment out of them. i always seemed to enjoy my games more if i dropped the cash to pay for them. if i got them for free i would play them halfway through, download something else and move on. if i paid for the game i would be sure to get my money's worth out of the game.
Post by: joeamis on August 07, 2003, 12:19:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
An emulator surely has its legal uses, there are TONS of freeware GBA games that were developed by using an emulator or a ROM burner. Or you could rip a rom image from a legally owned game to use the emulators debug features (slot machines are a lot easier to win in 10x slomo...). The ROM ripping is basically the same as ripping an MP3 from a CD (which is permitted under fair use), so if one is illegal the other is as well (and all of the CD/DVD-Rip software out there would be illegal as well).
The MSWord thing is there: MS EULAs contain a paragraph that allows MS to revoke the license without reason. I'm sure law prevents them from doing that, but still... And, of course, they can stop interoperation with their software. Say, if you got a company and all your documents are written in MSWord format, you decide to switch to linux for cost and performance reasons. Now, Linux has Star Office and Open Office, which can open .doc files. BUT, if MS doesn't want you to do that, they can legally prevent you from opening those files. Means you're screwed.
Also, I'd assume that console emulators are fully legal considering a certain PS emulator was sold in many retail stores and I'd assume that what you can buy in a store isn't illegal.
That's why none of those games made using emulators are for sale because it's illegal to do so. Rom ripping is not the same as ripping an MP3 from cd. Roms are illegal, MP3 for personal use off your cd's are legal.
You're not screwed if you can't open .doc files, all you have to do is transfer the text which can be done very easily with a variety of software. Actually that PS emulator was pulled from stores after action from Sony. It was available before it was deemed illegal.
Post by: Zelda on August 07, 2003, 01:32:00 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on August 07, 2003, 10:48:19 PM
The program that transfers the text has to open and decrypt the file just like your editor has to and therefore would be illegal as well in this situation ("circumvention of copyright mechanism").
And I still don't see why ripping MP3s is legal if ripping of ROMs isn't. Both are images of existing media which are played using a special program. The media type surely doesn't matter.
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on August 07, 2003, 11:14:46 PM
People might feel justified about downloading mp3s, but they never (or rarely or whatever) feel justified pirating games or movies. Probably because the game and movie biz folks aren't a bunch of extortionist thugs.
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 08, 2003, 08:19:44 AM
Another reason, I think, that people don't have as many qualms about downloading MP3's as opposed to games is that CD's usually cost around 15 or 16 dollars, and individual songs much less, whereas games can cost all the way up to $60. It just doesn't feel as illegal when what you're stealing is worth less.
Post by: vudu on August 08, 2003, 11:21:38 AM
Post by: vudu on August 08, 2003, 11:44:23 AM
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 08, 2003, 12:37:20 PM
Besides, for most music pirates, it's not a matter of justifying what they've done- they see themselves as sort of modern day Robin Hoods, stealing from the greedy corporate machine and giving to the oppressed poor people. They see themselves as sticking it to the corporate evil, similar to how some people wouldn't notify their bank about an error in their favor because they see it as the little guy triumphing over the big guy, a David and Goliath sort of situation, if you will. You can't convince people like that that piracy is wrong because they're in a very deep mindset, and saying piracy is completely and utterly morally corupt isn't quite true, either. There is no line dviding bad and good and more often than not, it's not quite clear where what you're doing is.
Post by: getupkids on August 08, 2003, 04:59:30 PM
metallicas stupid because thier already popular, a lot of bands can/do benefit when people swapping music.
Post by: manunited4eva22 on August 08, 2003, 06:46:16 PM
Lets see search on kazaa for gta:vc I find..... 843 files large enough to be the whole game, 23 patches, 124 cd key hacks, and a few virus laden files.
You will find similar numbers for anything on kazaa... the means by which they are atained are in all reality the same.
Either way, you are screwing over someone, just looking for someone else to force your guilt on.
Post by: joeamis on August 19, 2003, 09:53:12 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
>>You're not screwed if you can't open .doc files, all you have to do is transfer the text which can be done very easily with a variety of software.<<
The program that transfers the text has to open and decrypt the file just like your editor has to and therefore would be illegal as well in this situation ("circumvention of copyright mechanism").
And I still don't see why ripping MP3s is legal if ripping of ROMs isn't. Both are images of existing media which are played using a special program. The media type surely doesn't matter.
If you wanted to put text from say M Word onto another word processor program, all you would have to do (it would take more time than just moving the files) is copy the text in M Word and paste it, if that ability was firewalled by M Word, than all you have to do is copy and paste into say any other program (this forum for example) then copy it from the forum and paste it into the new program... (and there is no way Microsoft would know you did this)
ripping MP3s from CD's is the only legal use of MP3s because you already own it and it's intended for play on any cd player... ripping of roms if someone makes the rom for the computer is illegal. Also if you rip the rom from the game itself, that is illegal to... that's because the game is intended for play on only the console it's made for. That's the HUGE difference between ripping MP3s and Roms...and why one is legal while the other is not.
ZELDA POSTED: I think roms should definitely be legal if you own the games you have roms of. I also don't see anything wrong with getting roms of old games that aren't sold anymore. If you were to buy those games gaming companies wouldn't make any money anyway. I think Nintendo said that roms hurt game sales... well.. I certainly don't buy any less games because I have SNES roms.
MY REPLY: Yes, but Nintendo said this when the N64 was in it's prime and emulators and roms for it were wide spread simultaneously....
Post by: KDR_11k on August 19, 2003, 10:21:22 PM
About the Word thing: That clipboard thing sounds pretty simple, agreed, but no matter how simple, you're still circumventing the mechanism that prevents you from opening the file with another program. Also, MS is feverishly working on something formerly called Palladium, which allows copyright holders to prevent you from doing that. Note thet copyright holder here doesn't necessarily mean the copyright of the file, but the copyright to the application. If you have W2k SP3+ or WXP SP1 you should've read the EULA, because MS now reserves itself the right to add this and other DRM stuff to your system without letting you know.
Post by: joeamis on August 19, 2003, 10:43:22 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
I'm not too sure about a copyrightholder being allowed to restrict the usage of the copies. There was something in an IBM vs. SCO article that suggests this. The holder might prevent you from copying their IP, but they cannot tell you not do do certain things with it. E.g. using an emulator to play a game on the CD you inserted. Also there was a quote from the copyright law that said you may make a copy 1. for archieving purposes 2. as part of a step involving interoperation (or some wording like that). Means you may install it. Could as well allow you to make a ROM to use on your PC. After all, the PC couldn't use it without making the ROM first, agreed?
About the Word thing: That clipboard thing sounds pretty simple, agreed, but no matter how simple, you're still circumventing the mechanism that prevents you from opening the file with another program. Also, MS is feverishly working on something formerly called Palladium, which allows copyright holders to prevent you from doing that. Note thet copyright holder here doesn't necessarily mean the copyright of the file, but the copyright to the application. If you have W2k SP3+ or WXP SP1 you should've read the EULA, because MS now reserves itself the right to add this and other DRM stuff to your system without letting you know.
no, copyright holder (say Nintendo for Zelda WW) restricts you from playing Zelda WW on anything except the Gamecube. Obviously we both know that playing the cd on another device is illegal then, it's also illegal to make a copy of Zelda WW...therefor it doesn't matter if they restrict your usage of the copies... because it's already illegal, they don't have to add another law against restricting uses of copies because the copies themselves are illegal!
If companies agree to Microsoft that they will not be allowed to transfer their documents from Microsoft programs to a different program they're just plain stupid. I doubt big companies agree to this term, and if they actually have they probably will just pay Microsoft a fee if they want to switch their files over, or even do it and just pay the fine. Companies can just switch their new data to a new program and keep the archives in the Microsoft program too. Also many large companies use their own programs and not Microsoft, I worked for a company that did so.
Post by: Rafalapso on August 20, 2003, 04:48:08 AM
Here in brazil, i'd say 90% of the psx games are pirated copies.
This mean that sony lost a lot of money here, right? Not exactly.
They lost a lot with the games, but they won a lot with console sales.
Because there is no pirate console, the gamers have to buy the console to play the pirate games...
My comment about "Legal uses for emulators":
First some facts:
You can't make copies of your games (not even for backup reasons they say)
You can only use emulators to play games if you have the emulated device.
Based on the 1st fact, you have to use the original media with the emulator.
But what about cartridge-based videogames?
Well, you have to use the original media anyways, so you'd have to interface the cartridge directly with the computer running the emulator.
OR, you could use a rom if you return (without money refund) the original media to the game distribuctor. (by doing this, you would turn your videogame useless, because you can't (legally) put the rom back into a cartidge...)
What about making your own games and playing them on your cartridge-based videogame?
Eeprom's can be used for this reason, but the piracy possibilites turn these kind of devices illegal...
My comment about "Piracy really hurts the big companies?"
for an example: If you had a car factory, developed a new technology to make cars more efficient and had this technology patented.
Let's say this technology was a little expensive, but paid for itself in means of economy.
You'd begin making these economic but expensive cars. Selling them well and having a little profit margin.
A car factory of another country bought one of your cars and developed a similar, but lower quality version of your technology. They start selling cars at a lower price than your cars.
Your cars begin to sell less, but still are selling.
The other company cars sell a lot more than yours, and are making more profit also.
Would you accept this situation? Another company having more profit than yours, by infringing your patent with a lower-quality copy of the same product. I bet you wouldn't.
Even if the game companies continue to sell games, they lose market and indirectly lose money with piracy. If there was no piracy, ppl who can pay for the games but don't buy originals for whatever reason, actually would buy originals if they wanted to play games...
The "Robin Hood theory" doesn't apply here. You aren't forced to play games. So if you want to play videogames and don't have enough money to pay, then get a job and start saving money...
Post by: KDR_11k on August 20, 2003, 06:52:41 AM
Law says otherwise, if they chose to disagree with law, that's their thing. However a copyright holder is not permitted to disallow backup copies. So why would e.g. making a copy of Zelda:WW for backup purposes be illegal? Just because you cannot burn it to disk with current technology? So, what if you store it to burn it when the tech becomes available? DVDs tend to fall apart after a few years (DVD rot, better check your collection!), so concerns would be justified.
Quote from a FSF lawyer (related to SCO vs. IBM case): "You don't need permission to use copyrighted work - there is no exclusive right to use, unlike in Patent law which involves the rights to 'make, use or sell'".
Slightly related: A US District Court ruled in the RIAA vs. Grokster case that Grokster was legal, because although P2P services are used for piracy, there are legal uses and a service cannot be held responsible for copyright infringement performed by its users. This was based on a court descision that ruled video recorders lawful. The same reasoning could be applied to emulators, which were IIRC the reason this thread was even forked off.
I think it's pointless to continue discussion on that Word DMCA stuff, it was just meant as an example and won't happen like that in real life.
EDIT: Accidentally wrote "privacy" instead of "piracy" once... ooops.
Post by: Uglydot on August 20, 2003, 07:16:49 AM
Post by: Caliban on August 20, 2003, 07:37:08 AM
Quote
DVDs tend to fall apart after a few years (DVD rot, better check your collection!)
What do you mean by the DVD rot? Can you explain such phenonema? Even if they do so how many years does a DVD last?
Post by: KDR_11k on August 20, 2003, 09:18:43 AM
Post by: joeamis on August 20, 2003, 03:48:29 PM
as far as brazil situation, sony doesn't make money on the consoles, they lose money, and make up for the losses with software sold.
so the piracy situation in brazil probably resulted in them losing money.
i read the article on DVD rot, it says only 1 to 10% of DVDs are affected. (probably more likely 1-5 % than 5-10 %)
the guy the article focuses on owns 350 dvds and only 4 of them have any signs of dvd rot, 4/350= 1%
it also says it's due to the poorly designed cases. So there really isn't a problem, store your games in a multi dvd case where they're not exposed= problem solved for that 1% of your dvds that may become effected. a guy who works for software etc posted on PGC forums earlier that you should store games in those 'case logic' multi cases to cut down on scratches anyways, now you have another reason. (i think his post was in the GC disk problem topic)
Post by: manunited4eva22 on August 20, 2003, 03:53:36 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on August 21, 2003, 04:29:15 AM
BTW, why didn't they sue the guys who found out how to make an ISO of it? (and why was it so hard to find out how to do that if it's detailed in the database of the USPTO anyway?)
joe: Why is it illegal?
Section 117, US Copyright Act:
(a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided:
(1) that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner, or
(2) that such new copy or adaptation is for archival purposes only and that all archival copies are destroyed in the event that continued possession of the computer program should cease to be rightful.
Like I said, (1) could be laid out to allow making a copy (in this case ROM) to use the program (Game) with a certain machine (your PC). I see no reason why games should be exempted from this rule. If you can dig up the corresponding section of the law I'd be thankful.
Post by: joeamis on August 23, 2003, 03:30:28 PM
I don't have time for that anymore, I'm busy...
it is illegal to make copies of console games
if I had time I would cite all the sources that say this but I don't.
but... it is ILLEGAL to make copies of console games, period.
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 23, 2003, 03:38:41 PM
Post by: joeamis on August 23, 2003, 04:04:46 PM
until the Govt steps in like they are now doing with kazaa
people will continue to get games free...
if you want roms and emulators get them now because in a number of years
the Govt will probably take swift action as the game industry is becoming
larger and larger
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 23, 2003, 04:30:22 PM
Besides, if you knock down one file sharing program another pops up to take it's place, plus some underdogs. After Napster went out Kazaa rose up, and after Kazaa's gone, another file sharing program will quickly rise. File sharing has a ways to go before it's gone.
Post by: manunited4eva22 on August 24, 2003, 06:10:47 AM
Post by: honda_insightful on September 14, 2003, 04:04:27 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: joeamis
it is ILLEGAL to make backup copies of games.
The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the original owner is legally entitled to make backup copies of his cassettes, videotapes, diskettes, CDs, DVDs, and on and on. That ruling includes software and games stored on CDs/DVDs. So in America at least, it is okay to backup ALL your entertainment media. You have the right to preserve your purchase in secondary/backup format.
.
Anyway, here's my opinion on the matter:
CURRENT-GEN PIRACY (PS2,GCN,XBX) = bad. Reason: It hurts the profits of these companies and damages their ability to bring out future games for us gamers.
PREVIOUS-GEN PIRACY (PS1, N64, Sega MS, Atari, etc) = okay. Reason: Since these games are out-of-print and no longer available, no harm is done or profits reduced. For example, where can I go to get a copy of Atari's Quadrun or the Sega Master System's Phantasy Star 1? Nowhere. My only option is emulation.
So, I agree with companies trying to shut down current-generation piracy, but previous generation emulation I think is perfectly acceptable.
Post by: mouse_clicker on September 14, 2003, 06:53:32 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on September 14, 2003, 07:20:24 AM
Post by: mouse_clicker on September 14, 2003, 07:36:07 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on September 14, 2003, 08:55:19 PM
Post by: honda_insightful on September 15, 2003, 02:19:25 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
Saying that it's okay to pirate older games is just stupid- would you steal an old record from a record store? No! .
Yes I would. If the old record (say a classic 1920 Jazz tune) is no longer available for purchase, I'd download it off the net for free. Same applies to old Atari & Commodore games.
And the company loses no money, because the company is not selling the product. (In this case, Atari/Commodore are both dead... so I can't hurt them!)
Post by: mouse_clicker on September 15, 2003, 03:26:46 AM
Post by: honda_insightful on September 16, 2003, 03:47:43 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
This isn't about the company losing money, it's about taking something that you didn't pay for. It doesn't matter who the money goes to, taking something without paying for it is stealing
Okay. Justify your argument. Explain why stealing an old Atari game (for example Combat) is wrong?
"Stealing is wrong" is how children think... black & white. Explain WHY it is wrong to download Combat and play it. Use ADULT arguments.
.
MY POSITION: Stealing is only wrong if someone is harmed. Since Atari is dead, my argument is that no one is harmed, therefore downloading Combat is 100% okay. (That's adult thinking.)
Another example: I abandon my car is downtown Baltimore with keys and title. Someone is 100% okay to take that abandoned car. It is not stealing.
Post by: KDR_11k on September 16, 2003, 07:50:31 AM
Post by: manunited4eva22 on September 16, 2003, 11:55:36 AM
A copyright will last for 25-50 years, and is owned by that company UNLESS THEY CHOOSE TO DEVOID IT.
Therefore, that company still owns the right to that product, and without their consent it is illegal.
Post by: mouse_clicker on September 16, 2003, 12:05:40 PM
Quote
Okay. Justify your argument. Explain why stealing an old Atari game (for example Combat) is wrong?
How can YOU justify taking something that you don't need? If you were stealing a loaf of bread so you don't starve, I can understand, but a videogame is entertainment, it's a luxury. Why SHOULDN'T you pay for it? It's not YOURS.
Quote
"Stealing is wrong" is how children think... black & white. Explain WHY it is wrong to download Combat and play it. Use ADULT arguments.
Read my posts already in this thread you idiot, namely this one:
Quote
posted by mouse_clicker Fri August 08, 2003 4:37 PM
kingvudu: While I agree with what you're saying, it's not so black and white. If you told a white lie to your spouse or someone similar to avoid getting into an argument you knew was going to go nowhere, is anyone going roast you over hot coals? If someone had murdered Hitler, would anyone had resented him? Quite the contrary, he'd be held as a hero! The only reason people hold any contempt at all for Jack Ruby is because he killed Lee Harvey Oswald before they could get any real information out of him. It's a matter of one or the other- would you rather someone kill an innocent baby at home sleeping in his crib or Osama bin Laden? You can't categorize EVERYTHING into "good" and "bad"- if everything worked that way we'd have a very mundane society. While piracy is still wrong, elevating it to the level of, say, a bank robbery is pure lunacy.
Bottom line is taking something that isn't your is THEFT, and theft is WRONG.
Quote
MY POSITION: Stealing is only wrong if someone is harmed. Since Atari is dead, my argument is that no one is harmed, therefore downloading Combat is 100% okay. (That's adult thinking.)
That's childish thinking- what if I were to take all the money out of a convenience store register while the clerk was in the bathroom? Just because he wasn't harmed doesn't mean it's not stealing his hard earned money. what if you break into someone's car while they're in the store and run off with it- is THAT okay just because no one was harmed? Of course not, and I think you'll find the cops and the judges will agree with me on that.
Quote
Another example: I abandon my car is downtown Baltimore with keys and title. Someone is 100% okay to take that abandoned car. It is not stealing.
It's still theft because they took YOUR car without asking YOU. If you gave consent, well that's all fine and dandy, but TAKING something that isn't YOURS is just plain wrong. did your parents even bother teaching you ethics?
Post by: Termin8Anakin on September 17, 2003, 06:19:43 AM
Stealing is taking something that isn't yours, without the permission or knowledge of the owner, plain and simple.
There are no conditions for it, no exceptions to the fact.
On whatever levels it's on, from taking a loaf of bread just to survive to stealing $1.5 million from a bank, it's still stealing.
manunited4ever22 is right on the copyright thing.
And once something passes into public domain, THEN it's not stealing. But then so many things claimed to be public domain it's hard to tell which really is and which is not.
Post by: mouse_clicker on September 17, 2003, 11:42:44 AM
Post by: mouse_clicker on September 17, 2003, 11:46:59 AM
Quote
it also says it's due to the poorly designed cases. So there really isn't a problem, store your games in a multi dvd case where they're not exposed
Does that mean I shouldn't keep my DVDs in their DVD cases? I don't have a case for my DVDs (I do for my CDs), but I'd definitely get one if it eliminated DVD rot.
Also, sorry for posting again- I would have just edited it into my last post, but the edit page wouldn't load.
Post by: honda_insightful on September 17, 2003, 03:05:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: mouse_clickerQuoteHow can YOU justify taking something that you don't need? If you were stealing a loaf of bread so you don't starve, I can understand, but a videogame is entertainment, it's a luxury. Why SHOULDN'T you pay for it? It's not YOURS.
Okay. Justify your argument. Explain why stealing an old Atari game (for example Combat) is wrong?
Actually, I *DID* pay for Atari's Combat 25 years ago. Both it and the console died about 5 years ago, so now I it on my PC with an Atari emulator.
So I have two questions:
(1) Since I already paid for the Combat game 25 years ago, am I entitled to keep playing it (via emulation)? Or am I just screwed because my cart blew out?
(2) If no, can you show me where I can buy a copy? Do you know the Atari address where I can buy Combat?
.
Also, let's discussed USED games. Do you think they are acceptable for purchase? Or does Nintendo have the right to forbid the sale of Mario 64 used carts?
Post by: mouse_clicker on September 17, 2003, 03:30:08 PM
And I don't see how used games have anything to do with this. Used games were purchased at one point new, played, then sold back to a retailer, who then sold it to someone else. There's no theft going on in any of those transactions- I'm not saying that when you buy a game the money HAS to go to the developer, but rather whoever you're getting it from. The retailer pays Nintendo for a shipment of games and you pay the retailer for a copy of that game.
Another friend of mine provided an excellent analogy- pirating isn't so much like shoplifting as it is like printing your own money.
Post by: honda_insightful on September 18, 2003, 02:48:55 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
Why do you need to play Combat at all?
For the same reason I listen to my old Michael Jackson Thriller album. It's a part of my childhood, and I play it because it's (a) fun and (b) nostalgia. Anyway, I PAID for the program. I should be able to continue playing it until the day I die. And I will. (And the U.S. Supreme Court says backup copies of games...like my Combat... are 100% legal.)
Besides, Atari is dead. Combat is now a PUBLIC DOMAIN program, because no one..... repeat, no one.... owns it. It's like Shakespeare's plays. Shakespeare is dead, so his work becomes the property of everyone. Likewise, Atari is dead, therefore their games become the property of everyone.
.
USED GAMES: In Europe, Nintendo and Sony tried to stop the selling of used games. They claimed that used games are harming their current profits. At first the law passed, but then it was overturned. Anyway, THAT'S why I brought up used games. You think it's harmless, but Nintendo & Sony clearly think it's wrong.
.
By the way mouse_clicker, you come across like an inexperienced teenager with virtually no knowledge of how the world actually woks. Your ignorance of copyright laws, public domain, and legal backup copies (per the U.S. Supreme Court) is sad. Maybe you should go LEARN THE LAWS before you start claiming to be an expert on them...... because you sure don't know crap about how things actually work in the adult world.
Post by: mouse_clicker on September 18, 2003, 03:31:18 AM
What you paid for was a COPY of the game, not the game itself. If your car breaks down, are you entitled to another one for free? And my ponit about why do you NEED to play Combat is that you don't NEED to at all- a videogame is a form of entertainment, it's a luxury. It's not required to live, so I don't know why you're willing to go to the ends of the earth to get what you want.
And they are NOT public domain- how the hell would you even think that? Just because it's not in production doesn't mean you can just take it. Indian doesn't make motorcycles anymore but does that mean you can just take one, since it's "public domain"? Shakespeare died almost half a millenium ago- I don't see how that applies at all to the situation. Do you even know the MEANING of the word ethics?
Seriously, if you can't understand that taking something that isn't yours without consent from the owners is stealing and that stealing is wrong, there's nothing I can do.
Post by: oohhboy on September 18, 2003, 07:53:29 AM
Any product released are made up of both in varying quantities. Games are more I.P. that say a car. As Mouse Clicker said, if a motorcycle when out of production you can just take one. Which is correct but even if you could where would ou take one from? Build one from a design of one? you can't do that either as the design is owned by the said company. But if the said design was to have no owner then yes you can make your own copy of this motorcycle as no owner means no contest.
Same goes for games, it is just the copying is easier. If a company folds over and the rights it held are not brought by anybody, then those rights would belonge to a non-existant company, ie, no one. therefore no contest.
When you buy a game you do not buy the game itself. You buy a lisence to use/play the game in it's proscribed manner. So if it breaks your screwed. But if the said company has folded and the rights have not been transferred to another owner, as before it automatically enters public domain.
As for abandonware, as long as the company/individual holds the ownership of the game and has not consented for it to be public domain whether direct action or inaction the game is still protected under the law.
Whether it is a need or not, it does not matter as that is not the point and arguing it will get you no where. Forget about it, that is more about phlosiphe than ethics.
Post by: KDR_11k on September 19, 2003, 10:04:20 AM
Abandonware might be technically illegal, but morally and practically there are no problems with using it. Atari won't sue you over Combat. And a crime is only bad when the damaged party choses to sue. Common sense might not be written into the law, but (at least outside of the USA) people apply it BEFORE starting a lawsuit. I think you're free to grab Combat off the internet, no matter what the exact wording in the law is.
BTW, there is a BIG difference between copyright infringement and theft, no matter what the RIAA tries to make you believe.
Theft is physically removing an object that is not yours like running into a shop, grabbing a game and walking out without paying.
Copyright infringement means creating a replica or derivative of another work. It involves a creative (not inventive!) process, e.g. writing the data to a medium, constructing a part out of a given material, etc. CI can even occur if you build something yourself (three out of my four released Q3A player models, for example). However, unlike theft, copyright infringement does not necessarily cause damage. I don't think Square lost a single cent just because I made a model of Tifa from Final Fantasy 7.
Post by: mouse_clicker on September 20, 2003, 08:32:07 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on September 20, 2003, 10:42:09 PM
(BTW, I didn't copy the FF7 game, I have never played it)
Post by: mouse_clicker on September 20, 2003, 11:36:20 PM
The point is, though, you're taking someone's intellectual and creative property without paying them for the right to use it. Obviously isn't as bad as actually stealing from a store, but it's still the same concept, just implimented through a different manner.
Post by: getupkids on September 24, 2003, 05:33:56 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on September 25, 2003, 09:16:49 AM
Post by: honda_insightful on October 02, 2003, 12:22:27 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
What you paid for was a COPY of the game, not the game itself.
And they are NOT public domain- how the hell would you even think that?
In 1977, there was no such distinction. You bought the GAME, Combat, not a software license.
And, since Atari is dead, no one owns Combat. That means it is public domain. That's why a site like http://www.atariguide.com can exist without fear of legal repercussions.
Post by: KnowsNothing on October 06, 2003, 12:13:09 PM
Post by: joeamis on October 14, 2003, 04:11:06 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: honda_insightfulQuote
Originally posted by: joeamis
it is ILLEGAL to make backup copies of games.
The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the original owner is legally entitled to make backup copies of his cassettes, videotapes, diskettes, CDs, DVDs, and on and on. That ruling includes software and games stored on CDs/DVDs. So in America at least, it is okay to backup ALL your entertainment media. You have the right to preserve your purchase in secondary/backup format.
i'll take your word for it but does that apply to propriety cartridges, cds, and dvds?
i remember back in the snes days a company sold a backup device mainstream and was sued by nintendo, nintendo won the case.
Post by: Bill Aurion on October 14, 2003, 04:13:39 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on October 14, 2003, 09:25:02 PM
Post by: joeamis on October 16, 2003, 11:51:15 AM
but it's ok to have backups?!?!?!?!
Post by: KDR_11k on October 18, 2003, 07:11:46 AM
Post by: Uglydot on October 18, 2003, 11:34:49 AM
Post by: manunited4eva22 on October 18, 2003, 12:18:27 PM
Post by: marikhyuko on November 06, 2004, 07:58:16 PM
Yes priacy is definately wrong, but really there is nothing we can do about it. The only thing we can do is complain.
Right now I am studying Video Game Development in college, and found some really interesting facts on video game priacy alone.
Check this out... The information below are from instructor that has been working for a while in the gaming industries.
"The ESA estimates $ 3.2 billion in sales are lost as a result of game piracy. With the money lost to piracy, U.S. game publishers could have developed about 1,600 new high quality games."
Wow 3.2 billion$, dont' believe the numbers?
Try taking 1 million piracy copy games and multiply by average cost of 35$. Thats 35 Million$ per year. Thats only 1 company number, now take that multiply by 5. Thats 175 Million Dollar.
How about not 35$ per copy, and 1 million piracy copy games
Lets try 20$ for 1 retal version game, and 500,000 piracy copy games
Thats 10 Million dollar loss per game develope for a single company.
The priacy number I show isn't very realistic, but you get the picture. If all 100+ company were to combine their number it'll sum up somewhere near 3.2 billion$, if not more.
Still not convince that priacy aren't a problem?
Check out this fact...
"The Top 10
These are single games, not franchises.
According to GameState magazine, as of May 21, 2003…
10) Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone (PSX) Sold 8 million copies
9) Grand Theft Auto: Vice City (PS2) 8.5 million copies
8) Super Mario Bros. 2 (NES 10 million copies
7) The Sims (PC) 10 million copies
6) Super Mario 64 (N64) 11 million copies
5) Super Mario Land (Game Boy) 14 million copies
4) Super Mario World (SNES) 17 million copies
3) Super Mario Bros. 3 (NES) 18 million copies
2) Tetris (Game Boy) 33 million copies
1) Super Mario Bros. (NES) 40 million copies"
Another interesting fact...
NES games make ridiculously a lot of money wouldn't you think?
Despite that there are less compitetion back then, but the most important part is that there is very little piracy back then.
Lets do some math and calculate how much money 40 million copies is..
40 million, let say it cost 10$, the answer is obvious 400 million $
Now lets take a game that is easily pirate, the first cd rom games on the list (The SIMS) 10 million copies, and multiply that by average 40$ per pop... Thats...400 million $ wow, just as much money but the cost is 4 times more, and sold 4 times less.
Keep in mine the time which those 2 games are made
Mario Bro somewhat in the 1980s, and the sims is late 1990s. The currency exchange dramatically increase between that time, so it is not suprising that the sims can make as much as mario bro. If the currency back in 1980s worth as much as the late 1990s, image how much mario bro would make 40million times 40$ = 1.6 billion $.
Thats only if there were no piracy. If there were piracy back then, 10% of that profit would be gone. 400 million $ x 0.10 = 40 million $, that equal to 1$ per copy.
Still think piracy are not an issue.
How about now?
I am sure one of your favorite games are on this list
11) GoldenEye (N64) - 8 Million
12) Donkey Kong Country (SNES) - 8 Million
13) Super Mario Kart (SNES) - 8 Million
14) Pokemon Red/Blue (Game Boy) - 8 Million
15) Half-Life (PC) - 8 Million
16) Tomb Raider II (PSX) - 8 Million
17) Final Fantasy VII (PSX) - 7.8 Million
18) Myst (PC) - 7 Million
19) Gran Turismo 3 (PS2) - 7 Million
20) Dragon Warrior VII (PSX) - 6 Million
Dreamcast: Shenmue II (100, 000 copies)
GameCube: Metroid Prime (Over 1 million copies
Xbox: Halo (2 million copies)
Notice cd copy games has awefully low selling rate, in comparison to cartiage?
Take some time and think about the facts, before questioning the current issue about piracy, is worst then you think.
Post by: UncleBob on November 06, 2004, 08:07:52 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on November 06, 2004, 08:53:31 PM
Counterfeits are something different. A counterfeit is often sold for retail price and the buyer believes it is genuine (why do you think MS has all those holograms on their CDs and that "certificate of authencity"?). The buyer definitely had the intention of paying for the game but the counterfeiters tricked them out of that money. But counterfeiters are nowhere near these numbers.
Post by: MattVDB on November 06, 2004, 11:46:24 PM
"There is only one logical integration of all these statistics with the recent Soundscan data: even though actual point-of-purchase sales are up by about 9% in the US--and the industry sold over 13,000,000 more units in 2004 (1st quarter) than in 2003 (1st quarter)--the Industry is still claiming a loss of 7% because RIAA members shipped 7% fewer records than in 2003.
Forget the confusing percentages, here's an oversimplified example: I shipped 1000 units last year and sold 700 of them. This year I sold 770 units but shipped only 930 units. I shipped 10% less units this year. And this is what the RIAA wants the public to accept as 'a loss.'"
http://blogs.magnatune.com/buckman/2004/04/record_sales_up.html
Could people be playing the same number shifting with current software? I have reason to believe.
Post by: UncleBob on November 07, 2004, 04:21:34 AM
Post by: marikhyuko on November 07, 2004, 05:06:15 AM
Similiarly with animes, the people I talk to so far in school all have download version Naruto, no one ever has a single legal single copy episodes in a box. Lets say 4 episode on a dvd cost 500yen (Which is like 5$ canadian, maybe less), now multiply 25 dvds (100 episodes) thats 125$ down the drain for the artist for their hardwork. Thats only 1 person pirating it. Take that 125$ multiply by thousands and million people. Now I just made up that 500 yen thing just to make my point.
People who download games, anime, software, will not then go buy them. Thats that.
I talked to many people about this, and they can care less. If they like to keep this up, all I got to say is. GOOD BYE games GOOD BYE anime.
Post by: KDR_11k on November 07, 2004, 06:01:53 AM
marikhyuko: Bullshit. People with enough disposable income to spend on games or anime will still buy them. That guy who didn't buy Naruto (maybe because it isn't available on a DVD that works in a region 1 DVD player or because without subtitles it's of zero use for him?) might have blown all his cash on that Dragon Ball box set already. Or perhaps he tried to buy Naruto, got a counterfeit (fansubbed) and lost his money on that but still didn't register as a sale?
There are people who stopped buying originals because they can pirate them but those are few. Many still buy a few originals and don't have the money for more.
And besides, piracy has never driven a company into bankrupcy because no matter how many pirates there are there will always be millions of legitimate buyers as long as your product has sufficient quality (means Acclaim died because they delivered crap, not because everybody copied their games). A product that can sell will sell, pirates won't stop that from happening.
By the logic of the lobbyists the creative industries died out at least three times over. With MCs nobody bought music as they all could record it from the radio, with VHS nobody went to the movies as they could record them off TV and with Cd and DVD burners nobody bothered with buying anything at all because you could pirate everything, oh, and then the internet killed the dead corpses all over again. Know which part of this didn't happen? Why do we see such large industries controlling our governments now? Shouldn't they have died decades ago? Yet they are here to stay.
The movie industry is stagnant because they rehash the same BS over and over again, because by now everybody knows the four or five plotlines Hollywood can think up, the music industry is stagnant because 1. people finished migrating from records to CD adn 2. less CDs get released. The game market died because everyone was sick of the same bad games over and over again, before Nintendo revived it.
Rehashes, the feeling that everything has already been done and we are only seeing things we have already seen, lack of innovation, that's what kills the industries, not pirates. That's why the DS and Revolution are different, Nintendo doesn't want to be under the roof of rehashes when it all comes crashing down. They are preparing for the worst. Maybe others should take notice.
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on November 07, 2004, 06:04:44 AM
EDIT: And the sad thing is most consumers dont care if they buy pirated games.
Post by: KDR_11k on November 07, 2004, 09:13:48 AM
