Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: KDR_11k on July 26, 2009, 02:11:16 PM
Title: What is immersion?
Post by: KDR_11k on July 26, 2009, 02:11:16 PM
I've been wondering about what immersion is. I wanted to say that often gestures are more immersive than buttons but that would require immersion to mean that you feel like you are the one doing the actions in the game world and many, MANY games fail badly at that with extensive cutscene use and prescripted events yet I don't think I've seen people call those not immersive. So what does that actually mean?
Title: Re: What is immersion?
Post by: broodwars on July 26, 2009, 02:35:20 PM
To me, immersion is a total suspension of disbelief, where the player feels like they become part of the game world by nature of a well-constructed and entertaining world. It's not merely a question of how the player interacts with the game world, but that the interaction feels meaningful and the player feels like they can make an impact on that world. For example, a game I tout regularly as a great example of "immersion" is Final Fantasy X. The world of Spira is absurd if we were to judge it by the rules of our universe. However, I find the suspension of disbelief incredibly easy because the game world is completely focused around two core design elements: a dominant religion with a very detailed history and the circular shape. Everything in Spira revolves around these 2 elements, leading to a very organic-feeling world that feels like it has a history and that it is worth exploring. Add in a group of very likeable characters (yes, Tidus is annoying but his story does an excellent job of meshing with Yuna's) whose story all weaves together to reinforce a single decisive story (Yuna's pilgrimage to Zanarkand) that in turn revolves around those same 2 core elements; excellent production values; and an entertaining battle sysem and you have a very solid and worthwhile experience.
To me, a very carefully-constructed and believable game world does more to pull me into the experience than any waggling of a motion controller. To use a Nintendo example, look at how well Majora's Mask's game world is constructed around time and the individual character stories. It is immersive because it is a consistent and reasonably-believeable world that doesn't contradict itself and feels like what I do in that game world matters. I can touch the lives of these NPC characters and make a difference.
Bah, there I go rambling again. ;)
Title: Re: What is immersion?
Post by: Mop it up on July 26, 2009, 02:42:57 PM
It's yet another one of those words which seems to have a different definition depending on who you ask so it is meaningless to me.
Title: Re: What is immersion?
Post by: ShyGuy on July 26, 2009, 03:03:55 PM
I like what Miyamoto said about the subject.
Quote
"What role does realism play in videogames I ask myself. Is this image more interesting? Sometimes.. however, what if a "detailed" hand with 5 fingers is catching a bottle but the fingers pass right through it? Is this still realistic? Rather than to show each meticulous and tiny detail of a finger, it is more important to make the end action look more credible by working on the movement and functionality of the arms and the hand in relation to the object."
Title: Re: What is immersion?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 27, 2009, 01:29:33 AM
Yeah I just don't know anymore.
So I go for "arousing."
Title: Re: What is immersion?
Post by: EasyCure on July 27, 2009, 11:59:03 AM
It's that company that tried to sue over rumble technology, no?
Title: Re: What is immersion?
Post by: Ian Sane on July 27, 2009, 12:57:31 PM
I always saw "immersion" as a bullshit word. It has a literal meaning but it's just tossed around by game companies so in that context it means nothing. In fact it's the sort of word that when it is used to describe something I lose interest - like this game is so lame that they can't come up with a better way to describe it other than a cliche bullshit word.
Even if you take it in it's most literal meaning I find immersion is vastly overrated. The goal of designing a game shouldn't be to make it immersive but rather make it enjoyable to the player. Immersion may be part of that but it's not a requirement. Something like Tetris never doesn't feel like a game but that's okay because the game is a blast. For true "immersion" wouldn't every game have to be first person? I have NEVER played a game where for even a second I wasn't completely aware that I was playing a videogame. What sort of drooling simpleton would?
If I designer is to take anything from "immersion" I would say the most important thing for me is that I feel like I'm in control. I want responsive controls that behave exactly like I expect every time. While I do always notice that I'm playing a game there are games where I don't really notice the controller. It isn't button "A" it's the jump button. I'm not manipulating a control stick I'm moving Mario around. Motion control is theoretically more immersive but it actually isn't at all. It's too unresponsive and prone to misinterpreting gestures. So I don't feel like I'm in complete control. One thing I think Nintendo completely misses is that the small amount of effort involved in a traditional controller makes it more natural because it actually feels more direct. I don't really notice my thumb moving because it's so subtle. So it's more like brain says "attack" and the character on the screen (ie: ME) swings the sword. With motion control it's brain says "attack", arm moves, character swings sword.
Stuff like the world behaving correctly with proper physics and no clipping and stuff is more a quality thing for me. If a game is glitching up it isn't that it ruins the immersion it's just that it hurts my faith in the product. It's hard to enjoy a game that's clearly glitchy because you're afraid the whole thing is going to crash on you and in today's world of long games with saved progress, losing your save can ruin a game for you.
Title: Re: What is immersion?
Post by: KDR_11k on July 27, 2009, 02:41:31 PM
I don't think gestures were the beginning of the loss of control (for reference, I find gestures stupid just as I find using an a-stick for digital input stupid in most cases), many 3D games take control from you to make the character movement more realistic. I can't count how many times Mario ran off a platform because he doesn't turn on the spot and move but runs in a tight circle which often goes past the platform (maybe that was just the DS version). I can't count how many jumps I missed because it was just plain impossible to judge where I was in 3D space compared to the involved surfaces or because the air control directed me away from the platform. Motion is analog input and should usually be used for analog actions and if it's just varying your throw strength for grenades. Analog inputs on digital actions tend to cause problems because they're usually designed for differentiated responses, not quick 0-100 movements. I did see some good digital motion implementations though, mostly on things that weren't as time critical as attacks. Missing a punch by a split second can mean much, a split second difference in reloading usually doesn't.
Anyway, my "gaming zone" strips all the decoration away and turns the game into a set of mechanics, probably the reason I found no game other than Project Zero scary (because in PZ the enemies are actually scary to fight because you can never be sure where they are and don't feel in control of the situation) and why I hate most stealth games (recognizing viewing areas is extremely difficult and I often misjudge them which is an instant game over in stealth games).
Title: Re: What is immersion?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 27, 2009, 03:10:30 PM
Just to add some context, the motions used in NMH, MadWord, and Tenchu4 are more akin to Street Fighter's half/quarter circle/wacko dragon punch inputs rather than the generalization of a "button press action" that Twilight Princess tried to enforce. The point being the games ask you to successfully perform `complex` input actions in order to achieve *special* results.
In any case, those 3 games were still "traditional" 3rd-person action gaming approaches with motions used to accent the gameplay. They weren't attempting what Red Steel tried to do in the first place. I happen to like this Traditional+ approach.
Title: Re: What is immersion?
Post by: Mop it up on July 28, 2009, 12:02:23 AM
"What role does realism play in videogames I ask myself. Is this image more interesting? Sometimes.. however, what if a "detailed" hand with 5 fingers is catching a bottle but the fingers pass right through it? Is this still realistic? Rather than to show each meticulous and tiny detail of a finger, it is more important to make the end action look more credible by working on the movement and functionality of the arms and the hand in relation to the object."
That guy is all kinds of genius. Too many games focus on the technical aspect of graphics rather than on good animation and the little details which bring a world to life.
Title: Re: What is immersion?
Post by: Smash_Brother on July 30, 2009, 04:30:01 PM
"Immersion" is a concept understood by very few developers, most of whom believe it lies in pretty graphics.
I've been more immersed by a 2D MMO with 5-frame character animations than I ever was with WoW.
Title: Re: What is immersion?
Post by: Pale on July 30, 2009, 05:27:27 PM
Immersion is defined as "deep mental involvement".
It has absolutely nothing to do with "realism". A person becomes fully immersed in a game if all other thoughts leave their brain.
Therefore, it is totally realistic to say that Tetris features a high level of immersion, because the level of concentration required is extremely high.
Also, one could also say that complicated Wii gestures go against immersion because it causes a player's mind to leave the game and think about the physical gesture. However, great Wii gestures, (like the grapple in Prime 3) add to it because you are less likely to have to think about what to do to cause the desired result.
Title: Re: What is immersion?
Post by: NWR_pap64 on July 30, 2009, 05:42:29 PM
In other words... Immersion is just a fancy word to explain how much a game can suck the life out of you and still be happy and feel as if you accomplished something.
Title: Re: What is immersion?
Post by: Stogi on July 30, 2009, 06:18:44 PM
I remember playing burnout last gen and having my heartbeat spike as I went faster and faster. My full level of immersion was shown to me once I saw an accident coming that I couldn't avoid, so I braced for impact.
That's immersion. It's where you are not controlling a character, it's where you are that character. And that can only happen if the controls are transparent and the virtual world comes to life.
Title: Re: What is immersion?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 30, 2009, 06:27:39 PM
There are days when I'm really immersed eating a cheeseburger.
Title: Re: What is immersion?
Post by: Plugabugz on July 30, 2009, 07:14:45 PM
To me something is immersive when i feel like i'm in the universe that the game is set in, and not a person holding a controller pretending to be that person.
Title: Re: What is immersion?
Post by: KDR_11k on July 31, 2009, 11:42:35 AM
Also, one could also say that complicated Wii gestures go against immersion because it causes a player's mind to leave the game and think about the physical gesture. However, great Wii gestures, (like the grapple in Prime 3) add to it because you are less likely to have to think about what to do to cause the desired result.
Generally goes for controls you have to think about IMO. Quicktime events often require translating the onscreen symbol into a button which can require significant amounts of thinking since games never require you to remember more than the button position/feel outside of QTEs so translating the icon isn't a natural act. Gestures you can remember or instantly recognize should work fine while gestures you have to recall would hurt it.
Title: Re: What is immersion?
Post by: Smash_Brother on July 31, 2009, 02:12:53 PM
