NWR Interactive => Podcast Discussion => Topic started by: Yoshidious on March 28, 2009, 11:52:32 AM
Title: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: Yoshidious on March 28, 2009, 11:52:32 AM
This is the thread to discuss our fourth RetroActive feature title, Secret of Mana, the 1993 Super NES Action-RPG by Square.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: vudu on March 28, 2009, 12:02:00 PM
Well, so much for that idea (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=27408.msg499059#msg499059).
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: yoshi1001 on March 28, 2009, 12:28:24 PM
I tried this out a few days ago. Did anyone else experience a graphical glitch where you couldn't see where the rocks were properly when fighting the plant boss in the dwarf village?
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: Mop it up on March 28, 2009, 04:19:34 PM
When I first saw this topic for some reason I read it as "Secret of Man". Now that would have been an interesting game...
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: Stratos on March 29, 2009, 03:32:40 AM
When I first saw this topic for some reason I read it as "Secret of Man". Now that would have been an interesting game...
It could be the next Cho Aniki game. Cho Aniki: The Secret of MAN-BEAM.
The AI is torquing me of a lot. I'm at a point where I need to convince my sister to play along or else it is near impossible to get to this one dungeon without loosing the other two characters. I don't like wasting my revives like that. I need to find some friends who will play this with me. I wish I could get some fellow NWR members to come play with me. If only it had online.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: yoshi1001 on March 29, 2009, 09:36:55 AM
One problem I have is that I keep forgetting you can't throw the boomerang diagonally. Also, it would be nice if the other characters didn't come in at level 1.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on March 29, 2009, 12:04:47 PM
vudu would try anything to avoid hearing about Secret of Mana.
I'm still early in the quest; tried starting this back in the fall, but my save file of the first couple hours was lost during a Wii repair. Aesthetically, it reminds me a lot of Chrono Trigger, which is a new observation despite having played both back in the 90s. The music is absolutely gorgeous.
Was anyone else a bit surprised in the intro when the main hero talks? It's not unusual for a Square game, but as a Nintendo fan, this always catches me off guard.
I was initially annoyed by having to wait between attacks for my strength to recharge. Then I realized how it makes the game feel much more like an RPG. Plus, it informs your strategy quite a lot, as you need to retreat and dodge while the percentage refills. Without that element of pacing, the combat would be more like that of the Ys series -- spastic and not RPG-like at all. The 2D Zelda games seem to avoid offensive spamming by nature of enemy placement, knockback distance, and movement patterns. I guess there are a lot of different approaches you can take to this kind of combat.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: vudu on March 29, 2009, 02:35:08 PM
vudu would try anything to avoid hearing about Secret of Mana.
It's not that I dislike the game. It's just that it came out on VC five months ago and everybody on the Internet was discussing it. Forgive me for being cynical, but I just don't think anyone on RFN is going to have anything to say about the game that hasn't already been discussed at great length.
This is the thread to discuss our fourth RetroActive feature title, Secret of Mana, the 1993 Super NES Action-RPG by Square.
Oh right. Back to the point of this thread ...
I have played Secret of Mana twice--once when it originally was released in in 1993 and again when it came out on the Virtual Console in October. Both times I played it solo, which by all accounts is the wrong way to play it. While I enjoy the game enough to have played through it twice in its entirety it has a good deal of problems, especially as a single-player game.
Leveling up all eight weapons for each of the three characters is a chore. Attempting to max out all eight Elementals for both the Girl and the Sprite borders on insanity. The game is a grind-fest throughout, and unlike most RPGs grinding doesn't necessarily help you because the game mechanics aren't based solely on stats. With enough skill, patience and luck you can get through almost any battle.
I enjoy exploring the world of Mana; unfortunately, there is almost never a good reason to do so. Most towns are desolate places with no reason to visit except to visit the shop or recharge at the inn. Once you purchase the new equipment there's certainly no reason to ever visit again. Dungeons are even worse--the branching hallways that lead to nothing but dead ends leave me feeling unsatisfied. (And yet I can't NOT explore each one for fear that "maybe just this once there will be a treasure chest at the end...".)
Combat is a buggy mess, and I would never bother charging my attack past level 4 because more often than not the attack would miss even if I appeared to hit the enemy right between the eyes. My computer controlled companions were generally worthless. They would get stuck on winding roads and staircases so often it was laughable. And while I never experienced the problem myself, I have often heard about game-breaking glitches that would cause the Sprite to disappear from the party, forcing you to finish the game without him.
While playing it on the Virtual Console last year I came across a bug that nearly caused me to have to replay the entire Mana Fortress (which would have taken well over an hour). During the final boss fight, my opponent got stuck in an endless loop where he circled the screen continuously. After 20 minutes he eventually snapped out of it and returned to his normal attack pattern.
And yet for all its problems, I can't help but really like the game. It's bright and colorful. The character and enemy design is unlike anything else. And once you have Flammie at your disposal you realize just how large the world is and how much is out there to explore (even if it's totally not worth it). It's a shame that Square-Enix seems to have given up on the series, because I would really like to see a sequel on DS that fixes all the flaws of the original game.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on March 29, 2009, 09:46:26 PM
You mention that leveling up all the weapons and elementals is a major chore... but isn't that really an optional side-quest? Do you really need to have each character at level 8 on the brass knuckles to beat the game? I know some weapons have special uses (non-combat stuff like cutting grass and whipping across a chasm), but couldn't you generally just leave each character with his or her own weapon? Likewise with the magic, it seems like some elementals are more useful than others, and you really just need to level up those you use most often.
Btw, these are serious questions -- I'm not trying to sound defensive. I honestly don't remember enough about the later parts of the game to know if you need to be THAT well-rounded.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 29, 2009, 10:01:58 PM
Well I recently downloaded Secret of Mana and played it, can't say I was horribly impressed. It may be because I heard it was similar to Zelda, in addition to the fact I have no one to play multiplayer with. What really turned me off to the game was the first "boss" battle (the one you can never die in), mainly because I was trying to play it like an action RPG and tried to hide from the enemies boomerang claw behind a wall, but no matter where I went it found me. From then on I couldn't really get into it, I kind of wish it went all the way, either completely to action RPG or more to turn based RPG. It almost seems like it has an identity problem.
Quote
It's not that I dislike the game. It's just that it came out on VC five months ago and everybody on the Internet was discussing it. Forgive me for being cynical, but I just don't think anyone on RFN is going to have anything to say about the game that hasn't already been discussed at great length.
Everyone on the internet ehhe? RFN has barely mentioned it and I don't recall much discussion about it here. Retroactive is supposed to be a revisiting (or in some cases a fresh visit) of older games and analyzing how they hold up, it isn't supposed to be soley "find the title no one has played". Or "What games vudu wants to talk about". The overwhelming voting win shows people still want to discuss it here. So quite a few people here outside of the planet vudu actually wants it to be discussed, including myself! ;)
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: vudu on March 30, 2009, 01:49:06 PM
Btw, these are serious questions -- I'm not trying to sound defensive. I honestly don't remember enough about the later parts of the game to know if you need to be THAT well-rounded.
There's absolutely no reason to charge up all the weapons. I think the only thing that you really want to do is make sure the Hero is fully leveled up on the sword by the end of the game.
The only reason I do it is because that's just the type of gamer I am (borderline OCD). :) It's the same reason people will level up their characters to 99 in Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy. (Although, to be honest, I only leveled up 6 or so weapons for each character to level 8 for my most recent play through.
The same goes for magic, too, although there is a some benefit to leveling up the Elementals because most bosses are weak against only one particular Elemental and they can be a real pain to beat if your magic levels aren't up to snuff. (And the brain-dead computer controlled players don't make it any easier.) You also NEED to have the Girl's heal magic leveled up ASAP, which requires abusing the system by spell-casting repeatedly outside of a hotel.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 30, 2009, 02:56:46 PM
Everyone on the internet ehhe? RFN has barely mentioned it and I don't recall much discussion about it here.
Someone (I think Greg), has talked about Onlsaught quite alot. I agree that it shouldn't be eligible for RetroActive since it's a new game. Any game that has come out for Wii or DS isn't "retro" and shouldn't even be considered for RetroActive.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 30, 2009, 03:06:15 PM
Everyone on the internet ehhe? RFN has barely mentioned it and I don't recall much discussion about it here.
Someone (I think Greg), has talked about Onlsaught quite alot. I agree that it shouldn't be eligible for RetroActive since it's a new game. Any game that has come out for Wii or DS isn't "retro" and shouldn't even be considered for RetroActive.
I was referring to Secret of Mana.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: Stratos on March 30, 2009, 03:10:24 PM
Everyone on the internet ehhe? RFN has barely mentioned it and I don't recall much discussion about it here.
Someone (I think Greg), has talked about Onlsaught quite alot. I agree that it shouldn't be eligible for RetroActive since it's a new game. Any game that has come out for Wii or DS isn't "retro" and shouldn't even be considered for RetroActive.
RetoActive isn't just about old games. Link's Crossbow Training is newer.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on March 30, 2009, 05:37:03 PM
Okay... back to Secret of Mana. Please.
I can see how this kind of game, and most RPGs for that matter, might be annoying to an OCD player. There's a lot of optional crap, much of it with little payoff. I do remember being very excited to find an extra weapon orb for the spear, when I played it back in the 90s. If you grind at the Mana Fortress for a while and get lucky, you can find orbs in random enemy drops that let you upgrade weapons to Level 9 (and maybe even higher).
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 30, 2009, 06:50:23 PM
Is Secret of Mana considered the best mana game?
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on March 30, 2009, 07:04:49 PM
I do remember being very excited to find an extra weapon orb for the spear, when I played it back in the 90s. If you grind at the Mana Fortress for a while and get lucky, you can find orbs in random enemy drops that let you upgrade weapons to Level 9 (and maybe even higher).
I remember getting an orb that way when I first played it. I was under the impression that that was the only way to get all the weapons up to the maximum level since the story hadn't led me to enough orbs otherwise.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: NovaQ on March 30, 2009, 11:25:50 PM
I've had to pause my progress because my friend was away on spring break. At this point, we've gone through the crrrazy forest and will soon be on our way to the desert. Some thoughts:
Like has already been said, this game is real aurally and visually purty.
The game doesn't seem as tough now as it once did. The friend I'm playing with now is as prone to tangents as I am (which is very). We've been doing plenty of accidental grinding (some intentional), and the game's bosses have been surprisingly easy so far. Leveling up our magic is playing a big part in this, and all of our gold makes new armor always within reach.
I really enjoy the refill gauge between attacks. When you work the timing right between two or all three characters' attacks, it's amazing how completely you can destroy regular enemies. So satisfying.
Even with the AI tweaking you can do, this game must be played with at least one other competent person to be fully enjoyed. The computer just isn't smart enough (and it's not as much fun to talk with, either).
Leveling up all weapons and magic is not advisable. I like to have each character have two weapons s/he focuses on: one ranged, one up-close. And spamming magic attacks outside of the towns gives you much more experience.
The camera bugs me sometimes. My character has to be so close to the edge of the screen to make it scroll that I worry I'll bump into some random enemy (which has happened once or twice so far). It makes sense why the camera was designed this way, as all the players need space to operate on-screen. Still, a minor gripe.
The hit detection does seem weird, like vudu mentioned. At first I thought it was crappy programming, but (and this might just be me) I've noticed that some enemies avoid point-blank attacks more frequently than others. Considering that the heroes begin to auto-dodge as their stats increase, the nutty hit detection may just be from some characters having higher evasion.
More such-and-such as I resume playing!
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on April 01, 2009, 05:57:18 PM
Agility/evasion definitely factors into whether your attacks connect. I think that element can be hard to appreciate since the hit detection is definitely wonky -- when you miss an enemy, you're not sure if it's statistical or just sloppy programming. Of course, magic doesn't depend on proximity or line of sight, so you can use that on enemies that are too fast to hit with physical attacks.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on April 03, 2009, 11:05:37 PM
I just learned something that take some frustration out of the AI. You can call the other characters to you by pressing the run button. It works really well if they are attacking an enemy you would rather avoid. I don't know yet if it helps when they get stuck on objects.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: CoolBumpty on April 06, 2009, 04:35:24 AM
Secret of Mana has been one of my favorite games. I've just completed the game for the third time. I did it with two friends who hadn't played it before, and started playing through it with them almost a year ago on the SNES with the multi-tap. Since I didn't want my friends to get bogged down with the grinding while they were over, I ended up spending hours leveling up to the point where sometimes the game was stupidly easy. For me, though, I felt that it was a lot harder to have two partners than to play it on my own since I know what spells to cast at what point, and when it makes sense to just run by the enemies.
There are a lot of things I don't like about the game, like the lack of storyline between the first hour and the second to the last dungeon(though the ending story is a bit out there), or the lack of direction after you get your world traveling vehicle, or having your AI characters glitch through an area and get stuck, forcing you to reset. I also feel like the first 5 hours or so are the best, and that the magic system and small distance characters are able to travel from one another makes the game much better for two players than three. But I really do like the cannon travel, the charged up weapon attacks, the dancing merchants, the treasure chest shaking (with poison spikes or bombs hitting you 90% of the time), and the barrel item, just to name a few things.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on April 06, 2009, 02:26:29 PM
What does the barrel do? I bought one from Neko but haven't used it, because it's expensive and the game doesn't give descriptions for anything.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: vudu on April 06, 2009, 02:36:34 PM
The barrel will give one of your characters temporary invincibility but they won't be able to attack while wearing it. I've never actually used one so I don't know if it ends after a certain amount of time and/or damage is inflected or if you simply wear it until you take it off.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: Stratos on April 07, 2009, 04:32:43 AM
In response to the crew's reading of my Secret of Mana post, it was the first dungeon after you get the magic I think. You needed the Sprite alive at the end as well which is why I was especially frustrated with the AI getting itself killed.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on April 07, 2009, 04:12:52 PM
Oh, the dungeon where you get Gnome magic. Well, you could let Sprite die early and then leave him dead until right before the boss. Then you'll only need one Cup of Wishes.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: Stratos on April 07, 2009, 04:40:06 PM
Oh, the dungeon where you get Gnome magic. Well, you could let Sprite die early and then leave him dead until right before the boss. Then you'll only need one Cup of Wishes.
I've thought about doing that but I first need to get re-motivated to play the game once more. Listening to the 'cast last night almost did, but I turned on my system to discover my WiiMote batteries are nearly dead. I want to at least try to finish the game before you record the next episode.
I didn't know all that about the game originally being planned for the ill fated Sony-Nintendo SNES CD add-on. Most interesting.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: vudu on April 07, 2009, 04:44:07 PM
I didn't know all that about the game originally being planned for the ill fated Sony-Nintendo SNES CD add-on. Most interesting.
Didn't you listen to episode 23 of Retronauts, like I told you to do (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=27583.msg495305#msg495305)? >:(
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: Stratos on April 07, 2009, 04:59:12 PM
I didn't know all that about the game originally being planned for the ill fated Sony-Nintendo SNES CD add-on. Most interesting.
Didn't you listen to episode 23 of Retronauts, like I told you to do (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=27583.msg495305#msg495305)? >:(
Whoops. I forget you even mentioned that.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: SkiDragon on April 07, 2009, 09:42:15 PM
The main reason I sometimes consider this to be my favorite game is because of the multiplayer. I can think of no other game that really shares this formula. Crystal Chronicles was mentioned as a spiritual sequel of sorts but the small amount of time I spent with that game did not make me yearn for more, and the hardware restrictions ensured that I would play it no more even if I wanted to.
Of course, nowadays nobody would have both the time and will to play through any significant chunk of the game with me. Since I know the game is not nearly as good as a single player experience, I am not dedicating any time to it at the moment.
The soundtrack is still one of my favorite, but in retrospect I agree with a lot of the complaints. The dialogue is pretty poor, and the story suffers as a result. The path finding is terrible. I once remember getting stuck after rounding a corner and jumping down a ledge. One of my characters didn't make it around the corner, and I couldn't go back to get him. Unfortunately, he was a ghost and I was out of reviving capabilities, so I couldn't switch to him either. I don't recall if I had to reset or if I was able to fling myself back up the ledge with one of the charged weapon attacks. Either way it was annoying.
Somebody mentioned the similar graphical style to Chrono Trigger. I actually bought Chrono Trigger under the assumption that it would have similar gameplay, because the screenshots of Chrono Trigger looked similar. I was initially disappointed, but not for too long...
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: NovaQ on April 08, 2009, 12:06:53 AM
In the podcast (140), someone mentioned that it takes a very particular partner to really enjoy playing this game with. I agree, and I'm lucky that the friend I'm playing with is just the right person. We both really enjoy exploring the overworld and dungeons to gain experience and money.
If you're the type of person who gets excited watching a progress bar fill, and you can find a friend with a similar affliction, SoM's basic grinding goodness is for you.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: Stratos on April 08, 2009, 04:42:58 AM
Can you share this friend with me Nova? I'm fresh out of willing gamer friends. ;)
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: NovaQ on April 08, 2009, 07:35:01 AM
I'll see what I can do.
If you get a really big box with air holes in it in the next week or so, for the love of God, don't use a knife to open it!
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on April 08, 2009, 01:03:05 PM
Thanks to everyone for your comments. We're recording a day early this week due to schedule conflicts, so the SoM wrap-up may be a bit abrupt. I for one plan to keep playing it, because it's getting more addictive as I get deeper.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: Stratos on April 08, 2009, 06:52:00 PM
I'll finish the game once NovaQ's friend arrives in the post. You did remember to leave food and water in the box right?
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: NovaQ on April 08, 2009, 09:44:34 PM
...
You may not want to sign for that package when it shows up.
Title: Re: RFN RetroActive Discussion - Game #4: Secret of Mana
Post by: Stratos on April 08, 2009, 11:14:55 PM
Thanks to everyone for your comments. We're recording a day early this week due to schedule conflicts, so the SoM wrap-up may be a bit abrupt. I for one plan to keep playing it, because it's getting more addictive as I get deeper.
Does this mean the 'cast will be up Saturday instead of Sunday? Will there be hidden Easter Eggs in the podcast considering it's...yeah, that would be kind of cheesy.
