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Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: Evan_B on April 26, 2015, 03:16:53 AM
Title: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Evan_B on April 26, 2015, 03:16:53 AM
So as I'm sure we've all noticed, Nintendo is banking hard on Splatoon renewing interest in the Wii U, with a heavy marketing focus and bundles abound. But the game is is riddled with poor design choices and an unappealing art style despite being a marked departure from what the company is known for. Likewise, XCX and Devil's Third look to be on track for release before the end of the year but they're both niche titles that probably won't do well or attract a new audience. Catering to Platinum fans hasn't helped, and the Wii U is already clogged with 2D platformers, so I doubt Wooly World will make much of a splash.
What COULD Nintendo do to turn this situation around? Amiibo are selling out but that doesn't mean Wii U's are flying off the shelves with them. What game would make non-believers sit back and say "maybe I should give this a try"? Opinions are always welcome, but I'd also like to think of the broader audience as well. Splatoon is different, but it's still very Nintendo- in other words, archaic, but most likely polished. What kind of game does the Wii U need to sway it's chances in the market? The obvious answer would be third party support, but what sort? What would be a must-have for the masses? A must-have for you?
Title: Re: What COULD save the Wii U?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on April 26, 2015, 04:02:08 AM
Nothing's going to save the Wii U at this point. Even if Nintendo hadn't played all their cards at last year's E3 and third parties inexplicably all jumped back onboard, it's too late to make a huge difference now.
I think things like Splatoon could cushion the fall, though. The Wii U has a really good library of games at this point, and if they can continue offering things there aren't real analogs for on other platforms, that combined with a price cut could get some people to bite.
Like the whole "Wii60" idea from the last gen, Nintendo offering a good selection of things you won't find elsewhere could sell some people on it as a second console.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Evan_B on April 26, 2015, 04:09:35 AM
Duly noted. 2016 will likely be the Wii Us last year so I've changed the title to reflect that.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Adrock on April 26, 2015, 08:17:18 AM
I don't agree at all with your assessment of Splatoon. I really like the art style and design choices (lack of online voice chat notwithstanding). It's a shooter that's very different from all the other shooters on other consoles, and one I can probably actually play since it's third person. Different strokes, I guess.
What could have saved Wii U is the same thing that can save NX: collectively making the best gaming experience for consumers and third parties because Nintendo itself can make great software on anything so it should focus outside of itself. Nintendo can't just throw the highest spec hardware together because that isn't smart. Developers may rejoice, but if it's too expensive, consumers will refuse to buy it. Look at 3DS. Nintendo asked for feedback from third parties (good) then priced the hardware beyond what most people felt was acceptable (bad). Ultimately, Nintendo should get feedback and release hardware that is beneficial to all parties. Communication is key.
Nintendo got all the basics wrong with Wii U, things the company has been getting right for decades. It lacked first party games and the system software was just flat-out awful so it was slow and not user friendly. A first world problem for sure but a problem nonetheless. I'd like see a modern console be capable for going from off to the main menu to the start screen in a game in 10 seconds or less.
Sadly, it took Nintendo like a year and a half to fix. Wii U started to be a good console after Mario Kart 8 and a couple major operating system updates were released. That is way too late. Even when it was clear Wii U was stumbling, Nintendo had no sense of urgency. Logically, it should always operate with a sense of urgency because of how easy it is to fall behind in this industry and how difficult it is to catch up (so difficult that companies seem to bide their time until the next hardware cycle begins). I don't mean to say Nintendo should rush its games. Rather, for example, perhaps the Aonuma's Zelda team shouldn't have spent a year porting Wind Waker. Outsource it to a capable developer, keep an eye on that team's progress, and focus on getting the new Zelda out in the timelinest fashion because that new Zelda is the important one.
Summary 1. Communicate 2. Get the basics right 3. Have a sense of urgency
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: lolmonade on April 26, 2015, 10:05:38 AM
Splatoon seems like something perfect for the F2P model, fairly generic characters with an interesting co-op shooter concept. If they had a good enough install base of the Wii U, I think it'd be the perfect opportunity for them to push-install the game to your Wii U to entice you, and offer alternate character models, costumes, other cosmetic changes to the game as micro transactions. I hope I hear differently after launch, but current info on it makes it difficult to see how much value I'd get out of the game. I'd be much more likely to buy it if there was an easy way to try it out first to see if the game is better than I expect.
Wii U is beyond "saving" at this point. Nintendo has produced some of their best games in a while on the Wii U, and that hasn't caught them up to the competition. Nintendo's in a strange position. The Wii was hugely successful because it deviated from the competition and sparked people's interest in motion control with a very successful proof of concept (Wii Sports). Wii U tried to be different by the gamepad, but by the time it released, tablets & touchscreen smart phones are ubiquitous, so while Nintendo may have seen it as a way to extend the success of their DS line of handhelds, I think many others saw it as "oh, they're aping off the success of iPad games.
If they're going to continue their trend of deviation from the competition, they need to create a value proposition to all gamers, not just Nintendo enthusiasts. I think Wii U shows us how Nintendo's systems do now with just core Nintendo fans buying-in, which is probably a very concerning thing to Nintendo. And that's the challenge I don't have an answer to, otherwise I'd be approaching Nintendo looking for a job.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 26, 2015, 10:56:52 AM
Splatoon will sell miserably even thought it looks pretty cool. It's a squirt gun FPS. I don't think there's anything Nintendo could have done, other than releasing the console several years earlier.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: broodwars on April 26, 2015, 11:04:02 AM
To add on to what Adrock said (because he mostly nailed it), to me the key thing Nintendo didn't do was prepare to make HD games. They openly stated early in the Wii U's lifespan that 1st party games were taking longer to make because they weren't used to making HD games and weren't prepared for the kind of resources and time it takes to make them. They also didn't expand their 1st party studios so they had the manpower to support the Wii U by themselves, if need be (like Sony did with the early years of the PS3). Finally, they once again basically ignored 3rd parties and made no attempt to court them, so when the sales dried up so did the 3rd party support.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Triforce Hermit on April 26, 2015, 11:11:02 AM
More multiplayer games. The only console that doesn't require a stupid online pass and there is very little that takes advantage of that. Its a waste of potential. Sure Splatoon, Xenoblade, and Devil's Third will take advantage of it, but that is too little to late. A huge portion of the gaming community loves multiplayer. Nintendo isn't taking enough advantage of that and they don't have enough notable games for their online. Wii U had the potential to become a primary console, but instead people see it as a secondary because they want multiplayer and they have to look elsewhere.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: ShyGuy on April 26, 2015, 01:19:17 PM
The Wii U had MULTIPLE software title stumbles in the first year of its life. If those had went right, not to mention the EA 'taking there toys and going home' that seemed to happen, Wii U would be in a different position now.
I talked about it back in July 2013! http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=42192.0
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Nile Boogie Returns on April 26, 2015, 07:50:51 PM
"Proper planning prevents piss poor performance!"
Nintendo could have saved the Wii U with 4GB of RAM. To be more specific: Underestimating the the difficulty in producing HD games, Designing a most inefficient OS and cheeping out on the specs while not showing what the Gamepad was truly useful for.
With that being said, its still a better pound for pound console than the other 2 nextgen systems but suspect that margin to be closed by summers end.
The Name didn't help either. Didn't bother me none but alotta folks were confuzzled.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Luigi Dude on April 26, 2015, 08:11:54 PM
It also helps not to completely take away hype from you're biggest launch title by releasing a similar game just 3 months earlier. Actually that's been the biggest problem for the Wii U in general, the majority of it's biggest games are having similar games released earlier on the much cheaper and popular 3DS. The Wii U's biggest competition hasn't been the Playstation or Xbox, it's been the 3DS. Since Nintendo's main audience is kids and casuals who don't mind playing on handhelds, they don't exactly have a compelling reason to spend hundreds of dollars more to buy a Wii U just to get similar experiences.
I mean think about it, if the GBA was capable of releasing the same type of 3D games that the Gamecube could, the Gamecube probably would have done Wii U level numbers. At least back then, more Nintendo fans had to buy the home console since that was the system for the 3D Nintendo games because the handheld only had 2D. But now, the handheld is getting almost as many 3D games as the home console which is taking away a lot of their home consoles appeal.
Yeah now the Wii U has been getting more unique software but as everyone has already said it's to late. Nintendo needs to make sure the next home console gets a lot more unique first party titles from the start to really separate itself.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: ThePerm on April 26, 2015, 08:29:58 PM
i kinda have a feeling Splatoon will do better than we all think. Its one of those games someones going to bring to a party and then it becomes popular like smash bros.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Mop it up on April 26, 2015, 08:31:13 PM
Honestly, I feel Nintendo have made so many mistakes with the Wii U, that there was and still is no saving it. The only way Nintendo could have done better is if they made an entirely different system with different choices. Wii U was never a good product and is selling as such.
That said, I don't feel like the PS4 and XBONE should be selling well either.
Also, the OP is way too harsh on Splatoon. The game looks good to me.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: ShyGuy on April 26, 2015, 09:53:12 PM
Luigi Dude, you make a googe point about the 3DS. That is why I think the software is going to be unified between console and portable next time around. I don't think NX is going to be a hybrid anymore, because Nintendo is going to want to sell two devices with the same libraries, like the iPhone and the iPad.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Adrock on April 26, 2015, 10:19:16 PM
I don't think NX is going to be a hybrid anymore, because Nintendo is going to want to sell two devices with the same libraries, like the iPhone and the iPad.
I've been meaning to start a new thread entirely around this concept. A hybrid paints Nintendo into a corner and forces it to make compromises it may not want to make. A console and a handheld that play the same games makes the most sense for Nintendo and solves a big problem: supporting two platforms. Scalable engines and DLC make this much easier for the company to go down this route. I think Nintendo would still prefer to sell two Mario Karts or two Super Smash Bros. to people, but it's getting harder to justify from both a development and consumer perspective. With the blurring of console and handheld games over the past 10 years or so, I feel like this is the best case scenario.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: nickmitch on April 26, 2015, 10:27:10 PM
I think making a system with built-in compromises is a bad idea. It's been holding them back this gen, and it won't be a good way to kick off a new system.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Spak-Spang on April 26, 2015, 10:48:16 PM
Compromises always exist. You have to decide if the advancement you want to pursue is worth the compromise. For the Wii the technology a new concept, and it was better for Nintendo to compromise on specs just in case the system's motion controls are not a bigger seller. That gamble paid off for Nintendo in spades...and looking back, Nintendo could have had a more powerful system.
Now, the Wii U came along and Nintendo needed to make compromises again...this game the compromises were for the actual technology being used not just for the gamble of whether the gimmick would work. Unfortunately the gimmick didn't catch on as quickly and the compromises crippled the system.
In the end, the system failed for several reasons, but that being said, none of the reasons it failed is because of poor games. The Wii U has a very strong library of Nintendo published games...perhaps their best games in years, and IF Nintendo continues to release great games, the library will just get more compelling as it ages. I see the Wii U really being the Dreamcast console. It is a console that never caught on but has some of the best games that fans really remember and cherish.
The question I have is if the Wii U console ends early, will Nintendo re-release those games on another console? Or will it be backwards compatible or will some of the best Nintendo games of 2 generations be locked away on an unpopular system?
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Adrock on April 26, 2015, 10:53:00 PM
I think making a system with built-in compromises is a bad idea. It's been holding them back this gen, and it won't be a good way to kick off a new system.
In such a scenario, I think this carries the least amount of compromises for a company that wants to continue selling two pieces of hardware as it tackles different markets. I'd expect the console to be much more powerful than the handheld, like its always been. The console would play most if not all the games. There would likely be instances in which developers may choose to go console only if it wants/needs the extra power. Some games won't make a lot of sense on the handheld (e.g. Wii Sports) while parts of others won't (Palutena's Temple in Super Smash Bros.). For a good portion of the generation, this may work because it's kind of how it's working now. 360 and PS3 are still getting ports. If Nintendo releases a console and handheld that are a generation apart, this may not be too farfetched. Virtual Console and most indie games would easily play on both. Like I said in another post, "Imagine if Nintendo could use the same emulator on the successors of both Wii U and 3DS."
The question I have is if the Wii U console ends early, will Nintendo re-release those games on another console? Or will it be backwards compatible or will some of the best Nintendo games of 2 generations be locked away on an unpopular system?
Based on what Nintendo has been saying over the past couple years, it wants to make porting easier. I'd be surprised if Nintendo's console was hardware backwards compatible because I see it moving away from PowerPC and it would have to include the hardware to make this possible. If Nintendo goes the same library on console/handheld route, I'd imagine it'd be forced to drop discs in favor of cards as digital downloads continue to become more popular.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on April 26, 2015, 11:03:00 PM
That plan gives them most of the advantages of the hybrid concept without some of the biggest drawbacks. They simplify development across platforms, give developers a wider user base to go after, without having to make the hardware cuts necessary to allow the one hybrid system to be portable. If they start from that, make an effort to involve third parties in the process of designing the hardware, and don't launch it as late in the cycle as they did with Wii U, they might have something.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: nickmitch on April 26, 2015, 11:08:53 PM
Compromises always exist. You have to decide if the advancement you want to pursue is worth the compromise.
Compromises on the Wii hurt Nintendo on the Wii U. A non-HD system that gen poorly prepared them for having an HD console this gen. Compromises on the Wii U are hurting the Wii U now. There's no telling what the total effects will be going forward.
In the hybrid scenario, are we making a console that isn't as powerful as it could be, so that it can be portable? Or are we making a handheld that's not-quite-that portable (e.g., is too bulky or has a short battery life)? What kind of cost effects does this have on the storage medium? Disks? Carts? Almost nobody is going to carry full sized CDs, but how much would full-sized costs? Going digital only? Are retailers still going to want to give you shelf space?
There's compromise everywhere. And while it's true that it'll always be there, there's some that Nintendo shouldn't have room for next time around.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: ShyGuy on April 26, 2015, 11:30:46 PM
I think if you have the right hardware and software, you can scale decently.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Soren on April 27, 2015, 12:41:41 AM
Compromises always exist. You have to decide if the advancement you want to pursue is worth the compromise.
In the hybrid scenario, are we making a console that isn't as powerful as it could be, so that it can be portable? Or are we making a handheld that's not-quite-that portable (e.g., is too bulky or has a short battery life)? What kind of cost effects does this have on the storage medium? Disks? Carts? Almost nobody is going to carry full sized CDs, but how much would full-sized costs? Going digital only? Are retailers still going to want to give you shelf space?
No. You're making an OS that's compatible across all platforms, hopefully cutting development costs and being able to scale performance to specific targets with ease. The console is still a console, and ditto the handheld, but they all exists in the same space, regardless of whether they use discs, carts, cards or digital media to store the software.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Evan_B on April 27, 2015, 12:56:15 AM
i kinda have a feeling Splatoon will do better than we all think. Its one of those games someones going to bring to a party and then it becomes popular like smash bros.
Impossible, since co-op is split-screen only and nothing like multiplayer. Also, I don't think it's necessary to defend my viewpoint on Splatoon, but I will anyway: Nintendo's first foray features no friend matchmaking, no custom rule sets, no voice chat, already-confirmed DLC and gated Amiibo content, and a decidedly in-Nintendo aesthetic outside of having colors. It's a novel concept but delivered with mediocrity, likely a result of the game being rushed to have a title for May.
I do agree with the 3DS competition- most games are getting sequels on Wii U and that has lessened their impact. However, I would also say that the majority of Nintendo's exciting releases for the console didn't land until way after they were announced too.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Spak-Spang on April 27, 2015, 01:00:12 AM
Compromises always exist. You have to decide if the advancement you want to pursue is worth the compromise.
Compromises on the Wii hurt Nintendo on the Wii U. A non-HD system that gen poorly prepared them for having an HD console this gen. Compromises on the Wii U are hurting the Wii U now. There's no telling what the total effects will be going forward.
In the hybrid scenario, are we making a console that isn't as powerful as it could be, so that it can be portable? Or are we making a handheld that's not-quite-that portable (e.g., is too bulky or has a short battery life)? What kind of cost effects does this have on the storage medium? Disks? Carts? Almost nobody is going to carry full sized CDs, but how much would full-sized costs? Going digital only? Are retailers still going to want to give you shelf space?
There's compromise everywhere. And while it's true that it'll always be there, there's some that Nintendo shouldn't have room for next time around.
The Wii was not the problem with gearing up to make HD games. If Nintendo were smart they could have had teams working on HD preparation awhile ago. Whatever happened to them designing models that would be ready for dropping into games? They should have used the Wii generation as a time to spend prepping their development teams for HD, but they didn't. The Wii could have been SD and bought Nintendo the time necessary to properly prepare for a true HD generation and market. It was not the Wii it was bad management and poor vision for future generations and game development.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: ThePerm on April 27, 2015, 03:19:21 AM
yeah the whole "we weren't ready for hd" thing is a crock of ****. No excuses should be made. These are technical people, they should be capable of doing hd. Its harder to streamline your flow for more limited content than to work with higher powered content. There is a problem with management, where they aren't hiring enough people, projects are falling behind, and are not complete on time. If 3 or 4 really good games need to be made per year than they need to be ready every year. If you think about it Nintendo was a lot better at supplying games for wii than wii u. Twilight Princess came out with wii u launch, mario galaxy 1 and 2 became available, metroid was there, mario kart.
on the other hand people are being extra harsh right now. I'm kinda happy with the new Mario Kart DLC, Splatoon is on its way, and Xenosaga looks amazing. Zelda will be out next year, theres a star fox on the way. What type of surprises can we expect at e3?
Wii U will be year 4 next year, and that is as long as console needs to be out. Comparing it to Nintendo's other consoles, it is similar to gamecube in a lot of ways. Gamecube had better third party support. On the other had despite this, I actually bought a lot of third party wii u games. The wii u at least started with better support.
Moving on might be the best thing Nintendo can do. If i were in charge, i would keep things simple. I would release a console with better graphics than ps4 and xbox one. I would keep the controller the same, I wouldnt change anything there. I would continue to support backwards compatability. Id extend it to gamecube of course. One thing Nintendo would want to do is release some sort of controller/handheld hybrid. Do the scalability thing. Keeping it simple would be the way yo go. I think for the most part Nintendo did everything right except getting games on the system. Nintendo needs to make sure there are lots and lots of games on the system.
e3 predictions: Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 hd. Unlike Wind Waker Mario Galaxy is already gorgeous and all they need to do is bump up the resolution.
if there was a mario galaxy 3 it would probably be on nx ready for launch. The whole mario 3dland/world stuff never appealed to me.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Triforce Hermit on April 27, 2015, 06:09:51 AM
Also, I don't think it's necessary to defend my viewpoint on Splatoon, but I will anyway: Nintendo's first foray features no friend matchmaking, no custom rule sets, no voice chat, already-confirmed DLC and gated Amiibo content, and a decidedly in-Nintendo aesthetic outside of having colors. It's a novel concept but delivered with mediocrity, likely a result of the game being rushed to have a title for May.
I disagree. It's delivered poorly because it's Nintendo. I usually wouldn't use that excuse, but their reasons for no voice chat support it.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Enner on April 27, 2015, 07:26:59 AM
So the gist of what I'm getting from the above posts is that the Wii U could have been saved if Nintendo wasn't the Nintendo it has been since N64 and was instead some amalgamation of the successful aspects of their competitors :p Yeah, that's spot on for me.
I am dismayed by the poor forecast and belittlement given to Splatoon, but I come from a position of being enamored and excited by Splatoon and its prospects. While time will soon tell whether my beliefs will lead to folly, I believe that Splatoon is unquestionably the most important game for Nintendo to make in the past five years, maybe eight. I see it doing so many things fans and critics have asked from Nintendo: a new world with new characters, a genre they have never made a game in, a best-selling type of game that never had first-party representation, and a big, bold bet of a retail product that has the highest amount of weight behind it for a new gamble. I will admit that it is because of these conditions that every misstep that Splatoon makes is greatly magnified. It will be unfortunate when Splatoon comes out and its offerings compare woefully to those of Gears of War 3 or the latest Call of Duty. But Nintendo is behind in this curve and they have to start somewhere.
"Nintendo is behind the curve."
Heh, I think that sums up all our frustrations and criticism of the company and many of their products and services, eh?
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Evan_B on April 27, 2015, 09:06:20 AM
Where Nintendo has been behind the curve for some time, the blow was cushioned during the Wii days because third parties wanted to develop for the system and, whether you liked it or not, Nintendo tried many things to make their games interesting via motion control.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Triforce Hermit on April 27, 2015, 10:29:30 AM
I genuinely believe Splatoon will be a good game, but it is not going to garner Mario Kart or Smash popularity. Also, a lot of bad decisions are being made which will hold it back because it is trying to enter the online FPS genre and it is missing a lot of which every other franchise already offers.
In other words, it will be a Nintendo game.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Adrock on April 27, 2015, 10:44:24 AM
So the gist of what I'm getting from the above posts is that the Wii U could have been saved if Nintendo wasn't the Nintendo it has been since N64 and was instead some amalgamation of the successful aspects of their competitors :p Yeah, that's spot on for me.
In a sense, maybe. I think the worst part is Nintendo wasn't even being Nintendo well so the things Nintendo always got right it suddenly got wrong. What's a Nintendo console without Nintendo games? What's a Nintendo console that's a pain in the ass to navigate? We used insert the cartridges and play right away. With Wii U, Nintendo was like, "We have one first party game for the first eight months or so and it's a sequel to a game that came out three months ago. Also, it takes 30 seconds to get to the start screen. Enjoy." What the hell is that? Why did Nintendo think that was a winning combination? On top of getting just about everything else wrong, Nintendo forgot how to Nintendo.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: UncleBob on April 27, 2015, 11:19:57 AM
Wii U Super amiibo bundle.
Wii U System + 5 amiibo - Villager, Mewtwo, Lucas, Little Mac and Peach. Villager is a female deco, Little Mac is wire frame deco, Peach is Daisy deco, Lucas and Mewtwo are exclusive to this bundle.
Face it - people are already paying $100+ for figures. Nintendo might as well get in on that action too.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Soren on April 27, 2015, 01:01:59 PM
Wii U System + 5 amiibo - Villager, Mewtwo, Lucas, Little Mac and Peach. Villager is a female deco, Little Mac is wire frame deco, Peach is Daisy deco, Lucas and Mewtwo are exclusive to this bundle.
Face it - people are already paying $100+ for figures. Nintendo might as well get in on that action too.
/thread.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Luigi Dude on April 27, 2015, 01:35:57 PM
I genuinely believe Splatoon will be a good game, but it is not going to garner Mario Kart or Smash popularity. Also, a lot of bad decisions are being made which will hold it back because it is trying to enter the online FPS genre and it is missing a lot of which every other franchise already offers.
It doesn't need to in order to be a success though. Mario Kart 8 is already at round 5 million copies sold with Smash Bros probably closer to 4 million and both games continue to grow every month. Nintendo isn't trying to appeal to the Call of Duty/Halo audience, they're trying to appeal to their own Mario/Smash, where the lack of things like voice chat aren't going to be that big a deal.
Yeah Splatoon isn't going to reach those numbers but just appealing to a small fraction of that audience can still give it a good chance of being a million seller in the end which will be great considering it's a new IP and all.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Ian Sane on April 27, 2015, 01:50:57 PM
So the gist of what I'm getting from the above posts is that the Wii U could have been saved if Nintendo wasn't the Nintendo it has been since N64 and was instead some amalgamation of the successful aspects of their competitors :p Yeah, that's spot on for me.
N64 Nintendo was a better Nintendo than Wii U Nintendo. I feel like since the N64 the company has just steadily gotten worse. They never seem to learn from their mistakes and keep introducing new bad habits. It's a company that has never made any serious attempt at self-improvement so they just dig themselves deeper and deeper into a hole. And with the Wii they made tons of mistakes but the system was so successful it didn't affect their bottom line. Don't try that hard + **** up a bunch = $$$$$$$$? That's not a good "lesson" for a company to learn, particularly one that already had a very deluded sense of their own infallibility.
The plan for the Wii U should just be to survive until a successor is released. Now to actually do the NX right is going to take tons of work. They need to do a very humble and honest self-assessment where they determine which mistakes of the last 20 years were made and what they should have done instead and what they would logically be doing today if they hadn't made that mistake. What would Nintendo be like in 2015 if they actually addressed mistakes along the way? I don't think they would be Sony. They should have elements of Sony. Like some stuff is just so obvious that any company with half-a-brain would do it that way and Nintendo need not do things in some weird ass Nintendo way just because everyone else came across the obvious way to do to it first. Nintendo's true identity is in the things they do (or did) well, not in the things they do poorly. Having terrible third party support or outdated crappy online for example isn't some key part of Nintendo where we would lose Nintendo's identity if they fixed it. If Nintendo's faults are part of why you like them you're nuts and Nintendo will go broke catering to your insanity. Making great games? Making creative games? Yeah, those are parts of Nintendo's identity that shouldn't be messed with. Those should stay the same but the stupid **** no one likes should go.
Part of how the hybrid idea appeals to me is that I feel that Nintendo needs up-to-date hardware but they clearly don't WANT to do that. It feels like with the Gamecube Nintendo found their hardware comfort zone. I don't think outdated hardware is going to sell on a console. Nintendo probably won't go third party. They like the weaker hardware of a handheld and they clearly get that side of the business better than consoles but since I prefer to play on consoles Nintendo as a handheld-only company doesn't work well for me. The hybrid lets them be effectively handheld-only while I still can hook things up to my TV. It's a good compromise between what I want out of Nintendo and what Nintendo seems to want to do. I also think the first successful implementation of that concept will change the industry. My rationale for that is entirely that the hardware improvements become less obvious with each generation so each generation gets longer and has less justification for even existing. Handhelds need "inferior" tech so it can be shrunk down and use less energy so they fall behind in the arms race with consoles. But if console hardware plateaus then handhelds have a chance to catch up and if both are technologically the same it is arbitrary that they are different at all. Might as well make them the same. The first company to deliver that will reap the rewards.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: nickmitch on April 27, 2015, 02:38:08 PM
I genuinely believe Splatoon will be a good game, but it is not going to garner Mario Kart or Smash popularity. Also, a lot of bad decisions are being made which will hold it back because it is trying to enter the online FPS genre and it is missing a lot of which every other franchise already offers.
It doesn't need to in order to be a success though. Mario Kart 8 is already at round 5 million copies sold with Smash Bros probably closer to 4 million and both games continue to grow every month. Nintendo isn't trying to appeal to the Call of Duty/Halo audience, they're trying to appeal to their own Mario/Smash, where the lack of things like voice chat aren't going to be that big a deal.
Yeah Splatoon isn't going to reach those numbers but just appealing to a small fraction of that audience can still give it a good chance of being a million seller in the end which will be great considering it's a new IP and all.
But isn't going for only Nintendo's audience a problem? Shouldn't the goal of major software releases be to move hardware units as well? At least in some small capacity?
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on April 27, 2015, 02:41:38 PM
Quote from: Ian Sane
N64 Nintendo was a better Nintendo than Wii U Nintendo.
This is just complete rose-tinted nostalgia. This is a Nintendo that pissed off everyone by going with cartridges instead of CDs, and went out of their way to drive away third parties. This is what Nintendo has always been, even when they were successful. They haven't gotten worse, they just lost the ability to get away with ****.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Ian Sane on April 27, 2015, 03:32:08 PM
N64 Nintendo was a better Nintendo than Wii U Nintendo.
This is just complete rose-tinted nostalgia. This is a Nintendo that pissed off everyone by going with cartridges instead of CDs, and went out of their way to drive away third parties. This is what Nintendo has always been, even when they were successful. They haven't gotten worse, they just lost the ability to get away with ****.
Nah, Nintendo made better first party games then. The N64 launched with Super Mario 64 and the Wii U launched with NSMB U.
Regardless, being an asshole who burns all their bridges isn't a distinctive part of Nintendo's identity that needs to be preserved.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on April 27, 2015, 03:36:07 PM
The N64 library's certainly more groundbreaking, but in terms of quality I'd argue the Wii U's pretty close to it. And I agree that's an aspect of Nintendo that they really need to fix, but it's got nothing to do with them getting worse, or Iwata, or attempts to expand into the casual market.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Luigi Dude on April 27, 2015, 04:43:34 PM
The N64 library's certainly more groundbreaking, but in terms of quality I'd argue the Wii U's pretty close to it. And I agree that's an aspect of Nintendo that they really need to fix, but it's got nothing to do with them getting worse, or Iwata, or attempts to expand into the casual market.
Groundbreaking games carry a lot of weight though. The N64 and the Wii both launched with games where there was really no other game released prior that played like them. Meanwhile the Wii U, as someone pointed out above, had a very similar 3DS game steal its thunder. It seems that people will put up with a fair bit of bullshit to gain access to some exclusive gameplay experience that no one else offers. But when you're not offering that they'll rightly reject you.
So when you think about it like that, Nintendo really needs a console that can stand on its own even if they're making good but fairly conventional games. Making groundbreaking games like Super Mario 64 is hard to do. No one can just effortlessly bust those out. But Nintendo has no safety net. If they don't deliver on those games then it's just a pretty unexceptional console with a lot of problems.
This is why the PS4 has done well and why Sony in general has done well. No their peaks are never as high as Nintendo's but you know that the general stuff will be done competently. And if Nintendo had a console where the general stuff is done well is there some reason why they couldn't still deliver the odd groundbreaking work of genius? Games as good as Nintendo's best stuff gets made on non-Nintendo systems too. Nintendo's weird stew of goofiness and stupidity isn't a requirement for great original games to be made. They slack off on the little details and cheap out and jerk around their associates and exploit their customers and avoid admitting mistakes because they're confident that they can pull the next Wii Sports out of their ass at any time and it will make up for everything else. Yet if they did the stuff right that everyone else gets right while also utilizing their talents to make consistently great first party games and the occasional industry-changing masterpiece wouldn't they be the absolute kings of the industry?
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Evan_B on April 27, 2015, 06:07:26 PM
The PS4 has barely any conventional, good games.
The Wii U has a number of titles that are equal or better in quality than the titles on the N64, the only think is that the N64 had them first.
Splatoon is not going to do well unless Nintendo cancels all other SKUs aside from the Splatoon bundle. An atop that, it's not even a good game.
Glad we all agree!
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on April 27, 2015, 06:20:18 PM
Since you apparently have an advance copy of Splatoon, can you expand a bit on your very informed opinion of the quality of the game?
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Mop it up on April 27, 2015, 06:24:27 PM
I genuinely believe Splatoon will be a good game, but it is not going to garner Mario Kart or Smash popularity. Also, a lot of bad decisions are being made which will hold it back because it is trying to enter the online FPS genre and it is missing a lot of which every other franchise already offers.
It doesn't need to in order to be a success though. Mario Kart 8 is already at round 5 million copies sold with Smash Bros probably closer to 4 million and both games continue to grow every month. Nintendo isn't trying to appeal to the Call of Duty/Halo audience, they're trying to appeal to their own Mario/Smash, where the lack of things like voice chat aren't going to be that big a deal.
Yeah Splatoon isn't going to reach those numbers but just appealing to a small fraction of that audience can still give it a good chance of being a million seller in the end which will be great considering it's a new IP and all.
If you are trying to make people buy a Wii U, you try to appeal to people who don't already have one. This game is being hyped, which is fine. Its being hyped for the wrong reason though, which is to move hardware, which it won't.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: broodwars on April 27, 2015, 06:38:11 PM
Alien: Isolation Assassin's Creed 4: Black Flag Axiom Verge Bastion Bloodborne Borderlands: The Handsome Collection Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare Chariot Counterspy Contrast DmC: Devil May Cry - Definitive Edition Dragon Age Inquisition Dust: An Elysian Tail Entwined Far Cry 4 Final Fantasy Type 0 HD FF 15 demo Flower Telltale's Game of Thrones Geometry Wars: Dimensions Giana Sisters: Twisted Dreams Guilty Gear Xrd -SIGN- Hand of Fate Infamous: Second Son + Infamous: First Light Injustice: Gods Among Us - Ultimate Edition Killzone Shadow Fall Life is Strange LittleBigPlanet 3 Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor P.T. Peggle 2 Rayman Legends Resident Evil Revelations 2 Resident Evil HD Resogun Rogue Legacy Saints Row 4: Re-Elected + Gat Out of Hell Shovel Knight Sleeping Dogs: Definitive Edition Sniper Elite 3 Strider (Remake) Strike Suit Zero: Director's Cut Tales from the Borderlands The Evil Within The Last of Us: Remastered The Last Tinker The Order 1886 (yes, I liked it, despite its issues) The Swapper The Walking Dead - Seasons 1 & 2 The Wolf Among Us Tomb Raider: Definitive Edition Towerfall Ascension Trine 1 & 2 Valiant Hearts: The Great War
Truly, that's hardly any "conventional, good games." And that's an edited version of the full list of PS4 games I own, btw.
Now if you want to add "exclusive" to that above quote, there's some truth to that. But as it stands right now I have plenty of good stuff to play on my PS4 right now.
N64 Nintendo was a better Nintendo than Wii U Nintendo.
This is just complete rose-tinted nostalgia. This is a Nintendo that pissed off everyone by going with cartridges instead of CDs, and went out of their way to drive away third parties. This is what Nintendo has always been, even when they were successful. They haven't gotten worse, they just lost the ability to get away with ****.
Basically, Nintendo has always been a shitty company, and things have just been slowly catching up to them.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Adrock on April 27, 2015, 07:06:07 PM
Now, this thread has transitioned from a pissing contest about Mario launch titles to compiling game lists. It was a fun discussion while it lasted.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: UncleBob on April 27, 2015, 07:11:28 PM
I'm not going to get into the debate over the quality of NSMBWiiU vs. SM64, but I will say this - for all the top-tier, high quality, groundbreaking frst-party titles the N64 had, it was still crushed by the competition in sales.
Meanwhile, for all the nay-saying against the Wii U, it's not too far behind the XBox One and only about half of the PS4 (yes, half isn't good, but compare N64 to PS1). And I'd say there hasn't really been an amazing, revolutionary, ground-breakng Wii U release yet.
I think folks overestimate the impact of a "System Seller". If I'm buying a $99 Game Boy, sure, Pokemon might do it. But when we're talking about dropping a couple of Franklins... I just don't see a sizable amount of people doing that.
People buy systems based on one of three things:
A.) A fan of the manufacturer/their promises of future supprort -Nintendo has pretty much tapped this group out. B) My friends have it and I want to be cool/play against them online. -Never going to get the first group and they really don't appear interested in the second. C) Man, this system has a bunch of games I want that I can't play on the system(s) I already have and it's a good price. -This is the group they need to cater to now. As was pointed out above, they've done a lot of damage putting out comparable titles on the 3DS (although Smash 3DS isn't in the same league as Smash U. Mario Kart 7 plays better, imho, but 8 is getting amazing DLC)... but this is how they fix it. One or two completely mind-blowing AAA titles isn't going to reverse their fortunes (aside from Pokemon MMO, but we already discussed that Nintendo isn't catering to an online demo). They just need as many good-to-great AA-A titles as they can get.
With that said, they need to crank out more games like Hyrule Warriors, Captain Toad, etc. They need to figure out WTF is going on with the virtual console (get every first-party NES, SNES, N64, GameCube, GB, GBC, GBA, and DS title on there tomorrow. What, we can download Wii games? Whoopte-f***in-doo. I can pop the disc in and play it. Hell, I can go buy a used Wii for $30, the game for $20, it's cheaper than buying a Wii U and I have more choices in VC titles...). They need to get with third parties and get as many of their classic titles on the system as they can. Not that I see SE getting on board, but could you imagine if they announced tomorrow that all of SE's SNES titles were coming to the Wii U? There are folks that would buy a Wii U within hours of that announcement.
Face it, Wii U isn't going to get new third party support. So, throw all the old stuff at it (F-Zero GX, AX, F-Zero X, and F-Zero X-DD coming to Wii U tomorrow!), throw some cool, new smaller titles at it (Mario Maker, Yoshi's Wooly World, Splatoon), and the occasional mega title (Zelda 201516) and it'll do just fine.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Ian Sane on April 27, 2015, 07:26:55 PM
Splatoon gives me a Paper Mario vibe. I like Paper Mario so that could be read as a compliment but I'm not really remarking on either game's quality.
Paper Mario was one of literally two RPGs released for the N64. RPGs were never bigger than they were that gen and the N64 had pretty much nothing representing the genre at all. Paper Mario didn't feel like a typical RPG. It felt like the anti-RPG that made fun of RPGs. It felt like it was made specifically for N64 fanboys that crapped on RPGs. RPGs were not a Nintendo thing so the Nintendo RPG was something that would pretty much not appeal at all to the RPG fans on competing consoles.
Splatoon gives me that vibe. Nintendo does not do shooters. Despite being undoubtedly the most popular type of game around these days (like RPGs were when Paper Mario came out) the genre is pretty damn unrepresented on Nintendo consoles. Much like how RPGs got flack from Nintendo fans during the PS1 days, shooters get crapped on. They're brown and for bro-gamers. So here we have something that has essentially no appeal at all to shooter fans on competing consoles. The main characters are children that turn into squids and shoot paint. Any superficial element of today's shooters that make them hip has been stripped away.
It will not sell consoles and not just because the Wii U isn't doing very well. People that will buy a console for a shooter are already going to buy a PS4 or XB1 as both have a much larger selection of those games. How many people are interested in the genre but don't like the guns or violence?
With Paper Mario it felt odd at the time that Nintendo didn't try to give their audience something more conventional to give them a taste of what they had been missing out on. Splatoon seems the same way. Why have an alternate take on shooting if you're not even offering the traditional take? But I don't think that was the idea. I think in both cases the idea was to make a game for the existing userbase that doesn't necessarily like the genre in question and needs it presented in a different format. After all if you wanted traditional shooters why they hell did you buy a Wii U over a PS4 or XB1?
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: broodwars on April 27, 2015, 07:29:48 PM
Paper Mario was one of literally two RPGs released for the N64.
No, it "literally" was not. I can think of Quest 64; Aidyn Chronicles: The First Mage, Hybrid Heaven, Ogre Battle 64: Person of Lordly Caliber, and Paper Mario just off the top of my head. I wouldn't even say it was one of "literally" two "good" RPGs released for the N64.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Nile Boogie Returns on April 27, 2015, 07:46:27 PM
Wii U System + 5 amiibo - Villager, Mewtwo, Lucas, Little Mac and Peach. Villager is a female deco, Little Mac is wire frame deco, Peach is Daisy deco, Lucas and Mewtwo are exclusive to this bundle.
Face it - people are already paying $100+ for figures. Nintendo might as well get in on that action too.
There is some real genius in this. Not even kidding!
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Soren on April 27, 2015, 07:55:15 PM
Much like how RPGs got flack from Nintendo fans during the PS1 days, shooters get crapped on. They're brown and for bro-gamers. So here we have something that has essentially no appeal at all to shooter fans on competing consoles. The main characters are children that turn into squids and shoot paint. Any superficial element of today's shooters that make them hip has been stripped away.
Much like how RPGs got flack from Nintendo fans during the PS1 days, shooters get crapped on. They're brown and for bro-gamers. So here we have something that has essentially no appeal at all to shooter fans on competing consoles. The main characters are children that turn into squids and shoot paint. Any superficial element of today's shooters that make them hip has been stripped away.
lol, you say that as if it were a bad thing.
It's not a bad thing per say. It's just not something I expect to sell well.
And I appear to have offended the Quest 64 apologists with my N64 comment. I guess I should have said "figuratively".
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Luigi Dude on April 27, 2015, 08:04:19 PM
But isn't going for only Nintendo's audience a problem? Shouldn't the goal of major software releases be to move hardware units as well? At least in some small capacity?
If you are trying to make people buy a Wii U, you try to appeal to people who don't already have one. This game is being hyped, which is fine. Its being hyped for the wrong reason though, which is to move hardware, which it won't.
The people Nintendo is trying to appeal that don't own a Wii U are 3DS owners, not Playstation or Xbox fans who I can actually agree with Ian about, were never going to give a **** about this game just from it's look alone. There's well over 50 million 3DS users, but only around 10 million Wii U's, despite both systems having many of the same kind of games.
I mentioned Mario Kart and Smash Bros earlier, but I was just talking about the Wii U version. The 3DS versions have sold even more, showing there's still millions of people interested in Nintendo software but aren't buying Wii U's for it. Splatoon is one of those unique games that has nothing like it on the 3DS, which appealing to some of the Mario/Smash audience might make some of those owners which have currently been happy enough with Mario Kart 7 or Smash 3DS to actually consider grabbing a Wii U since there's no portable version this time.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: broodwars on April 27, 2015, 08:42:11 PM
And I appear to have offended the Quest 64 apologists with my N64 comment. I guess I should have said "figuratively".
Hey, Quest 64's a colossal piece of ****, but let's not pretend it didn't exist (along with the other 2 N64 RPGs you clearly forgot). ;)
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Evan_B on April 28, 2015, 01:51:50 AM
I wanted to apologize for my previous statements- I have been saying things that not even I believe are true in order to choke this discussion and mold it to my liking, so I'll clarify here.
I believe that Splatoon will be a well-made game that features a number of flaws that, though it is a new idea that Nintendo is promoting and I am thankful for that train of thought, ultimately hold it back from greatness and will not give its multiplayer a healthy life. I think it has potential and I think it cpuld be something great when it has a sequel that improves its flaws.
I also believe the Playstation 4 has a library of games but it's exclusives are unimpressive and it's total library lacks quality in a number of ways, but rather than picking apart the library listed before I'll just say ports do not make a system good. The Wind Waker HD is a nice update with some neat features and visuals that are a bit bizarre but it is not the definitive version of the game and it is not a reason for someone with brand loyalty to buy the new console, much like th many ports of PS3 and last-generation titles are no reason to brag about the library of the PS4.
What I do believe very strongly is that Nintendo has made a serious flaw in marketing "sequels" on the Wii U. NSMBU, SM3DW, MK8, Tropical Freeze, Smash 4, and potentially even Xenoblade Chronicles have titles that feature roughly the exact same gameplay and aesthetics from their 3DS counterpart and just because they sold well on the Wii or 3DS doesn't mean they are franchises that need to be continuously trotted out. It feels lazy despite the effort put into the game, it doesn't entice people to buy the system, and it's unoriginal even if it's an improvement over its predecessor. They need more Splatoons, Devil's Thirds, #FEs, and hell, even Zombi Us because those are the games that feel new and fresh and original despite their quality. If you're going to make a sequel to a game, one or two powerups or water physics do not make a substantial enough purpose to create that sequel. There are better ways to sequelize a title.
Nintendo needs to stop thinking within the paradigms of what has been successful for them in the past because it's clear that train of thought is not working. Hopefully their recent work with DeNA and Splatoon is a sign of this but they really have yet to prove this and that's disappointing, but expected durin the downswing of two of their consoles.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Triforce Hermit on April 28, 2015, 05:47:14 AM
But isn't going for only Nintendo's audience a problem? Shouldn't the goal of major software releases be to move hardware units as well? At least in some small capacity?
If you are trying to make people buy a Wii U, you try to appeal to people who don't already have one. This game is being hyped, which is fine. Its being hyped for the wrong reason though, which is to move hardware, which it won't.
The people Nintendo is trying to appeal that don't own a Wii U are 3DS owners, not Playstation or Xbox fans who I can actually agree with Ian about, were never going to give a **** about this game just from it's look alone. There's well over 50 million 3DS users, but only around 10 million Wii U's, despite both systems having many of the same kind of games.
I mentioned Mario Kart and Smash Bros earlier, but I was just talking about the Wii U version. The 3DS versions have sold even more, showing there's still millions of people interested in Nintendo software but aren't buying Wii U's for it. Splatoon is one of those unique games that has nothing like it on the 3DS, which appealing to some of the Mario/Smash audience might make some of those owners which have currently been happy enough with Mario Kart 7 or Smash 3DS to actually consider grabbing a Wii U since there's no portable version this time.
I don't believe it will appeal to any significant amount of the 3DS userbase, but I could be wrong. Even if it is appealing to 3DS owners, a lot of them play online games on other consoles and still have expectations of features which have been commonplace for over a decade.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Soren on April 28, 2015, 10:04:28 AM
This thread...
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Evan_B on April 28, 2015, 10:11:07 AM
Paper Mario was one of literally two RPGs released for the N64.
No, it "literally" was not. I can think of Quest 64; Aidyn Chronicles: The First Mage, Hybrid Heaven, Ogre Battle 64: Person of Lordly Caliber, and Paper Mario just off the top of my head. I wouldn't even say it was one of "literally" two "good" RPGs released for the N64.
Is bringing much needed life and debate to the forums.
It's going off the rails and getting sidetracked every which way, but the only threads here that doesn't happen in are the ones nobody cares enough to post in.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Triforce Hermit on April 28, 2015, 12:41:58 PM
Isn't this a Splatoon thread?
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: ShyGuy on April 28, 2015, 02:43:02 PM
Its time for a forum membership drive!
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: ThePerm on April 28, 2015, 04:56:09 PM
at least Nintendo in the last 15 years has improved on the rpg front. We can give them that.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on April 28, 2015, 06:02:36 PM
at least Nintendo in the last 15 years has improved on the rpg front. We can give them that.
They did buy a company that was really good at making RPGs, and then eventually let them make one.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Mop it up on April 28, 2015, 06:06:40 PM
I don't think the Nintendo 64 started out as far behind the PlayStation as it ended up, but even if it did, the totals are that the PSX outsold the N64 by a factor of just barely more than 3-to-1. Given the way things are going, I'd be surprised if the PS4 didn't end up outselling the Wii U by 3-to-1, and even 4-to-1 or 5-to-1 seems possible.
Also, I probably shouldn't admit this, but I actually liked Quest 64. I mean, it was certainly no answer to the PSX RPGs, but it had some interesting ideas. Though, Aidyn Chronicles expanded on the battle system, so it's the better game.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: broodwars on April 28, 2015, 06:12:12 PM
at least Nintendo in the last 15 years has improved on the rpg front. We can give them that.
They did buy a company that was really good at making RPGs, and then eventually let them make one.
By my count, they've made 4: Baten Kaitos:EWATLO; Baten Kaitos Origins; Xenoblade; & Xenoblade X. I've only played 3 of the 4, but they've done fine so far.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: nickmitch on April 28, 2015, 06:13:07 PM
at least Nintendo in the last 15 years has improved on the rpg front. We can give them that.
They did buy a company that was really good at making RPGs, and then eventually let them make one.
If only they could buy a company that was good at making first person shooters.
Ironically the N64 was by far the BEST console for first person shooters at the time. Then they sold the company that made them. And they've had a company that could easily fill the void but for some reason never use them in that context. It's like Nintendo trades away their quarterback, drafts a quarterback to replace him but then converts that quarterback to a kicker.
Or think of it this way. Nintendo had both RPGs and FPS's in abundance on their consoles at different times and then pretty much jettisoned both genres just before they reached their peak commercial value. That is some freakishly poor timing.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: nickmitch on April 28, 2015, 07:10:26 PM
Comically poor, when you think about it.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Mop it up on April 28, 2015, 07:17:44 PM
To be fair, FPS games were still pretty popular during the 90s when Nintendo had them on the N64. Games like Goldeneye 007 and Perfect Dark sold millions of copies. On the other hand, the RPGs on the SNES did not sell comparatively well in the US.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Soren on April 28, 2015, 07:28:31 PM
And I'm sure we can all remember all the FPS' Rare developed after the success of those two games.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on April 28, 2015, 08:12:48 PM
at least Nintendo in the last 15 years has improved on the rpg front. We can give them that.
They did buy a company that was really good at making RPGs, and then eventually let them make one.
By my count, they've made 4: Baten Kaitos:EWATLO; Baten Kaitos Origins; Xenoblade; & Xenoblade X. I've only played 3 of the 4, but they've done fine so far.
Sure, go ahead and ruin my joke about Disaster with your "facts."
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on April 28, 2015, 08:17:21 PM
Ironically the N64 was by far the BEST console for first person shooters at the time. Then they sold the company that made them.
Pretty much that whole team had left to form Free Radical long before Nintendo sold Rare. That's why they sold them; Rare was the company of old in name only, as most of the talent had moved on.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: broodwars on April 28, 2015, 08:34:25 PM
at least Nintendo in the last 15 years has improved on the rpg front. We can give them that.
They did buy a company that was really good at making RPGs, and then eventually let them make one.
By my count, they've made 4: Baten Kaitos:EWATLO; Baten Kaitos Origins; Xenoblade; & Xenoblade X. I've only played 3 of the 4, but they've done fine so far.
Sure, go ahead and ruin my joke about Disaster with your "facts."
Well, Disaster's on a whole other tier above those peasants. :P
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Shaymin on April 28, 2015, 08:43:00 PM
And most of the people who plopped out those first person games under the Retro name are now Armature Studios (Sucks At Making Games).
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: broodwars on April 28, 2015, 09:01:34 PM
Yeah, Armature's pretty much a porting studio these days. I think they did the PS4 Handsome Collection port of Borderlands 2 I'm playing right now.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: ThePerm on April 28, 2015, 10:35:47 PM
last story, and that sword game. wasnt perfect dark a flop? didnt it only sell like 200,000 copies? I loved it, but it never seemed like anybody outside a small group got that it was goldeneye 2
and back to Zangeki no Reginleiv, they should release that on wii u in north america with hd graphics. Put team ninja on it. buy tecmo
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: broodwars on April 28, 2015, 11:23:28 PM
They really need to put Disaster on the Wii U VC. Digital distribution is totally the way to sell a game that niche...and awesome. I already own it, but it'd be nice not to have to play it with Homebrew.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: ThePerm on April 29, 2015, 02:42:49 PM
Cubivore is the type of game that nobody would buy back in the day, but everyone would buy now for their cell phone.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Mop it up on April 29, 2015, 07:56:41 PM
Nintendo could have saved the Wii U by buying RockStar.
Or the Xbox division.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: ShyGuy on April 30, 2015, 01:56:46 AM
Mop it up could have saved Wii U, but she didn't buy enough.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Evan_B on June 04, 2015, 06:49:37 AM
Hate to dredge up a whole thread, but I did want to comment on something.
Nintendo's Wii U lineup is looking extremely strong in the next 6-8 months, in my opinion. If Wooly World, Starfox, and Mario Maker land this year with the addition of XCX, Fatal Frame, Devil's Third, Project Treasure, Illusory Revelation, and more before the next E3, I would go as far to say that, starting with Splatoon, the next year could be a massive shift in monentum for Wii U. I don't think it will turn around the system, mind you, but it sure as hell puts it in a very favorable spot in comparison with its contemporaries.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 04, 2015, 08:38:53 AM
It's a strong lineup, but the system already has a pretty amazing lineup of exclusives. I'm not sure more are going to change many people's minds. Nice for the people who already own one, though.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Luigi Dude on June 04, 2015, 12:42:21 PM
Well if Nintendo was willing to get the price down to $200 or lower, I think that would cause a lot more people to start buying one. The hardcore Nintendo fans who can live off a Nintendo only home console have pretty much bought it by now, but there's still millions of other gamers who are at least interested in some of Nintendo's games, or the more casual Nintendo fans who currently own the 3DS but won't buy a Wii U even though it has much of the same kind of games.
The $300 price tag is still way too much to ask people who want the Wii U as a second console which right now is pretty the rest of the gaming public. The problem is thanks to the Gamepad, just lowering the price by $50 would probably result in the system taking a loss again, with over $100 being financial suicide for them.
The fact the Wii U is still $300 at this point, shows Nintendo has already accepted the fact it'll be their worst selling home console but would rather have something that sells less then 15 million but still makes a profit, then have a system that sells over 30 million, but takes a huge loss to do so.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Ian Sane on June 04, 2015, 02:12:40 PM
A price cut would be good since there are clearly some games I want to play on the Wii U. It's been hard to go without Pikmin 3 and Xenoblade X is going to make it that much harder. If Zelda isn't moved to the NX I naturally want that as well. $300 is too much for me to get for a couple of games. I intend to get the console at some point when I can get it for a song. As Luigi Dude is pointing out the price is just too high for it to be a second console and that's really all I would want it as.
The Wii U has some great exclusives but that's all it has. You buy a Wii U and you get these exclusives INSTEAD of the hundred other games the other consoles both get but the Wii U does not. Splatoon is cool and all but going with that is a trade-off of like 20 other games. Maybe Nintendo's exclusives are the best games but they just lose to sheer numbers. Five 8s is worth twice the value of two 10s. That's how gamers have seen it since the N64 days. The "quality vs. quantity" argument makes the big assumption that the other guys have lousy games. No they have games that are almost as good, sometimes as good and sometimes even better. Unless you absolutely HAVE to play Nintendo's games the choice is obvious.
Still if they can keep up a decent lineup of exclusives on the Wii U it will allow for a smoother transition to the NX. That's way better than the Wii-to-Wii U transition where Nintendo seemingly disappeared for a year and they did that despite having the best selling console.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Evan_B on June 04, 2015, 02:59:25 PM
I do not agree with the five 8s, two 10s statement. Then again, I have played what many people consider an 8 and I see them as a 6, though...
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Nile Boogie Returns on June 04, 2015, 03:26:08 PM
Still if they can keep up a decent lineup of exclusives on the Wii U it will allow for a smoother transition to the NX. That's way better than the Wii-to-Wii U transition where Nintendo seemingly disappeared for a year and they did that despite having the best selling console.
I would not expect the Wii U to xfer to NX as it may not be as powerful as the current console. The path of least resistance is Nintendo getting the very most out of the current Wii U user-base. Also, America has been a 2 console gaming country for about 20 years if your an enthusiast. The average gamer can be happy with one console if they have a versatile pallet. Wii U, for all its flaws is a very capable main system. Sony may have the sales but the software is still lagging behind Wii U and Splatoon is quite the boost to steam the library along.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Ian Sane on June 04, 2015, 04:59:34 PM
Still if they can keep up a decent lineup of exclusives on the Wii U it will allow for a smoother transition to the NX. That's way better than the Wii-to-Wii U transition where Nintendo seemingly disappeared for a year and they did that despite having the best selling console.
I would not expect the Wii U to xfer to NX as it may not be as powerful as the current console. The path of least resistance is Nintendo getting the very most out of the current Wii U user-base. Also, America has been a 2 console gaming country for about 20 years if your an enthusiast. The average gamer can be happy with one console if they have a versatile pallet. Wii U, for all its flaws is a very capable main system. Sony may have the sales but the software is still lagging behind Wii U and Splatoon is quite the boost to steam the library along.
All I mean by transition is that Nintendo has steady console releases up until the next console is released, nothing to do with the actual platforms themselves. For the last couple generations they have had a big gap between the last releases of the prior console and the launch of the successor. Better to have the games keep coming and keep Nintendo "current" in the minds of consumers then for them to disappear for a while. The Wii seemed like a product that had come and gone by the time the Wii U showed up but the PS3 came across as a current product right up until the PS4 launch.
And if the NX is actually LESS powerful than the Wii U I'm going to be very sceptical about its success. Unless it's a handheld I guess.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Phil on June 04, 2015, 05:06:08 PM
Save the Wii U, you say? It needs a streetwise Hercules... It needs... a hero!
Title: stuff
Post by: Nile Boogie Returns on June 04, 2015, 05:40:33 PM
Even though Nintendo denied the rumors about the NX being Android based I think a 3DS replacement is far more likely than a Wii U replacement.
Wii-U-Next Maybe 2017
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Enner on June 04, 2015, 10:16:30 PM
In investor Q&A, Iwata has answered how the next Nintendo system will some how absorb the Wii U hardware. I would be surprised if the NX does not have backwards compatibility with the Wii U. I think it is safe to assume that the NX will at least be as powerful as the Wii U.
It's the 3DS and DS compatibility I would be worried about. I feel that the dual screens and the 3D screen will be cut down for Nintendo's next handheld.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Nile Boogie Returns on June 04, 2015, 10:22:25 PM
I share in this fear. I want a HDS. 720p 3D, 2screens.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Evan_B on June 05, 2015, 12:06:11 AM
I just want to live in a world where Nintendo's newest handheld HAS an HD screen.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 05, 2015, 01:37:17 AM
Even the Vita isn't technically HD. Unless you're going the size of the GamePad or something it's overkill for a handheld.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Evan_B on June 05, 2015, 05:03:45 AM
You seem to be implying I don't want to carry around a Wii U Gamepad.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Adrock on June 05, 2015, 06:27:18 AM
EDIT: Never mind.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Evan_B on June 05, 2015, 07:25:58 AM
Don't put words in my mouth!
The idea of a Wii U Gamepad sized handheld with dual circle pads fills me with glee.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 05, 2015, 08:16:17 AM
I don't think they could do a mass market device at that size. It'd be even less portable than a 3DS XL, but not big enough to fit the components for a modern console-style experience. I'd probably buy one, but I also bought a Vita, so I'm clearly not someone you should base your market on.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Adrock on June 05, 2015, 08:28:37 AM
I don't think they could do a mass market device at that size. It'd be even less portable than a 3DS XL, but not big enough to fit the components for a modern console-style experience. I'd probably buy one, but I also bought a Vita, so I'm clearly not someone you should base your market on.
I bought a PSTV (for 45 bucks, but still), so I'm DEFINITELY not the market someone should target.
Its the whole tablet mentality, you know? Why buy something small and portable when you can get something 2.5 times as large with the same (maybe fewer) features??
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 05, 2015, 09:43:12 AM
We've heard talk that the NX might not be a single piece of hardware, but more like a platform such as iOS, so I guess it would be possible to have a more handheld device as well as a larger, tablet type thing, with separate resolutions but running largely the same software like the iPhone and iPad.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Ian Sane on June 05, 2015, 01:03:08 PM
In investor Q&A, Iwata has answered how the next Nintendo system will some how absorb the Wii U hardware. I would be surprised if the NX does not have backwards compatibility with the Wii U. I think it is safe to assume that the NX will at least be as powerful as the Wii U.
Maintaining the Gamecube architecture, because that's really what it is, is such a misplaced priority that if that's something they're going to insist on then they have already lost the next generation. The only developer that gives the slightest **** about keeping with this architecture is Nintendo themselves. If they design it just for Nintendo then the third parties will justifiably reject it and if there is no third party support the NX has already failed. Nintendo has only two paths to console success. Fix the third party support problem or somehow luck into another Wii-style fad that attracts a new audience. One is a real strategy and one is like buying lottery tickets as your legitimate investment plans.
As for a tablet size handheld, I personally would just want a console. If it isn't truly portable why am I putting up with this still fairly small screen when I could have it on my TV and relax on the couch? But then in a world of Ian Sanes the iPad would have sold ZERO units (no one has ever demonstrated to me any practical purpose for having one; if I already have a phone and a computer what do I need this?) so I'm not really the target demo.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 05, 2015, 01:21:30 PM
They could have the old architecture in there as a secondary thing in addition to something new. The GBA included the GBC chip, which was completely different, and used it for sound or some **** when not in backward compatibility mode. The thing can't be that expensive to produce at this point.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Ian Sane on June 05, 2015, 02:09:41 PM
They could have the old architecture in there as a secondary thing in addition to something new. The GBA included the GBC chip, which was completely different, and used it for sound or some **** when not in backward compatibility mode. The thing can't be that expensive to produce at this point.
That would be fine. Though I presume the intention would be to maintain the architecture to make for a smooth transition between generations for the devs. In a bubble that's a great idea but in Nintendo's case it only benefits THEM. The rest of the industry has been moving towards an x86 inspired design because everyone (except probably Nintendo) is familiar with it and it's easy to make a game on one platform and port it to others. No third party is going to be impressed that this architecture that they've never used, beyond having their c-team make some waggle shovelware on the Wii, is being used again. If anything it might be a turn-off because third parties aren't that familiar with it and porting is just going to be that much more difficult. And just getting anyone to give Nintendo the time of day at this point at all is going to be hard. Third parties will pretty much be looking for an excuse to not risk it and Nintendo would be giving it to them right off the bat.
The second "please understand" comes out of Iwata's lips for the NX it is OVER. Everyone is tired of Nintendo's bullshit at this point. No more compromises or hoops to jump through. Supporting Nintendo should be so painless that no one should feel any reason not to.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: MagicCow64 on June 05, 2015, 03:17:16 PM
It's also interesting that tablet sales have slowed dramatically in general. People's comfort with giant-sized phones along with ever lither laptops seems to be crowding out the questionably-useful-for-anything-other-than keeping-kids-busy pure tablet market. So not only did Nintendo's tablet suffer in comparison to full-fledged up-market tablets, the whole concept might not stick. I certainly wouldn't expect anything like the Gamepad form factor to appear again.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: ShyGuy on June 05, 2015, 10:33:00 PM
Interestingly, I work for a school district and we got in a three mobile devices for a test run: The Surface Pro, the iPad, and the Chromebook. Surface was out right away, and after a year of widespread use, now the iPad is being pushed to the side in favor of Chromebooks.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Evan_B on June 06, 2015, 12:11:52 AM
I was just joking about the tablet stuff, guys... I would never, ever, EVER want a handheld that size.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Mop it up on June 07, 2015, 01:21:52 PM
I'd like a system that offers better value, lowers game prices and makes everything more affordable.
...Fine, fine, I'll show myself out.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 07, 2015, 07:40:24 PM
I'd like a system that offers better value, lowers game prices and makes everything more affordable.
...Fine, fine, I'll show myself out.
I'd like that too... if most of the major games were playable on it. So I guess I want a PS4 that also has Nintendo games but costs like half the price?
The price thing is kind of funny for a Canadian like myself. Our games are actually CHEAPER now. $60 for a game might have been an increase for Americans but I remember when games could cost $80. Last gen when the prices went up for Americans our dollar was quite strong so our prices pretty much reached parity which was a big decrease for us. They've been going up again and are now about $70 for brand new games. Of course in both markets we're in the era where a game goes down to $30-20 like six months after release (except Nintendo games usually). These days it is very affordable to be a gamer, provided you have enough willpower to hold off getting a game on day one.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: broodwars on June 08, 2015, 12:45:41 PM
I'd like a system that offers better value, lowers game prices and makes everything more affordable.
...Fine, fine, I'll show myself out.
I'd like that too... if most of the major games were playable on it. So I guess I want a PS4 that also has Nintendo games but costs like half the price?
The price thing is kind of funny for a Canadian like myself. Our games are actually CHEAPER now. $60 for a game might have been an increase for Americans but I remember when games could cost $80. Last gen when the prices went up for Americans our dollar was quite strong so our prices pretty much reached parity which was a big decrease for us. They've been going up again and are now about $70 for brand new games. Of course in both markets we're in the era where a game goes down to $30-20 like six months after release (except Nintendo games usually). These days it is very affordable to be a gamer, provided you have enough willpower to hold off getting a game on day one.
I can think of a few Canadians I know on this site who would very much disagree with you when it comes to games being "CHEAPER" lately...
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Shaymin on June 08, 2015, 09:15:24 PM
To be fair, Wii U games are just now hitting $70 MSRPs in Canada.
But it's hard not to look at $75 for the Uncharted "Quick, throw them a bone!" Collection and $80 for BLOPS 3/Fallout 4/Battlefront and realize we're getting boned here.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 08, 2015, 09:43:30 PM
There is that industry death watch thread, and I just can't help but think that the cost of games is really a huge part of the problem.
Yes, I understand gaming budgets have gotten higher, and with production values basically making interactive movies games are incredibly expensive to make. But you know what...movies are incredibly expensive to make too...and movies often have higher budget. If people had to pay $20-30 dollars to see a movie they would stop going. There is a point where gaming becomes too costly, and paying $60.00 for a single game is that rate for me. I just won't do it anymore. The sweet spot is where portable gaming was/is with the DS/3DS. $29.99-39.99 is a fair price for a full game. I don't mind DLC and additional content costing more, if the original price includes enough game to justify the price.
Also, for that matter I still think Nintendo has the right idea when it comes to console prices. I don't need a super computer to play my games. I just want to play good games. I care nothing about story, I want the experience. So for me, I really want those price points listed above...or I just am out. I can't believe how much money I have saved not playing games in the last 6 years.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Evan_B on June 08, 2015, 10:59:01 PM
The sixty dollar price point is hard to swallow, but seeing as I rarely buy full sized console games anymore, it could be worse. When they hit 65-70 that's when I'll tap out.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Nile Boogie Returns on June 08, 2015, 11:51:19 PM
Who's idea was it to give the Wii U 1GB of usable Ram? I know they were not competing with MSony, but this was a pathetically short-sighted move on Nintendo's part. I'm sure having to render 2 views on that fly isn't taxing at all and the robust nature of the 10year old architecture is magnificent to work with. was 4GB of ram too much to ask for? Maybe tweek the OS not to use a FULL GB OF RAM. Sometimes it feels like a stop-gap console,
If we ever get a game that looks better than Beyond: Two Souls I'll retract my statement but I don't think that will happen.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Enner on June 09, 2015, 12:01:53 AM
Who's idea was it to give the Wii U 1GB of usable Ram? ... Sometimes it feels like a stop-gap console,
If it feels that way to you, I doubt Nintendo meant to do that on purpose. The simple, brutal possible answer is that Nintendo was finding where ever they can cut costs in order to make the sunk costs of the GamePad hurt less.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Evan_B on June 09, 2015, 01:02:30 AM
Considerin Nintendo barely had any ideas for the Gamepad, they should have just dropped the feature altogether.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Soren on June 09, 2015, 02:08:12 AM
They had plenty of ideas for the GamePad. They just put them all in 1 game.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 09, 2015, 06:01:42 AM
I think the problem is Nintendo was looking for another gimmick, and they thought the Gamepad was a worthy gimmick, and for many it is. OffTV play, menu and Map not taking up valuable display. Touch gaming and custom controls for unique game experiences. These are things that can make a game great.
However, the 3rd parties didn't care for it, and it add difficulties to porting games over, beyond just the limited specs. So Nintendo was forced to release games quicker and worry less about the Gamepad. I think probably many Nintendo games could have implemented it better, but were forced to abandon those ambitions to get games out faster.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Evan_B on June 09, 2015, 08:57:05 AM
Asynchronous multiplayer was really quite amazing, in my opinion. I was kinda hoping for a Nintendo Land 2.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Ian Sane on June 09, 2015, 12:56:59 PM
Yes, I understand gaming budgets have gotten higher, and with production values basically making interactive movies games are incredibly expensive to make. But you know what...movies are incredibly expensive to make too...and movies often have higher budget. If people had to pay $20-30 dollars to see a movie they would stop going. There is a point where gaming becomes too costly, and paying $60.00 for a single game is that rate for me. I just won't do it anymore. The sweet spot is where portable gaming was/is with the DS/3DS. $29.99-39.99 is a fair price for a full game. I don't mind DLC and additional content costing more, if the original price includes enough game to justify the price.
Movies can charge less and cost more to make because they're passive entertainment and thus much more accessible. Videogames simply cannot have the same level of mass market appeal to match those figures.
While I get that Nintendo may want to lower the cost of game development the problem is that the genie has been let out of the bottle and you can't put it back in. The other guys have these big blockbusters and it all costs around the same to us consumers so why should we settle for less? Nintendo is still charging the same price for console games that look last gen. The difference between graphics these days is not as great as it was between generations in the past but still. Nintendo's is charging $60 for games that look like titles that are now quite a few years old and go for $30 in cheap bins. They launched with NSMB U which had 1988 style gameplay with 2006 graphics being sold for full price on a brand new console in 2012. No wonder no one bought it.
Nintendo acts like Sony and Microsoft aren't their competition, like Nintendo is there own different thing. That might be the goal but it's not reality. The target audience has too much crossover so a potential Nintendo customer sees a purchase of their product as a decision over buying a Sony or MS one. Most people only buy one console. They're in competition regardless of what Nintendo wants or deludes themselves into thinking. So they have to do well in a direct comparison. Last gen hardware with an expensive controller that doesn't really even get used much and a game lineup that initially consisted of a disproportionate amount of games that are basically NES sidescrollers with fancier graphics and virtually no third party support does not compare well. Being able to withstand a direct comparison with competing consoles is a requirement. If Nintendo does not wish to meet that requirement then they shouldn't be making consoles anymore and the market will ensure that if Nintendo insists on trying without meeting this requirement.
Though in regards to running out of ideas for the Gamepad I don't know if Nintendo ran out of ideas or saw that it didn't have that Wii Sports kind of success and so just stopped pushing the feature.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Nile Boogie Returns on June 09, 2015, 02:41:17 PM
The ideI just a of the Gamepad is solid, I feel like the hardware isn't robust enough to fully push the ideals of the vision. ZombieU was on the right track.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Soren on June 09, 2015, 03:17:34 PM
Nintendo is still charging the same price for console games that look last gen.
No they're not. And no, they don't. Nintendo has probably been the most flexible in their pricing, with plenty of $50 and $40 dollar game offerings and good graphical fidelity. But please, go right ahead.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: ejamer on June 09, 2015, 03:19:42 PM
Nintendo is still charging the same price for console games that look last gen.
No they're not. And no, they don't. Nintendo has probably been the most flexible in their pricing, with plenty of $50 and $40 dollar game offerings and good graphical fidelity. But please, go right ahead.
I miss having a way (karma, whatever) to indicate that you really like a post.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Ian Sane on June 09, 2015, 05:00:35 PM
Nintendo is still charging the same price for console games that look last gen.
No they're not. And no, they don't. Nintendo has probably been the most flexible in their pricing, with plenty of $50 and $40 dollar game offerings and good graphical fidelity. But please, go right ahead.
Splatoon, Mario Kart 8 and SSB for Wii U all cost... $60 and they're on glorified PS3 hardware in a world where the competition is the PS4. Graphically they still look nice but realistically Gamecube games look nice too. You're making the same excuses Nintendo makes. "Well they have some cheaper games and it all looks pretty good to me." Could we all make do with Wii U hardware? Sure. Do we HAVE to when two other companies offer something fancier? No. That's the point.
My three examples are also online games. Nintendo is notoriously behind the times with online gaming (no voicechat in Splatoon for example). Why should any gamer be expected to put up with that? The other guys have set a standard and Nintendo fails to meet it. Is there a discount for archaic online? No. Pay the same for Splatoon as you do for other online games with more robust features.
The problem is that Nintendo is asking the consumer to put up with all sorts of inadequacies in comparison to competing products. The only person that would go for that is someone for which Nintendo's first party games are worth the trade-off and that's exactly who owns the Wii U - the most dedicated Nintendo fans. But for most people Nintendo is just one of many videogame companies that make good games and are not deserving of any special treatment.
Put yourself in the shoes of someone who would buy Nintendo games if they were on their console of choice but who otherwise doesn't have any specific fandom in Nintendo. What sort of Nintendo console would that person buy?
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 09, 2015, 07:19:27 PM
Nintendo is still charging the same price for console games that look last gen.
No they're not. And no, they don't. Nintendo has probably been the most flexible in their pricing, with plenty of $50 and $40 dollar game offerings and good graphical fidelity. But please, go right ahead.
Splatoon, Mario Kart 8 and SSB for Wii U all cost... $60 and they're on glorified PS3 hardware in a world where the competition is the PS4. Graphically they still look nice but realistically Gamecube games look nice too. You're making the same excuses Nintendo makes. "Well they have some cheaper games and it all looks pretty good to me." Could we all make do with Wii U hardware? Sure. Do we HAVE to when two other companies offer something fancier? No. That's the point.
This is a fair point. Which is why I think Nintendo should radically think about changing the pricing of gaming again. I like Nintendo creating cheaper/budget hardware. I think personally it is a good idea, though they need to be smart about the tools and resources for creating games...and they need to be somewhat comparable to the current generation. So a Wii in today's market is unacceptable. A Wii U is ALMOST acceptable, if publishers found it easy to program for and easy to port games over.
However, I think if Nintendo approached console games with the logic that games need to be priced like portable games used to be priced, then Nintendo could easily get back into the game. Nintendo could carve out a STRONG market being the secondary console, and make money. But to do that, they need to change their thinking. They need to find ways to make being a secondary console work.
Here are some ideas:
1) Allow 3rd party controllers to work on your system. 2) Allow your controllers to work on the 3rd party system. (This minor thing, might scare some people away, but the good will of knowing I can buy either Nintendo controllers to work on my Xbox One, or vice versa would help ease the cost of gaming, and buy goodwill for purchasing Nintendo as a secondary console.)
3)Cheaper Games: Create a new pricing scale for games. $19.99 Budget games $29.99 Mid-tier games $39.99 Big Budget Games
So the pricing above would help push software sales, because more games could be bought. $39.99 would be a great price for Mario and Zelda games. $29.99 Star Fox/Kirby/Splatoon type games. $19.99 I dunno someone else could give me an example...maybe a Wii Sports type game, or Wii Party.
4) You can embrace DLC and extending content...as long as you give people a fair product from the beginning. It can even be slightly overpriced. Example: I know people are complaining about the cost of new characters for Smash Bros. However, I feel that cost is fair for a bonus. The content in the original purchase is more than enough...and if you want more buying it is fine.
5) Universal Account System Linking Up to 3 devices (Portables and Consoles) I think having an account based system that links game purchases to more than one account would be great. It would work much like Apple does it.
If Nintendo took this approach for the consumer end, and made the appropriate adjustments to the backend of the business to make this work, I think they would rise again.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Adrock on June 09, 2015, 07:33:53 PM
Nintendo could carve out a STRONG market being the secondary console, and make money. But to do that, they need to change their thinking. They need to find ways to make being a secondary console work.
If Nintendo really wants to do this, it can't have a $300+. I think $200 is the sweet spot for that. However, Nintendo would have to sacrifice a lot to get the price that low. I believe there's a better solution, but I'd rather start a new thread for that.
Quote
I know people are complaining about the cost of new characters for Smash Bros. However, I feel that cost is fair for a bonus.
Honestly, I think the price is a little high, but at the same time, I'm practically waiting to give Nintendo my money. I find that DLC in multiplayer games tend to get more milage for me. I've yet to purchase single-player DLC.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Mop it up on June 10, 2015, 06:49:41 PM
I'd like a system that offers better value, lowers game prices and makes everything more affordable.
A smartphone?
Nice try, but smartphones don't cover the "value" condition since most of the games are junk, and there are still plenty of overpriced games on there too (see Square's stuff for one example). Smartphones themselves are also very expensive.
These days it is very affordable to be a gamer, provided you have enough willpower to hold off getting a game on day one.
Considering the high cost of things like DLC and sub fees for online services, I very much disagree with this notion. These practices are only getting worse.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Ian Sane on June 10, 2015, 07:58:27 PM
I don't really want a secondary console from Nintendo and frankly I don't want one from anybody. What I want is one console that supports a good 90% of the games I'm interested in. That means either a Nintendo console with good third party support or someone else's console with Nintendo as a third party dev. While I'm certainly not interested in paying $300 for a secondary console I don't really want to pay even $100. No one else acts like they're so damn special that they can justify this, particularly when the real reason Nintendo won't offer a decent console is because they're too damn cheap and stubborn to even really try.
If we're talking a $39.99 Zelda what type of game is this? Is it scaled down? I like how they appear to be going all out on the Wii U Zelda. That's part of the appeal. I don't think they can make a game like that for $40.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 10, 2015, 08:48:34 PM
If you wait a year to half a year you can buy a game for half price. But that still isn't the point.
First, if you do that you risk multiplayer aspect of the game being dead as a new more interesting game comes out. Second, that logic also applies if games were cheaper to begin with...making it even cheaper if game prices drop.
But honestly, I think Nintendo is right, about price drops being bad for the industry. I think it would be better to try and keep prices stable but lower.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Wah on June 10, 2015, 08:59:40 PM
Wii U needs more.... [/EXPLOSIONSb] also hentai...
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Evan_B on June 23, 2015, 01:45:35 AM
After reading a lengthy article on the development of the Game Cube and the transition into the Wii, I feel that I have a better idea of Nintendo's strategies at the time, something that carried into and most likely crippled the Wii U. Nintendo, or at least Miyamoto and Iwata, as well as a few other higher ups, seem committed to the idea that they need to bring new technology into people's homes at an affôrdsble price, while also catering to a Japanese market pretty extensively. The problem is, their market study often leads them to make design decisions that make little to no sense. In the case of the Game Cube and Wii, it was the idea of creating a compact, semi portable device. With the Wii U, the focus on power consumption and the similarities with the Wii brand were probably key factors that ultimately don't mean jack-**** to an American consumer. Also, the tech they hoped to proliferate with the Wii U was particularly difficult to convey and already existed in more popular forms. The form factor probably also hurt it a bit, as well.
Nintendo has often stated that they aren't really competing with anyone, and their business approach certainly reflects that. While they have been more aggressive in targeting and promoting third parties with collaborations they make little to no effort to cultivate the market for third party releases outside of leaving software droughts for them to fill in gaps. They create games on their consoles in that way, they aren't really competing either. But their refusal to include, and in the Wii U's case, support multimedia aspects in their consoles has been a bizarre and stubborn choice that they continue to stand by for two reasons, basically- they don't know how, which further supports their second reason, which is that they make toys. This was, for a long time, a personal belief, but after seeing quotes from Yamauchi and Miyamoto that enforce and flat-out state this, I think it clarifies Nintendo's business decisions and recent success with Amiibo. It almost surprises me that Amiibo wasn't a key focus of Wii U in the first place. From the the toylike designs of their machines to the emphasis on gameplay foundation over story and presentational aspects, it's clear that Nintendo products are supposed to be inviting and charming, which is the exact opposite of what many western gamers desire in their products.
Maybe I'm just talking out loud, but while Nintendo has made several drastic changes in recent months, I don't think we'll see a difference in the structure of their console development with the NX, or their video games in the future. If I've realized one thing about the company, it's that they take baby steps towards any ideas that aren't their own and remain firmly roped in their ways.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Adrock on June 23, 2015, 06:17:49 AM
The problem is, their market study often leads them to make design decisions that make little to no sense.
In hindsight. Many of Nintendo's decisions have made sense on paper but the execution was flawed.
I don't think catering to the Japanese market is necessarily a bad move. Nintendo just has to understand when it's appropriate. Things like Streetpass work well in that market. In North America, it doesn't, but 3DS still works very well as a personal gaming device which is why it's still successful. It was weird when Nintendo talked up changing "together alone" with Wii U when 3DS contributed to that concept. Understanding who and what a product is for can go a long way in determining how to design it. Building a handheld for the Japanese market in mind makes sense since that's where that market has trended for quite sometime. Alternatively, no company should build a home console with the Japanese market in mind for the same reason handhelds are so successful there. Unfortunately, there is no one size fits all. Design hardware based on the market that is most drawn to it. A home console should be designed with North American sensibilities because that's where it'll do the most damage.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Soren on June 23, 2015, 07:22:52 AM
How about an F-Zero game developed by Criterion, would that have saved the Wii U? Probably not, but enjoy your morning cup of tears...
This makes me wonder why it had to be "all or nothing" on the timeline for a playable demo of an F-Zero game developed by Criterion....Why couldn't Nintendo have told them "if not by that soon, then let us know if you'd be interested as a next project".
Nintendo needs to get it out of their head that every series needs a new hook to validate a game. I get GX sold like Garbage, but F-Zero is a futuristic racer with by now very specific game mechanics that don't really deviate between iterations. Frankly, just having a graphically updated game with a robust set of game modes and an online as functional as Mariokart is all you need. Especially considering how they've seemingly recycled Starfox's gameplay mechanics mostly for the new one, this excuse doesn't hold water, and I'd be more accepting if a little disappointed if Nintendo just came out and said "hey, sorry, I know there are some fans of the series, but the last couple of F-Zero games did poorly, so we can't justify a new game at this time", then continue pitching the idea to outside publishers behind the scenes.
I half figured the inclusion of F-Zero levels & kart in Mariokart 8 was a "throwing a bone" at the F-Zero fanbase similarly to this year's Metriod reveal. Disappointing regardless, because unlike Metroid, F-Zero seems completely dead in the water.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Soren on June 23, 2015, 10:29:41 AM
I'm pretty sure "It's in HD" is a pretty good hook for a new game. Maybe Nintendo is scared they can't do a 1080 60fps F-Zero like the series deserves. Maybe NOE just gave up after the initial pitch to Criterion, which sucks because Criterion really went out on a limb for the console with Most Wanted.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 23, 2015, 05:32:54 PM
Or maybe they just respect Criterion enough to wait until they have time...or wait until the Nintendo NX.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Nile Boogie Returns on June 23, 2015, 11:38:59 PM
Legit: This sheds some light on "Unprecedented Partnership" and I wonder what other handshake type deals they had worked out?
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: ThePerm on June 24, 2015, 04:29:40 PM
If Nintendo does it right they can have F-Zero, Zelda U-X, Mario Galaxy 3, Metroid Prime 4 all ready for the nx system at launch. I doubt that, they don't seem organized enough to pull that off at this point.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 24, 2015, 09:49:32 PM
Nintendo would never launch with top tier games ready for launch.
However, Nintendo might consider Metroid and F-Zero not Top Tier.
So I could see F-Zero, Zelda, and Metroid Prime ready for launch. That would be quite a lineup, and if they take Prime into the direction the 3DS game...then you could have a shooter with multiplayer and team work, a Zelda Game and a racer game ready. Get Sega to make a Monkeyball type party game, and have a fully functional Virtual Console with no dumb trickle down releases and you are ready.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Evan_B on June 25, 2015, 12:15:24 AM
It's time for the Nintendo fanbase to let go of the Galaxy sequel idea completely. There's noting unique about that series except gravity and that wasn't even implemented well.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Wah on June 25, 2015, 01:20:42 AM
I think a built in thunderbox could have saved it...
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Dasmos on June 25, 2015, 09:20:02 AM
It's time for the Nintendo fanbase to let go of the Galaxy sequel idea completely. There's noting unique about that series except gravity and that wasn't even implemented well.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: broodwars on June 25, 2015, 11:48:55 AM
Gotta say, I kind of agree with him: the whole gimmick of the Galaxy series was supposed to be the odd gravity of the planetoids changing the way you look at platforming, but the games rarely used the changes in gravity for anything remotely interesting. For the most part, it was just used to replicate the "now you're walking on the ceiling!" gimmick we've seen in gaming as early as Gravity Man's stage in Mega Man 5.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Ian Sane on June 25, 2015, 01:18:35 PM
Nintendo would never launch with top tier games ready for launch.
You mean they couldn't pull it off or that they wouldn't want to? The need to space out big first party releases is more of a priority when you have horrible third party support but that's not supposed to happen, right? If that's not addressed the console fails. We now know what the potential amount of customers is for a Nintendo-only console and it's not big enough.
I was thinking the other day about how there really are three groups of potential customers:
1. Casual mainstream audience - largest audience, lowest customer loyalty 2. Hardcore Nintendo fan - smallest audience, highest customer loyalty 3. General videogame audience - in the middle of the other two group's extremes
The mainstream will make you the most money but their interest is fad based and flaky. If you can get them you're making big money but they'll drop you on a whim and their tastes are hard to predict in the first place. You can't rely on them in the longterm. The hardcore fan is already on board and having their support doesn't really mean much at all. They're too small of a group so if you focus just on them you'll go broke. You would also have to really alter your product into something unrecognizable to turn them off. The third audience is where you should focus. They're results based. They won't cut you slack for incompetence but they won't drop you like a fad either. Treat them well and they'll stay on board and they're a large enough group that you can be successful with them during the lulls between the few times you'll happen to land mainstream interest. They also have enough crossover tastes with your hardcore fans that you won't have to alter your product so significantly that the hardcores are turned off.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Phil on June 25, 2015, 02:16:05 PM
Since Super Mario 3D World has been done for a while, I would think we might see a new 3D Mario come out at the next console's launch. That would be really cool to see again.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Nile Boogie Returns on June 25, 2015, 05:16:22 PM
It's time for the Nintendo fanbase to let go of the Galaxy sequel idea completely. There's noting unique about that series except gravity and that wasn't even implemented well.
Really?
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: ThePerm on June 25, 2015, 06:44:29 PM
As far as Galaxy goes, i really just consider it an extension of Mario 64 and Super Mario Sunshine. They are just top quality 3d Mario games. If you really look at Mario 3d world, its basically Mario meets gauntlet style isometric view.(which suddenly got appealing to me when you think about it that way)
I think there is room for both styles, but i want that Mario 64 style game. Actually they should do a new four swords like Mario 3d world. and river city ransom.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 25, 2015, 06:48:18 PM
The Galaxy games, especially the second one, were pretty far from the Mario 64 style. Galaxy 2 has a lot more in common with 3D World than it does with 64 or Sunshine.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Evan_B on June 25, 2015, 07:02:24 PM
3D World effectively makes Galaxy obsolete. I don't care if the art style was more appealing or not.
And yes, many of you may be surprised to hear that in addition to disliking 3D Land, I also have no love for Galaxy, AKA the awkward teenage years of 3D Mario where he was trying to be something different from a collect-a-thon without committing fully to a new structure.
Galaxy 2 is better. But yeah, Galaxy and 3D Land suck.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Nile Boogie Returns on July 02, 2015, 12:45:37 PM
3D World effectively makes Galaxy obsolete. I don't care if the art style was more appealing or not.
And yes, many of you may be surprised to hear that in addition to disliking 3D Land, I also have no love for Galaxy, AKA the awkward teenage years of 3D Mario where he was trying to be something different from a collect-a-thon without committing fully to a new structure.
Galaxy 2 is better. But yeah, Galaxy and 3D Land suck.
So let me understand: You didn't like Mario Galaxy or Super Mario 3d Land but you liked 3d World?
What?
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Evan_B on July 02, 2015, 02:35:58 PM
I've just accepted the fact that it takes EAD two tries to get something right.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: famicomplicated on July 05, 2015, 03:29:40 AM
I'm not going to read through all the other posts, so I apologise for repeats, but here are my 2 cents:
*Should have provided devs kits earlier *Should have made it easy to port 360 games by providing a framework to do so *Should have courted the 3rd parties by doing the above, but also showing how cheap it would be to develop compared to next-gen *Should have got Minecraft signed up 2 years before WiiU launch *Should have advertised the system as brand new, not an add-on, took them over a year to realise the confusion *Should have streamlined the interface before launch, not 2 years after *Should have given it a better name, a name that infers it's new, HD and different *Should have advertised it to consumers *Should have followed through with Nintendo TVii, and in all regions, it was a good idea but they gave up *Should have made it region free *Should have had the full VC library form the Wii available to launch (full conversions I mean) *Should have priced it at $350 with a game, then brought it down to $299 with a game a year later *Should have had MK8 at launch or soon after *Should have scrapped or reworked NintendoLand into something worthwhile and understandable to all *Should have launched with small Amiibo range and a game, then expanded them to Smash at a later date
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: BranDonk Kong on July 05, 2015, 08:36:24 AM
And
*Should have made it more powerful - or launched it 2 years earlier.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on July 05, 2015, 08:48:42 AM
*Should have made it more powerful - or launched it 2 years earlier.
This is really the biggest thing. If it had more time when it was comparable to the other consoles, either earlier with 360 and PS3 or more powerful to match up better with early-gen PS4 and Xbox One games, it would have kept getting third party ports for longer and that might have helped it catch on.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: BranDonk Kong on July 05, 2015, 03:14:54 PM
It seems the thinking was, "Wii was on par with the original Xbox, Wii U can be on par with the Xbox 360, what could go wrong?" They didn't realize that the old folks already had Wii Sports, they weren't interested in a new console and didn't make one that the true console-gaming audience wanted. I was at Target the other day and there was an older couple buying a new Wiimote: "Do you need one for the Wii U?" asked the employee? "No."
They did so much wrong with the console - I think a lot of the Nintendo fans (myself included) were excited when the first video demo was played and didn't realize everything that was already going wrong with it. I did always say that the name was a horrible idea though.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on July 05, 2015, 10:09:51 PM
Trying to be the Wii again was just an awful strategy. I get the appeal in a basic sense, but rational thinking should have easily convinced them it was a longshot. So many things had to go right for that to work the way it did, and it was incredible hubris to think they were capable of pulling that trick twice.
Even forgetting the external factors, the Wii had an unbelievably effective marketing strategy, probably the best in the history of the gaming industry. Conversely, I'm not sure they could have marketed the Wii U less effectively than they did.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Nile Boogie Returns on July 05, 2015, 11:30:21 PM
Trying to be the Wii again was just an awful strategy. I get the appeal in a basic sense, but rational thinking should have easily convinced them it was a longshot. So many things had to go right for that to work the way it did, and it was incredible hubris to think they were capable of pulling that trick twice.
Even forgetting the external factors, the Wii had an unbelievably effective marketing strategy, probably the best in the history of the gaming industry. Conversely, I'm not sure they could have marketed the Wii U less effectively than they did.
It was an almost impossible undertaking. Following up one the most successful and iconic products of the decade. The Wii branding was too strong to capitalize on. However, those things could have been overcame by not bottlenecking the technology and be not being ready for HD. That is still the worst of the egregious offenses Nintendo has put out over the last 3 years. This stinks!
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Luigi Dude on July 06, 2015, 12:09:50 AM
They weren't trying to be the Wii again though. Being the Wii again would have meant just slapping more RAM on Wii hardware and releasing a simplified controller again. They tried to solve the issue of appealing more to traditional gamers by actually investing in more powerful hardware since the gap between the Wii and Wii U is a huge one, something you all seem to forget. Yes it's not as powerful as the competition but it was still a full generation leap from Nintendo's previous hardware, something the Wii was not. Not to mention they included a traditional controller into the Gamepad so traditional games could all be played by everyone right at the box, unlike the Wii which forced everyone to buy the separate Classic Controller if they wanted something like that, and many games didn't even support the thing.
See that's the problem with the Wii U, Nintendo thought they could have a nice middle ground but they ended up making something that appealed to neither. The more powerful gap and improved HD visuals the Wii U games offered over their Wii counterparts wasn't going to sway the casuals since they were never concerned about graphics in the first place but it wasn't powerful enough for traditionals since they had seen similar graphics already and wasn't powerful enough for PS4/One games to be ported. Then the controller ended up being too complicated for casuals while not offering anything compelling enough to really make traditionals go for it. So in the end Nintendo was left with a system that didn't appeal to anyone expect for their existing fanbase which they managed to mess up since most of the Wii U's biggest games that appeal to that fanbase had similar titles released on the much cheaper 3DS earlier.
Actually going the real Wii route would have probably helped Nintendo since releasing a modified Wii with a simpler controller that blatantly aimed at one audience would have allowed them to advertise the system much better with a lower price and the ability to get more games out faster during the first year which would have been a huge boast.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Nile Boogie Returns on July 06, 2015, 11:15:23 AM
True, its a generational leap above the Wii but in specs only. Nintendo themselves didn't build/design the system with enough leeway or learning curve for themselves and it took them far too long to come to market. This is not based only on graphics per se but software wise. NintendoLand, while a great party game didn't shine as well as it could. There was nothing to prove out the "Next_Geness" of the system. They could have had a more powerful system and the potential for the future would sell the system (ala PS4) or g the they could have had the software ready to show what the system is truly capable of and not make us wait for the gems. Mind you they are getting a ton of excellent software out on the system but having a better launch lineup would have...hell I don't know looked better from a future standpoint.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Ian Sane on July 06, 2015, 01:31:52 PM
They weren't trying to be the Wii again though. Being the Wii again would have meant just slapping more RAM on Wii hardware and releasing a simplified controller again.
What is the theoretical appeal of such a product? What does a Wii with more RAM provide to the customer that makes it a worthwhile purchase? Keep in mind also that the Wii barely made it within the timeframe where SD only was acceptable. At the very least anything that connects to a TV in 2012 needed to support HDTV. They don't even sell any other type of TV these days.
To me the Wii U is the Wii again. It's a Wii successor from the perspective of a company that didn't really understand why they had such a successful product in the first place. They thought outdated hardware + wacky controller + dumb name = $$$. They launched the Wii without a new Wii Sports and I don't mean a literal Wii Sports sequel I mean a game with the selling power of Wii Sports. Wii Sports was a dream game. You wave this wand thing and the guy on the screen does the same thing! WOW! Everyone I know fantasized about such a game since the first day they found out videogames were a thing. The Wii U had nothing like that. So you've have a console that superficially follows the Wii template but it missing the one element that made the Wii successful in the first place and on top of that the audience has left for smartphones. It was over before it began.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Luigi Dude on July 06, 2015, 02:20:09 PM
Doesn't matter what some of you think, to Nintendo the Wii U was different from the Wii. They released a more powerful and expensive HD system, with a controller that aimed more at the traditional audience then the Wii did. They also created entirely new engines for all their franchises unlike the Wii where they were able to easily reuse all their Gamecube engines for cheaper and quicker support, which is why the Wii had an amazing 1st year software wise. Even the flagship of the Gamepad, Nintendo Land was a game designed to appeal to both casuals and traditional, which is why as a game it's a lot more complex then Wii Sports ever was.
This is why don't be surprised if the next home console is a REAL Wii over again, where they just upgrade the Wii U's hardware and give it a simpler more unique controller so they can sell it at a cheaper price, easier to advertise and the ability to easily reuse all those new Wii U engines for quicker development so it has a stronger 1st year lineup. Anyone expecting Nintendo to suddenly go all out in power for their next home console is just setting themselves up for disappointment since to Nintendo, the Wii U was the more powerful and expensive option and it failed.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Ian Sane on July 06, 2015, 02:55:04 PM
Doesn't matter what some of you think, to Nintendo the Wii U was different from the Wii. They released a more powerful and expensive HD system, with a controller that aimed more at the traditional audience then the Wii did. They also created entirely new engines for all their franchises unlike the Wii where they were able to easily reuse all their Gamecube engines for cheaper and quicker support, which is why the Wii had an amazing 1st year software wise. Even the flagship of the Gamepad, Nintendo Land was a game designed to appeal to both casuals and traditional, which is why as a game it's a lot more complex then Wii Sports ever was.
This is why don't be surprised if the next home console is a REAL Wii over again, where they just upgrade the Wii U's hardware and give it a simpler more unique controller so they can sell it at a cheaper price, easier to advertise and the ability to easily reuse all those new Wii U engines for quicker development so it has a stronger 1st year lineup. Anyone expecting Nintendo to suddenly go all out in power for their next home console is just setting themselves up for disappointment since to Nintendo, the Wii U was the more powerful and expensive option and it failed.
I'm sure "to Nintendo" the Wii U was the greatest idea in the universe but they have to make their decisions based on actual reality, not their own warped view of it. Do I expect them to do that? Well, no. But I'm thinking about what they should do, not what they will.
But what OTHER product could even have been made in the same style as the Wii? If you don't update the specs or change the controller in some way what is the selling point? The reason the Wii didn't really up the specs much is because the controller made it different than the Cube. There was a selling point. If it was just the conventional controller with the slightly updated specs the Wii would have been a massive bomb because it would have been a pointless product. Where else could another Wii go? Make Motion+ the standard and slightly up the specs? What noticeable advantage to the consumer is there in that? Nintendo certainly bungled the Wii U marketing since a common misconception was that it was an add-on but assuming they didn't screw that up it's easy to show the differences. The graphics are better and there's a new screen controller. Maybe they could have just updated the controller or just updated the specs but they had to do at least one of those. Otherwise it is practically the same thing as before.
To me the Wii U is pretty much the bare minimum that the Wii successor had to be. I can't think of how a product with even lesser specs could establish itself as a necessary upgrade.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: BranDonk Kong on July 06, 2015, 08:34:54 PM
Yes it was a generational leap, but it was a leap from two generations behind to one generation behind.
Title: Re: What COULD (have) save(d) the Wii U?
Post by: Nile Boogie Returns on July 07, 2015, 12:20:58 AM
