NWR Interactive => Podcast Discussion => Topic started by: Jonnyboy117 on June 25, 2010, 02:43:29 PM
Title: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on June 25, 2010, 02:43:29 PM
I'm very pleased to announce the six (yes, SIX) nominees for our next RetroActive feature. You pick the game, we play it, and everyone discusses it together on both the forums and Radio Free Nintendo.
Mother 3 English Translation Patch at http://mother3.fobby.net/ (http://mother3.fobby.net/)
Golden Sun 2: The Lost Age http://www.amazon.com/Golden-Sun-Lost-Game-Boy-Advance/dp/B00008KU9Z/ref=sr_1_1?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1277406625&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Golden-Sun-Lost-Game-Boy-Advance/dp/B00008KU9Z/ref=sr_1_1?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1277406625&sr=1-1) http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?product_id=26314 (http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?product_id=26314)
Sonic Advance 3 http://www.amazon.com/Sonic-Advance-3-Game-Boy/dp/B0001615P2/ref=sr_1_1?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1277406660&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Sonic-Advance-3-Game-Boy/dp/B0001615P2/ref=sr_1_1?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1277406660&sr=1-1) http://www.gamestop.com/browse/search.aspx?N=0&Ntk=TitleKeyword&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntt=sonic%20advance%203 (http://www.gamestop.com/browse/search.aspx?N=0&Ntk=TitleKeyword&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntt=sonic%20advance%203)
Mario Tennis: Power Tour http://www.amazon.com/Mario-Tennis-Power-Game-Boy-Advance/dp/B0009Z3MH4/ref=sr_1_1?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1277406687&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Mario-Tennis-Power-Game-Boy-Advance/dp/B0009Z3MH4/ref=sr_1_1?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1277406687&sr=1-1) http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?product_id=39384 (http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?product_id=39384)
Notes: - If Mother 3 is selected, we cannot help you find the game, only link to the English translation patch. - Mario Tennis might seem like an odd choice, but that's the game Stan Ferguson reviewed with a score of 10. It's a hybrid RPG/tennis game, developed by Camelot (who also made another nominee, Golden Sun: The Lost Age).
Title: Re: RetroActive #12 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: vudu on June 25, 2010, 02:50:36 PM
- If Mother 3 is selected, we cannot help you find the game, only link to the English translation patch.
- If Mother 3 is selected, I can help you find the game.
Title: Re: RetroActive #12 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: NWR_Karl on June 25, 2010, 02:52:41 PM
Keep in mind, folks, a vote for Mario Tennis is a vote to get Stan Ferguson BACK on Radio Free Nintendo. You know in your hearts how you must vote.
TEAM STAN.
Title: Re: RetroActive #12 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: broodwars on June 25, 2010, 02:54:11 PM
I voted for Mother 3, if only because I don't really care about any of the other games on the list and it could generate some nice discussion.
Title: Re: RetroActive #12 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: BeautifulShy on June 25, 2010, 03:05:25 PM
Going to vote for Golden Sun:The Lost Age since it is the only game of those that I have. Drill Dozer would be interesting to read about.
Title: Re: RetroActive #12 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: UncleBob on June 25, 2010, 03:08:31 PM
# Drill Dozer
Fun game. Dunno if I'd jump at the chance to play it again though.
# Pokemon Pinball Ruby/Sapphire
'meh.
# Golden Sun: The Lost Age (a.k.a. Golden Sun 2)
Don't have this and could never get through the first one... RPGs have to try really hard to keep my attention...
# Sonic Advance 3
'meh.
# Mario Tennis: Power Tour
I vote for this one.
# Mother 3 NO. While I understand the fact that there are semi-legitimate ways to play though this game, I highly doubt the majority of the people will care about any of those. Granted, I highly doubt post people did for Metroid II... Basically, if this one gets picked, there's a 100% chance I will not participate - and I'm sure there's a few others like me. :(
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Crimm on June 25, 2010, 03:19:36 PM
I really like Golden Sun, and I'm partially through a replay of the first title. If I think 2 is going to make a run at it I'll blitz through 1 to import my stuff.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Halbred on June 25, 2010, 03:30:55 PM
Golden Sun? PUKE.
I'm going with Pokemon because it's Pokemon, and I have a genuine problem.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Killer_Man_Jaro on June 25, 2010, 04:26:53 PM
Weird choices for the poll, in my view... but I digress. The only one of those I own is Golden Sun: The Lost Age, but my cartridge has gone walkabout, which is a problem. I might vote for Mother 3, although I'll have to look into alternative methods of playing it if I do.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Shaymin on June 25, 2010, 08:12:55 PM
Drill Dozer to keep it alive, and because it's the rarest of animals on this list.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 25, 2010, 10:19:26 PM
No on Mother 3. A game that requires people to import from Japan is reason enough not to include it (pricey to import it), add in that you have to download a translation (and likely violate copyright law if you try and alter the gamecode to translate it) is another. The only other option is 100% illegal (downloading a ROM of the game).
Since I don't have a GBA and the DSi has no GBA slot, I will likely be sitting this one out unless I can gt a phat DS (which I plan to do eventually). If I am able to get a way to legally play GBA games, I would want to play and talk about Pokemon Pinball: Ruby & Sapphire; if not, I would like to hear RFN discuss Golden Sun: The Lost Age.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 25, 2010, 10:34:18 PM
If Mario Tennis wins, I promise to go on long rants about how much worse it is than the Game Boy Color one.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: BeautifulShy on June 25, 2010, 10:42:39 PM
You could get a Game Boy Player TJ. It does play all GBA games as well as GB and GBC games.:)
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Mop it up on June 25, 2010, 10:43:57 PM
I was going to say that these seem like strange choices, but then I remembered that few notable games were released on the GBA.
If Mario Tennis wins, I promise to go on long rants about how much worse it is than the Game Boy Color one.
Is it really? I haven't played the GBA one, but I have the GBC one and thought it was okay. I might actually vote for it, because I plan to get it at some point as a part of my goal to own all Mario games.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: jrlibrarian on June 26, 2010, 02:55:32 PM
I won't be able to participate in this, as I have absolutely no money in my budget for games right now, and I don't have any of these. However, I will vote for Mario Tennis because, like Karl, I want Stan back on RFN.
TEAM STAN
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: NWR_Neal on June 26, 2010, 03:20:34 PM
I'm torn. I've always wanted to play Drill Dozer, but I really loved Mother 3 and would love to see the RFN crew be forced to play it.
I'm going with my gut...
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: mac<censored> on June 26, 2010, 03:38:27 PM
Mother 3 is the only choice which is in the least bit interesting...
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 27, 2010, 01:18:21 AM
I was going to say that these seem like strange choices, but then I remembered that few notable games were released on the GBA.
You really think that? You may not have liked a lot of them, but the GBA had tons of notable games.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on June 27, 2010, 06:08:58 AM
I for one have no interest in playing Golden Sun: The Lost Age shortly before the DS Golden Sun game comes out. Also, I agree that proposing Mother 3 is a foolhardy idea--there's no legitimate way to own it, everyone will vote for it because it's the cool thing to do online, and then no one will play / talk about it in the forums.
Sonic Advance 3 was the quirkiest of the trilogy, and I'd be interested in hearing what the crew thinks of the various controls for the character team-ups. Jonny says Sonic Colors for the DS is the first Sonic game he has a strong interest in, but I'm not sure how many of the Dimps portable Sonic games he's tried out.... Drill Dozer is super-awesome, but I played a good portion of it recently and wouldn't want to revisit it right now.
P.S.: How the hell did two Camelot games wind up on this list?!
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: KDR_11k on June 28, 2010, 04:27:56 AM
Wait, you have Mother 3, a game you have to pirate to play in there but no Ninja Five-O? At least NFO can be bought legally and played.
Seriously, disqualify Mother 3, you can't legally get that game and play it in English.
If you want a game you can reasonably get take Boktai 1 or 2 (that had TONS of surplus stock in stores here so it should be easy to find cheaply), since most people haven't played that it'd probably be something interesting and new to delve into.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: SouthFork on June 28, 2010, 09:57:20 AM
Oh Young Plumber don't you see that the reason people would want to play Golden Sun is to get ready for the new one. Kinda like re-watching Police Academy 4 before part 5 came out.
Reason 2: It's cheap and easy to find.
Reason 3: We all need a little sunshine to brighten our day.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: gojira on June 28, 2010, 12:28:17 PM
At first I wasn't too enamored with the line up. I heard the Pokemon Pinball games are good, but they've never excited me. I remember loving Golden Sun, but I have no desire to play through a RPG right now. I don't care for Sonic games. And Mother 3 has never interested me at all. So at first I voted for Drill Dozer because I really enjoy the game (although my rumble is going out). But then I ended up on Mario Tennis. I never played any Mario Tennis, and the RPG side of it sounds interesting.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: AV on June 28, 2010, 01:06:01 PM
i got bored of drill dozer after like the 3rd mission. the gimmick was ok, but not something to really sustain it.
Mother 3 seems really interesting.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on June 28, 2010, 02:59:40 PM
Wait, you have Mother 3, a game you have to pirate to play in there but no Ninja Five-O? At least NFO can be bought legally and played.
Seriously, disqualify Mother 3, you can't legally get that game and play it in English.
If you want a game you can reasonably get take Boktai 1 or 2 (that had TONS of surplus stock in stores here so it should be easy to find cheaply), since most people haven't played that it'd probably be something interesting and new to delve into.
I want to respond to all three of your points. First, Ninja Five-O is prohibitively expensive to acquire in cartridge form, and as an action game, it is not well-suited for emulators. Otherwise, it would be the perfect game for RetroActive, but I have to consider availability.
Second, it is legal to import Mother 3 from Japan, and it is almost certainly legal to hack your own copy with an English translation patch, or else play through the game using a translation guide. Yes, I am aware that most people will not go to that much trouble and will take the easier route of piracy. While I do not condone any kind of piracy in general, I personally would not feel guilty about playing Mother 3 via emulation considering it has never been released outside Japan. If Nintendo ever releases it in the West, I will be first in line (well maybe second, after the Starmen fanatics) to pay for my own copy in English. We have seen no indication whatsoever that Nintendo has any intention of doing so. If my choice is between emulating a game or never playing it at all, I am willing to consider the former as a special case. I thought there might be enough RFN listeners who agree that it would be worthwhile including Mother 3 on this list. Of course, some people will disagree, and you are free to express that opinion through your vote as well as here in the comments. But I will not disqualify it from the poll. You are factually incorrect on these three key statements: you do NOT have to pirate the game, you CAN legally acquire the game, and you CAN legally play it in English.
On the subject of Boktai, I have long planned to include Lunar Knights in the DS poll and thus chose to omit its predecessors from the GBA poll.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: KDR_11k on June 28, 2010, 03:25:51 PM
The translation is a derivative work of Mother 3 and thus copyright infringing anyway.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: NWR_Neal on June 28, 2010, 03:58:18 PM
The translation is a derivative work of Mother 3 and thus copyright infringing anyway.
Has Nintendo shut it down? Obviously it doesn't mean anything to them that it exists.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on June 28, 2010, 05:05:11 PM
KDR, I have no idea whether you're correct about the "derivative work" definition, but it is not illegal to possess or interact with a copyright-infringing product.
Edit: Here's a note from the translators' FAQ:
Quote
You guys rock. I wish I could help or donate or something! The best way to show your support is to buy an actual copy of the Japanese game, from here (http://www.play-asia.com/SOap-23-83-2u8w-71-67-49-en-15-mother+3-84-j-70-13ba.html) or here (http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/AGB-P-A3UJ.html) if possible, but places have been running out of stock lately, so it might be too late now. If that’s not an option, buying the two MOTHER 3 soundtracks on iTunes (http://www.apple.com/search/ipoditunes/?q=mother3) or an official MOTHER 3 shirt (http://www.the-king-of-games.com/english/shop/index.php?mode=catalog_list&type=series&series_id=24) would be another cool way to show your support. There’s always MOTHER 1+2 (http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-67-49-en-70-16oc.html), too. These are all tiny little ways to actually show Nintendo your support for the series.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: NWR_Karl on June 28, 2010, 06:06:46 PM
All of this Mother 3 talk is irrelevant, anyway, since TEAM STAN is clearly making its voice heard. Keep it moving!
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: vudu on June 28, 2010, 06:52:06 PM
I have a feeling Karl is abusing the system.
It's not going to be a great discussion when the regular RFN crew is forced to talk about a tennis game by themselves because Stan didn't show and everyone who voted TEAM STAN doesn't play the game.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: nickmitch on June 28, 2010, 06:56:48 PM
Without a written statement from Stan, Mother 3 is the only choice.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: jrlibrarian on June 28, 2010, 07:08:25 PM
It's not going to be a great discussion when the regular RFN crew is forced to talk about a tennis game by themselves because Stan didn't show and everyone who voted TEAM STAN doesn't play the game.
Whichever game is chosen, whether it be Mario Tennis or Mother 3, I will do my best to play it.
Stan, you better show up for RFN if Tennis wins, however.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Jet Pilot on June 28, 2010, 07:59:23 PM
I have to say that Mother 3 is a terrible choice. Listing this game in the poll does nothing other than condone illegal game piracy.
Regardless of whether or not the translation is a copyright infringement (probably not), the fact that the only way to play this game in English is via a pirated ROM means that -- should this game win -- NWR will be asking its users to obtain a pirated copy of the game via illegal download. Not only is that opening the users up to legal liability, but possibly the website was well. Let's stick to legitimate games please, John.
I voted for Drill Dozer because it's an interesting game that you don't hear about much and it's not a choice that encourages piracy.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: vudu on June 28, 2010, 08:10:21 PM
As Jonny said, you're free to play Mother 3 on an original Japanese cartridge using a translation guide. If you choose to play a pirated ROM it's between you and your conscience.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: UncleBob on June 28, 2010, 08:23:11 PM
As Jonny said, you're free to play Mother 3 on an original Japanese cartridge using a translation guide. If you choose to play a pirated ROM it's between you and your conscience.
I think the issue here is that the idea of RetroActive was to pick older games that are reasonably easy to obtain.
To expect people to import a Japanese-only game, then either learn Japanese or have the equipment to copy the GBA cartridge in order to install the translation patch... it's above and beyond.
No to Mother 3.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: noname2200 on June 28, 2010, 10:05:18 PM
Now I want to pick Mother 3 just for lulz...
Went with Golden Sun, primarily because it's the only one on the list that I own. I haven't played it since its release either, so it'll be pretty fresh too. All I remember was "whoa...big world now, huh?"
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: mac<censored> on June 28, 2010, 10:07:23 PM
Man, what a bunch of wimps...
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 28, 2010, 10:08:16 PM
I went ahead and voted for Mario Tennis because I think I still have it around here somewhere and it'd be interesting to see if I'd still be as disappointed by it now as I was originally.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: RABicle on June 29, 2010, 02:22:06 AM
Mario Tennis is amazing but vudu someone is blackmailing me into voting for Mother 3 Maybe if someone can also balckmail me in being able to play it somehow and like I can use some device I own to play it.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Jet Pilot on June 29, 2010, 08:37:03 PM
As Jonny said, you're free to play Mother 3 on an original Japanese cartridge using a translation guide. If you choose to play a pirated ROM it's between you and your conscience.
I think the issue here is that the idea of RetroActive was to pick older games that are reasonably easy to obtain.
To expect people to import a Japanese-only game, then either learn Japanese or have the equipment to copy the GBA cartridge in order to install the translation patch... it's above and beyond.
No to Mother 3.
This is another very valid point.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: NWR_Neal on June 29, 2010, 10:56:47 PM
I think Mother 3 is a fantastic game and I really think everyone who's interested in Nintendo games should play it. Piracy schmiracy. Nintendo ain't publishing this gem in North America and those die-hards made a damn good translation patch. It's the only way English speakers will be able to fully understand the game.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 29, 2010, 11:26:12 PM
Piracy is not any less illegal or immoral just because it's not released here. There was no reason to include a game that is not possible to get without importing (and then requiring you to either have a fan translation guide ready or illegally tamper with the game itself) or illegally download the ROM to play. I want Nintendo to release the game too, but that doesn't matter. I honestly don't care which other game wins the poll, I support any of the first five picks.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Mop it up on June 30, 2010, 12:18:45 AM
As Jonny said, you're free to play Mother 3 on an original Japanese cartridge using a translation guide. If you choose to play a pirated ROM it's between you and your conscience.
I think the issue here is that the idea of RetroActive was to pick older games that are reasonably easy to obtain.
To expect people to import a Japanese-only game, then either learn Japanese or have the equipment to copy the GBA cartridge in order to install the translation patch... it's above and beyond.
No to Mother 3.
This is another very valid point.
Agreed. It isn't a RetroActive if no one has played it before.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: vudu on June 30, 2010, 10:14:53 AM
Agreed. It isn't a RetroActive if no one has played it before.
Wrong. RetroActive is a way to discover old games that you've never played before.
Mother 3 is four years old and very few people here have played it. It's a perfect candidate.
... and to give people some experience with importing, finding fan translations, etc., in a supportive group environment.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Crimm on June 30, 2010, 11:31:10 AM
You're all dense. Games are eliminated because of difficulty obtaining them. Ease of acquisition is a determining factor in candidacy, but it is not part of the mission statement.
I don't think Mother 3 is a great candidate personally, not because everyone playing it will be using pirated copies. It is a concern. However Jonathan makes the candidate lists so in the end that is his discretion.
I think its a bad candidate because this is the GBA retrospective, and there is nothing "retrospective" about a game that was released postmortem and in reality was never released at all. There are other, more important, games in the GBA library. However, that is my personal opinion. It extends to games like Mario Tennis, which is really only famous because of an absurd review.
Honestly, I'd rather we dictate from on high the games we're going to do. However, we don't.
There. That's as official as you're going to get regarding the goals of Retroactive.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: UncleBob on June 30, 2010, 11:58:39 AM
I just hope the site doesn't lose any professional relationships by, basically, endorsing the use of illegal ROMs and emulation.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: mac<censored> on June 30, 2010, 12:01:38 PM
I just hope the site doesn't lose any professional relationships by, basically, endorsing the use of illegal ROMs and emulation.
There is no need to do so, so it's not an issue.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: UncleBob on June 30, 2010, 12:21:47 PM
We can all pretend that the ten or so participants in Retroactive are going to legitimately import a copy of the game, then learn Japanese, have a translation guide handy or have the equipment to rip their own ROM and apply the translation patch.
Well, maybe you can pretend that much. My imagination stops at unicorns and fairy dust.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Killer_Man_Jaro on June 30, 2010, 01:15:09 PM
Honestly, I'd rather we dictate from on high the games we're going to do. However, we don't.
That's fair enough. After all, you are agreeing to pay for each poll-winning title, so I suppose it is fair to say that you should be able to choose what you're spending your money on.
If you feel that strongly about it, James, you could tamper with the poll and switch out one of the games for The Minish Cap. :)
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: NWR_Karl on June 30, 2010, 01:22:33 PM
I find it oddly tickling that people actually give this much of a **** about RetroActive.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Crimm on June 30, 2010, 01:46:11 PM
Seriously. I think everyone thinks they know THE GAME we should play. For example I know, solid inarguable fact, that we should be playing Spyro Kart Racer. It defined an era!
(I hope that game doesn't actually exist)
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 30, 2010, 03:24:01 PM
I can't speak for others, but RetroActive is usually my favorite part of the RFN podcast. The discussion is also better if the game picked is one that people can reasonably get. It's not reasonable to expect people to get a Japanese-only GBA game, I think it's a safe bet that very few people would actually be able to participate if Mother 3 wins.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: BeautifulShy on June 30, 2010, 05:41:25 PM
I find it oddly tickling that people actually give this much of a **** about RetroActive.
For me it is an opportunity to play a game with the rest if the forum. Other than new releases or online games we don't really do that. After a big release the forum goes back to other things than playing games and talking about them so Retroactive gives us another chance to play a game together.
Oh if Mother 3 gets picked I don't think there is going to be many people talking about it.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Mop it up on June 30, 2010, 06:14:10 PM
Honestly, I'd rather we dictate from on high the games we're going to do. However, we don't.
If you feel that strongly about it, James, you could tamper with the poll and switch out one of the games for The Minish Cap. :)
That might not be such a bad idea, since I actually own a copy of that game.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: NWR_Neal on July 01, 2010, 03:04:58 AM
C'mon guys. Could it be worse than Ninja Spirit?
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Crimm on July 01, 2010, 03:09:02 AM
I still need to go back and ban everyone responsible for that game.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: TJ Spyke on July 01, 2010, 10:55:05 AM
Neal, I think so. People might have more to say, but fewer people would be saying anything about the game (you might have people who have never played the game commenting.
I can say I never voted for Ninja Spirit, so don't blame me.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: vudu on July 01, 2010, 12:09:08 PM
Ninja Spirit was totally my bad. I've apologized for it on numerous occasions.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: NWR_Neal on July 01, 2010, 01:49:46 PM
I'll forgive you, vudu. That is, as long as you vote for the best game on this list.
That game is, naturally, Mother 3. :)
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: vudu on July 01, 2010, 01:59:23 PM
****, man. I was the first person to vote for Mother 3. ;D
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: NWR_Neal on July 01, 2010, 03:44:45 PM
Then we're cool. More than cool, in fact. :)
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Mop it up on July 01, 2010, 07:01:09 PM
If the staff wants to play and chat about Mother 3, they should find some other excuse to do so. RetroActive is a community-driven feature and should serve it as best it can.
(ED: Meant to quote and accidentally hit edit. No changes were saved.)
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: BeautifulShy on July 01, 2010, 07:26:27 PM
If the staff wants to play and chat about Mother 3, they should find some other excuse to do so. RetroActive is a community-driven feature and should serve it as best it can.
Agreed.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: vudu on July 01, 2010, 07:38:57 PM
People might have more to say, but fewer people would be saying anything about the game (you might have people who have never played the game commenting.
If the staff wants to play and chat about Mother 3, they should find some other excuse to do so. RetroActive is a community-driven feature and should serve it as best it can.
I think you guys should maybe wait to voice your opinion until after the results are in. You may just be in the minority here.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: NWR_Neal on July 01, 2010, 07:53:47 PM
Well, RetroActive is kind of an RFN feature, so I'm just a community members like you guys in this case. I have no sway over this at all.
I said it before, and I'll say it again: Mother 3 is a freaking awesome game. I'd love to see more people play it. I've already played the game, and told members of the staff (and maybe the forums) how much I enjoyed it. I'd like to go and play it again, and I'd also like to see more people play it. It's a very good game.
Also, the votes are what matters, and there's a lot more people voting than the staff members.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Halbred on July 01, 2010, 08:12:20 PM
I guess I'm just unsure of how to get it. Clearly, I'm not importing anything. Not gonna happen.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: vudu on July 01, 2010, 08:33:03 PM
Don't worry--we look after our own around here. ;)
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: UncleBob on July 02, 2010, 12:23:57 AM
If the staff wants to play and chat about Mother 3, they should find some other excuse to do so. RetroActive is a community-driven feature and should serve it as best it can.
This is why we have a poll! The people will decide whether this game is a worthy nominee.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: UncleBob on July 04, 2010, 03:08:37 PM
(ED: Meant to quote and accidentally hit edit. No changes were saved.)
You know, I find myself doing that occasionally. I think it's because the "Edit Post" icon is in the bottom corner where most forums have the "Quick Quote this post" button..
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: NWR_Neal on July 05, 2010, 02:29:26 PM
I might add that I've been telling members of the staff for more than a year that Mother 3 is worth their time. I don't think anyone played it, so I guess no one's chomping at the bit to check it out.
We'll find out what the popular vote is by Thursday.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: UncleBob on July 06, 2010, 07:42:14 PM
Celebrate Piracy - Vote for Mother 3 now!
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Patchkid15 on July 06, 2010, 07:50:55 PM
I have a feeling this will be another poll with some very close ties. Seeing how most are games i have never played, i am looking forward to the results
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Pandareus on July 07, 2010, 12:47:51 PM
I just voted for Drill Dozer after seeing it's still being sold on Amazon.ca (kind of expensive, but it beats paying amazon.com's import fee ).
I thought Pulseman was alright, ran out of steam really early, but I'm still interested to see what the Pokémon guys can do when it comes to action games.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Peachylala on July 07, 2010, 04:05:49 PM
Drill Dozer is loads better then Pulseman. WAY BETTER.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on July 07, 2010, 11:08:22 PM
Drill Dozer is loads better then Pulseman. WAY BETTER.
I'll agree with that statement.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Crimm on July 08, 2010, 01:53:52 PM
As it should be, it's a decade newer.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: NWR_Neal on July 08, 2010, 03:04:25 PM
A winner is Mother 3...by a freaking landslide.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: BeautifulShy on July 08, 2010, 03:10:53 PM
Lets see of those 24 show up to talk about it.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: TJ Spyke on July 08, 2010, 03:14:18 PM
And I bet almost none of those people have played or will play the game and very few will actually be able to discuss it. I hope I am wrong, but I think this discussion will be even worse than the Ninja Spirit one. I think this also shows that RetroActive should not include games that were never even released in English and can't be played in English without resorting to illegal activities.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: broodwars on July 08, 2010, 03:16:40 PM
- If Mother 3 is selected, we cannot help you find the game, only link to the English translation patch.
- If Mother 3 is selected, I can help you find the game.
Just throwing this out there again. Check your PMs
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: UncleBob on July 08, 2010, 05:40:25 PM
Also, it's possible NoA actually did cover themselves legally in regards to Mother 3, even if they had no intent to ever release it.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: NWR_Neal on July 08, 2010, 06:09:14 PM
Can't wait to pull this game out for a spin. I have the fangamer strategy guide thing if anyone gets stumped and wants me to refer to its wonderful colored goodness.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: vudu on July 08, 2010, 06:17:48 PM
Here's the Starmen.net walkthrough in case anyone wants it. (http://walkthrough.starmen.net/mother3/) I skimmed through it a long time ago and it seems pretty through.
I started playing Mother 3 a few days ago after it became apparent it was going to win the poll. I just finished chapter 1 (about 4 hours in) and while it starts out a bit slow, it's wonderfully created. The story is about as heartbreaking as a 16-bit game can get and the translation is top-notch.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: broodwars on July 08, 2010, 06:29:18 PM
I must admit to being shocked that a quick visit to Starmen.net did not turn up a Front Page story or forum thread about either this poll starting or Mother 3 winning. :P:
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: vudu on July 08, 2010, 06:34:18 PM
I considered visiting the Starmen forums to recruit help for this poll, but it wasn't necessary.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Mop it up on July 08, 2010, 06:38:09 PM
The 21 (or 22) listed on the Staff page, plus me and vudu... that leaves you 1-2 short?
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Mop it up on July 08, 2010, 07:52:44 PM
Hee hee, I think I counted Pale twice, as staff and admin. He's double the staffer you all are! Why can't the lot of you stick with either your forum names or real names? :P
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: vudu on July 08, 2010, 07:57:09 PM
Pale has made it perfectly clear that UB and I are not staff. Nor would we want to be--we still enjoy these forums for the most part!
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Mop it up on July 08, 2010, 08:34:10 PM
The forum is a pretty large part of the site, so I consider you just as much staff as the rest of them.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Stratos on July 08, 2010, 09:55:12 PM
If this were a school then the 'staff' would be teachers and Vudu and Unclebob would be a combination of custodian and security with a dose of hall monitor/teachers aid for good measure.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Crimm on July 08, 2010, 10:18:33 PM
The 21 (or 22) listed on the Staff page, plus me and vudu... that leaves you 1-2 short?
Greybrick was hired today, yes.
I hate to be nosey, but do you guys get paid to work for NWR? If not, how do you keep this site going?
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: TJ Spyke on July 08, 2010, 10:31:32 PM
Unless something has changed, they do not get paid (except the swag they get sent from publishers). Site costs are paid for by stuff like ads on the site.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Stratos on July 08, 2010, 10:42:46 PM
NWR is one of the last quality not-for-profit gaming news sites. Most everything else out there is either a blog or has a goal to turn a profit. All the people here just volunteer for the passion of it.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: UncleBob on July 08, 2010, 11:02:44 PM
True, but I'm wagering that the number of votes for Mother 3 won't exceed the number of staffers.
Votes: 24 NWR Staffers: 25
I'd be happy if the 24 voters took pictures of them, holding their Mother 3 cartridge, with their screen name showing. ;)
The day that Nintendo of America gives a damn about the Earthbound fanbase and brings over any Mother game (either Earthbound on VC or Mother 3), I'll be happy to do that. Until then, screw them. Yeah, I'm getting a download copy. If Nintendo wants my money, they can bring the game over here so I can buy it.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on July 09, 2010, 01:46:13 AM
I stubbornly stuck with my Sonic Advance 3 vote and am fine with that. I'd say it was unfair to offer two Camelot games, thereby splitting the vote, except Mother 3 still would have won. I just hope voters have posts in the Mother 3 RetroActive thread to back up their votes.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Crimm on July 09, 2010, 09:43:59 AM
No, we do not get paid and often have to cover our own expenses. Yes, we do get some schwag but much less than you think and certainly not enough to make the work we put in "worth it." Yes, ad revenue is how we cover site expenses. No, even as staff I did not vote for Mother 3 (Golden Sun: The Lost Age). Yes, Earthbound is a massively overrated game with a tiny fanbase...wait what? Yes, I want to see the voters for each game participate. No, they won't.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: broodwars on July 09, 2010, 10:31:08 AM
Yes, Earthbound is a massively overrated game with a tiny fanbase...wait what?
I just really don't understand Nintendo of America with regards to the "Mother" franchise. They released one game on the SNES in the day when RPGs were an extremely niche market, and they just assumed the series would never sell again. The DS market would have been a perfect place to try again, but they'd rather bring out mass market hits like Glory of Heracles. I just don't get it.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Crimm on July 09, 2010, 10:40:25 AM
I'm willing to bet Herelces sold more copies in Japan than Mother 3. I'm just saying.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: NWR_Neal on July 09, 2010, 01:36:25 PM
I'd like to raise the point that the runner-up, Mario Tennis, probably had the same ratio of voters who wouldn't play the game if it won. Most people probably voted for that so they could see Stan come back.
Also, yea, Earthbound for SNES is way overrated. Quirky, yes, but I don't think it's a great game. Mother 3, on the other hand, is a whole lot better.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Crimm on July 09, 2010, 03:52:11 PM
I'd point out that I've said that about every game. Not always in the forums.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: TJ Spyke on July 09, 2010, 05:14:53 PM
If the game I vote for wins, I always make sure to comment in the official thread.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: vudu on July 09, 2010, 05:19:34 PM
If this were a school then the 'staff' would be teachers and Vudu and Unclebob would be a combination of custodian and security with a dose of hall monitor/teachers aid for good measure.
I love this analogy.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: noname2200 on July 09, 2010, 07:00:25 PM
I'm guessing the vote was much closer last Thursday, because this wasn't all that close!
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: MegaByte on July 09, 2010, 07:02:21 PM
It was pretty much never close.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: noname2200 on July 09, 2010, 07:04:18 PM
Mother 3 surged to a big lead and never let up. I think Mario Tennis may have had an early edge thanks to the Stan Fans, but that was it.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: TJ Spyke on July 10, 2010, 12:30:32 AM
I wonder if some people were delusional and thought that you guys discussing it on RFN would have any influence on Nintendo.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: vudu on July 10, 2010, 10:11:12 AM
It's more likely that many of us just want to play Mother 3 more than the other games on the list.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Sundoulos on July 10, 2010, 12:29:23 PM
Well, given the disparity between the long history of preferences voiced on RFN (about game advertising, VC, WiiWare, the storage solution, friend codes, the lack quality on-line offerings, the failure to link VC and WiiWare purchases to user accounts instead of Wii hardware, etc.) and what Nintendo actually does, I'd say that to any loyal RFN listeners it's clear that Nintendo isn't paying attention. :)
Frankly, I love Nintendo as much as the next gamer, and for that reason, I do wish they would start address some of our concerns in a more timely manner.
I didn't vote for Mother 3, but I'm interested to hear what people have to say about it. I only briefly played Earthbound, so I'm not overly familiar with the series.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on July 10, 2010, 01:54:44 PM
At one point within the first couple days of the poll (during which about 50% of the total votes were cast), Mario Tennis was winning by one or two votes. After that, Mother 3 pulled ahead and kept increasing its lead. My blog post brought in a dozen or so extra votes, but the trends didn't change.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Jet Pilot on July 11, 2010, 03:17:23 PM
Apparently NWR is now endorsing piracy by asking their readers to obtain illegal copies of the game to play along for this feature, as that is the only way to play this game in English. That's a disappointment. :(
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: NWR_insanolord on July 11, 2010, 03:34:50 PM
The piracy aspect isn't what bothers me; I know it's technically illegal, but I wouldn't have any moral problem with it in this particular case. My problem is that I don't want to have to play it in an emulator on my computer. I could hook up my Wii remote via bluetooth and use the classic controller to play it, but that's yet another hoop I'd have to jump through. Combine that with the fact I'm getting Dragon Quest IX tomorrow, and that I'm still playing through Puzzle Quest 2, so I really don't feel like starting another RPG right now.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: vudu on July 11, 2010, 04:53:52 PM
Well, I've been playing the game and I'm loving it!
I'm 6.5 hours into it (just finished chapter 2) and eager to start talking about it. When are we getting the discussion thread?
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: UncleBob on July 11, 2010, 06:21:16 PM
Apparently NWR is now endorsing piracy by asking their readers to obtain illegal copies of the game to play along for this feature, as that is the only way to play this game in English. That's a disappointment. :(
Well, now, technically, one could import the game from Japan, copy the ROM themselves from the original GBA cartridge, then apply the English patch and play it through an emulator (or copy it back to a GBA flash card). None of that would involve pirating the game (although there could be other issues along the way).
But, yeah, it's crappy.
Like I said before, I really hope this doesn't hurt any of the relationships NWR has managed to forge with the various teams and individuals in the development community. We're not a big site like IGN or Kotaku, so even ticking off one wrong person can hurt the chances of getting a good exclusive story... and we don't get a lot of those.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: NWR_Neal on July 11, 2010, 09:29:53 PM
Guess what? It won't. At all.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: NWR_insanolord on July 11, 2010, 09:47:22 PM
If Nintendo cared about this they wouldn't have let the fan translation happen in the first place.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: UncleBob on July 11, 2010, 10:40:49 PM
If Nintendo cared about this they wouldn't have let the fan translation happen in the first place.
What do you mean? They legally couldn't stop someone from posting a translation guide for a game (although they could stop them from providing people a way to modify the game with it).
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Mop it up on July 12, 2010, 01:38:39 AM
Yes, Earthbound is a massively overrated game with a tiny fanbase...wait what?
That's contradictory. How can an overrated game have a tiny fanbase? That makes no sense. Besides, the terms "overrated" and "underrated" are pretty silly, because ratings are entirely subjective. Every single game is overrated or underrated to someone.
To me, Mother 3 seems like a sort of remake of Mother 2, which itself was a sort of remake of Mother 1. Therefore, it is a better game by default.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Crimm on July 12, 2010, 01:42:37 AM
Yes, Earthbound is a massively overrated game with a tiny fanbase...wait what?
That's contradictory. How can an overrated game have a tiny fanbase? That makes no sense. Besides, the terms "overrated" and "underrated" are pretty silly, because ratings are entirely subjective. Every single game is overrated or underrated to someone.
To me, Mother 3 seems like a sort of remake of Mother 2, which itself was a sort of remake of Mother 1. Therefore, it is a better game by default.
Actually that's not a contradiction at all. The general perception of Earthbound is far in excess of its actual quality. However, that perception can be held by people who have not played the game, and have gleaned it second hand. The actual number of true "fans" can still be quite small.
Also, remakes are not always better by default. All indications are, and my albiet it limited hands on time with, the remake of Lufia II is inferior to the original.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Mop it up on July 12, 2010, 01:52:25 AM
I don't know who you hang out with, but I've certainly never seen anyone create an opinion on Earthbound without first playing it, or regarding it as anything, really. A lot of people have heard of it sure, due to the character inclusions in the Smash Brothers series, but that doesn't mean they assume it's a great game.
No, of course remakes aren't better by default, and that isn't what I was saying. The Mother series is basically the ongoing creation of the same game, so it gets more and more refined with each one.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: vudu on July 12, 2010, 10:31:32 AM
If Nintendo cared about this they wouldn't have let the fan translation happen in the first place.
What do you mean? They legally couldn't stop someone from posting a translation guide for a game (although they could stop them from providing people a way to modify the game with it).
They could have sent cease and desist letters and threatened legal action. If they'd gone through with it and it actually went to trial they might have lost, but the translation team didn't have the means to actually fight Nintendo in court and it would have collapsed, and Nintendo knew that. They purposely chose to look the other way.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Crimm on July 12, 2010, 01:44:42 PM
Nintendo could have said the scenario, regardless of language, is their property. Don't assume their ambivalence is a sign of tacit approval of the translators' work. It's just as likely they didn't see it as worth the time, given there is no economic incentive to stop the project. If the game were coming to the west then a move would have been more likely.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: NWR_insanolord on July 12, 2010, 01:50:34 PM
My point was that they could have stopped it if they'd wanted to, which was meant to back up my original statement that there wouldn't be any repercussions against NWR for this because if Nintendo cared that much about it they'd have stopped the translation in the first place.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: NWR_Neal on July 12, 2010, 02:08:01 PM
Let me reiterate (I can do this all day if I have to): Playing Mother 3 for RetroActive and discussing it on a podcast and forum will in no way, shape, or form hurt out standing in the game industry. No company will look down upon us. Nintendo won't black list us. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if one of us mentioned this off-hand to someone from Nintendo at next E3 and they were like "Yea, that fan translation is ok."
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: UncleBob on July 12, 2010, 07:27:55 PM
Encouraging individuals to seek out pirated material, however, is a different story.
But if you are okay with that action and feel that it will not change anything, then that's great.
And I'll reiterate: No such encouragement is happening here.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: UncleBob on July 13, 2010, 01:19:22 AM
*wink* *wink*
That's all I have to say on this subject. I think it's a bad call. It's disrespectful to both Nintendo and the creators of the game. It's dishonest to yourselves and your fanbase to pretend that you honestly expect the majority of those participating (including yourselves) to do anything but illegally obtain the game. I like the part where Johnny links to legal options for every other game, but specifically says "If Mother 3 is selected, we cannot help you find the game, only link to the English translation patch." Not even a link to a used reseller of legitimate Japanese cartridges. Why? Because you don't expect anyone to actually import the game.
Dress it up and justify it however you want, but it's piracy and you're encouraging it. If y'all have no problems with that and feel it won't hurt the site, that's fine. It's y'alls site, and you can run it however you want.
And I'm done in this thread.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: Crimm on July 13, 2010, 01:21:29 AM
Okay, we've all disagreed sufficiently.
Title: Re: RetroActive #13 Poll -- GBA Edition
Post by: MegaByte on July 13, 2010, 01:36:39 PM
As the principle, please understand that the question is regarding a rather delicate issue to which no one can perhaps identify a clear-cut criterion. Of course, we cannot say that we can give tacit approval to any and all the activities which threaten our intellectual properties. But on the other hand, it would not be appropriate if we treated people who did something based on affection for Nintendo, as criminals. It is true that some expressions are detrimental enough to diminish the dignity of our intellectual properties, and others destroy our intellectual properties’ world-views by connecting them with something not based on fact. We think one of the criteria for deciding how to respond is whether the expression in question socially diminishes the dignity or value of our intellectual properties or not. Of course, it is very hard to have a blanket standard as this problem involves many complex elements that are very difficult to judge. In these meanings, we cannot say OK to any and all such activities and, at the same time, it is not feasible for us to immediately respond to each small issue of this nature every time. However, these days an individual can easily transmit information through the Internet. Hearing your question today, as we cannot find these problems only by ourselves, we feel that a kind of contact window should be set up so that people can somehow report to us any inappropriate uses of Nintendo’s intellectual properties which diminish their dignities or values, so that we can respond appropriately. - Satoru Iwata
