Post by: GeN on April 15, 2003, 09:17:30 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 15, 2003, 09:30:31 AM
2) Link has never been a Kokiri...only in OoT was he there because he was dropped off by his mother(he is Hylian)
3) Yep, the Zoras became the Rito(yet they get their wings from Valoo)
Post by: GeN on April 15, 2003, 10:54:47 AM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 15, 2003, 06:40:01 PM
D'oh!
Post by: Ridley on April 15, 2003, 06:46:21 PM
1. They'd be called kokiri.
2. TINY SPOILER (if it even qualifies as that, but better safe than sorry)
The Koroks leave the forest to plant trees. Kokiri cannot leave the forest or else they die.
END SPOILER
I'd guess that the koroks are more like descendants or something, but not the kokiri.
Post by: ThePerm on April 15, 2003, 06:48:50 PM
Post by: Gibdo Master on April 15, 2003, 08:30:17 PM
The Gorons were not wiped out. Look at the traders that you find at a couple of the islands. Notice how they look a lot like the Gorons? That's because they are the Gorons only with shirts and hats to hide their identity. They even have the little Goron symbol on their packs from Ocarina.
The Rito are descendants of the Zora. Laruto says that Link must find someone from her BLOODLINE to replace her as sage. Guess who he finds. Medli who is a Rito. It's also stated in the game that at sometime long ago that Valoo the dragon changed them and gave them their wings.
Did you people even bother reading any of the text from Wind Waker? Appearently not because everything I listed above was stated plain as day in the game. Well, okay the thing about the Gorons wasn't made clear but it's not exactly that big of a leap to say that the traders are Gorons.
Post by: BlkPaladin on April 15, 2003, 08:33:19 PM
The Rito are basically what the Zora turned into (its a reference to evolution.)
And the gorons surprisingly enough are still around. The traveling merchants in the sub-quest are all gorons.
Post by: ThePerm on April 15, 2003, 08:45:45 PM
so the zoras i beleive split on the evolutionary line.
Post by: Ridley on April 15, 2003, 08:48:38 PM
Then why aren't the koroks called kokiri and why could they leave the forest? If they were kokiri, they would die.
"The Rito are descendants of the Zora. Laruto says that Link must find someone from her BLOODLINE to replace her as sage. Guess who he finds. Medli who is a Rito. It's also stated in the game that at sometime long ago that Valoo the dragon changed them and gave them their wings."
Then why can't the koroks be descendants of the kokiri?
"Did you people even bother reading any of the text from Wind Waker? Appearently not because everything I listed above was stated plain as day in the game. Well, okay the thing about the Gorons wasn't made clear but it's not exactly that big of a leap to say that the traders are Gorons."
I not only read it, I ALSO paid attention to the stuff in OoT AND pieced everything together. So don't be accusing people of not reading when they have different conclusions than you.
"The Gorons were not wiped out. Look at the traders that you find at a couple of the islands. Notice how they look a lot like the Gorons? That's because they are the Gorons only with shirts and hats to hide their identity. They even have the little Goron symbol on their packs from Ocarina."
I still stand by gorons being wiped out until I see some real evidence.
Post by: Gibdo Master on April 15, 2003, 09:15:50 PM
QuoteI don't remember exactly but when the Deku Tree was talking about how the Koroks were once human he said that he changed them into their present form. Also you didn't say anything about the Koroks being descendants in your first post. You simply said they had been wiped out and that weren't the same. Of course they aren't exactly the same since you are being so technical. The Kokiri have a human form and the Koroks have a tree like form. At some point the Deku Tree simply turned the Kokiri into the Koroks much like Valoo changed the Rito and started giving them wings. Along with this transformation they were obviously given the ability to leave the forest. Nuff said.
Originally posted by: Ridley
"Umm, the Deku Tree himself said that the Koroks were once human and that they were scared of other people or something like that. Hmm, I wonder who that could be? Oh, I know, THE KOKIRIS."
Then why aren't the koroks called kokiri and why could they leave the forest? If they were kokiri, they would die.
"The Rito are descendants of the Zora. Laruto says that Link must find someone from her BLOODLINE to replace her as sage. Guess who he finds. Medli who is a Rito. It's also stated in the game that at sometime long ago that Valoo the dragon changed them and gave them their wings."
Then why can't the koroks be descendants of the kokiri?
QuoteSo I suppose if you see a dog you have to have some proof beyond the visual that it's a dog. Come on. They look exactly like the Gorons. They're big like the Gorons, the same color, and even have the little white goatee like the Gorons. Also the little symbol circling around the traders pack is the exact same symbol as the Gorons used on their banners and as tattoos on their arms. Is that enough proof for you?
Originally posted by: Ridley
"The Gorons were not wiped out. Look at the traders that you find at a couple of the islands. Notice how they look a lot like the Gorons? That's because they are the Gorons only with shirts and hats to hide their identity. They even have the little Goron symbol on their packs from Ocarina."
I still stand by gorons being wiped out until I see some real evidence.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 16, 2003, 07:36:08 AM
Social unrest.
Dark times indeed.
What's even darker was when I stole the traveling Goron's inn reservation in Majora's Mask and forced him to sleep outside.
Post by: couchmonkey on April 16, 2003, 07:50:45 AM
I don't think the traders look like the Gorons at all. They look like Giant Bunnies. Really: they wear hats to hide their ears, they have buck teeth and if I remember correctly, little red noses. And look at the totem poles inside Dragon Roost...they have Goron-like (and definitely not Zora-like) creatures with birds on top of them. The Rito also have Gerudo-like names and similar skin tones to the Gerudos...in fact they look a lot more like Gerudos than Zoras. Also note that the theme song for Dragon Roost is reminiscent of the theme for Gerudo valleyt. The blood-line thing is definitely persuasive, and I would tend to agree with it, but I think there are more questions than answers here.
Frankly I believe Nintendo made the exact origin of the Rito unclear on purpose. So everyone would try to figure it out, like we are now. I have my own guesses, but I won't bother expounding them here, because they are just that, guesses. I just wanted to point out that an absolute conclusion is difficult to make by bringing up a bunch of contradictory evidence.
Post by: Gibdo Master on April 16, 2003, 08:04:09 AM
QuoteYeah, it is when you bring up retarded contradictory evidence that doesn't even actually exist. So point taken very well.
Originally posted by: couchmonkey
I just wanted to point out that an absolute conclusion is difficult to make by bringing up a bunch of contradictory evidence.
Post by: Ridley on April 16, 2003, 03:26:18 PM
Yes I did. Read my first post again and this time read it all. I say so on the last line.
"You simply said they had been wiped out and that weren't the same"
Then let me clarify. The kokiri are gone. Now it's the koroks. Just like how the Zoras are gone and now its the Rito.
"Along with this transformation they were obviously given the ability to leave the forest. Nuff said."
If it was that simple, don't you think the kokiri would've had that ability before?
"So I suppose if you see a dog you have to have some proof beyond the visual that it's a dog"
No need to be mad just because I'm not as easily convinced as you are. I have discovered that the traders are gorons, but not because of your so-called "proof". I got their figurines in the Nintendo Gallery. It said their favourite food was rocks, like gorons, and their birthplace was unknown. Since they came from Death Mountain and it's probably become Dragon Roost (that other volcano is way too narrow), it would be unknown. That's the kind of evidence I look for. Not, they look similar.
Now, I want to know why you're so offended by my theory. It's just as valid as yours. You don't know anymore than I do, you just have a different conclusion about what happened. Maybe you forgot, but the starter of this thread wanted to know what happened to the kokiri. I gave my theory on it. I didn't claim that anyone else was wrong. I didn't claim to be right. I just stated what I figured. And then you seemed to get all offended and started trying make me change my mind. What was so offensive about my theory that you had to do this? Why couldn't you just accept mine is just as valid as yours?
Post by: couchmonkey on April 16, 2003, 04:19:11 PM
***Spoilers, although it's nothing that hasn't been discussed in here already...***
On further play, I must admit, the traders are likely the Gorons. Their lips and beards looked exactly like big noses and rabbit teeth to me, but on closer inspection they look exactly like Gorons.
But I stand by my "retarded" contradictory evidence. I still believe that the Gerudos may have a hand in the Rito bloodline, and I still believe Nintendo purposely included evidence to that effect. The Koroks are clearly direct descendants of the Kokiri and nobody else, the Deku Tree essentially tells us so. However, the only evidence that the Rito are derived from Zoras is that Medli is part of the Zora bloodline, and I don't believe any other evidence was given. This means that the Rito are almost certainly descendants of the Zoras, but it doesn't preclude them being descendants of the Gerudos as well. On the contrary, I think Nintendo purposely included evidence pointing to the Gerudos.
Post by: ThePerm on April 16, 2003, 06:14:25 PM
jabun= Jabu jabu
Valoo= Valvagia....or a relative
koroks = kokiri
traders = gorons...enormous guys with all the right characteristics and symbols....im going to pull out a hammer and see what one says.....
Rito= Ruto decendants.....
perhaps on the next game theyll have the remainingf sages.....they only had two of six.
Post by: BlkPaladin on April 16, 2003, 06:27:39 PM
Post by: Gibdo Master on April 16, 2003, 06:36:54 PM
I apologize for coming off a tad hostile but it really irritates me that when the game pretty much clearly states what happened to the Kokiri and Zora you have people coming up with there own theories as if though the game never mentioned anything about it.
My "retarded" remark was to this couchmonkey:
QuoteI'm pretty sure you were joking there because you can't see the traders teeth or nose. I went and checked. My point was is that you can makeup "counter evidence" all the live long day but it doesn't stop you from making absolute conclusions unless it based on actual fact.
They look like Giant Bunnies. Really: they wear hats to hide their ears, they have buck teeth and if I remember correctly, little red noses.
Post by: ThePerm on April 16, 2003, 06:40:22 PM
Post by: couchmonkey on April 17, 2003, 07:11:26 AM
For everyone's viewing pleasure, I direct you to this 10-second illustration: This is what my twisted mind saw when I ran into the traders. Red lines indicate the body, black lines indicate the clothing.
Post by: AquaVDevin on April 17, 2003, 11:42:32 AM
Post by: Ridley on April 17, 2003, 11:57:16 AM
Oh get over it. I don't consider it the same, but that's me. I've explained that I don't consider a similar appearance to be good enough. You don't like it? Tough.
"As a matter of fact a person could technically still argue that the traders aren't Gorons despite what the figurine description says much like the way you argued with my proof."
I know that, but after what I found, I believe they are gorons, but that's me. Someone doesn't want to believe that, it's their right, and I'll let them believe it.
"it really irritates me that when the game pretty much clearly states what happened to the Kokiri and Zora you have people coming up with there own theories as if though the game never mentioned anything about it."
Well, get over it. Not everyone in the world has to agree with you. I at first thought the koroks and the kokiri were the same, but then I found the inconsistencies I mentioned several times. That caused be reject it and come up with my own theory. Maybe you could try being a little more open-minded to other people's theories instead of forcing them to think what you want.
Post by: Chipopo on April 18, 2003, 08:23:16 AM
Quote
From Ridley's Signature
If the graphics are bad, I'll ignore them.
If the style's been used before, I won't care. I don't get sick of styles.
If the story is weak, I'll make up my own.
I only care about gameplay.
With your lackluster posting ability and complete failure to grasp simple logic, I find it doubtful that you could come up with a narrative more compelling then that of a videogames. Unless you're talking about Pong or something. In which case I still remain doubtful.
Post by: Hostile Creation on April 19, 2003, 01:52:04 PM
Post by: ThePerm on April 19, 2003, 08:50:36 PM
Post by: Hostile Creation on April 20, 2003, 10:39:23 AM
Post by: ThePerm on April 20, 2003, 05:05:27 PM
Post by: Gibdo Master on April 20, 2003, 05:56:34 PM
By the way this also proves that they are not giant rabbits.
Post by: ThePerm on April 20, 2003, 06:01:58 PM
Post by: Ridley on April 20, 2003, 08:49:24 PM
What was the purpose of that bash? Are you so close-minded that you have to take shots at anyone who comes to a conclusion that you don't agree with?
"Then again considering it would have been visual proof and I would have mentioned it it probably wouldn't have been good enough for Ridley anyway."
Why can't you just drop it already? I found the proof I wanted, I agree with you now, so drop it. Or would you rather I just stop thinking for myself and look to you for all the answers? That seems to be the only thing that would get you to get off my back.
Do you two always give so much trouble to someone who comes up with a theory different than yours? Why don't you just grow up and accept the fact that I don't have to agree with you. I have the right answer questions like the one in this thread with my ideas. This may shock you, but not everyone has to agree with you. I'm not expecting anyone to agree with mine, but I would appreciate if someone would at least open their mind to the possibility rather than just bashing me outright. But I guess that's just too much to ask out of some of you.
Post by: Hostile Creation on April 21, 2003, 12:52:16 PM
Gorons-> Traders
Zora-> Rito (perhaps an evolutionary split)
Kokiri-> Koroks
I'm not bashing anyone, but it seems pretty obvious to me. Go ask Miyamoto and he'll tell you the same. No new intelligent races magically appeared (except perhaps the map fish, but maybe they're zoras. . . bum bum BUM
). These are just the remnants of what were.
Post by: ThePerm on April 21, 2003, 08:18:37 PM
Nintendo gallery spoiler
"Okay, im gonna be really nice and give you a full mini-tutorial.
get the camera, its in the cell where Tingle was held (break the box to get to it), then take it to lenzo, take a pic of a guy in red mailing a letter, then the guy in the coffe shop while hes shaking, then the girl in orange when she looks at the young man as he walks by her.
Then go to forest haven and snatch a fat firefly (more light than the others) and give it to lenzo for a DX camera. Take a COLOUR picture of the Rito mailman behind the desk.
Then buy a puyo pear, go back to forest haven, climb to the top of the deku tree, go to the passage higher than the one with the arrow, fly to the small island with the hatch. Then use the pair to fly over to the swich on forest haven, go into the gallery and give the man your picture, then just wait 1 full day (in-game)."
those are the instructions nem on the zelda no densetu forums gives on obtainign the figurine of the runner.
Post by: general2k on April 29, 2003, 02:17:52 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
But that doesn't make any sense. I mean, I understand that they would be zoras, but why grow wings over an ocean when you had fins to start with. It's like humans losing their hands after they've made the doorknob.
I think th zoras grew wings cause i think they could only live in fresh water cause they lived in rivers and lakes never a ocean
Post by: ThePerm on April 29, 2003, 08:06:32 PM
Post by: temjin11 on April 30, 2003, 02:46:30 PM
-How did everything evolve so quickly?
-Where did the gorons come from?
-How do the Man-Fish survive, because they said in the game that the great sea was "empty and fishless"?
SPOILER!
-If Hyrule got flooded at the end of the game, shouldnt the water level in the great sea go down?
and the big questions:
-Who is links mother?
-Who is links father?
I've heard some speculation that his father was lenzo, but it was rumor. It makes sense, because his model says hes good with women.
Think, think, think...
Post by: Kimchi on April 30, 2003, 03:17:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ThePerm
apparently ruto got it on with the running man from oot who was the mailman in mm.....it seems theres a sidequest involving the camera that links the ruto to the running man. Also note...ruto are only redeyed people until they go see valoo...he makes them bird people not evolution...we'll note that they all have king zora's lovely red eyes.....but have a bit of hylian in them....
Nintendo gallery spoiler
"Okay, im gonna be really nice and give you a full mini-tutorial.
get the camera, its in the cell where Tingle was held (break the box to get to it), then take it to lenzo, take a pic of a guy in red mailing a letter, then the guy in the coffe shop while hes shaking, then the girl in orange when she looks at the young man as he walks by her.
Then go to forest haven and snatch a fat firefly (more light than the others) and give it to lenzo for a DX camera. Take a COLOUR picture of the Rito mailman behind the desk.
Then buy a puyo pear, go back to forest haven, climb to the top of the deku tree, go to the passage higher than the one with the arrow, fly to the small island with the hatch. Then use the pair to fly over to the swich on forest haven, go into the gallery and give the man your picture, then just wait 1 full day (in-game)."
those are the instructions nem on the zelda no densetu forums gives on obtainign the figurine of the runner.
Obtaining a figurine of the runner? I gave the sculptor a pictograph of Kobali (guy behind desk) and got a figurine of Kobali, not of the runner. His bio does mention a rumor about previous generations; That is what you're talking about, isn't it? I didn't do the exact course of events that you wrote; I'd already done most of those things of course, but I did give him a color picture of Kobali.
Post by: Syl on April 30, 2003, 04:10:03 PM
this is explained in Oracle of ages.
the "evil River Zora's" which are the ugly fish things that shoot fireballs in the 2d Zelda games
and the "ocean Zora's" (or the ones in OOT) that are completely sentient and an entire race.
I personally believe that windwaker is the final zelda game, which means it takes place after link to the past *spoiler* look at the placement of the castle in hyrule, and hyrule field, it STRONGLY resembles Link to the Past *end spoiler* and i also believe it is quite a bit longer after OOT than 100 years. That said, by the time of LTTP, most of the zora's are the evil river kind. The kind that eventually turned into the helpful manfish map people.
Now, becuase the "Ocean Zora's" turn into "Ocean" i believe they eventually find a living on the coast of some odd island somewhere (like where Oracle of Seasons/Ages takes place)
The Gerudo, being guided by the gods to find higher ground (or probably found out to go to higher ground through somewhere else) probably kicked the Gorons out, and became the Rito. maybe a Zora somewhere and a Gerudo had a happy family, which would explain the blood line thing. (However, where does it mention that they have to be from the same bloodline, i missed that.)
Now, the traders ARE goron. period. Theres no way around it. they ARE goron. The game even states this.
The Koroks are the kokiri, it explains this. now, you might say "if the kokori leave the forest they die" now, at the END of Ocarina of time, they are all dancing around in hyrule field, even the kokiri. and "they die" it means "they will grow old and die" not die instantly.
The Deku tree eventually turned them into the "koroks" for whatever reason seemed reasonable to him. now that they are koroks, i don't believe they could possibly grow older and die. so, they CAN leave the forest, not being able to grow old and die.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 30, 2003, 05:11:42 PM
"No, don't step out there!"
"huh?"
*Zeus zaps him with lightening*
*limp kokiri*
Post by: Lao-tzu on April 30, 2003, 06:29:53 PM
"If they leavethe forest they die, but in the end their dancing in the field"
COMMON.
They're in the field because they were characters in the game, and they needed to be in the ending. Nothing more, nothing less.
There is no signifiance to plot when you see Mido and co. around a bonfire of ALL THE CHARACTERS.
--
Having said that, if I were to make the rules, it would defignitly be a "they die because they grow old and feel the effects of aging, unlike how they are in the forest"
Post by: The Old Beane on May 01, 2003, 12:58:25 AM
I haven't read ALL of the replies so don't kill me if this hasn't already been said.
Alot of you are fussing over the gorons as being/not being the traders. Well, for a start, one of those jumping fish tell you about them, which strongly suggests gorons. And also some of you wanted proof. Well, just whip out your trusted deku leaf, and blow a gust of wind into the traders, and the hat will fly up revealing their face...their GORON face, I might add.
