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NWR Interactive => Podcast Discussion => Topic started by: Yoshidious on September 25, 2011, 12:02:39 PM

Title: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Yoshidious on September 25, 2011, 12:02:39 PM

Here's the story of a sword that ain't from around these parts.

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/rfn/27933

This weeks' episode starts with Jonny celebrating his long-delayed victory over Ganon in the original Legend of Zelda, plus an update on Final Fantasy 3/6 on Virtual Console and more progress in Castlevania: Lords of Shadow. James continues to be obsessed with Xenoblade Chronicles, but he has identified some minor flaws as well, even as Greg delivers early impressions of the game and Jonny prepares for his own overseas delivery. Jon has an interesting report on Dave Perry's Gaikai, the streaming service for game demos your PC shouldn't be able to run. Greg wraps up New Business with the overlooked Star Fox 64 3D multiplayer mode and his thoughts on one of WayForward's numerous 2011 releases, BloodRayne: Betrayal for PSN.

Around the bend, we reopen the mailbag for a torrent of emails. First, there's a pair of comments on Monster Hunter 4's importance for 3DS. We follow that with two distinct economic arguments relating to Xenoblade; these are sure to be controversial, but we had fun discussing them. We round out the segment with a grab bag of topics including Minecraft, bad controls, and The Grinder. Thanks to everyone who wrote in recently! You can send your email to the show with this handy contact form. Also, we're soliciting ideas for the next RetroActive in the forum thread for nominations.

Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: KDR_11k on September 25, 2011, 02:53:12 PM
I hope this will convince the remaining stragglers to finally get their damn copy of Xenoblade.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Halbred on September 25, 2011, 03:37:01 PM
I look forward to hearing Greg's thoughts on Bloodrayne. I'm enjoying it, but it's a frustrating grind at times.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Fiendlord_Timmay on September 25, 2011, 04:29:08 PM
Sorry for the off topic, but HOLY CRAP THE BILLS BEAT THE PATRIOTS!

Greg must be losing his **** right about now.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Bboy on September 25, 2011, 11:53:18 PM

Man, James, you make Xenoblade sound so cool, but I don't have the time or money to play it. Stop taunting me!

I'm glad I'm not the only one who wants to hear Greg talk about his team's crazy upset. Even though the Bears lost it's always good to see the Patriots lose.

Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Kytim89 on September 26, 2011, 12:09:19 AM
Speaking of Gamestop and piracy, checkout this picture: http://kotaku.com/5843702/would-you-like-to-pre+order-a-california-roll (http://kotaku.com/5843702/would-you-like-to-pre+order-a-california-roll)
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Plugabugz on September 26, 2011, 05:49:03 AM
Did The Greg (or anyone else) go to Eurogamer Expo this weekend?

The nintendo showing was poor shitty: ONLY Skyward Sword and Ocarina of Time 3D. And that was it. No other Wii/DS at the show at all.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: ejamer on September 26, 2011, 09:47:04 AM
Odd comment: when the question came up about a lack of "shooters" on Wii, did anyone else think of Shmups instead of FPS? No wonder I enjoy the Wii: FPS as a genre is probably my least favorite type of game, and rarely enters my mind at all.





Oh, and the discussion about piracy vs used games was quite entertaining.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Crimm on September 26, 2011, 09:55:14 AM
Right now I'm upset with its devotion to rather cheap difficulty in boss fights. I can keep attacking, knowing I'll get it eventually… or go grind for three levels and pummel them. For whatever reason two or three levels tend to make a huge difference.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: KDR_11k on September 26, 2011, 11:11:29 AM
The nice thing is that you don't have to grind much because you can go back, do quests and get experience that way while progressing the various locale storylines.


On Minecraft: Waiting for the "final version" shows that you don't have much experience with the development cycle many self-published indie devs are using. Such games can go through constant development with no real definition of Alpha or Beta (the switchover was completely arbitrary for Minecraft). AI War is already past version 5.0, they didn't call it a day after releasing 1.0.


Generally for objective based play you should probably look elsewhere. Minecraft is only now (less than two months before the finalization date) looking at objectives by adding leveling and quests. It's primarily designed for creativity with the survival part still fairly underdeveloped (consisting of a few easy monsters and a very short gear progression). The main alternative is Terraria which is being designed for combat and such primarily, including a huge arsenal of weapons (as opposed to the bow and sword MC gives you) and tons of enemies coming at various difficulty tiers plus bosses. For exploration and combat there's much more content in Terraria.


A new arrival at the scene is A Valley Without Wind from the AI War devs, that just hit Beta today. Seems to be all about exploration and combat with no digging element to it.


The main similarities are roughly:
Minecraft: Legend of Zelda 1 in 3D
Terraria: Metroid or Castlevania (with grappling hooks and jetpacks BTW)
AVWW: Zelda 2
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Crimm on September 26, 2011, 12:20:35 PM
At level 75 that quest experience doesn't quite go as far as it used to.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Kytim89 on September 26, 2011, 01:04:03 PM
There is a game called "Shadowgun" for the IOS systems and it looks like a console game. This is what has me worried about the 3DS and Nintendo in general. If the quality of a game like this can be sold cheaply then it is definently going to hurt Nintendo. 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aVttB25oPo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aVttB25oPo)
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Crimm on September 26, 2011, 01:07:53 PM
Looks like =! Plays like
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: ejamer on September 26, 2011, 04:15:57 PM
Also, assuming that Shadowgun actually does play well instead of just being another pretty piece of junk, that makes one game out of how many?


Until there are multiple releases every month that are competing with the experiences provided from the (home/portable) console space, then Nintendo/Sony/MS have little to worry about from iOS. The customers they are "losing" weren't going to be notable spenders in the gaming market anyway.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Ceric on September 26, 2011, 04:27:33 PM
No Connectivity plug.  I don't know you anymore :P:
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: KDR_11k on September 26, 2011, 04:55:10 PM
Gameloft has plenty of games that are like mediocre console games.

In addition to being hard to control the console like games are simply not as profitable as those cheapo flash-like games. They take like 20x as much to make and can only charge 5 bucks at most. Even then people will go "that's expensive, I'll wait for a price drop". While the pricing may be good for the consumer it doesn't allow the developer to invest much into a game unless it's a massive IAP moneysink.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Praefectia on September 26, 2011, 08:13:24 PM
What was that cross something url for the music podcast?  I thought he said crosstalk.com, but that's not it.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Shaymin on September 26, 2011, 09:01:03 PM
Crosstawk (http://www.crosstawk.com).
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on September 26, 2011, 09:51:04 PM
Quote from: Ceric on September 26, 2011, 04:27:33 PM
No Connectivity plug.  I don't know you anymore :P:

We record on Thursday, and at that time we weren't sure if Connectivity would be ready to launch over the weekend.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: broodwars on September 26, 2011, 10:12:56 PM
So where did you folks end up importing Xenoblade from? I tried going on Amazon, but all I can find there is the "Pre-order" placeholder page for Monado.  I wanted to hold on importing the game to give NoA time to come to their senses, but after listening to this episode I have to agree: It's too late.  NoA will never touch this game.

Just so I know, how much does it cost in U.S. dollars to buy an import copy of this game?
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Kytim89 on September 26, 2011, 10:18:28 PM
Since NoA has slapped me in the face with Operation Rainfall then I have cancelled my preorder for Skyward Sword and intend to buy that game used. Once the Xenoblade stock frenzy has subsided and Pandora's Tower and Last Story have been released in Europe then I will decide as to whether to get the game or cut my loses. I do not like the idea of moding my console to play games because I shouldn't have to and if Nintendo of America never does allow these games into America, I will remember it for the future. Lastly, I call for the resignation Reggie Fils-aimmee from the company. Hell, that chcik that told stories during E3 was much better than this guy.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Crimm on September 27, 2011, 12:37:36 AM
Quote from: broodwars on September 26, 2011, 10:12:56 PM
So where did you folks end up importing Xenoblade from? I tried going on Amazon, but all I can find there is the "Pre-order" placeholder page for Monado.  I wanted to hold on importing the game to give NoA time to come to their senses, but after listening to this episode I have to agree: It's too late.  NoA will never touch this game.

Just so I know, how much does it cost in U.S. dollars to buy an import copy of this game?


I bought it at zaavi.com
With shipping I paid $48.95
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: NeoStar9X on September 27, 2011, 01:25:29 AM
Wanted to play Xenoblade but really I can't be bothered to go the extra steps to import it now. Instead I did something else. I ordered a copy of Radiant Historia. I've heard good things about from other places and this podcast. I figure why not give it a shot. I had been meaning to check it out in the past. It has taken the place of Solatorobo as I feel that is shallower then I though it would be. Wanted something more. Hopefully it ships from Amazon.com later today (Tuesday) and I get it by Saturday if standard shipping goes out on time.

With me trying to get away from more FPS this should do a good job I hope. That should keep me busy until Zelda, Mario 3D Land, and Mario Kart 7.

As suggested I can only hope the seeming success Xenoblade, at least better then NoE expected,  is having might change Nintendo of America's mind on The Last Story. Of the two, I know people have said Xenoblade was better, I was looking forward more to The Last Story anyway. Even now after watching a LOT of video of Xenoblade and read up on it. Now that game could push me to import while Xenoblade couldn't make me make the final leap.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: NWR_Lindy on September 27, 2011, 05:57:28 AM
Yeah, the nVidia Tegra chips are going to change a lot of people's perceptions of what "cell phone gaming" can be.  Games are getting REALLY good and smartphones are getting REALLY powerful.

The only thing stopping smartphones from taking over handheld gaming is proper controls, and that isn't hard to add to a device.  Add a slide-out D-pad/button combo like the Xperia Play and a couple of shoulder buttons and you have a very capable gaming device (with a built-in touchscreen, no less).

You can also say what you will about the battery life of smartphones, but the 3DS doesn't have them beat in that department with its 4-hour lifespan.  Besides, it makes more sense to have charging cradles at work and at home for your phone (which you pretty much need to have with you at all times anyways) than it does to have the same for a 3DS (which is an optional entertainment device that you don't need.

Smartphones are a big threat to Nintendo's handheld dominance, and they're only getting bigger as their tech gets better.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Crimm on September 27, 2011, 12:36:35 PM
While I don't disagree with you Jon, precious few phones do actually have buttons. The Xperia (that name...) Play has those buttons but it is the exception.


I had the opportunity to play a very impressive looking cell phone FPS on a "next-gen" Android phone. While visually it was the superior of anything the 3DS has seen to date (although there are games in the pipe that look comparable) it tried to do dual sticks and virtual buttons. It was a horror show.


You can design games that work well on the cell phone platform, even traditional titles. Nobody is going to make a good FPS without buttons. Cell phone gaming becomes a real threat when they stay their lane. Make creative titles that utilize the hardware appropriately.




Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: KDR_11k on September 27, 2011, 12:43:34 PM
Quote from: NWR_Lindy on September 27, 2011, 05:57:28 AM
Yeah, the nVidia Tegra chips are going to change a lot of people's perceptions of what "cell phone gaming" can be.  Games are getting REALLY good and smartphones are getting REALLY powerful.

That's not going to help if devs cannot afford to use all that processing power. There's a reason modern games sell at 60$ a piece and still need to shift a few million copies to merely break even. The mentality on cellphones doesn't allow prices above 5-10$ and they're trending more towards selling the game for free and nickel-and-diming you with microtransactions.

BTW, the Xperia Play has shoulder buttons too. I got one a few days ago (it dropped to 290€ and I wanted to replace my shitty old nokia brick), now I'm trying to figure out a way to pay for Android apps without applying for a credit card. Google really doesn't care about Germany as a market. Apple has tons of payment options AND there are gift cards in every damn store you can think of but Google only accepts a few credit cards and that's it.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Ceric on September 27, 2011, 01:23:07 PM
Quote from: KDR_11k on September 27, 2011, 12:43:34 PM
Quote from: NWR_Lindy on September 27, 2011, 05:57:28 AM
Yeah, the nVidia Tegra chips are going to change a lot of people's perceptions of what "cell phone gaming" can be.  Games are getting REALLY good and smartphones are getting REALLY powerful.

That's not going to help if devs cannot afford to use all that processing power. There's a reason modern games sell at 60$ a piece and still need to shift a few million copies to merely break even. The mentality on cellphones doesn't allow prices above 5-10$ and they're trending more towards selling the game for free and nickel-and-diming you with microtransactions.

BTW, the Xperia Play has shoulder buttons too. I got one a few days ago (it dropped to 290€ and I wanted to replace my shitty old nokia brick), now I'm trying to figure out a way to pay for Android apps without applying for a credit card. Google really doesn't care about Germany as a market. Apple has tons of payment options AND there are gift cards in every damn store you can think of but Google only accepts a few credit cards and that's it.
Couldn't you get one of those reloadable Credit Card gift card things.  Then you wouldn't actually need to get a true credit card just remember your amount.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: lolmonade on September 27, 2011, 02:54:52 PM
My biggest issue is that it seems impossible to locate the gems out of the giant crap-pile that is the iOS market.  It's simple to find critically acclaimed games like Angry Birds (And its 10 different iterations) or Plants vs Zombies, but other than that I just don't see much coverage on mobile phone games, which makes it difficult to get a consensus on the games that are truly worth getting. 
 
I enjoyed the piracy vs used games discussion.  Game developers need to realize that the typical gamer is not going to pay full price for any game after a certain amount of time has passed, and tiered pricing shouldn't just apply to throw-away minigame collections and games based on tv shows.  If they are comparing used purchases to pirating, they're showing complete disdain towards their customers instead of getting to the root of the problem.  I would love to have paid for a brand new copy of Super Mario Galaxy a year ago, but I couldn't justify paying $50 for a game that had been out for 3 years, and it wouldn't be until just recently that they made a sharp price drop to $20.  Why not gradually reduce the price over the years? I would have gladly paid $30 last year for a copy of the game  (it's what I paid for it used), and instead of giving my $ to Nintendo it went to some guy off of Ebay.
 
Console developers pricing is too high a barrier to entry.  This is the true cause of the emergence and prevalence of used sales. Want my money for your game Mr. publisher?  Realize that to me as a gamer, the monetary value of buying the game to me decreases as time passes, whether you want to believe it or not, and I will find a means to obtain the game for a reasonable price if I wait for it, even if it means you are not compensated for my copy.
 
(Disclaimer: I do not advocate piracy except for out-of-print games that are not available for purchase from the developers/virtual console)
 
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Ceric on September 27, 2011, 03:28:45 PM
Games don't understand the model that comes so easy to video:

Movie Theater:
Release Price
6 Months:
Home Media (Less then a Family of Four to the Movie)
2-3 Years (Based on Popularity):
Pull for re-release or Bargain Price

What I really wanted to comment on is that I agree with lolmonade finding good Mobile Games is hard even with the reviews right there because there are so many.  Lucky my WinPhone requires Demos on all of them and that helps.  Though look at our own site, the general policy is to not review downloadable games.  Why?  Aaron/Megabyte has a post somewhere about this but it mostly boiled down to cost, manpower and monetary.

Its easy to argue that Nintendo's downloadable presence is vastly smaller but, even it doesn't have reviews for all of the content.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Kytim89 on September 27, 2011, 04:00:07 PM
I said it a while ago and everyone thought I was crazy but what Apple could do is create a Gameboy of their by taking the basic model of the iPhone and place two buttons and a d-pad onto it and charge maybe $99.99 to $129.99 for it and market it towards casual gamers. Add plenty of storage and then encourage developers for the IOS to put as many cheap games onto the system as possible.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Ceric on September 27, 2011, 04:02:27 PM
Quote from: Kytim89 on September 27, 2011, 04:00:07 PM
I said it a while ago and everyone thought I was crazy but what Apple could do is create a Gameboy of their by taking the basic model of the iPhone and place two buttons and a d-pad onto it and charge maybe $300 to $400 for it and market it towards casual gamers. Add plenty of storage and then encourage developers for the IOS to put as many cheap games onto the system as possible.
I adjusted your prices to account for the Apple Premium.
 
Edits:
Thats a little low to tell you the truth.  iPod Touch is $229 to $399 (http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_ipod/family/ipod_touch?mco=MTM3NTEyOTc) and if they were to even bother with a game system we're talking $399+ for the high end model to even make sense.  Think about all the moaning about a $250 3DS.  It was only $21 Smaller then the smallest of the iPod Touch Series which would be around the closest Apple Equivalent.  Though I could upgrade my 3DS to the same space as the Almost top line iPod Touch for $39.99 making it $289.99 so about $10 cheaper then the Almost Top Storage one.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Kytim89 on September 27, 2011, 04:31:45 PM
The price premium aside, if Apple really wanted to get Nintendo's backside hurting all they would have to do is create a cheapper version of their iPhone, or perhaps remove the phone portion from the device. They did something similar to this with the Ipod Shuffle, which was a poor man's iPod.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Ceric on September 27, 2011, 04:36:46 PM
Quote from: Kytim89 on September 27, 2011, 04:31:45 PM
...
remove the phone portion from the device. [in reference to iPhone]
...
They did... Its called the iPod Touch.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Kytim89 on September 27, 2011, 05:05:59 PM
Quote from: Ceric on September 27, 2011, 04:36:46 PM
Quote from: Kytim89 on September 27, 2011, 04:31:45 PM
...
remove the phone portion from the device. [in reference to iPhone]
...
They did... Its called the iPod Touch.

Slap two buttons and a d-pad onto it and call it a day.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: lolmonade on September 27, 2011, 06:27:34 PM
Quote from: Kytim89 on September 27, 2011, 05:05:59 PM
Quote from: Ceric on September 27, 2011, 04:36:46 PM
Quote from: Kytim89 on September 27, 2011, 04:31:45 PM
...
remove the phone portion from the device. [in reference to iPhone]
...
They did... Its called the iPod Touch.

Slap two buttons and a d-pad onto it and call it a day.

But the thing is that I could never envision Apple doing that.  That's why you encounter things like the iCade (http://www.ionaudio.com/products/details/icade).  Apple doesn't really care about the games, they care about selling iPod/iPhones.  It just so happens that mobile phone games are one of many features that Apple can tout to sell their hardware.

I can't see them selling a glorified iPod touch with physical buttons.  And I doubt current leadership is going to consider releasing a peripheral that the iPod touch/iPhone, as I would expect them to follow a very similar path that Steve Jobs had envisioned. 

Ceric also mentioned the complications with Apple's pricing.  The only Apple item reasonably priced is the Apple TV, and that's because it's meant to Trojan Horse you into purchasing Movies, tv shows, and music through the box.  I think it's more likely to see Apple offer iOS games playable through Apple TV than further invest in bolstering their mobile gaming with peripherals when their biggest market are casual gamers who probably wouldn't purchase them.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: jimwood27 on September 27, 2011, 09:21:25 PM
Phones are moving away from having any sort of input that isnt just touching the screen so I dont see that being a huge threat.  Apple will NEVER have actual buttons and d-pad on the iPhone/Touch so while the tech in the phones will continue to improve, they will not be capable of replicating buttons/pad.  The hardware will be very capable of having its own software that uses the touch in interesting ways but will never be able to do a Mario game as well as a 3DS.


Also, the App Store always gets put on some pedestal as a digital store done right but my experience has not been very rosy.  If the game/app isnt in the top 25 or featured, it is impossible to find unless you know exactly what you are looking for.  Maybe the cream rises to the top but its hard once the top has been established.  I dont find it much better than Nintendo's digital stores, to be honest.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Ceric on September 27, 2011, 11:07:21 PM
Steam is a better implementation but, a lot of that is Valve stirring the pot with features and sales. 
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: KDR_11k on September 28, 2011, 04:41:14 PM
Quote from: lolmonade on September 27, 2011, 02:54:52 PM
My biggest issue is that it seems impossible to locate the gems out of the giant crap-pile that is the iOS market.  It's simple to find critically acclaimed games like Angry Birds (And its 10 different iterations) or Plants vs Zombies, but other than that I just don't see much coverage on mobile phone games, which makes it difficult to get a consensus on the games that are truly worth getting. 

I follow TouchArcade for that, the forums there will cover practically anything worth playing. I'm still looking for an equivalent for Android phones though.

Quote from: Ceric on September 27, 2011, 11:07:21 PM
Steam is a better implementation but, a lot of that is Valve stirring the pot with features and sales. 

Steam is also a better implementation of an online gaming service with community features and all that. I remember a recent Giant Bombcast where they were blown away by all the features Steam offers even compared to something like Xbox Live (they mentioned the group feature which lets you join game specific groups and then have quick access to players in that group when it comes to sending game invites, it's a good way for finding people who have the game and like to play it even without friending them or anything). Steam is basically way ahead of anything offered on consoles. PSN Plus offers cloud uploads amounting to about 150MB? Steam does 1GB without a monthly fee.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Chocobo_Rider on September 29, 2011, 12:49:04 AM
Lindy-

I normally take anything that comes out of your mouth as either gospel truth or comedy gold, but I can't say that I see phone gaming becoming ... anything worth caring about... for some time. When people can cite more than 3 successful games, I'll start considering it.

everyone-

now time for a c-c-c-COMBO BREAKER!!! I mean... episode responses...

1. I keep out of the PC game... game... for exactly that "arms race" reason.  That's why console/platform gaming is so awesome.  The devs worry about the hardware, not us!!  Sadly, I think the markets are on the way to merging with things like the multiple SKUs of the PS3/60 or even the DSi.

2. Wayforward really impressed me with A Boy and His Blob.  I thought it was so well made that I will always pay attention to their releases in the future.

3. Some people are HD-whores.  I am an online co-op whore (yeaaa Monster Hunter!).  So, a StarFox w/ online co-op would be sooo amazing!!  And hey, I would play as Slippy! Slippy's the man!

4. Oh my god, we've spent the last X years complaining about not getting the "big" games on Nintendo platforms, and now some people are gonna complain about maybe not getting the most obscure stuff?!

This is why gamers have trouble getting respect in mainstream culture... we just sound like this guy (http://netbrawl.com/uploads/bd6f6a33b31ba5c71cbc9e8157404fca.jpg) to them.

Let's just say, based on the Nintendo audience, I have no worries that we'll always get the unique/interesting games.

5. As someone who just purchased a used PSP SOLELY to play old Monster Hunter games, I gotta say handheld really is very useful for that franchise.  I have already found myself taking the PSP anywhere I might get a free few minutes so that I can do that "one more" hunt.

6. I completely agreed with the "Xenoblade paradox" before this episode. Thanks for enlightening me. Also kinda nice to hear someone in gaming media take the stance that the gamer doesn't have responsibility to buy ("support") certain products.

7a. Nice discussion on the used game market.  I never thought it could be a GOOD thing for developers.  I will say this though: game companies shouldn't make their games so flappin' disposable if they don't want people trading them in!! I'm looking at you Madden, Street Fighter, and any game with a forthcoming "DLC included edition."

7b. Just to be clear, is the used game market completely legal?  I thought technically places like GameStop didn't have legal right to make those sales but that no game company would put their foot down about it.  Can anyone verify this? ... I think I might have heard that from David Jaffe though.  And he is a confirmed idiot so.... I probably shouldn't trust that source.


8. Don't worry, Lindy, I'm with ya on MH's camera.  I do wish you could remap some of the button placements, but the free camera really is ideal and when you take it away (like on the PSP) you have trouble.  This is why I can see why Capcom would really push for that 2nd analog stick fof MH4.  However, I think the virtual stick that while be on the 3DS' touchscreen should more than suffice.

9. I don't have much sympathy for someone looking for FPSs these days.  You can more or less throw a rock out the window and hit a FPS.  If the Wii's library of FPSs was not up to his liking, 100% of the alternative choices would have covered him.

Good call on RS2 though. Fantastic game... wish it could get a sequel =\  C'mon bearded cane, man! Make it happen!

Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Ax23000 on September 29, 2011, 02:56:39 AM
KDR_11k already touched on Minecraft, but I just wanted to echo his statement that you shouldn't expect a titanic shift in Minecraft's focus come release day in November.  Yes, they are adding some sort of goal to the game at some point before release, but it's likely to be a VERY loose goal.

Minecraft is about player driven goals.  You decide what you want to do and then you do it.  Notch and his small development team set-up the world and the way your character moves through that world, but it's up to you to decide what to do.  This isn't likely to change a whole lot at any point.

In other words, don't think of this game as Zelda.  It will never be Zelda.  A better Nintendo analog would be Animal Crossing.  Your loan to Tom Nook is a loose goal, but most players aren't overly concerned with it.  I know I never fully paid the guy off at least  ;D .  Whatever goal Notch gives Minecraft will likely be something along those lines.  Yeah, it's there, and you might do it some day...but it doesn't really drive the game.

When I play Minecraft I set myself goals.  When I first started it was all about finding diamonds, which are fairly rare.  This required a lot of spelunking and underground exploration.  Later I focused on finishing a massive fortress over-looking the sea.  Eventually I set-off from home across the water in a boat and founded a new base.  Then there was the time I built a portal to hell.  Or the time I downloaded the planes mod, built an airstrip and airplane and explored via sky.

In my latest adventure I'm off searching for a Mushroom biome.  So far I've crossed forests, climbed massive mountains, slogged through swamps and deserts.  I spent two days crossing an ocean, befriended a wolf, and most recently summoned a snow golem, who wandered around throwing snow balls.

My point with all this is that there's plenty to do in the game now, but if you don't like setting your own goals you shouldn't expect to find the game much more appealing come launch.

P.S. Terraria might be more your cup of tea if you want something closer to Zelda.  Like Minecraft, it involves a randomly generated world where you collect resources to craft items.  Unlike Minecraft, it has a ton of enemies and bosses.  Probably the best part of the game are the really cool items, which include everything from laser swords, to jet packs, to grappling hooks.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: KDR_11k on September 29, 2011, 01:20:24 PM
Also Minecraft is pretty good at creating interesting terrain to explore. I never really got into the creative part, the most I built was a basic house. I'm more of an optimizer, I'd build big castles if there was a gameplay need for that. As it is I built an effective archer tower and a place containing the crafting and storage stuff and that's it.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Ceric on September 29, 2011, 01:25:55 PM
Quote from: KDR_11k on September 29, 2011, 01:20:24 PM
Also Minecraft is pretty good at creating interesting terrain to explore. I never really got into the creative part, the most I built was a basic house. I'm more of an optimizer, I'd build big castles if there was a gameplay need for that. As it is I built an effective archer tower and a place containing the crafting and storage stuff and that's it.
I could just see your house in RL.

A media room with a mounted TV and Surround speakers mounted on the wall.  Computer with Wireless Keyboard and mouse with desk in the corner but a switch to put it on the big screen.  Garage for car.  Room with bed and 1 bathroom that links to the room and hallway. Kitchen.  Attic with floor.  With all the doors in such a way to optimize travel.  So the Garage door would line up with the Media room.  Kitchen door lineup with Room door.  Etc.

Done.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: NWR_Lindy on September 29, 2011, 08:42:50 PM
In terms of cell phones, I think it's incorrect to think that the way things are now are the way they're always going to be.  Not having proper control schemes and not having proper reviews of games are both solvable problems.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Kytim89 on September 29, 2011, 10:11:47 PM
Nintendo would be msart to partner with Valve and allow Steam intergration onto the Wii U. Nintendo could also contract Valve to build Nintendo an online system that would better attract third parties and consumers and at the same time offer a better online experience than its compeititors. Also, to me it would seems like a good idea for Nintendo reformat the Wii Shop channel into something similar to Steam.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Sundoulos on September 29, 2011, 10:26:14 PM
I've enjoyed playing Final Fantasy Tactics on my ipod touch...  There are definitely some quirky things about the controls, but they are mostly sufficient.   There are any number of DS-style games that would work well on a phone platform, I think.

 
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Chocobo_Rider on September 30, 2011, 12:22:14 AM
Quote from: NWR_Lindy on September 29, 2011, 08:42:50 PM
In terms of cell phones, I think it's incorrect to think that the way things are now are the way they're always going to be.  Not having proper control schemes and not having proper reviews of games are both solvable problems.

How about this: eventually someone will partner with someone, let's say Apple and a Sony, and release the "PSG" or "PlayStation Gala" (a type of apple AND an important event).  This device will be a PSV+ that makes phone calls and can download even crappier cheaper games.

I mean, the PSV will already have an option to contract with AT&T, so, I think this is the future for Sony.

In other words, I don't think cell phone games are going to take over, but I think the line between cell phone gaming and traditional handheld gaming will eventually disappear completely.

The only question that remains is how companies will deal with price expectations on software the way Iwata has discussed.  I am not looking forward to that "race to the bottom," but I do think mankind will find a way to make it work ... especially if there is money to be made, right? =)
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Ceric on September 30, 2011, 09:47:58 AM
N-Gage says Hi.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Chocobo_Rider on October 01, 2011, 12:48:30 PM
Quote from: Ceric on September 30, 2011, 09:47:58 AM
N-Gage says Hi.

N-Gage says hi, but oddly enough, only "idiotic design and timing" said hi back. =)
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: NWR_Lindy on October 01, 2011, 02:38:52 PM
I agree with NinSage...that line is going to be blurred.  We're already seeing the line between console and portable being blurred with PS3 and Vita.  The same thing will eventually happen with dedicated gaming handhelds and smartphones.  The handhelds are incorporating social networking, Netflix, and Skype, while smartphones are incorporating console-style games and control inputs.

We're moving closer and closer to the era of the all-in-one mobile uber-device.  We're not quite there yet, though.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Chocobo_Rider on October 01, 2011, 11:48:45 PM
Lindy-

I also think that, in the not too distant future, we won't have portables and consoles as much as portables and TV devices that display those portables on the big screen and use secondary controllers for local co-op.

Basically, it is exactly the Wii U model if the tablet controller were a 3DS.... and they certainly are fairly similar objects.

Throw in phone calls and bam... uber device.


You could still have AAA budget hogs and cheap interesting games in this model.  Prices and expectations would just have to be adjusted accordingly.

Think how awesome it would be if the Wii/DS library shared the same platform??!

... but perhaps I'm forgetting a fatal flaw in this concept?
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: KDR_11k on October 02, 2011, 07:35:22 AM
Quote from: Ceric on September 27, 2011, 04:02:27 PM
Edits:
Thats a little low to tell you the truth.  iPod Touch is $229 to $399 (http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_ipod/family/ipod_touch?mco=MTM3NTEyOTc) and if they were to even bother with a game system we're talking $399+ for the high end model to even make sense.  Think about all the moaning about a $250 3DS.  It was only $21 Smaller then the smallest of the iPod Touch Series which would be around the closest Apple Equivalent.  Though I could upgrade my 3DS to the same space as the Almost top line iPod Touch for $39.99 making it $289.99 so about $10 cheaper then the Almost Top Storage one.

The European situation is more funny. The 8GB model costs 190€ or so (but didn't get a 3rd gen upgrade, dunno about 4th) while the 32 GB costs 270€. The 3DS is 250€.

The downside to any iPod touch is the horrendous battery life, expect maybe two hours of gaming on a full charge.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 04, 2011, 02:18:17 PM
I get considerably more than that on my iPhone 4, and that's with the 3G draining the battery as well.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: TJ Spyke on November 02, 2011, 02:04:21 AM
Quote from: KDR_11k on October 02, 2011, 07:35:22 AM
Quote from: Ceric on September 27, 2011, 04:02:27 PM
Edits:
Thats a little low to tell you the truth.  iPod Touch is $229 to $399 (http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_ipod/family/ipod_touch?mco=MTM3NTEyOTc) and if they were to even bother with a game system we're talking $399+ for the high end model to even make sense.  Think about all the moaning about a $250 3DS.  It was only $21 Smaller then the smallest of the iPod Touch Series which would be around the closest Apple Equivalent.  Though I could upgrade my 3DS to the same space as the Almost top line iPod Touch for $39.99 making it $289.99 so about $10 cheaper then the Almost Top Storage one.

The European situation is more funny. The 8GB model costs 190€ or so (but didn't get a 3rd gen upgrade, dunno about 4th) while the 32 GB costs 270€. The 3DS is 250€.

The downside to any iPod touch is the horrendous battery life, expect maybe two hours of gaming on a full charge.
I get great battery life on my iPod Touch. I don't play games that often though (mostly just podcasts and music). I never have to worry anyways because when I am home I always have it plugged into my computer.

BTW, the iPod Touch starts at $199, not $229.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: Ceric on November 02, 2011, 10:00:44 AM
Quote from: TJ Spyke on November 02, 2011, 02:04:21 AM
Quote from: KDR_11k on October 02, 2011, 07:35:22 AM
Quote from: Ceric on September 27, 2011, 04:02:27 PM
Edits:
Thats a little low to tell you the truth.  iPod Touch is $229 to $399 (http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_ipod/family/ipod_touch?mco=MTM3NTEyOTc) and if they were to even bother with a game system we're talking $399+ for the high end model to even make sense.  Think about all the moaning about a $250 3DS.  It was only $21 Smaller then the smallest of the iPod Touch Series which would be around the closest Apple Equivalent.  Though I could upgrade my 3DS to the same space as the Almost top line iPod Touch for $39.99 making it $289.99 so about $10 cheaper then the Almost Top Storage one.

The European situation is more funny. The 8GB model costs 190€ or so (but didn't get a 3rd gen upgrade, dunno about 4th) while the 32 GB costs 270€. The 3DS is 250€.

The downside to any iPod touch is the horrendous battery life, expect maybe two hours of gaming on a full charge.
I get great battery life on my iPod Touch. I don't play games that often though (mostly just podcasts and music). I never have to worry anyways because when I am home I always have it plugged into my computer.

BTW, the iPod Touch starts at $199, not $229.
Now.
I had Apple's site opened in the other window when I wrote that. (Hence the link.)  They dropped the price like they normally do when they do there annual update if nothing has changed.  The site even says "Now starting at $199.00" indicating the price change.
Title: Re: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics
Post by: TJ Spyke on November 02, 2011, 06:47:52 PM
My bad, I quoted you without looking at the date of the post.