Gaming Forums => General Gaming => Topic started by: D_Average on July 22, 2008, 04:02:11 PM
Title: Controller Timeline
Post by: D_Average on July 22, 2008, 04:02:11 PM
Here's an interesting video I saw recently about the history of controllers. Most of it you probably know already, but they do a good job of tying it all together. http://www.onnetworks.com/videos/play-value/controllers?autoplay=true
Moral of the video, Nintendo pwns the controller market! That said, what's your favorite controller of all time? Mine is the N64's, though its clunky today, at the time there was nothing else like it, and I I found it quite comfortable for my large hands.
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: DAaaMan64 on July 22, 2008, 04:12:35 PM
Mine is the wavebird. It's so wonderfully comfortable its god like.
Changes I'd make to it:
- Rumble duurr - Full size c-stick - maybe a different position on the z-button. Like on the inside of the right handle.
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: Morari on July 22, 2008, 04:37:08 PM
I really liked the Dreamcast controller, actually. Extensive use of the back triggers led to crab-finger, but the VMU idea is hard to beat.
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: Ian Sane on July 22, 2008, 04:55:02 PM
I really like the N64 one though sadly it feels dated now because of the analog stick. At the time it was a big deal but analog sticks today are so superior in design. It's a design flaw that no one knew was a design flaw until something better came out.
The N64 controller was the perfect balance of moving forward without abandoning the past. It's funny that people accuse it of being designed entirely with Super Mario 64 in mind because for it's time it was very flexible. Is it because the C buttons have arrows? If the game required the analog stick you used the middle prong. If it didn't you used the left prong. Easy as pie and clearly designed to accomodate two different eras of game design. And although the N64 sure as hell wasn't a developer friendly console they got the controller right.
These days Nintendo just makes whatever they feel like for the games they feel like making and anything that doesn't fit that plan is ignored. The Cube has that stupid button placement and stupid useless d-pad. Ergonomically the controller was flawless but it was inflexible, clearly designed only for Nintendo. For any game designed with anything more conventional in mind you had to fight the controls a fair bit. The Wiimote takes it an obvious step further throwing out decades of game control design in favour of a very one dimensional design. Waggle is Nintendo's failure.
A controller should be evolutionary, taking the existing ideas of previous designs and building upon them. The N64 was the last controller Nintendo designed to do that. Probably a fluke but at the time it looked like they were trying to design a controller standard and they did a good job of it.
If Sony didn't have annoying design details like buttons named after shapes and a split d-pad they would have a pretty damn good controller. The classic controller is pretty much the same design but done better and it shows how solid the design is for the most part. It isn't perfect since there's the problem that some controllers in the past had four shoulder buttons and some had six face buttons but it's a good practical design overall. Of course they aped it from Nintendo's SNES controller and stumbled on the dual analog design by accident.
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 22, 2008, 05:00:11 PM
If the N64 controller's analog stick wasn't so damn flimsy and could be replaced with the stick from the Cube, it would easily be my favorite controller of all time.
As it stands I'd say the Xbox 360 controller is my favorite even though the D-Pad is awful. The sticks are properly placed which is nice. If I could modify it a bit, I would put a SNES D-Pad on it and I would change the triggers to the Gamecube L & R triggers.
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: NWR_insanolord on July 22, 2008, 05:16:21 PM
The only thing keeping the GameCube controller from being perfect was that the Z button should have been on the face and been called Select and there should have been 2 extra shoulder buttons. Even without that it's by far my favorite controller. An N64 pad with a modern analog stick would be amazing too, though.
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: D_Average on July 22, 2008, 05:22:36 PM
As it stands I'd say the Xbox 360 controller is my favorite even though the D-Pad is awful.
I've always found this a bit odd, how do you screw up a D pad? Additionally, Sony's kind of blows too. Perhaps Nintendo has a patent on the D Pad found on Nintendo controllers, and thus, other brands have to create subtle additions to not violate what Nintendo created.
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: ThePerm on July 22, 2008, 05:39:37 PM
the n64 controller by far, it was extremely flexible for all sorts of games. I loved games from platformer, to fighting, to shooting. Strafing to me is more important then aiming in a shooter, 6 buttons for a fighter, ideal camera. If they made a newer version with a better joystick, some extra shoulder buttons, and some tilt control..that'd be awesome. I can imagine a killer shooting game with some basic motion control, combined with extra face buttons. It would be pretty fun with a nice balance. I can then relax with some classic games.
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: D_Average on July 22, 2008, 05:57:40 PM
Nice to see the N64 Controller getting some love, thought I was the only one.
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: EasyCure on July 22, 2008, 07:51:12 PM
I'll throw some love in for the N64 controller. It was great at the time, too bad the analoge stick would get worn out so damn fast (between Smash Bros. and Goldeneye... sheesh). That was the first console i got more than two controllers for because i wanted/needed new sticks to be able to play the games. My only other complaint though is that my hands were too big and it sometimes felt uncomfortable with my left hand in the middle prong. It was rare that i'd feel cramped in there though, but other than that it played like a dream.
I like the SNES padthe best though if it comes to long hours of old school game time. it had the best dpad (i was mad N64's dpad was different) and the buttons were so easy to find by touch because of its simple layout. There were a few times my thumbs would get lost among the n64 controller but its never happened on with my SNES. The shoulder buttons were great too. It may not be the most comfortable thing to hold now though, and thats why i thought the classic controller would end up being my favorite controller ever...
i thought it would add the GC's comfy analog sticks to the timeless SNES design and have a more ergonamic form... but it doesnt. It feels like its always slipping out of my hand, which is crazy because its so damn small i feel like i'm playing my GBASP when my fingers touch. The shoulder buttons are kinda.. bleh to me. They couldnt decide to have GC style ones or SNES style ones so we got a weird hybrid that feels unresponsive in the older games.
The GC pad is also a good one, very comfortable but it has its flaws. I never liked the z-button positioning. I'll defend the face buttons though, i really really like them it was impossible to hit the wrong button with the way the buttons were all shaped.
I never understood the love for quadruple shoulder buttons.. ever since the PS1 they've felt so uncomfortable. I felt like i either had to learn to play with my middle fingers and leave support to only my ring fingers and pinkys, or fumble around with my index fingers up there and end up hitting the wrong button. The X-box controller had those triggers behind your index finger, and it was much more comfortable but again.. i could never get used to using fingers for those AND shoulder buttons at the same time.
I want a hybrid controller, one that combines my favorite features of the SNES, N64 and GC pads. I want the feel of the GC controller with the curved triggers and have the n64s Z button right behind the analog stick (like the N64, duh) and have the SNES face buttons. I might settle for all of the N64 face buttons but i miss X & Y :( The D-pad could stay where it is on the GC style control (just make it bigger and more comfortable) and i guess the 2nd analog stick could stay.. i was never into dual analog so i could care less where that goes
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: Kairon on July 22, 2008, 10:56:31 PM
I <3 N64 controller. T_T
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: EasyCure on July 22, 2008, 11:41:35 PM
I want a hybrid controller, one that combines my favorite features of the SNES, N64 and GC pads. I want the feel of the GC controller with the curved triggers and have the n64s Z button right behind the analog stick (like the N64, duh) and have the SNES face buttons. I might settle for all of the N64 face buttons but i miss X & Y :( The D-pad could stay where it is on the GC style control (just make it bigger and more comfortable) and i guess the 2nd analog stick could stay.. i was never into dual analog so i could care less where that goes
The closest thing we will ever see with that in mind is the Classic Controller. If anyone says anything about the Dpad on the CC you should try a Guilty Gear game on PS2/PS3 then the Wii Guilty Gear game and see how you perform when you play on a PS2 controller and then on a Classic Controller.
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: D_Average on July 23, 2008, 11:11:05 AM
Did anyone actually watch the video? What I found most surprising was that Sony has basically had the same controller since 1997. Never really noticed that....
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: EasyCure on July 23, 2008, 11:23:57 AM
Did anyone actually watch the video? What I found most surprising was that Sony has basically had the same controller since 1997. Never really noticed that....
how he hell do you not notice that? it's a common complaint on these boards!
I want a hybrid controller, one that combines my favorite features of the SNES, N64 and GC pads. I want the feel of the GC controller with the curved triggers and have the n64s Z button right behind the analog stick (like the N64, duh) and have the SNES face buttons. I might settle for all of the N64 face buttons but i miss X & Y :( The D-pad could stay where it is on the GC style control (just make it bigger and more comfortable) and i guess the 2nd analog stick could stay.. i was never into dual analog so i could care less where that goes
The closest thing we will ever see with that in mind is the Classic Controller. If anyone says anything about the Dpad on the CC you should try a Guilty Gear game on PS2/PS3 then the Wii Guilty Gear game and see how you perform when you play on a PS2 controller and then on a Classic Controller.
there's something about the CC's d-pad that i dont like but i can't describe it. I only use it to play VC games, of which i only have a few and rarely play, but there's something different about the way it feels versus the old SNES pad...
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 23, 2008, 12:17:10 PM
The dpad is too small an area and doesn't press down far enough for proper 16-bit satisfaction.
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: Ian Sane on July 23, 2008, 01:13:06 PM
Quote
I swear, sometimes I really wish they'd just chop off the left prong of the N64 controller and sell that. *sigh* perfection...
Funny how everyone above you praising the N64 controller were complimenting it for it's flexibility and your idea of perfection is to remove that flexibility.
I don't really like four shoulder buttons much at all. Eight buttons is a good amount and I prefer six face buttons like the N64 and Saturn had. But if I had to design a good universal controller I think four shoulder buttons is a must because of how popular the Playstation brand has been and how many gamers are familiar with that and how many games have been designed that use that. But I would also include six face buttons. Ten buttons might sound like overkill but why not allow that flexibility? Any old game present in a VC like service would work and a game designer can choose to use as many or as little of the buttons as they want.
So I would have: Six digital face buttons: A,B,C on the bottom; X,Y,Z on the top Four triggers: L1 and R1 are digital, L2 and R2 are analog like the Cube triggers Two analog sticks in the position of the dual-shock, both sticks can also "click" SNES style d-pad in the primary postion - I've thought a lot about putting the analog stick in the primary position but I've realized that d-pads are really hard to use off-center and analog sticks aren't. Rumble Start and Select buttons
This would work with pretty much every console except Intellivision, Colecovision, DS and Wii. I think a good universal console would also have a mouse and keyboard though which could help and who says the Wiimote couldn't be a secondary controller like a joystick, lightgun, trackball, flight stick, etc? PS2 games that actually use the analog range of the face buttons wouldn't work perfectly but how many games actually use that? I think having hard responsive digital face buttons would work better.
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: DAaaMan64 on July 23, 2008, 01:16:55 PM
The whole clicking stick thing is called L3 are R3 on PS and something like LB and RB on 360.
and I hate where my thumb has to go to use those joysticks on the Classic controller and especially the Playstation controller.
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: EasyCure on July 23, 2008, 02:11:18 PM
analog sticks as buttons equal fail, i'm sorry
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: DAaaMan64 on July 23, 2008, 02:19:00 PM
I thought they were pretty useful when they used them for ducking in shooters. But whateva, not having them at all is fine too. ;)
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: EasyCure on July 23, 2008, 03:56:28 PM
i'll be honest, my experience with them was back during the ps1 era and those sticks were just bad. They didnt have a good grip so it was hard enough trying to move with them but when i had to start clicking them inward i lost all stability with it. I don't know how much they've improved on play station since then and i didnt even know xbox had the feature.
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: Kairon on July 23, 2008, 04:14:43 PM
I swear, sometimes I really wish they'd just chop off the left prong of the N64 controller and sell that. *sigh* perfection...
Funny how everyone above you praising the N64 controller were complimenting it for it's flexibility and your idea of perfection is to remove that flexibility.
Did anyone here seriously use the D-pad? I only EVER used it for New Tetris.
Maybe I just don't play enough 2D fighters?
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: Ian Sane on July 23, 2008, 04:24:15 PM
Quote
Did anyone here seriously use the D-pad?
WCW vs nWo: World Tour, man. And the three later wrestling games that used the same basic engine. You just needed one of them. For me this was the killer app for the N64. Yeah these days if I'm going to play the old system I'll play Mario 64 or Zelda or Perfect Dark or something like that but back then this was THE game. Sadly it's hard to get into now because the framerate is REAL slow and it's, well, ugly as sin.
Hard to believe this classic was published by THQ of all companies.
I also used the d-pad for Tony Hawk's Pro Skater. Remember when that series hadn't overstayed its welcome? The first game was one the most innovative games in years.
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: EasyCure on July 23, 2008, 04:28:16 PM
I swear, sometimes I really wish they'd just chop off the left prong of the N64 controller and sell that. *sigh* perfection...
Funny how everyone above you praising the N64 controller were complimenting it for it's flexibility and your idea of perfection is to remove that flexibility.
Did anyone here seriously use the D-pad? I only EVER used it for New Tetris.
Maybe I just don't play enough 2D fighters?
I only used it for tetris and maybe one or 2 fighters i had on the system actually. Well, thats all i can think of. i have to look thru my collectino to see if anything else used the d-pad
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: blackfootsteps on July 23, 2008, 09:14:02 PM
The whole clicking stick thing is called L3 are R3 on PS and something like LB and RB on 360.
LB and RB are the left and right bumpers up on the shoulder. 360 calls the analog stick button LS and RS I'm pretty sure.
i must be a non/casual gamer cuz thats confusing me
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: DAaaMan64 on July 23, 2008, 10:22:24 PM
S = Stick? Maybe?
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: EasyCure on July 23, 2008, 10:35:11 PM
i figured as much, but if someone was guiding me thru a game for the first time and said "OMG use X to launch a grenade, wait hit LS to duck, now hit R to jump and press me to unleash omega attack!" i'd shove the controller thru his face
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: Caliban on July 23, 2008, 10:37:36 PM
It's:
Left Stick Button;
Right Stick Button.
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on July 25, 2008, 01:04:24 PM
I swear, sometimes I really wish they'd just chop off the left prong of the N64 controller and sell that. *sigh* perfection...
I don't really like four shoulder buttons much at all. Eight buttons is a good amount and I prefer six face buttons like the N64 and Saturn had. But if I had to design a good universal controller I think four shoulder buttons is a must because of how popular the Playstation brand has been and how many gamers are familiar with that and how many games have been designed that use that. But I would also include six face buttons. Ten buttons might sound like overkill but why not allow that flexibility? Any old game present in a VC like service would work and a game designer can choose to use as many or as little of the buttons as they want.
So I would have: Six digital face buttons: A,B,C on the bottom; X,Y,Z on the top Four triggers: L1 and R1 are digital, L2 and R2 are analog like the Cube triggers Two analog sticks in the position of the dual-shock, both sticks can also "click" SNES style d-pad in the primary postion - I've thought a lot about putting the analog stick in the primary position but I've realized that d-pads are really hard to use off-center and analog sticks aren't. Rumble Start and Select buttons
This would work with pretty much every console except Intellivision, Colecovision, DS and Wii. I think a good universal console would also have a mouse and keyboard though which could help and who says the Wiimote couldn't be a secondary controller like a joystick, lightgun, trackball, flight stick, etc? PS2 games that actually use the analog range of the face buttons wouldn't work perfectly but how many games actually use that? I think having hard responsive digital face buttons would work better.
Heres the funny thing Ian, I do agree that 4 shoulder buttons in the position suck (360 and PS3) but I sort of like how the classic controller does 4 shoulder buttons L and zL on the left side R and zR on the right side and its not far apart that you need to overextend your pointer fingers in order to press the zL or zR buttons.
But I do agree that I miss 6 face buttons however the last console to do that Xbox1 that had 6 face button screwed it up big time. So I dont miss it anymore.
Also that controller will work on Wii because just release it as an extension controller ALA Nunchuk or Classic Controller ;).
Title: Re: Controller Timeline
Post by: ThePerm on July 26, 2008, 06:34:04 AM
right now as far as traditional controllers go the xbox 360 one is good, if they could modify it to have 6 face buttons n64 style it would be perfect, and the n64 dpad, oh and **** the second joystic....ad a gyro and its totally unnecessary.
right now as far as traditional controllers go the xbox 360 one is good, if they could modify it to have 6 face buttons n64 style it would be perfect, and the n64 dpad, oh and **** the second joystic....ad a gyro and its totally unnecessary.
