Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: oohhboy on July 13, 2012, 08:50:36 AM
Title: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: oohhboy on July 13, 2012, 08:50:36 AM
...for a second circle pad (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-07-13-nintendo-3ds-xl-not-big-enough-to-fit-second-circle-pad). This got a good laugh out of me. I wasn't even sure whether or not to stick this bit of news in the funhaus.
Quote from: Iwata Sez
Later this month the 3DS XL handheld launches in Europe. When you were designing the XL were you tempted to put in a second analogue stick as standard?
When we looked at the design of the 3DS XL we had to look at various factors, one was battery life, one was the overall size of the unit, and we had to make some trade-offs. The choice, if we were going to include the second analogue stick, was to reduce the size of the batters or make the unit much bigger.
What we wanted to do was have a bigger screen in comparison with the overall size of the system, so had various discussions and had to make trade-offs and this is the outcome.Attaching a second analogue stick is possible but it would have made the system even bigger and, though it perhaps puts a burden on people that really want that second stick, it’s a call we had to make and these people will have to live with it. This [the lack of a second stick] isn’t my main focus when I look at the 3DS XL, it’s one point we had to cover, but for me personally I’m quite happy with the product we’re able to offer.
Given the size of that thing, most people assumed you are throwing mobility out the window, why not go the whole hog? The thing is big enough to kill a man as it is, CPPXL would allow you to take on a bear.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: Chozo Ghost on July 13, 2012, 09:32:48 AM
There is no excuse because one side of the handheld is apparently able to accommodate a circle pad with no problem, and why can't there be symmetry between both sides? Sony has been doing that for 15+ years with the dualshock controller. Nintendo is doing this themselves with the Wii U tablet controller. All the 3DS has to do is mimic the layout of the U-tablet and everything would work out fine. If one side can fit a circle pad then so too should the other side be able to.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: Ceric on July 13, 2012, 09:43:41 AM
You guys do realize that the "dead space" probably has battery right under it. Another analog would have take that space making them have a smaller area for a battery or to make the whole unit thicker. Battery Life is one of the top complaints way over not having a second analog stick.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: Chozo Ghost on July 13, 2012, 09:48:18 AM
I don't know what's under that "dead space" or not. The only thing I do know is that somehow the Vita is able to have dual analog. So why is it that Sony is able to do what Nintendon't?
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: Ceric on July 13, 2012, 09:52:56 AM
I don't know what's under that "dead space" or not. The only thing I do know is that somehow the Vita is able to have dual analog. So why is it that Sony is able to do what Nintendon't?
My computer can have multiple dual analog stick, A 102+ button controller, a 5 button+ 2D Spatial control device,etc. Why doesn't the 3DS?
Why doesn't my 3DS have Backtouch? MultiTouch? Rumble Feedback? A Second set of Triggers?
I honestly do not understand why everyone is hung up on that second analog stick. Also last I checked an Equivalent Vita was $295.98 (Vita + 4gb Memory Card (Smallest available))
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: Hey Einstein! on July 13, 2012, 10:49:42 AM
Please internet... let it lie!
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: Oblivion on July 13, 2012, 12:41:43 PM
I don't know what's under that "dead space" or not. The only thing I do know is that somehow the Vita is able to have dual analog. So why is it that Sony is able to do what Nintendon't?
They are two totally different systems, with two totally different analog sticks, and you could fit three Vita stciks on one 3DS stick.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: lolmonade on July 13, 2012, 01:03:53 PM
I'm falling in line with Ceric on this one. I can appreciate that more control options are rarely a BAD thing, but as someone who uses the 3DS as a secondary gaming option, I don't see myself playing many games that would benefit from dual Analog on it, and anything that can keep the cost of the system down to reasonable while increasing size and (hopefully) battery life is a great positive to me.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: Chozo Ghost on July 13, 2012, 01:34:00 PM
I don't know what's under that "dead space" or not. The only thing I do know is that somehow the Vita is able to have dual analog. So why is it that Sony is able to do what Nintendon't?
They are two totally different systems, with two totally different analog sticks, and you could fit three Vita stciks on one 3DS stick.
But the beauty of a revision is that they had the opportunity to make those circle pads smaller, or even scrap them entirely in favor of traditional sticks like the Vita uses. I do understand the 3DS is a clamshell and needs to close up and that's probably Nintendo's reasoning in going with the flat circle pads in the first place, but there are ways they could have gotten traditional sticks to work. For example, there could be cavities on the top half so when it closes down the sticks would go into those cavities and that way it wouldn't interfere with the clamshell design. Another thing they could have done is have the sticks fold out or something. So you see there are solutions.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: Oblivion on July 13, 2012, 01:41:52 PM
No thanks. I love the 3DS analog sticks and I hate the Vita ones. There doesn't need to be a "solution" to something that works.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: broodwars on July 13, 2012, 01:46:02 PM
and you could fit three Vita stciks on one 3DS stick.
No, you couldn't (the 3DS Circle Pad is about the same size as the Vita's analog sticks, if not a little smaller), and the 3DS's directional control device is not an analog sick.
I'm falling in line with Ceric on this one. I can appreciate that more control options are rarely a BAD thing, but as someone who uses the 3DS as a secondary gaming option, I don't see myself playing many games that would benefit from dual Analog on it, and anything that can keep the cost of the system down to reasonable while increasing size and (hopefully) battery life is a great positive to me.
Right now, I own 4 3DS games. Half of those are ones that would/do benefit immensely from a second Circle Pad: Resident Evil Revelations and Kid Icarus Uprising. I have a Circle Pad Pro to play Revelations, and I couldn't imagine playing the game any other way. In fact, I'd say the Circle Pad Pro also solves another huge issue with the 3DS, and that's that it's a very uncomfortable system to hold with its tiny, box-y design for any game that actually uses the L and R triggers.
And Kid Icarus Uprising's controls are a total mess by default, to the point of being nearly unplayable without using the stand. And considering I play my handheld games lying down in bed, it's not often practical to use the stand. The game's control options would have been nearly completely solved if Nintendo had gotten over their arrogance and supported the Circle Pad Pro for dual analog control. And don't tell me that never occurred to them, because there's a control option in the game to play with the face buttons taking the place of the touch pad that's similar (though not quite) to dual analog control.
I don't buy Nintendo's B.S. here. If they wanted to, they could have designed the 3DS to support a second circle pad without changing the size of the XL. I doubt they did much more with the XL than resize the overall shell & screens and slapped a bigger battery in. But adding a second circle pad would have meant admitting that they weren't the All Knowing Gods of Gaming, that they'd gotten the design wrong with the original 3DS.
If Nintendo didn't want to put a second Circle Pad into the 3DS XL, fine. I don't like it and I think that (as usual these days) they're sacrificing playability for their bottom line and their modern arrogance when it comes to controls, but "fine". I have a Circle Pad Pro, and it works rather nicely for my needs. But they should just come out and say it rather than hide behind weak excuses. I could at least respect their decision to publicly pick a position and take a stand on it, rather than all this waffling.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: tendoboy1984 on July 13, 2012, 08:47:24 PM
The 3DS XL could easily accommodate a second circle pad. It would encourage more developers to make dual-analog games (the same games they've been making for PlayStation and Xbox for over 10 years). And porting games between the 3DS and Vita would be much simpler.
Adding a second circle pad wouldn't fragment the market, because most games are made with customizeable controls. If your 3DS doesn't have a second circle pad, then the game would automatically default to a different set of controls. The second circle pad just adds extra options for developers and gamers. And there's also the fact that a majority of games use dual analog controls, so having a second circle pad would make porting much easier.
As for the second set of L and R buttons, the 3DS doesn't need them. The touch screen can be used for any extra controls a game might need. This is also the reason why the Vita has 2 touch pads (front and back).
Nintendo dropped the ball once again. Oh well, maybe next time they'll finally step out of their bubble and catch up to the rest of the industry.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: TJ Spyke on July 13, 2012, 09:09:04 PM
Adding a second circle pad wouldn't fragment the market, because most games are made with customizeable controls. If your 3DS doesn't have a second circle pad, then the game would automatically default to a different set of controls. The second circle pad just adds extra options for developers and gamers. And there's also the fact that a majority of games use dual analog controls, so having a second circle pad would make porting much easier.
It would fragment the market, and no developer would make a game that required the second Circle Pad since it would screw the 10+ million existing 3DS owners. And they would have to waste time and money creating two different control schemes, something I bet most would not do.
Let's look at the fact that the PlayStation Vita is bombing while 3DS is breaking records set by the DS, I don't think 3DS needs to be worried about getting Vita ports. If anything, Sony needs to be worried about getting 3DS ports. Developers have the option to use the Circle Pad Pro but choose not to, so Nintendo seems to have made the right decision.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: tendoboy1984 on July 13, 2012, 09:17:32 PM
Adding a second circle pad wouldn't fragment the market, because most games are made with customizeable controls. If your 3DS doesn't have a second circle pad, then the game would automatically default to a different set of controls. The second circle pad just adds extra options for developers and gamers. And there's also the fact that a majority of games use dual analog controls, so having a second circle pad would make porting much easier.
It would fragment the market, and no developer would make a game that required the second Circle Pad since it would screw the 10+ million existing 3DS owners. And they would have to waste time and money creating two different control schemes, something I bet most would not do.
Let's look at the fact that the PlayStation Vita is bombing while 3DS is breaking records set by the DS, I don't think 3DS needs to be worried about getting Vita ports. If anything, Sony needs to be worried about getting 3DS ports. Developers have the option to use the Circle Pad Pro but choose not to, so Nintendo seems to have made the right decision.
If dual analog controls aren't that important, then explain why Nintendo needed to create the Classic Controller Pro in hopes of getting more 3rd-party support for the Wii.
Miyamoto stated that the 3DS doesn't need a second circle pad because the touch screen is a good substitute for camera control, so with that reasoning the Wii U controller wouldn't need a second analog stick either.
But Nintendo had to put a second analog stick in the Wii U controller so third-party developers would have an easier time porting their games over.
Also, there's the fact that a majority of games use dual-analog controls, and it's the standard control scheme for a majority of games.
Nintendo has no excuses. They should have given the 3DS a second circle pad from the beginning.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: TJ Spyke on July 13, 2012, 09:33:20 PM
The Classic Controller was for money, plain and simple. They also did not want to keep manufacturing the GameCube controller since that did everything the Classic Controller does. It was not about third party support. It was even aimed at Virtual Console games.
And consoles are different than handhelds, especially since with the handhelds it is a lot easier to use the touchscreen.
And no, a majority of 3DS games don't use it (which is what the discussion is about). In fact, no game requires it. IF any 3DS games required the Circle Pad Pro, there is a strong chance Nintendo would have put it in the 3DS XL. The 3DS has yet to have any problems because of a lack of two analog sticks and developers seem happy with the system.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: tendoboy1984 on July 13, 2012, 09:41:52 PM
The Classic Controller was for money, plain and simple. They also did not want to keep manufacturing the GameCube controller since that did everything the Classic Controller does. It was not about third party support. It was even aimed at Virtual Console games.
And consoles are different than handhelds, especially since with the handhelds it is a lot easier to use the touchscreen.
And no, a majority of 3DS games don't use it (which is what the discussion is about). In fact, no game requires it. IF any 3DS games required the Circle Pad Pro, there is a strong chance Nintendo would have put it in the 3DS XL. The 3DS has yet to have any problems because of a lack of two analog sticks and developers seem happy with the system.
But dual analog is the standard for game controllers. That's why people were begging Sony to put a second analog nub in the PSP. You think developers would be happy if console controllers went back to N64-style single stick designs with a touchscreen slapped on? The second stick is needed for camera control (third-person and first-person viewpoints).
A touchscreen isn't a good substitute because it would be too difficult to keep your hand steady while holding the controller in one hand, not to mention very uncomfortable (Kid Icarus Uprising says hello). That's why most game controllers haven't ditched the dual analog design, because it's very convenient for camera control. The Wii Remote was a good alternative, but Microsoft and Sony don't see it as a good replacement for their tried and true designs.
Also, the Classic Controller has a second stick to accommodate third-party developers that might want to include dual-analog controls in their games. Many Wii games give you the choice of pointer controls or analog controls, so it's not as difficult as you think to implement an optional control scheme. All of the Virtual Console games used the D-pad, and the N64 games only use one analog stick.
The PS Vita is the perfect example of giving developers everything they need to make the games they want. It has a capacitive touchscreen for simple smartphone ports, dual analog sticks for console-style games and shooters, and even a rear touchpad for additional controls. Sony finally made a handheld that does everything, yet the sales are terrible. Developers have a huge amount of options for making Vita games, yet they aren't doing much with the hardware they are given, and as a result, consumers are ignoring the system.
People (developers and consumers) bugged Sony to put a second stick in the PSP, they wanted a touchscreen for more simplistic games, they wanted more downloadable options. Sony does all of this with the Vita, yet no one seems to care. Where did Sony go wrong?
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: Ymeegod on July 13, 2012, 09:43:14 PM
"It would fragment the market, and no developer would make a game that required the second Circle Pad since it would screw the 10+ million existing 3DS owners"
They wouldn't? Then expain to me why you see all these "kinect" only titles then? Also adding an second analog stick would also solve the issues with lefthanded people. Ever draw with your offhand? That's what lefties have to do but if they had the option of switching left to right analog.
Bottom line, they should have included it, and they should also include an update to their firmware for current 3ds/CCp owners the option of analog swapping.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: Ceric on July 13, 2012, 09:53:34 PM
They wouldn't? Then expain to me why you see all these "kinect" only titles then? ...
Money-Hats.
Anyway are you seriously equating an Analog Stick with Kinect? Using that comparison the 3DS has a second stick in the touch pad which is a whole lot closer to another analog stick then the Kinect will ever be. To make a game that really takes advantage of Kinect you have to ditch the controller or it just because I glorified mic.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: nickmitch on July 13, 2012, 09:59:55 PM
"It would fragment the market, and no developer would make a game that required the second Circle Pad since it would screw the 10+ million existing 3DS owners"
They wouldn't? Then expain to me why you see all these "kinect" only titles then? Also adding an second analog stick would also solve the issues with lefthanded people. Ever draw with your offhand? That's what lefties have to do but if they had the option of switching left to right analog.
MS probably paid for them, so that there would be ample support for the thing. (Edit: beaten)
I feel like you guys think that adding the second circle pad is about as easy as gluing one on it directly. There has to be **** under it. In the space right now is a battery. Either Nintendo would have to take out the battery or make the whole thing bigger. It's pretty straight forward.
The only reasonable argument I've read here is that if Nintendo is already making a handheld that damn big, they might as well go all out and make it bigger since most portability is lost. Like oohhboy said.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: tendoboy1984 on July 13, 2012, 10:09:53 PM
Nintendo wouldn't have had any of these problems if they'd just built the 3DS with a second analog stick in the first place.
So Nintendo has no excuses. The Wii U makes them look like complete hypocrites, since they added a second analog stick to that even though it has a touch screen. This is the exact opposite of Miyamoto's reasoning with the 3DS design.
Nintendo added 2 analog sticks to the Wii U to make porting Xbox and PlayStation games easier. This was done to ensure they had more 3rd-party support. Abd they should have done the same thing with the 3DS.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: DonnyKD on July 13, 2012, 10:10:42 PM
I love how people are thinking that because Sony has Dual Analog and the Wii U does, then that somehow means the 3DS XL can.
1) Can you design a 3DS XL and fit a second Circle Pad on it? And no, photoshopping doesn't count.
2) Compare the 3DS and Wii U gamepad. Do they look ANYTHING alike?
3) Why the hell would they waste money on putting two Circle Pads on the 3DS if there's already an add-on that does that? With more battery life? AND EXTRA BUTTONS?!
4) What games use two analog? Oh, OK, Kid Icarus, Resident Evil, Monster Hunter... oh, wait, those games work perfectly fine with the TOUCH SCREEN too. You people want a second Circle Pad for the sake of a second Circle Pad.
You guys aren't handheld designers, you're GAMERS.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: tendoboy1984 on July 13, 2012, 10:16:30 PM
I love how people are thinking that because Sony has Dual Analog and the Wii U does, then that somehow means the 3DS XL can.
1) Can you design a 3DS XL and fit a second Circle Pad on it? And no, photoshopping doesn't count.
2) Compare the 3DS and Wii U gamepad. Do they look ANYTHING alike?
3) Why the hell would they waste money on putting two Circle Pads on the 3DS if there's already an add-on that does that? With more battery life? AND EXTRA BUTTONS?!
4) What games use two analog? Oh, OK, Kid Icarus, Resident Evil, Monster Hunter... oh, wait, those games work perfectly fine with the TOUCH SCREEN too. You people want a second Circle Pad for the sake of a second Circle Pad.
You guys aren't handheld designers, you're GAMERS.
Um all of those problems could have been solved if the 3DS had 2 analog sticks in the beginning. There would have been more games that used 2 analog sticks because it would have been a standard feature.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: nickmitch on July 13, 2012, 10:16:50 PM
Nintendo wouldn't have had any of these problems if they'd just built the 3DS with a second analog stick in the first place.
Well, they didn't. Get over it.
Quote
So Nintendo has no excuses. The Wii U makes them look like complete hypocrites, since they added a second analog stick to that even though it has a touch screen. This is the exact opposite of Miyamoto's reasoning with the 3DS design.
Nintendo added 2 analog sticks to the Wii U to make porting Xbox and PlayStation games easier. This was done to ensure they had more 3rd-party support. Abd they should have done the same thing with the 3DS.
The 3DS isn't supposed to be a PS360 port machine. And how does that make Nintendo hypocrites? The N64 had a joy stick and Nintendo released plenty of handhelds that didn't have one afterwards. Nintendo isn't making some grand anti-second analogue stick statement with the 3DS. The damn thing just didn't need one.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: broodwars on July 13, 2012, 10:17:12 PM
4) What games use two analog? Oh, OK, Kid Icarus, Resident Evil, Monster Hunter... oh, wait, those games work perfectly fine with the TOUCH SCREEN too.
No, they don't. Kid Icarus has some of the worst controls in any game I've ever played. Thankfully, the rest of the game makes up for how awful those controls are. As for Resident Evil, the game just flat-out plays better and like a much more modern game with two Circle Pads. As for Monster Hunter, those controls have never been good on any platform.
People shouldn't have to buy an accessory to make certain 3DS games playable, and it's almost like Nintendo goes out of their way not to support it anyway. That's especially hilarious in the case of Luigi's Mansion, considering the big selling point of the original Luigi's Mansion was "hey, we have two analog sticks now! Look at what we can do with them!" Considering that one of the main complaints about the DS' main competitor (and the original version of the 3DS) was the lack of a second analog nub, Nintendo should have added a second circle pad while they were busy making the XL brick-sized already.
As I've said before, I'd appreciate it if Nintendo would just cut the B.S. and just say that they have every intention of continuing to be as backwards as possible with game controls for as long as they can. The spin just annoys me.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: DonnyKD on July 13, 2012, 10:30:26 PM
"Um all of those problems could have been solved if the 3DS had 2 analog sticks in the beginning"
Implying that you know how the development went.
"Kid Icarus has some of the worst controls in any game I've ever played."
I don't know what Kid Icarus you're playing, but Kid Icarus Uprising didn't have bad controls. It has a learning curve, but I guess you only want games that can be tamed in a second.
"People shouldn't have to buy an accessory to make certain 3DS games playable"
Implying that they're unplayable.
"considering the big selling point of the original Luigi's Mansion was "hey, we have two analog sticks now! Look at what we can do with them!""
What kind of f***ed up Luigi's Mansion advertisement were YOU watching?
"Considering that one of the main complaints about the DS' main competitor (and the original version of the 3DS) was the lack of a second analog nub"
What "main complaints"? Again, where are you GETTING this stuff from?
"As I've said before, I'd appreciate it if Nintendo would just cut the B.S. and just say that they have every intention of continuing to be as backwards as possible with game controls for as long as they can."
Yes, they're so "backwards". They obviously didn't invent the D-Pad, the analog stick, the SNES designed controllers, motion controls, touch screen, and all that crap. They're behind because their handheld console doesn't have two pads installed on it! No, it's not that it doesn't HAVE two pads, it's because it's not on there from the start!
And by the way, putting two Circle Pads on the 3DS XL will once again alienate old ambassadors.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: broodwars on July 13, 2012, 10:51:49 PM
"Kid Icarus has some of the worst controls in any game I've ever played."
I don't know what Kid Icarus you're playing, but Kid Icarus Uprising didn't have bad controls. It has a learning curve, but I guess you only want games that can be tamed in a second.
Uprising's controls are awful once the game transitions to 3rd person ground combat. Turning the camera with the stylus is extremely sluggish and imprecise (the 90 degree "quick-turning" often overshoots the very thing I'm turning the camera to see); switching between abilities in the midst of combat using the Dpad is such a chore it's almost not worth the hassle of even using them (plus, you have to take your eyes off the top screen where all the action is to see them); and character movement is very hit-or-miss. I often dash when I don't want to, and I don't dash when I need to (and yes, I make sure to stop moving to allow the dash to activate). In the air, I also tend to run into an issue of using my special attack when I don't mean to because an enemy just happens to fly into the lower-left corner where the specials are placed on the bottom screen.
And all of that is secondary to the fact that playing the game as a portable experience just destroys whatever hand is holding the 3DS. The only way to play that game for more than 5 minutes without inducing carpal tunnel is to use the included stand, which likewise means the best way to play that "portable" game is to sit at a table or desk. Oh joy.
Like I said, though, the game does enough other things well that I still enjoy the game. But those controls are awful and show that a stylus (like the Wii pointer before it) is not an acceptable or comfortable substitute for a real analog stick on camera control.
Quote
"People shouldn't have to buy an accessory to make certain 3DS games playable"
Implying that they're unplayable.
Kid Icarus very nearly is and Resident Evil Revelations certainly is a far better game with two pads. I can't speak for Monster Hunter, but the fact that the Japanese had to get used to an archaic, hand-cramping control configuration like "The Claw" to play Monster Hunter tells me all I need to know about it.
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What kind of f***ed up Luigi's Mansion advertisement were YOU watching?
:confused; My, you must be young. Back when Nintendo was originally showing off the GameCube hardware with Luigi's Mansion, one of their big selling points was how you could now play the game like a Twin Stick Shooter, moving Luigi in one direction with one stick while aiming your Vacuum with the other. It was something you couldn't do on the N64, so it was a big deal with them whenever they showed off the game in the days before the GameCube launch.
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"Considering that one of the main complaints about the DS' main competitor (and the original version of the 3DS) was the lack of a second analog nub"
What "main complaints"? Again, where are you GETTING this stuff from?
I, apparently unlike you, actually listen to Sony-related podcasts, read Sony-related gaming articles, and browse Sony-related message boards. The lack of a second analog nub was something PSP owners complained about for pretty much the entire length of that handheld's life cycle. That you aren't aware of this is interesting.
Quote
Yes, they're so "backwards". They obviously didn't invent the D-Pad, the analog stick, the SNES designed controllers, motion controls, touch screen, and all that crap. They're behind because their handheld console doesn't have two pads installed on it! No, it's not that it doesn't HAVE two pads, it's because it's not on there from the start!
The lack of a second circle pad is just one thing in a line of issues across multiple platforms, including the Wii (also no second analog stick, a horrible button layout, and motion control that generally doesn't work even with the accessory meant to fix that).
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And by the way, putting two Circle Pads on the 3DS XL will once again alienate old ambassadors.
You know, I'm really starting to get tired of hearing about the "plight" of all those poor ambassadors who bought the 3DS on Day 1, who have had their asses kissed by Nintendo every single day since then and have access to all those Virtual Console games we mere mortals don't. They've been more than compensated for the horrors of having to play Steel Diver and Pilotwings Resort on an overpriced handheld.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: tendoboy1984 on July 13, 2012, 11:35:48 PM
And by the way, putting two Circle Pads on the 3DS XL will once again alienate old ambassadors.
Ever heard of patches? The games can be patched to allow for an updated dual analog control scheme. And the addition of a second stick is just another OPTION for developers to use when designing their controls. Many games have customizeable controls, so it would be very easy to just give the player different control options to choose from.
Examples of games that give you optional control layouts include:
- Kid Icarus Uprising - GoldenEye 007 (Classic Controller Pro or Wii Remote) - Killzone 3 (DualShock or Move controller) - Resistance 3 (DualShock or Move Controller) - Smash Bros. Brawl (GameCube, Classic Controller, Wii Remote and/or Nunchuk) - DKC Returns (Wii Remote and/or Nunchuk) - NSMB Wii (Wii Remote and/or Nunchuk) - GTA 4 (Sixaxis motion controls, Classic button layout, Modern button layout) - most other shooters and racing games on the PS3 and Xbox 360
Hell, Kid Icarus Uprising even lets you use the Circle Pad Pro, yet you still can't use the second Circle Pad for camera movement!
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on July 14, 2012, 01:55:33 AM
I was going to post a reply but Broodwars has pretty much covered everything I was going to say. So I won't bother...Wait! Does this count as posting a reply?...hmm.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: Ymeegod on July 14, 2012, 06:29:24 AM
"but Kid Icarus Uprising didn't have bad controls. It has a learning curve, but I guess you only want games that can be tamed in a second."
Yet ever professional review states otherwise. Just because you get "used" to it doesn't mean it wasn't foul to begin with. I can take an crap next to you and say "hey the smell isn't so bad and you'll get used to it".
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: Uncle_Optimus on July 14, 2012, 07:49:26 AM
I was curious, so I took a peek at the teardown for the OG 3ds. You can check it out here: http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Nintendo-3DS-Teardown/5029/1 (http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Nintendo-3DS-Teardown/5029/1)
It looks like quite the densely packed system...I can see the side without the circle pad is where the battery slots. In this case it is understandable when Nintendo states they made a design tradeoff. As for the XL, I have not seem any teardown so I am not ready to call BS on Satoru Iwata when he made this statement.
Actually Ive read transcripts from a few of his earnings report meetings now and I have to say he explains Nintendo's positions on a range of issues rather succinctly (or perhaps I should give the credit to an ace translation job). As such, I do find it needlessly cynical to say "he so full of crap". Disagreement with the features in an end product is one thing, but condemnation for shoddy and misleading management is another. There is the decent possibility that when this multibillion dollar publicly traded company, that probably doesnt want to hamstring its own competitivness for a reason like "pride" (dont think would go over well with shareholders), says that their very expensive r&d efforts concluded that price-performance-batteryLife measures dictated their decision...well, a decent Perhaps that it did. They have the experience and the history of success in this highly competitive market of portable game players that I can appreciate their judgement.
On an aside, regarding the Vita hardware design and why it can support two sticks, I believe the secret lies in the units base thickness. Exhibit A can be viewed here in Engadgets XL review: http://www.engadget.com/photos/nintendo-3ds-xl-review/#5138563 (http://www.engadget.com/photos/nintendo-3ds-xl-review/#5138563)
Note that the Vita structure thickness exceeds both halves of the XL when closed. Now remember that the XL houses the battery in the lower portion and perhaps this explains the space constraints when compared to Vita's battery compartment. Incidentally, the Vita's 2100 mAh battery delivers about the same range of gameplay hours as the OG 3ds. It is an interesting design question to consider how Sony's engineers will (or indeed if they even can) improve the battery life for the inevitable next hardware model. I assume they wont be increasing screen size and I dont know how much miniaturization of several key hardware components can save in space. If only battery tech could improve beyond the sad low incremental arc of this current age.
Edit: kudos for the funny OP btw, OooohBoi
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: NWR_insanolord on July 14, 2012, 08:00:17 AM
I honestly don't think Kid Icarus would control better with two sticks. To aim at the speeds required by that game the sensitivity on the right stick would have to be pretty damn high, and it would likely be just as hard to aim as it is now.
Back on topic, as I've argued before, Nintendo simply doesn't want a second analog to be the standard on 3DS. The Circle Pad Pro exists solely to get Capcom to put Monster Hunter on the platform, like the Classic Controller Pro before it. I understand that this is not a popular stance, and I don't really agree with it myself, but at this point I think it's fairly clear that that's what's going on.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: Chozo Ghost on July 14, 2012, 08:11:21 AM
Let's look at the fact that the PlayStation Vita is bombing while 3DS is breaking records set by the DS,
The Vita just launched in March. Is your memory that short that you don't remember that the 3DS also struggled in its first months of existence? I don't think the Vita right now is doing any worse than the 3DS did at this point in its life... of course the Vita probably isn't going to see a substantial price drop or hit games in the near future. But that's not the point. I think a few years from now the Vita will have turned around. We've seen that already happen with the PSP, which got off to a shitty start and did poorly up until Monster Hunter was released and its really turned around since then.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: NWR_insanolord on July 14, 2012, 08:57:12 AM
The Vita is doing worse than the 3DS was at this point in its life, but I think it's ridiculous to argue that has anything to do with how many analog sticks it has, which was the context in which that comparison was made. If you want to discuss the relative merits of the two handhelds, this is not the thread for that.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on July 14, 2012, 11:00:59 AM
I was curious, so I took a peek at the teardown for the OG 3ds. You can check it out here: http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Nintendo-3DS-Teardown/5029/1 (http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Nintendo-3DS-Teardown/5029/1)
It looks like quite the densely packed system...I can see the side without the circle pad is where the battery slots. In this case it is understandable when Nintendo states they made a design tradeoff. As for the XL, I have not seem any teardown so I am not ready to call BS on Satoru Iwata when he made this statement.
Not to suggest that Iwata is lying in this instance, but Nintendo do spout BS reasons all the time for why they do or don't do certain things. Remember when Miyamoto said that the reason NSMB Wii didn't have online multiplayer was because the game already tapped the Wii's processing power? That still makes me chuckle. I think part of why people get so agitated at Nintendo is because their rationale is so inexplicable.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: Adrock on July 14, 2012, 11:10:13 AM
Nintendo made the screens larger and the body larger to accomodate the screens, everything else is either pretty much the same size as the original 3DS or could have been made smaller. Is all that extra space really being occupied by the battery? I'm not sure I believe that. So, I find Iwata's explanation dubious at best though I can wait until ifixit does a teardown to make any final judgements on it.
If Nintendo wanted the XL to have the right circle pad, it would have the right circle pad. That's why they pay the people who make up their research and development department to come up with solutions to these things.
R&D employee: Oh, there isn't enough space for the right circle pad. Iwata: Make space. That's your job. Wait, where did these bananas come from?
Nintendo didn't want the right circle pad so there is no right circle pad. I'm not arguing for or against including one. I want no part of that. All I'm saying is that it's pretty obvious why the right circle pad isn't there.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: Uncle_Optimus on July 15, 2012, 01:41:31 AM
Back on topic, as I've argued before, Nintendo simply doesn't want a second analog to be the standard on 3DS. The Circle Pad Pro exists solely to get Capcom to put Monster Hunter on the platform, like the Classic Controller Pro before it. I understand that this is not a popular stance, and I don't really agree with it myself, but at this point I think it's fairly clear that that's what's going on.
I wonder if they rue the agreement at all (probably not, that one title practically puts Japan in the bag). When they showed the custom controller for Tri there was Generally excitement. In the case of 3ds it Looks to have created something of a headache...not a surpise, the CPP sent a mixed message they apparently did not intend to transmit. Of course, with the CPP XL due, the cynicism wont be going away anytime soon!
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: Adrock on July 15, 2012, 01:57:27 AM
The important thing is that 3DS is getting Monster Hunter 4. The series is such a juggernaut in Japan that people will buy the Circle Pad Pro and the Circle Pad Pro XL just to play the game if they don't have it already. That's probably part of the reason why Nintendo chose not include the right circle pad with the XL. They didn't need to. They got what they wanted. They made sure one of the most popular franchises in Japan is absolutely coming to their handheld. And it's being made with the hardware in mind. Even if Capcom ports the game to Vita, it will play better on 3DS. 3DS is already outperforming Vita and they took the one game that could have given Sony a fighting chance. Talk about a win. Now, imagine if it doesn't get ported. Imagine if Nintendo was able to get Monster Hunter 4 exclusive on 3DS; thus far, it is. Game over. They took away one of Sony's biggest 3rd party assets last generation and they took it with a big **** you. That's like how the Lakers scored Steve Nash for a few bad draft picks and some cash. They're clearly the winners in this even if they had to release a hideous peripheral.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: Chozo Ghost on July 15, 2012, 08:03:52 AM
Adrock, even without Monster Hunter the Vita could be saved by some other franchise which ends up becoming the next big thing. Monster Hunter is a new franchise that appeared out of the blue a few years ago without warning. There's every possibility something else could likewise appear out of nowhere and rescue the Vita. We can't count it out just yet. Miracles do happen.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: NWR_insanolord on July 15, 2012, 09:33:46 AM
The problem with that possibility is that the only reason Monster Hunter was the savior of the PSP is because the DS wasn't powerful enough to run it. For the Vita to have the same kind of success, there would have to be a hugely popular idea that comes out of the blue that the 3DS isn't capable of running, which seems a lot less likely.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: Adrock on July 15, 2012, 11:06:29 AM
Adrock, even without Monster Hunter the Vita could be saved by some other franchise which ends up becoming the next big thing. Monster Hunter is a new franchise that appeared out of the blue a few years ago without warning. There's every possibility something else could likewise appear out of nowhere and rescue the Vita. We can't count it out just yet. Miracles do happen.
In that highly unlikely situation, yes. Do you really think a new franchise like that going to happen out of the blue? I don't though I never said it wasn't possible. Your suggested miracle game has a lot stacked against it. Even Monster Hunter didn't stop DS, it only kept PSP relevant. Losing Monster Hunter is a big deal for Sony. For any game to help Vita in really meaningful way, it would have to have an even bigger social and cultural impact that Monster Hunter had and go up against a 3DS that now has Monster Hunter. That's asking a lot for one game.
Still, and to try to bring this discussion back on topic, Nintendo didn't include a right circle pad and the sky didn't fall. Again, I'm not arguing for or against it because the argument is pointless. It didn't happen and we all have to live with it. What did happen is that Nintendo still found a way to get Monster Hunter on 3DS.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: Uncle_Optimus on July 16, 2012, 01:10:33 AM
The important thing is that 3DS is getting Monster Hunter 4. The series is such a juggernaut in Japan that people will buy the Circle Pad Pro and the Circle Pad Pro XL just to play the game if they don't have it already. They made sure one of the most popular franchises in Japan is absolutely coming to their handheld. And it's being made with the hardware in mind. Even if Capcom ports the game to Vita, it will play better on 3DS.
Why wouldnt it play as well on the Vita? Vita has got the two sticks the MH fans seem to crave, a larger capacitive screen and a...back touch screen (actually I dont know what that one accomplishes). I am watching Capcom's announcements with great interest. I am guessing a big reason reason why MH Tri went to Wii and MH 4 went to 3ds is development cost...creating ground-up HD assets for such an expansive game when a suitably large audience on a cheaper dev platform were already available. That and/or money hats. Capcom is surely working on true HD MH assets so I do expect an eventual announcement of MH 4 Freedom Liberation or some such for Vita next year. Vita actually seems to have better western support, though perhaps TGS will show some strong Japanese titles.
On topic, I am giddy to see the 3ds XL + CPP XL Voltron. Besides girth comparisons, and All other complaints aside, it really floored me how Ugly the original was. I honestly couldnt beleive the news at first. Nyko however created a very nice alternative that Even included an extra battery for $30. http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/05/nyko-power-grip-pro-3ds/
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: xcwarrior on July 19, 2012, 07:41:56 AM
Most of the best games were on the NES, which has 0 circle pads and two face buttons.
The 3DSXL isn't missing a thing. And once it gets tested for HGH, expect the size to go back down for obvious reasons - it's juicing!
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: tendoboy1984 on July 19, 2012, 02:58:09 PM
Most of the best games were on the NES, which has 0 circle pads and two face buttons.
The 3DSXL isn't missing a thing. And once it gets tested for HGH, expect the size to go back down for obvious reasons - it's juicing!
NES = 2D 3DS = 3D (polygons)
There's a huge difference. 3D games require some form of analog control for character movement. Try playing a PS1 game with a D-pad...
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: oohhboy on July 19, 2012, 07:18:06 PM
*Cough*Mario 64DS*Cough*
It worked surprisingly well, but Mario 64 movement and look were separate from each other. One solution is to move the "Look" part of shooters to the pad and have move be digital like a reverse WASD on the ABXY buttons.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: pokepal148 on July 19, 2012, 08:46:50 PM
it isnt that simple at all. first off dual analog is far from an industry standard on handhelds. if a developer wants the second analog the circlepad pro is still there. the DS had no analog sticks and it has had great third party support. if it sells third parties will support it.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: Hey Einstein! on July 20, 2012, 06:42:34 AM
it isnt that simple at all. first off dual analog is far from an industry standard on handhelds. if a developer wants the second analog the circlepad pro is still there. the DS had no analog sticks and it has had great third party support. if it sells third parties will support it.
Spot on.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: DonnyKD on July 20, 2012, 10:33:36 AM
And by the way, putting two Circle Pads on the 3DS XL will once again alienate old ambassadors.
Ever heard of patches? The games can be patched to allow for an updated dual analog control scheme. And the addition of a second stick is just another OPTION for developers to use when designing their controls. Many games have customizeable controls, so it would be very easy to just give the player different control options to choose from.
Examples of games that give you optional control layouts include:
- Kid Icarus Uprising - GoldenEye 007 (Classic Controller Pro or Wii Remote) - Killzone 3 (DualShock or Move controller) - Resistance 3 (DualShock or Move Controller) - Smash Bros. Brawl (GameCube, Classic Controller, Wii Remote and/or Nunchuk) - DKC Returns (Wii Remote and/or Nunchuk) - NSMB Wii (Wii Remote and/or Nunchuk) - GTA 4 (Sixaxis motion controls, Classic button layout, Modern button layout) - most other shooters and racing games on the PS3 and Xbox 360
Hell, Kid Icarus Uprising even lets you use the Circle Pad Pro, yet you still can't use the second Circle Pad for camera movement!
Thank you, that has nothing to do with what I was talking about!
Who the hell would want to keep their old 3DS if there was a bigger one with two Circle Pads? A year after the original release?
it isnt that simple at all. first off dual analog is far from an industry standard on handhelds. if a developer wants the second analog the circlepad pro is still there. the DS had no analog sticks and it has had great third party support. if it sells third parties will support it.
Most games on the DS were 2D. There weren't many 3D games in the style of Super Mario 64, and for good reason. You can't make 360* movents with a D-pad (not as efficiently as with an analog stick).
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: pokepal148 on July 23, 2012, 06:26:33 PM
and the 3ds does. the developers that want twinsticks have the circle pad pro with added shoulder button action.(ironically bringing us closer to the traditional console experience then the vita in terms of control.) like i said if it sells well devs will come and now they can.
on the subject of being backwards nwr needs a nice mobile forum experience that actually works.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: NWR_insanolord on July 23, 2012, 06:42:02 PM
In my experience modern smartphones are perfectly capable of running the standard forums without issue. What kind of problems are you having?
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: pokepal148 on July 23, 2012, 07:56:49 PM
plenty. a pretty jittery message system for starters. the last message i wrote took over half an hour of problem solving. i can view posts fine but responding is such a hassle. it should work on phones with more juice but on mine it has been rather flinicy
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: kraken613 on August 27, 2012, 02:13:35 PM
Does anyone know if any stores have display units up? I just want to see this thing in person.
Title: Re: 3DS XL "Not big enough..."
Post by: vinniebrock on September 02, 2012, 05:25:59 PM
