Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: jakeOSX on June 17, 2009, 04:33:33 PM
Title: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: jakeOSX on June 17, 2009, 04:33:33 PM
so i was staring at my unplayed gamecube games and was thinking about how that was a big selling point for the Wii.
but we are fairly far into the generation now. Sony has dumped hardware PS2 compatibility, XBox only had limited to begin with, which leaves the Wii.
So allow me to go out on a limb.
Wii Lite to debute. It will remove all of the GameCube hardware, but increase the internal memory to four gigs (ish).
This should allow the price to go down. Memory is cheep these days.
perhaps M+ or Wiispeak in there if the price stayed the same, but that i'm not so sure about.
the idea would be to lower the price of the Wii, as people want/think, etc, but not to make the Wii 2 jump (like HD or something). People who have a Wii won't be getting a new one (since Wii =\= DS) but those that don't would have an incentive too (the lower price).
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: that Baby guy on June 17, 2009, 04:44:05 PM
If you removed the Wii's GC backwards compatibility, you'd be taking out it's processor and graphics chip/card. When you're playing a GC game on the Wii, the processor literally works at the same speed and efficiency as the Gamecube's did, rather than at full power, as it would with a Wii game.
This is why developers have stated before that the Wii is GC 2.0 or even 1.5. It's literally more of the same.
Wii hardware has not gone down in price for one reason: It still sells. It sells at the price margin it is for sale at now. Sales are just now beginning to slow, and so price might lower in some time, but it has nothing to do with the components of the hardware, and everything to do with demand.
Alternatively, the Wii could be re-released in a black color, like it will in August in Japan. That could raise demand for the Wii, and keep the price from needing to be lowered. Nintendo likes to use new colors or package new software to raise demand rather than price drops, and like to hold on to pricing as long as it can sell.
Edit: They could easily increase the onboard flash memory from 512 MB to something higher, but there's not much reason we'd want that. The larger the flash memory, the higher premium we'll have to play. You'd be better off expanding the memory on your own through the SD card slot, looking for a deal online, or something similar. It's characteristic of consoles that when the console's maker does something the user should be able to do on their own, a premium is charged, and functionality is lowered. For example, look at the 360's HDD and contrast it to the PS3. With the 360, you need an official 360 drive, a device that comes in only a few sizes, and each is very overpriced. With the PS3, you can connect your own drive, which is much less expensive, and can be used with a computer in conjunction, among other things.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 17, 2009, 04:57:32 PM
To summarize all that.
The Wii processor is a beefed up GC processor. If you remove the GC elements from Wii, all you will have left is the outer casing.
The Wii processor literally slows down to GC speed and limits the RAM to what the GC used, when playing GC games. Wii really is two GC's duct taped together.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: stevey on June 17, 2009, 05:03:07 PM
The only thing they can remove is the GC ports on the Wii's top, and they won't do that because they use them for maintenance and repair of old Wiis.
+Nintendo needs a reason to make more wavebirds For The Wii!
The Wii processor is a beefed up GC processor. If you remove the GC elements from Wii, all you will have left is the outer casing.
The Wii processor literally slows down to GC speed and limits the RAM to what the GC used, when playing GC games. Wii really is three GC's duct taped together.
fixed
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: jakeOSX on June 17, 2009, 05:29:06 PM
hm. well that shoots the idea. i swore the wii worked like the DS where there was a second chip in there for game cube compatibility. Then you are right, removing the ports doesn't save enough to change the Wii.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Stratos on June 17, 2009, 05:46:48 PM
They don't have to remove backwards compatibility to make a Wii Lite. I think your idea of a Wii Lite, Jake, is still a good one to consider. Just add a new incentive. Perhaps more of a 'Wii DSi'. Add something like the cameras were added on the DS.
Though the M+ may actually be the new "DSi-esque" incentive for Wii, just packaged separately.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: ShyGuy on June 17, 2009, 05:51:45 PM
Make a WiiGO by removing the optical drive and just have an SD card slot and a bigger internal storage. Make Wii-Sports-Fit-Play-Resort-Music downloadable titles.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Ian Sane on June 17, 2009, 06:24:24 PM
Quote
Make a WiiGO by removing the optical drive and just have an SD card slot and a bigger internal storage. Make Wii-Sports-Fit-Play-Resort-Music downloadable titles.
So you want Nintendo to make a variation of the Wii that is completely incompatible with 99.999% of the Wii games released? That isn't really a Wii at all since it can't play any Wii games you can just go buy on the shelf.
Plus the target demo for this seems unlikely to be tech savy enough to take their Wii online to download the finite amount of games they can play. A downloadable only model if anything is more for the hardcore, who would never buy this.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: that Baby guy on June 17, 2009, 07:04:05 PM
To be fair, several Wii games are depressingly small. Shockingly teeny tiny. I'll post the ones on my list:
Animal Crossing: .5 GB Castle of Shikigami III: 1.75 GB Dragon Quest Swords: 2.51 GB Guitar Hero III: 3.81 GB Guitar Hero Aerosmith: 3.56 GB Mario Kart: 2.79 GB Sonic and the Black Knight: 3.41 GB Sonic Unleashed: 3.82 GB Super Mario Galaxy: 3.44 GB Super Paper Mario: 0.48 GB Brawl: 7.11 GB House of the Dead 2 & 3: 3.26 GB Wii Sports: 0.32 GB
The grand total of all of those is 32.94
Don't get me wrong, that's not a complete list of all the games I own, but it's the list of the ones I know the actual data size of right now. Essentially, only Brawl is larger than a standard DVD (4.97 GB), and most games don't reach more than 4 GB's, some are less than one. If Nintendo were to release a Wii that forewent an optical drive for an HDD, it would work, to be fair. The issue, still, would be cost. How much does a DVD drive that can read that special laser printing on a WOD (the Wii discs are DVD's with a unique burn right along the inner ring, so they're called WOD), and how much does, say, a 64 GB drive cost? Actually, the real truth is that for most users, a 20 GB drive would work, as long as you could expand or install your own. Maybe the price actually would balance out....
Still, it's not a good idea. Market wouldn't jump on that too easily, and install/download times would be atrocious, in many cases.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Mop it up on June 17, 2009, 07:09:10 PM
I knew Mario Kart Wii could've had more tracks. I'm kind of surprised that Super Mario Galaxy doesn't use all of the space available... makes me wonder just how huge the sequel is going to be.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 17, 2009, 07:11:21 PM
What is your source for those sizes? I seriously doubt that Animal Crossing: City Folk is only 500MB or Super Paper Mario is only 480MB.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Mop it up on June 17, 2009, 07:12:51 PM
It makes sense to me. Animal Crossing has very few game areas and Super Paper Mario has the graphics of a Super NES game.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: ShyGuy on June 17, 2009, 07:20:34 PM
Make a WiiGO by removing the optical drive and just have an SD card slot and a bigger internal storage. Make Wii-Sports-Fit-Play-Resort-Music downloadable titles.
So you want Nintendo to make a variation of the Wii that is completely incompatible with 99.999% of the Wii games released? That isn't really a Wii at all since it can't play any Wii games you can just go buy on the shelf.
Plus the target demo for this seems unlikely to be tech savy enough to take their Wii online to download the finite amount of games they can play. A downloadable only model if anything is more for the hardcore, who would never buy this.
This is why the PSP Go will fail.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Deguello on June 17, 2009, 09:59:20 PM
Cutting out retail at this point would be absolutely retarded. This is why the PSP Go will absolutely fail.
However you have stumbled upon a good idea for the next Wii console! No, not digital downloads. Cartidges! Yes, Nintendo should go back to carts.
As far as I'm concerned, Optical media has far overshot any gamer's or developer's real need for space. Solid State prices are dropping very quickly, with a 4 GB SD card running about $5 in some places. By 2012, the price of... say a 16-32GB SD card could be around $8 wholesale. And that is PLENTY for video games. Sure you won't be able to get a Dual-Layer Blu-Ray's worth of space, but that much space isn't necessary anyway.
The Benefit of these carts would be the joyous loading times of the DS, less moving parts which means little chance for DREs, more reliable hardware, a retail presence, and the loveliness of actually owning a product you bought with money.
It's really a no-brainer to me.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 17, 2009, 10:01:46 PM
Cutting out retail at this point would be absolutely retarded. This is why the PSP Go will absolutely fail.
However you have stumbled upon a good idea for the next Wii console! No, not digital downloads. Cartidges! Yes, Nintendo should go back to carts.
As far as I'm concerned, Optical media has far overshot any gamer's or developer's real need for space. Solid State prices are dropping very quickly, with a 4 GB SD card running about $5 in some places. By 2012, the price of... say a 16-32GB SD card could be around $8 wholesale. And that is PLENTY for video games. Sure you won't be able to get a Dual-Layer Blu-Ray's worth of space, but that much space isn't necessary anyway.
The Benefit of these carts would be the joyous loading times of the DS, less moving parts which means little chance for DREs, more reliable hardware, a retail presence, and the loveliness of actually owning a product you bought with money.
It's really a no-brainer to me.
What about capitalizing on the massive success that is the Wii and its DVD format for the Wii2?
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: that Baby guy on June 17, 2009, 10:05:23 PM
Couldn't both WODs and the SSD catridges be used on one unit? Hahaha... Make a second Nintendo Disc Drive, since it could work well now, unlike the 64 :D
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Deguello on June 17, 2009, 10:15:06 PM
Quote
What about capitalizing on the massive success that is the Wii and its DVD format for the Wii2?
Why not use the massive success of the DS and it's cards?
Well sure, there should be a disc slot for Wii backwards compatibility. But think about the size of an SD Card for a minute. The entry port for it on the Wii is already so tiny. Think of the DS card slot on the DS. But Solid State offers a lot more benefits that are relevant to GAMES, as opposed to simple popularity. Like DVD did for VHS. Tape was a lot cheaper than discs, but the advances were a lot more appreciated.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Mop it up on June 17, 2009, 11:46:29 PM
I would be all for switching back to a cartridge-esque format. But I doubt it will happen since discs are cheaper to manufacture, and companies are always looking to save a few bucks even if it means sacrificing a little functionality.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Deguello on June 18, 2009, 12:00:29 AM
But alas! If discs were cheaper to manufacture, why did the DS's media win out over the PSP's? The cards and carts have more of the values that gamers associate with games, with up to 256 MB on a DS Card being "Good enough" for all types of games. Even though the PSP's discs have 2 GB of capacity, that much space comes with the price of loading times and larger, less reliable media, which isn't what customers value from handheld games.
But at the same time, the DS is the most popular Videogame system out now, so shouldn't consoles want to reflect those values too? The only reason we tolerate load times on consoles is because of the higher production values, but what if an option exists to bring those same values faster and more reliably? A 16 GB SD Card would be comparable same price as a Blu-Ray disc in 2011 or 2012. adn 16 GB is plenty for all types of games, even full city Sandbox whatevers. The advantage of discs would be very few then.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Mop it up on June 18, 2009, 12:09:24 AM
The DS is a portable and Nintendo is smart enough to realize that consumers aren't going to want discs for a portable gaming system. Customers value portability and discs don't really have that. As long as it seems like the home console market will tolerate discs then companies will stick with them.
It may happen eventually but I doubt it will happen in the next generation. Especially not from Sony, who will either still be pushing Blu-ray or some new, high-capacity disc. Nintendo is the only likely candidate since they have a history with cartridges.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: BranDonk Kong on June 18, 2009, 12:23:57 AM
thatguy is right about the sizes of Wii games. Animal Crossing was so small you could boot the game in the Gamecube, take out the disc, and never have to put it back in. EVER.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 18, 2009, 12:34:25 AM
I'm all for a proprietary SD card solution, but the Wii2 will be fully compatible with the Wii and that means DVD as the main format. Maybe there will be games released on a special SD card (upto 32 GB) but it will in no way replace DVD's for retail game distribution
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Deguello on June 18, 2009, 12:41:01 AM
Quote
The DS is a portable and Nintendo is smart enough to realize that consumers aren't going to want discs for a portable gaming system. Customers value portability and discs don't really have that. As long as it seems like the home console market will tolerate discs then companies will stick with them.
It may happen eventually but I doubt it will happen in the next generation. Especially not from Sony, who will either still be pushing Blu-ray or some new, high-capacity disc. Nintendo is the only likely candidate since they have a history with cartridges.
I disagree. The next gen is exactly where we will see Nintendo push a solid state format (Heck Iwata even mentioned in E3 2006 that he hated load times (as does everyone) and wants to keep them as low as possible. How much lower is total elimination?). I expect MS to go full Digital Distribution and Sony to either do that or stick with Blu-Ray.
You see no-low loading times as a "portable" value instead of a "general video game" value, and that's where you are mistaken. Who "LIKES" loading times? Nobody. That's why the complete elimination of them for consoles would be a big deal. And digital distribution unfortunately still has a "loading time" in the form of actually having to down"load" a game over days in some cases.
And BnM, there already is a Nintendo platform that uses two separate media, one for backwards compatibility. The DS uses tiny DS cards And the almost 3x as big GBA carts until they were generall phased out earlier this year. I see no reason why that can't also work for The Wii2.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Mop it up on June 18, 2009, 12:45:19 AM
I hope you're right about that because I would love to see them use some sort of solid state media type next time around.
Of course consumers don't like loading times but I was trying to look at it with a business perspective. I don't think game publishers care about loading times, they'd rather save money if they could.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 18, 2009, 12:45:43 AM
But the point of eliminating a disc drive in favor of solid state wouldn't happen next gen, but maybe the one after it.
If Nintendo made a Wii2 with both media, DVD for Wii & SD for Wii2, I don't see them phasing out a DVD drive completely until Wii3. or at best, late cycle Wii2 as a Wii2lite.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Deguello on June 18, 2009, 12:55:29 AM
Quote
If Nintendo made a Wii2 with both media, DVD for Wii & SD for Wii2, I don't see them phasing out a DVD drive completely until Wii3. or at best, late cycle Wii2 as a Wii2lite.
Bingo, and think about the Wii2Lite or whatever. With the DVD drive gone, how big would a Wii be? Now that would turn heads.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 18, 2009, 01:02:47 AM
How small would you really want it to be? It's a console and needs to have a visible presence in the entertainment center. Otherwise you miss out on scenarios like: "Hey is that a Wii!!?? You wanna play WiiSports Roid Rage!!!?"
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Stratos on June 18, 2009, 01:05:30 AM
If they go much smaller for consoles they will start competing directly with handhelds, mobiles and iPods.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Deguello on June 18, 2009, 01:07:40 AM
Maybe. But that also means they could fill the extra space in the Wii2 with Banana Cream. Get that hard to reach Bakery demographic.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Stratos on June 18, 2009, 01:11:50 AM
Are you mocking my thought or just this entire threads conversation?
Maybe you werre just making a general joke and it flw over my head. I don't know. I'm sick and a little slow today so sorry if I ruined your joke.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Deguello on June 18, 2009, 01:19:37 AM
I was just making a joke at the extra space taking the DVD drive out. I guess they could fill it with more RAM or something. I see BlacknMild's point, while there are benefits to smaller consoles (particularly to the ability to ship more of them at a time) there is a size that any lower would make the buyer suspicious, and the Wii is it.
Oh and an even BETTER idea. 4 parallel SD Cart slots for the main media entry. Could be a console for the family, with Madden loaded in for Dad in slot 1, Professor Layton and the Imposing Evil Thing for Mom in slot 2, BloodScream for the pissant teenage son in slot 3, and POKEYMANS for little sis in Slot 4. OR, Hardcore gamers having 4 different games from 4 different genres loaded at once. An even better Wii Menu, of sorts.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: that Baby guy on June 18, 2009, 01:47:57 AM
Really, though, I'd like to see something expandable. Something there for one purpose: Game expansions. A la Ms. Pac-Man.
There's several possibilities, but the idea would be that one device slot would be for the game, and the second would actually be the priority device, it's code is loaded first, and directs the first slot's code. Ms. Pac-man, I repeat, was done this way, and it was essentially what the 64 DD was planned to do, but it would mean game expansions would be possible. Super Mario Galaxy 2, for example, could be sold as an add on, since the engine, and so much of the data used would be on Galaxy, it would be cheap and efficient just to release the sequel on a small expansion SD card device, or whatever method.
If you don't understand, think Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles. Actually, throw in Sonic 2, as well. Connecting Sonic 3 and S&K together meant you could play S3&K, allowing more characters and stages. As a bonus, S&K took Sonic 2's stage data, and put in Knuckle's character specifications and art, creating a new twist on a classic game. If Nintendo allowed at least two ports, it could potentially mean that S&K compatibility between games. While it's unlikely to happen, it would be a unique experience to play as Mario, with SMG's camera, through a Metroid Prime game, wouldn't it? Well, this would take minimal effort, and the actual ability to do so would only have to be implemented in one of the games.
An additional benefit is obvious: Why would someone sell their games if they become greatly cross compatible with future games? You would effectively eliminate a major portion of those resellers if you extend value of their games, and this would be a cheap and effective method.
It's a pipe dream, but it would be awesome, regardless.
Edit: Come to think of this, I might not be too far off. The DSi was originally planned to hold two DS cartridges. I couldn't fathom what reason they'd have for that, but maybe that was the plan? Nintendo ultimately decided that size and appearance mattered more on a handheld platform, but with a console, as BnM said, you want it to take up a certain amount of shelf-space. Since the Wii is GC 1.5, I'd shell out money for a GC 2.0 that had games primarily on SD cards, or some small media, if it allowed for the games to be compatible with each other in a serious expandable manner. Add in DVD functionality, upgrade the processors a bit more, and I'd be sold. I'd suppose it would almost reach the 360's raw power, but the big feature would be in the expandability options :D
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: ShyGuy on June 18, 2009, 02:01:10 AM
Back in 2005, part of me thought the Nintendo Revolution was going to be a laptop. Part-portable, part-console. It's technically possible. Do a google on nVidia Tegra, amazing stuff.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: KDR_11k on June 18, 2009, 05:09:38 AM
Cutting out retail at this point would be absolutely retarded. This is why the PSP Go will absolutely fail.
However you have stumbled upon a good idea for the next Wii console! No, not digital downloads. Cartidges! Yes, Nintendo should go back to carts.
As far as I'm concerned, Optical media has far overshot any gamer's or developer's real need for space. Solid State prices are dropping very quickly, with a 4 GB SD card running about $5 in some places. By 2012, the price of... say a 16-32GB SD card could be around $8 wholesale. And that is PLENTY for video games. Sure you won't be able to get a Dual-Layer Blu-Ray's worth of space, but that much space isn't necessary anyway.
The Benefit of these carts would be the joyous loading times of the DS, less moving parts which means little chance for DREs, more reliable hardware, a retail presence, and the loveliness of actually owning a product you bought with money.
It's really a no-brainer to me.
I don't think carts actually load faster than discs, the cart-based games were just significantly smaller than the disc based ones (and of course early disc drives sucked).
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: that Baby guy on June 18, 2009, 05:20:45 AM
Nah, discs have loading issues. If you were, for example, to put Brawl on a hard drive, and play it over your Wii over USB 2.0 cable, let's just imagine that scenario is possible... Well, the point is, in most instances, the loading times would be much less in duration, and in some cases, non-existent. For example, after chooses a multiplayer Brawl and picking the stage, the disc would have a few seconds of loading time, but a HDD would load the match almost instantaneously.
...But that's all hypothetical?
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Deguello on June 18, 2009, 05:46:40 AM
KDR, The Blu-Ray drive in the PS3 is a 2x, which reads 9 MB/s, and the PS3 is already expensive enough with drive the price up with an improvement on speed. The 360's DVD drive is a 12x, which is 16 MB/s, provided it's not a dual layer disc.
Current SD Cards have a max Read speed of 45 MB/s, with the new SDXC cards sporting a max of 100 MB/sec and the possibility to raise it to 300 MB/s. It would be no contest. It would be nothing for Nintendo specify a proprietary SD format focused on read speed at the expense of write speed, which would be used mainly for saving.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 18, 2009, 10:09:31 AM
I don't think they should remove the GC compatibility per se, but I wouldn't mind if they stripped out the GC card and controller ports and just let you use the classic controller and regular wii storage for saving your GC games. That's all Nintendo has to do... and maybe release some new wavebird thing that works with the Wii's built in bluetooth capability. Then they could stop making the classic controller and just use that for all VC and GC games.
Then everyone would be happy, and by stripping out the redundant GC ports they might be able to shave off some of the wii's manufacturing costs.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 18, 2009, 10:13:50 AM
If they go much smaller for consoles they will start competing directly with handhelds, mobiles and iPods.
I think what we are going to see in the future is consoles and handhelds becoming one and the same. Consoles like the Wii 2 will be the size of a Nintendo DS, and will work just like one, but it will also be possible to hook them up a TV and to use controllers with them. These future "consoles" can instantly become handhelds just by unplugging them from the TV and then opening up their clam shell design to reveal their tiny built in screens.
Then you can play it in the car or on the bus on your way to your friends house, and then when you're there just fold it back up and hook it up to his tv and break out a couple controllers and you're back in business.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 18, 2009, 11:45:40 AM
Ohh yeah, I can see it now, I'm gonna pull my Wii2 out of my pocket and flip the screen open. Then I'm gonna ask my friend to hold it for me while I pull out my WiiMote. Now people sitting next to me will be frantically dodging my waggling swings as I struggle to see whats on the screen.
"can you hold it closer!?" I would say to my friend. " I can't see the screen" *whack* "whoops, you got too close!"
not gonna happen. Just because the Wii is small enough to become a handheld, doesn't mean it should become one. But if it makes you feel any better, the DS2 should have GC capable graphics with a good battery life.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Deguello on June 18, 2009, 01:37:19 PM
Oh yeah I totally forgot about Nintendo's patent with that InPhase company. They are working on a "holographic storage system" which everybody was absolutely sure was going to be Nintendo's Wii "storage solution" until they just let out SDHC compatibility.
Nobody seemed to research much after that, but apparently these guys are working on some kind of holographic disk drive, with a media that starts at 300 GB and a transfer rate of 20 MB/s, with goals of 1.6 TB and 120 MB/s.
But of particular interest is this section from InPhase's website's FAQ.
Quote
What is the future of holographic data storage? Holographic storage is unique because of its flexibility. The medium can be the size of a postage stamp, a credit card, or a very large platter. It is all defined by the requirements of the application. As the technology matures, it could be found in a broad range of applications from the home consumer to super computing environments.
Credit Card, eh? Obviously Nintendo doesn't need 300 GBs. But a custom job from 16-32 GBs? With 120 MB/s transfer rate? Maybe I was right after all.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 18, 2009, 02:11:19 PM
Postage Stamp sized games for the portable and Credit Card sized games for the Home console would be perfect and compact on both fronts. It would be the last storage media needed for quite a few generations, so I hope that whatever Nintendo has planned on the CPU/GPU side of things is infinitely upscalable powerwise so that there is a built in BC for the foreseeable future.
If Nintendo went with something like that, do you think MS would license BRD from Sony to catch up in storage capacity & HD media playback?
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 18, 2009, 02:51:24 PM
Ohh yeah, I can see it now, I'm gonna pull my Wii2 out of my pocket and flip the screen open. Then I'm gonna ask my friend to hold it for me while I pull out my WiiMote. Now people sitting next to me will be frantically dodging my waggling swings as I struggle to see whats on the screen.
"can you hold it closer!?" I would say to my friend. " I can't see the screen" *whack* "whoops, you got too close!"
not gonna happen. Just because the Wii is small enough to become a handheld, doesn't mean it should become one. But if it makes you feel any better, the DS2 should have GC capable graphics with a good battery life.
When its in its handheld form it wouldn't use a controller. It would probably be like the DS and use a touchscreen, but I think Nintendo could take this a step even further and convert the Stylus into a miniature sort of wii-mote which would obviously have to be stripped down in order to make it small enough to be held like a stylus and to be portable. Think of it as a wii-mote/stylus hybrid that only has like one or two buttons because that's all there is room for on it.
Games played in handheld mode would play very differently than when they're played in console mode. You'd probably still have games that would be deisgned for just one mode of play and wouldn't work in the other, but there might also be games where they offer both modes.
But then someone might say, "well, why not just keep the handhelds and consoles separate from each other like they are now?" In response to that I would say its better to have a system that can morph into both because then you only have to buy ONE system instead of two, which means you don't have to spend as much. Its also better because your game library can be limited to just one device, and game developers can just target that system instead of making two different versions... even though that one game might operate in different modes of play.
And as for the mini-wii-mote/stylus thing I proposed, I don't think you'd have problems with people swinging it around violently and causing injury, because 1) it would be very tiny and wouldn't hurt anyone even if it did hit them and 2) since its tiny you would hold it between your thumb and forefinger and move it like a stylus instead of a club or a sword.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Stratos on June 18, 2009, 03:00:10 PM
If you make a handheld/console hybrid, you would just need to connect it to a television for the console experience. A lot of new TV's are compatible with networks, even wireless ones. So it could be very feasible to make a system you hook up to your TV and use regular controllers/Wiimotes for, then unhook the hybrid system to play more DS style on the go.
All of the games could theoretically be on SD Cards since those can theoretically go up to 2Terabytes.
Some games can be more designed for 'on-the-go' play, and others can be more designed for 'sitting-in-front-of-the-TV-with-family' play.
Even if they kept the two major input systems-touch and motion- you can have Wiimotes for motion and the hybrid system can have a touch screen or two on it.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: ShyGuy on June 18, 2009, 03:31:10 PM
Wii 3 will be a TV channel on your cable box. BERIEVE
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Stratos on June 18, 2009, 03:33:19 PM
Wii 3 is part of that "Gaming Cloud" project.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 18, 2009, 03:46:23 PM
Wii 3 is Nintendo's final phase in destroying the industry.
Wii 3 is when gamers go outside.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 18, 2009, 05:39:52 PM
Wii 3 is Nintendo's final phase in destroying the industry.
Wii 3 is when gamers go outside.
By the time we get to Wii 3 I think it will be a system where you wear a virtual reality thing on your hand and you wear something like the power glove, except its infiniely more advanced.. and maybe there are power boots too for your feet, and there aren't any controllers whatsover because you would have 1:1 movement of your body controlling the movement of Mario in the visor, so controllers and even televisions themselves would be obsolete.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: jakeOSX on June 18, 2009, 07:44:55 PM
Wii 3 will hopefully be called something else.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: that Baby guy on June 18, 2009, 07:51:05 PM
ThWii?
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Stratos on June 18, 2009, 09:01:46 PM
The Wii 3 will be three Wiis taped together and people will be whinning about how it is a 'last gen console' that has HD but does not support the new and awesome Uber-Definition format.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 18, 2009, 10:41:26 PM
The next standard for display beyond HD will probably be 3D.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Stratos on June 18, 2009, 11:05:51 PM
The next standard for display beyond HD will probably be 3D.
I'm sure it will start in a 'low quality' 3D and over time it will become higher quality .
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Deguello on June 19, 2009, 12:39:34 PM
I should state that the reason I'm 100% positive that Nintendo will be using "carts" for their next console (be they holographic data cards or über SD Cards) is because of this whole "disruption" kick Nintendo's been on. They've successfully steered this generation to be more about interface than more powerful hardware, for example.
So why not attempt to change the values of the next gen by making the game's media more about access speed and reliability than capacity? It's something nobody is really thinking about right now. Everybody's all starry eyed about a 75 GB Triple Layered Blu-Ray Disc or some kind of 2 TB Hard Drive for all this talk of future-proof Digital Distribution, when nobody wants to talk about the DREs and the scratched disks and the drive failures and the "you rent this from our servers, you don't actually own it" issues that go with them. I can't be the only guy that sees the DS's loading times and compares them to MGS4's 8 minute "installs" and wonder why the hell we're getting cheated on this front just because the Playstation won the Console War more than a decade ago. I can't be the only guy who's had 2 PS1's break, had a PS2 break, and has had several computer failures, but also had an NES that still works, an SNES that still works, an N64 that still works, and every permutation of gameboy and DS work fine to this day, and noticed that the problems are with moving parts, spinning motors, and easily damaged media.
End the Disc! Carts now! Carts forever!
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Ian Sane on June 19, 2009, 12:59:56 PM
Although Deg and I have our differences I march alongside him in the crusade for carts!
I see optical discs as a necessary evil. The size difference was too great to ignore, despite the load times and reliability issues. But now we don't have to put up with that evil anymore. Much like how there is realisitically a cap on how far you can take graphics before the amount of work you put into them isn't cost effective, there is also a cap on space. You can only make a game so big. So if cartridges are at a point where they're big enough and cheap enough to offset any real optical disc advantage to use anything else would be idiotic. In a world where cost isn't an issue cartridges are better than discs in every way.
If anything this should be cause for celebration. We're at the point where we can be free from scratched discs and loading screens!
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 19, 2009, 01:15:08 PM
That would be grand.
My bookshelves are running out of space for DVD cases.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Stratos on June 19, 2009, 03:02:57 PM
I love the feel of cartridges. Plus then maybe we could go back to the old cardboard game boxes.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Ian Sane on June 19, 2009, 04:53:04 PM
Quote
Plus then maybe we could go back to the old cardboard game boxes.
This has got to be the first time in the history of the universe that someone has longed for the days of cardboard videogame boxes. Fucking things get wrecked or thrown out. If you keep them you can't really store the game in them so you just have these empty boxes laying around. It sucks for used game purchases since finding a complete copy is rare, which is hardly even an issue with cases.
DS uses cases so any other cartridge console from now on better use them. I HATE cardboard boxes!
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: ThomasO on June 19, 2009, 05:06:17 PM
I do not use any of my cases for storing games; I bought a 16 DS card case and a large CD wallet for my Wii games, so they're all easy to carry around. I keep all my cases in storage if I ever want to sell anything.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 19, 2009, 05:16:45 PM
You guys are all wrong. Games should not be on either carts nor on discs, but instead on cardboard cards like they were with the GBA E-Reader device. :P I just wonder how much space on a cardboard card it would take in order to hold enough bar codes for a typical current gen game.... On the E-Reader all that was done were simple NES games where the sizes are measured in mere Kilobytes and not megabytes or even gigabytes like they are today.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Mop it up on June 19, 2009, 05:29:16 PM
Games coming in cardboard boxes were just publishers being cheap because of how much cartridges cost. But flash cards are cheaper that what those old cartridges cost so there’s no reason to cheap out this time. DS games come in cases so I image there’d be a huge backlash if the next Nintendo system’s games didn’t as well.
The only durability issue with cartridges/cards is that the connecters get worn out through repeated use of insertion and removal. Though this becomes less of a problem when the connectors become smaller; that’s why N64 games work better than NES games and why Game Boy games are still going strong. So with how small the cards are then maybe it wouldn’t be a problem.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Stratos on June 19, 2009, 05:36:57 PM
Maybe it's just me then on the box thing. When I was young I kept them all on my shelf and I would actually keep the games in the cardoard boxes.
For the DS I just have a couple of the DS game cases that I cram all of my DS games in. I keep the most commonly played ones together so I can just grab that one if I'm going somewhere.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Mop it up on June 19, 2009, 05:42:19 PM
Maybe it's just me then on the box thing. When I was young I kept them all on my shelf and I would actually keep the games in the cardoard boxes.
You can still do that if the cases are still DVD-sized like I think they would be. They'd still have the artwork on them and everything, and you wouldn't have to worry about them getting worn out through use, damaged by a clumsy person, or faded by sunlight.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Stratos on June 19, 2009, 05:49:32 PM
Yeah, I think it's just my nostalgia monster that is fond of the cardboard boxes. Memories of the feel and smell of opening a new game.
I still have Rayman 2 on the N64 I can't bear to open. One of these days I will.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: jakeOSX on June 20, 2009, 05:51:42 PM
i still have ff5 for the GBA unopened for when i miss those boxes.
and when i get time to you know, play it. (sigh, i am such a squeenix whore)
carts do make sense, you can get 32 gb cards now which should be able to fit most games these days. if not, there are up to 256 (though i wouldn't want to pay more for the card than i did for the game consule. unless it was a final fantasy game.)
i do think there is some merit in crossing the line between consul and portable. animal crossing missed this boat, really hard too. why can't i play the same game on the DS and the Wii? i mean the SAME game. same thing with mario kart, or what have you.
so the carts will be DS2 carts, all will be scalable from three inch screens to 60 inch HD televisions. nintendo will finally understand this "internets" thing and load times will be so fast you can beat MGS faster than someone on Xbox can get it started.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Stratos on June 20, 2009, 05:55:30 PM
My friend needs early notice that we are going to go over to his house to play Hale 2 so that he can call his wife and have her boot up the system so we don't have to wait when we get there. Some unlucky times she is not there. The original XBox load times were horrible.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: DAaaMan64 on June 21, 2009, 01:15:28 AM
I should state that the reason I'm 100% positive that Nintendo will be using "carts" for their next console (be they holographic data cards or über SD Cards) is because of this whole "disruption" kick Nintendo's been on. They've successfully steered this generation to be more about interface than more powerful hardware, for example.
So why not attempt to change the values of the next gen by making the game's media more about access speed and reliability than capacity? It's something nobody is really thinking about right now. Everybody's all starry eyed about a 75 GB Triple Layered Blu-Ray Disc or some kind of 2 TB Hard Drive for all this talk of future-proof Digital Distribution, when nobody wants to talk about the DREs and the scratched disks and the drive failures and the "you rent this from our servers, you don't actually own it" issues that go with them. I can't be the only guy that sees the DS's loading times and compares them to MGS4's 8 minute "installs" and wonder why the hell we're getting cheated on this front just because the Playstation won the Console War more than a decade ago. I can't be the only guy who's had 2 PS1's break, had a PS2 break, and has had several computer failures, but also had an NES that still works, an SNES that still works, an N64 that still works, and every permutation of gameboy and DS work fine to this day, and noticed that the problems are with moving parts, spinning motors, and easily damaged media.
End the Disc! Carts now! Carts forever!
Yes, I completely agree with this. **** discs, the world is beyond that. Carts are back, and they damn well should be. Moving parts and easy scratches are awful!
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Caliban on June 21, 2009, 09:50:13 PM
I agree. If Wii games came in carts just like DS games, I would be much happier. Less noise because there is no DVD twirling around inside the Wii. The carts are small, so the cases they come in are also small which is good to organize my gaming collection. It would mean they could literally make a Wii Lite.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: NovaQ on June 22, 2009, 09:16:15 AM
I'm jumping on the cart wagon, too. In addition to the benefits y'all have pointed out, there are environmental ones. The lack of moving parts for optical media would make the console more energy efficient. And since the carts would likely be smaller than optical discs, manufacturers would need less plastic to make the carts and their cases.
Really, other than the worry of wear and tear that Mop_it_up pointed out, I don't see any disadvantage to solid state anymore. Even the fact that they're kinda "retro" (for a home console) could become a marketing advantage.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 22, 2009, 11:53:41 AM
Having games the size of postage stamps makes it more likely the games might get lost. This is a major downside to having things small... I'm sure it would be possible to go even smaller than the size of MicroSD cards if one really wanted to, but if its so tiny you could accidentally inhale it then that';s just too small...
So while stuff CAN certainly keep getting smaller, I think a line needs to be drawn when you get to the size of a credit card or so. Smaller is nice to an extent, but you don't something easily lost or broken... and heck, its theoretically possible a kid could choke to death by trying to swallow his games. I'm surprised this hasn't happened already with the Nintendo DS games... but you definitely don't want to go any smaller than that or it surely will.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on June 22, 2009, 02:47:51 PM
However small the actual memory card may be, it can be put in a cartridge of any size. I don't think there's any need to worry about them getting too small.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Mop it up on June 22, 2009, 07:57:52 PM
Another nice thing about cartridges is that the sizes can vary depending on what is needed, which will reduce the cost of smaller games. It was mentioned earlier that games like Animal Crossing and Super Paper Mario use a low amount of data, around 512MB, but they still need to be put on 4.7GB discs so they cost the same to produce as larger games.
As far as games which require a lot of space are concerned, that's where compression comes in. Just look at some of the Nintendo 64 games that were crammed into cartridges. Super Mario 64 is only 8MB and that game is massive. Perfect Dark is 32MB and that game is loaded. Conker's Bad Fur Day is 64MB and that game has really detailed graphics, a bunch of voice, complex lighting effects and more. Sure sometimes this compression came at a loss of quality, especially in the sound department, but this was over ten years ago. Compression technology has gotten even better over the years with formats like MP3 and if they explored it further with video games then I'm sure they could cram everything they need into cartridges that could be -- what was the estimate? 32GB? That's huge as it is!
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 22, 2009, 08:27:42 PM
To this day, most games don't get anywhere near 32 GB in size. Any PS3 game that claims to fill an entire BRD would have only done so because of duplicate data because the read time on the drive is too slow for speedy access the entire disc. If more than one area in a game uses the same textures, its likely that those textures are repeated to be placed next to the area that is being read on the disc so that it can be loaded alot quicker.
Nintendo has proved that 8GB isn't needed to make a game of good visual quality (SMG), MS has proven that 8GB of space is enough to make a game of great visual quality (GoW), so I'm sure 4X the space (& 5X the read time?)is waaay more than enough for HD quality games, not only in this generation but also the next.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Stratos on June 22, 2009, 08:41:34 PM
I thought Kojima actually did legitimately us a whole BD disc with guns of the Patriots. Wasn't there talk that he almost put it on two BD discs? He claimed to have actually run out of room.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on June 22, 2009, 08:45:45 PM
Another nice thing about cartridges is that the sizes can vary depending on what is needed, which will reduce the cost of smaller games. It was mentioned earlier that games like Animal Crossing and Super Paper Mario use a low amount of data, around 512MB, but they still need to be put on 4.7GB discs so they cost the same to produce as larger games.
That's a nonissue considering how cheaper it is to make a CD/DVD when compared to a cart. Part of the reason why SNES and N64 games were so expensive is because how expensive it was to produce a cart, of course carts are now smaller and have more efficient designs that it's now a non-issue. Unfortunately with the current trends, the only advancements we will see is a bigger push for digital distribution.
I thought Kojima actually did legitimately us a whole BD disc with guns of the Patriots. Wasn't there talk that he almost put it on two BD discs? He claimed to have actually run out of room.
He used a dual layered blu-ray disc for MGS4 which equals to about 50GB. I think he talked about how he couldn't fit it on a standard single layered blu-ray disc.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 22, 2009, 08:50:47 PM
I thought Kojima actually did legitimately us a whole BD disc with guns of the Patriots. Wasn't there talk that he almost put it on two BD discs? He claimed to have actually run out of room.
He probably did run out of space. & he probably had lots of data duplicated all over the disc for load time purposes. The read time on BRD drive in the PS3 is very slow for how much data it has to sift through. Thats also why lots of PS3 games have you pre-load to the HDD before playing. It is dumping all the repetitive stuff to the hard drive to help with loading times.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 22, 2009, 09:02:34 PM
Having games the size of postage stamps makes it more likely the games might get lost. This is a major downside to having things small... I'm sure it would be possible to go even smaller than the size of MicroSD cards if one really wanted to, but if its so tiny you could accidentally inhale it then that';s just too small...
So while stuff CAN certainly keep getting smaller, I think a line needs to be drawn when you get to the size of a credit card or so. Smaller is nice to an extent, but you don't something easily lost or broken... and heck, its theoretically possible a kid could choke to death by trying to swallow his games. I'm surprised this hasn't happened already with the Nintendo DS games... but you definitely don't want to go any smaller than that or it surely will.
DS game cards are the size of postage stamps and people have no problems with those. Most people aren't that stupid to lose or break them.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 22, 2009, 09:10:19 PM
Well if they can make the postage stamp sized SD cards upto 32GB, then imagine what kind of space they can put into a Credit Card or Business Card sized one?
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 22, 2009, 11:00:45 PM
Another nice thing about cartridges is that the sizes can vary depending on what is needed, which will reduce the cost of smaller games. It was mentioned earlier that games like Animal Crossing and Super Paper Mario use a low amount of data, around 512MB, but they still need to be put on 4.7GB discs so they cost the same to produce as larger games.
Doesn't really matter. DVD discs are only like 10 cents to manufacture, so that's far less than even the cheapest cart imaginable.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Stratos on June 23, 2009, 05:24:18 PM
I think the technological growth of carts ensures that Nintendo will be using them for their handhelds far into the future if they continue to use a physical media to distribute games. Which is great since carts do not drain batteries like UMD and other disk media does because of the spinning drive.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 23, 2009, 05:45:34 PM
Carts are more effective as a DRM than discs. Modern 3rd parties will hump all over this idea.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: NovaQ on June 24, 2009, 08:56:44 AM
It's a good thing carts are so durable, then.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Stratos on June 24, 2009, 08:46:40 PM
Another nice thing about cartridges is that the sizes can vary depending on what is needed, which will reduce the cost of smaller games. It was mentioned earlier that games like Animal Crossing and Super Paper Mario use a low amount of data, around 512MB, but they still need to be put on 4.7GB discs so they cost the same to produce as larger games.
Doesn't really matter. DVD discs are only like 10 cents to manufacture, so that's far less than even the cheapest cart imaginable.
It would matter if the next system uses cartridges.
It would matter if the next system uses cartridges.
I think you misunderstand the point I was trying to make. You were talking about the space used on DVD discs. I'm just saying that whether a game on a disc uses 512mb or 4.7gb or even a mere 64mb the cost to publish it is still exactly the same... because the cost of DVDs are fixed. Whether you use all the space on the DVD or not, it still costs exactly the same... you can leave most of the space blank, but you don't get any sort of discount in cost by doing that.
But with Carts its completely different. With carts it actually does matter how much space you use, because carts can have small memory or large memory depending on need. But even the smallest and least expensive cart you could possibly create is still going to cost way more than a 10 cent DVD, even if that cart only used 16mb of space...
If you think about it, all a DVD actually is is an extremely thin layer of aluminum sandwiched between layers of plastic. This makes optical discs EXTREMELY inexpensive compared to any other storage medium. Carts are MUCH more complex than this. I'm not quite sure all the components and materials needed to make a cart, but needless to say its quite a bit more complicated than a thin layer of foil surrounded by plastic.
Both mediums have their pros and cons. For optical medium their biggest plus is that they are extremely inexpensive, but that's about it. They are easily scratched, slow to read from, and cannot be written onto or saved onto the way carts can. I'm sure DS carts are far less expensive that N64 or SNES carts were back in the day, but the old argument is still applicable... just not quite to the same extent that it once was.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Mop it up on June 25, 2009, 01:59:31 AM
The cost is the reason why I don't think we'll see cartridges in Nintendo's next system, though I'm really hoping we will. I guess it will depend on what they hope to achieve with it. If they are serious about eliminating loading times then that's one way to do it. They probably still don't want to offer downloadable content, but something similar could be sold at retail as expansion cartridges. They did this sort of thing with the Famicom Disk System and that was over twenty years ago.
It will be interesting to see where they go from here.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: that Baby guy on June 25, 2009, 02:03:10 AM
I'd love credit-card sized and shaped cards. Like you said, though, price is a factor. The manufacturing cost would, plain and simply, rise probably 500x over (assuming the cheapest 2 GB~ card would be $5.00 in mass production, versus a $.10 disc) That's a big loss, in a lost of ways. Solid state media would need to crumble before it's viable with how the market works today, probably.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 25, 2009, 02:14:37 AM
Credit card games would be convenient because they could fit into your wallet. If you had an empty wallet you could pack perhaps a half dozen or more games inside and then it could fit in your pocket, which would make taking your games with you ridiculously easy... it really couldn't get any easier than that, and if you had the system similarly small then that is even better.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Deguello on June 25, 2009, 06:35:26 AM
Carts aren't so cost-prohibitive that they aren't the format for the #1 Video game system this generation and possibly all time. And the DS has the cheapest games too, whereas Disc-games actually went up in price. The customer doesn't care about how much the disc costs the publishers. They care about how much it is costing them.
The real reason carts cost so much back then was because of Nintendo's olde-tyme licensing structures. Most of that has been resolved. And even if it did come down to a $.50 GB Blu-Ray Disc vs. a $2-$4 16-32 GB SD Card/Hologram Card, I think most customers and most gamers would prefer the card, especially if it meant obliterated load times and a durable product, and increased durability of the console. Seriously, who would prefer the load times?
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Ian Sane on June 25, 2009, 12:49:22 PM
Quote
The real reason carts cost so much back then was because of Nintendo's olde-tyme licensing structures. Most of that has been resolved. And even if it did come down to a $.50 GB Blu-Ray Disc vs. a $2-$4 16-32 GB SD Card/Hologram Card, I think most customers and most gamers would prefer the card, especially if it meant obliterated load times and a durable product, and increased durability of the console. Seriously, who would prefer the load times?
As much as I love carts, this gives me a major Wii third party support vibe. Like Nintendo uses cartridges and the buying public eats it up... but third parties prefer the lower cost of discs and stick to the other consoles regardless of the Nintendo console's huge success and popularity. Right now we're in a situation where because they made their console hardware too different from everyone else they screwed themselves out of third party support... and yet it doesn't seem to have any negative effect on their financial success (which sucks for us because it gives them zero incentive to address the issue). I've love to use cartridges again but, ****, I'm not putting up with another generation like this. So I'm kind of leaning towards Nintendo being more conventional next gen just to not give third parties a reason to ignore them.
Despite being the market leader Nintendo seems to have absolutely no clout with developers. If the cost difference is still enough to turn third parties off maybe they should put that idea on hold and play ball a little bit more until they do have that clout.
The DS might use them but with a portable there are issues like battery life that don't apply to consoles and durability is more of a requirement. And although the games are cheaper a lot of them are 2D and even if they're 3D they look like N64 games. The cost of developing one obviously doesn't compare to something designed to push the PS3 hardware. The cost to the consumer regarding carts vs. discs is unrelated to the costs of the media. It's the development cost.
I want carts though. It would be really nice if it worked out. I want decent sized carts though. There is no point in a home console having tiny carts like the DS. I really hate how small DS games are. I'm afraid of losing them. I see their size as a necessary evil for portable gaming. The only reason I would see to use them would be if you made a portable and console in one. Credit card sized carts aren't a bad idea though. I'd be fine with GBA size.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 25, 2009, 12:54:57 PM
It's not a big deal since 3rd parties will die out to maintain the balance that was tipped by Nintendo's success. Either they die out now, or they get bought up then die out as a bigger entity.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 25, 2009, 01:02:58 PM
The real reason carts cost so much back then was because of Nintendo's olde-tyme licensing structures. Most of that has been resolved. And even if it did come down to a $.50 GB Blu-Ray Disc vs. a $2-$4 16-32 GB SD Card/Hologram Card, I think most customers and most gamers would prefer the card, especially if it meant obliterated load times and a durable product, and increased durability of the console. Seriously, who would prefer the load times?
As much as I love carts, this gives me a major Wii third party support vibe. Like Nintendo uses cartridges and the buying public eats it up... but third parties prefer the lower cost of discs and stick to the other consoles regardless of the Nintendo console's huge success and popularity. Right now we're in a situation where because they made their console hardware too different from everyone else they screwed themselves out of third party support... and yet it doesn't seem to have any negative effect on their financial success (which sucks for us because it gives them zero incentive to address the issue). I've love to use cartridges again but, ****, I'm not putting up with another generation like this. So I'm kind of leaning towards Nintendo being more conventional next gen just to not give third parties a reason to ignore them.
Despite being the market leader Nintendo seems to have absolutely no clout with developers. If the cost difference is still enough to turn third parties off maybe they should put that idea on hold and play ball a little bit more until they do have that clout.
The DS might use them but with a portable there are issues like battery life that don't apply to consoles and durability is more of a requirement. And although the games are cheaper a lot of them are 2D and even if they're 3D they look like N64 games. The cost of developing one obviously doesn't compare to something designed to push the PS3 hardware. The cost to the consumer regarding carts vs. discs is unrelated to the costs of the media. It's the development cost.
I want carts though. It would be really nice if it worked out. I want decent sized carts though. There is no point in a home console having tiny carts like the DS. I really hate how small DS games are. I'm afraid of losing them. I see their size as a necessary evil for portable gaming. The only reason I would see to use them would be if you made a portable and console in one. Credit card sized carts aren't a bad idea though. I'd be fine with GBA size.
Wait a minute, haven't you always argued that third parties should be supporting the Wii simply because it's the market leader? You seem to be suggesting that Nintendo not do something that would be an improvement in a lot of ways in order to try and appease third parties.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 25, 2009, 01:18:14 PM
NO reason to give the 3rd parties another excuse not to support the next Nintendo console.
Strategy is to get them on board first, and then change the price of admission.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 25, 2009, 01:28:33 PM
Carts aren't so cost-prohibitive that they aren't the format for the #1 Video game system this generation and possibly all time. And the DS has the cheapest games too, whereas Disc-games actually went up in price. The customer doesn't care about how much the disc costs the publishers. They care about how much it is costing them.
The real reason carts cost so much back then was because of Nintendo's olde-tyme licensing structures. Most of that has been resolved. And even if it did come down to a $.50 GB Blu-Ray Disc vs. a $2-$4 16-32 GB SD Card/Hologram Card, I think most customers and most gamers would prefer the card, especially if it meant obliterated load times and a durable product, and increased durability of the console. Seriously, who would prefer the load times?
Are SD cards REALLY that cheap for 16-32gb? I'll admit its been awhile since I shopped, but I remember at the stores they cost like $20 for a 2gb and about $39 for a 4gb. Now this was a year or two ago when I went looking and I'm sure those costs have went down and I'm sure the capacities have gone up, but still... Even if a cart cost only $10 each to manufacture (which I think is a reasonable estimate) that's still a very significant chunk of money... its like 25% of the cost of the game on the shelf, and then there's the licensing fees and development costs and advertising costs and so forth.
If 3rd parties have a slim profit margin and then their costs suddenly increase by about $10 that would probably result in them either jumping ship as they did with the N64 or cutting back on development and release only stuff they think is almost certain to do well. This means there won't be as many high-risk experimental sort of games like No More Heroes and so forth.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 25, 2009, 01:32:16 PM
It's not a big deal since 3rd parties will die out to maintain the balance that was tipped by Nintendo's success. Either they die out now, or they get bought up then die out as a bigger entity.
I really wonder why Nintendo doesn't use all this money they've made and just start buying up 3rd parties. That way, they can FORCE them to develop games for their system whether they want to or not. For example, if Nintendo bought Capcom we could see Street Fighter IV and RE 5 and then those franchises could be Nintendo exclusives FOREVER.
I think that would be a better use of the money instead of tossing it in a huge vault in Yamauchi's mansion so he can go swimming in it like Scrooge McDuck.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 25, 2009, 01:39:49 PM
All of Capcom's talent working 100% on Wii and DS projects with guidance from Nintendo would have the potential to create some amazing stuff. On the more likely side, I'm surprised Nintendo hasn't bought Next Level Games yet.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 25, 2009, 01:42:16 PM
Nintendo has no idea how to manage third party publisher partnerships into making games. See StarFox Assault.
Nintendo is giving 3rd parties a chance to change their own values, just as the Market has changed its values, by letting them face their own self-destruction.
3rd parties NOT changing, high techy console makers NOT changing is what lead to this big-glam-big-budget-big-industry-decline mess that we see outside of the Nintendo Market.
Get N or get out.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 25, 2009, 01:50:09 PM
But that's why Nintendo should buy them, they wouldn't be third parties anymore, they'd be first party internal development studios.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 25, 2009, 01:54:43 PM
Making more kiddie games than ever. Right.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Ian Sane on June 25, 2009, 01:58:28 PM
Quote
Wait a minute, haven't you always argued that third parties should be supporting the Wii simply because it's the market leader? You seem to be suggesting that Nintendo not do something that would be an improvement in a lot of ways in order to try and appease third parties.
Well they SHOULD support the Wii simply because it's the market leader but they DON'T. So obviously Nintendo has to do something else to get their support. Not fair, not right, but unfortunately it's reality.
Quote
I really wonder why Nintendo doesn't use all this money they've made and just start buying up 3rd parties. That way, they can FORCE them to develop games for their system whether they want to or not. For example, if Nintendo bought Capcom we could see Street Fighter IV and RE 5 and then those franchises could be Nintendo exclusives FOREVER.
If Nintendo bought these companies they would probably lose their identity. Right now they're different from Nintendo and that makes them more interesting.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 25, 2009, 02:06:28 PM
Wait a minute, haven't you always argued that third parties should be supporting the Wii simply because it's the market leader? You seem to be suggesting that Nintendo not do something that would be an improvement in a lot of ways in order to try and appease third parties.
Well they SHOULD support the Wii simply because it's the market leader but they DON'T. So obviously Nintendo has to do something else to get their support. Not fair, not right, but unfortunately it's reality.
Quote
I really wonder why Nintendo doesn't use all this money they've made and just start buying up 3rd parties. That way, they can FORCE them to develop games for their system whether they want to or not. For example, if Nintendo bought Capcom we could see Street Fighter IV and RE 5 and then those franchises could be Nintendo exclusives FOREVER.
If Nintendo bought these companies they would probably lose their identity. Right now they're different from Nintendo and that makes them more interesting.
I think the best way to do it if they were going to buy third parties is to buy them but make them mostly autonomous, so that they had to develop for Nintendo systems but they could maintain their own identity, kind of like Rare used to be.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 25, 2009, 03:05:55 PM
The problem with buying 3rd parties is that while you can buy the company and own the IP's, it doesn't mean you will retain the talent. There is nothing stopping ALL of the employees from leaving and forming a new company to start from scratch.
That is why Nintendo tries to form partnerships that push creativity from 3rd parties with guidance from Nintendo. This way the 3rd party doesn't feel trapped & restricted and Nintendo gets a quality 3rd party effort. Its more of a win win situation that way.
edit: What is more likely to happen is a joint subsidiary is formed that has access to the talents and IP's of both companies where they can work together without consuming each other.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 25, 2009, 03:09:44 PM
So basically the moral of the story is that Nintendo needs to use moneyhats like Microsoft to get real 3rd party support.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on June 25, 2009, 03:25:39 PM
What is more likely to happen is a joint subsidiary is formed that has access to the talents and IP's of both companies where they can work together without consuming each other.
More likely because it's happened before, you mean?
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 25, 2009, 03:43:10 PM
What is more likely to happen is a joint subsidiary is formed that has access to the talents and IP's of both companies where they can work together without consuming each other.
More likely because it's happened before, you mean?
Exactly. I don't remember whats come of it, bu we all know that Nintendo likes to do things their way.
They won't buy 3rd parties, because that would be copying MS & they can't moneyhat them either since that would be copying Sony & MS.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 25, 2009, 03:58:01 PM
What is more likely to happen is a joint subsidiary is formed that has access to the talents and IP's of both companies where they can work together without consuming each other.
More likely because it's happened before, you mean?
Exactly. I don't remember whats come of it, bu we all know that Nintendo likes to do things their way.
They won't buy 3rd parties, because that would be copying MS & they can't moneyhat them either since that would be copying Sony & MS.
That's how the Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles series came about.
Title: Re: Wii Lite - a Hypothesis
Post by: Deguello on June 25, 2009, 04:32:40 PM
Carts aren't so cost-prohibitive that they aren't the format for the #1 Video game system this generation and possibly all time. And the DS has the cheapest games too, whereas Disc-games actually went up in price. The customer doesn't care about how much the disc costs the publishers. They care about how much it is costing them.
The real reason carts cost so much back then was because of Nintendo's olde-tyme licensing structures. Most of that has been resolved. And even if it did come down to a $.50 GB Blu-Ray Disc vs. a $2-$4 16-32 GB SD Card/Hologram Card, I think most customers and most gamers would prefer the card, especially if it meant obliterated load times and a durable product, and increased durability of the console. Seriously, who would prefer the load times?
Are SD cards REALLY that cheap for 16-32gb? I'll admit its been awhile since I shopped, but I remember at the stores they cost like $20 for a 2gb and about $39 for a 4gb. Now this was a year or two ago when I went looking and I'm sure those costs have went down and I'm sure the capacities have gone up, but still... Even if a cart cost only $10 each to manufacture (which I think is a reasonable estimate) that's still a very significant chunk of money... its like 25% of the cost of the game on the shelf, and then there's the licensing fees and development costs and advertising costs and so forth.
If 3rd parties have a slim profit margin and then their costs suddenly increase by about $10 that would probably result in them either jumping ship as they did with the N64 or cutting back on development and release only stuff they think is almost certain to do well. This means there won't be as many high-risk experimental sort of games like No More Heroes and so forth.
Chozo Ghost, Nintendo's not releasing Wii2 tomorrow. If you go by roughly halving technology prices, which currently has people buying 8 GB SD Cards in Walmart for $25 retail, in three years time it should be about $4 (assuming no markup.) And remember, these items are retail prices, not wholesale prices. And this assumes them using off the shelf SD Cards and sending buyers to every Walmart. An inexpensive custom 16-32 GB SD card or Holographic card existing in 2011 isn't far fetched at all.
As for third parties support... If they aren't even swayed by the market leader leading the market and having the highest userbase and the most games sold in every market, I don't know what else that can be done. Activision even put up with being screwed out of half a billion dollars just in licensing fees for the PS3. If they are willing to have put up with that abuse, how the hell could Nintendo ever get a leg up? And their costs going up? They seemed to have zero problem doubling their dev budgets and lengthening dev time. What would raising the price of the media from $.50 + Sony Blu-Ray licensing fees to $2-$4 do?
On the plus side it would save Nintendo millions in repairing DREs that just wouldn't happen anymore. Now yeah "Good for Nintendo... and no one else." But I'm seriously questioning the sanity of people who have this weird axe to grind that Nintendo is successful, particularly whiny, excuse-making third parties. Nintendo has probably been the most open they've ever been with them, on both DS and Wii, and BOTH TIMES they ignored them and bet on the wrong horse, to whit all of them have suffered pretty greatly, with even Giants like EA posting Billion Dollar losses during the Holiday period just last year. There has been ample opportunity the entirety of the Wii's life for them to man up and they haven't, allowing Nintendo to dominate yet again, but this time to the tune of Record profits they get little share of. They've had their chance, and they made their choice to marginalize the Wii, motion controls, regular customers, which has led to struggle, heartache, downsizing, and eventual merging or closing.
The best way to make a Nintendo fan for life is to make Barnyard Party and put it on the shelf next to the empty space that Mario Kart Wii is in when it's in stock.
