Gaming Forums => General Gaming => Topic started by: Flames_of_chaos on December 28, 2008, 07:19:32 PM
Title: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on December 28, 2008, 07:19:32 PM
Source is this thread (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=346601&page=3)
Inafune (Capcom) : -Regarding Resident Evil 5, he says that their experience with Mega Man 9 in parallel turned out to be useful when it came to tackle the online aspect and more particularly to come to grips with the online services/infrastructures. - He would never, ever make a casual game such as Brain Training. - He was right about which hardware would win the systems war, but he never thought the DS would be selling that much. " Sorry (for doubting you), Mr. Nintendo"
Kawazu (Square-Enix) :
- There might be a SaGa related surprise for the 20th anniversary of the series next year.
Yoshizumi (Namco):
- The Tales of Wii battle system has innovations that will, apparently, greatly impress people. "Please look forward to it"
Terada (Super Robot War's producer):
- They might "reposition their development" on the second half of 2009...
Hino (Level 5):
-DQIX is truly entering final preparation stage. About the multiplayer aspect, he mentions that they are making it such as its mechanisms give a unique flavor compared to every Online RPG before. -'Ni no Kuni' is still on track for 2009.
Sugiyama (Koei) :
- Hopes the Wii user will like Sengoku Musou 3 - Was really impressed by Smash Bros Brawl
Kawazu :
- They made the Last Remnant characters with the Western audience in mind - They want to make more turn-based RPGs in the future. - Given the superior technological strength of the West, they wanted to show, with Last Remnant, that they could "do it" too. - " It's a time when you game-lovers must feel concerned"
Nagoshi :
- Before, you wouldn't make software for hardware which wouldn't sell. Things are now different. It's now a matter of fighting so the resources dedicated to the HD consoles wouldn't decrease. - Making titles that actively justify the existence of the high-end consoles is a personal mission - The 'multiplatformization' of the game software has little meaning. Digging further into each platform's characteristics and nature is what is interesting. - He wants to make a new game using his experience with Yakuza/Ryu Ga Gotoku. He is also considering worldwide development, though he is worried about the stance that consists of appealing to the Western audience before the Japanese audience.
Marvelous Entertainment:
- Starting with Little King's Story, they plan to fully support the Wii with a line-up of top-class games. That's their ambition.
Yoshizumi :
- Tales of isn't selling well in the West in comparison to Japan. He wishes American and European would play it more. - For his next project on an HD system, he would want to make it very detailed, with a painting-like style to it.
Terada :
- "Whichever hardware you choose to put your game on, you have to save the results of this choice". -"You really have to support multiplatform gaming and portable gaming, don't you ?"
Yamauchi (Polyphony Digital) :
- With the exception of 17 overseas business trips, and 3 months during which the workplace was empty, the studio was pretty much confined - They would have wanted to get GT5 out in 2009 - As they are exclusively in charge of car games, they want to make a distinctive new title. [not sure if this means a new Racing game IP, or a new IP entirely]
Sugiyama (Koei)
- He believes they put out too many big titles for the PS3 and X360 in 2008, and the market got a bit crowded. For next year, they will limit themselves to 3-4 titles. - More DS titles such as Saihai no Yukue, as these seem fairly popular with DS users. - Sengoku Musou 3 is on Wii because he thought the Wii audience would like it - The PSP Musou Orochi was developed by an oversea studio. - They will continue to cater to the audience that is interested in titles such as Oryori Navi : Marugoto Teikoku Hotel DS, as this audience matches the console. - The first half of 2008 has been record high for the management.
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: ShyGuy on December 29, 2008, 03:34:22 AM
Quote
Before, you wouldn't make software for hardware which wouldn't sell. Things are now different. It's now a matter of fighting so the resources dedicated to the HD consoles wouldn't decrease.
That's the kind of thinking that is leading to studio closures.
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: Bill Aurion on December 29, 2008, 07:24:30 AM
Quote
Inafune (Capcom) :
- He was right about which hardware would win the systems war, but he never thought the DS would be selling that much. " Sorry (for doubting you), Mr. Nintendo"
That's great, now where's OUR new RE game?
Quote
Yoshizumi (Namco):
- The Tales of Wii battle system has innovations that will, apparently, greatly impress people. "Please look forward to it"
Do want...Better be localized...
Quote
Hino (Level 5):
-'Ni no Kuni' is still on track for 2009.
Also want, and I think Nintendo should handle the publishing...
Quote
Kawazu :
- They made the Last Remnant characters with the Western audience in mind - They want to make more turn-based RPGs in the future. - Given the superior technological strength of the West, they wanted to show, with Last Remnant, that they could "do it" too. - " It's a time when you game-lovers must feel concerned"
More like concerned for developers making shitty, unfinished games like Last Remnant...
Quote
Nagoshi :
- Before, you wouldn't make software for hardware which wouldn't sell. Things are now different. It's now a matter of fighting so the resources dedicated to the HD consoles wouldn't decrease. - Making titles that actively justify the existence of the high-end consoles is a personal mission
Yeah, okay, the second quote pretty much confirms the HD bias of his first quote..."Things are now different?" How the hell so?
Quote
Marvelous Entertainment:
- Starting with Little King's Story, they plan to fully support the Wii with a line-up of top-class games. That's their ambition.
Yes, yes, yes! Marvelous is doing a...I will resist the pun...an excellent job providing a unique lineup...I'm looking forward to what they reveal next!
Quote
Yoshizumi :
- Tales of isn't selling well in the West in comparison to Japan. He wishes American and European would play it more. - For his next project on an HD system, he would want to make it very detailed, with a painting-like style to it.
I do too... =( And stop wasting money...
Quote
Yamauchi (Polyphony Digital) :
- With the exception of 17 overseas business trips, and 3 months during which the workplace was empty, the studio was pretty much confined - They would have wanted to get GT5 out in 2009
Ahahaha, business trips...More like vacations...And what's with the "would have wanted"? 2010 confirmed? =|
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: Caliban on December 29, 2008, 11:03:03 AM
IF GT5 has no damage repercussions, visual and simulation, in the game by the time it comes out then it just proves my constant saying on how Polyphony Digital are so full of it.
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: KDR_11k on December 30, 2008, 01:00:58 PM
You can see who's preparing the lifeboat and who's still insisting even God couldn't sink this ship.
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: Ian Sane on December 30, 2008, 02:54:11 PM
A lot of these guys seem to be REALLY against Nintendo's non-gamer focus. They don't want to compromise their games. I admire that. Art before money. I'm sure someone here will quickly point out how stupid that philosophy is but I'm a fan of videogames, not videogame sales.
A while back, as we all scratched our heads trying to figure out why the Wii third party support is so sh!tty when it sells the best, I suggested the idea that maybe some of the better developers were avoiding the Wii because they felt the inferior hardware, imprecise novelty controller and casual focus would compromise their artistic vision. This suggestion was quite quickly laughed at and even I was thinking that maybe that idea was a little too fantastic and gave developers too much credit. Well here we have at least a little bit of an example of that and I'm glad to see it.
I think it's very possible that decades from now Nintendo's casual focus will be seen as a negative thing overall. It's too corporate to be remembered fondly.
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: KDR_11k on December 30, 2008, 03:19:45 PM
Sounds to me more like they're HD whores. Seriously, why the hell would you fight for a format? In the past a format had to fight for itself and you pick whoever is winning, now it seems like they're picking their targets out of pride.
Art over money is why so many companies go bankrupt now, especially since they think like that only for the duration of one decision: "which audience do we go for?". After that they still cut corners and rush crap out like usual because money is valuable and art is a foreign concept to the managers (beyond the degree that's useful for marketing) anyway.
You know what I think? I think they are just talking PR bullshit with their "art" claims, they really are just clueless when it comes to game design for the new customers because there's no beaten path to follow and the people inside the company are in the hardcore mindset, they have no understanding of what makes a new market game good. They're lost and with noone to follow they run away scared. Make no mistake, the developers have no say in the platform decision (in fact I've been surprised about the number of devs who came out and talked about their preferences since in the past the company has never given a damn about how tired the devs are of the PS2's shitty hardware and things like that, grunts aren't supposed to have oppinions, they're supposed to do what they're told). It's the managers that don't know which of their standard patterns to apply to the Wii.
Besides, hardcore games aren't about "art", Gears of War with its "emotional content" is no more art than Tetris. Hardcore "art" is really just egoism, an "art" game is a game designed for the speaker who wants to add more weight to his viewpoint. When people talk about wanting to make "art" they really just want to make a game for their own preferences. "Artistic vision" is a way of saying "what I like". The more people follow their own way, their "art", the fewer people want to play the resulting game.
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: NWR_pap64 on December 30, 2008, 03:26:59 PM
A lot of these guys seem to be REALLY against Nintendo's non-gamer focus. They don't want to compromise their games. I admire that. Art before money. I'm sure someone here will quickly point out how stupid that philosophy is but I'm a fan of videogames, not videogame sales.
A while back, as we all scratched our heads trying to figure out why the Wii third party support is so sh!tty when it sells the best, I suggested the idea that maybe some of the better developers were avoiding the Wii because they felt the inferior hardware, imprecise novelty controller and casual focus would compromise their artistic vision. This suggestion was quite quickly laughed at and even I was thinking that maybe that idea was a little too fantastic and gave developers too much credit. Well here we have at least a little bit of an example of that and I'm glad to see it.
I think it's very possible that decades from now Nintendo's casual focus will be seen as a negative thing overall. It's too corporate to be remembered fondly.
Nintendo isn't forcing ANYONE to make casual games. Yes, Nintendo found success in them, but they also made the wonderful "Galaxy" which shined in its artistic merits (ie music and graphics), which also saw success. The ones going the casual ways are foolish third parties who only see demographics rather than an audience. Its why on the 360 and PS3 side we see a lot of mature FPS games or would be epics because on those consoles.
If they want to make games for Nintendo THEY CAN. The only thing holding them back is pride. You say that they don't want to compromise their artistic visions with weaker hardware, controls and casual appeal. Again, its THEIR choice since NO ONE is forcing them. Suda 51 chose the Wii as the console for "No More Heroes", and it was one of the most artistic, creative and fun endeavors on the system yet. Nintendo didn't tell him to tone it down or compromise his vision. He went ahead and created one of the best games on the system.
Instead of fighting it, they SHOULD make games that prove the Wii is more than a casual machine. And they CAN. Nothing is holding them back except their pride.
In fact, you say that they prefer artistic vision over money. Yet, I am willing to bet ANYTHING that they see more money on the 360 and PS3 than on the Wii because to THEM only casual games sell on the Wii.
Talk about being hypocrites...
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: Urkel on December 30, 2008, 03:30:12 PM
Considering that one flop can wipe out smaller companies these days, I think sales kind of are important now.
Is it worth not compromising your artistic vision if it means it will be the last game your company ever makes? Let's ask Denis Dyack.
Also, so many developers are making games for the DS. Big games including RPGs. Yet I never hear anyone complaining that they're lacking artistic integrity for putting epic games on a portable N64 instead of an HD console. Why is it "selling out" by making games for the Wii but not the DS?
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: NWR_pap64 on December 30, 2008, 03:34:06 PM
Urkel brings out another good point. The DS has a lot of great third party games, all filled with a lot of creativity and rock solid gameplay. And yet, the DS houses those evil Brain games, as well as Nintendogs.
So again, what Ian is saying is nonsense (again, what ISN'T?)
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: Kairon on December 30, 2008, 03:59:07 PM
A lot of these guys seem to be REALLY against Nintendo's non-gamer focus. They don't want to compromise their games. I admire that. Art before money. I'm sure someone here will quickly point out how stupid that philosophy is but I'm a fan of videogames, not videogame sales.
I think it's very possible that decades from now Nintendo's casual focus will be seen as a negative thing overall. It's too corporate to be remembered fondly.
I don't agree with this at all.
But Nintendo does NOT have a casual focus this generation. They have a focus on NEW VALUES. And that is plenty artistic.
This "artistic vision" is not a black and white issue. I fully accept that some developers may see HD textures as necessary to their artistic dreams. I fully commend them for that. I am willing to accept that MGSIV couldn't be realized the way Kojima wanted on the Wii. I am amazed at the opportunities that Little Big Planet affords, and my eyes love the shaky cam from Gears of War.
BUT, it also runs the other way. There are some artistic visions that would be suffocated by the demands of a technically oriented value set. These games are not any less important, and I love them just as much. The Wii and DS have created a different environment with a different value set where such games can come to fruition with less difficulty and more promise. Who's going to make We Cheer on the PS3? Who's going to make Pac Pix on the PSP? And what about my beloved light-gun shooters and point-and-click adventure games? There's a reason that Broken Sword is coming to the Wii and DS, and a reason why House of the Dead: Overkill is a Wii Exclusive. These ARE equally valid artistic visions, and there are enough reasons why an "artist" could choose the Wii over an HD console.
Heck, even look at Wii Music. Why was Mad Maestro okay on the PS2, but the much more fully embodied Wii Music not okay on the Wii? These is a VALID artistic vision. It is NOT about casual versus hardcore, it is about the value set that the Wii offers versus the values that the other consoles claim we should worship.
Add to that the element that art is all well and good, but it's also very expensive, and artistic visions are benefited by the Wii's and DS' economy. Can a smaller publisher like Marvelous even AFFORD to pursue their core games on an expensive technically oriented HD console playing field? Can niche-publisher limited-production-run Atlus? Would Toki Tori have even been able to reach the surface on XBLA or PSN? Would de Blob?
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on December 30, 2008, 04:31:57 PM
Quote
A lot of these guys seem to be REALLY against Nintendo's non-gamer focus. They don't want to compromise their games. I admire that. Art before money. I'm sure someone here will quickly point out how stupid that philosophy is but I'm a fan of videogames, not videogame sales.
I don't admire companies who favor HD visuals over artistic styles. I'm sorry but Madworld, Okami etc are far better visually than most of the "next-gen" graphic games out there. Heaven forbid some of these developers may have to do something other than cram polygons and shiny stuff into their game and utilize a control method that still has TONS of potential.
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: KDR_11k on December 30, 2008, 04:42:08 PM
I think the "art" label is incorrect for a game if it doesn't use the interactivity as a part of the supposed "art" but that's just me. A standard game with pretty graphics or a deep story isn't art IMO, it's a game with art duck-taped to it.
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 30, 2008, 05:16:05 PM
I think the "art" label is incorrect for a game if it doesn't use the interactivity as a part of the supposed "art" but that's just me. A standard game with pretty graphics or a deep story isn't art IMO, it's a game with art duck-taped to it.
Bingo. What better game art is there than the player expressing his or herself thru the game, as opposed being fed the "art"?
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: ShyGuy on December 30, 2008, 05:35:29 PM
Apparently these nubs think they have the inalienable right to huge budgets to make their "art"
The quotes are turning me into Pro. I'll be glad when they fail.
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on December 30, 2008, 05:36:58 PM
I think the burning question we all want to ask. If Ian is so happy with these 3rd party companies wanting HD visuals, why doesn't he get a PS3 or 360 if it is so amazing?
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: KDR_11k on December 30, 2008, 05:43:48 PM
Bingo. What better game art is there than the player expressing his or herself thru the game, as opposed being fed the "art"?
Many people go on and on about how art should have a "message". IMO for a game the wrong way to show a message is through an environment that is affected by that message or even worse, blatantly showing the message off. Don't hand the player something immutable, that tells him "look, I'm right because I created this and have absolute power". Hand him something changeable that exhibits the laws you want to preach about (if you can't implement them without making it look very inconsistent maybe you should rethink your "message") and let the player discover what you mean through interaction. If you want to hand the player a long text (lolbraid) or a great cutscene about your message you should've written a book or filmed a movie instead.
That's not really relevant for this thread though.
I guess Polyphony Digital is cornered, they've got what might be a killer app in the works for the PS3 but Sony needs killer apps NOW, not later. I wonder if they're tempted to rush it?
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: Bill Aurion on December 30, 2008, 05:46:10 PM
A lot of these guys seem to be REALLY against Nintendo's non-gamer focus. They don't want to compromise their games. I admire that. Art before money. I'm sure someone here will quickly point out how stupid that philosophy is but I'm a fan of videogames, not videogame sales.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Oh god, I really needed that laugh...Thanks, Ian!
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: Ian Sane on December 30, 2008, 06:10:25 PM
Quote
Nintendo isn't forcing ANYONE to make casual games.
No but they are changing (or already have) the market so that the non-game reigns supreme. That is what sells, that is what is successful and that means that's what's going to be made. That's what the boss is going to tell you to make. For some developers that type of games they want to make have just become niche. Uh oh. Who's going to fund it? How are these games going to be made?
The videogame industry does not expand genres. They shrink them. If something is popular then everyone is making games like that and something that isn't almost disappears. Point-and-click adventure games have returned on the DS but they were f*cking extinct and still are on the platform that made them popular in the first place. Beat-em-ups are pretty much dead. Shmups are obscure hardcore niche games. 2D gaming in general is being kept alive by the DS. If Nintendo emphasizes 3D on their next portable then 2D would almost completely disappear. The videogame industry seems to make what's hot and almost zilch else.
So if non-games are IT then getting the funding for anything else is going to be much, much harder. And this isn't like other forms of media. I want to make a movie but the studios don't want to make it, f*ck 'em, I can still get a camera and film. I want to make an album but the record companies don't want to make it, f*ck 'em, I can still get out my guitar and record it. Want to write a book then write it. But you can't do that with games. Indie games are like browser crap. Too much work is required to just crank out a game on your own. If you do you end up with some homebrew Atari game. And videogames lack the widespread appeal that music and film have. At least with those there's more attention to demographics. The market is so large that music that appeals to only a small chunk of the audience can still be considered financially worthwhile. With gaming, at least so far, you make what's selling or you make squat.
So on that front anyone wanting to make core games could see the Wii as a threat to that. The more non-games sell the more niche core games become and the videogame market squishes the niche out. There are types of games now that if a major talent wants to make his employer won't allow it because it's not marketable. Inafune says he never wants to make a game like Brain Training but if Capcom tells him to he either has to or he's out of a job. And all this would be because of the market trend Nintendo initiated. From that point of view the Wii seems less like an opportunity and more like a game design ideology that contradicts with your own.
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: EasyCure on December 30, 2008, 08:07:42 PM
I'd agree with Ian if core titles that some consider hardcore (Smash Bros.) didn't sell just as well as 'casual' titles.
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: Kairon on December 30, 2008, 08:10:51 PM
The videogame industry does not expand genres. They shrink them. ... Point-and-click adventure games have returned on the DS but they were f*cking extinct and still are on the platform that made them popular in the first place. ... 2D gaming in general is being kept alive by the DS. ... The videogame industry seems to make what's hot and almost zilch else. ... And videogames lack the widespread appeal that music and film have. At least with those there's more attention to demographics. The market is so large that music that appeals to only a small chunk of the audience can still be considered financially worthwhile. With gaming, at least so far, you make what's selling or you make squat.
All the more reason to approve of what Nintendo is doing. Nintendo didn't kill the point-and-click Ian. It's the traditional gaming industry that is doing all the stuff you point out. Nintendo is the one changing all that. Nintendo has given arcade rail-gun shooters a home, brought point-and-click adventures to a larger venue, and, like you say, is the last best hope for major 2D gaming.
Remember when Nintendo said that it was strange that so many people watched tv, but so few played games? Nintendo is the one trying to broaden and grow the videogame market, just like the music industry that has the widespread appeal (i.e. blue ocean) you say can support different demographics and niches Ian. Viewed from that sense, Nintendo is, well, helping to protect gaming.
And if Inafune wants to make epic titles but his producers won't give him the money? He should ask publisher Marvelous why they are so eager to fund numerous core projects, including the next UBER-NICHE Suda 51 game. If he really needs HD graphics to make the game of his dreams, then I wish him luck. But if the game of his dreams is based on something that doesn't require a large proportion of pixels, then maybe Nintendo has the answer to his problem.
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: Deguello on December 30, 2008, 11:44:04 PM
Quote
- Before, you wouldn't make software for hardware which wouldn't sell. Things are now different. It's now a matter of fighting so the resources dedicated to the HD consoles wouldn't decrease. - Making titles that actively justify the existence of the high-end consoles is a personal mission
These two make my blood boil. What so the 360 and PS3 are ENTITLED to third party support, despite their marketplace performances? All these guys had on their lips last generation was sales, sales, sales. Now suddenly it's about "personal missions" in order to ensure that money stays with HD projects that COULD KILL THEM if they fail?
Could Nintendo have EVER earned these guys' support, EVER? Are Nintendo's third party struggles actually something that is their fault, especially seeing some that would rather die than make Wii games?
The Wii has earned third party support. It even has a few third party games doing better than their 360 counterparts, and that's with them phoning it in (Like Tales, and Guitar Hero). They should be focusing on Wii most, end of discussion.
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: KDR_11k on December 31, 2008, 02:37:45 AM
They aren't CHANGING the market, they're CLAIMING it. These "non-gamers" have always been there, they've just been ignored and only bought the occassional game that happened to appeal to them by pure chance (The Sims, anyone?).
2d is alive on download services now. Of course indie games are low budget, so are indie movies. Or do you have any 100M$ special effects in your movies? You can get your text editor or IDE or whatever and get to work on an indie game, it's always getting easier with tools advancing. Hell, where do you think games like World of Goo came from? People sitting on their ass and whining about not having a few hundred million dollars to spend on their artistic vision?
Quote
And videogames lack the widespread appeal that music and film have.
*facepalm* Weren't you just arguing that it's bad that they're suddently developing widespread appeal?
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: Kairon on December 31, 2008, 03:31:03 AM
Could Nintendo have EVER earned these guys' support, EVER? Are Nintendo's third party struggles actually something that is their fault, especially seeing some that would rather die than make Wii games?
I'm as disappointed as you Deguello, but there's no such thing as 100% anymore, and I really do believe that for awhile the game market will feel a little fragmented. Maybe there's a little anti-Nintendo sentiment going on here, which would make me sad, but I sincerely do believe that a lot of developers are either technologically locked into the HD consoles, or that third party companies are really that inflexible and really can't change directions very well when a market shifts on them.
Also, I truly believe that some developers WOULD actually prefer to work on the 360 and PS3. Is that so hard to believe? Those are decent consoles, after all, with their own unique strengths.
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: KDR_11k on December 31, 2008, 05:51:04 AM
I guess if the third parties are too inflexible to change the only way is to tear them down and rebuild them where they're supposed to be...
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: Ian Sane on December 31, 2008, 12:54:12 PM
Quote
Remember when Nintendo said that it was strange that so many people watched tv, but so few played games? Nintendo is the one trying to broaden and grow the videogame market, just like the music industry that has the widespread appeal (i.e. blue ocean) you say can support different demographics and niches Ian. Viewed from that sense, Nintendo is, well, helping to protect gaming.
Their attempts to grow the market however involve dumbing videogames down, at least from my perspective anyway. While this will increase the market size I'm not so optimistic about it truly providing widespread appeal and supporting different demographics. I figure it will just make 80% of the game market the non-gamer crowd and THAT is what will get focused on. The core gamers that used to have like 90% of all videogames targetted at them will be the niche market struggling to find games that interest them. I think the Wii being this uber console that equally satisfies the old and new markets is a pipe dream. I think this for a couple of reasons:
1. Nintendo's idea of appealing to everyone has always involved making games that everyone can like. They don't make five games that each appeal to one of five people. They'll make five games that all five people COULD like and as a result two of them like it a lot, two of them think it's okay but aren't thrilled with it and one doesn't like it at all. Nintendo doesn't provide variety. They don't understand the concept. This is why Nintendo stuck to family friendly games. Mature games are innappropriate for kids but a cutesy game with good gameplay is technically appropriate for everyone. The fact that 18-25 year old males get tired of playing cutesy games never occured to them or they didn't care. Making something everyone CAN like is good enough to them. That's why they "casualized" Mario Kart. That's why they told us a glorified remake of Animal Crossing was for core gamers. Any past attempts by Nintendo to truly provide variety has always been a token effort. I think they just don't care provided they make a profit.
2. I truly believe that videogames require too much active participation to be truly as mainstream as film or music. Nintendo's solution to this seems to be to decrease the amount of effort or skill required to enjoy a game. But I see this more as making a game-like product. It's not bringing videogames to the masses, it is compromising the very nature of videogames to make them mainstream friendly. To me it's like a completely different product and thus will not benefit the creation of "true" videogames. But because the same companies are involved it will just increase the focus on non-games since the market for them is bigger. The console model with third party licencing is also too restrictive to allow true demographic representation. You can't just waltz in and make a console game. Independent film and music truly allows for demographics in those mediums. Console gaming is like the old studio system.
3. Third parties are not reacting in the way we want them to. Deguello is always pointing out how the Wii third party support SHOULD be better than it is. Him and I, well, rarely see eye-to-eye but I agree with him on that. Last gen and every gen before it it was all about supporting the market leader. But the suits making the decisions interpretted the Wii's success in an entirely different way than we expected. Nintendo got ahead by selling to non-gamers. The publisher doesn't think "hey we can sell [awesome game x] to way more people on the Wii" they think "hey we can just release total worthless shovelware on this console and all these rubes who are new to videogames will buy it because of their ignorance!" And that's what we get. Deg points out that some Wii games are selling better than their 360 counterparts despite being phoned in. Well that's part of the problem isn't it? We see that as a reason to provide your best stuff to the Wii. The suit sees it as an opportunity to make money with less effort. So if you're working for a third party and your awesome PS3/360 game is getting creamed in sales by some throwaway junk title on the Wii. If your boss tells you to start working on the Wii do you think he's going to ask you to make your next GOTY masterpiece on it or some throwaway junk that won't cost much to make and will sell regardless of poor reviews? Does he even NEED you when talent is not a requirement for success.
The Wii really comes across as the shovelware console. If it's the future of gaming does it mean that the Wii is going to get better or shovelware is the future? If you're scared that the Wii's dominance will result in a shovelware future then I can totally understand why you would see the success of the HD consoles as some duty. Some of these guys likely have a delusional view that they have to save gaming by not supporting Casualintendo.
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: Deguello on December 31, 2008, 05:56:27 PM
Other than wondering exactly what you mean by "casualizing Mario Kart," my main point with your post is with your third point, where you seem to have this idea that shovelware actually sells on the Wii. It really doesn't. It may be profitable to make because it is so cheap to make, but it's not like it's topping the charts all the time.
In fact, the top 5 games for the Wii are (Not counting Wii Sports or Wii Play, as one is a pack-in and the other is obviously being bought for the extra controller) Wii Fit, Mario Kart, Smash Bros., Mario Galaxy, Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games. None of these, outside of maybe Olympics due to the re-use of some material, were games that were "phoned in." They all took a long time to make. They are not shovelware. The highest selling "Shovelware" title for the Wii is Carnival Games, at about 2 and a half million, and the highest selling "shovelware" title for the PS2 was The Simpsons: Hit and Run at about 4 and a quarter million. Until a shovelware games reaches that point, I'd say the Wii was free of a supposed shovelware problem.
The reason I want third parties to support Wii, other than the obvious common sense of it all, is because I'd actually like them to stick around and not die because one or two developers wants to waste all their money on one 360 game. Nintendo is literally free to make all the money this generation, and that's going to spell trouble when Nintendo expands greatly and 3rd parties shrink to the point of being easily bought out for peanuts. These guys really need to start thinking "big picture" here.
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: Kairon on December 31, 2008, 06:42:39 PM
Their attempts to grow the market however involve dumbing videogames down, at least from my perspective anyway.
There are people who share that opinion for movies and music too Ian. I mean... it's not that hard to find someone who sneers at the thought of pop-artists, or popcorn movies. But films have survived: my netflix list is chock full of films that are guaranteed to depress me in some way or another. Music has also survived, despite the market expanding to segments that don't listen to traditional hardcore oldschool classical music... anyways, I think the new classical music of today is in movie scores.
Making something everyone CAN like is good enough to them.
I see what you're saying... but seriously, what's wrong with making a game that people can like? I mean, isn't this what Nintendo's been about since absolutely forever? It's certainly nice to have people like Suda 51 who make what he terms "punk" games (games that have distinctively unique styles, I think, by his definition), but Miyamoto has his own artistic vision, and who are you to fault him for that?
And seriously... what makes you think that Animal Crossing is a game that ANYONE can like? It's a game that has a core fanbase of people with VERY SPECIFIC TASTES. I mean, there's absolutely no other game like Animal Crossing out there. It's totally one-of-a-kind, and, if I may say so, extremely niche.
2. I truly believe that videogames require too much active participation to be truly as mainstream as film or music.
Ahh... so then you don't agree with the basic premise behind the Wii at all then? That's a pretty fundamental philosophical disagreement with what Iwata's doing then isn't it?
Nintendo's solution to this seems to be to decrease the amount of effort or skill required to enjoy a game.
Well, I don't have Wii Music yet, but from my recent obsession with reading up and watching videos from the game, it seems like Wii Music may be easy to pick and play, but requires epic amounts of skill and dedication and even practice to master at all levels of depth and enjoyment.
The console model with third party licencing is also too restrictive to allow true demographic representation. You can't just waltz in and make a console game. Independent film and music truly allows for demographics in those mediums. Console gaming is like the old studio system.
Yeah, this is probably true. I mean, you even need to be a Nintendo-licensed developer for WiiWare. There's a reason that PC gaming is still held in high-esteem, after all, by many hardcore gamers.
3. Third parties are not reacting in the way we want them to.
Yeah, I know. I think that's why there are those wondering when a third-party die-out will occur. Third parties are slower at maneuvering, but worse, they may be indicative of the worse aspects of that old-hollywood era "studio structure" you talked about, and may outright have their heads in the sand.
Deg points out that some Wii games are selling better than their 360 counterparts despite being phoned in. Well that's part of the problem isn't it? We see that as a reason to provide your best stuff to the Wii. The suit sees it as an opportunity to make money with less effort.
You paint a grim picture here Ian, but you also have to agree that a smart third party will increase Wii Support and effort as a result. Just look at the examples of both Guitar Hero and even Rock Band. There are positive outcomes as well as negative ones.
Does he even NEED you when talent is not a requirement for success.
YES. If there's anything that Nintendo's non-gaming successes have shown, it is that if you put your BEST talent on these challenges, you can reap the rewards. Nintendo's best teams made Wii Sports, Wii Fit, and Wii Music even. These are deep games with huge technical challenges that needed to be overcome, and they came out with flying colors. Yes, even Wii Music, which has already found a hardcore fanbase that is crazy about it and has the potential of the evergreen sales that are a result of QUALITY, not phoned-in efforts.
Any company that thinks that you don't need your best, most inventive, most pioneering people on these sorts of games is making a big mistake. The Wii's market is a frontier, full of challenge and adventure, and rewards, for those willing to explore it.
Title: Re: Some interesting tidbits from random japanese developers
Post by: KDR_11k on January 01, 2009, 04:09:57 AM
Their attempts to grow the market however involve dumbing videogames down, at least from my perspective anyway.
Definitely a perspective thing. To PC gamers consoles have been dumbing everything down for years already and the fault lies mostly with the HD consoles (and their ancestors, of course) whose games overlap with the PC's.
Quote
They don't make five games that each appeal to one of five people. They'll make five games that all five people COULD like and as a result two of them like it a lot, two of them think it's okay but aren't thrilled with it and one doesn't like it at all.
Well, there's logic to that. Let's say the ones who like it somewhat have a 50% chance of buying, that means on average 3/5 people buy it while the specialized games appeal to 1/5. Each game costs about the same to make (well, if we're talking about fractions within the old or new market, not the split between the two since the old market demands like 10x the budget) and its sales must be optimized to get those dev costs back. Also at the rate Nintendo is puting games out they can't afford to target each at a different niche (in your example everyone would get one game out of a five game dev cycle, they'd complain about a lack of games immediately), with wide appeal at least most users will like most of the games that come out and get a decent number of games. Hell, you're already complaining now that Nintendo is fracturing their output into two types of games, imagine they made even fewer games that appealed to you.
Quote
I truly believe that videogames require too much active participation to be truly as mainstream as film or music. Nintendo's solution to this seems to be to decrease the amount of effort or skill required to enjoy a game.
Yes because actually swinging the Wiimote around like a bat is much less effort than pressing a button when the on-screen indicators line up. The ones who go towards less skill and effort are the ones who make movie-like games where the gameplay is just an interlude between cutscenes. Hell, in the latest PoP you can't even die, how's that for no effort or skill? Movie games can't allow the player to fail because noone wants to repeatedly rewatch scenes from a "movie" in order to best a challenge, they want to watch the movie to the end. Hence difficulties are dropping everywhere in the hardcore games.
Or are you thinking that Wii Music is the only indicator of what Nintendo is doing? It's a productivity application (what some call a "non-game" which is a weird label anyway, categorizing something by what it isn't rather than by what it is? Is non-FPS a genre?), of course there's no "game over" screen.
