Post by: Oz_joker on June 11, 2003, 08:24:00 PM
It's like the screen has been wiped down with vasoline. Worst of all, this problem isn't on the title screen - on the title screen everything is so crisp and clean, no matter how far away, yet in the game, if it's not right up close, is blurred out,
it's SO BAD IT GIVES ME HEADACHES!
- Argh, my eyes!!!
Why the hell did Nintendo ruin a perfectly good game by blurring everything except things right up and close to the player?
Also, I've noticed that sometimes theres strange, faint, vertical lines going up the screen, although this mostly occurs when day is changing into night a vice-a-versa.
Anybody else experienced these things?
'LaTeR!
Post by: Ocarina Blue on June 11, 2003, 08:31:51 PM
Post by: PIAC on June 11, 2003, 08:39:06 PM
and are you sure the verticle lines arn't Tordados/Twisters?
Post by: KDR_11k on June 11, 2003, 08:49:48 PM
Post by: Oz_joker on June 11, 2003, 08:59:16 PM
I have noticed that over the past few years, the quality of Nintendo's products has declined.
Gamecube's with skipping disc drives, GBA SP's with faulty screen's, and now this.
I don't mean to bitch, but these things are REALLY un-acceptable.
But it's the fact that Outset island is so clear on the title screen, yet so blurry in the game - I feel kinda cheated.
Maybe it's becuase I have a large progressive scan HDTV that I notice this, and you guys don't, so you don't really see it on your smaller T.V.'s - I don't know.
If the blurring was done to allow greater draw in and distance, I would have MUCH prefered some pop up and keep everything crisp and clean.
Honestly, it's worse than the blurring in some N64 games, which makes it all the more worse.
And no, the occasional faint vertical white lines aren't the tornadoes!
Post by: Nintega on June 11, 2003, 09:17:32 PM
Post by: PIAC on June 11, 2003, 09:17:37 PM
if its too blury dont play it, return it.
Post by: Oz_joker on June 11, 2003, 09:31:10 PM
It just means that I can only play for 10 minute intervals at a time before my eyes need 5 minutes to recover.
It's a just a shame that THIS game has to be cursed with this problem.
It couldn't be some 3rd party crap game that nobody cares about - oh no - it had to be Zelda. Oh, the humanity.
You guys don't know what it's like - every other game, Metroid Prime, Mario Sunshine, Rogue Leader - they all look utterly beautiful on my T.V., yet Zelda.....uggghhhh.
If you don't have a HDTV, you probaBly don't know what I'm talking about.
It's just so.....AGGRAVATING.
My eyes are feeling better, so I'm going back for another 10 minute bash!
'LatEr!
Post by: popkorn1 on June 11, 2003, 11:03:26 PM
Post by: Rogue on June 12, 2003, 12:53:32 AM
Post by: PIAC on June 12, 2003, 01:13:34 AM
Post by: thecubedcanuck on June 12, 2003, 02:14:23 AM
Quote
have noticed that over the past few years, the quality of Nintendo's products has declined.
Its about time someone else said this. I agree 100%
Post by: PIAC on June 12, 2003, 02:22:00 AM
Post by: Mario on June 12, 2003, 03:02:03 AM
Post by: Termin8Anakin on June 12, 2003, 03:16:40 AM
Oz-Joker.
But he does have a valid point.
Remember how I got Zelda and said how blurry it was?
I think the thing with the draw distance is great and 'realistic', but I think the blurriness comes a little too close. I'm used to it now, and can play fine, but the 'draw distance' is too close. There shouldn't be any blurring at all when you're on the islands, but lo and behold, there is.
Joker has a valid point.
But don't kill me for agreeing with him.
Please.
No, don't get that axe out PIAC. Mario, how did you get my sais?
*runs for Termin8's life*
Post by: Infernal Monkey on June 12, 2003, 04:10:55 AM
Post by: Termin8Anakin on June 12, 2003, 04:39:43 AM
other than decrease the colour of course.
Post by: StRaNgE on June 12, 2003, 04:56:37 AM
i have no idea how those slipped through but yet again you can easily over look them if you just get into the game both things are forgotten.
Post by: nitsu niflheim on June 12, 2003, 05:29:41 AM
Post by: Pale on June 12, 2003, 07:32:04 AM
Post by: ThePerm on June 12, 2003, 10:41:39 AM
Post by: ThePerm on June 12, 2003, 10:42:52 AM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 12, 2003, 12:07:48 PM
Everywhere else looks OK. The dungeons look just fine. I think the closer Elf Boy Wonder is to home, the worse his eyesight gets.
Post by: Grey Ninja on June 12, 2003, 12:13:52 PM
But I really don't think it's THAT big of a complaint.
Post by: Cube323 on June 12, 2003, 12:43:30 PM
Refrain from personal attacks or you will be banned from the forums. - Jonny
Post by: Ninja X on June 12, 2003, 12:45:18 PM
Play on a smaller TV.
Post by: thecubedcanuck on June 12, 2003, 12:56:42 PM
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Not once did I notce this "blurring." I truthfully think this topic was started by another little "hater" with nothing to do but bash Nintendo.
Please, it is as blurry as hell.
Quote
Serisoulsy, I am totally sick of all of these "my gamecube/gba is broke" or "somethings wrong with my game" topics. Most of the time all of these complaints are made by people who dont even own the game or system they are complaining about
LMAO, oh the conspiracy. Gimme a break.
Post by: Cube323 on June 12, 2003, 01:04:04 PM
Open your freakin eyes. This happens in all web forums. Unfortunately, it seems that if you are a Nintendo fan, you have to put up with this $H*T the most. Why? Because $ony fans often act like nazi's and they feel the need to spread their hatred everywhere.
More personal attacks edited out. Be civil or don't post. - Jonny
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 12, 2003, 01:29:01 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Grey Ninja
since the game is supposed to be like an interactive cartoon, and cartoons are known for crisp lines.
You forgot to mention that backgrounds in cartoons tend not to be nearly as detailed and sharp as the characters themselves, to shift emphasis to the character and make them stand out. Backgrounds are rarely given the same amount of outlining detail as foreground characters/objects, otherwise you would lose the sense of distance and depth.
Wind Waker's depth blurring is justified, but was way overdone on Outset Island, hence the bitching. It used to bother me too, until I left the island.
Post by: Oz_joker on June 12, 2003, 01:34:56 PM
I, if anybody, is a Nintendo fan. My bedroom is loaded with all types of Nintendo icons, and my idol is Shiggsy.
However, I, unlike some of you, am not biased, and will freely speak my mind, good or bad, about any topic.
I, of all people, do not appreciate being called a "system basher", the definition of which is utterly ludicrous, and intend to report your crude comments to the board administrator.
Despite my user name, Oz_joker, I am not joking, as these are issues with the game that I am 100% serious about.
Many of you are Americans, believers of "Free Speech". You should be ashamed of yourselves.
In addition, replies from others to my thread have confirmed my observations while playing the game.
The fact is, objects a mile from Link should blur, but not objects 10 feet - 1 mile, that's simply rediculous. Yes, I will concede that this blurring does not occur in the dungeons, only outside, but the dungeons probably only represent less than 5% of the game.
Post by: Cube323 on June 12, 2003, 01:55:37 PM
Finally, I dont mean to seem hostile, its nothing personal I can assure you. I am just sick of all of the bashers that come to this site in an attempt to bring everyone down. Just search through the threads in this forums and you will see what I mean. Idiots making foolish claims that really have no basis in reality. 10 years olds with nothing better to do than lie and complain about stuff they don't even own. And ,believe it or not, actual Video Game Industry Publicisits (mainly from $ony) who monitor many of the popular web boards for their "market research." It just drives me insane.
Seriously, I think if you have a problem, return the game and quit bitching about it. Theres no reason to come here and whine.
Post by: AngusPodgorny on June 12, 2003, 02:34:54 PM
I could also make other complaints, mainly regarding visual artifacts that are only visible when running in progressive scan mode. It's disappointing that they have these problems; it's 2003 after all.
It's still a great game, gameplay-wise.
-Angus
Post by: Polyethylene on June 12, 2003, 03:44:29 PM
Post by: Raising_Hell on June 12, 2003, 03:52:33 PM
Well as is has been said, the blurring is used to simulate depth of field, a focal effect, like when a camera focuses on something close to it, then the background gets blurry. I really found this addition to be great, I don't know why it would bother anyone. They used this to make the objects and characters in the foreground to look more realistic when viewed against a background with a great distance. If you've ever tried any 3d software just using a slight focal effect instantly makes the image more realistic, makes the object pop out. It happens in WW too. Try bringing the camera to a nice side view close to the boat when you travel and you'll notice that the whole scene looks as if Link and the boat are almost plastic models you can reach out and catch. Neat. But still, this effect is only noticable when travelling at sea, and it's nice to look at while you wait to get to your destination.
So, it's not your TV's not the color, maybe the sharpness will fix things abit but it's not there to make the game run faster or make the Cube draw the world in a greater distance, quite the contrary this effect takes more to do. You see, this effect take the rendered image, uses the z-buffer information of each pixel to find out how far from the camera the pixel is and if it's farther than a given distance it get's blurred, and depending on what way they used, it's either done after the rendering or while the image is being rendered. Either way it steals power but it's nice to have it in there. Maybe next time they'll add some "director AI" and let the camera focus automatically and make nice dramatic shots here and there.
Ah, all you youngsters have gotten all used to all this 3d photoreal dolby surround nonsense, try playing 2 colored, low res, 2 frames per animation style games, that ought to make you appreciate good games, hehe. Sorry, that was my Cranky Kong outburst.
Post by: Termin8Anakin on June 12, 2003, 05:13:30 PM
They really do look 3D!
Are they? Or aren't they?
Post by: Grey Ninja on June 12, 2003, 05:28:19 PM
Anyways, I have to agree with the thread starter that there IS a noticable blur. I will not agree with people like Cubed Canuck though in that it's a sign of Nintendo's failure as a game company, or whatever else he was spouting off.
I have just started a new game yesterday, and I do notice the blurring, and I can imagine it would be a lot more noticable on a big TV, but I still don't see the problem with it. It's not like you can't see what's going on, and it's not like it looks terrible. It just provides another layer to the game.
And yes, speaking as a coder, I will back up what Raising_Hell said. Nintendo is doing some sort of fancy framebuffer effect, and it is taking time to do it. It's not to ease the workload any. They could have just as easily swapped out the models for distant objects. (which I suspect that they might have done anyways)
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on June 12, 2003, 07:39:30 PM
Yes, there is blurring in the game, but it is more prominent in certain areas. And I've played the game in progressive scan (VGA cable) and S-Video. I agree that they could have toned the effect down a little (it was too high in Mario Sunshine as well), but I got used to it. I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one seeing those strange vertical lines! Those things DO drive me crazy.
Post by: SilverBack1138 on June 12, 2003, 08:08:16 PM
Post by: The Omen on June 12, 2003, 08:50:19 PM
As for Nintendo products declining quality, i have to disagree. Every year, my favorite games are from Nintendo, and i play a lot of games on a lot of systems and PC. People need to stop worrying so much about graphics, and play the freaking game. Zeldas graphics are mostly incredible, animation is great. You kids would have committed suicide playing the Atari 2600, Colecovision or even the trusty old NES if all you cared about was graphics. And if you owned those systems,( like Cubed Canuck has) then you realize that we've been spoiled in a lot of ways because the improvments in visual quality have been done in a very short time. Go play your old SNES or Genesis, and see how much improvement there has been in just 10 years.
Bottom line, play the game, enjoy it. Or throw it out your window and never play it again, just stop bitching non-stop...especially about a game of the year candidate.
Post by: Pale on June 12, 2003, 09:03:36 PM
It seems obvious that the opinions on the blurring seem to strictly follow those who have progressive capabilities and those who don't. Maybe it does look extremely funky on a progressive tv and nintendo didn't design it for that because that is such a small percentage of the population. Who knows, new effects like that have to go through trial and error before they can be perfected.
Post by: Oz_joker on June 12, 2003, 09:25:07 PM
I believe that there are two types of critisism, positive and negative.
Positive is about raising an issue, with the intention that, in the future, the problem will be corrected for the better. Then there is negative critisism, bitching for no reason but to degrade a person /company.
If your English teacher tells you that he/she would prefer it if you re-structured a sentence, do you verbally assualt them? No!It's called positive critisism. There's a problem, that you think should be corrected to better the overall quality of a collective piece of work.
My issues with the game are not imaginary - others have noticed the intense blurring and strange, faint vertical lines as well.
Other than these distractions, the game is great.
Assuming the effect is intentional and not a result of technical limitations, maybe Nintendo should include a depth of field blurring option in future titles? Those strange, faint vertical lines still a concern though!
I encourage all to raise positive and negative issues regarding Nintendo hardware and software. Don't feel obliged to only post pro-Nintendo threads, fearing that any negative connotations with the big N will result in a quick death. Reality is not based on a Brady Bunch framework - there are positive and negative things in all aspects of like - including games!
'LaTeR!
Post by: Termin8Anakin on June 12, 2003, 10:15:16 PM
Is it your eyesite or something? And what vertical lines?
I acknowledge the blur, but vertical lines?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 13, 2003, 12:05:11 AM
Post by: Mario on June 13, 2003, 03:42:26 AM
Post by: Termin8Anakin on June 13, 2003, 03:56:09 AM
limitied colours?
My eyes see not these things.
Post by: AngusPodgorny on June 13, 2003, 05:22:07 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
He's referring to the color dithering patterns visible in flat shaded areas like the ocean waters, especially noticeable during sunrise and sunset where the color tones of the waters go through rapid transitions. Why does dither occur? Cuz the game is processing more color information than the hardware's color palette conveniently allows.
That sounds like a reasonable explanation. However, dithering usually results in color banding. I've never seen dithering produce regularly spaced vertical lines over the whole screen, as are present in WindWaker (and only WindWaker). They're pretty much visible all the time on my TV.
For those of you who haven't seen the lines, imagine looking at the game through the bars of a jail cell, where the "bars" are lighter-colored than the area in between them.
Someone mentioned that Nintendo might not be too concerned about progressive scan users, since they represent such a small percentage of the game-buying public. I agree with this. Many games have problems when running in p-scan mode. Example: FMV sequences often appear very blocky, possibly because they're designed for display on an interlaced device, and they're using some type of upscan algorithm. Didn't all Dreamcast games support VGA resolution? How many years ago? Then they get ported to gamecube and progressive scan support is removed. It doesn't really add up.
Nintendo makes great games; let there be no confusion. I think they're just perhaps a little too reluctant to fully embrace new technology.
-Angus
EDIT: Apparently, I think faster than I type, which causes me to skip words that are essential in understanding the sentence.
Post by: StRaNgE on June 13, 2003, 05:53:48 AM
but the real question now is for cube, who has sworn to have played through the game twice and still has not noticed an effect that is on every single copy of wind waker but his. how rare his disk must be with no blur effect upon it. hold onto that you have a collectors item on your hands, what were the odds that cube would get the only disk made without that effect.
Post by: Oz_joker on June 13, 2003, 02:07:17 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: AngusPodgornyQuote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
Someone mentioned that Nintendo might not be too concerned about progressive scan users, since they represent such a small percentage of the game-buying public. I agree with this. Many games have problems when running in p-scan mode. Example: FMV sequences often appear very blocky, possibly because they're designed for display on an interlaced device, and they're using some type of upscan algorithm. Didn't all Dreamcast games support VGA resolution? How many years ago? Then they get ported to gamecube and progressive scan support is removed. It doesn't really add up.
-Angus
But Nintendo has gone out of it's way to include Progressive scan support in it's games, so surely these vertical lines aren't a result of poor Pro-Scan support - Nintendo must have been aware of their presence in the game.
I've played MANY games on my television, cell-shaded and non-cell-shaded, but this is the only game that seems to suffer from this problem. Very strange.
Post by: NeoShaggy on June 13, 2003, 09:06:41 PM
I'm trying to find a good video config to reduce the effect, If someone has found a good one, please post it.
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on June 13, 2003, 09:57:35 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 14, 2003, 01:25:32 AM
To see an EXTREME case of dithering patterns, (in Windows) set your display to 256 colors, then open up MS Paint and checkout the colors you're allowed to paint with. Many of them are made up by dot patterns of colors.
In gentle cases, dithering causes the color banding seen in fog/smoke effects and lots of other areas in WW and Metroid Prime. The vertical lines in WW seem to be a strange dither pattern [side-effect] caused by EAD's method of calculating in-between color tones.
Whenever more colors are being processed than the current palette allows, dither may occur, as shown by 256 color modes. Many GIF picture files are full of dots as a result of dithering, to downscale the color depth.
S-Video produces clean interlaced fields, so only a vertical shimmer is present as a result of alternating upper/lower interlace scanlines. Composite/RCA cables produces a horizontal shimmer ON TOP OF the vertical shimmer, causing a noticeable "dancing dot" noise phenomenon on images, thus blurring/degrading detail further probably making the WW dithering not noticeable amongst all the other noise on-screen. S-video doesn't create this type of noise at all.
Post by: Hostile Creation on June 14, 2003, 02:13:46 PM
Cubed, I've gone back to not liking you at all. If you did anything other than complain, you'd be okay, but Christ, you whine so damn much.
Post by: Bloodworth on June 14, 2003, 03:25:23 PM
This thread's had the potential to turn into a flame war several times, but I think it's doing ok. I'll keep my eye on it though.
Post by: AngusPodgorny on June 14, 2003, 05:06:54 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Oz_joker
But Nintendo has gone out of it's way to include Progressive scan support in it's games, so surely these vertical lines aren't a result of poor Pro-Scan support - Nintendo must have been aware of their presence in the game.
I've played MANY games on my television, cell-shaded and non-cell-shaded, but this is the only game that seems to suffer from this problem. Very strange.
I didn't mean to imply that the lines were caused by running the game in p-scan mode. I believe the lines are there in either mode.
Another example of the p-scan problems I'm talking about: When you go to the Forsaken Forstress initially, it's dark and foggy. Running the game in interlaced mode, it looks like it's supposed to look (foggy). Running the game in p-scan mode, the fog manifests itself as a strange translucent pattern of squares. It's hard to explain; maybe I can get a screen cap.
-Angus
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on June 14, 2003, 09:56:54 PM
Quote
Running the game in p-scan mode, the fog manifests itself as a strange translucent pattern of squares. It's hard to explain; maybe I can get a screen cap.
YES, and a screen cap would not due this issue justice (if you could get it at all). The dithering effect in Wind Waker’s fog (and elsewhere) is also found in Eternal Darkness. Why does this exist, and why only in progressive scan mode? Simple: think back to Super Smash Bros Melee and its deflicker filter, which averages pixels to make things softer. Well just about every GameCube game leaves that filter on for interlaced mode and off for progressive mode. However, the fog in WW and ED is created in such a way as to rely on this averaging of pixels to make their fog look natural! I'm not sure why the fog was done this way--perhaps leaving it to the deflicker removes extra overhead. I for one was bugged the hell out by the pixilated fog the first time I played both ED and WW in progressive scan. Hopefully Nintendo will fix this problem in future games.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 14, 2003, 10:09:57 PM
And there currently isn't any consumer-level capture hardware that will record from a component connection. If there was, capturing off 60fps NTSC games would be SO MUCH less painful.
