Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: toddra on August 16, 2013, 12:18:28 PM
Title: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: toddra on August 16, 2013, 12:18:28 PM
Sorry for long rant, how do you delete a post?
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: toddra on August 19, 2013, 08:12:44 PM
Alright I decided to reorganize my thoughts and try again. What I was getting at is this,
Nintendo should just make a cheap system, not too out of date but not current, something like halfway between last and next gen, keep the price down to $150ish at launch and make the best games they can and forget 3rd parties they can go it alone if they keep the price down to a reasonable second console market and that way everybody wins. That was the gist of my post but I was all over the place, so what does everybody else think? Then they can still attract the types of 3rd party games that sell on their system and not even worry about the stuff that doesn't because as an affordable second console Nintendo could be successful ever generation.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Wah on August 19, 2013, 09:33:52 PM
Hey listen! ::) toddra third partie games are not that bad, also welcome to Nintendo world report hope you stay! ~psst~ watch outfor pokepal!
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: magicpixie on August 19, 2013, 10:04:29 PM
I think that should have been their strategy for the Wii. By keeping their investment cost low on that console, they could have positioned themselves strong to release a console this gen that was at least on par with the competition. As I see it, that is the biggest hurdle to attracting devs to their system.
I think Nintendo still do not see themselves as being in the same market as Sony and MS, and as such, feel as though they need to differentiate themselves through their hardware. The Wii U, at $350 could be a significantly more powerful device if the gamepad didn't exist. The gamble there is, if the Wii U is equal to MS and Sony's consoles, does that mean people will buy it? Does that mean devs will develop for it? GameCube says no. 3DS kind of says no, but for the opposite reason(weaker hardware, better support than Vita). MS said they are pouring one billion dollars into game development for the Xbone, I don't know if/how Nintendo can compete with that.
I think the Wii U's lack of support from Nintendo stems from the weak 3DS launch which forced Nintendo to pour resources into 3DS development. Now, they are left scrambling to support a second platform, almost entirely on their own. There's a bit of the whole "chicken or the egg" debate when it comes to Nintendo's troubles. Ultimately, I think they need to lower the price of the console before Christmas significantly($50+), as the perceived value just isn't there right now. Things will get better for Nintendo if they can get their install numbers up, because they know there is a market for their games(again, gamepad cost is probably killing them right now, since they still claim to be taking a loss on each unit).
It's a difficult situation to be in. I think weathering this gen will be vital for Nintendo to be able to rebound in the next 4-5 years(they might think so too, considering their reluctance to drop the price), but this time, they will have to actually learn something from their past failures, not just say they did.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: toddra on August 19, 2013, 10:08:45 PM
It's the same thing that has been going on for years, the problem is, the chicken and the egg things doesn't really apply to Nintendo Gamecube had a good outing and then support dropped off not because of sales, it sold better than Xbox by the way, it was because they had gimped hardware, smaller capacity discs for one, no online support, too much attention to connectivity that not enough people were into. Then along comes Wii, a massive sales success but 3rd parties still snub it. Why? Because their games just do not sell on Nintendo consoles, at least not the same ones that sell on PS/PC/Xbox and that is the problem I think, they are chasing a crowed that frankly has moved on. What they need to do is reinvent themselves and I think going cheap on hardware and putting everything into game development and making ONE damn controller for the console might go a long way.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Ian Sane on August 20, 2013, 12:07:03 PM
Having to buy two consoles to get a decent game selection out of a Nintendo console is "everybody wins"? I had to do that with the Wii gen and it sucked! I find Nintendo's stubborn refusal to adhere to the industry conventions and standards that the buying public steers it towards very annoying and if they can squeak by being a half-assed "second console" then that will never change. I want Nintendo to feel that they have to cut it as one's sole console. No one else makes videogame systems under the assumption that the buyer will have another console to make up for their product's flaws. The very idea, to me, seems like intentionally making a lousy product. Either make a console that cuts the mustard on its own or don't make one at all.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Silenced on August 20, 2013, 06:14:01 PM
Companies seem to have problems with lowering prices. If a product isn't selling because nobody wants its content, that means it will never get good sales at its current price. Sports teams are guilty of this. When fans believe they're not getting their money's worth out of a team, they stop coming. Yet the tickets do not change price.
I think a big problem is that people are being raised in this Nintendo slump, and XBOX and PlayStation are more household names. It's common to associate Nintendo with Mario, and Mario is then associated with 'kiddie games'. Let's face it: they use their champion mascot all too much, and the games begin to lose their charm.
It's a more mature audience now, and the big roadblock the Wii ran into was that it was built as a casual gaming console during a time when a very large portion of the video-gaming audience didn't go in that direction. Though the motion controls were impressive, they were faulty, and since they failed to claim the technology, MC and Sony swooped in and started working on motion controls as well.
The Wii U, in effect, suffers from a combination of these problems, and when a console isn't doing good, who's going to invest in it? Nintendo's going to have to lower the price to try and get sales back up, and start shipping out some appealing games. Not doing both of those will sink this console's ship, and it'll be back to the drawing board for a new idea.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: NWR_insanolord on August 20, 2013, 08:16:16 PM
As much as some people might not like it, I think the "second console" strategy is what best suits Nintendo at this point. Unless they have a change of heart and become willing to take a significant loss on hardware chasing specs isn't going to be viable for them, and that seems like the only way they could get third parties on board.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: toddra on August 20, 2013, 08:16:34 PM
The problem is that Nintendo doesn't get it, they think people will buy their systems just because it has their name on it and that companies should just make games because it exists. I agree the third party situation sucks but the reality is Nintendo is not competent enough to fix it, if they were this would not be their fourth console in a row with this problem. The reality is at this point Nintendo has had more systems that survived in their software than not. At this point they have already gotten it in their heads they can do no wrong. Listen to Iwata as he says price is not an issue because the cheaper model doesn't sell, instead of thinking maybe it's just because the cheaper model isn't worth the price of entry? He thinks it will be just like 3DS except they are NOT using the same strategy as 3DS, there they did drop the price aggressively as well as dump resources into games. Now they make excuse after excuse and go to any website that is not devoted to Nintendo and they get nothing but hate from all parties.
I don't think Nintendo can ever turn things around period but they can survive as a single console entity. If they made their machine cheap enough and their games at high quality they could at least survive on that, maybe it sucks if you also want the bigger expensive games but there are still large numbers of people that do want the Nintendo games but don't think that a Nintendo console is worth full price just for those games, it is not the best solution but I think it could work better than their ignoring the problem and then blaming it on something unrelated like poor marketing or confusion in the market place.
They blew it with Wii U period, they are not going to win back the core crowd, not even if Ms totally blows it. They might get decent sales numbers and Nintendo games will sell well as usual but third party games are just not going to sell on a Nintendo console because the majority of people who want those games don't have any use for Nintendo and the majority of people who want Nintendo games tend to prefer Nintendo games.
I liken it to Politics, Nintendo is the third party and they are scrambling to get votes, instead of chasing after the other guys they should find the best solution to meet in the middle. I don't think Nintendo is ever going to recover because they don't get it they have lost their way and there is no evidence that they are even trying to correct their mistakes, in fact all the evidence suggest the opposite, that they are ignorant to there even being a problem.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: NWR_insanolord on August 20, 2013, 08:42:19 PM
It's crazy to say that Nintendo is ignorant to there being a problem. Unless you don't understand that Nintendo isn't always 100% truthful about what they're doing and what their motivations are and assume they really believe what they're saying in their PR, I'm not sure why you'd think that.
Nintendo says they don't think price is the problem because they don't want to lower the price, which is due to them still losing money at the current price, and they don't think lowering the price will make a big enough difference this fall to be worth the drawbacks. The real reason for not dropping the price doesn't sound as good as what they said.
Nintendo isn't capable of changing on a dime and fixing everything immediately. No company is. I don't doubt that they're taking this situation very seriously internally and taking steps to address the problems, but there was never a way to do that this fall unless they knew this was coming prior to launch.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Silenced on August 20, 2013, 08:58:16 PM
I know they can't, apology for not making that clear. It will be a process. I too believe that, as any somewhat-intelligent company would do, they are attempting to fix the problem. The main issue is wondering if they are capable of completing this process and gaining third party support. This won't happen until they show strong gaming titles, and probably a stronger console to begin with.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: toddra on August 20, 2013, 09:12:39 PM
I think they know there is a problem but they are ignorant to what the problem is. Even Nintendo fans can't agree on what the problem is so maybe I did over react.
I just don't think their franchises alone can turn things around, even in the NES days and SNES days they had strong support from Capcom, Konami, and Square, three companies that seem to ignore them this gen. Throwing them a port of a last gen game is not support that is just cashing in to make a quick buck. They needed to show the world they can make a system as compelling as the big boys and instead they decided to once again try to reinvent the wheel when they already had a perfectly good thing going in that department. I bought a Wii at launch despite it looking odd and being underpowered, I didn't care because it had unique and compelling game experiences. After a while those began to wear off and before you know it the system was stating to feel like Gamecube all over again only they just didn't even try.
I wanted to get a Wii U at launch but its just not gotten me sold this time. At the current price and as a full on competitor to Sony and MS it's not looking too hot right now. But at a more affordable price it would look better as a second console or as a budget machine. That worked out okay for the Gamecube if you recall before the price cut they had to STOP production to clear out inventory because sales dropped off, retailers and publishers are dropping the Wii U like flies, things are bad, worse than most people are admitting and Nintendo has not shown that they understand that they keep saying their strategy worked with the 3DS so it will work with the Wii U, but it is not the same strategy at all it is similar but not the same.
Maybe a SKU with out the gamepad might be in their best interest, a barebones unit with just the remote and nunchuck and a game that doesn't require the pad but still uses it if you have it. Make the pad optional for those who just don't get it and then push it as a premium gadget that might take off down the road. I don't know maybe I am just tired of getting my hopes up only to see them fizzle out, maybe Nintendo just hasn't done enough to win me back and I don't think they care enough. Maybe they should go handheld only and just exit the console race entirely.
I, like most people are waiting to see how this holiday pans out, but I think this could be too little too late. Sure they are losing money on the hardware but not on the console on the gamepad.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: NWR_insanolord on August 20, 2013, 09:25:54 PM
A SKU without the GamePad doesn't make any sense. For better or worse, Nintendo built the system around it, and removing it would cause a lot more problems than it would solve. The price will come down once the cost of the components comes down, probably sometime next year.
The main problem, as I see it, is a lack of software, which is beginning to change, but not quickly enough. I think part of that is due to their massive push to create 3DS software after its slow launch, which may have reduced the amount of resources available to Wii U development. I have no doubt that there is a lot of Wii U development within Nintendo right now that they, for whatever reason, haven't seen fit to share with us. Nintendo's tendency to wait until fairly close to release to show games gives the impression that there isn't much there, which they really need to address right now.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Stogi on August 21, 2013, 08:49:57 AM
Nintendo's problem is that they launched a half-ass product. Just like the Wii, what finally made it amazing (other than some top notch games) is the motion plus. It fulfilled the promise that we all thought we were going to receive when the system first launched.
The Wii U, however, did actually say that they can't have multi-tablet support, but that's the first thing people thought as soon as it was announced. Football games with secret plays, local multiplayer FPS with separate screens, hell even battleship. Maybe a Wii U2 will solve this problem and we'll finally see some awesome ideas come to light, but right now the tablet is simply ok and not great. That's a terrible proposition to make when it is what the entire console is based around.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Oblivion on August 21, 2013, 12:43:50 PM
Local multiplayer FPS do have separate screens. They did that at launch with Black Ops 2.
Have you used the controller? It isn't a "tablet controller" at all. It's a traditional controller with a touch screen on it. Their mistake wasn't the controller, it was the power of the system not being even close to the other two system to entice 3rd party developers. Again.
It seems to be popular around here to bitch about a system half of you don't even own.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: toddra on August 21, 2013, 05:19:22 PM
Exactly Oblivion why there is a problem, why should be purchase a system that is not meeting our needs? Did you just buying it because Nintendo told you to? I stopped doing that a while back I, like most people, just got fed up and we are holding out hope that it will get better, so far that ain't happening though. I am willing to give it some more time but I can't sit around and wait forever for games to materialize if they don't show up then that's that.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Silenced on August 21, 2013, 05:35:16 PM
There will always be a large population of gamers that will buy material just because of the brand name. Why do you think Call of Duty is always planned for success?
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: NWR_insanolord on August 21, 2013, 05:45:08 PM
I really don't think the lack of power is the problem. If that were the only reason they weren't supporting the Wii U then we'd be getting a ton of games this fall that were ported from the PS3 and 360, two platforms the Wii U would have no issue ports from.
Nintendo won't ever charge $500 for a game console, which they'd have to to put out something on the level of the PS4 and XB1 even without the GamePad. They're playing a different game from Microsoft and Sony, whether we like it or not.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: toddra on August 21, 2013, 05:57:49 PM
and I used to be one of them, most of us are in fact that way. The thing is Call of Duty continues to give it's audience what they want, Nintendo on the other hand does not, they fix one thing but they break two others. I want to want a Wii U, I wanted a Wii U but I have to consider the value, for what is currently available it's too much money, right now there are two games for it I would buy, when Wii launched I had five games on launch day and ten more buy the end of the summer, then things started to slow down. Wii U didn't even launch with five games I wanted. Nintendo blames it on developing in HD, well that is just a lame excuse. Nintendo fans blame it on 3Ds development also not a valid excuse because Nintendo has always had different teams working on their handheld games than their console games so there is no reason to believe that has changed unless Nintendo themselves says otherwise and so far they have not to my knowledge done that.
BUT as a budget console the Wii U would be more appealing because then people can still get some value out of Nintendo's better games and not worry so much about the missing 3rd party games. As a primary console it is NOT going to cut it because too many games have already been dumped and I am sorry but saying maybe next year they might get a year old port of a game everyone else will be playing this holiday is not going to cut it anymore. Why should I get excited to play a game a year from now everyone else is playing already? Why should I buy a console on the hopes things might get better when the last three generations prove otherwise? If this was coming off just one failure it would be different but Nintendo has burned too many people too many times. It's not that we don't have brand loyalty I do, believe me that is why I still want a 3DS, because it at least has enough games to justify the cost.
So maybe next year games will start coming and then it will be worth it but what happens if this holiday does not go well and more companies drop support? What happens if this turns out to be Nintendo's Dreamcast what then? Buy it on the hopes it might someday be a valuable collectors item? I did that in the 90's with Marvel Comics and got burned royally on that so no thanks.
Nintendo should NOT have let it get to this point, they should have fixed this LAST GEN when they were on top! There is NO excuse for this. My proposal of them going it alone is because everyone would be better off if they went 3rd party but they won't do that so this is a compromise, keep ignoring third parties long enough and hey we get the picture Nintendo sells consoles to sell Nintendo games. Okay sure they make some of the best games ever, but they it's not like every game they make is worth buying. Plus there are tons of game genres they don't bother with. With Dreamcast when Sega lost EA it wasn't a huge deal because back then Sega Sports was actually better than EA anyways and the 2K games were pretty damn good. Nintendo got of the sports game a long time ago, and no Mario sports don't count if you like them fine but they don't do anything for most sports gamers that is for sure. Losing EA is a bad thing for Nintendo and I haven't seen any evidence that is being fixed.
This holiday will not fix things when the Nintendo gamers who also enjoy Madden or NBA Live find out those games won't be on the system they will wait for the price drop or like most people did with Dreamcast, the clearance sales. NOBODY should be waiting for the clearance sales this early in the game and that is what will happen if they do not fix this NOW. They blew it so how is waiting till next year going to fix this holiday? I mean Mario 3d world looks great but not $400 dollars great. I want Watch Dogs too and whatever next gen system I get that will be a day one for me, but right now me and a lot of other ex-Nintendo gamers are just hoping against hope they can turn things around and this time I would almost rather just buy a fucking Playstation and be done with it and pick up a Wii U on clearance next holiday.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: NWR_insanolord on August 21, 2013, 06:16:19 PM
You act like Nintendo could just magically fix third party support if they just tried. Outside of outright paying for support, Nintendo can't really do much more than they have already done. The Wii U was designed to appeal to developers, and we saw a lot of that early on, but since then support has dried up.
This is about money. Third parties don't think they can make enough by supporting the Wii U to be worth it. You could argue that they haven't given it a fair enough chance, such as EA completely dropping support after releasing four games that, while quality titles, were released 3-6 months after they came out on other platforms, but they have seen a long history of poor sales on Nintendo platforms and have been quick to jump out.
Again, what could Nintendo do to fix that besides buying support? They worked with third parties to design the hardware, they've offered them help with development resources, but at the end of the day, the money's not good enough for them. How is that Nintendo's fault?
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Sarail on August 21, 2013, 07:21:18 PM
I really think it's time for Nintendo to dig into that war chest of theirs, and start buying and/or building development teams to create games that appeal to each individual type of game(r). EA doesn't want to put their sports games on Wii U? Fine. Nintendo need to create several studios and bring back the Nintendo Sports branding of games. Time to get serious, but also give it that Nintendo flair of quality that would outshine any sports game EA could make.
Same goes for the third-person/first-person shooter crowd. Build a studio or two that specialises in that type of game environment, and get to work on designing games for that type of audience. This isn't rocket science. And Nintendo have the money to do it. It can be done - it's just going to require Nintendo Co., Ltd. swallowing a bit of pride in the process. Oh, and marketing. MARKET MARKET MARKET until your image with gamers changes positively. Shove it down their collective throats that Nintendo is about making games, not just games that everyone can play, but games FOR EVERYONE - individual games that appeal to each and every individual sect of gamer. If Nintendo truly want to become a company for all gamers, then it's time to get serious and DO IT.
Nintendo can earn their mind share back. It's just going to require a bit of hard work.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: toddra on August 21, 2013, 07:39:04 PM
That is what I was saying Insanolord they lost 3rd party support and there is nothing they can do to get it back! That is why the need to drop the damn price and go it alone.
The lack of games is not the only thing that makes it look over priced. For fifty dollars more the PS4 will not only have a more robust library it will also have tons of other secondary features that the Wii U is lacking. If they console was say $100 cheaper than PS4 it might make a stronger argument but right not the value for the money is just not there. Sure Nintendo will have to take a loss for the short term, but they can afford it with their financials being what they are as well as 3ds sales to offset any losses they may incur. It won't bring 3rd parties back but it might soften the blow for those of us on the fence.
Don't get me wrong I love Nintendo and I want them to succeed but I just can't find the same level of optimism I used to anymore things have just been this way too long. In the Gamecube days I would defend them to the death, I tried to defend the Wii but it was getting hard to do each passing month. With Wii u I just can't seem to justify the price for what you get. GameCube was $150 less than Wii U is now and it was selling better at the same point in time and facing much stiffer competition from the PS2.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Ian Sane on August 21, 2013, 08:03:45 PM
The second the Wii U was revealed to be about a PS360 equivalent using the same last gen hardware approach of the Wii it was screwed for third party support. Yeah the third party support dried up a little quicker than I figured it would but there was no way that it was going to be even remotely healthy once the PS4 and XB1 came out and made the Wii U incompatible for multiplatform development. Even if the Wii U got tons of PS360 ports this would last until next year at best when development for the old consoles would fade out. Third parties feel they have to make multiplatform games and a console that doesn't allow that gets nothing. The Wii U doesn't allow for this and third parties know it so they gave it a token effort to see if it was a big hit at launch and they could get a year or two out of it and it didn't sell well so they bailed. The best case scenario was that they were going to do this next year instead of this one. It was going to happen no matter what. The Wii U doesn't fit with anyone's plans but Nintendo's and the weak little ports it got at launch were just third parties hedging their bets so they wouldn't miss out if Wii-mania hit again.
The Wii U either has to go it alone or be shitcanned and replaced with something that actually jives with industry conventions by Christmas 2014. It is incapable of having good third party support. It might as well be an Atari 2600 for the all the **** use it is for multiplatform development. Of course anyone with the slightest familiarity with the videogame industry could see this a mile away but it doesn't surprise me that the company that didn't know HD games take more time and resources to make (hey Nintendo welcome to fuckin' 2006; do you guys literally work in a soundproof bubble?) would miss that.
The only way it will turn around is if the Wii U is so unbelievably successful that making Wii U exclusives is MORE lucrative than making multiplatform PS4/XB1/PC games. So that would take what? Being at least twice as successful as the Wii, maybe more?
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Silenced on August 21, 2013, 09:06:22 PM
It's probably best to wait until that point, trying to salvage the Wii U. It's a little too early to throw it away entirely, but it is a good idea to start thinking about making an improved console if Nintendo is to keep up with the competition. I wanted to say this earlier, and the Wii experienced this problem too; the games being made for PS3 and XBOX360 are not designed for/don't work as well with Nintendo's software.
I appreciate the fact that they are trying to be creative and innovative, but, to put it plainly, it's not working.
It's possible to say more, but at this point I think we all know the solution to the problem, continued posting is just fancy-wording of the conclusion.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: MagicCow64 on August 21, 2013, 09:16:22 PM
Really doubt we're going to see a PS4 equivalent Nintendo console anytime soon. They're not going to bail on the WiiU for at least two years. You have to imagine they've got all the resources they can muster working on games for 2014 and 2015. If things are still this dire holiday 2014, then I could imagine them planning an early-ish 2016 obsolescence for a fall launch of a new device. But at that point, it would be nuts to release a graphics/feature parity console against the well-established PS4/XBone, and we'd probably be looking at the mythical hybrid console, essentially ceding the dedicated living room space. (Though there's always the chance that next gen fizzles compared to the current one. Who knows what happens in that universe.)
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: BranDonk Kong on August 21, 2013, 09:24:34 PM
Hmmm...halfway between last gen and current get...if only they could release a system like that...
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: the asylum on August 21, 2013, 09:57:34 PM
Don't get me wrong I love Nintendo and I want them to succeed but I just can't find the same level of optimism I used to anymore things have just been this way too long. In the Gamecube days I would defend them to the death, I tried to defend the Wii but it was getting hard to do each passing month. With Wii u I just can't seem to justify the price for what you get.
It's been a long, dark age for us lifelong Nintendo fanboys.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: pokepal148 on August 21, 2013, 10:19:31 PM
Hmmm...halfway between last gen and current get...if only they could release a system like that...
You joke, but if they released it halfway through the generation instead of when new consoles were about to come out it might work. I'd bet the Wii U would have been a big success if it had come out in 2010 instead of 2012.
Actually, this could work out great for Nintendo. They could get on a completely different cycle from Sony and Microsoft, launching hardware about halfway through the life of their consoles, so they could more affordably match the hardware specs of them while still having enough time to get support because of it. They could then carry on a few years into the following Sony/MS generation, while the former consoles are still getting support and the new ones are still finding they're footing, and then swoop in with their own.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: BranDonk Kong on August 22, 2013, 12:45:09 PM
I agree. They waited too long, and now with PS4 and Xbone, it's hard to make the argument for someone to buy a Wii U unless they simply love Nintendo games.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Ian Sane on August 22, 2013, 12:52:25 PM
That idea of being on a different cycle is not a bad idea. That could totally work. The Wii U is probably not going to last five years so its replacement could kick this strategy off.
.... knowing Nintendo they probably thought they WERE doing that with the Wii U. The strategy would require being very hip to the industry so as to have a good idea of when Sony and MS are going to drop their next console. Timing would be everything so do we realistically expect Nintendo of all companies to be able to pull that off?
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Sarail on August 22, 2013, 01:15:51 PM
I look at things this way...
All of those late PSOne gamers and Xbox and PS2 gamers that were in their adolescent/pre-teen years are now old enough to have graduated college - which means they're finding jobs working for game publishing companies, or even becoming game developers themselves. What's frustrating is that their general dislike for Nintendo is, I feel, a big reason why you're not seeing support from western third-parties. If you don't like Nintendo, why would you even develop for their console to begin with?
Now, I realise this isn't true for ALL developers/publishers, but I'm certain a good portion of them come from this pool of gamers now.
And then, yes, you have Nintendo fans out there who are now developers that want to develop games for Nintendo, but publishers get in the way. It's a battle that just can't be won until Nintendo make strides to improve their image among all gamers.
It's the industry and world that we currently live in.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: toddra on August 22, 2013, 01:23:01 PM
I think there may be some truth to that, I am getting into development and I would kill to make games for Nintendo. My brother in law worked for a certain company I can't say and he told me nobody in the studio would ever work on a project that went to a Nintendo machine and so far all their games have either been PS3/360 or PC exclusive. And none of their games wouldn't have been too taxing for the Wii.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: NWR_insanolord on August 22, 2013, 01:58:58 PM
New, young hires at game development houses aren't making decisions about what platforms they're making games for. The people making those choices are higher ups at publishers, and they're basing them on money, not personal feelings. If executives at EA thought they could make good money on the Wii U they'd be making games for it, whether the developers liked Nintendo or not.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: toddra on August 22, 2013, 02:02:21 PM
Well the company he worked for was pretty small and I am planning going the indie route at first. But to be honest I really don't care where my games end up as long as they find an audience.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Ian Sane on August 22, 2013, 05:01:11 PM
I guess a kid today dreaming about making Nintendo games would be kind of like if as a kid I was dreaming about making TurboGrafx-16 games. :)
For most of my life if I imagined myself making videogames I always imagined Nintendo being the publisher. But that changed with the Wii. Frankly my ideas no longer jived with them. I didn't want motion controls and didn't want to stick to Gamecube era hardware. I think it's natural for people to be ambitious in their creativity. Conservative creativity is for businessmen, not artists. Who as an artist wants to make casual games on old hardware with gimmick controllers? No one. I figure that's partially why the "real" third party games were made for the other systems and the shovelware junk for the Wii. The devs with clout that have some input on what they make had no interest in the Wii so the Wii projects went to the junior teams that get stuck with the corporate junk. Even games that did make the Wii like Call of Duty and Guitar Hero were done by other teams porting over someone else's work. The "real" team made their game for the HD consoles.
From a purely artistic standpoint what is the appeal in the Wii U? Any dev with experience has pushed the limits of Wii U level hardware for years and would want to move up to the next gen. So that leaves the Gamepad as the sole artistic hook of the system.
While every videogame company is a business, Nintendo seems a little too damn obvious about it in the Iwata era. Safe sequels, conservative hardware, constant talk about appealing to non-gamers and broad demographics - it's too blatant in being a product. People connect with creative works that appear as if they mean something, even if deep down it's just a product manipulating its audience. No one dreams about making souless product so no dev is going to be all excited about making Nintendo games if they associate the Wii U as such. I don't think this is the prime cause of the Wii U's weak third party support but I honestly can't imagine any developer being excited about making games for it.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: NWR_insanolord on August 22, 2013, 05:21:27 PM
It's ridiculous to call anything Nintendo's done "soulless". Again, these kinds of decisions are made by publishers, not developers, except in very rare cases. It's going to be a while before someone who grew up with a PlayStation is in a position to make these kinds of calls.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: the asylum on August 22, 2013, 08:22:25 PM
The more I think about it, the more I come to realize that this is a golden opportunity for Nintendo to win back the hearts and minds of the outsiders. It's too late for the Wii U, that much is already glaringly obvious (hello negative rep!) So I'm going to talk about their next console.
First off their next system needs power. The "two gamecubes taped together hurr durr" line was why the Wii was by and large ignored by big studios (except when it came to publishing their shovelware, of course). The same will likely happen with the Wii U. It's not necessarily a "HURR IT'S NINTENDO, WE'LL PASS" mentality, but sole reliance on gimmick controllers have thus far proved it's limited shelf-life.
Secondly, they need- and I mean REALLY NEED, to ditch the "Wii" brand. The word "Wii" has become irreparably and utterly toxic. Calling the new system "Wii U" really drove the point home. Completely rebranding the next system will no doubt open a lot of doors into the third party hearts.
And online. Nintendo needs to make an incredibly serious commitment to online. Yes, the Miiverse is great, but it exists within it's own little impenetrable bubble. Bring in connections with Facebook, Twitter, and the like. Nintendo may never be able to shed the "HURP DURP ONE HUNDRED DIGIT FREIND CODES LAWL" stigma, but integrating popular social media into the console will be a gigantic leap in the right direction.
And core games. Oh god does Nintendo ever need to appeal to the core audience. Not just the outsiders but their own (yes, we still exist.) Breaking out the big guns like Star Fox and F-Zero. Also a Metroid title that bumps Other M out of canon would be a welcome gesture to the choir. No, they're not Mario. Yes, they will sell like **** compared to Zelda. But this is what Nintendo needs to do on day one: Straight up grab the industry by the balls. And twist.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Wah on August 22, 2013, 10:20:08 PM
You act like Nintendo could just magically fix third party support if they just tried. Outside of outright paying for support, Nintendo can't really do much more than they have already done. The Wii U was designed to appeal to developers, and we saw a lot of that early on, but since then support has dried up.
This is about money. Third parties don't think they can make enough by supporting the Wii U to be worth it. You could argue that they haven't given it a fair enough chance, such as EA completely dropping support after releasing four games that, while quality titles, were released 3-6 months after they came out on other platforms, but they have seen a long history of poor sales on Nintendo platforms and have been quick to jump out.
Again, what could Nintendo do to fix that besides buying support? They worked with third parties to design the hardware, they've offered them help with development resources, but at the end of the day, the money's not good enough for them. How is that Nintendo's fault?
I don't think the problem is that big, Isanolord is your name a pun? Eyes= eyes of website and Lord= lord of the website? If so that's pretty cool :D
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Soren on August 22, 2013, 10:26:47 PM
It's too late for the Wii U, that much is already glaringly obvious (hello negative rep!)
Hold on there cowboy. Let's wait until the holiday season before we start making grand proclamations like that, ok?
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Kytim89 on August 23, 2013, 01:07:35 AM
I still find it stupid on Nintendo's part that they are going to let Destiny and GTA V slip from the Wii U's grasp. If there were two games that Nintendo needs to money hat it would be those two games. It is also equally insulting that Castlevania: LoS 2 and Killer is Dead will not be coming to the Wii U either. Although the games that the Wii U is getting this holiday are adequate, but I hope they sell well to justify more support.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Oblivion on August 23, 2013, 03:38:54 AM
I still find it stupid on Nintendo's part that they are going to let Destiny and GTA V slip from the Wii U's grasp. If there were two games that Nintendo needs to money hat it would be those two games. It is also equally insulting that Castlevania: LoS 2 and Killer is Dead will not be coming to the Wii U either. Although the games that the Wii U is getting this holiday are adequate, but I hope they sell well to justify more support.
stahp
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: ThePerm on August 24, 2013, 04:55:45 AM
Wii U sales will pick up, but slowly. There are a couple things that will drive this.
Zelda Price Reduction Mario Kart colors
I might make a game on Wii U, but right now my target platform is Ouya. The only reason its not showing up on Wii U is because i'm new at this.(sort of)
judging by the way pikmin 3 looks that demo they did for Zelda was actually really nothing.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: toddra on August 28, 2013, 12:10:52 PM
I was thinking about this today in my computer science class and I think I might have discovered the root of Nintendo's deeper issue that is plaguing them as a whole. I won't get too deep into this as I don't have a lot of time before my next class but I wanted to put this out there for others to consider. I think from a mainstream perspective that Nintendo's problems stem from them being a toy company first. I think to them video games are still just toys, sure they make the best toys around no arguments there. But video games have evolved to be so much more than just toys, they are entertainment, they are a medium for great storytelling, they are artistic expressions, and yes they are games too. I think that Nintendo's philosophy of game play first is dated, it is a solid philosophy and what makes them stand out but I think they do need to take a more modern approach if they want to stay relevant.
One of the reasons people often claim they don't like Nintendo games anymore is they as gamers have grown up and they view Nintendo games as kiddie, and then Nintendo gamers respond negatively. But I realize now that they are right in their feelings but they are wrong in the way they are expressing their feelings. I think what the real problem is that Nintendo's games haven't really changed since we, or us as gamers, were kids and that is what they mean by kiddie. I don't think it inherently means just for kids but that what gamers are seeing is Nintendo games have not caught up with modern game making, they have not added that artistic and big budget entertainment look to their games that the rest of the industry is now doing. Sure Nintendo still does make great games, some of the best in the world nobody in their right mind could really argue with that and be taken seriously. But their are issues with the company and I think people tend to over state the obvious without really looking deeper at the issues that are holding the company back and I really think the issue is they still view themselves as a toy industry not an entertainment industry and most people tend to associate toys with kids and I think that is where the miscommunications are coming from and why Nintendo just doesn't get their message across is because they are hearing the wrong words and responding with the wrong attitudes it doesn't mean that their games are kids games per se, their games have universal appeal and they do have their games that are not for kids or aimed at just kids so that isn't really an issue but it is obvious that they do not take their games as seriously as anything other than toys. I think that is part of what makes discussing their issues so difficult is because it is hard to pin it on one issue.
Gamecube didn't fail because it was underpowered, it was not under powered. Gamecube did not fail because it had a lack of DVD or a really odd online model that was swept under the rug before it had a chance to take off. Gamecube failed because Nintendo was short sighted and yes they put a great emphasis on game play but they did so at the expense of the deeper experiences gamers were craving and that lead to gamers who were missing out on those experiences attacking Nintendo because they felt left out and not fully understanding what the problem was gamers lashed out with whatever immediately came to mind and latched on to that. I don't think Wii U's issues are exactly transferable to Gamecube if you look at it as a technological parallel but if you look at the philosophy it is the same, gamers are tired of even the experiences PS3 has to offer and they want more, deeper, richer gameplay, not just prettier graphics. Talking to people who are looking forward to the next gen most people say they are looking forward to bigger games, larger landscapes, more enemies on screen, more depth not better graphics but just bigger worlds. Nintendo was attacked for their downplay on graphics so this gen they tried to fix that problem and let's be real Wii U graphics do not suck they are pretty damn impressive. But the depth I think is what their games are lacking. No chasing around millions in stead of thousands of Pikmin is not the type of depth we are talking here, but more like a game where the levels are larger in scope and there is more to explore and the worlds don't feel so artificial but more immersive.
Going back to replay Mario 64 the game feels like Mario is in a box with backgrounds painted on the sides. In Mario Sunshine it still felt like he was in a box but it was a larger box with smoother animations to mask the painted on backgrounds and really neat glossy paint effects to distract you from how clostraphobic it really was. I think that is also what is happening with Nintendo's other platformers and why gamers are growing tired of the New Mario franchise, it feels like they are just doing the same game with different levels and minor tweaks and gamers like the gameplay but they want more to their levels. Going from SMB to SMB3 was a big leap but looking back it really wasn't as big a leap as we remember it to be and SMW was huge when it was new and now feels like a tiny mini game that would be tacked on as a special feature of a real game.
I think that is why gamers keep asking for Zelda, Metroid, and Star Fox because those games are the closest games Nintendo has to having the level of depth modern gamers are begging for. It isn't so much the graphics that is no impressing people I think but since that is what they can articulate that is what they focus on instead of attempting to really figure it out. I have been giving this a lot of thought because like most people who grew up on Nintendo I want a Wii U, but I just can't talk myself into it until the games start to show up and not just rehashes of last gen games it needs to be new experiences and I think that is what Nintendo is failing to realize. It is like Mattel and Hasbro, both toy companies but one sticks to the tried and true and the other innovates and tries new things but keeps they old stuff and just retools it to meet the demands of the new markets where Mattel is like Nintendo they have their franchises that lay golden eggs and they don't need to innovate or think outside the box and Hasbro keeps the same franchises going but updates the **** out of them every few years and brings new stuff to the table all the time. Monopoly today is not the same as it was a decade ago, but Barbie's only real change is her wardrobe reflects modern tastes and thats about it. Transformers doesn't even look remotely familiar to the old timer but it retains the essence of the toy line. And that is what Nintendo is doing wrong, they are just dressing Mario up in modern clothes but not giving him new features like Hasbro with their toylines. Equating Mario to Barbie sounds odd at first but I think it really is a good analogy.
Well that is all the time for today, gotta get to my next class. Chew on that peeps and I will be checking back in latter.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Wah on August 28, 2013, 09:03:11 PM
That was a big reply!
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: toddra on August 28, 2013, 10:32:15 PM
Sorry it was a very long day and I had a really long wait between classes with nothing to do.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on August 28, 2013, 10:53:11 PM
I don't think the in between console works because to make it an in-between console Nintendo would have to spend R&D and have cutting edge hardware. For instance, the Wii U is viewed as an in-between console in 2013. But to make the strategy work, Nintendo would have had to have the Wii U console power in 2009/2010. This would push the price upwards ($400+) to have this come out then and would have been a harder sell for the Wii U. I also think that that puts you in the maturity phase of the PS3/Xbox 360 when those systems were picking up steam making it look like less of a bargain with fewer games.
To me it's all about 3rd parties. In America, you look at the top 10 NPD charts and it is flooded with games that aren't on Nintendo systems. Nintendo needs those games to be considered competition with Sony/Microsoft. They aren't going to get them and I'm not sure how they can get them at this point. Third parties have a consumer base that expects those games on Sony/Microsoft and not on Nintendo. Even if Nintendo was going to sell an equal amount as the PS4/One, I'm not sure why 3rd parties would feel compelled to put software on a Nintendo system because people that expect those games are going to have a PS4/One.
I know Nintendo isn't a Sega, they make money each generation and I still appreciate their games moreso than other developer games. But I still wonder if going third party would make them more money. They are trying to innovate or find the next gimmick to sell consoles because they can't compete directly with Sony/Microsoft. NSMB and several other titles sold >30M on the Wii because the userbase wasn't a limiting factor. NSMB U has sold like 2M. Nintendo isn't making money on the Wii U hardware yet and are subsidizing it with software and 3DS sales. Assuming NSMB U could have sold 30M if the Wii U userbase wasn't an issue that is almost $2 billion in additional revenue that the Wii version pulled in. Multiply that by all the big Nintendo games. Add in the fact that Microsoft would certainly pay them handsomely to be exclusive.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: toddra on September 05, 2013, 12:58:12 AM
Yeah I guess at this point going it alone is the best they can do without going full third party. I still can't believe all the hate they get as a company that is a bad sign because it shows people in general have given up on the brand as a whole. It does remind of a lot of how bad things got for Sega near the end, the only difference is Nintendo makes money on their hand helds but Sega did make money on their arcade division too which is why they kept that going even after everyone else got out. I guess I am torn between Nintendo always being around to make consoles to release their games on, and them just going third party and destroying their competition. I think third parties are treating them badly out of spite sometimes, like they know if they give Nintendo just enough support to keep them making hardware that keeps them out of their way to release games elsewhere, Imaging if you could get Zelda on PS4 Elder Scrolls would be a dud sales wise.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Spak-Spang on September 05, 2013, 02:13:34 AM
Nintendo doesn't need to worry about 3rd parties. 3rd parties will come if Nintendo presents a compelling argument for them to come. I think Nintendo coming put and sharing their agenda with the 3rd parties is important. Let's say after next year Nintendo sees the Wii U as a flop and wants to do something new at the end of year 4 instead of year 5. Then Nintendo needs to begin planning it out. Ask developers what they want, ask them what they predict the next game console to be like coming in 6-7 years and go for it.
Personally, I think Nintendo would be best to combine their handheld and console markets, and make a system that is both a handheld and a console. I don't know what that would look like...but I think Nintendo really needs to go for broke with the next systems...and don't worry about cannibalization of their own games.
What I mean is right now, Nintendo is worried about gamers not buying all their games. Well you know what STOP worrying...get games to us...and if they are good people will buy them. This is extremely important with the idea of the Virtual Console. People do not want the trickle down approach...let them all the virtual console games when they are ready...and don't sit on them. It is not like I can't buy Super Mario World a month later if I only have the budget for Earthbound today. Stop thinking in the old retail manner and start thinking like a digital retailer.
Next, don't have timid launches. Wow us at launch. Prepare to give gamers 4-5 first party games at launch. You say that gamers can't afford all those games at launch so why do it? Because gamers have different tastes...and you should not expect third party games to fill that void. Instead, launch with a good Mario, a racing game, a party game, and a Mature Nintendo franchise on day one or at least by month 3. You say Nintendo doesn't have the development houses to do this, then hire other developers to do it, with Nintendo supervision or go back to my original idea. Combine the console and handheld.
Create a system that is both console and handheld at the same time. Let gamers which version of the console they want...and then having all your developers designing games for the one singular console. I know that would mean compromises in hardware and potentially software...but you could always create games that can be scaled back...like PC games are. One version for the Console, one version for the handheld, and if you buy a version of it...you can play it on either system.
Imagine that world for a second...and tell me Nintendo wouldn't be banking money on first party games alone...and that developers wouldn't be lining up to support it?
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Adrock on September 05, 2013, 08:43:30 AM
I don't like the idea of Nintendo combining their home console and handheld hardware into one unit. They risk making a mediocre product that does two things poorly rather than two products that do two things well.
Hardware isn't really the problem for Nintendo. I believe someone from Bethesda recently said that Nintendo was less forthcoming about what they were planning with Wii U than Sony and Microsoft were with PS4 and One respectively. That may explain why so few games use the GamePad effectively and changes how we've been viewing Nintendo's situation with third parties. Nintendo has always been a secretive company, but if they ever want better support, they need to start including third parties on what they're doing from an early stage. Games take time and the earlier third parties are given information, the better. Nintendo should be less worried about Sony and Microsoft copying them (because that's just going to happen, companies copy each other all the time) and more concerned about making a product developers want to make games for and consumers want to buy.
I think Wii U can make it to 2017 as Nintendo preps a successor for Q4. 2014 is a particularly strong year from what we know so far. Still, Nintendo needs to make some major changes in terms of how they conduct business with their partners. I'm still against money hats and incurring massive losses. Better communication will go a long way. Admitting that Sony and Microsoft indeed have decent ideas and implementing them will as well. Nintendo needs to reevaluate its priorities and make some compromises, but that goes along with better communication. If third parties feel like they're in the loop and that their thoughts/concerns matter, they'll be more likely to offer support. Instead of "Here's our console. Support it," Nintendo should say, "Here's what we have so far. Help us make it better."
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Agent-X- on September 05, 2013, 12:24:32 PM
I think a compelling case can be made for Nintendo to unify their resources and thereby unify their platforms. I believe we are seeing the results of platform cannibalization in the form of the Nintendo 3DS's more complex software requiring Nintendo's full focus. The Wii U game drought is in direct correlation to this, is it not? And didn't Nintendo already combine their handheld and console divisions?
Nintendo is different enough as a hardware competitor that consumers likely wouldn't blink twice if Nintendo's next great handheld included HDMI out and wireless gaming ports. Imagine the third party support now available for play on your TV?
I don't know the best way to unify the platforms, but I think Nintendo could do really well with this model. Nintendo has really stunk it up this year because they had to focus on the 3DS and just did one of the ugliest Nintendo console launches to date. If they don't make some internal changes they are going to suck on both fronts when the 4DS (or whatever) is on par with the 360 and the home console gaming market is likewise similarly more complicated.
I don't see any way around the obvious: handheld games are catching up in complexity.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Spak-Spang on September 05, 2013, 07:48:42 PM
I think Nintendo does need to change how it does business and how it looks at this industry. I agree with much of what you say Adrock. I also agree that a handheld/console system would have to have some compromises from both sides. At the same time, I do think that a compelling product could be made...and unifying their teams to support either one hardware device, or two hardware devices that can play the same games would be a great step in that direction.
The question is how to do it? One simple idea would be to create a docking bay that is the system charger that is always plugged up to a TV. This would make it a portable device that can play on your TV. The docking device could hold additional USB ports for external hard drives and charging of extra controllers. Even some of the controller communications hardware could be inside the dock so that you could have a more efficient portable device.
Or you create two hardware devices that run the same operating system and have specs carefully designed so that games could be down scaled to the portable device easily. You could still incorporate special touchscreen controls for the portable and designers could program that into the device. This would also you to perhaps have less compromise for each individual system...but software optimization would be harder. I think this would be the easiest form to do, but would also be the least beneficial in a sense.
I think the first option is the better option. Yes you would have to compromise power for a more efficient system...but that could be overcome by the benefits of buying a game and it being easily playable at home or on the go. It would free up and allow Nintendo to create more games quicker. It would provide an easy environment to combine the eshops and allow all purchases to be played on a Nintendo device. Heck maybe have a plan like Apple and let purchases be playable on 2 to 3 devices if they are downloaded. Perhaps the biggest problem with this is Nintendo would have to go back to either SD card disks for the home console...or whatever the 3DS is using because CD/DVD games would not be a good idea for the console...or downloaded games. But then again...the industry is already moving that direction anyway.
Another interesting thought is the idea of Nintendo getting multiple purchases out of a family like they do with the handhelds. And the potential to bring all the fun and strange portable bonuses to the console....like street passes and such.
3rd parties have never had a hard time supporting Nintendo's portable devices. They know that is where the money is...and they don't care that the hardware is underpowered. If Nintendo uses that knowledge to its advantage they could create an interesting system that can attract the 3rd parties back...and potentially revolutionize the console market again by creating a single device that takes care of all your gaming needs.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Wah on September 05, 2013, 08:31:52 PM
Nintedno should focus on their handhelds as NO_ONE can bet them at that!
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Agent-X- on September 06, 2013, 12:35:43 PM
Nintedno should focus on their handhelds as NO_ONE can bet them at that!
For now.
What will the mobile/handheld gaming landscape look like in 4 years? Who can say confidently that the market for Nintendo handhelds won't shrink by 40%? Let me rephrase the question: how many current 3DS owners absolutely must have a new Pokemon game on a new handheld gaming system in 4 years?
I think it's possible that the market for dedicated handheld gaming devices could shrink significantly with the advancement of smart phones and tablets. When I put myself in the position of being a parent, and I consider what my hypothetical child's needs are I find that an Android tablet or phone plus a handheld gaming system seems redundant for anyone except the most ardent Nintendo or Pokemon fan.
Because I "get it" as a Nintendo gamer, I probably wouldn't present such an either/or choice, but if I didn't understand I would be telling the kids to knock it off and enjoy the tablet I bought them.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: toddra on September 06, 2013, 05:43:08 PM
The world isn't changing so much as the world has changed. Nintendo is struggling to catch on to that fact and they continue to play catch up.
I think they will stay strong in the mobile market but they will do so by changing their hardware model, either like as suggested building some sort of hybrid or possibly making their own tablet app ecosystem that has more than just games and also has quality buttons and controllers, you know like an iPad mini meets the 2DS or something.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Agent-X- on September 06, 2013, 07:52:19 PM
The world isn't changing so much as the world has changed. Nintendo is struggling to catch on to that fact and they continue to play catch up.
In some aspects, I think I agree with you. Nintendo has been slow to embrace online gaming and integrated connectivity. However, Nintendo certainly recognized the mobile platform before anyone else did. I can recall them talking about new market competition from Apple going back to before the DS launch. I think they understood the iPhone and iPod Touch potential before smart phones even caught on... before Angry Birds and Temple Run. They met it with two screens and Touch Generation. And now 3D.
The problem is that mobile graphics technology is advancing at a pace that will approach but not quite meet desktop/console technology. How will Nintendo adapt to this environment? They're not just battling Sony, but Microsoft, Apple, and Google for mobile/portable gaming. The latter 3 don't even have to make a focused effort to be serious competition in that market space. It's not doom or gloom for Nintendo as much as it should be a sign that their business is going to have to change and adapt. There are still a lot of people who want Nintendo games.
My big concern (which should be Nintendo's big concern) is that they are going to come up short on their ability to deliver the content. Already, I'm looking across their portfolio and feeling like I invested in the wrong device because the 3DS is getting the content I wanted for the Wii U.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Oblivion on September 08, 2013, 05:43:52 PM
LOL, what are you saying? They understood the mobile platform because it was already big before they even "understood" it. The only reason they are big in the handheld market isn't because they're good at it. It's because they've been the only kid on the block for over 20 years.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: ThePerm on September 09, 2013, 07:45:22 PM
the controls don't suck on their handhelds...like most other mobile devices.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on September 10, 2013, 03:44:11 PM
I get in theory why a hybrid console/handheld would be nice. All games one system, system easy to transport, possibly more games, cost of just one system. I just think when you look at the economics of it, it falls apart.
1. Would you get more games? Not if you own both systems today. Maybe if you own only 1, but it's certainly not 2x without a massive increase in staffing by Nintendo. From looking at development costs, it is 3-4 times cheaper to make a 3ds game. A hybrid game would have to be console 1080p level to compete in that arena. This means scratch 3-4 3ds games and add 1 hybrid game. In reality, it's worse than that because your game now has to sell 3-4 times more units to make a profit which means fewer games greenlighted. Remember Fire Emblem Wii U?
2. Excluding the Wii where everyone and their brother had one, typically the casual market was driven by the social gamer. And this determined the winner of the generation. You know the people who play Madden with their friends and buy every years edition at launch, the people who only play COD online, the people who bought an expensive tv and want the best hd system to show to their friends how awesome their tv is. These people bring 2 problems. 1 they want mainstream games that just aren't on Nintendo consoles now. Same problem, different system. 2 they want a very powerful system because they want to be awed with their friends by the graphics. In short, you need to beat your competition in tech/features. The PS4 is 400, probably cost 500 to make. Assuming you could shrink the tech for nothing you still cost more than your competitor, who subsidizes hardware, and you haven't given the console market any reason to pick you over them.
3. The handheld market. I'm 32, and love my 3ds. But lets get real here. The 3ds dominates the kid market which is a big reason why Nintendo prints money on the handheld side. That's why I don't think the 2ds is a big deal, because they already own that market. A coworker of mine has 4 daughters and they each have a Nintendo system. I thought this was strange at first, but he said when they travel in a car it is a cost effective way to keep them happy. Makes sense, when my kids are older they'll each have a Nintendo handheld unless they don't want one or Nintendo abandons the market. Thats what a hybrid would do. This market is really price sensitive. The Vita is powerful, but it can't do 1080p and it can't do what I want a console. The price of a hybrid is certainly too high to be viable alternative. And you that have kids know that you can't just buy one kid one. This is something that is an all or nothing proposition. Then there's 30 dollar games to 60 handheld games. At this point you're telling parents it's cheaper to just buy an ipad for each kid .
So in summary, I own both a Wii U and a 3ds and they do different things for me. I can't imagine a hybrid doing both things equally well. You're probably paying for both consoles as the cost to shrink Wii U power to 3ds size is probably at least the cost of a 3ds. I'll probably get fewer games than I do now as some of the awesome 3ds games take longer to make console games and others get whacked. I'll pay more for games as my 3ds games are now Wii U priced. I don't want this hybrid system, how is it going to make the market want it?
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: ThePerm on September 10, 2013, 05:28:46 PM
At the moment Nintendo supports 2 systems. If they only supported one then their output would not be divided between systems and we would probably have better overall games. If you think about it there are always 2 versions of each game coming out. They can always decide if they want the game to be more mobile designed or more home designed, but it wouldnt matter because you wouldn't have to buy 2 systems.
if you think about Vita. There is no reason it shouldn't be successful. This is one of the rare cases where something isn't successful because its not made by Nintendo. Hardware wise in about 4 years we could have something better than vita with 2 screens.
of course upon lookup for pictures of vita i found this news article
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Oblivion on September 10, 2013, 05:36:13 PM
It isn't successful because of the supposed "lack of games" not because it isn't Nintendo. When the 3DS launched and it didn't have games, the Vita was looking to be the winner.
The Vita is superior in hardware and build quality. I just wish it would get a few more games. I already have a crap ton of PS+ and indie games that can be played on both my Vita and PS3, I just need a few more to round it off.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: NWR_insanolord on September 10, 2013, 06:07:10 PM
Nintendo consolidating their console and handheld lines is something that gets talked about all the time, often with the assumption that it's an inevitability. The problem, though, is that it would result in Nintendo making less money and it wouldn't solve their biggest problem, the one that this thread is named after.
As bad off as the Wii U is right now, I guarantee you that it will be at least decently profitable over the course of its life, and in the meantime the 3DS is bringing in money hand over fist. Nintendo makes more money if they sell you two game systems than if they sell you one.
In addition to that, I don't see how this would help them in regard to third party support. Being a handheld might help with Japanese publishers, but as far as Western publishers go the 3DS is in even worse shape than the Wii U. You could argue for market share helping them, but the DS and Wii were far and away the biggest market shares last generation and had mediocre to awful support from Western publishers.
If it is possible for Nintendo to right the ship in regard to third parties, it can almost certainly be done with separate product lines. Nintendo will continue selling (at least) two different game systems until it becomes unprofitable for them, which I can't see happening anytime soon.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Mop it up on September 10, 2013, 06:20:38 PM
As bad off as the Wii U is right now, I guarantee you that it will be at least decently profitable over the course of its life, and in the meantime the 3DS is bringing in money hand over fist. Nintendo makes more money if they sell you two game systems than if they sell you one.
But they also make more money if they sell more copies of games, which they would if they released everything on one system instead of two. It is a tradeoff though and Nintendo would need to take careful consideration before going that route, but I think, considering Nintendo make a lot more money on software than hardware, that selling more games would make up for selling less systems.
I agree it wouldn't help third-party support of course, but it wouldn't hurt either, so it'd still be ideal for Nintendo and consumers alike.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: NWR_insanolord on September 10, 2013, 06:35:40 PM
Not necessarily. They'd have fewer opportunities to milk their most lucrative franchises that way. If they stuck to the policy of one Mario Kart or New Super Mario Bros. per system they'd be missing out on potentially millions of sales. Unless they wanted to run their big name stuff into the ground even more, they'd have to spread out and make more obscure titles, which would be great for people like us because we'd likely get a new Star Fox and F-Zero, but would result in lower sales.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Agent-X- on September 10, 2013, 06:37:20 PM
LOL, what are you saying? They understood the mobile platform because it was already big before they even "understood" it. The only reason they are big in the handheld market isn't because they're good at it. It's because they've been the only kid on the block for over 20 years.
Were you replying to my claim that Nintendo understood the mobile platform before anyone else did? Let's clear up our terminology so there isn't miscommunication. I differentiate between mobile platforms (iOS, Android, Windows) and portable gaming platforms (3DS, PS Vita). When I said Nintendo understood mobile before anyone else did, I'm just saying that Nintendo was openly discussing a change in the industry that was coming. It didn't arrive for over two years, but they were proactive at addressing it. This isn't speculative. Some in the media were speculating that Apple was even toying with the idea of a game console offering, which seems just outrageous in hindsight. Look what arrived in 2007, though, and tell me that didn't become a viable portable gaming market.
Think about it. The DS was announced and released in 2004. There was a major marketing revolution within Nintendo at the time. Third Pillar? Blue Ocean strategy? Heavy focus on the general public? Sure, Nintendo wasn't faring well with the hardcore market, but they definitely dismissed the PSP in their conference and talked about external competition on the horizon.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Agent-X- on September 10, 2013, 06:39:18 PM
I get in theory why a hybrid console/handheld would be nice. All games one system, system easy to transport, possibly more games, cost of just one system. I just think when you look at the economics of it, it falls apart.
1. Would you get more games? Not if you own both systems today. Maybe if you own only 1, but it's certainly not 2x without a massive increase in staffing by Nintendo. From looking at development costs, it is 3-4 times cheaper to make a 3ds game. A hybrid game would have to be console 1080p level to compete in that arena. This means scratch 3-4 3ds games and add 1 hybrid game. In reality, it's worse than that because your game now has to sell 3-4 times more units to make a profit which means fewer games greenlighted. Remember Fire Emblem Wii U?
2. Excluding the Wii where everyone and their brother had one, typically the casual market was driven by the social gamer. And this determined the winner of the generation. You know the people who play Madden with their friends and buy every years edition at launch, the people who only play COD online, the people who bought an expensive tv and want the best hd system to show to their friends how awesome their tv is. These people bring 2 problems. 1 they want mainstream games that just aren't on Nintendo consoles now. Same problem, different system. 2 they want a very powerful system because they want to be awed with their friends by the graphics. In short, you need to beat your competition in tech/features. The PS4 is 400, probably cost 500 to make. Assuming you could shrink the tech for nothing you still cost more than your competitor, who subsidizes hardware, and you haven't given the console market any reason to pick you over them.
3. The handheld market. I'm 32, and love my 3ds. But lets get real here. The 3ds dominates the kid market which is a big reason why Nintendo prints money on the handheld side. That's why I don't think the 2ds is a big deal, because they already own that market. A coworker of mine has 4 daughters and they each have a Nintendo system. I thought this was strange at first, but he said when they travel in a car it is a cost effective way to keep them happy. Makes sense, when my kids are older they'll each have a Nintendo handheld unless they don't want one or Nintendo abandons the market. Thats what a hybrid would do. This market is really price sensitive. The Vita is powerful, but it can't do 1080p and it can't do what I want a console. The price of a hybrid is certainly too high to be viable alternative. And you that have kids know that you can't just buy one kid one. This is something that is an all or nothing proposition. Then there's 30 dollar games to 60 handheld games. At this point you're telling parents it's cheaper to just buy an ipad for each kid .
So in summary, I own both a Wii U and a 3ds and they do different things for me. I can't imagine a hybrid doing both things equally well. You're probably paying for both consoles as the cost to shrink Wii U power to 3ds size is probably at least the cost of a 3ds. I'll probably get fewer games than I do now as some of the awesome 3ds games take longer to make console games and others get whacked. I'll pay more for games as my 3ds games are now Wii U priced. I don't want this hybrid system, how is it going to make the market want it?
You've changed my mind on this topic. Consolidating their platforms would only work if they just abandoned the home console experience and tacked it on to their handheld in some fashion similar to Vita TV. It just doesn't seem like a strategy that will work especially when you consider what the majority of home console gamers want versus what really drives the handheld market. I can see that now as having been the biggest barrier to Sony's handhelds (too costly $$$) early on and just not being a viable competitor to families who rely on having these devices in multiples to satisfy their kids. I simply hadn't really thought about it that way because I was looking at the advancement of tablets as something of a concern because so many 20-somethings have latched onto these devices, and these are the mothers of tomorrow's gamers. It's not likely to be the case that parents will supply tablets for every kid, though, and tablets aren't particularly durable or reliable for more than a couple of years. I can now why Nintendo will continue to hold the handheld market.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Mop it up on September 10, 2013, 06:52:17 PM
They'd have fewer opportunities to milk their most lucrative franchises that way. If they stuck to the policy of one Mario Kart or New Super Mario Bros. per system they'd be missing out on potentially millions of sales.
Or it could work the opposite way and those games would sell double the numbers they do now.
I can see it going either way but I think it'd be worth a try.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Stogi on September 10, 2013, 07:03:45 PM
I'm with Mop it up. A consolidated market means more exposure. Plus Nintendo, if they didn't run their franchises into the ground, would venture as you mentioned. They would venture and possibly find a foothold in a new iconic franchise. Nintendo's R&D shouldn't be limited to hardware after all.
They could also go the route of selling both a console and handheld that play the same games similar to the PS3 and Vita except with 100% parity. That way even if third parties aren't focused on the console market, consumers still have access to their games.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Ian Sane on September 10, 2013, 07:25:05 PM
I see the console/handheld as a inevitable for dedicated videogame systems PERIOD. Console games are already ridiculously expensive to create and there is a limit on how far you can push videogame hardware before it is no longer practical to make use of the improving tech. For example visually you could never exceed photo realism so there's an obvious cap there but really the cap is even sooner because the manpower involved in creating such a game is too great to be affordable. The only way to exceed that cap is if there is a way to cut down on manpower.
We'll hit that cap and we'll hit it soon and then a console will have potentially decades of lifespan before some technological breakthrough improves the manpower needed. During this time the hardware will become cheap enough to make portable so why not just make the handhelds use the same hardware and run the same games? We're practically there NOW. Dragon's Crown is on the PS3 and PS Vita and it seems completely arbitrary that if I want to play the game both at home and on the go I need to buy two versions.
This IS going to happen and someone is going to lead the way and it's up to Nintendo if they're the first. I don't have any optimism about the Wii U. I figure it will fail, not coast for five years while Nintendo props it up with the 3DS, but outright fail. Nintendo is incapable of providing it with software in a timely manner. So how does going to a handheld/console hybrid help third party support? I think it's more just how Nintendo survives. Being handheld-only seems like a real possibility for them and they might as well lead the way on the hybrid approach. I think once the hybrid model takes off dedicated systems that are only one or the other will fall by the wayside.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Spak-Spang on September 10, 2013, 11:35:32 PM
It is a give and take. And Nintendo would have to analysis its situation carefully.
The problem isn't as simple as we are more successful in the handheld so lets combine the handheld and console into one and make a system that is more profitable.
The thing is looking at restructuring everything about Nintendo. Putting teams to make bigger games and smaller games for a single system. Not cannibalizing its sales of hardware and games by having two systems. If I buy New Super Mario Wii U...I might not buy the 3DS version...because it is too much Mario.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on September 11, 2013, 12:02:41 AM
At the moment Nintendo supports 2 systems. If they only supported one then their output would not be divided between systems and we would probably have better overall games. If you think about it there are always 2 versions of each game coming out. They can always decide if they want the game to be more mobile designed or more home designed, but it wouldnt matter because you wouldn't have to buy 2 systems.
All the big companies support every platform available. A team puts a game together and if the team isn't given enough resources or personnel then the game will suffer. But make no mistake, software is highly profitable for Nintendo and they could have increased their studios at any point in the last 15 years when people have been harping on them on output. They choose to develop highly profitable games and tend to skip releasing filler or unknown titles. They do this partially because they are a child of the console demise of the 80's and they believe that "too many" releases were part of the reason of the collapse.
I also think the premium of console in a handheld will result in you buying 2 consoles price wise. By focusing on a handheld title versus a home designed game you are segregated your market into the two groups that you were trying to consolidate.
Ian, I don't know if we are going that direction. Maybe, but I don't think we are close. The Vita is simply not powerful enough to be a home console despite being a powerful handheld and that costs $250 which I think is above where a successful handheld can be. I just read an article that CPU speeds will not be able to keep with Moore's law anymore because the cost to keep shrinking processors will far outweigh the gains. Notwithstanding powerful GPUs have never been very small and would be an extreme limiting factor in powering a handheld. Again, I don't know where the future goes, but I think a handheld will at least for the next 10 years disappoint if it's trying to replace one of the monstrous PS4/Xbox ONE boxes.
I love Nintendo's approach to handheld. While there is a Mario Kart for Wii/3DS they are completely different and I think both versions justify existence. Other than older home console 3DS ports, I can't really think of a Nintendo game which is the essentially the same thing as the home console edition making the version redundant if you own both consoles. SSB might be which is upcoming for both versions but all the Mario's have been very different.
There will never be a console that lasts decades. It doesn't fit the product life cycle. Growth-Maturity-Decline. Nobody would support a system in it's decline. There's no money to be made on a product that they sell few systems of, and consumer interest generally drops after 3,000 shooters have been released for a system making it hard for even good games to sell much. They will always find some reason to release a new console. 4K tv support is upcoming for sure. 3D may become standard if they can convince masses it's worth it (3D tech to play multiplayer fullscreen on the same TV?). Integration with future TV features will be key. Maybe integration with tablets or other devices. Who knows, but consoles still have benefit from becoming stronger (even if it's marginal) and you're not going to be able to make a handheld PS4 in 5 years at a reasonable price. That doesn't mean that people won't try but consoles are already under attack with all the android boxes and that doesn't seem to hurt them yet.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Spak-Spang on September 11, 2013, 12:30:00 AM
Sorry, I am at work and didn't get to finish my post.
As I was going to continue everything is give and take...and a company can only do so much with their resources. Nintendo themselves have been talking about the need for smaller developed budget titles along with the big AAA titles. However, I believe any company trying to support 2 systems struggles to truly support both properly. Sony is suffering to support the PSP Vita properly, even with the recent push for PSP Vita TV. The Vita hasn't gotten the love the PS3 received from Sony.
I think there is something said for consolidating by either having two devices that have the same operating systems and ask developers to program one game for both units...have two clearly defined specs for both. Or better yet, just have one system that is both portable and a console with one single set of specs. Sure there will be compromises with design and power.
But I think Nintendo could work out a balance...and the benefit gained by software support for just one system is huge. Let's break it down. How many games does Nintendo release for 3DS a year? 4-6 games? How about Wii U? 4-6 games? This is Nintendo's current output. We can't just say Nintendo could buy or create more studios and release more games...because resources are limited. Time, money, man-power are all costly resources, and Nintendo can't just throw more money out there. Now, what if all those resources went to one single console. Potentially Nintendo could release 12 games a year at current resource levels.
How could Nintendo use those 12 games releases a year? They can't release 12 huge Mario, Zelda, or Pokemon level games a year. But realistically they could shoot for 4-5 of the games to be the big epic games...with the other games being smaller budget titles to fill in the different genres, to give development teams abilities to create pet projects, artistic projects, innovative or risky projects.
From a hardware point of view, Nintendo potentially has the ability to sell MORE systems not less. If Nintendo went for a single system that was a portable and console...families would still potentially buy two systems for their kids on the go. They could potentially buy one for each TV...knowing that their kids or themselves could take it on a car trip. Families would be supportive of buying games for a single system and use it on the go or at home. It provides additional value.
Finally, it can create unity in infrastructure. Virtual Console works for both console and handheld...and are not separated.
I can only see benefit from this model for Nintendo's future and it would definitely differentiate itself from the competitors...but will it bring 3rd party support to Nintendo?
My question is simple...is 3DS 3rd party support lacking? Did the DS have a lack of 3rd party support? NO. Because as of now, Nintendo's portable devices are still profitable for the developers to support. This would not change with a change in infrastructure...and it could mean, 3rd parties just use their teams that develop portable games anyway, to focus on Nintendo.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Oblivion on September 11, 2013, 12:37:19 AM
What's a PSP Vita?
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on September 11, 2013, 06:44:31 AM
I think there is something said for consolidating by either having two devices that have the same operating systems and ask developers to program one game for both units...have two clearly defined specs for both. Or better yet, just have one system that is both portable and a console with one single set of specs. Sure there will be compromises with design and power.
But... people hate compromise. Plenty of people that have smart phones, but there is still large demands for tablets that do essentially the same thing as a smart phone. Why? Because people hate small screens for touch screen apps. The details always matter and one perceived inequity is generally enough to make a market hate a product. If people could reasonable fit a 10" cell phone in their pockets tablets would be gone. Who knows with OLED technology where the screen can fold, maybe we'll make it there and tablets will go extinct. Devices that do alot things but nothing really well tend to fail in the market. Remember the cell phone/handheld game console? Good idea in theory, despite a few attempts has never amounted to much. I'm actually having a hard time thinking of something that attempted to do a lot, wasn't really great at anything, yet became even a moderate success.
The least powerful home HD console is the 360. If you can't have at least that much power in a handheld it's not worth even trying a console/handheld hybrid. That's going to cost a bunch probably $600+ to make a handheld that powerful. If you cost that much you'll lose the handheld market. Heck, if you cost half that you'll lose the handheld market. Even then I don't see the home console market getting that excited over 10 year old tech and finding a reason to purchase the console especially with cheaper; more powerful alternatives available.
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But I think Nintendo could work out a balance...and the benefit gained by software support for just one system is huge. Let's break it down. How many games does Nintendo release for 3DS a year? 4-6 games? How about Wii U? 4-6 games? This is Nintendo's current output. We can't just say Nintendo could buy or create more studios and release more games...because resources are limited. Time, money, man-power are all costly resources, and Nintendo can't just throw more money out there. Now, what if all those resources went to one single console. Potentially Nintendo could release 12 games a year at current resource levels.
Maybe you are only interested in 4-6 Nintendo games a year, but I think through 1st/2nd parties you drastically underestimate how many games Nintendo comes out with. This has been a tough year for the Wii U with Nintendo admitting they under-estimated HD development and delaying many games. But they've still come out with Pikmin 3, NSLU, Game and Wario, DKC, Mario Land, Zelda WW, Wii Fit U, Yoshi Yarn, and Wii U party and that excludes games they've worked directly with third parties such SMT x FE, Mario and Sonic, Sonic Lost World, Bayonetta 2, etc. I've missed some I'm sure but Nintendo has been the biggest software company in recent years and is usually at the top with EA/Activision with largest developer market share. They release alot of games, people are generally hard on them because they miss some big third party games and want Nintendo to release even more games to make those losses seem insignificant.
Also, I never said you can snap your fingers and get a game created. Nintendo has never been cash strapped and based on some of the indie games I've played recently, there are alot of talented developers out there that Nintendo could acquire. Yes, it takes time and investment, but Nintendo has the management know how and the available resources to grow. The only explanation for why they haven't is they don't see that growing and developing more software is a financially viable and they choose not to expand.
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How could Nintendo use those 12 games releases a year? They can't release 12 huge Mario, Zelda, or Pokemon level games a year. But realistically they could shoot for 4-5 of the games to be the big epic games...with the other games being smaller budget titles to fill in the different genres, to give development teams abilities to create pet projects, artistic projects, innovative or risky projects.
Nintendo follows the Apple model. They release highly profitable games and don't care too much for games that break even or make a small profit. They occasionally throw a smaller project a bone(mainly because they think it could be a success), but their intent is never to get in a habit of releasing indie type games for the market so the market can have more games. And even well liked games such as Eternal Darkness will never get sequels because they simply don't sell enough copies.
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From a hardware point of view, Nintendo potentially has the ability to sell MORE systems not less. If Nintendo went for a single system that was a portable and console...families would still potentially buy two systems for their kids on the go. They could potentially buy one for each TV...knowing that their kids or themselves could take it on a car trip. Families would be supportive of buying games for a single system and use it on the go or at home. It provides additional value.
The 3DS is a fantastic system at a good value for families now. I don't see how you reach any more people than the 3DS is reaching now except for releasing more games and eventually lowering the price. Depending on the cost of this hybrid you will definitely not reach the full 3DS market. Some people I'm sure have multiple PS3s but expecting to buy a several hundred dollar system for each kid seems to be a stretch to me.
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Finally, it can create unity in infrastructure. Virtual Console works for both console and handheld...and are not separated.
Sony does this now, Nintendo doesn't need a single system to do this. I think too often we put the cart before the horse thinking Nintendo needs to consolidate to do certain things and they don't. This could be done now, but won't because Nintendo knows they can sell the same game twice to somebody who really likes it and that is the model they are going with.
Just like the comment of Nintendo restructuring and working with smaller teams on projects. Great, why can't they do this now? There was a good discussion on here one time about something just being wrong with companies that need games to sell millions of units to recover their investment and needed to re-org. Nintendo suffers from this too. The whole FE needs to sell 750,000 units topic was depressing. Nintendo should be able to come to the market with good games that don't need to sell that much to make money. But that re-org doesn't need to coincide with a hybrid model it can happen now (but probably won't).
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My question is simple...is 3DS 3rd party support lacking? Did the DS have a lack of 3rd party support? NO. Because as of now, Nintendo's portable devices are still profitable for the developers to support. This would not change with a change in infrastructure...and it could mean, 3rd parties just use their teams that develop portable games anyway, to focus on Nintendo.
Yes and no. Clearly the 3DS does not have the 3rd party support of say a PS3/Xbox 360. 3rd parties still prefer to support tablets over the 3DS. 3DS 3rd party support is > Vita 3rd party support but saying it is great is a stretch. 3rd parties could support the Wii U now but they don't. Not sure why a unified platform will solve anything on this front.
I just don't see how a unified platform benefits Nintendo financially. I think people that prefer console gaming over handheld gaming see this as the solution to fix Nintendo's home console problem. But Nintendo doesn't have a problem at all on the handheld front. And they potentially destroy that market by making a high powered handheld that costs more than the Vita. I don't know why they'd take that risk. As a gamer that buys most consoles, I don't know what releasing another under-powered home console would accomplish in that market and that would have to be the compromise they make. So I guess I still don't get it. Yes, if processing power continues to increase it may be inevitable, but we are along way from even 360 power in a handheld. Killing off the handheld cash cow that Nintendo has could actually lead to the demise of Nintendo I think. That's a big bet to take that a hybrid could be as financially successful.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Agent-X- on September 11, 2013, 01:09:38 PM
I was getting behind the idea of unifying the platforms, but smallsharkbigbite has given ample reasoning as to why this would likely ruin Nintendo. I believe the argument is settled. Price and compromised experience are the two factors likely to prevent this type of thing over the next 10 years.
I've written and erased several paragraphs to basically arrive at this conclusion. The only way to solve the 3rd party problem is for the industry to collapse. Nintendo would survive it. Sony and MS would bail out. It would likely take a full successful generation for either to return.
I don't present this as a desired scenario but as an honest reflection on the situation. Nintendo is not in the business of providing the experience that enthusiast/social gamers are looking for. Nintendo makes toys. Nintendo is not going to create the game experiences that these consumers are looking for, and since these consumers exist on the other platforms there is little reason for these experiences to come to Nintendo's platform.
The answer for now is for the system to sell. Sell, and we'll see more third party games, but it will never match the experiences available on the other systems. It's pretty cut and dry.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Spak-Spang on September 12, 2013, 02:47:06 AM
Most of us that are thinking about the future of a joint system...realize the limitations and the trade offs...which is why we don't see this happening next year. Probably not next console generation...but it could happen in 5-10 years.
Look at the level of graphics being achieved NOW by the Vita and tablets of the world. Yes, those machines are not cheap...but they could be a heck of a lot cheaper in 5-6 years. In 10 years we could definitely create games at standards that gamers will expect and developers can afford for a portable/console hybrid...and it wouldn't have to break the back to buy.
Honestly, Nintendo would just need to keep in it in the $249.99 price point. Since it is also doubling as a console system. Then Nintendo could have a package that is 199.99 without the TV hookups if gamers desired. A later purchase could include such features.
I like the idea of a charging pad, console docking system that houses the components to hookup to the TV, have additional USB ports for hard drives, and even 4 ports to charge 4 controllers.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Agent-X- on September 12, 2013, 07:40:23 PM
I predict that in a decade from now, home gaming graphics will have escaped the limitations of screens. It could be the Oculus Rift or something that completely turns gaming on its head.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Spak-Spang on September 13, 2013, 12:37:05 AM
I predict that in a decade from now, home gaming graphics will have escaped the limitations of screens. It could be the Oculus Rift or something that completely turns gaming on its head.
Perhaps. Though, I notice my own tastes keep on drifting towards the classics with every advancement we make in gaming. Give me old arcade games and SNES any day over what is being released today on most systems.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Ceric on September 13, 2013, 03:24:20 PM
10 Years from now Industry will be hard pressed trying to find the next big thing. We have pretty much caught up to most Pre-90's Sci Fi in the device area. Next big thing is going to be true halography and that debatable unless its interactive porn
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Mop it up on September 13, 2013, 05:19:18 PM
In the future, Call of Duty will be played out by real people, commoners forced to battle for the amusement of the rich.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Ian Sane on September 13, 2013, 07:53:07 PM
Ten years from now I fear that casual free-to-play cellphone games will be so popular that no one feels they can make money with videogames in any other model and that dedicated videogame systems will be extinct. I think there will always be an audience for such a thing but it ultimately depends on someone feeling that that market is worth releasing hardware for. That's my worst-case-scenario but I'm quite worried about that possibility.
Every company wants big mainstream hits and are afraid to take risks so I don't see anything truly groundbreaking in the next ten years unless it comes from someone outside the current big publishers. Who's going to pay for Oculus Rif when they're scared to make anything that isn't a first person shooter? And while Nintendo introduced motion control they would only introduce something groundbreaking if it was cheap.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: NWR_insanolord on September 13, 2013, 08:32:46 PM
You really should check out some of the indie scene. I won't argue with your analysis that the major players are very risk-averse, but smaller developers are putting out all kinds of great and creative new things.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Stogi on September 13, 2013, 08:52:29 PM
You guys ever buy one of those little arcade sticks that includes like 20 some games and plugs into your TV directly?
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: MegaByte on September 14, 2013, 03:22:05 AM
You really should check out some of the indie scene. I won't argue with your analysis that the major players are very risk-averse, but smaller developers are putting out all kinds of great and creative new things.
Yeah, at this point, there's very little coming out that I care about from the big publishers outside of Nintendo. But there's an incredible amount of stuff coming from the indie devs.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: the asylum on September 15, 2013, 03:59:08 PM
Something else I've been thinking on, Nintendo needs to become re-standardized if they want to attract third parties again. By that I mean, things like 4-player support with the gamepad. Nobody wants to go buy several different controllers that only work for a handful of games. This should have been present on day one.
Also something they need to do is make a real serious effort to show that they're serious about the core audience. EAD is responsible for the bulk of Nintendo's AAA titles. There is NO reason why they should be working on things like Wii Fit. Wii Fit is something that should be saved for outsourced bottom-stringers. You could train a team of monkeys to make Wii Fit. Who knows? Maybe if EAD wasn't saddled with casual bullshit, they would have had the where-with-all to discover the true price of HD development alongside the rest of the industry- you know, back in 2006. Imagine how many Wii U's they could have sold if Pikmin 3 was a launch title.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Adrock on September 15, 2013, 06:30:17 PM
There is NO reason why they should be working on things like Wii Fit. Wii Fit is something that should be saved for outsourced bottom-stringers. You could train a team of monkeys to make Wii Fit. Who knows? Maybe if EAD wasn't saddled with casual bullshit, they would have had the where-with-all to discover the true price of HD development alongside the rest of the industry- you know, back in 2006. Imagine how many Wii U's they could have sold if Pikmin 3 was a launch title.
Wii Fit and other casual games are already made by much smaller teams with much smaller budgets than Nintendo's core titles. I'd even argue that the reason their casual titles performed so well is because they weren't just cobbled together by a bunch of interns on their spare time. The concept of such titles may have sold initially, but the quality is what made them hits, what kept people coming back. I understand that a lot of people don't like casual games; they're nothing more than a distraction for me every now and then (I had the opportunity to buy Wii Sports Resort today, but didn't because I couldn't justify spending $20 on it). However, I really doubt that their development is in any way deterring Nintendo from releasing more core titles since, as already stated, casual titles are developed by much smaller times to begin with. Nintendo's problems go far beyond that.
As for Pikmin 3 at launch, I think Wii U would have sold around the same amount. The problem wasn't launch. The problem was the gaping hole in the release schedule after launch. Even if you put Pikim 3 in the middle of the gaping hole instead of at the end of it in August, you're left with two smaller holes filled with only Pikmin 3. While it's a nice game to have, it's hardly a system seller.
Title: Re: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...
Post by: Ian Sane on September 16, 2013, 03:18:44 PM
You really should check out some of the indie scene. I won't argue with your analysis that the major players are very risk-averse, but smaller developers are putting out all kinds of great and creative new things.
I see two problems with relying on indies to "save" gaming:
1. Indie devs are limited by budget so there is only so much they can do, particularly with 3D games that are much more expensive to make than 2D ones.
2. The kids today are tomorrow's devs and will be influenced by the games they play. Indie games lack exposure so the kids are more likely going to be playing the more mainstream titles and being influenced by them for good or bad. It's for the good of videogames as an artform that the most popular games are also the best. Hell a big reason why the indie scene is making good stuff is because they were influenced by the days when Nintendo was the market leader in consoles and you could say the best games were also the most popular.
