NWR Interactive => Podcast Discussion => Topic started by: Jonnyboy117 on May 18, 2009, 09:53:41 AM
Title: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on May 18, 2009, 09:53:41 AM
Please discuss Zelda II - The Adventure of Link here. It's available for 500 Wii Points from Virtual Console in every region. Any post in this forum thread may be excerpted to be read on Radio Free Nintendo as part of our RetroActive feature.
The current plan is to discuss this game on Episode 148 (immediately before E3) and possibly Episode 150 (immediately after E3). If the 150th episode celebration plans become elaborate, we may push off a continuation to 151, another special episode in which we all drink Bacardi before and during the recording session.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on May 18, 2009, 09:58:18 AM
I'm glad we are playing this game, as it motivated me to finally download it for VC. I've played Zelda 2 a few times over the years, never getting too far. It may be my least favorite Zelda game, but I've never disliked it either.
After downloading it last night, I played for about 45 minutes straight and felt very comfortable with it. The controls, combat, and exploration are less awkward than I remember, or else my accumulated experience with the game is paying off. The music is quite awesome, though I hate some of the sound effects, like when you start a random battle. My approach to leveling up is to favor attack power first, then upgrade life when I'm almost dead, and only mess with magic when it's disproportionately cheap compared to the experience I'm getting from local enemies.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on May 18, 2009, 11:10:56 AM
I recently started a project to play through all of the console Zelda titles chronologically, and I started this one a week ago, so it's great that you guys picked it. I've always been partial to this game, if only because I feel like it gets an unfair amount of criticism from people who don't feel it's a real Zelda game. I think if this game didn't have the word "Zelda" on the front of the box, it would be remembered fondly as an NES gem, not a "black sheep."
As for my progress, I recently just finished the fourth palace, and got the water boots. The maze that leads to the fourth palace is pretty frustrating, especially when you have to go in there several times - first to get the item you need for the REFLECT spell, and also to go back in for the palace.
The key to leveling up in Zelda 2 is to try to gain a level up right before you finish each palace, so that the "free" level you get for beating the palace is as expensive a gift as possible, so to speak. After that, I used to just grind in Death Mountain for XP. The first 4-5 levels come quickly, however after that it slows way down.
I really enjoy the dungeons in this Zelda game, maybe moreso than the first Zelda. The upthrust and downthrust moves add a whole new dimension to combat, and are a lot of fun to use once you have them.
Great game, better than it's unfortunate reputation.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on May 18, 2009, 11:46:48 AM
This is one of the biggest games from my childhood. I like the first Zelda a lot, but for some reason I have more vivid memories of Zelda II.
Zelda II is a curious hybrid of genres. People ridicule Zelda II for being "different" from the other games in the series, but saying that is rather unfair. It introduced a lot of gameplay mechanics and ideas reprised in later games, such as more elaborate swordplay (you even learn new moves), towns with people you must interact with, and crude trading sequences.
There are definitely some obtuse moments in the towns, and I recall the caves before the final temple being brutal (unless you exploit a quirk of the tile-based overworld), but there's a lot of fun to be had.
Rather strangely, Zelda II provided my first exposure to RPG concepts such as random battles, an overworld distinctly different from towns/dungeons, and magical spells. I'm not sure I even recognized these things as RPG elements as a kid, since I had no other NES games that incorporated such things!
My biggest complaint about this game is the experience points system. First of all, the level-up system is a bit unbalanced. Since you get a "free" upgrade at the end of a temple, and later upgrades are far more expensive, it behooves you to grind at the beginning of the game. (The regenerating bubbles in the first dungeon are my favorite grinding spot.) In fact, if you don't, you'll likely be significantly underpowered at the end of the game. You must also be careful not to waste a freebie by clearing a temple when you almost have enough EXP for the next upgrade.
Interestingly, the worst aspect of the experience point system is largely mitigated by the VC's save state. Although the game has save files, their usefulness is somewhat undermined by the fact that they do not save your experience points. If I didn't plan ahead, I'd wind up having to either leave my NES on or sacrifice my EXP. I'd often commit suicide after a level-up just to save my data. The designers probably liked the idea of losing your experience points with a Game Over, but it was a poor design decision.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Sundoulos on May 18, 2009, 12:55:58 PM
My biggest complaint about this game is the experience points system. First of all, the level-up system is a bit unbalanced. Since you get a "free" upgrade at the end of a temple, and later upgrades are far more expensive, it behooves you to grind at the beginning of the game. (The regenerating bubbles in the first dungeon are my favorite grinding spot.) In fact, if you don't, you'll likely be significantly underpowered at the end of the game. You must also be careful not to waste a freebie by clearing a temple when you almost have enough EXP for the next upgrade.
You just reminded me of something. I think that on subsequent play-throughs of this game, I would always beat the bosses in each temple normally, but I always left the crystals in place until I needed them to reach the final temple. By end game, I would travel back to each temple and grab the free level-ups to get my final attack, health and experience upgrades. It was a little tedious, I suppose, but by the end-game, going back through the earlier temples was a bit of a breeze.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on May 18, 2009, 03:33:42 PM
Well I'm just going to post once here, no interest in debating Zelda II fans! I really do not like the game, it is game is a mish mash of RPG elements and side scrolling that NONE of it works. The enemy designs are uninspired and the Boss fights weren't that memorable (I did like the dragon boss though). Many reminded me of the lame midget sprites that were Metroid 1 that were used for Kraid and Ridley. Oh yeah the final bosses were terrible as well (come on the blue flying bird freak thing was about as stupid as can be, it didn't even really have any animations beyond flying around and throwing crap
The dungeon designs are pathetic, besides a few palette and color swaps they all look virtually the same with little distinguish each room. In fact they are so bad that every dungeon looks the same and it is almost impossible to tell where you are, there are no landmarks to go by, just lots of the same. The game is pretty non-linear though like Zelda 2 but that is the only good thing about this mess. Thankfully for future iterations Nintendo took the decent aspects from this game (villager interaction, and a bit of the magic system) and dumped the rest into gaming oblivion. Oh, you also have LIVES in this RPG/Adventure/Mutant freak of a game. No wonder Miyamoto said this game was one of his true failures. It shows that the game was punted out the door with minimal development time not to mention from what I recall it LACKED many of the major team members behind the original, a sure sign of a cash in.
I would say the opposite of what others saying, if it was not a Zelda game it wouldn't have nearly as many supporters. It would be seen as a game with some unique ideas but poor and seemingly rushed execution. There is a reason why Nintendo dropped it like the plague even though it sold pretty well.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Caliban on May 18, 2009, 04:08:17 PM
Superplay: The sequel, Zelda II: Adventures of Link was a very different game. Why was this? And why have you never done anything like it again?
Shigeru Miyamoto: It was my idea, but the actual game was developed by another team, different people to those that made the first game. Compared to Legend of Zelda, Zelda II went exactly what we expected... All games I make usually gets better in the development process, since good ideas keep coming, but Zelda II was sort of a failure...
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: gojira on May 18, 2009, 06:01:12 PM
I never owned the NES Zelda games as a kid. When playing them at friends' houses Zelda II always was more approachable to me. It's probably because it was more like the other games I played back then (Mario, Castlevania and other side scrolling games.)
When I finally put in some real time into Zelda II years later I still enjoyed it, but never completed it. Despite liking the game more than many other Zelda games, it's the only one I still haven't beaten to this day.
Now getting the game on VC, I vow to finally beat the game. So far I'm having a lot of fun and a good deal of frustration. The way Link controls is very fun. Running around jumping and attacking in this game has always been great. But the weird experience/lives/continue system takes some getting used to. Plus Link's sword has always felt very short. But fighting the skeletons and knights is very satisfying.
It wasn't until I read this thread that I realized that you could choose how to level up. I've never read the manual or a guide, so when your only two options are upgrade or cancel, I always chose upgrade. That adds a good deal more to the game for me.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Caliban on May 18, 2009, 06:36:18 PM
Superplay: The sequel, Zelda II: Adventures of Link was a very different game. Why was this? And why have you never done anything like it again?
Shigeru Miyamoto: It was my idea, but the actual game was developed by another team, different people to those that made the first game. Compared to Legend of Zelda, Zelda II went exactly what we expected... All games I make usually gets better in the development process, since good ideas keep coming, but Zelda II was sort of a failure...
Thank you.
"Sort of a failure", call me a Zelda II fanboy, but from what I read he did not say "it was a failure", nor "it was a true failure". Isn't that right GP?
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Mop it up on May 18, 2009, 06:47:37 PM
My NES is packed away right now so I might play this on the Game Boy Advance.
Zelda II is an example of why companies are afraid to experiment with a beloved franchise, and this was released back before Zelda even was an established franchise. Even to this day people still complain about this game as being a failure. This game was an important step in Zelda game development, as it helped determined which elements worked and which ones didn't. Had this game not existed, something tells me Zelda 3 would have been quite a different game.
This game has the best dungeon music of any Zelda game ever, although that might not be saying much. Most Zelda games released after this tended to have more atmospheric music, which I guess was supposed to set some sort of mood. I find myself preferring the music of old, I guess it helped to get me pumped or something. The remix in Super Smash Brothers Melee would have been awesome if used in a dungeon in The Wind Waker or something.
If Zelda II didn't have the Zelda name, it would become similar to Battle of Olympus, a game which plays a lot like Zelda II: remembered fondly by all who played it as an overlooked gem.
At the end of the day, the worst Zelda game is still better than 80% of all other games.
The dungeon designs are pathetic, besides a few palette and color swaps they all look virtually the same with little distinguish each room. In fact they are so bad that every dungeon looks the same and it is almost impossible to tell where you are, there are no landmarks to go by, just lots of the same.
The first Zelda game was the same way. The only difference was that you had a map, which would have helped for this game.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on May 18, 2009, 09:23:25 PM
I love Battle of Olympus! But I haven't played it in many, many years. I keep hoping that it will resurface for Virtual Console or something similar.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: gojira on May 18, 2009, 11:16:42 PM
Just a little note: even though it sucks restarting at the castle when you die. It is kinda nice having a reminder of why you're doing what you're doing in the game. Usually princesses are taken far far away and it's easy to forget why you're going level to level defeating foes. And if you've never beaten the game like I have, you feel like Zelda has never woken up. It's almost as bad as beating Rez and the game tells you 'she' is still locked inside.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on May 18, 2009, 11:39:26 PM
I've always been amused by how Punch-Out!! for the NES borrowed many of this game's sound effects.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Mop it up on May 18, 2009, 11:54:58 PM
That's an interesting piece of trivia.
There is a line in this game's manual that surprised me a bit. In the section which recants the backstory of the game, it says this:
"The key to Ganon's return was the blood of Link - the valiant lad who overthrew the King of Evil. Ganon would be revived by sacrificing Link and sprinkling his blood on the ashes of Ganon."
I know, this is tame compared to the games of today, but in the NES era games weren't even allowed to contain blood. That's why I didn't expect to see it. It seems like game manuals didn't follow the heavy restrictions that the games themselves did...
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on May 19, 2009, 01:28:26 AM
I love Battle of Olympus! But I haven't played it in many, many years. I keep hoping that it will resurface for Virtual Console or something similar.
I'll second that notion. I always thought there were similarities between the two as well. I was checking out a youtube video on Battle of Olympus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkbd63TMvKY), and you can see some obvious similarities between the two games, particularly in the hero's character design and the backgrounds inside the houses. I think Battle of Olympus was released a little over a year later than Zelda 2 in Japan, and it has aged much, much better. The game, overall looks more visually interesting than Zelda; that year made a big difference.
I say this because I started my playthrough of Zelda 2 last night. One thing that struck me: the game's backgrounds and color pallete are far more bland and Spartan than I remember. I'm far more fond of some of the enemy character sprites, though. I still think the Goriyas, Stalfos, Ironknuckles (Darknuts), Lizardmen, Bird Knights, etc. look very, very cool. As a kid, I was so taken with the whole Zelda mythos, that I loved seeing these guys return in this game.
Also, the text seems painfully primative, and the translation is horrible. For instance, one of the early clues in the first town, Rauru, is misleading. I believe one of the NPCs say something like, "Get candle in Parapa Palace. Go West." Well, Parapa palace (and the candle) are both in the east, which leads me to believe that the intended meaning was to go west after you get the candle. As a young kid, I wasted a lot of time at the beginning of this game as a kid trying to find where I should go.
Anyway, that interview with Miyamoto is very interesting. It sounds as if they took one of Miyamoto's original concepts, but that he didn't really have that much say in the final product. Perhaps at that point in his career, he didn't have the autonomy over projects that he appears to have now.
Still, even if Zelda 2 was "sort of a failure", there are elements from that game that were used in many of the later Zeldas. The game introduced the Triforce of Courage. The names of the towns that were used as the names of the Sages in OoT (with the exception of Impa), one town was also named Mido (the character in Kokori forest in OoT). The reflective shield (only implemented as a spell here) was used later on as the mirror shield in various sequels. Last but not least, this is the first use of Link's shadow as a boss character. I was actually disappointed that Link's Shadow was the FINAL boss in Zelda 2, especially after they teased the return of Ganon in the manual and the game. I suppose that this made more narrative sense since this was more of a personal quest for Link, and he had to face his "dark side" in order to obtain the Triforce of Courage. There are probably others, but I can't think of them right now.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on May 19, 2009, 03:22:08 PM
I think this is easily the hardest Zelda game. I've had to continue a few times already, which really does suck since your experience resets to zero. Still, I have gained at least one level on each continue, so it's not like I'm spinning my wheels. Just beat the second temple; now I'm exploring that maze of caves. I can't wait to find the hammer so I can take some shortcuts on the world map.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Sundoulos on May 19, 2009, 05:05:14 PM
I haven't played this game in years; I died twice last night while attempting to level up...even before even making it to the first palace. This, in part, is probably because I'm just not used to games with this level of difficulty anymore. By the time I made it to the palace, I think I found my rhythm again.
By the way, I hate the enemies that steal your experience when they hit you. I had forgotten about that.
One of the things that I do enjoy about the game is the swordplay, though. As gojira mentioned, battling some of the foes, such as the Stalfos and Ironknuckles, are a lot of fun. I think it even gets better once you learn the upward and downward stab moves.
P.S. - The game is rather hard. There's a lot I don't remember about the game, but I do remember that the final palace was really difficult, as is the final trek to get there.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on May 19, 2009, 10:40:29 PM
I like how this game retains some flexibility in terms of the order in which you do things, in spite of its linear nature. For example, if you're daring you can explore some caves reasonably well before you get the candle, and you can trek for the hammer before or after the second temple.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Mop it up on May 20, 2009, 06:39:59 PM
Also, the text seems painfully primitive, and the translation is horrible. For instance, one of the early clues in the first town, Rauru, is misleading. I believe one of the NPCs say something like, "Get candle in Parapa Palace. Go West." Well, Parapa palace (and the candle) are both in the east, which leads me to believe that the intended meaning was to go west after you get the candle. As a young kid, I wasted a lot of time at the beginning of this game as a kid trying to find where I should go.
Ha ha, I love the poor text in this game, it's hilarious. I remember I always had trouble remembering which directions east and west were, and because of this game I had east and west mixed up for years. I still don't always get it right...
My favourite line is "When all else fails, use fire." True words of wisdom right here folks. I also like that guy who says "I am Error."
I like how this game retains some flexibility in terms of the order in which you do things, in spite of its linear nature. For example, if you're daring you can explore some caves reasonably well before you get the candle, and you can trek for the hammer before or after the second temple.
I once tried to complete the game without ever getting the candle, but I didn't get very far. There's no way to get past that maze of caves unless you've perfectly memorized each and every one.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: adadad on May 20, 2009, 11:14:30 PM
I really enjoyed Zelda 2 when I was playing it back in 2007, as I said in the earlier thread I had more fun with this than with Twilight Princess due to its different mechanics and challenging but fun combat. Unfortunately I don't have access to a Wii or NES so I can't play along this time, but I was wondering, can you guys tell me how far into the game I was and some idea of how much there is to go after that till the end? I never had a sense of how much there really was to do or how lengthy the quest would be and I'm quite curious.
I got the candle and hammer and finished the exploration of the caves in the south west...and I remember a task involving looking for a hidden place in a graveyard, but after that I don't think I had gotten to a subsequent temple.
The NPC interaction stuff is needlessly complicated due to the poor translation so that aspect I found surprisingly difficult, a complete contrast to the overly cloying usage of coloured text to indicate a message of significance in the 3D Zeldas. Wish they would find a compromise between these two extremes.
The temples were generally quite enjoyable, I love the statues at the entrance, I seem to remember they'd give you health most of the time when you attacked them but once the statue came to life and attacked? Would really like to play this again. Of course the music is fantastic which really helps the fun gleaned from the dungeons, but it's more than that. It was talked about on RFN about how Zelda was made for 3D before it was technically feasible, but in this case I feel the 2D approach Zelda 2 took lends itself to an entirely different form for the dungeons that disposes with that line of thought - I don't find this game to anticipate 3D. The 2D scrolling screen makes these dungeons feel far more like Metroid or Prince of Persia than what would now be called Zelda. This is because the modern 3D Zeldas greatly take advantage of their extra dimension and dungeons are a linear set of rooms, each generally a self contained puzzle or event with an occasional manipulation of a central mechanism in the hub of a level (Water temple in OOT). Zelda 2 is bound by its lack of items and reliance on combat instead of environmental puzzles, and navigating the dungeon feels more engaged with the RPG and action elements of its DNA, RPG-like grinding and combat, as opposed to the puzzle/adventure aspects which became more prevalent in more recent years. The layout of dungeons is also altered too, and I mentioned Metroid earlier because of the side scrolling dimensions meaning rooms can only have four possible exits (left to right, right to left, or lifts going up or down) and the difference in perspective necessitate a lack of complexity in layout and add the need to backtrack. Backtracking, whilst kept down to an extent, is far more prevalent here than with the overhead perspective. Similarly the repetition of graphics in the backrounds etc. and the abundance of enemy encounters (resulting in a scarcity of architectural uniqueness) makes navigational memory a pertinent tool to get through the dungeons. Sharply at ends with the traditional notions of seeking out the map and compass in order to gain advance knowledge of notable locations in a dungeon, i.e. the boss' lair.
Anyway I guess I'm taking a long time to get to a short point; overall I enjoyed the differently emphasised gameplay aspects in this game to other Zeldas, but that doesn't by any means make it a great game, yet such a departure inevitably has repercussions beyond merely the limited scope of the game itself for the series as a whole. Significant without being magnificent. For this alone I feel it deserves praise as I'm sure many are with me in agreement that there is a staleness to the Zelda series due to its predictability.
I find it interesting that the discussion in this thread has addressed the flexibility of linearity in the game, and there's a parallel with the game in its context as a member of the Zelda club, as I found that coming at this game after experiencing the monotony of the series as a whole since Link to the Past notarises its differentiating factors - note that I'm only saying this in reference to certain recurring tropes, most notably the dungeons, as they form a sizeable bulk of each game's content. Link's Awakening was my first and consequently most enjoyable Zelda for me personally, and all further entries with the exception of the mild kick in the balls jolt of the third dimension continued along the same tropes predictably mechanically and structurally despite a number of aesthetic and cosmetic changes. Coming to Zelda 2 in 2007 after the establishment of the series as a whole is what makes this whole retroactive discussion so worthwhile. Suddenly the precedent for a different approach to dungeons, to an overworld, to combat, to life and death and to perspective is set in stone and stands to me as a great source of potential for the future.
How does this game stand to impact upon the future of the Zelda series and the next entry in the series? Does the promise of change and the roughness of Zelda 2 suggest a refinement of its core mechanics might be in the works? Too drastic some might say, but look what a shift in emphasis did for the Resident Evil series.
Ok that's enough soliloquising.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on May 20, 2009, 11:30:46 PM
"I am Error." is not a translation error; that character becomes important later, and he is still called Error by another character. I suspect it was a programmer's joke more than anything.
adadad's mention of dungeons comprising the bulk of most Zelda games made me realize something. In Zelda II, you spend as much time in caves as you do the temples (dungeons).
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Mop it up on May 20, 2009, 11:52:17 PM
Adadad, it's interesting to read the impressions of someone who has played this game long past its prime.
Here's another interesting tidbit from the manual (no I haven't started playing the game yet): It states that the save battery will last for five years. It's been about twenty years now and my copy still holds saves. You gotta love how conservative Nintendo is with their numbers.
"I am Error." is not a translation error; that character becomes important later, and he is still called Error by another character. I suspect it was a programmer's joke more than anything.
I know, I didn't say it was a translation problem, just that I think it's funny. The other line I mentioned isn't a mistranslation either, it just sounds humourous as a piece of wisdom.
I'm not sure if the time you spend in caves and temples is a 50/50 split, because most temples seem larger than the caves you trek though before them. But there's definitely a lot of cave dwelling in the game. Maybe they should have called it The Legend of Zelda: Spelunker of Time.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on May 21, 2009, 10:26:59 AM
adadad, it sounds to me like you were between temples 2 and 3, out of 7 total. You were probably about 30-35% of the way through the game.
I've now gotten all of the magic and health containers, leveled up to 7-8-8, and am headed into the 6th palace. Really enjoying this, more than I even expected to considering I played through it as recently as 2006.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: gojira on May 21, 2009, 10:27:54 PM
I'm on the final temple now. And thank god when you die you continue from the beginning of the temple. It took me a life and a half just getting there. I've only played a bit of the level, but I was totally surprised to see a bunch of new enemies. Giant slime thing? WTF?
When I read some of the posts about leveling up I was a bit put off. But I got to the last temple fully leveled without really grinding. Sure I did a little grinding to avoid losing my exp before losing my final life, but it was nowhere near Dragon Warrior grinding. Also I remember the bosses being hard, but I didn't have much trouble this time.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Mop it up on May 22, 2009, 01:39:03 AM
The final temple in this game is epic. It presents more challenge than you might be expecting, and the music is excellent. I always get it stuck in my head afterward.
When you get one of the extra life pickups hidden on the overworld, it will be gone for the rest of the game. I always leave them there and grab them all before taking the final trek to the Great Temple.
I agree that there really isn't much level grinding in the game, so long as you manage your experience points well. You have to make the temple level up worth it or else you'll have to make up for it by grinding; one way to do this is strategic use of the "cancel" feature. You also shouldn't avoid enemies, especially high-point value ones. And save that last 8,000-point level for beating the temple before the final one.
Most of the bosses are only difficult before you learn their attack patterns. After you figure out what they do and get into a rhythm of striking them, they are fairly easy. The only boss who gives me trouble is the very final enemy. After all these years I still haven't figured out what you're supposed to do, I just jump around striking randomly and hope for the best.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Sundoulos on May 22, 2009, 07:38:24 AM
Most of the bosses are only difficult before you learn their attack patterns. After you figure out what they do and get into a rhythm of striking them, they are fairly easy. The only boss who gives me trouble is the very final enemy. After all these years I still haven't figured out what you're supposed to do, I just jump around striking randomly and hope for the best.
There are a couple of ways to beat him consistently.
The cheap and really easy way is to crouch in the left corner of the screen and do a crouching stab as Shadow Link approaches. The way I normally used to do it was to jump and do a normal stab just as I reached his head, just above the shield. If you time your strike correctly, he can't really block it. Actually, I always used the same strategy on the Ironknuckles as well.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: NWR_DrewMG on May 22, 2009, 08:45:33 AM
I just wrote up a blog post about this game, since I'm in the middle of a franchise re-play. Here it is, if you'd like to read it.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: yoshi1001 on May 22, 2009, 07:29:32 PM
I've actually played this game several times on the GameCube Zelda compilation disk. A year and a half ago, I did a video review which you can see here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RHBNhWIf6A
The basic problem with the leveling mechanic is that after the major gains that come with the first few levels, the later boosts become less than useful. As a result, the hardest parts are the beginning of the game, where you're not very powerful and extremely vulnerable, and the end of the game, where your levels don't improve enough to match the sharply increasing difficulty. It would have been nice if the levels went up to 10 or 12 instead of 8 to bring things back in line (or if enemies would occasionally drop hearts instead of just magic jars and point bags).
There are other problems with the game as well-namely the lack of interesting dungeon items (of the six from temples, three are map items, and two are just visibility items), and the fact that jumping off a cliff usually results in the loss of a life (rather than losing a heart as in later Zelda games) but occasionally is needed to progress in dungeons is inconsistent and frustrating. The game also feels sparse-no money, no shops, just experience points. Still, the game is fine as an occasional play, so I guess the "black sheep" of the Zelda family is still better than the "sheep dung" on the CD-i.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: gojira on May 22, 2009, 07:51:52 PM
Worst experience so far: I was one point away from leveling up and on my last life. I see two slime things. I sell out to take down one slime knowing that the second would kill me, but only after getting my level up. Only problem... first slime drops a bottle.
Best experience so far: Giant Slime in the final temple?!?!?
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: adadad on May 22, 2009, 08:53:42 PM
Good article, I agree with your assessment. Swordfighting is the best aspect of the game and the overworld is primarily padding.
Towns were always baffling. Just plain freaky places, some villagers turning into bats before your eyes out to kill you whilst two doors down the street a lady of the night (practicing in broad daylight!) is always willing to service Link! Lot more exciting than the bumpkin-riffic village of Ordon from Twilight Princess.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: gojira on May 22, 2009, 10:29:11 PM
Finished the game, woot! Zelda will not sleep forever!
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on May 23, 2009, 04:58:58 PM
To me Zelda II has been the black sheep of the franchise, my guess was Miyamoto and his team were trying to figure out how to progress the series so they used Zelda II as the experiment and see which Zelda formula would be used in the later games. While it is my least favorite in the series that I have played (I will never attempt to play the CD-i monstrosities), it's still enjoyable in it's own merits and is far from a bad game.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: TJ Spyke on May 23, 2009, 07:13:31 PM
There are a couple of ways to beat him consistently.
The cheap and really easy way is to crouch in the left corner of the screen and do a crouching stab as Shadow Link approaches. The way I normally used to do it was to jump and do a normal stab just as I reached his head, just above the shield. If you time your strike correctly, he can't really block it. Actually, I always used the same strategy on the Ironknuckles as well.
I've tried both of those strategies and can't seem to get them to work. I think it is cheating to do that on the IronKnuckles but I still use it on the blue ones because they are exasperating.
Best experience so far: Giant Slime in the final temple?!?!?
Ha ha, yeah, that is awesome. You're just walking along minding your own business, then all of a sudden a giant slime comes out of nowhere and falls on your head.
This post looks like a Government document...
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on May 24, 2009, 03:09:10 PM
I'm starting to feel that this may be one of the best action games on NES. By the third temple, I started to get into a groove with the rhythm and feel of combat and platforming. (Also, the game is more fun once you have down-strike.)
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on May 24, 2009, 05:03:11 PM
I'm starting to feel that this may be one of the best action games on NES. By the third temple, I started to get into a groove with the rhythm and feel of combat and platforming. (Also, the game is more fun once you have down-strike.)
I personally wouldn't go that far and say that it's one of the best NES action games. To me it felt like there was something missing in Zelda II and I really can't put my finger on it.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Nick DiMola on May 24, 2009, 05:39:18 PM
I'm starting to feel that this may be one of the best action games on NES. By the third temple, I started to get into a groove with the rhythm and feel of combat and platforming. (Also, the game is more fun once you have down-strike.)
I personally wouldn't go that far and say that it's one of the best NES action games. To me it felt like there was something missing in Zelda II and I really can't put my finger on it.
Fun?
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Caliban on May 25, 2009, 01:32:25 AM
What's missing in Zelda II is definitely boredom.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Sundoulos on May 26, 2009, 11:01:01 AM
I'd say that if anything is missing from Zelda 2, it's the active item-use that is so well-integrated in most other Zelda games. In the original Zelda, you have a nice mixture of items that either passive (for example, those that augment Link's defense) or those that can actively be used as weapons. Part of the fun of the original Zelda came from experimentation with the items; it was fun playing around with items just to see what effects they would have on certain enemies.
That experimentation factor is lost in Zelda 2. Most of the items in Zelda 2 can not be actively used by the player; they simply augment Link's abilities in some way. Even the items that the player can actively employ are only useful in a handful of places in the game.
The game makes up for this with some of the additional sword moves and magic spells that are earned throughout the game, and, don't get me wrong, these additions are fun. Still, there were really only 2 or three spells that I ever used with any regularity. Most spells were pretty useless, and one of the useful offensive spells comes with a very high MP cost. With the exception of the upward and downward strike, they don't drastically change how you play the game.
Anyway, I'm still on the third temple; I'm moving through this gradually. Being a husband and a dad to a 19 month- old, my gaming time is virtually non-existent these days.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on May 26, 2009, 02:46:42 PM
I just learned something potentially game-changing, something I never realized before when playing Zelda II. I was starting to wonder about the usefulness of leveling up magic, because it seemed to only reduce the cost of certain spells, and usually not the most useful ones (e.g. Life). I've seen Jump get discounted twice now, and it's not expensive in the first place! After seeing the cost of Jump drop to only 8 magic points yesterday, I realized that I had Jump selected while the level up took place, because I had just defeated the 5th Temple boss.
Hypothesis: You choose which spell's cost will be reduced by a magic upgrade, according to which spell is selected at the time. If this is true, and I had known about it earlier, I'd be casting Life for practically nothing by now...
Can anyone confirm or disprove this hypothesis, either from experience or by trying it out on your next level up? I'm already at magic level 7, so it's going to be a while before I get another chance.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Sundoulos on May 26, 2009, 04:09:46 PM
Unfortunately, the spell costs are predetermined by your current Magic level. Some spells (e.g. Jump and Reflect) are reduced in cost at every nearly level gain. The cost of the Life Spell never gets lower than 50 MP.
Here's a gamefaq (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/nes/file/563487/49513) detailing it if you want a reference.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on May 26, 2009, 04:16:32 PM
Ahh, thanks for the info. Guess I just need to find the last magic container if I want to use Life more often! At least this means I haven't been screwing myself throughout the game.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: yoshi1001 on May 26, 2009, 07:46:24 PM
I'd say that if anything is missing from Zelda 2, it's the active item-use that is so well-integrated in most other Zelda games. In the original Zelda, you have a nice mixture of items that either passive (for example, those that augment Link's defense) or those that can actively be used as weapons. Part of the fun of the original Zelda came from experimentation with the items; it was fun playing around with items just to see what effects they would have on certain enemies.
That experimentation factor is lost in Zelda 2. Most of the items in Zelda 2 can not be actively used by the player; they simply augment Link's abilities in some way. Even the items that the player can actively employ are only useful in a handful of places in the game.
That's one of the major improvements of LttP. Because the items themselves use magic there, magic feels a lot more useful and has more interesting behavior. Of course, you still have the three Zelda II-like spells, contained in the medallions.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: llaffer on May 27, 2009, 12:48:21 AM
This is the first time I chose to participate in the Retroactives (I avoided SG&G like the plague).
I have played this several times when I was a kid, playing multiple times through. And then every 2-5 years or so, have played it through to the last area where I usually find something else to draw my attention.
I thought I had bought this before from WiiVC, but I guess I played it on the GameCube from the collector's pack, so I had to buy it again - not a bad $5.
So far, I've played about an hour. Remembering how things went, I collected a few of the early items, and got the first two spells before going into the first temple.
Then in the first temple, I really took my time killing everyhing, including those damned bubbles that take 83 strikes to kill. But a well worth 50 XP, when it only costs 200 or so to level the attack.
I finish the first boss and I'm leveled up to 3-1-3, and sitting at 91 XP out of the 100 to level up the magic. I didn't want to waste the crystal insertion on that, so I ran around until I found a spawn point of a blue blob. I kill it, move out, move in, kill it, etc. I'm at 99XP, and the next kill drops a damned bottle (who thought that potions should be a replacement to XP should be shot). Anyway,. I got the 101/100, passed on the magic upgrade, then turned in the crystal to get my XP up to 800/800 (of which, I passed that, and didn't take long to get to 1000/1000 to get my attack to 4.
A little more running around, and I get to the second dungeon. The parts that really frustrate me the most is the random movement of those blobs. You think they're moving one way, and then jump another. In one area of the level, I try to jump up onto a bridge, over a death drop, and I get hit by the blob, and fall back at a different angle from where I jumped from, so land in the death drop. I do this 3 times, lose all my lives. Saved and quit at this point.
I'll try to play more of this over the weekend. But other than the last 5 minutes, I was enjoying playing through it again.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: buttle on May 29, 2009, 12:13:50 AM
i've just finished the second temple. i bought the game today, and it took me all afternoon to get to that point. i've leveled up to 4 for all three.
i don't get why the townsfolk was telling me the candle was to the west, when it was to the north east. i searched that west town up and down before i just started making my way into dark caves. i don't mind the lack of help, but i could do without the misleading tips.
i'm remembering why i quit this game when i was younger. it's the only zelda i haven't finished. but i'm going to stick with it.
it's funny, i quit because an area was simply too hard, but back then i didn't know about leveling and grinding. but now that i know what i'm doing, i can see it's a really funny system. the trails, the fairies, the different enemies and different environments.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Stratos on May 29, 2009, 06:14:57 PM
This is your first post, Buttle. Welcome to the forums!
I'm hoping that I can play catchup on this title with you all once my first paycheck for my new job comes in. I only played it a little bit back in the day.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on May 30, 2009, 01:58:46 AM
You've got some time, Stratos (and anyone else who hasn't started yet). Part one of the on-air discussion is going out next episode, but then we'll take a week off from RetroActive for E3 coverage.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Mop it up on May 30, 2009, 03:19:59 AM
I haven't started it yet. I guess this will give me more time to make excuses play it.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: buttle on May 30, 2009, 10:45:34 AM
This is your first post, Buttle. Welcome to the forums!
I'm hoping that I can play catchup on this title with you all once my first paycheck for my new job comes in. I only played it a little bit back in the day.
yeah, i'd been meaning to go back and beat this game for a while. and this retroactive pushed me over the edge, so i figured i'd join in and be part of the discussion.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: llaffer on May 31, 2009, 01:06:01 AM
Just played through the fourth dungeon, and died in the fifth. I seem to remember more of the game than I thought I would. Still enjoying myself. 3 continues used, in the middle of the fifth dungeon, and my skills are 7-6-7.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: buttle on May 31, 2009, 10:01:01 AM
5 temples in. this is an odd odd game. i thin the biggest thrill is that it's a zelda game but it's so different from the others. you've got no one holding your hand and telling you anything which is really refreshing. and the 2d controls, fighting, and exploring is great.
on it's still just strange. i just beat a temple where i couldn't get to one of the keys. but i was able to turn into a fairy and go through the lock. what's with the invisible walls in the water. some of these bad guys have very questionable hit points. in the temples you can sometimes make it to the boss, before getting the special item. and the whole map lay out. it's all just strange. the graphics when link is running down.
i'd say more but i have to run off to work.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: buttle on June 03, 2009, 09:41:49 PM
so, i had a hell of a time finding and playing through the 6th temple. there's basically a hidden city, you need to find the hidden temple. and i found it confusing that i could get to the final temple, i just couldn't go inside.
but thanks to a walkthrough, i got to the temple. i got the cross, but i couldn't figure out how to progress any farther. so i went back to the walkthrough and it mentioned something about using a fairy while falling down the pit. so i did this, but i must have done it wrong, because i didn't turn into a fairy until i got to the bottom. and i had walls on both sides.
and i hadn't actually saved in a while, since with the VC, i can just go to the wii menu and come back exactly where i came from. and it never really occurred to me that my progress wasn't saving.
so, after finding no way out of the room, i reset the game. and the last time i saved was a long long while back. so with that, i think i'm done. this will remain the only zelda game i haven't beat. but i think i'm okay with that. i do think that this is an awful awful game. there's a little magic here and there. but you've got to go through some major sh*t to get to it.
i would say that i would absolutely love it, if another 2d zelda came out. not a metroid rip off. but the zelda formula, with traditional temples, overworld, and townsfolk. just all in 2d. and the smash bros. controls would be nearly perfect. this is just a dream though.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Mop it up on June 04, 2009, 03:27:50 AM
After listening to the Episode 148 podcast today it got me wanting to play this game.
Admission time: the reason I was putting off playing this game is because I know that I no longer possess the skill necessary to complete it. But it has been a while since last I played it and so I want to give it another go even knowing I'm not going to make it all the way through. I didn't feel like lugging out the good ol' NES so I'm playing this on The Legend of Zelda Collector's Edition.
So far I've just completed the first temple. Got the first heart and magic bottle, the Shield and Jump spells and am ready to head to palace 2 next time around. I'm not even going to say how long it took me to do all of that, but 2 hours is probably not as long as it took for everyone else.
I used to keep track of how many strikes it took to defeat each enemy, I think I even made a list once. I don't really remember all of that now, but I think I still remember what it takes for those flying spark things (who by the way are really exasperating baddies, with their magic-sapping and all). It's always a multiple of eight if I recall correctly, and I think it goes like this: Level 1: 128 hits Lvl 2: 96 L3: 64 (!) 4: 48 5: 36 6: 30 7: 24 8: 16 I reached Level 3 when I played so I can confirm the first three counts, but after that I'm not sure. I will have to test this as I play further...
This game could have used one more music track to be used in the caves. The caves use the same music as the random battles and the action sequences when you step on special tiles, and the caves could use some more eerie music anyway. The piece of music is a little too repetitive to be used so often.
One reason the text is so poor is because they limited it to such tiny text boxes. In that small allotted space there is no way they could write out detailed descriptions or even complete sentences. I guess it was too much to ask for expanded text area or scrolling text boxes... Too taxing on the hardware? Or just too lazy?
There were a couple things mentioned in the podcast which I wanted to comment on.
Another bad thing about having certain areas being nondescript tiles on the map is that if an enemy runs into you as you are stepping onto the tile, you won't enter the area after the battle. At certain points, such as when you are searching for the river man's friend in the forest, this can be a problem if this happens because it will seem like you searched the whole area and didn't find anything. You can also take advantage of this and pass some of the action scenes late in the game.
At least those flying statue head thingies which take away your points still give you some points when you defeat them. An enemy which I find more annoying are those orange things that look kind of like a mutant pig or something with a knife sticking out of their chest, found in the first temple and other areas. They take away your points too but you don't get any for defeating them, and they usually spawn to infinity as well!
It's funny what you said about how the music has a lot of vibrato. There was always something about this game's music which seemed strange to me but I could never quite figure out what it was, and now I know. It's interesting though, the sound of the game seemed a little different than what I recall and this prompted me to stop being lazy and bust out the original NES. As strange as it may seem, that vibrato effect is actually slightly less prominent in the original NES version of the game... there is definitely a difference in sound quality between the two! This makes me wonder if the VC version is different as well...
Your mention of the NES game Totally Rad reminded me that I used to own that game, I had completely forgotten about it. I can't really recall anything about the game though, and sadly it was stolen long ago... but I'm about to go order it off of eBay. Gotta spark that childhood memory.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: Sundoulos on June 08, 2009, 10:48:30 AM
I finally finshed this game yesterday, after dying a number of times. Whew!
In case no one was aware, if you die at the last temple and choose to continue, the game will start you at the beginning of the temple with three lives. This means that you don't have to repeat that long trek through the boulder-tossing Lizalfos or those lava sections again. If you're playing it on the VC and have to put the game down, I'd just advise continuing and using the Wii home button rather than saving and starting the journey over from the North Palace. I guess some might consider that cheating; I just see it as a way to avoid some unnecessary pain!
There is one thing that I realized that I missed in this game, specifically the visual and audio cues that are present in nearly every other Zelda title. Zelda 2 almost gives you no help in finding your way through temples. This game has nearly no visual cues whatsover for secret rooms, hidden holes, or map tiles; even the audio cues for discovering secrets is sparse and is limited to the overworld.
The trek through the final palace/temple is absurdly hard, at least by today's standards. I had forgotten that you had to break a block in the floor just to find a hidden hold in the floor. Oddly enough, I think playing the original Metroid when I was younger originally helped prepare me for this game moreso than the original Zelda did; otherwise, trying to find hidden passages or holes would probably never have occurred to me.
Someone mentioned this upthread, but the number of new enemies in the final palace is impressive. I've always dreaded those Bird Knights in the last temple! They're not impossible (the upward stab is your friend), but it bad to run into them when you're trying to conserve magic. I think on my last attempt on the temple I tried to avoid combat with the blue Bird Knights whenever possible.
Also, I've always thought that the penultimate boss, Thunderbird, was generic-looking and uglier than sin. Very un-Zelda in design, really.
I mentoned upthread that, originally, it was a little disappointing to me that the final boss didn't turn out to be Ganon. This, of course, was before all the other Zelda games with Ganon as the final boss were made. :) Shadow Link does make sense for the theme of the game, though, as Link is trying to purge himself of evil and prove himself worthy of the Triforce of Coruage. I remember being thrilled to see Shadow Link's return in OoT as a mini-boss, but, if I remember correctly, he was tough as nails in that game as well.
It's also worth noting that Zelda 2 is the only game I know of where Link and Zelda actually (presumably) kiss at the end of the game. Zelda's end-game sprite also makes her look as if she has severe back pain.
Thanks a Million for reading!
************************************************************* Edit: Since the vebrato music was mentioned on the podcast, I thought I would share this. The music on the Famicom version of Zelda 2 (at least on the title screen) was better I think: FAmicom Zelda 2 intro (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePmJyWhQb3o&feature=related) NES Zelda 2 intro (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oufgG46D_48&feature=related)
Here is another video I found that highlights small differences between the Famicom and NES versions of the game: Zelda 2 - Famicom Vs NES Differences (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWagcUQtUWI&feature=related)
Famicom verison contains some sounds that the NES version does not (e.g. Horsehead's breathing)
Stabbing an item or an object is necessary for pickup in the Famicom version - see how Link has to stab the child in the Famicom version in order to save him
Tektites can be damaged with the normal sword in the Famicom version; the NES version requires the use of the Fire spell
Gooma, the boss of the 5th temple, is not in the Famicom version; instead the player fights a second incarnation of Helmethead (the first temple boss)
Barba, the boss of the 6th temple, is more animated in the NES version; the Famicom version seems harder to hit. Incidentally, he is called Volvagia in the Famicom manual...sound familiar?
Leveling is handled differently in the Famicom version; all attribute upgrades cost the same.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: mjafyx on June 17, 2009, 11:26:09 AM
The four sword adventure on GC had very good side scrolling section. A wiiware version would be very nice.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on June 17, 2009, 09:58:18 PM
Yeah, I remember that one tower dungeon being pretty cool in Four Swords Adventures.
Title: Re: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link
Post by: adadad on June 19, 2009, 09:43:50 PM
Just listened to the latest podcast, pretty interesting discussion of the game. Inspired me to play it today and I was surprised yet again by how good the core combat mechanics feel. It's satisfying. I'm willing to put aside the fact that I just lost all my lives and got sent all the way back home for that reason. Roll on the next Retroactive!
