Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: Chozo Ghost on February 28, 2010, 04:02:26 PM
Title: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 28, 2010, 04:02:26 PM
Well, we have Mario Galaxy, NSMB, and soon we will have SMG2, and that's not including the countless Mario games on the VC and all of the Mario Party and Sports games he is in. So is the Wii being over-saturated with too much Mario? Some consumers will like him no matter what, but I think there are many others out there who could get sick of him and wish there was something fresh and new (like a new I.P.).
I also think too much Mario is probably going to hurt sales for NSMB and SMG2. SMG1 will be alright because it was released first and its sales total are pretty much finalized and won't get much higher, but NSMB's sales are already probably less than what they could have been because it is competing with SMG1 and the sequel is looming over head. All of these games have an MSRP of $50 which is pretty steep, especially in the economy we have these days. So it means people will be buying fewer games in general. It also means they probably aren't going to be buying every Mario game that comes out. This means they have to choose which one they're going to get, so which one gets their money? Tastes vary and some will like 2D Mario over 3D Mario (or vice versa). But whichever one they choose, odds are they will limit their purchase to that one and not get the others.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Mop it up on February 28, 2010, 04:13:27 PM
Personally I say there aren't enough Mario games but that's because I adore the series far more than any other.
I see your point though, overexposure could have negative effects in the long run. However... I'm not seeing much that suggests all these Mario games are hurting sales of one another. First off, every Mario game on Wii has sold over a million copies, with the possible exception of Super Paper Mario (I'm not sure what it is up to). Most are multi-million sellers. I'm also not sure why you think New Super Mario Brothers Wii is under-performing. The game sold 10 million copies in two months, faster than any other Mario game. Faster than almost every other game period.
In short, I don't think people are sick of Mario. Sales show they can't get enough.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Luigi Dude on February 28, 2010, 04:20:05 PM
Every single gen these topics shows up.
And every single gen these topics are proven wrong.
Seriously, there is no danger of Mario being over-saturated since all the Mario games are in different genre's. Just because Mario is in the game doesn't mean anything since the games all play completely different from each other and the consumers know this. If somebody buys Mario Kart, it's because they're buying a racing game. If they buy NSMBW it's because they want a 2D platformer, just like if they buy Mario Galaxy they're buying it for a 3D platformer.
It's because if this reason, Mario stays just as popular every gen because the average person is buying Mario games for the gameplay in them, not the character.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Mop it up on February 28, 2010, 04:23:06 PM
I probably wouldn't have bought Mario Golf, Tennis, Baseball, and Strikers if Mario characters weren't in them...
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 28, 2010, 04:25:27 PM
Assuming you just mean Mario and not Mario universe (which would also include Wario), you have: Super Mario Galaxy Super Mario Galaxy 2 New Super Mario Bros. Wii Mario Party 8 Mario Strikers Charged Mario Super Sluggers New Play Control! Mario Power Tennis Super Paper Mario Mario Kart Wii Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games
That is not that many. Also, they are a wide range of genres.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 28, 2010, 04:33:04 PM
SMG1 and SMG2 are in the same genre, though. They're both 3D platformers set in space. Odds are they will be VERY similar to one another.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Mop it up on February 28, 2010, 04:36:03 PM
If the NES can handle three Mario platformers and have them all sell well then I'm sure the Wii can handle two.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Luigi Dude on February 28, 2010, 04:41:01 PM
SMG1 and SMG2 are in the same genre, though. They're both 3D platformers set in space. Odds are they will be VERY similar to one another.
Yeah but they're both 2.5 years apart from each other. Not to mention Galaxy 1 sold over 6 million of it's over 8 million total in it's first 3 months. Meaning the average Galaxy owner finished the game over 2 years ago, and so Galaxy 2 while similar, will still feel pretty fresh to most people who will buy it.
Unlike a lot of third parties who release yearly sequels where the average person ends up buying the new game less then 9 months after they finished the previous one.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Kytim89 on February 28, 2010, 04:49:43 PM
Mario is Nintendo's mascot, so it is logical that they would produce many games staring the character. Personally, I do not think that the market is over saturated with Mario games, Nintendo has just done a fair job at keeping the series appealing for twenty plus years.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: ThePerm on February 28, 2010, 08:12:18 PM
never enough mario games in my opinion, or mario anything
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: SixthAngel on February 28, 2010, 11:21:14 PM
Mario is basically a brand name.
I think you can have too many Mario platformers or too many Mario Karts but I don't think you can have too much Mario.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: ejamer on March 01, 2010, 11:13:47 AM
As long as the quality remains high and the content doesn't repeat, it's very hard to complain... but (personally) I am reaching a personal limit on how many Nintendo games really interest me this generation. 13/50 first-party titles isn't that bad though!
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Morari on March 01, 2010, 11:56:30 AM
As long as the quality remains high and the content doesn't repeat, it's very hard to complain...
So we should have started to complain the moment Mario Party came out?
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Ian Sane on March 01, 2010, 02:49:35 PM
With the Gamecube I argued that Nintendo's overuse of Mario had diminished his effectiveness as a system seller. Super Mario Sunshine should have been considered an event as a true Mario game had not been released in years. But I felt because multiple games starring Mario were released every year that the release of a new Mario platformer was not seen as such a big deal because to the average person who doesn't follow videogames on the internet Super Mario Sunshine did not stand out on the shelf any more than the lesser Mario games. It gave Nintendo the image of a company that just rehashes the same stuff, which at the time I felt was an unfair image. But to random rubes who didn't look at the details it looked like Nintendo was just releasing the same old-ass bullshit again and again. Meanwhile Halo and GTA were new franchises that a new generation of gamers were identifying with. Much like how I felt Nintendo needed to introduce more IPs for new generations of gamers to identify with, they needed to make their older IPs more prestigious by limiting their appearances. Mario should have been limited to the platformers, RPGs and Mario Kart, as I felt those were the biggest Mario games.
Well Nintendo has not exactly done that. We've got more Mario than ever (though their decision to revisit 2D Mario has resulted in the need for two series, which I think is acceptable due to the merits of the two different designs). Nintendo now spins off Zelda and Metroid as well, two franchises that used to be treated in a more sacred manner and thus had more impact with the release of each game. Nintendo is more franchise dependent than ever.
But they're targetting a different market now. I was suggesting scaling back Mario and focusing on more new IPs to attract the then current videogame market. Core gamers (the ONLY gamers at the time) felt that Nintendo were rehashers and that image needed to be addressed. But non-gamers aren't so critical of that sort of thing and lapsed gamers are all into nostalgia. In the future though these groups may overdose on Mario. Nintendo still needs to focus on creating new IPs. A new IP was what sold the Wii in the first place, not the same franchises. Mario's role on the Wii is more of a supporting franchise. People bought the Wii for the new Wii Sports IP and Mario is what they buy now that they have the console. That is the proper role for sequels.
I personally have grown sick of Mario and only buy the platformers these days.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: ThePerm on March 01, 2010, 06:41:37 PM
see, thats where we differ. As a collector, I always thought Nintendo never marketed Mario enough. Compared to what Pokémon got for so long Mario was like 2% on the brand and marketing scale. There should be Mario t-shirts, Toys, Cartoon Shows, trinkets, etc. Only recently have they started to have lots of Mario Schwag you could buy in stores. The fact that Nintendo has different series with the Mario/Nintendo brand on it should not discount the quality of the platformers. They are made by different teams and vary in quality. Ultimately if its made by EAD or Nintendo Tokyo it should be the best of the best in the Mario brand. I don't think keeping Mario scarce from a business standpoint makes his brand any less valuble. Keeping him scarce is bad business actually because they make a good chunk of money off his spinoff titles. Now Mario could be like the Avatar(the Cameron Brand) of video games if they only released one every 7 or so years, but ultimately its not a good idea to keep that strategy, because if there is any failures they'll be super failures. Zelda has had more releases than were in the nes/snes days, and people have been complaining about the quality. However, i think that is a matter of perception. New players won't see a difference because they're Zelda virgins. Unfortunately, you can only have so much fun with a franchise before things get to familiar, but i think the company should just keep doing what its doing, and the consumer should go do something else. Thats why some spouses cheat on each other.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Peachylala on March 01, 2010, 06:48:13 PM
Let's not forget that many of Mario's sports/side games sell well, which gives Nintendo PROFIT so they can make those wonderful grade A games we love so much.
Wii also has the honor of being the only console besides the NES to get a Mario 3-D sequal and not be ****-canned to be developed onto a new system (SM64 2 to Sunshine, rumored 128 to Galaxy).
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Ian Sane on March 01, 2010, 07:03:07 PM
I think a good way to sum up my argument is I don't want Mario to be like Bomberman or Mega Man. Games in these franchises are released all the time yet most of them are just sort of there. They sell okay but no one aside from the most die-hard fan feels the need to own all of them, or even be aware of the existence of all of them. Though recently Mega Man has made a comeback with the retro-style games.
These franchises are popular but are so oversaturated that they're largely irrelevent. No one really notices when the new games come out and it would take a while for people to notice if they stopped making them. Mario is at that point now where irrevelent Mario games are released. I don't want it to get to the point where irrelevent Mario platformers are released.
And if Nintendo has any intention of using Mario to sell systems then Mario has to remain relevent. Mario games have to be a big deal. These days Mega Man would not sell consoles, but on the NES or SNES he might have.
Part of it though is my love for the Mario series. I WANT the series to maintain its legendary status and it won't if it's milked too much. The fact that I skip Mario spin-offs now, and I don't even CARE, sucks. Hell I've now skipped Zelda games and I never thought I'd ever do THAT. Overexposure makes a special franchise ordinary and unessential.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Adrock on March 01, 2010, 07:13:41 PM
Over-saturation is only a problem if the games weren't good, but they are so as long as Mario is in good games, I don't think there's much to worry about.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: ThePerm on March 01, 2010, 07:23:03 PM
the biggest problems with Bomberman and Megaman is they are all relatively the same, Mario games on the other hand can be radically different. There really are no cookie cutter sequels. Even Mario 2, and Sunshine which have been refereed to everyone as terrible mario games are not bad games. They are good games that get compared to better games.
Also, you skipped Zelda games? WTF would you do that? Zelda TP is an awesome game, high quality to the max. The biggest gripes people have with it are really ridiculous. They are matter of perception things. If you haven't tried it you can't be complaining about it. Borrow it, and play through it at least. If your talking about the DS games than OK..thats different. Honestly, I've never been a big handheld owning person
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Stogi on March 01, 2010, 08:35:43 PM
Perm I think he was referring to "Crossbow Training".
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: ThePerm on March 01, 2010, 09:16:17 PM
I'v heard mixed reaction on that game as of recently, it was universally panned by critics, but is a cult game now. It was a free giveaway with a the $15 gun, they could have released the gun alone for that price. Perception.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 01, 2010, 11:45:10 PM
Link's Crossbow Training was not "universally panned". At worst, it got mixed reviews (I saw several really good reviews). It also game with a $20 gun (although most stores charged $25). The game was really fun though and worth the price just for the game alone.
And where have Super Mario Bros. 2 and Super Mario Sunshine ever been called terrible? Maybe by ignorant people online. The general perception of Sunshine is that it was a good game, but just more of the same and didn't really add anything new. SMB2 does have some detractors, but as time goes by it seems to get more love (similar to The Simpsons episodes. Episodes that got tremendous hate when they first aired, like "Two Bad Neighbors", were later considered great episodes), especially since it wasn't originally a Mario game (remember that Nintendo was worried about how Americans would react to the increased difficulty in the "real" SMB 2, so they took a game called Doki Doki Panic and made some minor alterations to it).
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Stogi on March 01, 2010, 11:49:59 PM
"(remember that Nintendo was worried about how Americans would react to the increased difficulty in the "real" SMB 2, so they took a game called Doki Doki Panic and made some minor alterations to it)."
Is this true?
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 01, 2010, 11:51:26 PM
Not "more of the same." It was "less of the good stuff." Actually, it took away good stuff, and inserted lame stuff.
Hate.
SMB2 was incredible cuz it presented Mario Universe with lots of new tricks.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 02, 2010, 12:05:36 AM
"(remember that Nintendo was worried about how Americans would react to the increased difficulty in the "real" SMB 2, so they took a game called Doki Doki Panic and made some minor alterations to it)."
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 02, 2010, 07:15:06 AM
I never bothered with Link's crossbow training because I'm not interested in the zapper AT ALL. Using the Wiimote/chuck on their own works just fine for a gun, and if I really need a gun I have my third party true shot thing which is actually shaped like a gun instead of some ab-flex or god knows what...
But I think Ian might have been referring to the handheld Zelda games such as Spirit Tracks. Unlike Crossbow Training this is actually a real game of sorts, but I for one am not interested in it at all because it seemed stupid to me. Zelda is popular and cool these days, so Nintendo is pushing the franchise a lot harder than it has since its early years. This is both good and bad. Its good because we're getting at least two quality Zelda games per generation, but its bad because we're also getting crap like crossbow training and spirit tracks.
And for what its worth, Spirit Tracks really might be a cool game and all, but I'm just not interested in it for several reasons:
1) It revolves around Trains, which I think is stupid in the Zelda universe.
2) I am far more interested in the upcoming Zelda for the Wii, so these handheld side-quests don't really interest me at all. They are on a tiny screen with inferior graphics and I dunno...
3) I dunno, I guess that's it...
I would be a lot more receptive to Zelda games if there had been a long drought, but we've been seeing a lot of it this gen so when that happens you kinda start taking franchises for granted and like Ian said you don't really get excited about it as much.
See, its just like what happened to the Star Trek franchise. There were too many Star Trek series, so people just lost interest in it and when Enterprise came out people didn't really give a **** so that series ended up being canceled back in 2005 after only 2-3 seasons instead of the 7 seasons star trek series typically get. But then between 2005 and 2009 we didn't have anything new in the way of Star Trek, so when that movie came out in summer 2009 it was a huge deal and did very well. Would the movie have done as well if it came out in 2005 when everyone was burned out on the franchise? I really doubt it.
So Mario (and Zelda and so forth) are in danger of facing the same sort of crisis that plagued Star Trek. Nintendo needs to give them a rest and put them on hiatus for awhile and develop new I.P.s in the meantime. Then after a few years they can dust them off, and put out something that is new and won't be taken for granted the way SMG2 probably will be on release.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Ian Sane on March 02, 2010, 12:45:05 PM
Quote
Also, you skipped Zelda games? WTF would you do that?
I skipped Crossbow Training because it doesn't interest me and is not really a Zelda game at all and Spirit Tracks because I felt that Phantom Hourglass controlled like **** and thus was not in the mood to struggle with forced touchscreen controls. Spirit Tracks is a quality issue though. Being a real Zelda game I would have otherwise snatched it up immediately. Crossbow Training is more related to the overexposure issue. It's an unessential Zelda title.
Nintendo usually makes quality games so the quality of Mario spin-offs does remain high. But we have had games like Mario Pinball Land which is widely considered to be junk. We've had games like Super Sluggers that got criticism for being a gloried port of the Gamecube game. Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games was financially successful but got pretty "meh" reviews. If you go on GameRankings you'll see Mario games that have an average rating of less than 70%. That's TERRIBLE. Thankfully those aren't as common as the Mario games that get really great reviews but, seriously, there should not be ANY lousy Mario games and there are. Considering Nintendo can always get at least one Mario game out a year they should never resort to releasing anything subpar.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Peachylala on March 02, 2010, 12:50:09 PM
Quote
2) I am far more interested in the upcoming Zelda for the Wii, so these handheld side-quests don't really interest me at all. They are on a tiny screen with inferior graphics and I dunno...
Zelda: Spirit Tracks had more charm then Twilight Princess. >=[
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: ThePerm on March 02, 2010, 01:08:46 PM
so Ian, if you had one gold nugget would it be worth more than a gold nugget with a silver nugget? What if there were 3 gold nuggets, 3 silver nuggets, and a couple of brass nuggets? Would that be worth more ore less than just the gold nugget by itself. Dopes having the extra nuggets lower the value of the gold nugget. Does having more than one nugget of gold make each gold nugget quantifiable worth less?
perception
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 02, 2010, 01:23:15 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/SixSidedVideo/kelli.jpg) "I love Mario. I stuffed him and put him next to the stairs."
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: ThePerm on March 02, 2010, 01:37:02 PM
holy crap animal crossing movie!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AmAX0L2m2M
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: ThomasO on March 02, 2010, 02:21:23 PM
I've had that movie on DVD for the past 2 years. It's an ok movie.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Ian Sane on March 02, 2010, 02:56:31 PM
Quote
so Ian, if you had one gold nugget would it be worth more than a gold nugget with a silver nugget? What if there were 3 gold nuggets, 3 silver nuggets, and a couple of brass nuggets? Would that be worth more ore less than just the gold nugget by itself. Dopes having the extra nuggets lower the value of the gold nugget. Does having more than one nugget of gold make each gold nugget quantifiable worth less?
I see it more like making an impression on someone. Meeting someone five times and making a great impression each time is more valuable than meeting them 20 times and in between those five great impressions, you sometimes make an okay impression and sometimes make an outright poor one. I think it's in Nintendo's best interest that Mario be associated with high quality. This will allow the Mario brand to remain a popular seller for a longer period of time. To do so Nintendo has to be somewhat selective in regards to what Mario games are made.
I consider prestige and reputation to be important selling points here. Mario cannot maintain that prestige and reputation with average titles being cranked out in between the classics.
Plus Nintendo can divert the resources used in making unessential Mario titles to developing new IP that has the potential to become another big money-making franchise for Nintendo. I understand there's a risk in that but it's an essential one for maintaining longterm success.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Plugabugz on March 02, 2010, 03:19:01 PM
Is Mario over saturated? No.
Is Mario over-saturated at the expense of other IP's, both existing and undeveloped? YES.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 02, 2010, 05:36:23 PM
so Ian, if you had one gold nugget would it be worth more than a gold nugget with a silver nugget? What if there were 3 gold nuggets, 3 silver nuggets, and a couple of brass nuggets? Would that be worth more ore less than just the gold nugget by itself. Dopes having the extra nuggets lower the value of the gold nugget. Does having more than one nugget of gold make each gold nugget quantifiable worth less?
perception
Actually, yes. Have you ever heard of inflation? A dollar bill is worth so much, but then when the government prints too much dollars it dilutes its value and that's why stuff seems to cost more and more every year. Decades ago you could buy everything really cheap, but its not really that stuff was cheaper then its just that money had more value in those days.
And gold is kinda the same way. Gold is valuable because it is scarce. Are rocks valuable? No, because rocks are abundant. But if Gold suddenly became very abundant it would not be worth as much. This sort of thing actually happened in events like the Gold Rush and when Spain took over the Aztec/Inca gold. Those events increased the supply of precious metals, and as a result they became a bit less precious.
So does having two gold nuggets make the first nugget less valuable? Yes, actually it does... and then if you have 100 million gold nuggets then it will REALLY make it less valuable.
And franchises probably work the same way. They can experience "inflation" with the more titles that are released.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: ThePerm on March 02, 2010, 06:18:28 PM
its a matter of perception,
its still the same gold and silver nuggets, its just how you perceive it. Gold is for the most part a useless metal, its soft so it doesn't have many applications other than jewelry. It has been found to be a good conductor for computer chips, but because its rarity it has been so used in jewelry its too expensive to really use.
I don't judge franchises on a whole, i judge game by game. It's like racism.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Ian Sane on March 02, 2010, 07:06:22 PM
I think our finite amount of time and money to enjoy games also contributes to why overexposure is a bad thing. I think we all can agree that too many Guitar Hero games have been released. Do you know what really makes me disinterested in them? It's simply the fact that because they come out so frequently I don't have the time to fully enjoy them. One game comes out while I'm still getting mileage out of the other one. It becomes apparent I'll have to skip one or, if I want to play all of them, put off getting the next one until I'm done with the one I'm on. But if the rate is too frequent then I never catch up and the whole thing becomes intimidating and a big chore.
That creates indifference. Now I have to rationalize which games to skip and which to not. Now that I realistically can't experience all of the games I can't be fully into the franchise. Or if I do play them all I may only be able to sample them. Most of us won't have the time to be engrossed in every detail of a franchise unless it has some sort of space between releases. I think it would be difficult to know every Mario game inside and out now. That is a discouragement from being a fan. Remember when Metroid was only a trilogy? Yeah, you could be a real fan of those games back then and be totally engrossed in all three.
I like Chozo's example of videogame inflation. That's a great analogy.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: ThePerm on March 02, 2010, 07:09:36 PM
those are casual games though :P
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: mac<censored> on March 02, 2010, 07:30:36 PM
One game comes out while I'm still getting mileage out of the other one. It becomes apparent I'll have to skip one or, if I want to play all of them, put off getting the next one until I'm done with the one I'm on. But if the rate is too frequent then I never catch up and the whole thing becomes intimidating and a big chore.
Ok, so that's the obsessive point of view.
I think Nintendo's more concerned with what the average person thinks, though.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Mop it up on March 02, 2010, 07:34:39 PM
We've had games like Super Sluggers that got criticism for being a gloried port of the Gamecube game. If you go on GameRankings you'll see Mario games that have an average rating of less than 70%. That's TERRIBLE.
That's a problem with reviews, many reviews dock points from a game for having similarities or being a port. In the case of Mario Super Sluggers though, it has all new content except for including the same character roster as the first game. If it is a port, then so is Mario Kart Wii.
Since when does 70% (or 7/10) equal a terrible game? It is pretty sad that we've gotten to a point where "hardcore" gamers are so stuck-up that they consider a 7/10 to be a terrible game. My goodness, I don't even want to know what they must think of games that get 6/10 or less. These review scores don't really matter when we're talking about what the general public thinks of Mario games and how much they enjoy them.
On Amazon, Mario Super Sluggers has a customer review score of 4 1/2 out of 5 stars, based on 64 reviews. 45 people gave it 5 stars and 12 people gave it 4 stars, leaving only 6 people who gave it 3 stars or less. Based on this, the game scores 90%, or 9/10. Is it a good game? Most who buy it seem to think so.
Now Amazon reviews for Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games. This one has a 4-star rank, from 206 people. 96 gave 5 stars and 52 gave 4 stars. That may not be as high as some games, but that's still 80%, or 8/10. Still sounds like a good game to me.
These customer review scores mean much more than professional review scores. These aren't people who are being paid to play a game and view it through a critical eye, they purchased these games with their own money and use their own free time to play them (plus volunteered a rating for Amazon). This shows that the people who are buying these games enjoy them and view them as quality, despite what any self-righteous reviewer thinks. I don't think customers really care about the average review scores for these games, all they care about is Mario games delivering what they promise. By the look of these reviews, Mario games are meeting the satisfaction of consumers.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Ymeegod on March 02, 2010, 11:33:01 PM
"These customer review scores mean much more than professional review scores"
Actually I disagree with that statement. Have you read some of these reviews? Most people throw up their thoughts by playing the game a couple of hours and not on the whole product. Some don't even play them, parents mostly.
And it's depending on who's scoring system you're going by. 5.0 isn't average, most games get above this so it's not an average to go by. What a 5.0 game means is the game is functional, meaning it'll play without crashing. 6.5-7.0 is an passable grade but that's a D though C- game. Which means it gets by but chances are there are better games in the genre.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 02, 2010, 11:55:54 PM
7 means the game isn't great, but it's good and more than worth playing. 5 doesn't mean the game is terrible, just sorta mediocre (meaning you may not love it, but you probably won't hate it). 7/10 means the game is good. I feel sorry for idiots who think a game isn't worth playing if it gets less than a 9/10.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Mop it up on March 03, 2010, 12:10:35 AM
Actually I disagree with that statement. Have you read some of these reviews? Most people throw up their thoughts by playing the game a couple of hours and not on the whole product. Some don't even play them, parents mostly.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. Consumer reviews have a higher chance of being from a game's target audience, reviewers get paid to play games and must do so within a certain time frame so they aren't the best judge for many game types, especially Wii games.
Review scores are completely subjective so I don't take any score or average of scores to automatically mean that a game is good/bad. I've enjoyed many games that scored 7/10 and below, and I've disliked many games that scored 8/10 and above, so scores are pretty meaningless to me.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Stogi on March 03, 2010, 01:06:05 AM
Dude I hate how Nintendo keeps making these bullshit games then slapping Mario on the front of it. It's not fair. If Mario was a real person he would claim that he's been abused.
Worst of all, I don't think Nintendo gets it. Just cuz people buy these games doesn't make them good. In fact, I'd go as far to say that the only reason people buy those games is because third parties make even worse ones.
Nintendos sitting on a cushion. If only some third parties would show them how its done, then I wouldn't have to buy all this drivel.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Armak88 on March 03, 2010, 04:19:37 AM
7 means the game isn't great, but it's good and more than worth playing. 5 doesn't mean the game is terrible, just sorta mediocre (meaning you may not love it, but you probably won't hate it). 7/10 means the game is good. I feel sorry for idiots who think a game isn't worth playing if it gets less than a 9/10.
I don't know if people really think this way about all games. The context is important. For instance, as a Canadian I expected the Canadian hockey team to win gold at the olympics. Hockey is our sport, and more than half of the players in the NHL are Canadian, I expect that if the Canadian team puts forth a good effort then they will win gold. In this case anything less is disappointing, not living up to their potential. If a new mario game comes out (I'm talking platformer here), I expect the game to get over 9, or at least 8.5, because that is the standard that they have set. Were the game to score lower than that I would wonder what happened. Fortunately I'm patient enough to read the review to find out why the reviewer gave it the score they did, and I don't think that most people do that so the two options they have are to claim the game is crap or the reviewer is crap.
Mostly though, my point is that AAA titles from heavy hitter developers are striving for high review scores and I think that when they don't meet those expectations is when you see all of these old conflicts come out of the wood work. If No More Heroes (for example) scores a 7 on the other hand, it's not that big a deal, people will like it anyways and there won't be a reviewer roast.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Ian Sane on March 03, 2010, 12:18:30 PM
Quote
Since when does 70% (or 7/10) equal a terrible game?
I didn't say 70%, I said LESS THAN 70%. You get 69% on a test do your parents hang it on the refridgerator? In the real world 50% is not average, 50% is ****. 50% in school doesn't get you into college. 50% win-loss record doesn't win you the championship. If you opperated your job at a 50% level of efficiency you would get fucking CANNED. It makes no sense why anyone says that a 50% is average.
And I agree with Armak in that more is expected of Mario. Mario games should not be getting anything under 80% let alone 70%. And I put more clout in professional reviews than cosumer reviews for one simple reason: consumers don't necessarily have any context. The first game you ever played, at one point was the BEST game you ever played. A professional reviewer can compare the game to other games in the series, other games in the genre, other games by the same company, and other games on the same system. This gives one a better picture of whether a game is exceptional or not. And games are expensive and I only have so much free time so exceptional games are the only ones I will ever pay any attention to. Life's too short for okay games.
Knowing that a game is a port or is too similar to a previous game is important to know if you already have that game. Again, that's context.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: vudu on March 03, 2010, 01:55:27 PM
Actually, yes. Have you ever heard of inflation? A dollar bill is worth so much, but then when the government prints too much dollars it dilutes its value and that's why stuff seems to cost more and more every year. Decades ago you could buy everything really cheap, but its not really that stuff was cheaper then its just that money had more value in those days.
And gold is kinda the same way. Gold is valuable because it is scarce. Are rocks valuable? No, because rocks are abundant. But if Gold suddenly became very abundant it would not be worth as much. This sort of thing actually happened in events like the Gold Rush and when Spain took over the Aztec/Inca gold. Those events increased the supply of precious metals, and as a result they became a bit less precious.
So does having two gold nuggets make the first nugget less valuable? Yes, actually it does... and then if you have 100 million gold nuggets then it will REALLY make it less valuable.
And franchises probably work the same way. They can experience "inflation" with the more titles that are released.
Having two gold nuggets might make the first slightly less valuable, but in no way, shape or form will you be worse off by having two. If a gold nugget is worth $100 and suddenly you find a second which makes them each worth $95 you'd be better off with both (worth $190) than you were before.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: ThePerm on March 03, 2010, 05:46:57 PM
Vudu summed it up pretty well The law of deflation/inflation is meaningless when you account for the law of dissemination. Bill Gates may be the richest man in the world(i don't know if he currently is or not), but just because of inflation doesn't mean he's going to give away all of his riches. He's still better off than all of us.
Because Mario Galaxy is one of the highest rated games of all time one could say that a large number C level game spinoffs could be approved. Thinking about actual Mario spinoff releases though, i find there to be less off the top of my head than were on gamecube. The Mario party series has ground to a halt after 8, there are two sports games each usually with a B+ rating (baseball,soccer), Mario Kart is an beloved series in its own right (also, fairly well reviewed), Super Paper Mario is a mixed review, and New Super Mario Wii is something most people liked. If anything the Mario party games were dragging down the brand, but there hasn't been a new one since 07.
as far as Zelda goes, i tend to seperate hand held and console offers completely. There have been 2 Zelda games on DS, neither were terrible, maybe mediocre, possibly great depending on opinion. Twilight Princess is either appreciated for its fan service or just plain meat, or despised because of its all too-familiarity. Crossbow challenge is more like some sugar to go with your kool-aid. Its not meant to be a be-all end all Zelda game just something to do with your gun. If it didn't have the Zelda theme we wouldn't be talking about it, but if it didn't have a Zelda theme it wouldn't be developed at all because they were just recycling assets for a low budget bargain pack-in. Nintendo should develop some new IPs, but that i easier said than done. For Nintendo developing a new Ip is more than just putting new characters in a game type, its developing a new genre. Each game EAD makes though, they do little experiments, which is see as testing the waters.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Mop it up on March 03, 2010, 06:13:48 PM
I don't feel as if videogames should be held to the same standards and expectations as school or work. Videogames aren't people. 50 is the average of 100, it makes no sense to me that anyone wants to claim some other arbitrary number as being average.
Mario platformers both 2D and 3D don't score lower than 80%, rarely lower than 90%, actually. Even with the "laziness" controversy of New Super Mario Brothers Wii, IGN still gave it an 8.9. So I don't think you really have to worry about their quality or image being diluted.
People have different expectations for the Mario spin-off games. They are simple pick-up-and-play games that often offer a twist on a genre, such as Mario Kart. Since these games are designed to be simple, they may not review very well if they are being compared to other, more robust and feature-full games, as they have intentionally low depth. As far as I'm concerned the games deliver what they promise and do so exceptionally well, reviewers who gave them low scores wanted them to become something that they aren't.
That's my problem with many reviews today. Most of them seem aimed at the "hardcore" audience and are largely useless to the average consumer, which I'd say is at least 95% of the Wii userbase. Reviewers don't judge a game based on its own merits and instead feel the need to compare it to every game under the sun, even games on other systems. If that's what you want in a review then that's fine, you have your tastes. I, myself, find little relevance with such comparisons.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Plugabugz on March 03, 2010, 06:32:44 PM
Actually, yes. Have you ever heard of inflation? A dollar bill is worth so much, but then when the government prints too much dollars it dilutes its value and that's why stuff seems to cost more and more every year. Decades ago you could buy everything really cheap, but its not really that stuff was cheaper then its just that money had more value in those days.
And gold is kinda the same way. Gold is valuable because it is scarce. Are rocks valuable? No, because rocks are abundant. But if Gold suddenly became very abundant it would not be worth as much. This sort of thing actually happened in events like the Gold Rush and when Spain took over the Aztec/Inca gold. Those events increased the supply of precious metals, and as a result they became a bit less precious.
So does having two gold nuggets make the first nugget less valuable? Yes, actually it does... and then if you have 100 million gold nuggets then it will REALLY make it less valuable.
And franchises probably work the same way. They can experience "inflation" with the more titles that are released.
Having two gold nuggets might make the first slightly less valuable, but in no way, shape or form will you be worse off by having two. If a gold nugget is worth $100 and suddenly you find a second which makes them each worth $95 you'd be better off with both (worth $190) than you were before.
His point is economically valid though. By diluting the market with too much X too much vudu the price simply goes down because its rarity decreases and people no longer have to pay more to obtain it.
James Cameron made only one film in all of the 2000-2009 decade, and so (with a million other reasons) people were highly anticipating Avatar's release. If he cranked out releases every 6 months that hype train would stop cold.
Same applies to Mario.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Ian Sane on March 03, 2010, 07:02:03 PM
Quote
I don't feel as if videogames should be held to the same standards and expectations as school or work. Videogames aren't people. 50 is the average of 100, it makes no sense to me that anyone wants to claim some other arbitrary number as being average.
But that's just not how reviews work. The reviews are graded more like a grade in school. You can't just decide "well 50% should be the average" because that's not how it is being done. If a game gets below 70% the reviewer is saying "this game sucks".
Quote
That's my problem with many reviews today. Most of them seem aimed at the "hardcore" audience and are largely useless to the average consumer, which I'd say is at least 95% of the Wii userbase. Reviewers don't judge a game based on its own merits and instead feel the need to compare it to every game under the sun, even games on other systems. If that's what you want in a review then that's fine, you have your tastes. I, myself, find little relevance with such comparisons.
The hardcore audience is the readership of the sites that do the reviews. Is NWR going to write a review for someone who doesn't read their site? The thing is the average consumer doesn't care about reviews. They go see a movie that every critic craps on because the ads suggested to them that they would like it. That's their "review" - marketing. Critics are for people who aren't as susceptible to marketing. And those people are usually more like the critics in that they're familiar with a broader scope of work. If you made reviews for the average consumer then there would be NOTHING to indicate to the more savy consumer what is worth looking into. The thing is the "elitist" reviews would be created anyway. If IGN didn't cater to this group, someone else would. And if you want average customer reviews than go check out the user reviews on Amazon. Reviews for this market exist, they're just not found on videogame web sites who, by definition, appeal to people with a more hardcore interest in videogames. I don't criticize a hot rod magazine for not telling me about the gas mileage of a KIA.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Mop it up on March 03, 2010, 07:12:48 PM
I've not seen a reviewer claim that a game sucks when they score it lower than 70%. I think that's just your own selfish perception of reviews and scores.
Maybe the average consumer would read reviews if they were more helpful and informative. I see no reason why a review can't contain enough information for both "hardcore" gamers and the less experienced. I have seen some reviews which make comparisons to other games but also still judge a game on its own merits, thereby providing information to someone uninformed of that series or genre. This is an example of what I find to be a good review.
I'm an informed consumer and I still found most reviews of Mario Super Sluggers to be lacking. Some of them just complained about how similar it was to the previous Mario baseball game and mentioned little else. How am I supposed to make a decision on the game if reviews never discuss the good points? I bought the game and love it, it is one of my top ten most-played Wii games. I thought it was much better than Mario Superstar Baseball. I can't help but wonder if some reviewers had a hidden agenda...
Being an informed consumer means seeing through review bias and thinking for myself.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Stogi on March 03, 2010, 08:31:34 PM
I agree with everything that has been said and will be said!
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on March 03, 2010, 10:09:05 PM
The problem is that what is average varies from site to site and reviewer to reviewer. At some places 70 or 75 percent is average, but NWR specifically states that a 5 is average.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: BeautifulShy on March 03, 2010, 10:28:52 PM
Mop_it_up beat me to all the responses that I wanted to respond with to Ian.
As far as if Mario is overused or not I think that each game has its own merits and the genres are different for the most part (except the platformers,but I am not going to complain about those). Mario can be in pretty much every genre so I am ok with that.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 03, 2010, 10:31:46 PM
and when judging on a 5 or 10 pt scale the half way point should be average.
The Rating Scale as BNM see it:
0-3 (1-1.5/5): absolute garbage, shovelware at it's worse and never should have been released
4-5 (2-2.5/5): very average and very forgettable. Possible good concept with very poor execution or vice versa.
6-7 (3-3.5/5): above average to good. Could've used some more work in certain areas, but enjoyable. Solid effort. Might be a buy, but a rental at the very least.
8-9 (4-4.5/5): It just missed the mark somewhere, but it's still a very good game. Worth a purchase if you were interested, but a little more polish might have done the trick.
10 (5/5): This is a must buy for anyone even considering a purchase. May not be perfect, but it does everything it needs to very well. An A+ effort, would buy again.
That's how I see the rating system working.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Kytim89 on March 03, 2010, 11:28:18 PM
As long as the quality of the games are good, it really does not matter how many Mario games are on the wii.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: ThePerm on March 04, 2010, 01:38:29 AM
well i think there are multiple outlooks on how games are reviewed. I just suppose you have to know your reviewer. Ian's scale is pretty much how I review games, but I think Mop_it_up's system also works perfectly well. Numbers are a quantifiable way to review a game, but obviously it helps to read the verbal qualiity review for some context. It really depends on your standards, what you can afford, and how you define the level of ****/greatness. I mean at some point things go from ****, to being forced to play it only in hell levels. Really Ian's review system is just a 5 point scale transposed onto a 10 point scale where things below 5 would actually be -1 to -5 on a mop_it_up review. At some point you like want to call someone and tell someone how bad a game is and try to find the person who made the games number and personally berate them and demand your time back, possibly violence for sending humankind backwards. :P
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 04, 2010, 01:46:40 AM
I think our finite amount of time and money to enjoy games also contributes to why overexposure is a bad thing. I think we all can agree that too many Guitar Hero games have been released. Do you know what really makes me disinterested in them? It's simply the fact that because they come out so frequently I don't have the time to fully enjoy them. One game comes out while I'm still getting mileage out of the other one. It becomes apparent I'll have to skip one or, if I want to play all of them, put off getting the next one until I'm done with the one I'm on. But if the rate is too frequent then I never catch up and the whole thing becomes intimidating and a big chore.
This reminds me of when Thoreau went to some library in Concord or thereabouts, and after seeing all the books he wept because he realized he couldn't possibly read all of those books in his lifetime, no matter how much he read.
Video games are now at or near that point too, and they come out a lot faster than it is humanly possible to play them all. Back in the 16-bit generation and earlier, someone could probably keep up on all the games (or at least ones worth playing) provided they had enough money to afford them, but now that's impossible.
There are so many games I've missed out on and continue to miss out, and I will never have the time to go back and pick those games up because new ones are piling up too fast to keep up with. There are so many great games that come out and DESERVE to do well, but they don't do well because they are drowned out by the 10 millionth reiteration of call of doody, Madden, and so forth. These are real time eaters. They're fun and definitely worth it if you like that sort of play (if they weren't people wouldn't keep buying them), but it forces you to miss out on the new I.P.s. Some players get sick and burned out on these games, but there are too many others who keep buying them for them to ever really fade away like they should.
I think this is why new quality IPs like No More Heroes flop... everyone is buying 20 different versions of Mario for their Wii, so they have little time or money to try out new stuff.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Mop it up on March 04, 2010, 03:06:40 AM
I think this is why new quality IPs like No More Heroes flop... everyone is buying 20 different versions of Mario for their Wii, so they have little time or money to try out new stuff.
Though I see your point, I don't think this was the best comparison. No More Heroes is a completely different type of game than any Mario game, I don't think there are very many people out there who buy both. In my case, I haven't bought No More Heroes because I'm not really interested in it.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Stogi on March 04, 2010, 04:23:25 AM
I think this is why new quality IPs like No More Heroes flop... everyone is buying 20 different versions of Mario for their Wii, so they have little time or money to try out new stuff.
Yeah and that's why Wii Fit, Music, and Resort all flopped.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: ThePerm on March 04, 2010, 02:21:41 PM
I think our finite amount of time and money to enjoy games also contributes to why overexposure is a bad thing. I think we all can agree that too many Guitar Hero games have been released. Do you know what really makes me disinterested in them? It's simply the fact that because they come out so frequently I don't have the time to fully enjoy them. One game comes out while I'm still getting mileage out of the other one. It becomes apparent I'll have to skip one or, if I want to play all of them, put off getting the next one until I'm done with the one I'm on. But if the rate is too frequent then I never catch up and the whole thing becomes intimidating and a big chore.
This reminds me of when Thoreau went to some library in Concord or thereabouts, and after seeing all the books he wept because he realized he couldn't possibly read all of those books in his lifetime, no matter how much he read.
Video games are now at or near that point too, and they come out a lot faster than it is humanly possible to play them all. Back in the 16-bit generation and earlier, someone could probably keep up on all the games (or at least ones worth playing) provided they had enough money to afford them, but now that's impossible.
There are so many games I've missed out on and continue to miss out, and I will never have the time to go back and pick those games up because new ones are piling up too fast to keep up with. There are so many great games that come out and DESERVE to do well, but they don't do well because they are drowned out by the 10 millionth reiteration of call of doody, Madden, and so forth. These are real time eaters. They're fun and definitely worth it if you like that sort of play (if they weren't people wouldn't keep buying them), but it forces you to miss out on the new I.P.s. Some players get sick and burned out on these games, but there are too many others who keep buying them for them to ever really fade away like they should.
I think this is why new quality IPs like No More Heroes flop... everyone is buying 20 different versions of Mario for their Wii, so they have little time or money to try out new stuff.
its also become harder to keep track of new releases, I used to be able to do it failrly well, but missing the train on Mass Effect proves its just getting tougher, or im just getting older. Orochimaru wants to learn all the Ninja techniques there are, but realizes he can't do it in a lifetime. however, im betting some Ninja techniques are pretty useless.
Title: Re: Is the Wii becoming over-saturated with Mario games?
Post by: Ymeegod on March 04, 2010, 10:43:12 PM
See, the problem is even NWR rated 28/30 of the latest games above average and it's RARE for a game to get 5.0 or below. If everybody's getting above average scores the the curve has to move up. 7.5 is a C game, passable and some might find enjoyment out of it and overlook it's flaws.
Do I play C rated games? Depends on the genre and the flaws. I tend to be an RPG nut so I tend to play even the c rated games, but if it was an FPS then why bother since there's dozens of GOOD FPS to play so I usually only play B rated or better.
