Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: King of Twitch on January 21, 2010, 03:03:57 AM
Old people and technology just don't mix!
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: broodwars on January 21, 2010, 03:05:21 AM
Wow, just wow. That's an epic failure of research before purchase right there, but at least he admits it. You know what, though? From the sounds of it, his family had a great Christmas anyway, so maybe it was for the best. Some people just aren't ready to own a video game system.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: ShyGuy on January 21, 2010, 03:28:27 AM
Somebody post the Penny Arcade Gamecube connectivity comic strip.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Stratos on January 21, 2010, 03:45:53 AM
An here I thought casually interested people loved their add-ons and extra peripherals.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 21, 2010, 03:47:24 AM
Yeah, what a moron. He says he hasn't owned a video game console since the original Atari in the early 80s. His ignorance shows, and he has no business whatsoever writing reviews about technology.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Kairon on January 21, 2010, 04:04:31 AM
You know, read the article and the guy comes across as a responsible parent and sensible decision maker. So he plunged into a Wii purchase without doing research and quickly became overwhelmed with all the things it would involve, from internet connectivity to accessories to added costs. He started getting concerned over how to handle as a parent his children's playtime. He then returned the goods to the store within a day after some dedicated thinking.
He deserves to be admired. No $200+ purchase should just be jumped into. And in the end, his family's Christmas was great anyways. And when he DOES buy a Wii, which he says he most likely will do within the year, he'll have a better idea and won't get nearly as confused.
This isn't an article about technology. This is an article about how to be a responsible parent, an educated consumer, and rational human being.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: that Baby guy on January 21, 2010, 06:57:44 AM
I'm not so sure, Kairon. The scenario sounds a bit iffy, to me.
He decided to buy the $200 Wii for his children for Christmas. He tacks on additionally prices that are inaccurate, to say the least, and not even necessary. He looks at the game selection, and decides Wii Sports is enough for his kids. He goes home, and talks to his wife about how he spent about $90 more than he had originally planned.
Then, suddenly, he realizes he'll have to create rules to go with the new gaming console. Suddenly, he realizes that the Wii, itself, could overshadow the other gifts he got his children at Christmas. Suddenly, he realizes there's other options.
A responsible consumer and a responsible parent would have considered the cost of buying a Wii for multiple family members. He'd know that instrument-based controllers can cost extra, or else Best Buy wouldn't try so hard to sell them to you. He would know that he'd have to make sure his children played the games responsibly. He's already told us he's already done that with the free games on his computer his son plays. Of course, if he was planning on limiting the amount of Wii time his children would get, he'd also know that they would certainly appreciate their other gifts, as well.
To me, it sounds like he found it was too expensive, and decided to make several excuses afterward. If he's someone intelligent enough to read about in an advice-style column, then I'd venture to guess he'd be smart enough to understand what's involved with this decision, and a sharp enough critical thinker to foresee at least one of the trouble-scenarios he divines after he made the purchase.
I suppose the article may be an attempt at how to be a responsible parent, an educated consumer, and a rational human being, but not in what you pose as the intended nature. We observe from the journalist's poorly thought out, potentially erratic behavior the complete opposite way a responsible, intelligent, and rational person would go about making a purchasing decision for his children. In essence, that's why I believe most reactions to this article I've seen have been quite a bit negative.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: SixthAngel on January 21, 2010, 09:09:57 AM
You know, read the article and the guy comes across as a responsible parent and sensible decision maker.
He came across to me as a control freak parent. He said he only allows 30 minutes of screen time for his kids a week! 30 a week! One episode of Sesame Street? One Saturday morning cartoon? His possible plan for the Wii was 10 minutes a day which is essentially one game of bowling. I understand limiting tv time, and I think it should be done, but these are the kids that I felt sorry for when I was a kid. I do agree the Wii would have overshadowed the other gifts though.
He also claims his kids are "content" with their consumer electronics device, a calculator. Best. Gift. Ever.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 21, 2010, 09:36:22 AM
You know, read the article and the guy comes across as a responsible parent and sensible decision maker.
If he is so sensible then why was he "overwhelmed" and had to return it? I don't buy what you're saying at all. There are no hidden costs to the Wii. Right out of the box the system had everything needed (minus the tv) to get it up and running and have someone playing Wii Sports in single player mode. Granted, you need to buy an extra controller for other players but this isn't a hidden cost. Nintendo isn't hiding that information from anyone.
He also went for the Rock band games that require additional peripherals. Why did he do that? Maybe he knew what he was doing and just wanted to have something to whine about so he could write his article.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: ShyGuy on January 21, 2010, 09:53:19 AM
Either the man doesn't have five minutes of foresight or it's a contrived situation for the article.
The PA strip: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/8/25/
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: SixthAngel on January 21, 2010, 09:59:11 AM
I think its perfectly okay for him to be overwhelmed when buying a system. Many people who haven't played games don't realize the extra controllers and things that are needed to get the experience they want. I've seen people who were actually surprised they had to buy games with it. He also makes a good point about the number of free games available on the internet, especially when his kids only have enough time to turn on the computer.
I still think he is a house rules nazi though.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: ShyGuy on January 21, 2010, 10:01:31 AM
I have to CONTINUE putting gas in this car I bought? Double You Tee Eff, Ford Motor Company.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: broodwars on January 21, 2010, 10:04:48 AM
There's a tremendous irony in all these people coming down on a guy who's obviously an extremely casual/lapsed gamer being overwhelmed at all the stuff you have to have to use a modern console. Casuals don't do research, and they don't know what's out there. Aren't people like this guy the people we're supposed to be sympathetic and understanding to? It's not like this guy was buying a Wii for work purposes (he even admits as much in the article that that's just an excuse), where I would expect him to know the hardcore facts about the system like we do.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: SixthAngel on January 21, 2010, 10:07:21 AM
Do you think someone who only lets their children spend 30 minutes a week on the computer and interent combined will really be tech savvy in the slightest? By tech savvy I mean know the slightest thing about any computers or videogames in the last 10 years besides the fact that they corrupt the young.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: ShyGuy on January 21, 2010, 10:12:30 AM
He runs a website called siliconbeat.com Does he know what silicon is and how it's applied to technology? Why is he writing about something he has little knowledge of?
I bet he was mad when he bought a television and got screwed by the "hidden cost" of batteries for the remote. Plus he probably had to get a cable TV subscription! How dare they!
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Stratos on January 21, 2010, 10:14:45 AM
He even admits in the article that it was bad of him to run to the store without first researching the matter. I think it was a matter of him being too overzealous in getting a popular gift for his kids without thinking it all the way through.
Also, my Mom made the observation that its the kids without those systems or on 'gaming time budgets' are typically the most out of control and obsessed. My sister (who is 11) is a very well balanced child and loves playing games as well as other activities but some of her friends where the parents have 'TV limits' or ban gaming all together come over and literally cannot stop playing unless you force them to stop. Its like because of those controls the child never learns proper self control and balance on their own. Though I'm sure every child is different.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: ShyGuy on January 21, 2010, 10:26:01 AM
I just find it hard to believe that as a technology journalist, the consequences of owning the #1 christmas gift of the past four years has never occured to him. "Hey, in the fifty million pictures of people playing over the past four years and two months, I've never seen a cord running into the controller they're holding. Guess it uses magic."
Did he return his iPod when he discovered it didn't come with music?
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Peachylala on January 21, 2010, 12:55:55 PM
I discovered that my PS3 Slim doesn't come with a time machine built in. I should sue Sony right now!
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: EasyCure on January 21, 2010, 02:04:39 PM
Please forgive me, forum, for what I'm about to say.. (NOT FOR THE SENSITIVE!)
he should have just aborted those kids of his when he realized the "hidden cost" of having sex. Normally i'd recommend adoption but if he went that route he'd be pissed he'd still have to pay the hospital bill for having said children delivered. Wait, he'd still have to pay for the abortion.. wait.. even before the sex that produced the children he had to pay for dinner and gifts to court his mate (unless he's a rapist).. **** there's "hidden costs" in dating too? Poor guy can't fucking win, guess lifes too hard with all these "hidden costs".. maybe he should just end it all...
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Ian Sane on January 21, 2010, 02:19:56 PM
I think the cost of the controller is the ONLY thing that would have been an issue. Two kids, two controllers. Makes perfect sense. It's been a long time since videogame systems came with multiple controllers. Meanwhile the Wii comes with a game. If he did his research he would know about Wii Play and then, bingo, second controller and second games for the kids. Internet play is optional and wouldn't be that necessary for his family's needs. Plus I'll bet he doesn't know it's wireless and for all he knows he already has a wireless router and just doesn't use it. If he did research he would also realize that Lego Rock Band is an EXCEPTION and that most videogames for any console are not so expensive.
Now the Wii does have some hidden costs. I think selling nunchuks seperate is a pretty mean cash grab. The batteries requirement is fucking annoying as well. But you don't need rechargables on DAY ONE. Doesn't he have AA's lying around the house? The clerk owned him on that one. He could always get rechargables at a later time if he felt they were needed. I've never bothered.
If the guy did five seconds of research he would have spent $250 for a Wii, two games and two controllers and his kids would have been absolutely THRILLED. But he's a yutz.
It also seems that a big part of his decision is that him and his wife were so overwhelmed by the idea of how they could regulate their kids' videogame time. Let kids be kids and quit worrying. Though I'm not a parent so I'll admit I don't know how I'll feel in the same situation. I do know that kids get bored of games if you don't buy them new ones. I would only get my kids videogames for birthdays and Christmas so I figure that would help balance things out. With nothing new to play for months at a time, Ian Jr. would have to go outside to find something fun to do.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: EasyCure on January 21, 2010, 02:28:05 PM
Screw outside, give Ian Jr a guitar! Let his hair grow long and oily while he shreds (and maybe FAPS?) In the basement.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Ian Sane on January 21, 2010, 03:00:28 PM
Quote
Screw outside, give Ian Jr a guitar! Let his hair grow long and oily while he shreds (and maybe FAPS?) In the basement.
I wouldn't force my kids into music, but probably at least one of them would have some instinctive interest. I would probably give my kid my cheap ass guitar and buy myself something better, ha ha!
Still the guy's kids are 7 and 4 and I was thinking more about that age. No one faps in the basement at age 7.
I wouldn't force my kids to play videogames either if (for some weird reason, since all kids like videogames) they weren't interested. I would only force them to find SOME sort of interest, something to be passionate about.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: EasyCure on January 21, 2010, 03:37:19 PM
Ian you need to lossen your seriousness-belt, in now way did I mention forcing your kin into anything, and was only joking about fapping. I do agree though with the idea of not forcing ones child into anything. I dont't want to be the Sports Dad or Beauty Pageant Mom type when it comes to music, just because its one of my passions. I do believe however that its okay to give your children a slioght push in the right direction..
When I was younger, no one ever gave me an outlet for my instinctive interest in music, and so for a long time I lost interest until I went out and bought my first guitar. I see one of my younger cousins just loves drawing and coloring, so one christmas I bought her this huge coloring set; built in eisel with a big selection of crayons, colored pencils and markers, as well as huge drawing pads. She loed it so much she ignored all the dolls and clothes she got and went off to color. Since then there've been times when I find out she's not been coloring simply because her mom didn't resupply her with tools for her craft. That's when I step in, she seems to have a "gift" so I'll do my best to nurture it.. but its not like I'll ever scold her for not drawing anymore or submit her things into art contests. I just believe that giving a child a little push, as opposed to letting them get discouraged and give up onEVERYTHING, is healthy for their development.
But anyway, uh.. these guys stupid? (The one from the article not Ian)
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Dirk Temporo on January 21, 2010, 03:53:57 PM
He came across to me as a control freak parent. He said he only allows 30 minutes of screen time for his kids a week! 30 a week! One episode of Sesame Street? One Saturday morning cartoon?
Yeah, what the hell is that? When I was seven I got a half hour each DAY. Half an hour is absolutely nothing. It's 1/48th of the day. It's 1/336th of the week.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 21, 2010, 05:14:58 PM
Every single one of these "hidden" costs are completely optional. As Ian said, the only thing he really needed to get was another controller, and that could have been done through Wii Play the way most seem to do it. Other than that everything is completely optional. I don't own a rock band bundle with drums and all that stuff, and I get along just fine. Why does this guy seem to think you have to own every single peripheral ever made?
99% of the Wii's library was available to him without the need of extra peripheral purchases. There are only a handful of games which require special extras. For some reason he seemed to make a beeline straight towards these handful of games. I think he did that deliberately just to have something to whine about in his article.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: EasyCure on January 21, 2010, 06:17:11 PM
its a case of the uninformed informing the uninformed, or simply duping the uninformed for some cause that isn't quite clear.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 21, 2010, 07:14:00 PM
Journalist must be a fancy new word for
FAT BABIES
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: EasyCure on January 21, 2010, 07:31:48 PM
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Mop it up on January 21, 2010, 08:05:46 PM
It almost sounds like he's calling games a hidden cost. Oh well, 4 seems a bit young to be playing games anyway.
When I was a kid, my parents let us do things like watch the telly and play videogames only after doing things like chores or homework. Using games as a reward for work seems like a good way to go about it.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: EasyCure on January 21, 2010, 08:12:16 PM
It almost sounds like he's calling games a hidden cost. Oh well, 4 seems a bit young to be playing games anyway.
When I was a kid, my parents let us do things like watch the telly and play videogames only after doing things like chores or homework. Using games as a reward for work seems like a good way to go about it.
The majority of my SNES collection came from receiving A/B's on my report cards up until 6th grade or so.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Mop it up on January 21, 2010, 08:14:48 PM
Did that encourage you to get those A/B's?
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 21, 2010, 08:16:46 PM
Gerstmannus Fat Babus is a subset of this species.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: EasyCure on January 21, 2010, 08:22:05 PM
Considering I was an honor student during all of elementary school, and my grades dipped from middle school thru high school, i'd say so :P But there were other reasons for the slip in grades, especially in high school. I was (sorta still am) the slacker type and i just never "applied" myself to school, becaues it was insanely boring. I started off with the grades to get in to all those honours classes at the start of high school but opted not to, so i can coast. Boy did i coast.. :D
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 21, 2010, 08:53:17 PM
It almost sounds like he's calling games a hidden cost. Oh well, 4 seems a bit young to be playing games anyway.
When I was a kid, my parents let us do things like watch the telly and play videogames only after doing things like chores or homework. Using games as a reward for work seems like a good way to go about it.
I got a 3 year old in front of me right now playing Wii Fit Plus. She turns on the wii puts in the game, selects her character and then selects the game she wants to play all by herself. She even finishes some of the challenges with decent scores besting her 7 year old sister in 1 or 2 of them.
But of course she's not allowed to play until she practices her ABC's and 123's.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Stogi on January 21, 2010, 09:58:25 PM
Considering I was an honor student during all of elementary school, and my grades dipped from middle school thru high school, i'd say so :P But there were other reasons for the slip in grades, especially in high school. I was (sorta still am) the slacker type and i just never "applied" myself to school, becaues it was insanely boring. I started off with the grades to get in to all those honours classes at the start of high school but opted not to, so i can coast. Boy did i coast.. :D
I blame drugs....well drugs and girls. Oh and alcohol.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: EasyCure on January 21, 2010, 10:11:24 PM
Believe it or no, no drugs (ever) and i didn't get into alcohol until I was 20. I simply had no interest in studying in such a shitty school with horrible teachers and even worse students. I spent 5th-8th periods outside making friends :P
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Ian Sane on January 22, 2010, 05:34:22 PM
Quote
I was (sorta still am) the slacker type and i just never "applied" myself to school, becaues it was insanely boring. I started off with the grades to get in to all those honours classes at the start of high school but opted not to, so i can coast. Boy did i coast..
In high school I worked my ass off and to get good grades. Then I did the same in college and got VERY high grades. My employer has told me I has hired because of that, since I didn't have relevant work experience at the time. I acheived my career goals at 19, my car is paid off and I just bought a house. If I had slacked off I wouldn't have that.
And yet I wish I partied more in high school and college. I wish I seriously pursued my band when I was 18 instead of putting it on the backburner to concentrate on realistic and responsible career goals. I was ironically more mature ten years ago then I am now.
But if I slacked off THEN where would I be NOW? The odds are I wouldn't be a rock star, but rather some loser, living with my parents, working a nothing job to try to make ends meet.
The solution of course is to party NOW. ;)
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: ThePerm on January 22, 2010, 05:55:12 PM
lol Chris O'brien, he's pretty accessable. We had a chat about Google Wave once.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: NWR_insanolord on January 22, 2010, 05:56:14 PM
I was (sorta still am) the slacker type and i just never "applied" myself to school, becaues it was insanely boring. I started off with the grades to get in to all those honours classes at the start of high school but opted not to, so i can coast. Boy did i coast..
In high school I worked my ass off and to get good grades. Then I did the same in college and got VERY high grades. My employer has told me I has hired because of that, since I didn't have relevant work experience at the time. I acheived my career goals at 19, my car is paid off and I just bought a house. If I had slacked off I wouldn't have that.
And yet I wish I partied more in high school and college. I wish I seriously pursued my band when I was 18 instead of putting it on the backburner to concentrate on realistic and responsible career goals. I was ironically more mature ten years ago then I am now.
But if I slacked off THEN where would I be NOW? The odds are I wouldn't be a rock star, but rather some loser, living with my parents, working a nothing job to try to make ends meet.
The solution of course is to party NOW. ;)
The solution is to do both. I'm currently in college and I'm having the time of my life, making friends and having fun, but I still managed to make the Dean's List last term.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Invincible Donkey Kong on January 22, 2010, 06:12:27 PM
There's also the hidden cost of wasting my time so I can hunt you down and punt you. You don't want to waste my time. :reggie:
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Stogi on January 22, 2010, 06:19:47 PM
I was (sorta still am) the slacker type and i just never "applied" myself to school, becaues it was insanely boring. I started off with the grades to get in to all those honours classes at the start of high school but opted not to, so i can coast. Boy did i coast..
In high school I worked my ass off and to get good grades. Then I did the same in college and got VERY high grades. My employer has told me I has hired because of that, since I didn't have relevant work experience at the time. I acheived my career goals at 19, my car is paid off and I just bought a house. If I had slacked off I wouldn't have that.
And yet I wish I partied more in high school and college. I wish I seriously pursued my band when I was 18 instead of putting it on the backburner to concentrate on realistic and responsible career goals. I was ironically more mature ten years ago then I am now.
But if I slacked off THEN where would I be NOW? The odds are I wouldn't be a rock star, but rather some loser, living with my parents, working a nothing job to try to make ends meet.
The solution of course is to party NOW. ;)
The solution is to do both. I'm currently in college and I'm having the time of my life, making friends and having fun, but I still managed to make the Dean's List last term.
I hate parties. Parties are a god awful waste of time. All that fun and memory making..god I hate it.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 22, 2010, 06:23:08 PM
The kid you say that's not yours
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Dirk Temporo on January 22, 2010, 08:18:29 PM
Believe it or no, no drugs (ever) and i didn't get into alcohol until I was 20.
lol you think alcohol isn't a drug. That's adorable. :3
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: BranDonk Kong on January 23, 2010, 10:51:22 AM
I can't believe any website would let such a complete moron work for them.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Kairon on January 23, 2010, 12:04:16 PM
So much hate. I don't understand. The guy's only human!
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: ShyGuy on January 23, 2010, 12:24:49 PM
Look, if he was Joe Forty Something who writes a human interest column, then he would be dumb but acceptably dumb.
But he is a technology journalist. And he knows nothing about the Wii and didn't bother to know anything about the Wii.
If he ran a site called crimebeat.com I would expect him to have at least a general knowledge of the criminal justice system.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Kairon on January 23, 2010, 01:29:14 PM
But he admitted those mistakes OPENLY in his original column. Bottomline, he made a mistake in not doing research, and wrote about his realization of this moment and his not making any $300 commitments until he HAS done the research like he should have, about his role as a prent, about what exact additional costs he should accept, and when would be the right time for him to jump in.
He admits error, corrects error, promises to do better in future. How is that NOT something we should respect him for?
By the way, he has written a follow-up blog post on this talking about the reaction the article got:
And I re-iterate: the guy's human, and "tech" is a huge multi-faceted industry. Just because you write about cover business news about one section does not automatically expose you to other almost unrelated sectors of the industry.
Are we angry at him for not magically absorbing the knowledge we all take for granted? Are we angry because he decided to return a Wii, and not an XBox360, or PS3? Are we angry at him because he didn't give his kids a $300 XMas present? Are we angry at him for regulating the amount of time he lets his kids play videogames?
Or are we angry at him for even just writing about his doubts, and sharing his experience to the world? The way I see it, NONE of these are proper reasons for the vitriol we see here!
This guy is a potential gamer, he intends to buy a Wii in the near future, he has kids who would enjoy it much, and he cares about what he's getting into. He deserves our support, help, and a friendly welcome worthy of Mario, NOT our denigration!
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: brian577 on January 23, 2010, 03:31:59 PM
and he opens his new article with a quote from a research article about how bad games are for children, yeah I don't see the agenda there...
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: ShyGuy on January 23, 2010, 03:55:47 PM
Kairon, as a professional in the public eye he has responsibilities. When he fails those responsibilities, there are consequences. He made a mistake and we can respect him for admitting it, but that doesn't absolve him of criticism.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Mop it up on January 23, 2010, 10:20:11 PM
So much hate. I don't understand. The guy's only human!
I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people who are lashing out probably don't have kids, and are sympathizing with his children rather than with the man himself. Raising a child is one of the toughest jobs out there, and each one is different, so there are no easy answers. That said, I still can't get over the 30 minutes a week thing. I hope that changes when they're older.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: BranDonk Kong on January 24, 2010, 01:32:33 AM
He's dumb because he mentions stuff like microphones and unnecessary attachments, and rechargeable batteries ($30, seriously?), none of which are actual "hidden costs," but rather "optional purchases that in to way, shape or form add to the initial cost of the console." No one is angry because he did what he did, we're angry because he wrote a misleading article. That's like saying you bought and iPod, but after realizing that you "have to buy" a car charger, cradle, iTunes music, etc., that you returned it because of the "hidden costs."
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: ShyGuy on January 24, 2010, 01:52:06 AM
What Brandogg said.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 24, 2010, 02:10:29 AM
He's dumb because he mentions stuff like microphones and unnecessary attachments, and rechargeable batteries ($30, seriously?), none of which are actual "hidden costs," but rather "optional purchases that in to way, shape or form add to the initial cost of the console." No one is angry because he did what he did, we're angry because he wrote a misleading article. That's like saying you bought and iPod, but after realizing that you "have to buy" a car charger, cradle, iTunes music, etc., that you returned it because of the "hidden costs."
QFT.
That's hitting the nail squarely on the head. The problem here is people reading this article who don't know better are going to be misled by it and deceived. The Wii is actually the most affordable console out there, but by reading this people are going to be led to believe the exact opposite.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: that Baby guy on January 24, 2010, 02:14:42 AM
Quote
Oddly enough, there is debate within the comments about the fact the many consoles do have hidden costs, and whether that’s to be expected or whether it’s a sneaky, price-gouging stunt.
In the column, I acknowledged that I blew it by not doing my research beforehand. That was picked up by some commenters, but not many. As far as expense, at the end of the day, let’s have a reality check: A video game console is a luxury, not a necessity. If my kids are happy playing free games online, well, that’s still cheaper than any money I’d pay for a game console.
But beyond that, it’s clear most of these commenters can’t seem to conceive of a world where everyone doesn’t play video games all day long. Or that there might be any consequences to that lifestyle. Like I said in the column, I’m not anti-video games. We let our kids play them (though apparently we’re torturing them by limiting that to 30 minutes a week!). And we will probably get a Wii next year. I’m especially excited about the recent deal with Netflix to stream movies on the Wii, since I’m a big fan of Netflix.
It's this bit here that really gets to me. This is where he undermines his intelligence, his talking points in both writings, and his apology.
To begin with, he's surprised that a major point he wrote about, the "hidden costs" of a gaming console, was discussed in a comments section that contained over eight hundred posts. The hidden costs idea is a major point of contention for the man, as he originally pointed out, so shouldn't it be no surprise that it would play a part in any discussion of the article? Is it that he's surprised any habitual video game player could take his side, or at least look at the matter at hand objectively? Either he's a little slow, or I'm personally offended, and honestly, I'd like to believe the former over the latter.
If you've read this new article, you can see his main talking point is a little bit different from last time: His main concern seems to be the length of time children spend in front of a TV screen or a computer monitor. Of course, it's understandable that people need to monitor their children's playing time. That's good parenting, and advocating this position certainly isn't a bad thing. However, this isn't an excuse, and he's using it as one. The fact of the matter is, he has a system already: Thirty minutes playing computer/video games per week. He's created that system, and is currently using it. How, if he already has a stern rule on game usage, can he have a panic attack about a decision he stands firmly by? It's nonsense. Using this as an excuse just contradicts every problem aside from price he originally talks about.
Which brings me to the third issue: While he's giving a half-hearted apology/justifying his actions, how does he conclude? He writes that he wants the Wii so he can use it himself, since he knows Netflix will be available on it. Not normally a big deal, but given the context, with the reasoning that playing games for half an hour a week is the limit for his kids, and more often this type of entertainment should be limited, choosing to watch movies just doesn't cut it as a better way to spend your time. At least a video game can be a stimulating learning utility. Very few interesting movies offer any sort of benefit, except for the satisfaction one gains by watching. To say people play too many games, then say you want to watch movies, that's just disrespectful. I completely understand he was trying to level with us, and gamers in general, but doesn't anyone see the lame contradiction here? Wouldn't he be better served having an "Electronic Media" limit, so he and his children don't rot their brains watching other things?
I had to leave in the middle of writing this, so it might seem disjointed. If it does, sue me. It makes good, reasonable points, though. At least I think it does. Anyone want to post this on his SUPER blog?
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Stratos on January 24, 2010, 02:45:56 AM
I think it makes sense. And I was actually considering posting it in his blog before I read the part where you asked. It would be interesting to see his response to it.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: that Baby guy on January 24, 2010, 04:46:34 AM
You can if you want, but clean it up so it's to him, and not for the general reader. I wouldn't mind.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Mop it up on January 24, 2010, 01:41:11 PM
I didn't really think about it before, but you're right. Why is he so surprised by the amount of comments? What kind of reactions did he expect? The follow-up really makes it sound like he does have something against videogames, especially with the assumption that the people who commented "play video games all day long".
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Kairon on January 24, 2010, 03:20:20 PM
I think everything is getting blown out of proportion and we're letting minor wordchoices, assumptions, and emotions get in our way. The author is clearly not an educated gamer. He intends to buy a Wii, but he's still struggling through how to handle video games, how to think about them, and how to approach them as media and/or entertainment. Like I said before, no one is perfect,and with so many experts in the game industry proven wrong time and time again, it's hardly fair to expect a relative newbie to the field to not trip up on his first attempt.
There are definitely things he says that causes gamer's ears to pinprick, but these are most likely said because of ignorance and carelessness, not a real intent on malice. Similarly, the vehement internet response is probably being misinterpreted as a hive-like defense reaction, instead of as a people dismayed that their beloved pastime and hobby is being misconstrued and misinterpreted in a one-sided manner on a public forum.
I still stress tolerance and understanding. I don't expect 100% agreement, but there has to be common ground on which to move forward here. I like the fact that the author still intends to buy a Wii. Whether it's for his kids, or for Netflix, or both, convincing him to put a console in his house is the first step to changing his opinions and subconscious preconceptions about videogames. Sure, he's said some things now that sting, but the best way to correct the misconceptions he's perpetuating is to encourage him to work past his current misgivings, educate him on what the Wii and videogames in general has to offer him and his family, and see him become a part of our sector of the gaming industry.
The reason I want civil, and friendly, dialogue on this issue is because I want videogames to show the world, one consumer at a time, that everyone and anyone can be a gamer, no matter what their thoughts on the "Gaming Ghetto" was before.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Morari on January 24, 2010, 03:35:56 PM
The reason I want civil, and friendly, dialogue on this issue is because I want videogames to show the world, one consumer at a time, that everyone and anyone can be a gamer, no matter what their thoughts on the "Gaming Ghetto" was before.
Isn't that what ruined gaming though? It was just fine until it became popular!
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: ShyGuy on January 24, 2010, 03:42:24 PM
No compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Kairon on January 24, 2010, 03:50:12 PM
Isn't that what ruined gaming though? It was just fine until it became popular!
Nintendo's been claiming that they make games for everyone aged 2 to 92 since the early days, if I recall my old copies of Nintendo power correctly. What's ruining gaming is forgetting the real history and real values that Nintendo has championed ever since the beginning.
I think everything is getting blown out of proportion and we're letting minor wordchoices, assumptions, and emotions get in our way. The author is clearly not an educated gamer. He intends to buy a Wii, but he's still struggling through how to handle video games, how to think about them, and how to approach them as media and/or entertainment. Like I said before, no one is perfect,and with so many experts in the game industry proven wrong time and time again, it's hardly fair to expect a relative newbie to the field to not trip up on his first attempt.
There are definitely things he says that causes gamer's ears to pinprick, but these are most likely said because of ignorance and carelessness, not a real intent on malice. Similarly, the vehement internet response is probably being misinterpreted as a hive-like defense reaction, instead of as a people dismayed that their beloved pastime and hobby is being misconstrued and misinterpreted in a one-sided manner on a public forum.
I still stress tolerance and understanding. I don't expect 100% agreement, but there has to be common ground on which to move forward here. I like the fact that the author still intends to buy a Wii. Whether it's for his kids, or for Netflix, or both, convincing him to put a console in his house is the first step to changing his opinions and subconscious preconceptions about videogames. Sure, he's said some things now that sting, but the best way to correct the misconceptions he's perpetuating is to encourage him to work past his current misgivings, educate him on what the Wii and videogames in general has to offer him and his family, and see him become a part of our sector of the gaming industry.
The reason I want civil, and friendly, dialogue on this issue is because I want videogames to show the world, one consumer at a time, that everyone and anyone can be a gamer, no matter what their thoughts on the "Gaming Ghetto" was before.
He's already figured out how to handle games with his children, though, Kairon. We want a fair opportunity for video games to be experienced by everyone, too.
My issue is that his article doesn't support oppenness to gaming. It's written to inspire doubt in the mind of the reader who's already thought everything through. Everyone knows when you buy a DVD player, unless it says otherwise, it doesn't come with any movies to watch. They know you have to replace the batteries in the remote from time to time. At this point in time, it's a fact that we can take for granted is general knowledge. So why act surprised when this is the same for video games? Why misquote the price of the accessories you chose to buy, in the firstplace?
Beyond that, though, his response was certainly an underhanded attempt to "get the last word" against hundreds of anonymous commenters. There's just too many instances of occurrences that lead to this:
Quote
That sounded perfectly legit to me. But to those in the gaming community, well, let’s just say that it’s nothing short of pure heresy.
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Fortunately, as the thread wore on, and I responded to some of the comments, the tone shifted and an interesting conversation emerged about the legitimate issues about how much exposure to video games and media is healthy.
In this perspective, we're lead to believe that every video gamer is prone to completely irrational outbursts, and thanks to Mr. O'brien here, gamers in general were able to get things back together and be reasonable, well-thought discussion makers.
Quote
The tone of the post is pretty neutral. The comments are not, most of which are from folks who naturally didn’t bother to read the column itself (surprise!).
Now, if you read his cited examples from the comments, yes, the commenters do insult the reporter, but it is certainly unclear that anyone he refers to did not read the column. He infers such a thing is true of one comment, but doesn't even allow the possibility that said commenter could doubt the truthfulness of the article, and dismiss certain parts of it, which isn't a great thing to do, but is clearly being recreated to the same extent in this response column.
Quote
Fortunately, there were some voices of sanity:
Luckily, he didn't have to intervene with the Kotaku comments for tranquility and logic to return. Still, his exaggerated remarks about gamers' reactions to his original story seem a bit less credible, since he's pointed out instances where his broad opening statement has been untrue.
Quote
Oddly enough, there is debate within the comments about the fact the many consoles do have hidden costs, and whether that’s to be expected or whether it’s a sneaky, price-gouging stunt.
Once again, he underestimates the commenters he's decided are completely against him, and shows his surprise that there was general interest in the gaming community about points he made in the article.
Quote
But beyond that, it’s clear most of these commenters can’t seem to conceive of a world where everyone doesn’t play video games all day long. Or that there might be any consequences to that lifestyle. Like I said in the column, I’m not anti-video games
Who's said anything, anything at all, about playing video games all day long? There are a few people saying that 30 minutes a week isn't very much, yes, but very few, or even none, have made any assertion here. This is another exaggeration meant to berate and demean "pro" video game commenters. Every gamer I talk to in person agrees moderation is needed. Many I speak to on forums also agree. I'm sure you do, too, Kairon. How do you feel being lumped in with the assumption and exaggeration Mr. O'brien has made?
Or, if you're the exception, and I'm the exception, and your friends are the exception, and my friends are the exception, and the people here we talk to are the exception, don't you wonder who the people are that exemplify the rule? Can they really be seen as any sort of majority?
Quote
Happily, I also got dozens of emails (and some comments) from readers who were sympathetic, from parents who took time to describe their own challenges in striking that balance. I even got a couple emails from parents who bought the Wii for Christmas and have been regretting it do the fights and stress it’s caused. One of my favorites:
Unfortunately, Mr. O'brien didn't receive anything sympathetic that was noteworthy from any gamers out there. It closes his column up implying that video gamers are inept at developing and displaying empathy and sympathy.
Wouldn't you say he has taken any shot he can to quietly subvert the opinions of those who play video games and comment on game-related articles as a hobby? He's attempting to play the victim role to gain support for his side, yes, but he's taken it a step forward, and decided to cement that there should be sides on this issue, and that the side opposite his is full off angry people with little logical function available.
I've already shown that there's a few loose ends to how he tells his story. I don't believe there's anything wrong with admitting the price of entry was too high, at all. But the costs are apparent, even if he gives out incorrect pricing information in his article. It's electronic media standard to sell hardware and software as separate items, and it's actually the video games industry that routinely bends that standard in Mr. O'brien's favor.
Given what we know, and the selection of methods used to convey the point of a man who is trained and paid to write well, I'd say if anything, the people who disagree with this article and are angry about how what is being said is being said are the ones who want a world where gaming is accessible to anyone and everyone. I happen to be a person who subscribes to the idea that perception is a major contributing factor to every opinion, and that usage of particular writing techniques can alter perception in a way that is favorable to whomever uses them. It's a practice that I'm sure he was taught when he became a journalist, and it's a practice that's in use to a greater extent as time passes. And it's this intent of deception he uses in his article that I'm angry about, because this is certainly something that will alienate people from picking up and playing games in the future. This journalist's reaction to the original controversy was unprofessional and immature, and I'm not happy about that.
On a more minor note, anyone else surprised that there hasn't been any comments to his blog post since about this time yesterday? I'm shocked not to see more any at all, aside from the four that were there yesterday when I read it the first time.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Kairon on January 24, 2010, 05:52:01 PM
Thatguy, I'm not arguing that the article is contains things which make me raise my eyebrows as a gamer. But like I said before, I chalk it up to ignorance, poor choice of language, carelessness, and the magnification of the internet. Especially the internet, since that explains the more barbed, defensive, and even less understanding tone of his follow-up post. Anyone knows that the first instinct on the internet when heatedly criticized by opponents is to denigrate them, whether it be by snarky word choice (bad poaster?) or otherwise.
I agree that as a journalist, he should attempt to be above that, and given the general state of the internet, I'd say he's doing better than most. He definitely hasn't succeeded completely, but if bouts of bad internet behavior is such a sin, we are all guilty.
In the end, I don't see his posts as malicious. Insensitive, under-researched, defensive, and stained with plenty of preconceptions, yes. Indicative of the internet's power to polarize, demonize, and stigmatize without being strained through conscious, temperate thought? That too. But I still see potential to be open-minded if others can just reach out a helping hand and look past their gut reflex to swarm into a hive pattern defense.
I propose that the best way to deal with this is not to ignore the faults laid out in front of us, but acknowledge them, and work to correct them not through blanket demonization, but a realization that this man intended to buy a Wii, still intends to buy a Wii, and perhaps could use some help in doing so.
And in the end, wouldn't that turnaround of opinion, and overhauling of so many hurtful assumptions and subconscious preconceptions about gamers, be so much more productive?
Everyone knows when you buy a DVD player, unless it says otherwise, it doesn't come with any movies to watch. They know you have to replace the batteries in the remote from time to time. At this point in time, it's a fact that we can take for granted is general knowledge. So why act surprised when this is the same for video games?
Well, to be fair, using batteries for controllers is relatively new for mainstream console gaming. Only this generation in fact.
Every gamer I talk to in person agrees moderation is needed. Many I speak to on forums also agree. I'm sure you do, too, Kairon. How do you feel being lumped in with the assumption and exaggeration Mr. O'brien has made?
As a Nintendo fanboy, I've been generalized and lumped into so many groups so many times already. After it happening time and time again, I keenly want to be constructive in my attempts to make its happening less and less likely.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: that Baby guy on January 24, 2010, 07:11:23 PM
I can see where we disagree, Kairon.
I believe, given the original concept of the article, as well as the contradictions within it, that there was a certain level of sensationalism infused in the story, I decided to check out his twitter feed: http://twitter.com/sjcobrien
Without reading prior stories from this author, even the twitter feed shows he's using the Kotaku posts as a way to draw attention to himself, gain sympathy from others, and to vilify the video game commenters on the site.
Additionally, looking at the twitter feed, he's had experience with all sorts of electronic media. He seems well researched on Net Neutrality, general silicon valley business, and even Second Life. Given this, it's clear he's well read on matters in virtually every aspect.
I suppose what I'm saying surprises me the most is that the opportunity to do something that most readers and consumers alike would appreciate, like a beginner's buyers guide, for instance. Instead, coming back from regretting a purchase he opted to return, he writes a story which still continues inaccuracies in regards to buying a Wii.
What if, instead of this story, he said "Why I didn't buy a Wii for Christmas, and how you can learn from my mistakes."
Then proceeded with useful information, like how if you buy last year's Rock Band or Guitar Hero boxed sets, you can save about half the retail price during some special deals, and get just as quality a boxed set as in the newer one, essentially allowing you to afford the new music title by itself, as well as an older iteration of the series with all the gear for the same cost as the newer game with the gear alone. Even then, you could still save $20+, with more bang for your buck.
He could point out that Wii Play exists for people in his predicament (Though it was suggested that his $50 Wii-Remote price mistake might be attributed to Wii Play,) so you can get another game and a Wii-Remote for a marginal cost.
Perhaps he could point out he would have had an easier time if the Wii were bundled in a "ready-for-family" package, which comes with a few complete remotes and recommended games.
But clearly, his initial intent wasn't to help future consumers from the get-go, or he'd at least make clear the cost of the items he considered. It's clear it wasn't to point out that games should be used in moderation, that was given minimal consideration, like it was an afterthought or an excuse to return the console. So why didn't he buy the Wii for Christmas? Why did he write the article, in the first place?
Given that he's said he isn't too cheap to buy one, and given that he's got a system for his children to abide by, in terms of playtime, and given that he's made it clear he's still uncertain the costs of certain aspects of the Wii, I can't bring myself to identify what stood in his way. I'm not aware of what could have caused a panic attack. I'm not sure what he expects the average informed reader to take away from his column, except that he doesn't exactly seem like a logical person, at least from this one purchasing decision. The column has the exact opposite effect of what is intended to anyone who is educated, truthfully.
Perhaps we need to try to get an editorial published in his paper, but often, because editors of the paper are allowed to edit the content of the editorials, the original message doesn't make it through to the readers. To make it more clear, Kairon, what I'm trying to say is that I'm upset because the platform he's using to write with doesn't allow us to make something constructive out of this, not in any method of relatively simple means. The method I can think of that could have success would take time, as we'd need to develop and create a video game buyer's guide blog to combat this column, and ones similar to it. Like a CAG, but for normal, everyday people. I think only then would we have a forum that would be a competing voice. In the least, NWR could create an official response, in effort to explain how to avoid the problems the journalist claims to have faced.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Kairon on January 24, 2010, 07:14:41 PM
I've been thinking just that thatguy! Hmm... a Wii guide guide to first-time console shoppers...
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: GearBoxClock on January 24, 2010, 07:16:43 PM
Man, a PARENT'S GUIDE TO BUYING VIDEO GAMES FOR THE FIRST TIME would be very helpful to first time video game buying parents
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: that Baby guy on January 24, 2010, 07:34:08 PM
I've been thinking just that thatguy! Hmm... a Wii guide guide to first-time console shoppers...
That's the thing, though. The only real way to be consistent would be to keep it updated with regular sales tips, suggestions, and all of that, otherwise, a year from now, won't the same thing happen again?
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: brian577 on January 24, 2010, 07:55:00 PM
There's been an explosion of new comments on his latest article, including some people from Kotaku
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: that Baby guy on January 24, 2010, 08:03:22 PM
There's been an explosion of new comments on his latest article, including some people from Kotaku
That's the one thing I don't understand about internet browers... I clicked "Refresh" several times before posting when I said that, and it never updated to show anything more than those first four posts. Was it like that for anyone else?
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: brian577 on January 24, 2010, 08:09:29 PM
There's been an explosion of new comments on his latest article, including some people from Kotaku
That's the one thing I don't understand about internet browers... I clicked "Refresh" several times before posting when I said that, and it never updated to show anything more than those first four posts. Was it like that for anyone else?
It's possible the site approves comments before they are posted
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: BranDonk Kong on January 25, 2010, 01:34:51 AM
It's also possible that everyone is getting WAAAY too into this article. The guy wrote a bad, misleading article. End of story. If he changed the article title to "I bought a Wii and a bunch of stuff for the Wii that I didn't need, and it cost a lot of money so I just took everything back," and then instead of posting it online just made it a word document and left if on his screen, then everything would be fine again.
Title: Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
Post by: Kairon on January 25, 2010, 01:38:44 AM
