Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: TrueNerd on November 21, 2012, 02:45:13 AM
Title: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: TrueNerd on November 21, 2012, 02:45:13 AM
So I have taken Jonny's advice and started playing Majora's Mask. There's no official thread for it yet, so I started this cuz I'm selfish and I want to talk about it.
I have never played much of this game. This and Zelda II are the only Zelda games I haven't completed. Well, and the CD-i games but those don't count. In fact, I got through the first temple for the very first time a year and a half ago. Before that, I had only ever screwed around in Clock Town and dealt with the monkeys. And I had done that stuff probably a half dozen times.
Obviously, I had problems getting into this game. Nintendo intentionally makes this game initially off putting, or at least lets you know this is not a typical Zelda game. Right from the start, they take away your horse AND transform you into a deku scrub, a state in which you remain for the first hour of the game. It's a ballsy move. But really, the three day structure is what kept me from jumping in right away. I didn't understand how it worked or what saved and what reset when you go back to the first day, it was just confusing.
So here's my big protip for anyone playing this game for the first time: Play the inverted song of time as soon as you possibly can. This slows down time by half which takes a lot of pressure off and lets you figure things out. It also lets you kind of forget about the time thing and play the game like you would any Zelda game, if you want to. Can't recommend this enough.
So I'm starting this game from where I left off a year and a half ago, right after the first temple. I'm also playing this off the Zelda Collections GameCube disc cuz when I started this current play through I didn't have the Virtual Console version. I did snag it when Club Nintendo offered it for free, but I can't transfer my GameCube save to that version and I don't want to play that opening bit for what would probably be the eighth time. So I'm gonna rough it. So far the only bug I've encountered is an occasionally choppy frame rate and some weird audio tics. Hopefully that's as bad as it gets.
I have not yet gotten into the Bomber's Notebook stuff. I'm kind of not sure how or when I should or where to start? I know I want to so I can get all the masks so I can become Fierce Deity Link cuz that sounds awesome. That'll happen sometime.
I will say I love how involved the areas before the temples are. You do A LOT of stuff before getting to that first temple. I'm once again doing A LOT of stuff before getting to the second temple. Some people may not like that, but I think it's great. Also, I just got the Goron mask which lets you roll around and is unlike anything I've ever done in a Zelda game. Also kind of reminded me of Kameo, but, you know, good.
Some more overall thoughts on the game, Clock Town is great and dense, the moon is great and iconic for a reason, the art direction of the game overall is fantastic and better than OoT and also looks GREAT in progressive scan on a HDTV. I also really love the cutscenes of both this game and OoT. The shot selection used is so simple and classical. It's timeless stuff.
I'm excited to finally play this game the whole way through. Hopefully this thread just gets moved to become the official Retroactive thread, but I suppose it's quite possible it won't and I just wasted a lot of time writing out my thoughts on the topic. Jump in and join me with the time wasting!
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Spak-Spang on November 21, 2012, 07:27:44 AM
I think this Zelda game is easily the most polarizing of the modern Zelda games. I feel Zelda fans either love it or hate it.
I was never a big fan of this game. I hated many aspects of it. The Link transformations were scary to me, and the game felt needlessly dark with a gloom that was more intense than any Zelda game before it. It really made me feel the tension, which I know many gamers loved, but I couldn't get into it.
It seems most of the Zelda conventions were broken in this game, and that lead to many people raving about the games style, unique structure and everything...but I found it kinda boring and I felt like I was playing the game...because I had to play and finish a Zelda game.
Now, there was some fun elements in the game. Some of the boss battles were crazy fun and epic...and rolling around and swimming in your alternate forms was a blast. But, as a whole it is not my favorite Zelda game...not a bad game...in fact it is a great game, but not my favorite Zelda game.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: MrPhishfood on November 21, 2012, 07:39:17 AM
Its harder to get in to from your own expectations of what a Zelda game should be, but given the chance it really shines. As a young teenager that moon was very very creepy.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: lolmonade on November 21, 2012, 09:09:37 AM
I want to like this game so badly. By all accounts, I should, given that it's based on Zelda 64's engine and from what I heard the story seems like an interesting deviation from the typical story.
I just haven't been able to get past the initial clock town sequence. I get stuck, and my attention span goes awry.
I'm going to try this game one last time for the sake of this retroactive, because I want to like it, and having some people to play and discuss it with I hope will keep me motivated to play it.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: MagicCow64 on November 21, 2012, 09:24:06 AM
I think this is easily the most emotionally affecting Zelda game. There were a few side stories I almost cried during, it gets so weird and poignant at points.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: TJ Spyke on November 21, 2012, 10:15:46 AM
The whole time aspect of the game ruins it for me, and one of the reasons it is the worst 3D Zelda game IMO, and one of the worst Zelda games period. I have tried playing it on the N64 and on the GCN bonus disc.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on November 21, 2012, 01:00:10 PM
Majora's Mask is awesome. That is all.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Ian Sane on November 21, 2012, 01:44:33 PM
You know how these days Nintendo wants to be all inclusive with stuff like the Super Guide? Yeah, this game is the exact opposite of that. The whole three day mechanic makes no real attempt to be accomodating. This is a hardcore game with a concept only some people will enjoy. It strives to be a great game on its own terms and does not give a **** if you don't like it. I love it.
One thing that's cool is that it is tries to do a lot of unique ideas while still feeling like Zelda. OoT, WW and TP are all great games but you really only need to play one of them to get the general gameplay experience of all three (and OoT deserves more credit for doing it first). Not so with MM. Nope, nothing plays quite like it. You can't say you've experienced its general gameplay unless you have specifically played it. In a perfect world every Nintendo sequel would be like this where it builds on the same general gameplay but does a unique enough twist to make it essential. This could have just been OoT w/ Masks but it isn't.
I really like how there are only four dungeons. For some people that would be a big flaw but in Zelda games I actually prefer the non-dungeon parts. A dungeon heavy Zelda feels too much like sequential levels. Zelda presents a world that I want to experience and MM requires that from you throughout the whole game. A lot of Zelda games fall into dungeon-dungeon-dungeon towards the end of the game. Plus MM has lots of dungeonesque areas. I find the series has become so formal with its conventions. Why should dungeons be so explicitly defined as such? MM realistically has twice the "dungeons" it appears to have in terms of content, it just doesn't organize them so rigidly.
The one flaw in this game is that having a time limit for dungeons SUCKS. This added way more stress to the process than I would have liked and a few times I went to Gamefaqs because it just didn't make sense to spin my wheels on a puzzle and risk having to do it all over again. If there was some sort of magical time stop whenever you were in a dungeon that would have been great. The three day thing works really well for the overworld but adds nothing but an annoying time limit to the dungeons.
Since this was Aonuma's first Zelda game and it is undoubtably the least accessible and user friendly Zelda game made under his watch I can only assume that Miyamoto did not care for it and insisted that later Zeldas be more conventional. Unsurprisingly this is Aonuma's best Zelda by a longshot. Despite its odd design it is a less controversial title than the others. People either love or hate it. But the later Zeldas get an even worse criticism: that of being merely okay. Being a bland Zelda is much worse than a ballsy one that some people don't care for but is regarded as a masterpiece by those that do.
I think the Groundhog Day repeated time cycle idea would work really well if it was revisited in another Nintendo game that didn't have to meet the conventions or expectations of the Zelda franchise. Realistically Nintendo could easily get a new franchise out of such an idea.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: ThePerm on November 21, 2012, 01:55:38 PM
I want to like this game so badly. By all accounts, I should, given that it's based on Zelda 64's engine and from what I heard the story seems like an interesting deviation from the typical story.
I just haven't been able to get past the initial clock town sequence. I get stuck, and my attention span goes awry.
I'm going to try this game one last time for the sake of this retroactive, because I want to like it, and having some people to play and discuss it with I hope will keep me motivated to play it.
theres a point in the game you get to after a few cycles where you get the song of time, and you can slow down the time pace, and at any time travel back to the first day. So. once you get this, you just have to remember to do this and you'll be fine.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: EasyCure on November 21, 2012, 08:20:44 PM
First of all I'm mad your username is TrueNerd and you've never completed Majoras Mask.
With that said, stick with it and for better or worse, you'll walk away experiencing a VERY unique adventure. Ian is right, there really isn't anything else out there like it. Personally I couldn't get in to the game the first time around. On my N64 I gave up in the last dungeon and hadn't returned until years later when they made that GCN compilation. By then enough time had passed that I was able to appreciate MM for it's unique take on Zelda and as more time passes, the more I appreciate how different it is to other games in the series.
MM has a way of really connecting you to the game world, it's the first time you really feel the world is in a state of peril and you're the only one that can do anything about it. I didn't really get that vibe from OoT for example, at least not outside the ruined Hyrule Castle Courtyard. In WW it feels like no one knows there is a great evil present so what exactly are you going on this enormous quest for? It starts off with rescuing your sister and then you just happen to fight off Ganon. It was an odd disconnecting moment in the game. Even SS, while I loved it, didn't really have that perilous feel that MM has because the inhabitants of Skyloft are basically clueless as to what's going on below them. Looking back, MM really really is an INCREDIBLY dark game. In fact, besides Zelda II [spoilers]its the only game that gives you an indication of what happens when you fail and this time around it's a pretty visual one too, seeing that moon crash down.. tragic[/spoiler].
Honestly, sometimes I wish TP was more of a MM clone than an OoT. The art direction of that game suited a darker theme.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: TrueNerd on November 21, 2012, 08:47:31 PM
@ Ian
How do you feel about the non-dungeon areas of Skyward Sword? Cuz I loved some of those. Notably both times in the Lanayru Desert.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on November 22, 2012, 08:11:52 AM
From my previous, shorter post, my opinion of this game is probably pretty clear, but just thought I'd include a review I wrote for Majora's Mask back in March of 2011. Bare in mind this review was written pre-Skyward Sword. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Past, Present & Future - Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask
'Our heirs, whatever or whoever they may be, will explore space and time to degrees we cannot currently fathom. They will create new melodies in the music of time. There are infinite harmonies to be explored.'
With Skyward Sword on the way, I've recently been recounting my experiences with the Zelda series over the years. Looking back, many of these classic titles still shine today, but none so much as the magnificent Majora's Mask. I believe that the primary reason that I hold this game in such high esteem is because it dared to do something different with the Zelda formulae. I suppose The Legend of Zelda for the NES must be considered the most original, as it effectively established an entirely new genre, but I feel Majora's Mask deserves a lot of credit for bucking what was an already established trend.
The first thing that really stands out about Majora's Mask is it's story, which is quite dark in tone. Taking place soon after the events of Ocarina of Time, Link has travelled beyond the realm of Hyrule in search of Navi, his adored fairy companion. Bestriding the faithful Epona and seemingly lost in a distant land, Link's next journey begins in the misty woods of Termina. The world of Termina, however, is not as peaceful as the idyllic opening would have you believe. For looming far above Link's head is the chiselled grimace of an ominous moon which grows larger by the day. Indeed, Termina's future is not threatened by an evil Gerudo in search of the Golden Land, but instead by the moon, which is on a collision course with Termina. Among the dense forest Link soon falls victim to the masked thief known as Skull Kid, who steals both Epona and his magical Ocarina. Not only that, but Link is cursed by the mysterious Mask wearer to take the form of a Deku Scrub of all creatures. As Link gives chase to try and undo his curse and get back his Ocarina, Link comes upon the denizens of Clock Town and is told of the legend of Majora's Mask, an ancient and destructive Mask which has manipulated the mischievous Skull Kid into causing the Moon to tumble out of orbit. With the Moon's impact imminent, Link finds Skull Kid atop Clock Tower and manages to avert disaster by gaining possession of the Ocarina just in time to play the Song of Time, which throws him 72 hours back in to the past. Link, now stuck in an interminable loop, is forced to relive the same 3 day period over and over until he finds a way to save Termina from its fate.
This set-up works so well because it allows players to become familiar with Termina's inhabitants and their daily lives in a way that was not possible in Link's previous adventures. As the you become increasingly familiar with the events in the 3 days preceding the impact, you will begin to recognise the patterns of peoples movements and actions. Eventually you will have observed enough to know exactly what the various inhabitants are doing and where they'll be located at any one time. As you try to help these people out in their daily lives, you will find yourself rushing between different groups and individuals à la Bill Murray in 'Groundhog Day', all in the hope that by changing the past you can alter the future. It has to be said that these recurring side quests require quite a lot of patience and many hours can be spent simply observing events and documenting them in the in-game notebook. For those who merely wanted more Ocarina of Time, this was perhaps a disappointment, but for anyone looking for an original and engaging Zelda adventure it doesn't get any better than Majora's Mask.
That's not to say that the game has no relation to it's fore-bearer. Inter-spliced with these time-travelling portions are those sections more familiar to Zelda fans, namely the dungeons. Even here, however, Majora's Mask manages to feel fresh. Throughout the game Link will collect various masks which imbue him with certain powers and characteristics. The vast majority of these masks are completely optional and are not required to beat the game, but they're worth getting if you want to see some of the cooler side quests. There are four masks in particular, however, which Link will need to obtain if he wishes to save the world of Termina. When worn, these masks transform Link into one of four forms, a Deku Scrub, a Goron, a Zora and, lastly, a powerful deity. It is in how these transformations play into the dungeon designs that Majora manages to feel different. As you can imagine, a small scrub-like critter controls completely differently from a colossal rock creature, who in turn plays nothing like a fast and acrobatic water-dweller, and the temples have been designed with these differences in mind. In one temple you might find yourself having to put on the Goron mask in order to move at high speed in your boulder form, in another you will have to use the Zora's ability to breathe under water. These are just some very basic examples, but in some of the later areas of the game you will have to juggle these transformations to complete puzzles and navigate the dungeons. Altogether, these transformations, coupled with the time travel mechanics and a great story put a really interesting twist on the traditional Zelda gameplay.
As I look forward to Skyward Sword, and pour over the video and screen shots, I can't help but have this hollow feeling that this game will only disappoint. Whereas with Twilight Princess I had a genuine sense of excitement and anticipation, what little I've seen of Skyward Sword has so far left me cold. Nintendo are going to have to do something extraordinary with Motion + if they're to make it the centrepiece of this next Zelda, and while part of me wants to give them the benefit of the doubt, the cynical part of me doubts that this alone will provide the degree of inventiveness and originality that was on offer with Majora's Mask.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Ian Sane on November 22, 2012, 02:15:16 PM
How do you feel about the non-dungeon areas of Skyward Sword? Cuz I loved some of those. Notably both times in the Lanayru Desert.
One thing I really like about MM is all the people and in SS most of the people are in Skyloft, which is kind of a bummer. However Skyloft is the closest thing to Clocktown we've had yet. It felt like a real community and I liked that.
The problem with SS is that there is too much blatant filler in going back to old areas and the guardian stuff which I just found to be a huge chore. Blurring the distinctions between dungeons is a good idea but SS didn't quite get it right. Hopefully it's just a rough draft for better things to come.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: EasyCure on November 22, 2012, 02:58:07 PM
I'm still waiting for more dungeons-esque areas that don't feel like dungeons (similar to what SS had) but in a more connected world. I've posted a long winded idea detailing what this means to me but I'll summarize try to summarize:
Remember those warps in OoT? Zora's domain connects to Lake Hylia, a spring in the Lost Woods connected to the outside of Zora's domain etc. Well I'd like to see a world that had more natural connections like this, I want Metroid type exploration. Throw Link in this huge world, have maybe 3 or 4 traditional style dungeons but go back to the original LoZ gameplay where a dungeon doesn't have to be completed in any specific order. Dungeons should have secret entrances so you can accidentally stumble upon one whether you're prepared for it or not. Don't rely on the old formula of only being able to access the boss' lair with the weapon you found in THAT dungeon. **** that, let me tackle that bitch with just my sword if I choose to, even if it means completing that dungeon WITHOUT it's special item/weapon. So what if I have to go back, I'll have a new item/weapon at my disposal that opens up new areas of the dungeon to explore, the boss could be optional at this point but if I choose to tackle it again, make it tougher this time around.
Also, new though, have the world affect itself. If you sequence break the mountain/volcano dungeon, it causes an eruption that sends molten rock flying towards the forest, burning up some areas, altering the terrain, maybe causing you to seek an alternate entrance to the forest dungeon, maybe it can cause alterations to how the dungeon itself plays, etc.
I really feel that not only would this give a more epic scope to the game world, which didn't feel very connected in SS but wouldn't be as static as MM (yay getting back on topic!) BUT it would also give the game much more replay value because there would be various ways to tackle the dungeon as well as explore the overworld. Better still, it would do away with the tired formula we've been playing since A Link to the Past. Yes I can still enjoy it because there are enough new experiences provided, but even the most die hard Zelda fan should be able to admit that only getting to proceed to X when you have Y gets old.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: ThePerm on November 22, 2012, 03:26:00 PM
I still need to play Skyward Sword.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Luigi Dude on November 22, 2012, 04:50:59 PM
The problem with SS is that there is too much blatant filler in going back to old areas and the guardian stuff which I just found to be a huge chore. Blurring the distinctions between dungeons is a good idea but SS didn't quite get it right. Hopefully it's just a rough draft for better things to come.
Well it kind of was since Skyward Sword was the first 3D Zelda made by Hidemaro Fujibayashi who directed the Oracle games and Minish Cap before that. Not only that but many of the lead designers were people who got promoted from lessor positions in previous Zelda games. You take a guy who's only made short 2D Zelda games and now have him make the largest 3D Zelda ever made and give him a more inexperienced team, it's no surprise it'll have certain things some find questionable.
This is why I find it funny when people keep saying Zelda needs a new team when Skyward Sword did just that. Now I found Skyward Sword to be my favorite Zelda so I'm pleased with their work but even people who aren't should at least wait until their second game before condemning them.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: ThePerm on November 23, 2012, 01:32:52 AM
I'm into creative problem solving, and also non linear problem solving. Most video games feel like there's a box and theres only one real way to solve a problem. I hope Zelda moves away from this direction.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Fatty The Hutt on December 13, 2012, 10:54:47 AM
Started this game last night and digging it so far.
Such an odd game "opening" (fairly extended at that). I am highjacked, I get turned into a Deku Scrub, I am told I need to get back to a creepy mask salesman within 3 days. I fart around for most of those "three days" (they go by quick!) but manage to get enough info to glean what I am probably supposed to do. I get to doing most of that stuff. The moon crashes into the earth (oops). Time resets (phew) and I redo all the stuff I am pretty sure I need to do, with lots of the three days to spare this time cuz there's less farting around. So I speed up time (by dancing with a scarecrow, of course; what else?) Then I get to the highjacker, I get my Ocarina back and then, only then, i CAN FINALLY SAVE THE GAME! Time to quit and go to bed since playing the "opening" took waaaaay longer than I expected.
But it sure was compelling. Can't wait to go back. I am supposed to head to the swamp area next, so sez the game. I imagine there may be side quests before I am allowed. I plan on visiting the scarecrow guy again to slow time and maybe do some other side quests or minigames that I discovered along my way through Clocktown.
I have no particular expectations for this game going in, other than, since its a "Zelda Game" it is bound to be of pretty high quality. So far, that is true. Excellent art design, map design, gameplay mechanics that are intuitive enough, fantastic music. And I have finally met the elusive and infamous Tingle. He's a hoot.
All in all, a good night of gaming. That Moon is deliciously creepy.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on December 13, 2012, 11:08:24 AM
I plan on visiting the scarecrow guy again to slow time and maybe do some other side quests or minigames that I discovered along my way through Clocktown.
I just thought I'd say that you don't need to visit the scarecrow again to slow down time, you simply need to play the song again.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Fatty The Hutt on December 13, 2012, 11:13:03 AM
I plan on visiting the scarecrow guy again to slow time and maybe do some other side quests or minigames that I discovered along my way through Clocktown.
I just thought I'd say that you don't need to visit the scarecrow again to slow down time, you simply need to play the song again.
I thought you had to set a song with him or something. Also, he said something about how to slow time but I don't exactly remember what it was :-[ So, he'll be worth a visit. (and please don't spoil it here, I'll just go ask the scarecrow guy)
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on December 13, 2012, 11:18:15 AM
I plan on visiting the scarecrow guy again to slow time and maybe do some other side quests or minigames that I discovered along my way through Clocktown.
I just thought I'd say that you don't need to visit the scarecrow again to slow down time, you simply need to play the song again.
I thought you had to set a song with him or something. Also, he said something about how to slow time but I don't exactly remember what it was :-[ So, he'll be worth a visit. (and please don't spoil it here, I'll just go ask the scarecrow guy)
I believe the song you create for him allows you to make the scarecrow pop up in vedgetable patches throughout the world. The song he tells you to play, however, is the 'Song Of Time' backwards, and it's that song which slows down time.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on December 14, 2012, 11:03:07 AM
Man! I forgot how terrible the Goron racing section is. So bad.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Ian Sane on December 14, 2012, 12:09:48 PM
What I hate about the Goron racing is that you have to have done it to get the upgraded sword. Or I think that's what it was. There was something that needed the race to have been won but it took a couple days to get ready so if you won the Goron race on day three, you were out of luck and would have to do it again on the first or second day to have enough time. Naturally I did the Goron race immediately after finishing the Goron temple for the first time, which took me into the third day. So I had to do that annoying bullshit AGAIN by finishing the temple on day one ASAP. ARRGH!! At least the temples let you skip right to the boss after you've beaten them. Doing them completely over again would have ruined the whole game.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on December 14, 2012, 12:54:09 PM
What I hate about the Goron racing is that you have to have done it to get the upgraded sword. Or I think that's what it was. There was something that needed the race to have been won but it took a couple days to get ready so if you won the Goron race on day three, you were out of luck and would have to do it again on the first or second day to have enough time. Naturally I did the Goron race immediately after finishing the Goron temple for the first time, which took me into the third day. So I had to do that annoying bullshit AGAIN by finishing the temple on day one ASAP. ARRGH!! At least the temples let you skip right to the boss after you've beaten them. Doing them completely over again would have ruined the whole game.
This is exactly what just happened to me, lol. I fell into this trap the last time I MM too. Luckily it only took me 15 minutes or so to play the song of time, beat the mechanical bull, blow up the entrance and win the race. When you know what you're doing you can blow through sections of that game pretty quickly, but there is definitely an element of trial and error.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: azeke on December 19, 2012, 01:35:51 AM
I probably have the most unusual connection to Zelda series here. First of all, just two years earlier i didn't even knew it existed (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=39910.msg767655#msg767655).
The first time i ever played Zelda game, it was funnily enough Majora's Mask on emulator, but i couldn't even get past first ten minutes or something. Nearly everything from controls ("how do i jump?", "what are those yellow arrows on the right?") to pacing were completely alien to me. I was so detached from usual Zelda conventions, it was like game tried to speak Chinese to me while hanging upside down.
Later when i got more into Nintendo, i played original NES game on my ambassador 3DS and i loved it. I loved the action, the challenge, simplicity and somewhat open-worldness of it. It's still one of my favorite games i played of the series.
It was a soft introduction to conventions that Nintendo preserves throughout the series so hard it harms accessibility of the games for people out of the loop (like me).
Zelda series (and Metroid probably even more so) are just so insulated in their own history. Eight dungeons, overworld, heart containers -- if i didn't started from NES game, i wouldn't have made sense of any of it. These are the basics are just so ingrained into later installments and make so much sense for long time fans, but are just baffling for newcomers.
It also doesn't help that unlike Mario series, Zelda and Metroid are kinda in a genre of their own. People coming from different background don't really have much reference to lean on in terms of similar games.
I have a friend (pc guy who just recently was introduced to wii, like me) who recently asked me "what's the deal with that Metroid Prime game? it seems to be quite a favorite on forums? what do you even do there?". I tried to explain and it was kinda hard because pc guys have absolutely no games that are similar to it. Even if you exclude 3d exploration out of the equation, what are any notable PC games with Metroidvania gameplay?
...
Exactly.
(well maybe Unreal and Unreal 2: Awakening, but again more in alien planet atmosphere and music, not in gameplay, so yeah, doesn't count)
Same with Zelda. A few elements here and there were employed by other games and genres and evolved on, like GTA and many other 3d games, but otherwise Zelda still is a thing-in-itself.
Apart from somewhat general inaccessibility my other problem with Zelda games are puzzles. Especially overworld puzzles that you have to do to get inside next dungeon. Funny i almost never got lost in original NES game but i get myself looking for instructions in EVERY damn game after it. In original game all it took for me to find next dungeon is just to wander a bit and i'd stumble upon something eventually, i've found all dungeons by myself, never had to resort to walkthrough even once.
In later games i try to find an answer which is usually an easy and obvious to some, but i can't understand it so i get frustrated and just lose interest. It usually takes me months to tackle the game again. It took me more than a year to finish WW and OOT because of this and that's the only ones i DID finish.
Why am i even playing them if they're so frustrating. I guess because i really like the music? And action parts of gameplay are still very good and compelling for me.
Sorry for long ranty introduction, let's fast forward to today's me, who after NES game played:
Link's Awakening: played on 3DS, enjoyed whimsical style and most of the dungeons, controls are too inconvenient because Gameboy's lack of buttons though, had to resort to walkthrough once cause i couldn't understand where should i go for next dungeon Wind Waker: played on Wii, LOVED it, the cartoonish style is really appealing to me, i got stuck on overworld puzzles three or four times, didn't understand pictograph Ocarina of Time: played on 3DS, it's okay, i finished it more or less the same day WW and it kinda felt "eh" to me, and again got stuck on puzzles too many times (more than in WW), both in overworld and inside the dungeons, didn't understand mask system which makes me feel bad, but i really don't feel like replaying it Skyward Sword: got it day one (okay week one, considering shipping time but whatever), played till the first encounter to Ghirahim and kinda stopped. I still enjoyed what little i played very, very much. Have absolutely no problem with long intro and "handholding" of the game because i'm the person who as you understand really needs it.
Majora's Mask: I am playing Majora's Mask on Wii's Virtual Console. I bought it more than a year ago and after getting through introduction i ended up in city where "puzzles syndrome" struck immediately. I didn't understand what am i supposed to do, i couldn't even get out of the city so as per usual i got frustrated and stopped playing for at least half a year.
During that time i started playing both OOT and WW and familiarized myself on how Zelda games work, so i came back and managed to get out to overworld but still couldn't find first dungeon.
A few weeks later i got to Deku palace and it's stealth-y action sequence. I kinda liked it, but i took too much of my sweet time so i had reset and start all over again in a new three day cycle. Then i got to first dungeon and the same happened -- it took me too much time to get to the final hall before the boss (not even to the boss himself), time was gone and i had to redo the dungeon all over again. On my second playthrough i got to boss and beat him and after some story stuff went after Deku palace buttler and... the timer went over in the middle of it. Man, i hated that system at that moment and was cussing like mad. Thankfully, the dungeon was already beat so i didn't had to plow through it third time, too bad i didn't realized it before and the game never bothered to explain it to me earlier.
It was like that on and off, for more than a year now. I beat three dungeons since then and now i'm stuck, [forrestgump]again[/forrestgump], trying to get inside the last dungeon in Ikana canyon.
For two months on and off i was trying to find a way in, explored and went in everywhere and but couldn't find the solution. I've found dancing spirit (who i didn't understood what to do with either) and caves with Sheikah stones but not that "spirit vessel".
This morning i gave in and finally looked it up.
I was supposed to show Garo mask to hooded guy to get there.
The funny and sad thing is i have it already. I just never made a connection and still after reading the solution i don't understand it. The hooded guy requires to show him a spirit vessel. Okay, how's that generic mask a spirit vessel? The description for this mask doesn't say it's a vessel of any kind. It kinda says it makes you invisible or something. That's all.
Okay that's usual Zelda puzzles crap that i guess i will have to deal with for eternity since Nintendo i'm sure will never change it, but what did i enjoyed of the game?
First of all, of course, the general atmosphere of doom that prevails over all. The final music with the bells that really drives it home.
Characters and their story arcs are uncharacteristically strong for a Zelda game. Fixed time system really pays itself when you resolve character arcs. Even if i hated it at first, when i couldn't finish a dungeon within time limit, after you discover reverse time song, it stops being a problem. And everything is forgiven when you make someone happy even if for a little while.
Music apart from ambient "end of the world" theme isn't really as strong as in other games, most of it is reused from OOT.
Still it's quite a gaming experience, if nothing than an original time system and overall gloomy atmosphere.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on December 19, 2012, 06:51:03 AM
I have to say, it's interesting to hear your account of how you were introduced to the series and the issues that you've had with Majora's Mask (and maybe polygonal Zelda games generally?). I'm actually finding it very difficult to empathise though, because my history with Zelda and with Majora's Mask in particular seems to be so very different from your own.
I for instance believe that far from being inaccessible to newcomers, the Zelda games have become overly concerned with accessibility and it has hurt the games themselves.
I also think that The Legend of Zelda on NES is obtuse and confusing when compared to something like Skyward Sword which is almost entirely linear and tutorial-laden.
I also never found Majora's Mask to be all that confusing or difficult. I played Majora for the first time back in 2009 when it was release on VC. The mechanics of slowing down time, speeing up time, warping between save points etc. made it so that I never felt pressured for time. I am aware that for some people the tutorial for slowing time might not have been explicit enough, but personally I feel it was made pretty clear. Once I'd grasped that detail everything else just seemed to fall in to place and it became a Zelda game (albiet with a cool quirk).
Things like showing the hood mask to the guy in the hood, or using the Mask of Scents to sniff out mushrooms just seemed very apparent to me.
I'm not saying your opinion is in any way wrong, I just find it fascinating that people can approach the same thing from entirely different perspectives.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: azeke on December 19, 2012, 07:33:53 AM
I for instance believe that far from being inaccessible to newcomers, the Zelda games have become overly concerned with accessibility and it has hurt the games themselves.
Well you have one witness of a newcomer to the series who finds NES game with it's open world design much more accessible than any other game in the series.
I also never found Majora's Mask to be all that confusing or difficult.
It's not about about difficulty at all. If it was about enemies being especially tricky or something, i can eventually overcome it by trying again and again and i can visibly see my progress by killing more and more monsters and advancing further and further with each try. Which is why from gameplay perspective i enjoy original game the most: it's pretty hard in arcadey sense of the word but it's fair. You know you're not getting screwed over because you don't have that specific item at some moment, you always have a chance. I know i can always practice and get better and i will see for myself that i am better.
Which is why Zelda puzzles are so frustrating, especially overworld ones. When i can't get them, it's like a stone wall, i try wander around looking for clues in the areas i've already been and i backtrack and backtrack backtrack and when i find nothing helpful at all i feel like i just spent four hours and haven't progressed an inch. Awful feeling like i'm banging my head against that wall and can't do anything.
Feeling which only deepens when i give up and look up the solution.
I can deal with action. I love it. Give me more action. It's non-action-y parts i have problems with.
Things like showing the hood mask to the guy in the hood, or using the Mask of Scents to sniff out mushrooms just seemed very apparent to me.
But that doesn't make sense... I will need to check descriptions for the mask and hooded guy's request when i come home, but i specifically remember him asking for spirit vessel. Which is why i vacuumed all over cemetery and even went back to Woodfall temple because it had parts with Lens of Truth which is related to spirits.
Why is he asking for one thing when he wants another thing?
Ugh...
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on December 19, 2012, 08:05:48 AM
Why is he asking for one thing when he wants another thing?
Because he's a character in the game not the game designer, lol. To my recollection there aren't too many instances where a character in that game will flat out ask you to present them with a specific mask. A Witch might talk to you about not being able to sniff out mushrooms, a milk bar owner might only allow you to enter their establishment once you've demonstrated your membership, and a pair of dancers might comment about not being able to choreograph a new dance, but for characters to flat out ask you to put on a specific mask would not only undermine them as characters it also wouldn't be any fun.
I also pulled up a text dump of the game. When you get the Garo mask it says
'You got the Garo's Mask! The wandering ninja spirits who appear at Ikana once wore this.'
When you view the information in the start screen it says
'Garo's Mask This mask can summon the hidden Garo ninjas. Wear it with (C).'
Then when you go to Ikana Canyon Tatl alerts you to the presence of an unseen spirit.
I've yet to make my way to this area on my current playthrough and I'll be interested to see how that section plays out, but I honestly don't remember that point in the game giving me any problems in my original playthrough. Your mileage may vary.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Ian Sane on December 20, 2012, 12:59:33 PM
Quote
Apart from somewhat general inaccessibility my other problem with Zelda games are puzzles. Especially overworld puzzles that you have to do to get inside next dungeon. Funny i almost never got lost in original NES game but i get myself looking for instructions in EVERY damn game after it. In original game all it took for me to find next dungeon is just to wander a bit and i'd stumble upon something eventually, i've found all dungeons by myself, never had to resort to walkthrough even once.
In later games i try to find an answer which is usually an easy and obvious to some, but i can't understand it so i get frustrated and just lose interest. It usually takes me months to tackle the game again. It took me more than a year to finish WW and OOT because of this and that's the only ones i DID finish.
I find that Nintendo kind of sucks at determining what the player should be able to figure out on his own. It seems with recent Zelda games if the solution is obvious and intuitive the game will hit me over the head with obvious hints to the point that they might as well just do it for me. But then the most obtuse, illogical puzzles will have no hint at all and I'll waste time trying to interact with an object that's just scenery or try to time some impossible manuever to get somewhere the game doesn't want me to go yet.
The most illogical puzzle I can think of is in OoT where you have to play the forest song for Darunia. What possible reason would there be for Link to go back to the forest he just left five minutes ago to retrieve some song? The only "hint" is Navi outright telling you to go there and I had quickly learned to completely ignore Navi early on so I either never responded to her "Hey! Listen!" or I just skipped through the text. The problem is that the whole solution is inconsistent with the game's narrative. Link had just left the forest for the first time ever and has more of less been banned for "killing" the Deku Tree. In any decent story Link would not return until he was an adult, but OoT has you go back almost right away. Yeah, so what's the big deal with Link leaving home if he can and will just pop by whenever he wants? At the time we were only a few years removed from the era of "rescue the Princess" stories where the narrative was mostly in the manual. So "holy ****, there's somewhat of a story here" was actually part of the thrill for me. So I escaped into the story and then Nintendo expected me to immediately go back to the place I was just seemingly banished from forever and it just made no sense so I needed a walkthrough to get me through that part. Today I would have figured it out using "gamer logic" which is different and often contradictory to "real logic". If the game requires "gamer logic" then it isn't really intuitively designed.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Fatty The Hutt on December 20, 2012, 02:37:59 PM
I find that Nintendo kind of sucks at determining what the player should be able to figure out on his own. It seems with recent Zelda games if the solution is obvious and intuitive the game will hit me over the head with obvious hints to the point that they might as well just do it for me. But then the most obtuse, illogical puzzles will have no hint at all and I'll waste time trying to interact with an object that's just scenery or try to time some impossible manuever to get somewhere the game doesn't want me to go yet.
You have provided gross generalizations apparently backed up by a single example which in no way supports your statements. You are in serious danger of failing this assignment, Mr. Sane.
An example from OOT is in no way from a "recent Zelda Game". I will permit examples from Skyward Sword, Spirit Tracks, Phantom Hourglass and even Twilight Princess, though this latter is straining the bounds of "recent".
As you have cited an apparent trend that spans more than one game, I will require a number of examples that illustrate this apparent "trend" and the examples must be from multiple games. Keep in mind that you are required to provide examples of both "obvious and intuitive" and "obtuse or illogical" puzzles.
As for your opening statement that "Nintendo kind of sucks at determining what the player should be able to figure out on his own", I am prepared to be convinced this generalization is supportable. However, you may wish to consider revising the scope of the statement so that it refers only to "recent Zelda games".
I'll expect your work on my desk in the morning. If you are unable to comply with the requirements of this assignment Mr. Sane, then I remind you that, according to Nintendo LawTM, you are required to withdraw your statements.
Govern yourself accordingly.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: EasyCure on December 20, 2012, 03:22:14 PM
wtf did I just read? lol
It's been a few years since I last played but I'm positive only Milo ”bans” you for killing the tree, and its established through the narrative that he's... well, a prick who thinks he's the boss. In fact he may be the only person who specifically blames you for the Deku trees death. everyone else is either generally sad or don't mention it.
the ” big deal” about leaving the forest is that Kokiri can't leave the forest because they would supposedly die. Before the Deku tree dies, though, he tells Link he's not actually a Kokiri so it seems it was fate that he was orphaned in the forest, because he can venture out and save the world.. or something.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on December 22, 2012, 06:20:55 PM
Just an update.
Yesterday I completed the Greatbay Temple (one of my favourites), and today I finished up both Skull Houses. I know the latter are glorified treasure hunts but for whatever reason I find them really satisfying. I also picked up the Mirror Shield from the Gibdo Well and plan on going through the Stone Tower sometime after the Holidays.
I'm actually surprised by just how much fun this playthrough has been. I had only played through the game once before, but I had enjoyed the experience enough to put Majora's Mask above Ocarina of Time in terms of my favourite Zelda games. Playing through it again for the upcoming Retroactive has just cemented that opinion.
Majora's Mask is incredible.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: lolmonade on December 26, 2012, 10:37:03 PM
So having a few days off before going back to work on the 2nd of January, I decided to take the plunge and start a new game for Majora's Mask.
At this point, I've gotten through the initial clock town objectives, and am being told to head towards the swamp.
Definitely the farthest I've gotten so far, and feel good about not having to use a walkthrough yet. I stopped playing more as a chance to take a break than getting tired/bored, but I will admit my favorite parts have all been when they refer back to Ocarina of Time.
That being said, I'll definitely continue pushing on in hopes that this Zelda game carves a piece into my "favorite games" Pie.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: azeke on January 13, 2013, 04:13:44 AM
So, after a hint from MiiVerse about music box house (i'd never guessed it myself, i knew i had to use bombs and did it many times never understood i am supposed to hide from the girl) and got the mask and went to labyrinth with mummies. They started asking for some stuff so of course... i started using Song of Soaring and went teleporting around the world looking for stuff they asked. I bought blue potion from plant monster (i contemplated saving witch in the swamp again for her to open her shop and buy it from her but thought it was too much hassle), got lots of flashing seeds in the swamp and other stuff. The most annoying stuff was when some mummy asked for water and i went everywhere and couldn't get anywhere. I can take fish from the ponds alright (first fish i got from the shop with itchy shopkeeper) but can't take the water. I'm like: "IT'S RIGHT THERE GODDAMMIT, TAKE IT".
I went to snowy area and went all the way up to a cave wit the stone guy's grave to get the water.
And after i went though all this to get all that stuff i come to labyrinth again and see that all that stuff is actually in there already.
Great. Okay that was on me but still. I spent half an hour on nothing and of course i don't want to blame myself for being retarded so i'm gonna blame the game for the lack of hints.
Also placing one single mummy that asks for flashing seeds and the only place you can get them in the labyrinth is RIGHT behind the door that this mummy is guarding is just plain stupid or sloppy.
Okay i opened everything and the only mummy left is the asking for calcium. I then found a cow and then spent another fifteen minutes trying to understand what game wants me to do to get the milk.
Then i gave up and looked it up and i was supposed to use one of the songs. Which of source made zero sense to me. Also funny how i already tried a few of other songs and wanted to try this particular one and but thought "nah, that's just too dumb and makes no sense at all".
TLDR. Puzzles in this games are making me angry.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on January 13, 2013, 06:06:08 AM
Yeah, I didn't care for that section either. Talk about fetch quests.
Although, I didn't have any difficulty with the Milk part, but that's probably because I had gotten milk from cows in Ocarina of Time by the same means. It made sense, to me at least, because I had learned 'Epona's Song' on a ranch, but I can also see why that might never occur to somebody.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: EasyCure on January 13, 2013, 11:24:16 AM
So wait, you're saying Nintendo crafted a game that DIDN'T hold your hand!? SOMEBODY CALL IAN, QUICK!
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: azeke on January 13, 2013, 12:40:59 PM
So i'm in Stone Tower and that whole create your double thing to press buttons is very tiresome.
Was surprised and very glad to see an owl in the middle of it. Saved and quit. Will finish it later.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Fatty The Hutt on January 13, 2013, 07:52:58 PM
So wait, you're saying Nintendo crafted a game that DIDN'T hold your hand!? SOMEBODY CALL IAN, QUICK!
AHHHHhahahahahahaha.
+1, if I could
My update is: I got through the first temple on my own but didn't manage to find all the fairies, so still want to go back and do that. Then I grabbed a guide and went back and did a whole bunch of stuff I apparently missed. Have a fair few masks now and the side quests were mostly pretty fun.
Since then, haven't been motivated to continue because I am a bit put off by the idea that I have to re-do everything everytime I reset time. I know, duh, but it seems like the deeper you get into the game, the more steps need to be redone before continuing on and I am afeared of running out of time again.
I'm overthinking it, I know. But also, there are no "quick" play sessions with this game, it seems. It's like climbing a hill everytime I boot it up. And, I kknow I could quick save, but there's so many linear steps and other crap to keep track of, I am loathe to stop a playsession halfway through something. Its liek, I'll do a session to do all the stuff that leads to a dungeon. Then I'll do a dungeon session. No middle ground.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on January 14, 2013, 02:21:40 AM
Since then, haven't been motivated to continue because I am a bit put off by the idea that I have to re-do everything everytime I reset time. I know, duh, but it seems like the deeper you get into the game, the more steps need to be redone before continuing on and I am afeared of running out of time again.
I'm overthinking it, I know. But also, there are no "quick" play sessions with this game, it seems. It's like climbing a hill everytime I boot it up. And, I kknow I could quick save, but there's so many linear steps and other crap to keep track of, I am loathe to stop a playsession halfway through something. Its liek, I'll do a session to do all the stuff that leads to a dungeon. Then I'll do a dungeon session. No middle ground.
Maybe I'm just playing this game differently from most people, but I don't find myself ever having to redo things (perhaps with the exception of the Kafei sidequest which does require trial and error). I usually find that after I've completed a side quest the game gives me what I need to by-pass having to do that sidequest again. Help the girls on the ranch and you'll be given a mask so that you don't have to do it again. Make it to the shadow tower and there's an owl there so that you don't have to make the journey again.
My advice to people playing this game that feel they're having to go through certain steps multiple times is to have a goal in mind for each 3 day period you play. As long as you see that particular side quest through to it's conclusion then you really should not need to do it again.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: EasyCure on January 14, 2013, 12:00:18 PM
My first time ever playing the game, I wasted a lot of time exploring everything I could. Eventually I realized this would hurt my play experience and took a different approach then I've ever done with a Zelda game: march forward (until those save points are found) then back-track.
It didn't change the experience too much, especially once you're given the ability to warp. One day I could progress my journey as far as I wanted then once my 3-days reset I'd revisit everything I couldn't and see what type of side quest I could go on or what type of secrets I could find.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: azeke on January 15, 2013, 03:24:54 PM
Stone Tower Temple when upside down is so terrifying for me. I was always afraid i will fall up to the sky. Still don't like looking straight up at clear sky or at tall building..
Thanks, game.
I am beat. It's 2 AM, and i think i am somewhere 60% at beating Stone Tower Temple, but my job at the morning aint gonna go anywhere so i called it a night and saved the game to replay it all later. But eh, it's nothing, this temple i think is very fast. I did everything to this point within the hour or so and that was my first try.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on January 15, 2013, 05:24:08 PM
Playing this a second time, I really feel like I've gained a better understanding of the manner in which I approach playing video games.
For instance, on both occasions I've gotten stuck at the same part in the Shadow Tower and wasted a lot time wandering about trying to figure it out (I really dislike using guides).
It was only when I finally found the solution that I realised I had got stuck at the exact same point last time too. I must just be really stubborn. I think I know why that is though. I always seem to poke and prod at games extensively, trying to figure out what's possible and what's not (that's probably why I find the Metroid series and games of that ilk so satisfying). This approach to games, however, does mean that I have a tendency to obfuscate things which should be pretty straight forward. I always seem to get so caught up in rummaging that I lose sight of where I was supposed to be going or how to get back on track.
The section in the Shadow Tower, for intance, that has caught me out twice now is the part where you have to Hookshot across to the chest on the roof (which had previously been the floor) in order to get to the Boss Door. I think that on both occasions that I collected the Boss Key I then decided to back track in order to collect all the fairies. By the time I've done that, however, I've lost my bearings and, because I've switched gravity so many times, can no longer seem to get back on track.
These sorts of recurring issues that I have with games really must say something about the way my mind works, because I seem to keep falling into the same traps.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Ian Sane on January 15, 2013, 06:12:49 PM
I never collected the fairies on my first go through the dungeons for fear of running out of time. I would beat the dungeon and then later dedicate a new three day cycle for finding the fairies. I would have a key plan for each three day cycle. Getting to a dungeon would be one cycle, the dungeon itself would be another, etc.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: EasyCure on January 15, 2013, 10:57:04 PM
The first time I ever played MM I gave up at the Stone Tower Temple too, but relatively early on (from what I can remember) but the strangest part was I knew what I had to do but for some reason it wasn't working how I thought it should.. I wish I could remember the room to describe it better.. all I know is I gave up. Seriously just gave up and didn't play the game again until years later when the Gamecube collection was released, and when I got to that Temple I didn't even realize I had blown through the part that I was stuck on all those years ago.. go figure.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on January 16, 2013, 02:18:05 AM
Speaking of the Shadow Tower, what is everyone's favourite Majora's Mask dungeon/temple?
Although Stone Tower has a really cool concept, I think my favourite would either be Great Bay or Snowhead. Great Bay probably wins it for me. Apart from being a great dungeon to play through (changing the direction of the turbine so that the water is pushed into different vents was a really cool puzzle, and freezing and un-freezing jets of water in order to turn and stop various cogs was similarly fun) I also think that as a water temple equivalent it's made so much better by the fact that you can swim underwater, and submerge and surface easily by wearing the Zora mask. Plus, I really dig the trippy, LSD-induced, colour palette of that dungeon.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Luigi Dude on January 16, 2013, 02:59:18 AM
Snowhead is my favorite. I loved the Goron gameplay mechanics the best out of all the transformations so that Temple was the most fun to play, especially the boss.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Ian Sane on January 16, 2013, 01:44:44 PM
Since MM has only four "proper" dungeons I actually can remember each of them quite well. I think Great Bay was my favourite since it's basically a good water dungeon. I was very impressed by OoT at the time but there were a few things that bugged me and seemed lazy and rushed. The camera angle was fixed in Castle Town and you couldn't swim. MM addressed both of those. A water dungeon where you can swim just makes perfect sense.
Swimming in MM was so much fun, while swimming in most N64 games was a huge chore.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on January 18, 2013, 07:54:58 AM
So I've decided to do the Anju & Kafei quest today (I'm actually writing this while waiting for in-game time to reach 11:30 PM so I can speak with Anju in the kitchen) and it got me wondering about what Nintendo could add or change if Majora's Mask were to be re-released on 3DS.
The ability to skip to evening or the morning of the next day is great and all, but what would make this game move a lot quicker would be the ability to specify the time you want to jump to. Need to speak with Anju in the kitchen at 11:30? Instead of jumping to 6PM and waiting around, why not allow the player to jump in 1 hour increments. That way you could jump to 11:00 PM and bypass a lot of waiting around. I can even see how such a feature might be displayed on the 3DS. It could simply be a full view of the half clock face you see in the current version of Majora's Mask, only instead of taking up real estate on the main screen it could be put down on the bottom screen. The player would simply have to play the sped up Song of Time and then drag the hand of the clock to the designated hour and hey presto.
I also think it would be kind of useful if the Bomber's Notebook had some sort of alarm feature, so that you could set reminders.
Anyway, it's nearly 11:00 PM so I better go speak with Anju. To be honest, I don't understand why she couldn't have just handed me the damn letter when I spoke with her earilier. ;)
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Ian Sane on January 18, 2013, 12:04:32 PM
Being able to specify the time would be a good addition. I also would like the game to pause time while you're in a dungeon since there is no real benefit in having the time limit in that case or at least make it an option. The quick save probably needs to be made more flexible to accomodate the switch to a handheld.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: azeke on January 18, 2013, 01:19:57 PM
Beat stone tower temple boss and got to skull kid part. I think i had to reverse that damned thing like ten times to find all fairies, very time consuming when you do all those statues (i wasn't sure if soaring spell destroys your progress in the dungeon when you come out of it, so i didn't use soaring to get from temple exit and owl).
When i got into the moon i realised i didn't save and chickened out by turning the time back and saving.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: azeke on January 19, 2013, 01:17:48 PM
I am now at the last boss and i realize my biggest problem with entire Zelda series.
I am constantly out of loop of what's going to happen when i leave locations. Will my progress save or will i have to redo it again? Or what will happen with my save when i go back?
On the last location i gave up a huge number of masks and was afraid it's now permanent, and if i go back in time that will automatically save my current status too and will mess up my save file.
I gave up on insect kid's dungeon where i ran out of bombchus and they give you 10 and that's it. And i don't know how those bombchu work.
Then i started an actual boss fight and at first attempt with 10+ hearts i got to third form and then died. Since i gave up so many of my masks i didn't dared to go back to stock up for some fairies and stuff and went on with three hearts game gives you after you fail boss fight. I tried to do it on three hearts for a few hours. I can't do it. I can't even get to as far as i did on my first try.
So just now i said whatever, screw it, i am going back and will get bombchus and fairies and do it again. I got back and saved -- and magically all my masks are back!
WHY DIDN'T YOU TOLD ME EARLIER, GAME? I spent literally hours retrying final boss on three hearts again and again, being afraid of messing up my save file all this time.
Again, out of loop.
Whatever, i only need two other masks for full set, might as well go for this...
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on January 19, 2013, 09:41:00 PM
Wait! You're the same person who is really enjoying La Mulana right? Because La Mulana is way more opaque than Majora's Mask.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on January 20, 2013, 09:42:38 AM
Just finished Majora this morning. Really enjoyed it.
The last boss is a total joke with the Fierce Deity mask though. I've never not got the Deity mask so I'm curious as to whether or not it's any more difficult without it. Can anyone who has beat the last boss without getting the Deity mask tell me how that plays out?
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: EasyCure on January 20, 2013, 11:17:53 AM
Just finished Majora this morning. Really enjoyed it.
The last boss is a total joke with the Fierce Deity mask though. I've never not got the Deity mask so I'm curious as to whether or not it's any more difficult without it. Can anyone who has beat the last boss without getting the Deity mask tell me how that plays out?
I don't remember it being that bad once I got his patters down, but I only beat him sans FDM once and likely can't remember all the details.
Title: Re: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread
Post by: MagicCow64 on January 21, 2013, 01:02:21 AM
Yeah, I was going to respond to an earlier post about how the game might be updated for a 3DS rerelease by suggesting that they add a "real" final boss to go toe to toe with FDM Link, which would also be a reward for collecting all the masks. For some reason developers have long lost the knack for properly rewarding completionists. Nintendo would never commission this (though it did happen in the Oracle games in the first place).
I do recall the final boss being one of the more difficult Zelda boss fights without FDM.
