Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: Stogi on May 27, 2009, 02:31:29 AM
Title: The bookies in.
Post by: Stogi on May 27, 2009, 02:31:29 AM
It's finally over. The same old argument; the same old gripe; that cancer can finally be laid to rest. The Wii has mature games coming; a lot of them. This year alone, they've announced or released more than you can count on your hands.
So now what?
A change of heart by the media? Ha, yeah right. Well at least not before confirmation that these games are actually good. But what if they are? Well then it's time to get out the ruler and compare them to similar games on other systems, trivially, in pursuit of an irrelevant conclusion.
Still, while the comparison might be irrelevant, it sure is interesting to think about. The Wii has proven itself to be more intuitive in most categories, but the jury is still out on mature games. But what if M+ really is the future? What if it makes mature games more visceral, more complete? Will people finally not care so much about the HD revolution? Will third parties do the same?
It's anyone's bet.
It's going to be an interesting next couple of years and it all starts next week.
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 27, 2009, 02:52:21 AM
These first 3 years were pretty interesting, I'd say.
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: ShyGuy on May 27, 2009, 03:09:18 AM
Kiddie? Ports? Waggle? Casual?
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 27, 2009, 04:44:18 AM
SALES CHARTS.
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: Nick DiMola on May 27, 2009, 07:38:01 AM
The Wii has been pretty damn solid up to this point. If the entire gaming media was capable of ignoring every single awesome game that came out on the Wii up till now, why would anyone think things will change?
The 360 and PS3 could get ports of Wii specific games from now until the end of the generation and the gaming media would still **** on the Wii library. They are whiny babies incapable of being satisfied over anything.
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: Deguello on May 27, 2009, 08:12:48 AM
It is very interesting to look back at the media's perception of Nintendo right up until Brain Age was released. It was kiddy this, childish that, no matter what games came out when. Didn't matter how much blood was spilled, how many swear words, how much sex. Kiddy kiddy kiddy.
Then Brain Age came out, an E rated game, and got very popular with men, older men, women, and older women. Record-breakingly popular. So now the "kiddy brigade" had a problem. How can you even say DS is "kiddy" when there are repeating images of 35-year-old men and women playing it. It just doesn't stick. It got worse when Wii Sports came out and seniors, older men, and basically everybody was playing this game. Even on day 1, Wii is popular with adults. What to do?
So they decided to rest on "casual" and now define "gamer" as this ever shrinking demographic window of a male 15-27. This is a fine time to bring up an old Cartoon Network show called Codename: Kids Next Door (I believe I have reviewed one of the licensed games on the site.) In it, a group of children fight against "adult tyranny" and their useful lackeys the "teenagers," the bourgeoisie managers of this whole growing up biz. That's not important but what is important is how one of these agents of the Kids Next Door gets decommissioned. The second they turn 13 they get their brains scrambled and they basically "go back to being normal." This is usually a tearful event as they lose good agents, but it's all for the cause and all that.
This is similar to the attitude most of these games press sites take, that older than a certain age makes you somehow a non-gamer no matter what your favorites are, simply because of the newfound popularity in games for 28-40 age groups and 41-65 age groups. You get drummed out of the corps, so to speak.
We never talked about demographics before this generation. The only one we even recognized was "kiddy," which was humorously stuck onto some of the best games of all time like Mario 64 and Zelda: OOT, and done so by charlatans on this "internet" that was all the rage. Everybody who played games was a gamer, period. Now it's all different and much the worse for it. We have these amorphous labels "casual" and "hardcore." They now let marketing intercede with development and have games "aimed at demographics" which usually fail. And we are now all at each other's throats over how "hardcore" somebody can be and this is achieved somehow by buying the most expensive things, which would probably make game companies happy if they weren't all drowning in red ink. All because of a pointless label put on the market leading consoles (DS and Wii) by forum fanboys and bitterly disappointed games press editors.
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: KDR_11k on May 27, 2009, 11:07:18 AM
I've given up on expecting usefulness from all that hardcore-casual talk, the 360 is supposedly the sanctuary of the hardcore but I can't find games for it while I've got tons for the Wii.
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: Ian Sane on May 27, 2009, 01:23:36 PM
I've always seen Nintendo as the bullied kid that brings it on himself. You know on the Simpsons how Martin is bullied but he's such a pathetic wuss that it's actually funny? It's like that.
Nintendo is the company that had a perfectly family friendly character in Mario and then for some reason decided to give him a voice that made him sound like the host of a TV show for pre-schoolers. When I load up Super Mario Galaxy there's that pathetically wimpy voice speaking the title. This game is awesome but, ****, it's like I have to deal with this stupid pre-school **** to get to the sweet sweet gameplay inside. There is no reason that Mario has to be THAT wimpy and THAT patronizing.
Nintendo is also the company that was being accused of being kiddy and then decided to take Zelda, one of their only franchises that their bullies thought was cool, and turned it into a cartoon. They bring that image on themselves.
I agree that things have changed to more a casual image than a kiddy image. But I think the real thing is Nintendo has a wimpy image. If it isn't a cutesy game it's a "game" about walking or exercising. Compare Wii Music to Guitar Hero. Electric guitars are cool. Rock music is a cool. Nintendo's music game has you playing Twinkle Twinkle Little Star. That's wimpy as hell.
It isn't just about how many mature games are on the Nintendo system. It's all about Nintendo themselves and the image they project. They more than anyone create the image of their console. And for them games like Fire Emblem or Metroid Prime are the exceptions. The wimpy games are more expected so that image paints the entire console, regardless of what third parties do. And third parties usually follow Nintendo's lead anyway. Mature games and core games may exist for the Wii but when I go to the store the vast majority of Wii games on the shelf and non-gamer focused shovelware TRASH. The image doesn't change because of a few exceptions.
I think the casual vs. hardcore thing is a bit different though. It seems with that Nintendo stepped over a line where the content of their games is compromised by wimpiness. In the past it was like Mario looked kiddy but had awesome gameplay while with non-games the gameplay is affected as well. Wii Music doesn't just look wimpy it PLAYS wimpy as well. That's why you see former hardcore Nintendo nuts that used to defend the kiddy image crappying on non-games. The defense was that Nintendo never made truly kiddy games but with non-games, now you can say they ARE.
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 27, 2009, 01:27:25 PM
So what you're saying is, without Nintendo to rescue the industry, these noncasual Nintendo nuts are simply loud people in a dying industry.
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: EasyCure on May 27, 2009, 01:42:53 PM
BRAVO BRAVO
That is by far THE best example of fanboys and their E-penises.
You mention the SWEET SWEET GAMEPLAY of SMG yet you're borderline offended about the stupid voiceover, huh? Thats pretty pathetic. You say rock music is "cool" too.. and most of the regulars here know you yourself play guitar and are in a band. Did you do it because it was "cool" Ian or because you actually like the music you're emulating?
If you as a 30something year old adult who 'still' plays videogames can't look passed something as stupid as a high pitched cartoony character, maybe its time you just STOP playing video games all together?
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: NWR_insanolord on May 27, 2009, 01:50:42 PM
I don't want Nintendo to care about what is cool.
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: Ian Sane on May 27, 2009, 02:03:30 PM
Quote
most of the regulars here know you yourself play guitar and are in a band. Did you do it because it was "cool" Ian or because you actually like the music you're emulating?
No, I actually like it. I'm just pointing out that rock music is popular and considered cool by most people of all ages while a lot of the public domain music in Wii Music is not.
Quote
If you as a 30something year old adult who 'still' plays videogames can't look passed something as stupid as a high pitched cartoony character, maybe its time you just STOP playing video games all together?
Well I'm not in my 30's yet. ;) I CAN look past a stupid voice because the game is awesome. But why should I have to? Why does Nintendo has to take a game that is already family friendly and make the presentation THAT much more patronizing? They don't have to but they do and that's why they have the image they do.
I find Nintendo very patronizing with their overly cutesy presentations and them telling me I need friend codes and that the controller is just too damn confusing and their non-games being made SOLELY for non-gamers when they could just make a great game and have beginner modes for non-gamers (like Guitar Hero: World Tour). Stop treating everyone like a fucking idiot for a change and then maybe you won't have these image problems.
Quote
I don't want Nintendo to care about what is cool.
I don't really either. But not trying to be cool and being excessively lame is not the same thing.
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: Dirk Temporo on May 27, 2009, 03:19:26 PM
I wouldn't call a single developer releasing three games, a five-hour beat 'em up, and a new incarnation of Silent Hill "finally getting mature games."
It's going to take a lot more games and a lot more time to repair that image.
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: vudu on May 27, 2009, 03:40:09 PM
The Wii has mature games coming; a lot of them. This year alone, they've announced or released more than you can count on your hands.
Keep in mind that most of these games aren't on sale yet and the few "mature" games that are available have decent-to-good sales at best (especially if they're not part of an established franchise).
The dead-horse beating will continue until something as thoroughly mediocre as Army of Two can sell two million copies on Wii.
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 27, 2009, 04:09:38 PM
The only way for Wii to appear mature is for Nintendo to stop releasing its own software completely.
rather, if Nintendo never released its software at all, letting Red Steel dictate the theme of future game developments.
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: Stogi on May 27, 2009, 05:17:32 PM
I wouldn't call a single developer releasing three games, a five-hour beat 'em up, and a new incarnation of Silent Hill "finally getting mature games."
It's going to take a lot more games and a lot more time to repair that image.
There's:
RE:DC RedSteel 2 Cursed Mountain Dead Space Overlord
Not to mention a nice selection of 'core' titles such as Monster Hunter 3 and FF:CB.
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: Ian Sane on May 27, 2009, 06:22:49 PM
How are spinoffs like RE:DC, Dead Space and Overlord going to change the image of the Wii? That's the same thing the Wii has always had. Getting spinoffs instead of the main entries is part of the Wii's negative image in the first place. Might as well have used Billy Hatcher to depend the Cube's kiddy image.
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: Stogi on May 27, 2009, 06:30:41 PM
I think you should read something.
http://wii.ign.com/articles/986/986199p1.html
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: vudu on May 27, 2009, 06:43:11 PM
How are spinoffs like RE:DC, Dead Space and Overlord going to change the image of the Wii? That's the same thing the Wii has always had. Getting spinoffs instead of the main entries is part of the Wii's negative image in the first place. Might as well have used Billy Hatcher to depend the Cube's kiddy image.
This is an accurate assessment.
Changing the image of Wii will end up not being a matter of changing the minds of existing opinion sharers, it would have to be thru nurturing a new appreciative audience that forces the previous opinionated one out of relevance.
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: Ian Sane on May 27, 2009, 06:56:56 PM
Dead Space Extraction could be the greatest on-rails shooter spin-off of an FPS game every made BUT it's still an on-rails shooter spin-off of an FPS game that is NOT on the Wii and is getting a sequel on the other consoles but NOT the Wii. It fits the stereotype so well that describing it sounds like a parody.
It still suggests that the Wii just can't handle with the big boys and thus has to get it's own spin-off built "ground up for the Wii" (and in the cliche on-rails shooter genre as well). Dead Space II as an exclusive or as a multiplatform release would help the Wii's image. This is nothing. It's a product no one asked for being made just to get some sort of Wii product on the shelf. Whether or not it's actually good is secondary - it's still a perfect example of third parties treating the market-leading Wii as an afterthought.
In other words "LOL CASUALENDO!!111"
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: Stogi on May 27, 2009, 07:12:29 PM
Spin-off or not; if you played the game intrinsically and loved it, what is the difference? A game is a game is a game.
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: Ian Sane on May 27, 2009, 07:17:38 PM
Quote
Spin-off or not; if you played the game intrinsically and loved it, what is the difference? A game is a game is a game.
Well you could say the same thing with "kiddy games". We're talking about Nintendo's image here and I don't think any spin-off will help the Wii's image at all.
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 27, 2009, 07:20:51 PM
But FPS are meant to be played on the P..... layers Choice of gaming platform. :P
Besides I can already see a late port of Dead Space being made(already being ported?) if Extraction does well, and maybe DS2 get put on the Wii too.
I really don't think it makes sense to put a prequel on one system and then not put the original and the sequel on it too. Especially since the stories are a continuation of each other and not a separate side spin-off adventure.
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: Stogi on May 27, 2009, 07:28:48 PM
Spin-off or not; if you played the game intrinsically and loved it, what is the difference? A game is a game is a game.
Well you could say the same thing with "kiddy games". We're talking about Nintendo's image here and I don't think any spin-off will help the Wii's image at all.
What about Nintendo's image? I thought we were talking about quality mature titles?
I don't care if Nintendo's image made sex-crazy pedophiles flock to their system; if the games are fun, what is the difference? Your talking about image and the need to be cool, but I don't think you're cool enough to shed the superficial and do what you actually enjoy.
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: Mop it up on May 27, 2009, 07:42:13 PM
*yawn*
It looks like this is going to be a boring year. Wake me up when everybody gets back to the "hardcore" vs. "casual" nonsense, that is always worth a laugh.
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 27, 2009, 07:50:04 PM
soooooo....... Ian enjoys sex-crazy pedophile flocking?
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 27, 2009, 07:50:50 PM
It looks like this is going to be a boring year. Wake me up when everybody gets back to the "hardcore" vs. "casual" nonsense, that is always worth a laugh.
I WON'T LET YOU DOWN
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: Deguello on May 27, 2009, 09:04:07 PM
Quote
I've always seen Nintendo as the bullied kid that brings it on himself. You know on the Simpsons how Martin is bullied but he's such a pathetic wuss that it's actually funny? It's like that.
But who's the bully here? What is the relationship? Is it the games media bullying Nintendo? Because they tried with all their might to hype down the DS and Wii and hype up the PSP and PS3/360 and it really hasn't amounted to anything. If anything, Nintendo comes out looking great and the games media end with their shattered predictions and bitter disappointments.
Quote
Nintendo is the company that had a perfectly family friendly character in Mario and then for some reason decided to give him a voice that made him sound like the host of a TV show for pre-schoolers. When I load up Super Mario Galaxy there's that pathetically wimpy voice speaking the title. This game is awesome but, ****, it's like I have to deal with this stupid pre-school **** to get to the sweet sweet gameplay inside. There is no reason that Mario has to be THAT wimpy and THAT patronizing.
And here comes the death of Ian's weird obsession with Mario's voice. New Super Mario Brothers is the best-selling Mario title of all time, even beating the legendary Super Mario Bros. 3, and Mario has his golden voice all through it. You may personally not like the voice, but it has had zero impact on sales or reviews or even Mario's perception as an image of quality.
Quote
Nintendo is also the company that was being accused of being kiddy and then decided to take Zelda, one of their only franchises that their bullies thought was cool, and turned it into a cartoon. They bring that image on themselves.
LOL Celda. Is it 2003 or what?
Quote
I agree that things have changed to more a casual image than a kiddy image. But I think the real thing is Nintendo has a wimpy image. If it isn't a cutesy game it's a "game" about walking or exercising. Compare Wii Music to Guitar Hero. Electric guitars are cool. Rock music is a cool. Nintendo's music game has you playing Twinkle Twinkle Little Star. That's wimpy as hell.
LOL Wii Fit bashing. This is running the full monty. This is almost like a form post, and he just changes nouns here or there.
Quote
It isn't just about how many mature games are on the Nintendo system. It's all about Nintendo themselves and the image they project. They more than anyone create the image of their console. And for them games like Fire Emblem or Metroid Prime are the exceptions. The wimpy games are more expected so that image paints the entire console, regardless of what third parties do. And third parties usually follow Nintendo's lead anyway. Mature games and core games may exist for the Wii but when I go to the store the vast majority of Wii games on the shelf and non-gamer focused shovelware TRASH. The image doesn't change because of a few exceptions.
I'd actually say it's about how many mature gamers own the Wii. And there are a lot, so many that a new label had to be created just to make sure the games press editors feel better. And LOL at third parties following Nitnendo's lead. I see no awesome platformers like Mario Galaxy. I see no Metroid Prime clones. I see no Zelda-ish adventures. I do see a couple of quick cash-ins based on the false idea that Wii sports is easy to make. Most of these games have failed, and the ones that were even a little successful were so bad that their sequels failed. And the shovelware mostly bombs and many game consumers just stick to the Nintendo games. Which is great news for Nintendo as they make record profits and bad news for third parties as they live under a stigma of their own doing. None of which is Nintendo's fault, at all. Nobody pointed a gun at them and told them to make garbage while Nintendo makes great games.
Quote
I think the casual vs. hardcore thing is a bit different though. It seems with that Nintendo stepped over a line where the content of their games is compromised by wimpiness. In the past it was like Mario looked kiddy but had awesome gameplay while with non-games the gameplay is affected as well. Wii Music doesn't just look wimpy it PLAYS wimpy as well. That's why you see former hardcore Nintendo nuts that used to defend the kiddy image crappying on non-games. The defense was that Nintendo never made truly kiddy games but with non-games, now you can say they ARE.
Well Mario's never been doing better so that's out. Seems like these "hardcore defenders" don't really amount to a hill of beans. and this whole thing about non-games. Really how many has Nintendo released? 3? 4? In comparison to the majority of games they've released which fall under the regular definition of games? And what is the definition of a "non-game" again?
The Kiddy and casual stuff is really old, and bringing it up over and over again is beating a dead horse.
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: blackfootsteps on May 27, 2009, 09:12:12 PM
And here comes the death of Ian's weird obsession with Mario's voice. New Super Mario Brothers is the best-selling Mario title of all time, even beating the legendary Super Mario Bros. 3, and Mario has his golden voice all through it. You may personally not like the voice, but it has had zero impact on sales or reviews or even Mario's perception as an image of quality.
I thought that SMB 1 and SMW were still ahead? Although I suppose they were both bundled at some stages so it's not really apples with apples.
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: Peachylala on May 27, 2009, 10:43:40 PM
soooooo....... Ian enjoys sex-crazy pedophile flocking?
=/
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: Mop it up on May 28, 2009, 12:35:24 AM
I can't believe somebody just complained about Mario's voice. It couldn't be more perfect. I just can't believe it...
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: Ian Sane on May 28, 2009, 12:55:44 PM
Quote
But who's the bully here? What is the relationship? Is it the games media bullying Nintendo? Because they tried with all their might to hype down the DS and Wii and hype up the PSP and PS3/360 and it really hasn't amounted to anything.
This time it didn't work. But I think it certainly had a very negative effect on the success of the N64 and Gamecube. Sony and MS used Nintendo's negative image against them and it worked. They manipulated the gaming media and Nintendo was at the bottom because they met the negative exceptations almost exactly. Yeah they're on top now because they targetted a different audience. An audience that Sony and MS aren't targetting. An audience that the gaming media isn't targetted at. An audience that has only a moderate interest in gaming and thus doesn't even notice when Nintendo does things ass backwards.
Nintendo still has a negative image with the old market. If the new market lost interest or Nintendo actually faced some serious competition in that market wouldn't this image be an issue again? Nintendo strikes me as someone who always lost the race because they showed up without training for it and with their shoelaces tied together but instead of getting their **** together they decided to make their own race where they would be the winners by default because they're the only participant. Which is a pretty clever thinking-outside-the-box idea and it's working but Nintendo never learned why they were losing the race or what they needed to do to actually compete so if someone ever joins their new race and beats them they'll be falling behind out-of-shape with their shoelaces tied together because they never addressed what was holding them back in the first place.
Quote
The Kiddy and casual stuff is really old, and bringing it up over and over again is beating a dead horse.
Did I make this thread? Wasn't it you who made the correlation between the past kiddy image and the current casual image and brought the whole subject into this thread in the first place?
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 28, 2009, 02:21:32 PM
I think you can look at the console generations in more of a schooling sense. NES vs ???= elementary, preschool (atari) is over, time to have some real fun SNES vs Genesis = grade school/ jr. high, competition is beginning, reputations are being made, and names are being called. N64 vs. Saturn & PS = High School. clicks are being formed, lines are being drawn in the sand, old friends have found new friends GC vs PS2 & Xbox = College, more friends gone, time to move on, buckle down and do what needs to be done. balance work and play to pay off some other day. Wii vs PS3 & X360 = graduated, now in the real world. The Jocks and the cool kids have been poking fun for years (since High School), but now you got your degrees and a successful start-up that reaches out to everyone, so no matter what they have to say now, they have to respect you and your accomplishments. Now they secretly envy you even though they publicly despise you.
Maybe not the best analogy but with the talk of bullies and Nintendo thats what came to mind. I'll let someone else flesh it out if they feel like it. But I think the parallels fit well.
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 28, 2009, 02:29:03 PM
How about
"I'm KENNY POWERS. KENNY POWERS is a fucking champion. I can pull thru this and make a comeback. I just have to remember I'm better than everybody else."
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: KDR_11k on May 29, 2009, 09:24:40 AM
The number of people who really care about the "kiddy" image are really few. Nintendo lost ground because of a weaker game library, not because of their image.
Title: Re: The bookies in.
Post by: Deguello on May 29, 2009, 01:01:18 PM
Quote
This time it didn't work. But I think it certainly had a very negative effect on the success of the N64 and Gamecube. Sony and MS used Nintendo's negative image against them and it worked. They manipulated the gaming media and Nintendo was at the bottom because they met the negative exceptations almost exactly. Yeah they're on top now because they targetted a different audience.
Did they "really" target another audience though? I mean, OK, let's just stipulate that everybody who owns Wii Fit is a bona fide casual gamer that will never buy another video game ever and instead cultivate a hobby of cabbage-growing afterward (Which of course, isn;t true, but for the sake of this argument, it is.) That's, say... 20 million users. That leaves 30 million Wii owners who aren't interested in the flagship of casual games. That's no small number by any means, in fact it's exactly the same to slightly higher than the 360 userbase and much higher than the PS3's. Couple this with Nintendo's stable of franchises and several new IPs doing the same or better on Wii, and I'd say they are doing very well in the "traditional" sector. Of course, this changes as definitions change, but I'll get to that in a minute.
Quote
An audience that Sony and MS aren't targetting. An audience that the gaming media isn't targetted at. An audience that has only a moderate interest in gaming and thus doesn't even notice when Nintendo does things ass backwards.
I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. And holy hell yes MS and Sony have been trying to target this "market" with their cameras and simplistic rhythm games. They just usually fail at it so hard that it barely registers on the radar. And I'm not sure what that last sentence means, since every console maker does a few things "ass backwards" (Since this hasn't been stipulated exactly what this is) and nobody who owns any of them seems to care.
Quote
Nintendo still has a negative image with the old market. If the new market lost interest or Nintendo actually faced some serious competition in that market wouldn't this image be an issue again? Nintendo strikes me as someone who always lost the race because they showed up without training for it and with their shoelaces tied together but instead of getting their **** together they decided to make their own race where they would be the winners by default because they're the only participant. Which is a pretty clever thinking-outside-the-box idea and it's working but Nintendo never learned why they were losing the race or what they needed to do to actually compete so if someone ever joins their new race and beats them they'll be falling behind out-of-shape with their shoelaces tied together because they never addressed what was holding them back in the first place.
I'm not totally sure you've made your point clear, because the consequence of having this "image problem" before meant last place sales and such, and now it seems to mean "guys on the internet will not like you" and "websites will give you low scores" and "bloggers will make humorous posts before updating about what they found under their couch." Because of the high sales, it seems they got over the image problem of "kiddy" but then a new foe arises that seems taylor-made for this situation. "Casual." I mean think about it, Never before has a console been so popular with adults, real adults from 18-92, but now it's been labeled "casual" for some reason. But then who were all those kiddy-vanquishing rated-M titles aimed at?
You see what I'm getting at here? Even you fell prey to "changing the rules" as you switch from "kiddy image problem" to "wimpy image problem" and then go on about casuals some more. Guess you couldn't win the "kiddy image" race, eh?
In fact, let's look at the DS. Does it have an "image problem?" I don't think so. But in 2004 every website and its mirror was talking up how the DS was only going to be for kids and Nintendo die-hards and nobody else while the PSP will be a hit with the mainstream (Remember when mainstream was desirable, Ian?) and adults. See the labels being applied here? Now after the climactic battle, the dust has settling and the DS has thoroughly vanquished the PSP, mainly through their regular games like "kiddy-voice" Mario, "toony" Zelda, "POKEYMANS," "crippled online" Mario Kart, and the majority of adult portable users playing games like Brain Age, Nintendogs and such (sidenote, a LOT of these adults users play the regular titles too, I mean, otherwise explain the increased sales of all the previous games. Higher userbase? Sure, and that's because...)
When this happened, the sites and press went nuts because the horse they bet on was faltering in the face of random images of mature adults playing DS, exactly counter to what they had predicted. So a new label had to be formed and we've been under this "casual" crap ever since. Notice nobody can say "kiddy" anymore, because it just cannot apply. So now it's this amorphous definition of what is and isn't a game. Which is pretty bad for the labelers, IMHO, because "kiddy" has recognizable and commonly accepted traits. "Casual" and "Hardcore" do not.
Now look at today. The DS has no "image problem." Possibly because the games press seemed to not cover the portable market so much now that there's no "interest" (in other words, no "conflict") And this was tested recently when Sony did this little attack piece on the DSi on the day of it's launch, basically saying "DS is for kids LOL." It was ridiculous and even the websites that pushed PSP were groaning.
So the very same Nintendo that has an "image problem" with the Wii has no "image problem" on the DS. So what's different? Obviously it's the other end, right? So what is the source of the real problem?
And I'll finish with this. You seemed to characterize Nintendo as somebody being bullied and "deserving it" because they apply the label of "nerd" to his behavior and thus he will fit their description of "nerd" every time by simply being who he is. So the obvious solution is to conform to what the bullies want, right? (I never figured you to be one to push conformity, Ian.) And besides, what guarantee does the bullied kid have that they'll stop once he does conform, because he already did that once by conforming to "stop being kiddy," so to speak, and they continued anyway. Bullies seem to have a lot of power here.
