Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: EasyCure on March 24, 2009, 10:12:26 PM
Title: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: EasyCure on March 24, 2009, 10:12:26 PM
The Intro I had the strangest dream last night about some sorta vampire movie, and the climax ended up being some giant action scene with all those cool slo-mo action moves mixed into fast paced sequences that look bad-ass. Oh, and just like those crazy action movies the story made no sense either but thats not really the point of this post/thread.
When i woke up from the dream i thought to myself "that was so silly and random, yet so full of action that it might make a fun action game," only to then think "eh.. maybe i just have MadWorld on the brain cuz it'd be just another brawler."
Don't get me wrong though; MadWorld and No More Heroes are both fantastic brawlers on Wii but the last thing we need is for the genre to be oversaturated the way the On-rail shooter genre is, or at least the stigma they have. If brawlers/beat-em-ups/hack-em-ups became the norm on Wii then the only way one would be succesful would be to introduce some new gameplay mechanic to really make it stand out from the rest. Thats when it hit me; Something so seemingly simple that would ONLY work on Wii.
The Idea So here's my "what if" and tell me if its been done before, cuz to be honest i'm only using the two most recent brawlers I've played [on Wii] (NMH + Madworld) as games to compare my idea to.
What if you had a 3d brawler that took a cue from both those afformentioned games and improved upon the motion based controls that had you executing gesture based moves, as well as your opponents. My idea is to introduce the Wii remotes IR pointer into the mix, and come to think of it, steal the "Focus" move from Red Steel. For those that don't remember or never experienced "Focus" move, its one that allows you to slow the game down, freezing it actually, while you point your Wiimote cursor and click on your enemy/enemies (up to 5 times i believe) making you lock your shots in before you run out of Focus. This let you disable enemies by locking onto their weapons, or perform consecutive headshots. The problem with Red Steel was that its shooting-range style of gameplay had enemies usually pretty far from you, so unless your aim was perfect locking onto such small targets could be annoying.
Now obviously i'm talking about introducing this into a different genre but i feel like it might still work. Picture a 3d brawler with a similar focus move, where the camera zooms in slightly to your character and you have up to 5 seconds to point/click anywhere on an enemies body so when your focus time runs out, you'll see yourself perform a cool lil combo.
There are problems with this in a brawler however. Obviously it'd be boring if when performing these focus moves if you couldn't be interupted, so instead of going the Red Steel route and simply freezing the action in place, you just slow it down. That way you can see your enemy mid-attack and act accordingly. Thats where we take things up a notch: instead of just being able to attack, you can perform blocks and counters as well. Punches, Kicks, and Blocks would all be assigned on to differnt buttons and any could be used during the focus move. Hell why not add grab throws in there? To further the action, and make the game feel more like a game and not like you're watching the best action scenes of a movie, you could include more than just pointing and perform other motion controls. I'm picturing a weird mix of Red Steel and.. Elite Beat Agents. Yeah, you read that right.
Picture this scenario if you can: You start your focus move, the screen goes dark similar to Travis Touchdowns Darkside attacks, maybe stylize it all a bit, include motion blur and make the enemies colors brither and more intense (makes it easier to see where you're pointing). You see an enemy mid-punch. You click on his arm with the grab button, hold it and drag it away, then click on one of his legs, hold the button and drag it over to his other leg and click. Your focus time runs out and the action takes place. The enemy throws his punch but your character grabs his arm, and sweeps his legs out from under him, when he's down you can choose to finish him off similar to MadWorld, where depending on the button you press a different finisher is performed. Hell why not even throw some waggle in there for fun!
I can see alot of people thinking that this sort of focus move in a brawler would be limited to attack on one enemy at a time but it wouldn't have to be. Like Red Steel you'd be able to focus-click anywhere on screen, so you coul easily pull off hits on enemies all around you, as long as they're close enough. With my EBA inspired dragging move you could have your character grab one enemy, and throw him into another, or perform something like a round house kick if you clicked on one guys head, and dragged it over to another close characters head.
The Summary Personaly i feel like there'd be enough there to keep the game from getting boring but is it enough? Would the Wii even be able to process something like this? All the guess work involved in animating such attacks? I feel like with this type of mechanic, the game would be able to immitate those crazy action sequences you see in movies like Jackie Chan flicks, or those Transporter movies, the kinda stuff that games never really replicate outside of cutscenes. My idea would make you feel apart of the action but who knows, maybe in theory its good but in practice it'd be tedious and boring. What do you guys think?
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: ShyGuy on March 25, 2009, 01:57:24 AM
Is this the beta signup?
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 25, 2009, 03:04:52 AM
I would play it.
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: KDR_11k on March 25, 2009, 04:16:41 AM
You focus a lot on one special move mechanic, what about the rest of the time?
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: EasyCure on March 25, 2009, 10:15:47 PM
You focus a lot on one special move mechanic, what about the rest of the time?
its a beat-em up ;)
i just figure with such a mechanic you could turn a what some might consider a repetitive brawler, into something a lil more skill-based as well as add extra flash (something for everyone!). Besides, i titled this a gameplay idea not a game idea. I feel like such an idea would only be possible on Wii, as well as add a "next gen" element to such an old genre.
Ha i wish, if i had the knowhow and talent to develop some sort of demo to show of exactly what i see in my head, i'd love to get feedback from NWR.
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: vudu on March 26, 2009, 02:59:55 PM
I haven't read past the first sentence (yet) but I have to point this out.
"I had the strangest dream last night about some sorta vampire movie, and the climax ended up being some giant action scene with all those cool slo-mo action moves mixed into fast paced sequences that look bad-ass."
I'm sure there's an obvious joke in there if I wasn't so lazy.
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: EasyCure on March 26, 2009, 03:54:11 PM
I haven't read past the first sentence (yet) but I have to point this out.
"I had the strangest dream last night about some sorta vampire movie, and the climax ended up being some giant action scene with all those cool slo-mo action moves mixed into fast paced sequences that look bad-ass."
I'm sure there's an obvious joke in there if I wasn't so lazy.
You're obsessed with me and vampire sex, WE GET IT. Sheeesh.
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: Stogi on March 26, 2009, 06:19:06 PM
I've think everyone has had that type of dream, or has been a part of someone else dream.
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: Ian Sane on March 26, 2009, 07:55:35 PM
All the focusing stuff sounds kind of similar to Viewtiful Joe. But your idea wouldn't be identical to that and most of the best games just creativily tinker with existing ideas. The basic core goal of taking really cool fight scenes from movies and letting the player essentially do that is fantastic. I've wanted to play a game with that kind of feel for years and it's never quite been done. Any idea that attempts it is worthwhile.
My only beef is that I like multiplayer with my brawlers and I question how it can be done with this design.
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: EasyCure on March 26, 2009, 10:10:30 PM
All the focusing stuff sounds kind of similar to Viewtiful Joe. But your idea wouldn't be identical to that and most of the best games just creativily tinker with existing ideas. The basic core goal of taking really cool fight scenes from movies and letting the player essentially do that is fantastic. I've wanted to play a game with that kind of feel for years and it's never quite been done. Any idea that attempts it is worthwhile.
My only beef is that I like multiplayer with my brawlers and I question how it can be done with this design.
finally something worthwhile to respond to! whodathunkit'd be Ian! j/k
Come to think of it, it does sound a lil like Viewtiful Joe, good thing i titled the thread "new(ish) idea" huh? I've always hated how games would show you some cool stuff you'd never be able to do in-game. Remember in Metal Gear Solid, a freakin missle shoots out at snake and he freakin does a backflip off of it? Why can't gamers get to pull sick **** like that off!?!
Other games let you manipulate certain projectiles coming at you, one that comes to mind is Mischief Makers for the N64.. I'm almost certain there was atleast one part of the game th at let you grab missiles in midair and let you fling them back at enemies *shake shake!* With my idea you could do something like.. Focus on the enemy shooting a rocket at you, point and click on the rocket, tap your jump button. Focus ends and you pull a Solid Snake.
The only problem i can see coming from this idea, is that if you don't balance the game out with this mechanic properly, it'd probably feel like the whole thing was one big QTE. The positive of such a mechanic would be that with all your main buttons (punch, kick, jump, grab) being able to execute some crazy maneuver, there'd be near endless combos you could pull off. That just leads to the second problem, what kinda crazy processing power would you need to have the game be able to pull it off? To be able to guess what you're trying to do and animate it accordingly? For instance, focus on an enemy, click his body with grab, hold the button down and drag the cursor over to another enemies weapon (gun), and then animate it as you grabbing one bad guy and using him as a shield to block the other guys shots.
Ian also brings up another good point, such a design wouldn't work with co-op (i'm assuming thats what you meant by multiplayer) without some sort of major tweaking. Off the top of my head i can think of one solution, though it might not be the best idea out there. Make the (at least co-op) game in a fixed view (lol Animal Crossing?) and when one player goes into focus a little window pops up in one corner (say 1p gets top left, 2p bottom right) and shows your focus area (as it would in single player) leaving the rest of the screen for the other player. One con would be that you're now restricting how much space you leave yourself for pointing/locking on to enemies, but two pros are that:
A. It'd feel like an oldskool beat-em up ala TMNT, The Simpsons (arcade), Battletoads, etc (some of my faves)
B. It'd lend itself to some sweet co-op focus moves! lol i dont even wanan begin thinking of some of the corny cool moves you could do then!
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: KDR_11k on March 27, 2009, 05:22:29 AM
The basic core goal of taking really cool fight scenes from movies and letting the player essentially do that is fantastic. I've wanted to play a game with that kind of feel for years and it's never quite been done.
The problem there is that a game is a simulation and movie physics are nonsense. Unless the game somehow forces you into fancy moves (e.g. with canned combos) you're not going to pull off mad stunts, you're going to stab people in the face until they explode. You don't see people pulling action movie stunts in real life because it's stupid and impractical. Games always approximate reality to some degree and it's likely that real approaches will work in games too. Fancy dancy moves are for ballet, not for combat. Running through a hallway while ten mooks empty their machineguns at you only works when they have a MASSIVE accuracy penalty, the bullets are so fast that only their aim decides whether you get hit, not your movement. Cover, on the other hand, makes you a smaller target and means more bullets will miss (unless they're perfectly accurate or explosive). Of course taking cover is not as exciting as sidestepping bullets but bullets are simply too fast to allow for that.
I mean, why would I want to use my focus power on dodging a missile when I can just read the enemy's movements and walk out of the flight path normally?
The "figuring out what you want to do" is less of a processing power issue and more of a design issue. The behaviour has to be consistent so you know what will happen on a given input. If selecting something and hitting jump will usually make you jump on it it'd be stupid if doing the same on a missile would sidestep it rather than going Münchhausen on it. The grab and drag to shield move would have read as "grab the guy and swing him like a weapon at the other guy's gun" to me.
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: EasyCure on March 27, 2009, 08:44:09 AM
killjoy
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 27, 2009, 02:10:45 PM
One other thing with your QTE game is that you can't just click on something and be successful everytime if you make it within the time limit. It needs more Fallout where you always have a percentage of fail and everything is not always gonna work out correctly.
e.g. I go into slow motion mode and the first thing I select is his head. The next thing I put my cursor over is the his left leg, but a percentage marker gives me a percentage of 15% so I click on it. then i click on his right arm which says 20%. Ultimately I expect that combo not to work out all that great and probably get cut short while attempting to go for the leg
but if I started at the head, then I click on the right arm which would then have a percentage of 90% then move to his left leg which now shows 75%, I would think I actually have a pretty good chance at seeing the whole combo completed and effective cost the enemy maximum damage.
You would want to encourage variety, by making repeated and dull combos (e.g. click on the head 4 times or head, arm, head, arm) cause less and less damage the more you do them, but the crazier the combo and more varied it is (e.g hand, knee throat, groin) the more more rewarding the visual and a much higher chance at a critical attack or one combo kill.
You also need a QTE build up bar, where all your regular fighting builds it up, so that you can't just use it whenever you feel like it. Also successfully complete QTE will use less of the meter than a failed one of similar length. When it comes to things like fighting or dodging bullets/ninja stars/throwing knives and you go into your QTE if you don't do it correctly, them QTE should end immediately and your QTE meter is drained according to how many movements you tried to make. If you are successful, it will drain less than if you had failed and even less than that if you completed something really crazy.
As far as multi-player, I don't understand your explanation for the co-op. I don't see how that would solve the problem of the two player not being synced up as one player goes in to QTE and the other player is still real-time. The only way to stay synced up is if (1)the other player also goes into QTE(which could annoy the other player if they weren't ready) or (2)pause the other players action so you could get your close up and pick your movememnts.
1) Double teaming in QTE could lead to some interesting combos, but what if player 2 isn't near an enemy or was trying to accomplish some timing based action? This would annoy the second player, and also mean there would have to be a shared QTE bar that one player could possibly abuse.
2) This constantly makes the one player wait for the other player while they complete their combo. This could really ruin the experience for either player for having to see the other persons "QTE" screen.
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 27, 2009, 03:15:40 PM
It sounds pretty similar to the VATS system from Fallout 3, but I think it could work.
The real question you have to ask yourself is whether or not it would wind up being fun. I've seen many design documents that sound awesome on paper but fail miserably in practice. It's my belief that the majority of them DO fail in practice and any designer who gets 1 out of 5 right the first time should be hailed as a genius.
If I were to hazard a guess, it would be that the gameplay would be initially enjoyable but would get repetitive after not too long. That's not a BAD thing, it just means that you need some way to add variety and spice to the game.
For starters, I want a reward for disarming foes and taking their weapon. Like a guy comes at me with a lead pipe, I grab his arm, punch him in the gut, and suddenly he's not paying so much attention to how hard he's holding onto his pipe. That's when his decreased grip could be represented by a percentage over the pipe.
I like BnM's idea about percentages, except that if you're going to pull them into the game, you need to go to a VATS-style system and allow players to freeze time and take as much as they need, or at least offer them enough that they won't run out very easily. Stopping to compare numbers will take the game in a different direction and may distract from the key focus, that being the raw combat.
Maybe it would just be so that, if I block his arm as he's swinging the pipe, I can punch him once in the face which will addle him, making it easy to yank the pipe from his hands, at which point it's MY pipe now and I can crush X number of skulls with it, or I can use the pointer to aim at an enemy at a distance and fling it straight into his face.
It will be hard to NOT bring some kind of interface cues into the game, which sucks because if you're going for a feeling of raw, unfettered combat, every additional piece of HUD or interface you involve makes the game less immersive.
It would be ideal if it could play like this:
1. Player "engages" an enemy. Game goes into bullet time. The player gets a first-person view of the enemy who is now moving incredibly slowly due to bullet time. The enemy is likely preparing to attack, such as winding up a punch, swinging a pipe, loading a musket, etc. It's up to the player to gauge what's about to happen and react accordingly.
2. Pick your actions. Choose a quick jab to the face, followed by a slug to the gut, finally grabbing his arm and flinging him into another enemy.
3. Watch it happen. Watch as your character will attempt to execute this combo: at this point, you're watching the results and you can push the dodge button to dodge incoming attacks as you expect them to happen, but also, the player MUST have a "bail out" button which disengages them from the encounter completely. If the fight appears to not be going their way because they attempted a combo that didn't work, they must be able to bail out with no penalty other than needing to start the encounter again. You cannot punish players for something they had no idea would work or not (at least not in early levels).
4. Players learn the rhythm of the game. Players will learn to more quickly gauge what kind of enemy they're facing (face armor, special clothing that denotes a particular fighting style, wielding a weapon, etc.) Reward players for speed by making them able to stop certain attacks from happening if they map out their combo and execute it quickly and efficiently, thus rewarding experience and skill.
5. Add variety. Fight fewer enemies where each enemy is unique instead of hordes of enemies where each is uniform and takes little damage, or maybe have segments of both, requiring players to disable an enemy first (like heatbutting them to stun in Madworld) then use them as a spinning weapon against a surrounding horde of enemies (again, Madworld). Make the boss fights involve figuring out the boss' pattern before really being able to damage them, like hit the knee first, then chest, then face, in that order, make it hard to avoid taking no damage from a failed encounter with the boss, but not impossible.
EDIT: 6. Waggle sucks. It only works in very certain instances that are few and far between. Most times, it fails completely as a game mechanic and should be avoided at all costs. Madworld does a pretty good job of keeping the waggle reasonable...until you get to those "shake both controllers until your fucking elbows cramp up" sections that I hate so much. Twisting tends to be fine, but the only game I've REALLY seen make waggle work properly was Godfather Wii, and it only worked because they had you use both the mote+chuk at the same time so they could check to see if what they THINK you want to do is REALLY what you wanted to do. Cursor use and tilt sensing are fine (provided you never have the player perform either one too quickly). It's gesture controls that seem horribly unreliable in most Wii games.
Honestly, I wouldn't give this project to any team except one with a seasoned veteran game designer at the helm who can decide how the details should drift when they don't all pan out into enjoyable gameplay. There's too much that can go wrong in the little details to risk it on anyone else.
Remember, being a game designer isn't at all about making awesome design documents. It's about how to shift your idea into something playable and fun when your original design document doesn't prove to be enjoyable.
Watch any amount of developer commentary and you'll hear plenty of "At first we tried...", "When we started out, we thought...", "We had to change...", etc. All that matters is that you start with a good core concept and work the details until they become enjoyable.
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 29, 2009, 01:07:44 AM
EDIT: 6. Waggle sucks. It only works in very certain instances that are few and far between. Most times, it fails completely as a game mechanic and should be avoided at all costs. Madworld does a pretty good job of keeping the waggle reasonable...until you get to those "shake both controllers until your ****ing elbows cramp up" sections that I hate so much. Twisting tends to be fine, but the only game I've REALLY seen make waggle work properly was Godfather Wii, and it only worked because they had you use both the mote+chuk at the same time so they could check to see if what they THINK you want to do is REALLY what you wanted to do. Cursor use and tilt sensing are fine (provided you never have the player perform either one too quickly). It's gesture controls that seem horribly unreliable in most Wii games.
What type of waggle are you talking about?
I ask because I've seen games that do one of the following: - It tells you to shake the wiimote to simulate an action (For example, ringing Wiki like a bell in "Zack and Wiki" and simulating playing the drums in "Wii Music")
- Shake the Wiimote like a madman (Onechanbara Zombie Slayers)
In the first option the shaking is kept to a minimum and its used to replicate an action. In the second, however, it is used to replicate button mashing, which in itself is not an idea game mechanic.
Which one of these are you talking about? Or are you talking about ALL waggling in general?
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 29, 2009, 01:13:20 AM
Motion-sensitive waggle doesn't seem to work in most games I've played, like when they tell you to gesture up to do something and gesture down to do something else.
Basically, a gesture that should've been mapped to a button press and does nothing in terms of immersion or adding to the gameplay.
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 29, 2009, 01:15:43 AM
Motion-sensitive waggle doesn't seem to work in most games I've played, like when they tell you to gesture up to do something and gesture down to do something else.
Basically, a gesture that should've been mapped to a button press and does nothing in terms of immersion or adding to the gameplay.
So by your logic all Wii games suck because they all implement at least one type of waggle.
I think you need to define what games are examples where waggling doesn't help at all because in my honest opinion I've played games with waggle and save for my arm tiring its been working fine for me.
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 29, 2009, 01:18:50 AM
No, my logic is that A) I don't like having to shake both controllers as hard as humanly possible and B) motion controls in MANY Wii games are horribly unreliable.
Even in TP, differentiating Link's horizontal and vertical swings very often didn't work.
And yeah, a lot of ports have an action mapped to a gesture because they ran out of buttons.
Godfather Wii is still the champ when it comes to making the motion controls do what they're supposed to do.
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 29, 2009, 01:25:00 AM
No, my logic is that A) I don't like having to shake both controllers as hard as humanly possible and B) motion controls in MANY Wii games are horribly unreliable.
Even in TP, differentiating Link's horizontal and vertical swings very often didn't work.
And yeah, a lot of ports have an action mapped to a gesture because they ran out of buttons.
Godfather Wii is still the champ when it comes to making the motion controls do what they're supposed to do.
I agree that excessive waggling can be tiring and not a good idea to tire the player out. But still seems that you are lumping even the best Wii games with waggle into the same category, especially since in some of them only a thrust of the wiimote or nunchuck is needed to perform the action, and those work really well.
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: IceCold on March 29, 2009, 04:42:59 AM
Quote
Even in TP, differentiating Link's horizontal and vertical swings very often didn't work.
What? You couldn't differentiate them in TP - they basically replaced the B button with a remote swing. You have to use the analogue stick to control whether it's vertical or horizontal.
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 29, 2009, 05:18:45 AM
Even in TP, differentiating Link's horizontal and vertical swings very often didn't work.
What? You couldn't differentiate them in TP - they basically replaced the B button with a remote swing. You have to use the analogue stick to control whether it's vertical or horizontal.
I only played the GC version. But even then, I don't recall any differences in slashing. I just hit the button and Link did the work.
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: KDR_11k on March 29, 2009, 06:52:57 AM
You can hold no direction for regular attacks, sideways for horizontal swipes and forward for thrusts AFAIK though I don't remember that making any difference, all of them are just "slash stuff" and I don't think they reacted differently to enemy counters either. The system dates back to OOT and I'm not sure if the slashes made a difference there, I could imagine it considering combat is MUCH harder in OOT than any other Zelda game.
I agree that excessive waggling can be tiring and not a good idea to tire the player out. But still seems that you are lumping even the best Wii games with waggle into the same category, especially since in some of them only a thrust of the wiimote or nunchuck is needed to perform the action, and those work really well.
Well, in some instances (usually running away from something) the tiring effect may be intended.
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: EasyCure on March 29, 2009, 05:03:48 PM
BnM and S_B, i LOVED your posts.
BnM added some good ideas that made it feel more possible to e in a game, then S_B analyzed it like a game designer which i have to admit, is not something i can do. I merely thought up something cool looking in my head and posed some questions to you guys, like would it even work, would it be fun, etc.
The idea with the percentages is cool, but how about something less distracting then numbers? A quick thought i had is a color coded system; like a colored cursor that shows where you've clicked on an enemy for your attacks, and the more succesful combos show as green, fading into red when the combo will be less succesful.
on the multiplayer issue, let me descrie that a little better using examples from other games. My original idea had a 3d game world like NMH and MW but for multiplayer it would be more like Animal Crossing, for the fixed camera, or for better context just picture something like that Marvel Ultimate Alliance (i think thats the right game..) but with the camera a little more closer to the action. Now before i go on, i know this wouldn't be an ideal fix, to have the game go from a freerange camera to fixed, but again it was just a quick idea and how this concept would work
now, with that visual in your head, the way i see the focus move working would be that when Player 1 uses it, a small window pops up with an even closer view of the action (your character and enemies around him/her) and you'd use that for being able to point and click your enemies. I picture something like in the Four Sword Adventure, if you didn't have a GBA and a character would go inside a house,but obviously not as obtrusive in the middle of the screen. Again, not the most ideal solution, but the quickest thing i could come up with to answer ians point.
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: Stogi on March 30, 2009, 03:51:43 PM
Finally got around to reading your post. I like the idea but I feel it is TOO SLOW because of how many actions you are trying to attach together. BnM has a nice idea as well but it made it even slower. I feel that when it comes to beat em ups, you need a nice collage of adrenaline parts sprinkled with slow motion parts that emphasize the destruction.
Here's what I'm thinking:
First off, I feel one of the greatest beat em ups, Double Dragon, needs to be made in 3d. Kind of a weird first point, but just follow me for a second. Just imagine for a moment what that game would be like in a 3d setting....
What made that game great was that everything required timing and that enemies could hurt each other.
Now imagine this being the control scheme:
D-Pad left: Left punch D-Pad up: right punch D-Pad down: left kick D-Pad right: right kick B: Crouch A: Block/Dodge/Parry (When in focus time it becomes Disarm as well) Z: Grab "-": Jump C: Focus/lock-on (While holding down "C" and using the pointer, you can either focus on a specific point by pressing "A" or simply letting go of "C" with the cursor remaining on the enemy to lock-on) Pointer: would make the "C" button more accurate. Also be used in conjunction with grab to throw enemies and or weapons around. Also it would be used contextually in various elements of the game.
Your idea about tagging various elements and body parts then watching the action unfold is great because you get to plan what happens, but when you plan something it also lacks the feeling of real time and active participation. Now I still included the focus button because it is a good idea, however I feel limiting it to one action would make it more of a weapon in your arsenal rather than your entire offensive strategy. You could even use your color system to add a little more strategy. And honestly it would add even more strategy if it involved timing. For instance, you choose to disarm a man of a baseball bat. You focus on the bat and press disarm. This sets the scenario. While its playing out, you notice the bat go from red towards green. If you time it right, you can successful disarm him and even set yourself to follow up with a combo. If you fail, you don't disarm him and you get a face full of bat. There maybe several times you in one instance that you have to press the button at the exact time in order to complete your initial request.
I feel I need to explain how the camera works before going into an example of how the entire game would work. First off, the camera normally is over the shoulder but higher and farther back than most games. When you press the focus button, it becomes the more conventional over the shoulder. But most importantly, when you finally lock-on to an enemy, depending on their proximity, it will either be over the shoulder (far) or a sideways "brawl" view (close). The closer you get to your enemy, the more the camera starts to switch views. While in "brawl" view, the camera will peer through enemies that surround you. It will only show the enemy you locked-on to and those enemies that plan to attack you from behind in clear view. The camera will basically act like any 3d fighting game; allowing you to strafe around but still always focus on the sides of you and your opponent. And before you ask.....yes, you can only be attacked by other enemies from behind when locked on. You are still, however, responsible for dispatching foes quickly and effectively or else your run the risk of letting other enemies hold you, making you vulnerable, or ultimately getting completely toppled on neo style and losing significant life.
Now this is how it would all work:
Your running down an alley and you get jumped. You see one dude has a knife so you hold "C" and then press "A" to focus on the knife. The camera shifts its focus towards the knife. That's when you press disarm. You watch yourself run up to the guy and as he tries to stab you, you press disarm and break the guy's hand and steal his knife. Holding it with your right hand, you follow up with a right punch that stabs him making him lean over and cry out with pain, that's when you crouch and uppercut him away with a left punch. Now the camera swoops up to its original height. There's still four of them. So you switch to another enemy (holding then letting go of "C"). You hit him with a hard right punch to the gut. You then focus on his head and press grab. It plays out automatically (because of the incapacitated nature of your enemy) and you watch yourself grab his head with both hands, that's when you alternate with your kicks to knee him in the face. You see someone about to attack you from behind, so you (with correct timing) parry away letting the enemy finish the guy off for you. The camera lock-on to this new enemy automatically. That's when you grab him from behind and suplex him. Now there's only two guys left......
Sure it sounds slow, but the fact that you aren't watching yourself most the time and instead dealing out heavy blows makes it seem as if each punch/kick is more powerful.
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: MoronSonOfBoron on March 31, 2009, 05:12:27 AM
Could you do a more detailed outline of that gameplay example? I'm a little confused as to when the player is in Focus or not, and the timing for such actions. It was my impression that at any given point, the player would be able to choose their actions; what I'd like to see is an example for how that part of the system is presented.
Right now it sounds like performing a single action in Focus actually requires TWO actions: choosing a target, and choosing an action. This presents two points where the action must pause for the player to think on their choice. Wouldn't this break the flow of the action?
I think this is a spot where the use of waggle wouldn't be unwarranted. Recalling the wrestling moves from NMH, which were accurately calibrated, I think these motions can be combined with buttons to do a simultaneous action and target selection. An example would be having four arrows radiating from the player character towards different targets (different enemies or different parts of an enemy), and the player would be free to execute a swing in that direction. Combining that motion with a button held down would execute a move specific to that button's normal function.
Example:
I approach an enemy and Focus.
Arrows radiate in each of the four directions, pointing towards potential targets: I can swing the Wiimote up to target the head, left or right for either arm, or down towards the body. These arrows are colored to indicate their potential.
I hold down the "punch" button.
While holding the "punch" button, I swing the Wiimote upwards to target the head.
The game sees I was holding a specific button while making a specific swing motion and executes a specific attack on the specified target: a straight uppercut to the jaw to send the guy packing.
Alternatively, holding the "block/parry" button and swinging for the head would have yielded a throat strike. Similarly, punch + down (punch the body) would be a sucker punch.
I agree that a number of things can and should be presented in the targeting markers used during Focus. The player should be able to make a fast choice without having to preview the results, or be bogged down by a series of slow-motion events. For an individual attack, there can be its chance for success, its damage, and its potential for leading into an extended combo.
Personally, I am very much against the use of the pointer as that relies completely on visual information to guide choices, rather than letting a player "map" the actions in-game to their own motions. I don't want to "read" all these little numbers floating around on screen; I would prefer to see the action and the visual cues and react viscerally to them, almost instinctual.
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 31, 2009, 12:31:50 PM
That could be the difference between the single player Action strategy mode & the more arcadey multi-player mode
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: EasyCure on March 31, 2009, 12:55:40 PM
i feel like i should emphasize part of my first post, these focus events slow the action down, yes, but don't freeze everything entirely like Red Steel did. If you focus and your enemy is throwing a punch, he'll still be throwing the punch and you'll see his fist crawl towards you. That way you can still be attacked in focus, depending on your timing, as to not have it be some uber-move that makes you invincible.
Also, i'm sure i mentioned you could only stay in focus a few seconds at a time, so that your actions within focus, have to be made quickly. Picture the super-shots mini game in Mario Strikers charged, from the goalies perspective. Not counting the "3,2,1" countdown, you only have a few seconds to block up to 5 incoming balls, but in a panic it feels like you have less time. In the focus event you have something like 5 seconds to react, which seems like not enough time but without the panic of not knowing where you have to point on screen (like in strikers) its PLENTY of time to input your commands.
With such a small window, i don't see it breaking the action all that much, especially since once the moves over you'll revert back to realtime (not a cutscene that shows your moves act out) and if your focus combo gets interupted, its back to realtime brawling.
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: MoronSonOfBoron on March 31, 2009, 03:25:47 PM
So here we have another issue: if the cool factor introduced by Focus is so great, why are we limiting its usage? Rather, what reason does the player have to use basic fighting techniques aside from building Focus?
Thing is, for most beat-em-ups, the combos and finishers are "payoff" for responsible "button-mashing", and are in fact extensions of that gameplay. What I want to know is how the Focus combat will parallel the non-Focus combat, because having Focus as the climax to basic mashing is certainly doable (it's been done to an extent), but I feel the ultimate goal would be to have seamless, streaming combat. Can we extend the involvement and freedom presented in Focus into the normal gameplay?
Probably not. As mentioned much earlier in the thread, there's a very low limit to how much waggling one should do, and the Wii-chuk setup is not optimal for the complex button combinations required by the complex fighting system we are imagining here.
I think this would be a good place to use the pointer system previously proposed, actually. Rather than being the mechanic for selecting Focus targets, the pointer can be used for the run-of-the-mill mass combat. I think the primary issues in beat-em-ups, especially one like this, are precise and reliable targeting methods. Assuming a sensibly designed field of vision and number of enemies, the pointer would make a great way to quickly select individual enemies off the screen without:
fumbling through an invisible queue of targets
accidentally losing sight of your other target
muddling use of the control stick with both movement and gestural input
Imagine a scenario where the player is faced with several enemies. In the midst of attacking one enemy, the player wants to switch to another target. Rather than pushing and shoving the control stick or some fickle targeting reticule, he can simply move his pointer to the desired target and immediately begin attacking. This all happens in real time, outside of Focus.
The best part about such an immediacy is that it deals away with my biggest gripe about beat-em-ups: the mooks in the background, the guys who walk around looking stupid while waiting for "their turn". It's a staple of old action movies when fight choreography and cinematography weren't as advanced; it irks me to see this come up in modern video games. It's so prevalent, in fact, that you can do some more-or-less formal research on it. (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3931/intelligent_brawling.php) The main reason beat-em-up games have this setup is because of limited player awareness; I contend that it is not the player's awareness that is limited, it is game design that is unable to account for a human's full scope of awareness and cunning.
With that said, how does non-Focus combat do this with the pointer? As I said, it removes a player's concern about the control scheme, letting them freely select targets as they come into sight. In fact, this pointer-based scheme could deal away with manual movement altogether: given good pathfinding algorithms, a player could chart his path around a group of enemies by point-click-attacking a series of different enemies, bouncing around a mob with intelligent ferocity, rather than leaning in some direction and praying it works. The speed and precision of the pointer allows a player to quickly react to counterattacks, sneak attacks, and opportunities without having to go into Focus mode, which is tailored for more specific situations such as when dealing with a single, constant target or enemy.
Imagine this: the player has five enemies to deal with, A, B, C, D, and E. The Player decides to kill E first, who is covered by the others. Player lays into A, but is approached from behind with a sneak attack by B. A quick point and click, while A is still reeling, sends out a backhand to B. The player decides to leave A alone, because his real target is E, and he wants to get there. In a split-second, the player can point and click to C and D to incapacitate them or push them aside, and finally click on E. The player establishes contact with E, initiates Focus, and before A or B can get back up, E's cervical vertebrae are beyond a chiropractor's help.
From start to finish, there is only attack, attack, attack, never an awkward moment where the player pauses to look around to see who's coming, or to realign their character's facing direction.
A number of martial arts emphasize awareness: at any given moment, an attack can come from any direction, and a fighter is prepared to move, block or counter appropriately. Fighting is a multifaceted affair that goes in all directions, and I think a game about fighting should reflect this.
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 31, 2009, 04:34:03 PM
I think the main thing you are forgetting is that while you do want a certain bit of realism and complexity, you also want to keep the game mechanics rather simple and accessible to even the beginning player. And while I want to be able to do alot of stuff at once I still want the game to be FUN and not a frustrating mess of complex controls and actions.
You have to keep the game playable and more importantly ...FUN. without those two things, you are just getting into some sort of movie fantasy fighting scene simulator.
I think you have good ideas, but they are just a little too advanced to work in a game that is meant to be playable by all level of gamers, beginner to advanced.
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: EasyCure on March 31, 2009, 06:49:58 PM
Who is MoronSonOfBoron?
I feel like he's some dev trying to steal my idea >:[
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on March 31, 2009, 07:09:38 PM
He's just proving he's Kairon's brother. In a good way!
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: EasyCure on March 31, 2009, 07:14:34 PM
He's just proving he's Kairon's brother. In a good way!
Does he /cry?
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: MoronSonOfBoron on March 31, 2009, 09:18:41 PM
Manly tears.
RE: BlackNMild2k1 Given what I outlined in my last post, I have a hard time understanding your reasoning. I proposed pointer functionality over button-mashing in non-Focus combat because it requires less fingerwork; the original ideas put forth by EasyCure make extensive use of pointer functionality to make complex action sequences in-Focus possible, due to its precision and ease of use. I'd like to take that a step further and let the player use more of their attention towards intelligent use of the pointer in all parts of the game.
To reiterate my last post: it's find and dandy that we have a cool new QTE system, but what does this do for the regular game when you're out of Focus? Do you really want to deal with mashing the control stick and buttons while waiting for deliciously intense point-click Focus to come around? Or should fighting between Focus sequences be just as enjoyable and tactical, even parallel that system such that you are primed and ready to take it on when you have to?
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 31, 2009, 10:09:18 PM
I had to go back and re-read your post, but lets start here.
Quote
Imagine a scenario where the player is faced with several enemies. In the midst of attacking one enemy, the player wants to switch to another target. Rather than pushing and shoving the control stick or some fickle targeting reticule, he can simply move his pointer to the desired target and immediately begin attacking. This all happens in real time, outside of Focus.
Why wouldn't you just keep it simple and push the joystick in the direction you want to attack? especially if you are doing a bunch of gestural attacks like you previously suggested?
Quote
In fact, this pointer-based scheme could deal away with manual movement altogether: given good pathfinding algorithms, a player could chart his path around a group of enemies by point-click-attacking a series of different enemies, bouncing around a mob with intelligent ferocity, rather than leaning in some direction and praying it works.
Sounds like you are turning it into a point & click brawler. I'm not sure thats exactly what EasyCure had in mind. That sounds more like a RTS than a heart pounding Brawler/Strategic Fighter
Quote
Imagine this: the player has five enemies to deal with, A, B, C, D, and E. The Player decides to kill E first, who is covered by the others. Player lays into A, but is approached from behind with a sneak attack by B. A quick point and click, while A is still reeling, sends out a backhand to B. The player decides to leave A alone, because his real target is E, and he wants to get there. In a split-second, the player can point and click to C and D to incapacitate them or push them aside, and finally click on E. The player establishes contact with E, initiates Focus, and before A or B can get back up, E's cervical vertebrae are beyond a chiropractor's help.
From start to finish, there is only attack, attack, attack, never an awkward moment where the player pauses to look around to see who's coming, or to realign their character's facing direction.
All of that sounds like an interactive point n click movie. But its all kinda hard to imagine without some sort of visual example to exactly how it would work.
I think between the button & gestural combat moves when out of focus to the pointer centered location based attack while in focus, this gameplay idea doesn't need to try to be overly simplistic(un-motivated) or overly complex(frustrating). What I think we were aiming for was to use all the features of the Wiimote nunchuck combo in a way that won't distract from gameplay(keeping it a brawler) and can only be done on the Wii.
As I said before, you have good ideas, but they just don't fit into the game that EasyCure described as I envision it. Some may agree, some may not and the rest probably don't care, but thats just the way I see it.
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: MoronSonOfBoron on April 01, 2009, 01:28:44 AM
This was my general driving principle in thinking pointer-based melee combat would be a better alternative. If we reserve pointer functionality for Focus, that leaves us with waggle and button-mashing for input in non-Focus situations; respectively, these are tiring and tired mechanisms. In my mind, Focus should not be the focus of the game at the expense of other parts, unless you want the player to spend more time in Focus than out, which was already established earlier as not a good idea. Focus is meant to be a rewarding and enriching experience, a climax that you build towards and even anticipate or formulate strategies around; if it's too common or pervasive, it could become obtrusive to the flow of the game.
I sense you believe that gestures/waggle should not exist outside of the Focus system. I agree with this philosophy, and it is part of why I believe using them in the Focus system would be a wise choice. The Wiimote's swing is a double-edged sword: we must use it, but not too much. It goes without saying that a Wii-exclusive game like the one we're envisioning here will have to use it, and responsibly; it has definite merits in the immersive and emotional payoffs such as those produced in NMH's wrestling moves. On the other hand, we don't want to end up with a "shake like a madman" scenario like the one described by pap64 (or the horrendously confusing and unresponsive setup that was Marvel: Ultimate Alliance).
Focus provides an ideal environment for using waggle: it has a small set of clear and distinct actions that can be mapped to simple executions; it does not take up most of the player's time; it is designed to provide the feeling of immersion and intuition. These are all factors that play to waggle's good side.
On the other hand, I feel that EasyCure's initial idea of using the pointer as part of a brawling game a fascinating idea, particularly because of the freedom, precision, and speed it affords. After suggesting replacing pointer-based Focus with waggle Focus, I felt kind of bad about leaving out the original innovation that sparked this thread and decided I should do something with it.
In any case, when I return, I will try further comparing and combining my ideas with the ones that came before them.
As a parting note, the action sequence I described would probably take place within the span of 5 seconds. (I need to acquire and learn Flash so I can prototype things...)
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: Kairon on April 02, 2009, 02:25:06 AM
My brother's so awesome. ^_^
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: Stogi on April 02, 2009, 09:50:41 AM
no one read my idea and yet this SOB with his massive posts gets read everytime.
And Kryon....you don't read like brothers...is this a hoax?
Title: Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
Post by: EasyCure on April 06, 2009, 09:23:36 AM
no one read my idea and yet this SOB with his massive posts gets read everytime.
And Kryon....you don't read like brothers...is this a hoax?
i keep meaning to read your post but forget to. The time it took me to find this thread and post this lil reply coulda been spent reading your post though...
