Even Nintendo doesn't know why these "hardcore" games are not selling.
Yet to be fair, it's not really Nintendo's fault these games aren't selling. It's either: a) our fault because we bitch about the lack of hardcore games yet WE DON'T BUY THEM. b) 3rd Excuse Makers don't advertise them enough. c) Entertainment value and replayability. Conduit is good for an FPS... it's just so genetic, and Madworld entertains for only six hours.
You know the Wii is a great console when the company who makes it is just as confused as we are. I love you so much, Nintendo. :3
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 30, 2009, 01:37:54 PM
I think we answer this on a daily basis.
Nintendo did a combination of things well enough to make Wii so successful on one end, while Nintendo and 3rd Excuse Partners fail a combination of things to fail so hard on the other end.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 30, 2009, 01:41:50 PM
Again, these games aren't selling because they aren't all that good.
When a really good "hardcore" title comes around, let me know.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: Mop it up on July 30, 2009, 01:48:26 PM
When a really good "hardcore" title comes around, let me know.
There's a problem right there: most "hardcore" gamers are a fastidious bunch and aren't going to buy anything which gets an average review rating of less than 9. The market is flooded with too many games. If companies released less games but made them better, they would sell a lot better.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 30, 2009, 01:53:42 PM
Mop_it_up is catching my drift.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 30, 2009, 01:58:34 PM
OK, so it means marketable, industry self-destructing, universally over-rated games are needed.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: Mop it up on July 30, 2009, 01:59:11 PM
You mean like Halo.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 30, 2009, 01:59:53 PM
OK, so it means marketable, universally overrrated games are needed.
Well the gaming media seems to call for them, but they sure as hell aren't needed. Most "hardcore" games blow anyway. Shallow gorefests with bald space marines.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: Plugabugz on July 30, 2009, 02:00:09 PM
Because everyone, Nintendo included, cannot market games that are not everyone-oriented (read: single player) to save their lives.
I just saw an advert for EA Sports Active where it was a woman exercising with the game. The tagline mentioned its RRP, OUT NOW and the name of the game. End. I now want it.
That's all it needs to do. How hard is that?
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 30, 2009, 02:09:37 PM
When a really good "hardcore" title comes around, let me know.
There's a problem right there: most "hardcore" gamers are a fastidious bunch and aren't going to buy anything which gets an average review rating of less than 9. The market is flooded with too many games. If companies released less games but made them better, they would sell a lot better.
It's the approach the Ubisoft is making, so atleast one 3rd party is trying to stop making excuses. EA might qualify for the same philosophy(atleast when it comes to sports).
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: EasyCure on July 30, 2009, 02:18:39 PM
To Everybody:
Buy Rune Factory Frontier. It's hardcore, it has infinate replay value because the game doesn't freakin' end. It keeps waggle as an optional minimum, for those of you who are picky about this sorta thing (Press A to use your tools/weapons..or waggle..or just use the classic controller and use A, still).
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: JRNN on July 30, 2009, 02:33:08 PM
Buy Rune Factory Frontier. It's hardcore, it has infinate replay value because the game doesn't freakin' end. It keeps waggle as an optional minimum, for those of you who are picky about this sorta thing (Press A to use your tools/weapons..or waggle..or just use the classic controller and use A, still).
Ive seen a gameplay of that and it does look real fun, I might get my hands on it
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: broodwars on July 30, 2009, 02:58:46 PM
Buy Rune Factory Frontier. It's hardcore, it has infinate replay value because the game doesn't freakin' end. It keeps waggle as an optional minimum, for those of you who are picky about this sorta thing (Press A to use your tools/weapons..or waggle..or just use the classic controller and use A, still).
Sorry, but I got my fill of Rune factory with the first game. I have to agree with what several others have said: the reason the "hardcore games" on Wii haven't been selling is that they're just not that good, certainly not up to par with what Nintendo can produce when they're in the mood. They're experimental; interesting; and perhaps even moderately entertaining, but they just don't "bring the awesome" I can get on other platforms (and for the record, I'm not a fan of any of the "generic space marine" games). I just went out today and put down my full pre-order on Metroid Prime trilogy (sorry, it took me a while to find enough games I could bear sacrificing to it), and that's probably the only "hardcore game" I'm buying this year on Wii outside maybe Dead Space: Extraction and/or Silent Hill. I just have better options elsewhere.
If 3rd parties (and Nintendo as well, for that matter) want my money, they need to step it up and put the same effort into their Wii games that they put into their PS3 and Xbox 360 games.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: EasyCure on July 30, 2009, 04:28:01 PM
Buy Rune Factory Frontier. It's hardcore, it has infinate replay value because the game doesn't freakin' end. It keeps waggle as an optional minimum, for those of you who are picky about this sorta thing (Press A to use your tools/weapons..or waggle..or just use the classic controller and use A, still).
Ive seen a gameplay of that and it does look real fun, I might get my hands on it
I haven't been able to shut up about this game since i bought it (and i'm sure the lot of you have noticed) and its not because I want to be annoying, this is just the most fun i've had with a new game in some time. The last 1st party game i bought was probably Mario Galaxy (i'm not counting Excitebots, which was tons of fun but not from Nintendos top devs) and, surprisingly, i've been showing 3rd party software a lot of support this gen... but of course the majority of these games never match the quality of fun as Nintendo's. Until Rune Factory Frontier came along.
It was everything i expected it to be, but a lot more fun and engaging. I can't put the thing down when i start playing! Even with Mario Galaxy, it was easy to put down. I guess RFF just lends itself to a more adictive gameplay. The thing is, if it wasn't the slightest bit fun, it wouldn't be as hard to put down. Basically, I highly recommend this game to EVERYONE. It shouldn't be overlooked, seriously.
Buy Rune Factory Frontier. It's hardcore, it has infinate replay value because the game doesn't freakin' end. It keeps waggle as an optional minimum, for those of you who are picky about this sorta thing (Press A to use your tools/weapons..or waggle..or just use the classic controller and use A, still).
Sorry, but I got my fill of Rune factory with the first game.
Ok, ^he's the exception ;) I never played the first one. I heard about it, but didnt pay much attention until i found out it was basically a suped up Harvest Moon, but by the time i found out i heard a sequel was announced and was supposed to fix the stuff everyone hated about the first one. Never once seen the damn thing in stores (and i dont purchase stuff online) so RFF is my first time playing a game in the series. I'm LOVING it.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: Ian Sane on July 30, 2009, 04:56:34 PM
This is too much of the "every game is equal" mentality that videogame companies have. These are NOT AAA third party titles aimed at the core market. This are B-games that only stand out in the absense of AAA third party games. Take the five best Wii third party games and I'll bet they would look weak compared to the top third party games for the other systems for the last year alone. If there was one console that had all the games for the Wii, PS3 and Xbox 360 on it these games wouldn't sell then either. But in that case no one would make a big stink about it either because a title like MadWorld would be expected to be more of a cult hit and would try to make a profit from that kind of market. It's like if Capcom expected God Hand to be a huge system selling hit on the PS2.
If you look at the top tier of Wii titles it's pretty much just first party efforts. Now maybe you think Nintendo makes the best games so it tops the other consoles. But on the other consoles there are more titles in the top tier. Maybe those games aren't quite as good as Nintendo's but if you like the best stuff there is more to choose from that is at that level. If you want the best on the Wii, you're getting like two games a year.
The Cube didn't have very good third party support but you did get third party games of similar quality to Nintendo themselves. Rogue Leader, Soul Calibur II and the Resident Evil games could compete with Nintendo's first party efforts. The drop off on the Wii is much more steep. You have like five 10s and a whole lot of 7s while the PS360 has lots of 8s and 9s.
It could also just be that years of really bad third party support and Nintendo's perceived emphasis on the casual market (last year's infamous E3 for example) may have pigeonholed the Wii as the casual console that you keep around just to play Nintendo's own games. Honestly I only really encounter much interest in the Wii on Nintendo sites. General videogaming forums that tend to attract hardcore gamers tend to not pay much attention to the Wii, except when first party titles are announced or released. I found the Cube got caught in this rut as well as the machine you have for Nintendo games but really nothing else. It's like Nintendo games are a premium to a hardcore gamer as he has to buy a second console to get access to those games.
The Wii has such a bad third party reputation that the target market for these games possibly just assumes it's not worth looking into because when they bought their Wii all the third party games were PS2 ports and shitty Ubisoft games. "So third party X is releasing a Wii exclusive? It'll probably suck because nobody makes good Wii third party games. Hey a new Metroid! Good thing I bought that Wii for special occasions like this!" Even a name brand isn't going to attract attention because of the reputation for spin-offs.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: Plugabugz on July 30, 2009, 04:59:45 PM
This is too much of the "every game is equal" mentality that videogame companies have. These are NOT AAA third party titles aimed at the core market. This are B-games that only stand out in the absense of AAA third party games. Take the five best Wii third party games and I'll bet they would look weak compared to the top third party games for the other systems for the last year alone. If there was one console that had all the games for the Wii, PS3 and Xbox 360 on it these games wouldn't sell then either. But in that case no one would make a big stink about it either because a title like MadWorld would be expected to be more of a cult hit and would try to make a profit from that kind of market. It's like if Capcom expected God Hand to be a huge system selling hit on the PS2.
If you look at the top tier of Wii titles it's pretty much just first party efforts. Now maybe you think Nintendo makes the best games so it tops the other consoles. But on the other consoles there are more titles in the top tier. Maybe those games aren't quite as good as Nintendo's but if you like the best stuff there is more to choose from that is at that level. If you want the best on the Wii, you're getting like two games a year.
The Cube didn't have very good third party support but you did get third party games of similar quality to Nintendo themselves. Rogue Leader, Soul Calibur II and the Resident Evil games could compete with Nintendo's first party efforts. The drop off on the Wii is much more steep. You have like five 10s and a whole lot of 7s while the PS360 has lots of 8s and 9s.
I agree with this. Except, aside from Nintendo, those high marks and polished games are coming from smaller developers (World of Goo), or from larger ones who make a very good game as an accident (Zack & Wiki).
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 30, 2009, 10:08:13 PM
A lot of those 8/9 games on the Hi-Def systems aren't all that good. They were overhyped and were predestined for great scores regardless of their actual quality. Hey, that reminds me of that one Wii game in black and white, what was that, Madworld?
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 30, 2009, 10:13:31 PM
MadWorld was underhyped.
But, it debuted at $10 less than the typical High Drama game, on Standard Drama-priced console.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: BwrJim! on July 31, 2009, 12:41:01 AM
I wouldnt call Zack and Wiki and accident. It is a very well done game that was testing out new marketing strategies for capcom. Word of mouth and internet buzz without an real hype. They wanted to work this strategy to foster more and more money. In their games today, you can still see this trend.
ask seth
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: Peachylala on July 31, 2009, 01:26:53 AM
But, it debuted at $10 less than the typical High Drama game, on Standard Drama-priced console.
MadWorld is good, for a brawler. It doesn't hurt that the game was made by the guy who made VIEWTIFUL JOE and it uses the same graphical engine, which I absolutely loved.
But underhyped? Sega did pretty good with advertising, which in other words isn't blanant lying which they usually do. (y halo thr Sonic Unleashed)
@broodwars: When Nintendo is in the mood? So it's kind of like when I'm in the mood to play video games; they decide whether we deserve a bone or not. Like that.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: broodwars on July 31, 2009, 01:37:42 AM
@broodwars: When Nintendo is in the mood? So it's kind of like when I'm in the mood to play video games; they decide whether we deserve a bone or not. Like that.
Yeah, pretty much. If I didn't have faith that the good stuff would eventually be coming from Nintendo (particularly Zelda), I'd have sold off my Satisfaction-Deficient Wii long ago and gone completely Hardcore Dominated, Highly Developed, Heavily Destitute ( ;) ) gaming on my PS3. But every once in a while Nintendo still tosses us a Smash Bros. or Metroid or whatnot.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 31, 2009, 03:57:01 AM
"Sega did pretty good with advertising"
I disagree. Like some marketting campains in the past, the ad contents were fairly obscure and mostly wacky, not really getting the point (rather, the exciting parts) of the gameplay across. This traces all the way back to art/gameplay of the game, which (time and again, this sort of thing) is too intense to display in public (no casual actors performing motions while smiling, which quickly cut to scenes of men being cut in half). So, they're not showing the details of the "real" visuals, and they're not detailing its relationship with the Wii Remote gameplay. And those DeathWatch ads, beyond the Sportscaster guys it was hard to make out anything.
Actually, ESRB has to take part of the blame, cuz all the neat, graphic stuff was cut from the official public-audience trailers (at least in Amerika). Sega/Platinum went overboard to satisfy the ratings guidelines for game trailers. MadWorld also missed the E3 2008 window, meaning Sega missed an opportunity to interface with retailers earlier on.
Considering the fruits of the marketing campaign, i'd say the money was wasted since I'm under the impression that the enthusiast press did a much better job of selling the game than the ads did.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 31, 2009, 07:01:13 AM
Considering the fruits of the marketing campaign, i'd say the money was wasted since I'm under the impression that the enthusiast press did a much better job of selling the game than the ads did.
This is exactly what I meant when I said overhyped. The entire press adored this game and built it up to be something it could never be. It was the beacon of hope for hardcore Wii games ... until IGN put out their review and mentioned just how damn short it was. The walls then crumbled in on this game and many potential customers, like myself, held off and simply rented to get their fix.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: Tanatoes on July 31, 2009, 11:44:10 AM
Okay: I buy almost everything. Well, not the shevelware Wii party games and very rarely the movie tie-ins, but I do spend probably $500 a month on games at a minimum. And I have been generally disappointed in the Wii lineup in terms of epic lengthy and engrossing games. My favorite games I played in the last couple years were:
Fallout 3 (I'm still playing it about every day now.. just beat the Pitt DLC and am about to buy more.. it's a gift that keeps on giving and I haven't even completed the main game!)
Burnout Paradise (My favorite racing game of all time! So easy to just jump in and play any time and so much to explore and discover. I haven't bought the paid DLC yet, but I will probably do so soon.)
Mass Effect (A fairly short game, but with a grand and epic feel and some very good world building and writing behind it.)
Overlord (Hilarious and fun, some cool puzzles and again some great writing)
Assassin's Creed (A little repetitive as a game, but I simply LOVED exploring the vast cities and climbing all around.)
Bio Shock (Another quick game with stellar writing and world building. It's System Shock with a new coat of paint, and I LOVED IT!)
All of those are on the 360
On the Wii I've mostly been playing:
Animal Crossing City Folk (A port of a DS game. I play it about daily.)
Rock Band 2 (I'm not too good at it.. I've only just begun to use the orange button, but it's so much FUN!)
Tiger Woods '10. (It's still too new to say if it has lasting power, but I do love playing a round of golf with the M+)
And Harvest Moon Rune Factory.. which clearly has the longevity. Man does it have longevity. If I could only afford one game per year I would want either Fallout 3 or Rune Factory Wii.
But over all it feels like my Wii games are for shorter bursts and lack a kind of epic grandness that the 360 games on my top list offer. Not sure why that is. Hopefully when we start getting some bigger JRPGs on the Wii that will help. I'm very much looking forward to Chrystal Bearers, Dragon Quest 10 (I know, it's at least two or three years out) and Monster Hunter.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 31, 2009, 12:35:33 PM
Considering the fruits of the marketing campaign, i'd say the money was wasted since I'm under the impression that the enthusiast press did a much better job of selling the game than the ads did.
This is exactly what I meant when I said overhyped. The entire press adored this game and built it up to be something it could never be. It was the beacon of hope for hardcore Wii games ... until IGN put out their review and mentioned just how damn short it was. The walls then crumbled in on this game and many potential customers, like myself, held off and simply rented to get their fix.
I'm trying to make the distinction that because IGN (and let's not forget GoNintendo, a hype catalyst in bearded format) was the loudest voice for the game, the marketing campaign was lacking and thus the game was underhyped. In an extreme case, Ikaruga got a decent shout out from IGN, and a nearly nonexistant marketing campaign. If MadWorld had "real" overhype, we'd have seen more in-store/physical/media promotion, an extensive TV campaign that targetted a thought-out range of programming, AND it would have received decent coverage in multi-platipus gaming magazines. So even if IGN (who flex their muscles through the power of mere internet text) was silent about the title, MadWorld's product image still would've been tough not to notice -- and that's how PS3/360 game marketing is handled, thru decent execution of assault-the-customer promo imagery backed by big marketing budgets (cuz gaming forums and gaming press don't necessarily reach the public like good old fashioned Hollywood-style marketing does).
~~~~~
I remember when brawlers used to be button based, cost $70, and lasted about 2 hours. Times have changed.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: KDR_11k on July 31, 2009, 12:50:07 PM
We have no data on second month sales for The Conduit so we can't really say much about it. If it falls flat I suspect that the lame SP mode would have killed the word of mouth chances it may have had, many people don't go online so they'd only get SP, not even local MP with friends. Local MP would'vbe taken the focus away from the SP for offline gamers and simultaneously lead to cross-pollination of Wii gamers.
Again I remind everyone that Red Steel sold a million, World at War sold 500k (after a disappointing first month) and WiiWare FPSes shoot high up on the charts pretty quickly (actually not THAT quickly, hyped hardcore franchises shoot up faster but tend to drop back down much faster too while the FPSes had a lot of staying power outside of Japan).
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 31, 2009, 01:08:08 PM
Tanatoes, it's been a couple years since publishers/devs were struck by Wii's success in 2006/2007, and it's only this year that we're beginning to see some of the big-$ adventures from major publishers come out, and Nintendo using up its Mario/Zelda/Metroid GameCube sequels so early-on highlights the 2008 "gap." (Kart and Brawl covers a different sector: interweb multiplayer)
It's just a plain fact that outside Nintendo, companies simply did not commit to Wii, which is why there's "nothing there."
The notable few that did so far include the likes of small Japanese makers that have put out "big" games relative to their own typical output, things like Tenchu4 (Acquire), Arc Rise Fantasia (Marvelous), and maybe Fragile (Namco 5th string). Sega's original matoor attempts can also fall under this category too.
The major "proceed-with-caution" commitments from actual Big Game Makers are only starting to show up this year. Monster Hunter (Capcom), Silent Hill (Konami), FF Crystal Bearers (Square), and maybe Cursed Mountain (Deep Silver, if they really are dedicating talent and care to the project).
The Wii's life-to-date has been massive waves of unbalanced releases. I'm in a similar boat to you where I'll pickup games month to month without hesitation, being more time-strapped than cash-strapped. I have an arcade-like interest in acquiring and trying all these medium-project "experimental" Wii games (no, not the shovelware) for the sake of checking out different Wii Remote ideas and building a library with a wide variety of arcadey play styles. I don't regret passing up a lot of solid "play-it-safe" games that would be open to me by being a multi-platipus owner, cuz they look like improved versions of what I passed up last generation.
I put 4 more hours into Rune Factory Frontier last night. Still farming the Green Ruins =D
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on July 31, 2009, 01:23:51 PM
Quote
Yet to be fair, it's not really Nintendo's fault these games aren't selling. It's either: a) our fault because we bitch about the lack of hardcore games yet WE DON'T BUY THEM. b) 3rd Excuse Makers don't advertise them enough. c) Entertainment value and replayability. Conduit is good for an FPS... it's just so genetic, and Madworld entertains for only six hours.
You know the Wii is a great console when the company who makes it is just as confused as we are. I love you so much, Nintendo. :3
To be fair it really is Nintendo’s fault. I love the Wii, but I can see it for what it is. It has great Nintendo Hardcore games. It has fun casual multiplayer games, and it has some good quality B type games (Madworld, Conduit).
The problem started with the SNES. Nintendo was on top of the world. And because of this they were able to stick to very basic business principles. Everything that we do makes us money(usually lots). I’m not complaining, good businesses make money and they rake in a lot of my money. But the problem is, Microsoft and Sony play differently. They release consoles with features that far outstrip their price point (whether you want the features or not) and they are willing to pay $$ to get AAA games because they want their systems to be the defacto hardcore game system.
Developers were forced to deal with Nintendo with the SNES because it dominated the market. Then came the N64, and the costs associated to deal with Nintendo went through the roof. Developers came to Nintendo and said we’ll make an N64 game if you will help us out. And Nintendo said don’t let the door hit you on the way out. So they walked over to Sony (and then Microsoft) because the others were more than willing to do things to help developers get more sales and develop better games. Nintendo for their part thought they could fill the void, but 3d games takes eons longer than 2d games do for development. So us Nintendo fans started getting used to game droughts.
Then Sony domination started. Almost of the quality games (other than Nintendo and a couple of third parties) were home to the Playstation. Well, diehard Nintendo fans will most certainly have a Nintendo brand console, but most hardcore players either became Sony fans or And fans (owners of a Nintendo and a Sony or eventually Microsoft console).
These are the hardcore fans you see in today’s market. I’m not doubting that they own a Wii, but I’d be surprised if they own only a Wii. So then what comes up is where do the big players with AAA games put their games. This is what runs through their head.
1. The hardcore market is probably greater with x360 and PS3. As most Wii hardcore owners probably own one of those, and the self declared hardest hardcore wouldn’t own a Wii(image issues and all). 2. Sony and Microsoft will probably give us a discount on licensing fees to offset the costs (Nintendo won’t because that’s uncharacteristic of them) and we can charge 20% more than on the Nintendo console to offset the higher developmental costs associated with an HD game. 3. If we just develop for all consoles the Wii game sales will suffer because: a. We don’t really have the resources to develop two engines at once (generally an xbox to PS port or vice versa would cost less than rebuilding the engine for the Wii.) So if we go the 3 game route, the Wii version is going to look pitiful and have poor physics. b. The hardcore don’t want the Wii version. Graphics matter to hardcore fans. If controls were the same, hardcore would pick up the game with better graphics (budgets aside). And maybe you can blame this on the 3rd parties but Wii-mote is not accurate enough for most games. Anything that uses IR (FPS) is the exception but waggle for a serious competition falls short because it is not accurate enough.
I know I’ll get ragged on for this, but I’m a Madden fan. So naturally I tried out the Wii version. I may even try out the 2010 version because it has IR passing and uses mostly button pushes. But the first versions of Madden sucked because quite frankly there was no classic control option. An example, I’m Peyton Manning driving down against the Titans looking to seal up the AFC Championship game. I see Marvin Harrison streaking a post across the middle. I go to throw… wait, I go to throw… wait, now I’m sacked, oh I fumbled, oh they are scoring a TD to put the game away. But I’m sure that happens to Peyton all the time. Going down an important stretch of the game and the wii-mote malfunctions changing everything.
So in conclusion, no AAA developer is going to put their best stuff on Wii. The only way it would sell is with an exclusive so the hardcore players (which probably have all systems or at least a subset) will have to buy the Wii version. They know Sony and Microsoft will help them out but Nintendo won’t help them out even for an exclusive. So some of the extra development costs will be offset in choosing Sony/Microsoft. AAA games don’t start will 100 million dollar budgets, they start as good concept B games. Those are the games the Wii will continue to get because you can make a Wii game cheaper and the goal is to have the hardcore purchase it because it is Wii only and they are interested and hope it catches with the casual crowd which the Wii maintains.
I’m not saying Nintendo should just go throwing money everywhere, but Capcom (a known AAA developer some opinions aside) could have easily developed SF IV or RE5 or DMC 4 or on and on, but Nintendo hasn’t developed the relationship and they certainly haven’t cultivated that market on their own machine. To cultivate it would take time. We saw them almost do it when they bought Silicon Knights but again $ spoke to Nintendo with low sales and they decided to sell Silicon Knights to focus on what they knew instead of trying to develop that market.
Monster Hunter is an exception for two reasons. A: The main customer base is Japan and Nintendo is killing in Japan. And 2, the gameplay is much like Pokémon which means, that Nintendo has inadvertently created an audience for this game.
Silent Hill is tossing us a bone like Remake. It’ll probably be good. But it’s been remade so many times for PS/PSP that they really have no where else to take the series but to hope that they can reach a new audience with the Wii.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: SixthAngel on July 31, 2009, 01:30:16 PM
You put out B games you get B sales. These games budgets are probably almost overtaken by Halo's advertising budget. The real kicker is that if The Conduit sold ten bazillion we wouldn't be getting big budget fps. Instead we would keep getting low budget fps because they would know that is enough to sell tons of copies.
I find it interesting that the "hardcore" games have essentially become pc games. Bioshock, Mass Effect, Fallout 3, Halo, Gears of War. These are all games developed by pc devs who jumped to the xbox usually because the xbox is essentilally a pc, making ports and development very easy and very familiar. That is one of several reasons why the Wii isn't getting these "hardcore" games, many are basically made by pc developers.
That is why the Conduit was a big deal. It is a fps which is the pc's and xbox's biggest type of game (and most "hardcore"). Why is it somehow considered the biggest and most important genre despite being small on the most popular console last generation the ps2?
A lot of the arguments I even see for the hd aka "hardcore" consoles seem to be the old pc standby arguments for higher resolution. Console owners in the past laughed at this argument because they didn't care.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: SixthAngel on July 31, 2009, 01:37:08 PM
These are the hardcore fans you see in today’s market. I’m not doubting that they own a Wii, but I’d be surprised if they own only a Wii. So then what comes up is where do the big players with AAA games put their games. This is what runs through their head.
1. The hardcore market is probably greater with x360 and PS3. As most Wii hardcore owners probably own one of those, and the self declared hardest hardcore wouldn’t own a Wii(image issues and all).
So in conclusion, no AAA developer is going to put their best stuff on Wii. The only way it would sell is with an exclusive so the hardcore players (which probably have all systems or at least a subset) will have to buy the Wii version.
You seriously overestimate the number of people who own multiple consoles. You act like there are millions of them who are actually responsible for games getting huge sales or small sales. There aren't that many. (double post but at least its a different topic then my previous)
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on July 31, 2009, 01:53:30 PM
A lot of the arguments I even see for the hd aka "hardcore" consoles seem to be the old pc standby arguments for higher resolution. Console owners in the past laughed at this argument because they didn't care.
Not because they didn't care, but because 1. TV's were typically much larger in size (so they didn't have to sit 1 ft from the PC monitor.) 2. TV's are generally in the family room where most people spend most of their time and their is room for entertaining/friends. 3. In the past almost nobody had a TV cabable of high resolutions. 4. PC's don't have the best controllers.
Console owners laughed because they were the "cool kids". Yeah, go with your high res game sitting right by the screen by yourself with the no name controller. Most people want higher resolution. Question is whether they think it is worth the price.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on July 31, 2009, 02:14:49 PM
These are the hardcore fans you see in today’s market. I’m not doubting that they own a Wii, but I’d be surprised if they own only a Wii. So then what comes up is where do the big players with AAA games put their games. This is what runs through their head.
1. The hardcore market is probably greater with x360 and PS3. As most Wii hardcore owners probably own one of those, and the self declared hardest hardcore wouldn’t own a Wii(image issues and all).
So in conclusion, no AAA developer is going to put their best stuff on Wii. The only way it would sell is with an exclusive so the hardcore players (which probably have all systems or at least a subset) will have to buy the Wii version.
You seriously overestimate the number of people who own multiple consoles. You act like there are millions of them who are actually responsible for games getting huge sales or small sales. There aren't that many. (double post but at least its a different topic then my previous)
It's really unprovable, but yes, I would believe that the # of people that owns at least 2 consoles in somewhere in the millions.
My math is approximately 300 million people in the US. Average household size of 2.6 means about 115 million households.
According to VGChartz (I know this will get discounted) there are about 24 million Wiis, 18 million 360's, and 9 million PS3's sold. Now if there were no duplicate purchases there would be a new console in 44.4% of all US homes. I believe that is really high. Additionally, if you look at where they say it ended, there were 50 M PS2's, 16 M xboxes, and 13 million GCs. That would be 68.7% of all households is where we should end up. Anyways I was focusing on hardcore users. I consider those to be people that game >10 hrs a week and buy >10 games a year and I consider there to be less than 5 million of those people. But if they spend that much time gaming and that much $ on gaming, I would think that yes, one console would not be enough for them.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: SixthAngel on July 31, 2009, 02:31:56 PM
Most people want higher resolution. Question is whether they think it is worth the price.
Most people don't even know the 360 can even output hd. (http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3161833)Only 30% even know about it. That means less, probably far less actually use the feature. How is that going to to be a good way to sell to new people when the current owners don't even know about it much less use it.
Most people don't give a **** about hd.
I don't want to get in a quoting war so I'm going to stop after this.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on July 31, 2009, 04:12:44 PM
I don't want to spend a lot of time on this, but if you had two tvs, same manufacturer, quality, cost, etc. One is 1080p and the other is 480i, the consumer will purchase the 1080p one 100% of the time. Most of the time, people are not willing to pay the premium associated with 1080p because 480i is good enough. Not equal, not better.
I found the article you specified.http://www.ask.com/bar?q=how+many+xbox+360+users+use+high+definition&page=1&qsrc=0&ab=0&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.1up.com%2Fdo%2FnewsStory%3FcId%3D3161833
The article is over two years old. During that time the # of people with 360's went from about 6M to 18M. Also, the # of people with an HDTV went from about 20% to somewhere in the 40-45% range. http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/16014.cfm You honestly would have trouble if you didn't want at least a 720p tv as my local Walmart has no SDTVs in stock. So I believe that overall knowledge of HD and things HD has gone up.
Also, I strongly question the validity of the poll. The 360 target demographic is 13-25 years old. Which means that for the 13-18 year olds, the poll probably polled the parents which will never use the device or maintain any knowledge of the device other than their kid wanted it. For the 19-25 year olds, they probably don't have a land line which means they would have been excluded from the poll. If 60% of people use xbox online (as indicated by Microsoft), I would think a similiar # of people use the HD capability of the machine. Maybe that's high, but certainly at this time more than 30% of the people are using the HD status of the machine now.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 31, 2009, 07:05:21 PM
The problem with the HD argument is that even though people continue to buy HDTV's and HD consoles, they are still hooking things up to the TV with regular composite cables most of the time. Most people don't notice the change in resolution until someone hooks it up right for them. THe main drae of the HDTV is the widescreen, the size of the TV and how slim it is in comparison to the TV they are upgrading from. HD is just a buzz word for widescreen for a lot of folks right now.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on July 31, 2009, 07:36:16 PM
I would agree that most people do not appropriately use their HDTV correctly. But I don't think it is as prevalent in people under 25 which is the target demographic for xbox360 and PS3. So yeah, if the 40 year old father hooked up the 360, it may not be optimized, but the college age student struggling with technology? I'm sure someone can bring up an example of one, but overall getting a 360 online is as complicated as hooking it up correctly to an HDTV. The differing factor is if the individual actually has an HDTV or just online service. Additionally, a 360 on a SDTV will look better than the best Wii games. The 360 just has more power which means more happening on screen, better physics, better antilasing, more draw, etc.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: KDR_11k on August 01, 2009, 01:39:59 AM
But it does contradict the "most people want HD" claim.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 01, 2009, 02:39:54 AM
But it does contradict the "most people want HD" claim.
That's the thing though. People DO want HD, just most people don't realize that HD is more than just a widescreen TV, 1080p is more than a number on the box, and HDMI is an actual cable that needs to be purchased and used.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: Plugabugz on August 01, 2009, 07:57:42 AM
And in the current climate, 1080p means moneyhats that nobody wants to spend.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: Tanatoes on August 01, 2009, 09:46:58 AM
I think the only argument I've seen so far that makes me want a HD setup is that it can be made compatible with polarized 3-D glasses. I recently bought the DVD special edition for Coraline, which I saw in the theater in polarized 3-D, and was disappointed with how awful the red/green 3-D effects and picture were. I would seem that the game of the new James Cameon Avatar movie is in 3-D but only to those who are using HDMI cables for their setup. If this becomes a trend in gaming then I can EASILY see myself investing in a HD television, and even making the leap to blu-ray (which I've seen as largely superfluous until now.)
Until then 1080i and 720p are fine for me. (My Wii in the livingroom isn't even set to widescreen, it's hooked to an old CRT I bought off a friend about 12 years ago via composite cables!)
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on August 01, 2009, 10:51:43 AM
Apparently, not everyone shares your thoughts. Obviously alot of people are hurting or scared, but alot of people are still spending $. HDTVs are cheaper than ever, as well, after the anti-trust fines that most manufacturers got hit with last year. $500-$600 will buy you a great 30-40 inch TV. Not that $500 is cheap, but if you have been wanting a new TV or are now going to be spending alot more time at home, consumers haven't been shy to buy in.
Also, 720p is high def. While certainly 1080p is better quality, most consumers depending on the size of their screen/distance from screen, would not notice as much as a difference as from 480i to 720p. Another factor is few cable channels broadcast 1080p and only blu ray provides 1080p. Most 360/PS3 games only come in 720p, with few coming in 1080p.
I'm not a big fan of 3d television until they make it where I don't have to wear goggles period. When they start pushing the 3d sets though, you'll probably see them start at $10k and work themselves down to more affordable levels years later. So that tech is a ways off from mainstream.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: Plugabugz on August 01, 2009, 12:01:50 PM
Interesting! I think in america at least thats to do with the digital transition more than anything else.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: KDR_11k on August 01, 2009, 02:05:04 PM
Of course TV sales (I don't think they'd sell SDTVs these days anyway) aren't impacted by the recession, what matters more is whether people actually base their gaming purchases on whether something is HD.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: BwrJim! on August 01, 2009, 06:33:19 PM
ugh.. so much too read.. first things first.. "and the self declared hardest hardcore wouldn’t own a Wii(image issues and all)." talking about a certain shia are we?
the use of HDMI is just security protocol. its too bad they are ususing that for the polarized 3d effect. (speaking of which, I just got a 8800gt coming to me new for 71 dollars.. now if only my tv can output at 120hz. hmmm) because a lot of people wont realize they need a very impressive piece of monitor..
with the wii are confused. Nintendo bankrolled on the penetration market back in 2006 on the TV.. its actually done rather well in that reguard. and in the next transition, nintendo will bump up to the 360 standards most likely and be good with that. Why isnt the gamecube.. hehe, that was a true mistake, I ment wii.. hehe.. thats funny.. anyways my guess is as good as yours, but it most likely has something to do witht he super duper 64. (did you know that the 64 was the first in nintendos line that offered a grfx chip that can adapt new tech as they come out! its continued to today with the wii, even if it cant process it well, it can still do it)
I love my wii, its my favorite system, its just too damn bad Street Fighter isnt on it.. YET!!!
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: smallsharkbigbite on August 01, 2009, 09:50:15 PM
ugh.. so much too read.. first things first.. "and the self declared hardest hardcore wouldn’t own a Wii(image issues and all)." talking about a certain shia are we?
Lol, did you see his quote about his mom. http://perezhilton.com/2009-05-04-shias-mom-naked-and-scary
I think everyone is reading too much into the HD effect. Yes, it matters. I have a PS3 and a Wii and if the game comes out for both, I am 95% likely to buy it for the PS3. Some people will look at the 360 being HD and buy choose the 360 over the Wii thus causing less demand for hardcore titles on the Wii. So yes, HD has an impact. I don't know how much but it is certainly there. It also doesn't help that review sites always compare Wii graphics to the HD systems. The best they typically say for Wii graphics are clean, artistic, and good colors.
I think the more important issue is that Nintendo has not tried to get those types of games on their systems for years. Nintendo is top class. But take away their games, and the only thing I can think of as must have titles is Bond/Perfect Dark for the N64, then Resi series for the gamecube (which technically all the games except 0 are on the PS2). When you ignore the hardcore market for 2.5 generations (N64, gamecube, Wii thusfar) the hardcore jumped ship. Most of us die hard Nintendo fans started with the NES/SNES glory years and have stuck with Nintendo through. The playstation generation would rather have the Halo's/Devil May Cry's/Metal Gears/GTAs than Mario/Zelda/Metroid. When Nintendo has a an equivilent of those series, and it's exclusive, then they will start to get the hardcore back. While Conduit is fun, it's certainly not an equivelant of what is available on other systems.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: rbtr on August 01, 2009, 10:36:49 PM
Monster Hunter is an exception for two reasons. A: The main customer base is Japan and Nintendo is killing in Japan. And 2, the gameplay is much like Pokémon which means, that Nintendo has inadvertently created an audience for this game.
Allow me to interject...
Monster Hunter plays NOTHING like pokemon. I'd compare it more to zelda, but even that is really far off. It's a super difficult, unforgiving, clunky controlled (in true capcom style) action RPG, where you SLAY (not capture and use) monsters. Nintendo has nothing that even resembles this game (except MAYBE zelda).
Continue the other argument as normal...
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: mac<censored> on August 01, 2009, 11:02:34 PM
I agree that 3rd parties are "tending towards" crappier games on the wii, and this obviously hurts sales.
3rd party devs simply seem very confused about what to do with the wii, and futz around randomly releasing half-hearted attempts at games. Making a good title requires focus, dedication, time, and money, and often all of those seem to be missing.
It's a shame because obviously some of these devs are very capable of such, but indecision and fear about what exactly the wii market is seems to be making them very reluctant to dedicate the resources required to make truly good titles. The massive sales of the wii tempt them, but the fear paralyzes them....
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: KDR_11k on August 02, 2009, 02:16:41 AM
They seem to be stuck in this mindset where they need something to copy. Since they consider the Wii completely different from other systems they'll only copy Wii games which obviously limits their options.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 02, 2009, 05:36:56 PM
Samus destroys planets for her own selfish indulgence.
Title: Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
Post by: KDR_11k on August 03, 2009, 01:47:07 AM
And she only does it AFTER all possible threats on the planet have been laboriously eliminated.
