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Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: Stogi on August 13, 2008, 05:27:23 PM

Title: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: Stogi on August 13, 2008, 05:27:23 PM
:::HD =/= Realistic:::

First off, I believe making a game realistic doesn't mean it has to have realistic graphics. WiiSports Bowling is a perfect example of that. So the HD debate goes out the window. Still, I'd like to say that making the game realistically intuitive doesn't mean it has to be a waggle fest either.

I don't know about you, but GoldenEye: License to Kill: Pistols is still one of my favorite ways to play a FPS. I like the fact that it was fast, sharp, and fun. When it's easy to die, you are more worried about dieing. I know it sounds simple, but it's true. There's a sort of anxiety and adrenal that I felt playing that game, that I haven't felt in a long time. Why is that?

:::Realism stems from realistic behavior:::

A realistic game needs a realistic "game world", realistic collision detection as well as physics, animation, and AI. Graphics are the least important part. Imagine a game that took into account where you were shot. If you were shot in the leg, you would limp. If you were shot in the arm, you couldn't hold an assault rifle. If you were shot in the torso, it would slow your agility and speed. Games these days call themselves realistic, but really only have realistic graphics and weapons. There are facets of the game that need to be rethought with at least the same effort developers put into HD graphics.

(http://i37.tinypic.com/2s7j3nq.jpg)
Notice how the player has been shot in the left leg

:::Player-controlled-context sensitive buttons opens up restrictive gameplay:::

I believe the Wii is the only console that can benefit greatly from what I call "context sensitive control schemes." Similar to RE4 with it's ability to change it's control scheme from moving to shooting with a simple button-hold, I think the Wii can use multiple context sensitive schemes to expand the over-arching control scheme and do away with inventive but ultimately annoyingly inaccurate "waggle" control (ie pushing the remote forward to zoom in). Instead, zooming can work like this: when holding the "A" button, which brings up your scope, the "C" button, normally used for jumping, is now used in conjunction with the analog stick to zoom in and out. You hold the "C" button down as you move the joystick back and forth to adjust the zoom. Needless to say, you'll be holding two buttons, interacting with the joystick, and pressing a third button when your ready to fire. While that may sound complicated, the Wii controller is makes it easy due to the nature of the controller being disjointed.

(http://i34.tinypic.com/mmbqm1.jpg)

Now that's just one example of changing a button's action in coordination with another.

This setup would finally put to rest any claims that the wiimote needs more buttons. That said, I'm not promoting the idea that every button needs 8 different functions. Instead, I'd like to think that the button (joystick, etc) would intuitively change to the appropriate action if you were to play in that certain context of a game for the entire game.... I hope I didn't lose you.... What I'm saying is: if I were to play the entire game through a scope of a rifle, wouldn't I want a fast and responsive zoom? If you break down a game into its parts and look at one specific part as though it were the entire game, you'll find that the easiest and most proficient control scheme for that part wouldn't coincide well with those from other parts of the game. So while jumping maybe necessary and deserving of its own button for the running and gunning portion of the game; when looking through a scope, you realize that the ability to manage your zoom is far more important. And that's exactly how the compliment is made.

(NOTE: The "C" button can also have another ability, one that's also context sensitive. Since it is used to jump, it would make sense for the game to prompt context sensitive commands that pertain to jumping: such as, jumping out of windows, or jump fences, and/or sliding down staircase rails)

:::Evasion is just as important as attacking:::

Another example of modern day games not being realistic is evasion. There are so many times in other games that I wish I could evade quicker but instead I have to try to run away and hide. It's because of this most games boil down to who sees the other person first.  Dodging really is still a new facet of gameplay that has yet to be explored in a FPS, especially the dive roll. GOW used diving extensively, and I think they did it well; however, GOW gameplay still lacks in quality. The dive roll would work simply by pressing the "Z" button (which normally makes you crouch) while the analog stick is pushed fully towards one side. Also, when running (performed by double tapping forward) or jumping, pressing the "Z" button will make you dive. The view would switch briefly from FP to TP; returning to FP after about a second. You can even dive into people to knock them down. Diving into them from behind or in front could activate another context where you could bludgeon them. These are just a bunch of ideas, but I really think there needs to be a defensive evasive maneuver. The important thing about this maneuver is the fact that your aim is still independent from your movements. So while you maybe diving all over the place with your view switching back and forth, you can always rely on your aim to still be fixated on that persons head.

Another unexplored tactic is sliding. When running, if you press and hold the "Z" button, you will first initiate a running dive that will be followed by an on the back slide (if the ground permits). Sliding allows you to shoot or melee your enemy's while still fast-moving and low to the floor. And based on what type of ground your are sliding on, your slides can be as short as 2 meters (smooth cement) or can go on forever (sliding down a snow hill). This is more of an offensive maneuver.

These tactics will finally help put an end to stiff FPS's, where the only way to dodge is to strafe side to side or jump. Dodging will allow the player to experience far fewer deaths (especially poorly deserved deaths) and ultimately make the game more satisfying to play. If people are harder to kill, then it'll be more rewarding when you do kill a player.

:::The switch between different views lends itself to the most effective gameplay:::

One thing that Halo 3 does well (oh god, bear with me) is changing back and forth from FP to TP view. The Wii has capitalized on that switch before (Prime 3), but in this case it could be the frame MotionPlus support needs. Along side the normal weapons your character can hold is a melee weapon. Unsheathing the weapon (NOTE: by pressing a button different than the weapon-cycle button), be it a sword or pipe or whatever, moves the view from FP to over-the-shoulder TP to help the player better determine how far their reach extends ultimately making it easier to hit that unsuspecting enemy. To swing, you need to first hold "A" down (which locks the view), then replicate the motion one to one. The melee weapon can even be thrown simply by pressing "B" after holding down "A". (NOTE: Pressing "B" or fire when not holding down "A" first will instantly transfer you back to "gun-mode")

(http://i37.tinypic.com/23sus8y.jpg)

What's interesting is in this mode one could add a lock-on feature. If you happen to be aiming at someone, holding down "A" would not only allow you the freedom to perform 1 to 1 motions, but also let you strafe around the person you were aiming at.

The only problem with this idea, is how well aiming and turning in third person works.

:::Overall, fast, competitive, smart, versatile gameplay is the most important aspects of the FPS:::

With this setup, you can have a very realistic FPS that focuses on agility, sharp aim, and strategy.

Imagine a game that had no HUD except for a small ammo count and a transparent outline of a body that shows exactly where you are hurting; a game that focuses on managing your weaponry and ammo, instead of simply running and gunning; a game that focuses on disabling and sharp shooting, rather than spraying and hoping; a game where you can dive out of harms way, regroup, and exchange shots; a game where a pistol is actually a worthy gun; a game where your missions are clearly laid out, but not spoon-fed during the actual campaign.

Now, the FPS genre has come along in some respect. For instance, I like the fact that there is an auto-heal if you can manage to duck out of harms way. What I hate is the fact that it's unlimited. Running away when being shot too many times isn't a bad idea, but coming back out to fight as if nothing happened is annoying. And what's worse is that you can still shoot while your healing.

Instead, I think a compromise needs to made. Imagine being shot so bad that you barely make it out of harms way. You can heal yourself by way of morphine shot, but you only have so much morphine. You'll have to re-up to be able to continually heal your wounds. Plus, while you heal, you'll literally see yourself stick a needle into your arm; so no more shooting while you heal. This way people can't just run away as they wait to heal. Also, it'll make health an issue once again. Maybe you don't want to use your last morphine shot even though your arm was shot. Maybe you can survive until more morphine is available.

Anyway, I think that there needs to be more thought put in to FPS's and not just in the way of graphics, but rather fun and inventive gameplay with strategy and cleverness at its heart. That's where you'll get the adrenaline and the rush.

Your thoughts?
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: Morari on August 13, 2008, 05:40:24 PM
Dodging really is still a new facet of gameplay that has yet to be explored in a FPS

Have you ever played Unreal Tournament? UT2K4 is especially prevalent when it comes to double jumps, quick dodging, wall jumps, etc. Even without these specific combos, the likes of Quake has been about circle strafing and dodging rockets since the very beginning.

Overall, realism ruins the FPS genre. For example, I remember playing a Tom Clancy game years and years ago and almost instantly throwing my mouse aside and turning it off. You couldn't run, you couldn't jump, your weapons all sounded like pea-shooters, and one shot from an unknown location would kill you. Not fun.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: ShyGuy on August 13, 2008, 06:06:43 PM
I remember reading an interview with Miyamoto years back (I think it was about Wind Waker, the details are fuzzy) and he was talking about realism. He gave the the example of a hand throwing a ball up in the air and catching it. Instead of working to make the hand as realistic as possible, and rendering the ball with complete accuracy, he thought it was more realistic to have a cartoon hand but illustrate the motion in a believable way and to have the hand catch the ball without any clipping.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: Stogi on August 13, 2008, 06:09:45 PM
Dodging really is still a new facet of gameplay that has yet to be explored in a FPS

Have you ever played Unreal Tournament? UT2K4 is especially prevalent when it comes to double jumps, quick dodging, wall jumps, etc. Even without these specific combos, the likes of Quake has been about circle strafing and dodging rockets since the very beginning.

Overall, realism ruins the FPS genre. For example, I remember playing a Tom Clancy game years and years ago and almost instantly throwing my mouse aside and turning it off. You couldn't run, you couldn't jump, your weapons all sounded like pea-shooters, and one shot from an unknown location would kill you. Not fun.

I can see that and that's why I love the TimeSplitter series, but that's not the point. The point is the Wii can make the most realistic shooter, period.

That said realism can be fun. Have you ever paintballed? It's fun to be tactical, smart.

I remember reading an interview with Miyamoto years back (I think it was about Wind Waker, the details are fuzzy) and he was talking about realism. He gave the the example of a hand throwing a ball up in the air and catching it. Instead of working to make the hand as realistic as possible, and rendering the ball with complete accuracy, he thought it was more realistic to have a cartoon hand but illustrate the motion in a believable way and to have the hand catch the ball without any clipping.

That's exactly my point. Thank God for Miyamoto.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: Morari on August 13, 2008, 06:37:39 PM
That said realism can be fun. Have you ever paintballed? It's fun to be tactical, smart.

Nope, but I've done laser tag plenty of times. It's not nearly as expensive, given that you aren't constantly buying paintballs and C02 tanks. I guess you do miss some of the visceral feeling with laser tag however, as you can't hear shots whizzing by.

Being tactile in first person shooters generally means camping, which isn't very fun for anyone and certainly is the antithesis of that dodging spiel. Load up Quake 2 (or even better, Quake 3 with the Generations Arena mod!) and go up against a few good players on Tokay's Towers. It's ripe with mind games just from the layout of the map... all without having to shove a false feeling of tactical gameplay down your throat.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: Ian Sane on August 13, 2008, 06:38:43 PM
I love the attention to detail you put into this post.  I really like the idea of seemlessly transitioning from first person to third person as needed.  So many games scream out for this but do it sh!tty.  Like in Splinter Cell for instance a third person view is ideal for sneaking around.  Once the shooting breaks out a first person view is better for aiming.  Except the first person mode in that game sucks.  Why can't they just make it so when I switch to a first person view that it CONTROLS LIKE AN FPS?!  DUH!!  Ditto with the other way.  If I'm playing a predominantly first person game and I switch to third person to fight or climb something why doesn't it play like Devil May Cry or God of War?

I also agree with your point about how realism is about how things react and not how things look.  To bring up Splinter Cell again (can you tell that game pissed me off?) I would sneak up on a guy shoot him in the throat and all this would do would "wake him up" so that he sees me and shoots me.  Hello?  I just shot you in the neck.  You're dead or you're on the ground grasping at your throat as you bleed to death allowing me to finish you off.  Or that's what WOULD happen.  The problem I think is that when developers go for realism they take it very literally to the point that it ruins the fun.  No one for example thinks having to eat to avoid starving to death is much fun.  No one thinks getting shot once and you're dead is fun but having the AI bad guys react realistically to you shooting them is fun.  That's just the nature of the "one guy vs. thousands" design so many games have.  The reason I have an energy bar and you have one hit is because I would get creamed in real life.  I need the handicap in order to make things fair enough to be fun.  And if you're such a stickler about realism then fine - I'm a robot so I can take more bullets.  Done.

The Wii is perfectly capable of a game like this.  In theory even the remote isn't a restriction because there's the classic controller.  The console has two standards and you can use whichever one works better.  The only real restrictions the Wii has are anything that involves a lot of storage or anything designed for more advanced hardware.  But you can make an ambitious game like this on the Wii provided you design it for the Wii from the ground up.

The biggest restrictions are the image the console has and the fact that is underpowered in comparison to the competition.  It isn't incapable of making ambitious games.  The Cube was capable of such games after all.  It just has the problem that if this game is made for one of the other consoles first porting is a b!tch.  And Nintendo has given the console the image of being for casuals and Nintendo franchise fans.  If Nintendo however made something like this that wasn't a sequel and pushed it like a major title it could change everything.  So far it's just non-games and sequels.  The Wii needs a proof or concept for games like this.

One thing that I really think would be cool is if someone like Nintendo took all the stuff they learned from previous games and threw them into one.  For a simple example think of something like Wave Race.  Hey there's a cool engine for driving a jet ski.  So if I'm making a big action adventure game why can't I make it so the character can drive around on a jet ski?  The basic leg work is already done.  Now I have to make a bunch of jumps.  Good thing I've got Super Mario Galaxy as a reference.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: NWR_Lindy on August 13, 2008, 07:15:05 PM
Sometimes you need to sacrifice reality for playability.  However, I do like the idea of morphine, or something that penalizes you for getting hit.  I always thought Halo 3 was dumb for giving you unlimited health, to a degree.  You can get off cheap by gunning, running, and hiding until your health is replenished.

It'd be cool to have the idea of a right or left-handed player; if you were right-handed and you got shot in the right shoulder, you could shoot with your left hand but you wouldn't be quite as accurate.  Then you could holster your gun and inject morphine with your left hand, sort of like how it takes a few seconds to replenish your Adam when you're using Plasmids in Bioshock.  I can just imagine how funny it would be in deathmatch, getting the jump on somebody and seeing them run away from you in panic while jabbing a syringe into their arm.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: Morari on August 13, 2008, 08:36:47 PM
If I'm playing a predominantly first person game and I switch to third person to fight or climb something why doesn't it play like Devil May Cry or God of War?

Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines did that. Unfortunately, shooting wasn't very fun unless you dumped lots of points in that skill. Likewise, the third person melee combat was a little too hack n' slash, I believe. Still, a great game with some of the best characters and dialogue to ever exist in the medium. I just wish the ending hadn't been rushed. :(

No one for example thinks having to eat to avoid starving to death is much fun.

That depends highly upon the game. There were plenty of mods for Morrowind that made nutrition a requirement and it worked very well. Morrowind, with the proper mods applied, was very close to be the most perfect game ever though...
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: EasyCure on August 13, 2008, 11:06:18 PM
i love the OP here, simply amazing.

I pretty much agree with everything you said, in that this sort of gameplay would make an FPS more realistic w/o having to be HD.

I said once in another post, when mentioning goldeneye007, that in that game as well as most FPS games i prefer pistols over rifles because i love making shots count. Give me a magnum with a 5 or 6 chamber barrell and i'll shoot you where it hurts, your fucking face.. its such a rush going up against goons with with huge assualt rifles and picking them off with a wel aimed headshot.

i'd take your idea of a minimal HUD a lil further and borrow something i liked from Perfect Dark; blurred vision effects when hit with mellee attacks (in PD's case fists to the face). The morphine or whatever make believe health regenerating drug they want to use in this game should have a similar affect for even more penelty. You use it to regain health at the cost of  not only being unable to weild a weapon but for a few seconds back into the fray, your aim is offset by hazed vision.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: Stogi on August 13, 2008, 11:55:54 PM
Even though I hated the blurring effect of PD, that is one thing I think better graphics can help with and actually make it a brilliant part of the game. The blur doesn't have to be ridiculous as it was in PD either, especially since it's easy enough to add a swooping effect to the players aim as if they were holding a sniper. That way, it'll make it hard to shoot, but not completely disorientate the persons view.

I also like the idea of the health drug messing with your abilities. The more I think about it, the more I think it's brilliant. And I'll take your idea one step further. During the few seconds of hazed vision, the character should breath real heavy (which will distort the view even more by making the view bob gently up and down) and blink a couple times as well. Imagine how crazy it would be trying to fight during those few seconds with your vision blurry, view bobbing up and down, and occasionally seeing the inside of your eye lids. Also the sound should sound like it's in a tunnel and slowed down.

One thing that I really think would be cool is if someone like Nintendo took all the stuff they learned from previous games and threw them into one.  For a simple example think of something like Wave Race.  Hey there's a cool engine for driving a jet ski.  So if I'm making a big action adventure game why can't I make it so the character can drive around on a jet ski?  The basic leg work is already done.  Now I have to make a bunch of jumps.  Good thing I've got Super Mario Galaxy as a reference.

Holy ****! Your absolutely right!

That was one of my points in the OP. If every developer looked at the game in parts, and used the best possible control and gameplay for each part, then the total package has to be nothing short of ridiculous. Who better than Nintendo?
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: IceCold on August 14, 2008, 12:47:29 AM
Very well written, couldn't agree with you more about the context sensitive motions.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: EasyCure on August 14, 2008, 01:49:31 PM
Even though I hated the blurring effect of PD, that is one thing I think better graphics can help with and actually make it a brilliant part of the game. The blur doesn't have to be ridiculous as it was in PD either, especially since it's easy enough to add a swooping effect to the players aim as if they were holding a sniper. That way, it'll make it hard to shoot, but not completely disorientate the persons view.

I also like the idea of the health drug messing with your abilities. The more I think about it, the more I think it's brilliant. And I'll take your idea one step further. During the few seconds of hazed vision, the character should breath real heavy (which will distort the view even more by making the view bob gently up and down) and blink a couple times as well. Imagine how crazy it would be trying to fight during those few seconds with your vision blurry, view bobbing up and down, and occasionally seeing the inside of your eye lids. Also the sound should sound like it's in a tunnel and slowed down.

One thing that I really think would be cool is if someone like Nintendo took all the stuff they learned from previous games and threw them into one.  For a simple example think of something like Wave Race.  Hey there's a cool engine for driving a jet ski.  So if I'm making a big action adventure game why can't I make it so the character can drive around on a jet ski?  The basic leg work is already done.  Now I have to make a bunch of jumps.  Good thing I've got Super Mario Galaxy as a reference.

Holy ****! Your absolutely right!

That was one of my points in the OP. If every developer looked at the game in parts, and used the best possible control and gameplay for each part, then the total package has to be nothing short of ridiculous. Who better than Nintendo?

I like those ideas you added. I'd take the morphine/drug use for regenerating health idea a little further in that.

Say you can only use the drug 3 times a match. We agree upon not being able to use a weapon, as well as physical affects on the players character (such as the hazed vision/bobing camera). But what if we give the player a little bit of a risk/reward situation?
You end up using your 3rd syringe or whatever, and you survive passed the initial affects the drugs have on you, but all of a sudden your character speeds up: you're experiencing an adrenaline rush. It's short lived though because you'll soon go into cardiac arrest.

Personally i really like the idea but i'm not sure many of you will. Its something i've brought up to other gamer friends who like FPS' and they never liked it. Just imagine having a moment, a few seconds, where your character is sped up and the other players are slowed down so you can pull off as many kills/crucial shots off as you can before your health starts to degenerate, you come out of your adrenaline high and become sluggish, until you ultimately die.

The same sort of adrenaline rush could be applied to a different game mechanic, one without the risk. Take K-Stogi's dodgine and manueverabilty and add a adrenaline meter. Succesfully dodge melee attacks or point blank shots and your character can experience the same sort of hightened sense moment without being penalized.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: Armak88 on August 14, 2008, 02:30:56 PM
The problem with the cardiac arrest portion of your idea is that it ends in an unavoidable death. Now if you had something like a suicide pill that made you super fast and essentially invincible for 20 or 30 seconds but then you die, it might have some functionality. This way when your cornered with no health items and are on the edge of death you can choose to kill yourself for the chance to take down as many people as possible in the next 20 seconds.

I like the idea of adrenaline being a gameplay mechanic though. It would be cool if adrenaline made you a bit faster or see sharper, and your adrenaline only goes up when you are being shot at.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: EasyCure on August 14, 2008, 02:46:07 PM
The problem with the cardiac arrest portion of your idea is that it ends in an unavoidable death. Now if you had something like a suicide pill that made you super fast and essentially invincible for 20 or 30 seconds but then you die, it might have some functionality. This way when your cornered with no health items and are on the edge of death you can choose to kill yourself for the chance to take down as many people as possible in the next 20 seconds.

I like the idea of adrenaline being a gameplay mechanic though. It would be cool if adrenaline made you a bit faster or see sharper, and your adrenaline only goes up when you are being shot at.

maybe i'm just not getting it but how is your idea different then mine other than the pill giving you adrenaline right away vs having the adrenaline/cardiac arrest happen after using too much (ie: all your stock) of a health regeneration drug...?
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: Armak88 on August 14, 2008, 03:37:20 PM
i guess it is the same, just that i'm separating it from the healing item. It's just that I can understand why you wouldn't want your last health item to turn you into a time bomb.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: Stogi on August 14, 2008, 04:07:46 PM
That idea is pretty sweet, but what was even more impressive was the idea of adrenaline, period.

If getting shot at and killing people increases your aggressiveness, then that finally puts a reward system on how many kills in a row you can manage (rather than just boasting about it). This could fundamentally change how people play the game. If putting yourself in very risky situations and coming out on top gives you the ability to run faster, dive further, jump higher, hit harder, then ultimately, people will play like that.

Kinda reminds me of highlander...
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: DAaaMan64 on August 14, 2008, 04:10:08 PM
That idea is pretty sweet, but what was even more impressive was the idea of adrenaline, period.

If getting shot at and killing people increases your aggressiveness, then that finally puts a reward system on how many kills in a row you can manage (rather than just boasting about it). This could fundamentally change how people play the game. If putting yourself in very risky situations and coming out on top gives you the ability to run faster, dive further, jump higher, hit harder, then ultimately, people will play like that.

Kinda reminds me of highlander...

Damn I haven't read this thread till this post. But if that concept is what this thread is about, that's BADASS.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: NWR_Lindy on August 14, 2008, 05:23:02 PM
Call of Duty 4 already does this.  If you get 3 kills in a row you can press the D-Pad to see your enemies on the map, 5 kills lets you call in a helicopter, and 7 kills in a row lets you call in an airstrike.  In other words, it rewards you for stringing together multiple kills, therefore rewarding skilled players by letting their skills translate into a tangible tactical advantage.  Different execution, but same principle.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: DAaaMan64 on August 14, 2008, 05:26:07 PM
Call of Duty 4 already does this.  If you get 3 kills in a row you can press the D-Pad to see your enemies on the map, 5 kills lets you call in a helicopter, and 7 kills in a row lets you call in an airstrike.  In other words, it rewards you for stringing together multiple kills, therefore rewarding skilled players by letting their skills translate into a tangible tactical advantage.  Different execution, but same principle.

But not as cool. You'd FEEL like a badass this way. 
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 14, 2008, 07:16:42 PM
Why does soldier that's GOOD AT KILLING get to call in bonus airstrikes?  That's completely backwards.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: Armak88 on August 14, 2008, 07:40:43 PM
haha, so you want airstrikes to be the blue shell of fps's?
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: EasyCure on August 14, 2008, 10:07:49 PM
Call of Duty 4 already does this.  If you get 3 kills in a row you can press the D-Pad to see your enemies on the map, 5 kills lets you call in a helicopter, and 7 kills in a row lets you call in an airstrike.  In other words, it rewards you for stringing together multiple kills, therefore rewarding skilled players by letting their skills translate into a tangible tactical advantage.  Different execution, but same principle.

But not as cool. You'd FEEL like a badass this way. 

exactly. throw yourself out there to be the best and get rewarded for pulling it off. So what if i get 30 kills while the player in 2nd place got like 15. Like K-stogi said why just boast about it?

And i havent played Call of Duty 4 but that sounds kinda lame, if there isnt more to it then getting rewarded for getting a certain number of kills in a row. You can rack that up being a cheap camper, so why should you get to call in airstrikes and whatnot?

Now if i'm dodging shots at point blank range, pulling off a headshot while sliding on the ground (using the example in the OP) or doing a disarm manuever face to face with my oponent, it would be awesome for my characters aim to be steadier and be faster/tougher than everyone else to really feel like i'm pwning, even if its temporary
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: Morari on August 14, 2008, 10:25:07 PM
Now if i'm dodging shots at point blank range, pulling off a headshot while sliding on the ground (using the example in the OP) or doing a disarm manuever face to face with my oponent [...]

This is starting to sound like F.E.A.R. :D
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 15, 2008, 01:11:33 AM
There's also that John Woo game that came out within the last year, and some of the "realistic damage" qualities mentioned at the top of the thread were prominently featured in tactical FPS games that came out nearly 10 years ago.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: vudu on August 15, 2008, 02:34:00 PM
You guys are describing Army of Two and Haze, neither of which are exactly considered the pinnacle of the FPS genre.

Kashogi, what game is pictured in the first screen shot in your original post? 
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: ShyGuy on August 15, 2008, 02:39:13 PM
I think it's Da Time Splittahz Triple.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: Stogi on August 15, 2008, 03:21:51 PM
TS2

EDIT: Vudu, I've never played those games.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: DAaaMan64 on August 15, 2008, 03:23:23 PM
Gawd I hope TS4 comes out on Wii I love TS.

LOL check out there contact page,
http://www.frd.co.uk/contact.php

their whole website is like that ;)
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 15, 2008, 04:15:37 PM
TS2

EDIT: Vudu, I've never played those games.

Hardly anyone else bothered to play them either Flop Person Shooters
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: NWR_Lindy on August 16, 2008, 01:02:53 PM
Why does soldier that's GOOD AT KILLING get to call in bonus airstrikes?  That's completely backwards.

Nah, it's awesome.  Really makes the other team get on their toes.  Besides, the amount of times somebody actually gets a streak like that going is maybe 3 or 4 times a match, total.  It's weighted pretty nicely, and the attacks don't wipe out the other team wholesale.  Just makes them run for their lives.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: Stogi on August 17, 2008, 02:12:17 PM
Helicopters are cheap as **** though.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: NWR_Lindy on August 17, 2008, 02:34:02 PM
Helicopters are cheap as **** though.

Yeah, that's what I find funny - you get an airstrike after a helicopter, but the helicopter is so much more deadly.  At least you can run away from the airstrike...if you're out in the open and a helicopter spots you, you're as good as dead.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: Stogi on August 18, 2008, 12:29:44 PM
So I know I didn't mention this, but uh.........vehicles.

Vehicles are WAY more fun when they are not realistic (this could be said about FPS's in general; I'm not here to argue that). I'm not talking about hovercars or alien vehicles either. I'm talking about indestructible weapons of death. One thing about the original Halo that'll always put a smile on my face is the warthog. There was nothing better than setting a trap for the unsuspecting hog rolling my way and watching that bad boy fly way across the level only then to be taking by me. (I also liked the fact that you could remotely blow up grenades using another grenade to perform that very gratifying super explosion)

That **** was hilarious. In Halo 2 and 3, they made them destructible; taking away the "grown man's toy" nature of the warthog. That was a sad day.

Instead, they really should of expanded on the toyish nature of the warthog instead of breaking it down and making the vehicle more "fair". For instance, I would have loved an item that could drive the vehicle remotely. I don't know how it would work; maybe you hop in the driver's seat, attach it, then bail. You'd then pull up the item (a DS!) and then direct the vehicle. Anyway, this one item would open up a wide range of gameplay, and for the more clever, a wide range of ways to brutally kill and humiliate your opponent.

Imagine rigging up an assault vehicle full of grenades and time mines then remotely driving that bad boy into the enemy camp. I can't imagine the look on people's faces when they know what's coming next. However, since the vehicle is susceptible to grenades and rockets, you'll have to be a damn good driver in order to make your delivery of death or else you'll see your car fly sky high.

Now take that very idea and instead think of a boat. I don't know about you but I fuckin' love boats (in real life and in videogames). Every time I'm in a boat I feel like something bad ass is about to happen. Maybe I'm wrong, but I have yet to see a FPS incorporate boat play as well as they incorporated trucks and cars. Now why is that? Is it the level design? Would it be too hard or take to much time? Or maybe it's because graphics would require too much to render usable, swim-able water. Still, I can't imagine how much fun it would be to play in a level where you and your buddy can hop on a jet-ski and have some head to head brawls on open water. Or imagine how satisfying it would be to completely annihilate an opponent whizzing by on a jet-ski with a perfect rocket from across the map. You could even take that further and have ramps, providing the option to use the jet-ski as a bomb. Now, jet-ski's don't have to be the only form of water transportation. You could have basically the equivalent of a warthog, but a boat. It would be more sluggish, but have a higher top speed. The gunner would have to compensate for the waves, but luckily you'd be playing on the Wii.

The possible game designs and level designs are endless.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 18, 2008, 02:01:30 PM
The ULTIMATE Internet-Saving FPS experience involves steering your ride with the Whiil, controlling gas & brake with the Balance Board, and cappin' foo's with the Zapper.

Give it 4 months, and Sega will announce an Shadow the Hedgehog sequel with these mechanics.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: Morari on August 18, 2008, 07:54:58 PM
Far Cry had plenty of boats, as well as ground based vehicles. There was one multiplayer map that was simply a little string of islands and revolved almost completely around boat combat. It was pretty neat, as there were ramps in the water and such.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: NWR_Lindy on August 19, 2008, 11:35:55 AM
You could have a little robot like the MK III in Metal Gear Solid 4.  You pilot it around and look through its camera, but while you're controlling it you're immobile and susceptible to enemy attack.  Then, when the time is right...BOOM.

Call it the RDR - Remote Detonation Robot.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on August 19, 2008, 12:55:22 PM
Since this is apparently the "old ideas that seem new because I've only played three FPS games yet still think I know everything about them" thread, I'll suggest a sniper rifle.  That'd be rad.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: EasyCure on August 19, 2008, 02:05:39 PM
You could have a little robot like the MK III in Metal Gear Solid 4.  You pilot it around and look through its camera, but while you're controlling it you're immobile and susceptible to enemy attack.  Then, when the time is right...BOOM.

Call it the RDR - Remote Detonation Robot.

you mean like the bombspy?
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: Stogi on August 19, 2008, 02:29:03 PM
Since this is apparently the "old ideas that seem new because I've only played three FPS games yet still think I know everything about them" thread, I'll suggest a sniper rifle.  That'd be rad.

QFT

I've played:
TimeSplitters
64 FPS's
Crysis (just for a little while at my buddy's)
Serious Sam
Half Lives
Halos
XIII
Red Steel
COD's
MOH's
Black
Kill Zone

I'm sure there's some more I forgot.

But seriously....can't most of these ideas be actually GOOD with the Wii? All those games, except the PC ones always pissed me off with there lack of control. Sure I can have a great time with some of them, but need I remind you, I'm HIGH ALL THE TIME. It's too easy for me to have fun.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 19, 2008, 03:25:53 PM
You've only played all the mainstream arcadey casualcore shooters that are gentle enough to empower the player's desires.

You missed out on all the military/tactical simulations from 1997-(up to the original Ghost Recon trilogy) that are relatively difficult, demanding, and show very little mercy to the player (which the mainstream fantasy soldier gamers don't enjoy, leading to Ubisoft casualizing the genre).
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: EasyCure on August 19, 2008, 03:27:31 PM
and here i thought it was just your gimmick
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: Stogi on August 19, 2008, 03:45:57 PM
I've played Ghost Recon, but mostly the 64 Rainbox Six. That game was pretty dope. I got bored with the genre after SoCom

and here i thought it was just your gimmick

 I don't understand. Care to clarify.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: EasyCure on August 19, 2008, 03:55:52 PM
I've played Ghost Recon, but mostly the 64 Rainbox Six. That game was pretty dope. I got bored with the genre after SoCom

and here i thought it was just your gimmick

 I don't understand. Care to clarify.

Why doesnt anyone understand my post?
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: Stogi on August 19, 2008, 03:57:02 PM
That's on you.

But seriously....what are you talking about? ???
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: EasyCure on August 19, 2008, 04:00:11 PM
your pot-head persona.

I sarcastically said i thought it was your gimmick on the forums because you said you're 'HIGH ALL THE TIME'
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: Stogi on August 19, 2008, 04:05:13 PM
Ahh, I see. You thought I was saying I'm a weedaholic just to be cool. Naw, man. What you see is what you get.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: EasyCure on August 19, 2008, 04:10:48 PM
Ahh, I see. You thought I was saying I'm a weedaholic just to be cool. Naw, man. What you see is what you get.

again, i said it sarcastically cuz some of your post prove you're a fan of the herbal. Especially anything that has to do with music ;)
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: Stogi on August 19, 2008, 04:16:50 PM
That made me giggle.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: Stogi on November 30, 2008, 01:49:41 PM
So my brother and I played Rainbox Six: Vegas 2 this weekend on my PS3 and I must say, that game is pretty fun. There are some things that pissed me off about it, but the feeling when you complete a terrorist hunt involving 35 terrorists and a casino is so satisfying.

It incorporated some really nice touches such as being able to shoot blindly from around corners and over tables. It forced teamwork on you and made it almost impossible to be a run and gun badass.

That said, I wish the game had somethings such as evasive maneuvers (diving and rolling). I also wish that I could hear footsteps, breathing, and other humanly mannerisms to help me locate enemies without seeing them. Another thing I wished I could do was use decoys. Maybe something as simple as throwing a rock through a window.

It's mostly a fun game though.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on November 30, 2008, 04:06:46 PM
Welcome to 1998.
Title: Re: Even without HD, can the Wii make the most realistic, deep FPS?
Post by: Stogi on November 30, 2008, 04:31:00 PM
Like I said earlier, I've played Rainbow Six before. It was on the 64.