Post by: Nick DiMola on July 19, 2008, 04:11:24 AM
With all of the recent stirrings of E3, I felt it necessary to talk a bit about the sentiment of Nintendo abandoning the hardcore. Since Nintendo presented it has been all doom and gloom from the gaming media and fans alike. Though at first blush this seems true, I'm not sure that there is significant proof that Nintendo has abandoned us hardcore gamers.
If we look at the Wii thus far we have a fairly solid collection of titles from Nintendo all geared to satiate the Nintendo "hardcore" crowd. We have seen Zelda, Mario, Metroid, Smash Bros, Battalion Wars, Fire Emblem, Mario Kart, Paper Mario, and Wario Ware on the Wii already. We also know that Nintendo is working on Disaster, Wario Land, Pikmin, Animal Crossing, a new Mario and a new Zelda. Are there really that many franchises they have missed? Nintendo has clearly invested quite a bit in the hardcore, and as we speak, they are still developing more for us.
The down time in Nintendo's release schedule leaves a bit of breathing room for third parties. A classic argument against Nintendo is third parties can't compete with Nintendo's first party offerings. What better can Nintendo do for third parties than give them a window to release without fear of first party competition? Keep in mind that development kicked off late for most third parties due to the Wii being an unexpected hit, so most of their titles are now under development or on the verge of release.
Finally, just because Nintendo had an underwhelming presentation at E3, it doesn't mean they have forgotten about the hardcore. Look at Sony and Microsoft; their press events were equally terrible. E3 is dead now, and the big three don’t treat the venue in the same way they once did.
There is no doubt that Nintendo is evolving, but give them a chance to prove they can cater to both crowds; their track record thus far proves they can.
As of yesterday the Wii has surpassed the 360 in America as the market leader, you can expect more third parties to start investing in Wii development. Some of them will inevitably develop casual titles, but not all of them. We have titles like Madworld, Fatal Frame IV, and The Conduit coming up in the future, and they only represent a portion of what we have to look forward to.
Don't jump ship just yet; there is still plenty to see.
Post by: D_Average on July 19, 2008, 12:53:35 PM
I certainly don't blame Nintendo for their actions as it makes perfect business sense, but it does get a little annoying to hear them preach about meeting both audiences while their actions clearly speak otherwise. That said, I'll enjoy the Nintendo games I have for now, but I'm not going to hold out any hope we'll suddenly get hit with a slew of new IP's and in depth games from the big N.
Post by: Aero Leviathan on July 19, 2008, 01:25:16 PM
Post by: D_Average on July 19, 2008, 02:18:50 PM
Post by: Crimm on July 19, 2008, 02:27:42 PM
Softcore?? 8)
No full-frontal button combos.
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on July 19, 2008, 02:55:49 PM
Post by: Morari on July 19, 2008, 03:11:38 PM
Post by: D_Average on July 19, 2008, 03:14:24 PM
Man, it's no wonder Nintendo may or may not care about you so-called "hardcore" gamers anymore; you're a bunch of whiny little brats.
A bunch of whiny brats that gave them the $$$ to create The Wii in first place. 8)
Post by: NWR_Lindy on July 19, 2008, 03:56:19 PM
A bunch of whiny brats that gave them the $$$ to create The Wii in first place. 8)
EXACTLY. I've given Nintendo hundreds upon hundreds of dollars for their product. In return, they give me games that I'm not remotely interested in. I'm not happy with that. That's not whining, that's customer displeasure. If you ordered a steak well-done and got it rare and bloody, would you consider somebody that returned the steak to the chef a "whiny little brat"? Gimme a break.
Quote
If we look at the Wii thus far we have a fairly solid collection of titles from Nintendo all geared to satiate the Nintendo "hardcore" crowd. We have seen Zelda, Mario, Metroid, Smash Bros, Battalion Wars, Fire Emblem, Mario Kart, Paper Mario, and Wario Ware on the Wii already. We also know that Nintendo is working on Disaster, Wario Land, Pikmin, Animal Crossing, a new Mario and a new Zelda.
Note that of the 15 titles you list in this paragraph, only ONE of them is a new IP (and it also happens to be the one that's most likely to be utterly mediocre). Like D_Average said, if you think that Nintendo is going to suddenly do a 180 and release a ton of new IPs aimed at gaming purists, you're kidding yourself. They've tilted the playing field up towards casual gamers, slowly causing traditional gamers to slide off to the 360 and PS3.
I'll certainly get flamed for this, but I'll say it anyways: I no longer consider the Wii a "gamer's console" because as time goes on, there are less and less "gamer's games" for it. Those types of games have become the exception, not the rule. Flame away, but that's the way I see it, and Nintendo is doing nothing to convince me otherwise. It's like they've said, "OK, make Wii sequels to all of the franchises that our hardcore fans expect, and that should shut them up." I feel like Nintendo releases games like the ones you've listed only out of obligation, not because they really want to. It's like they try to keep up this facade of wanting to appease traditional gamers when they could really care less. It's pretty patronizing, actually.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 19, 2008, 05:03:34 PM
Post by: DAaaMan64 on July 19, 2008, 05:07:09 PM
Post by: NWR_insanolord on July 19, 2008, 05:50:16 PM
Post by: Morari on July 19, 2008, 06:02:38 PM
EXACTLY. I've given Nintendo hundreds upon hundreds of dollars for their product. In return, they give me games that I'm not remotely interested in. I'm not happy with that. That's not whining, that's customer displeasure. If you ordered a steak well-done and got it rare and bloody, would you consider somebody that returned the steak to the chef a "whiny little brat"? Gimme a break.
You didn't order anything. You bought a console. Is the console defective? No? Well then, no more metaphor. If you're delusional enough to believe that Nintendo should read your mind and gear their entire marketing strategy toward you on that basis, then you need to grow up and get with the real world. Besides, steak is gross.
Note that of the 15 titles you list in this paragraph, only ONE of them is a new IP (and it also happens to be the one that's most likely to be utterly mediocre). Like D_Average said, if you think that Nintendo is going to suddenly do a 180 and release a ton of new IPs aimed at gaming purists, you're kidding yourself. They've tilted the playing field up towards casual gamers, slowly causing traditional gamers to slide off to the 360 and PS3.
New IPs don't get released very often anyway, regardless of the system. Expecting as much is setting yourself up for failure right off the bat.
I'll certainly get flamed for this, but I'll say it anyways: I no longer consider the Wii a "gamer's console" because as time goes on, there are less and less "gamer's games" for it. Those types of games have become the exception, not the rule. Flame away, but that's the way I see it, and Nintendo is doing nothing to convince me otherwise. It's like they've said, "OK, make Wii sequels to all of the franchises that our hardcore fans expect, and that should shut them up." I feel like Nintendo releases games like the ones you've listed only out of obligation, not because they really want to. It's like they try to keep up this facade of wanting to appease traditional gamers when they could really care less. It's pretty patronizing, actually.
No console is a gamer's system, that's what PCs are for. Consoles have always been a casual thing simply because of what they are. You plug them in and go, not having to worry about customizing your controls or anything. That's casual, and you console kiddies need to wake up to the reality of it all.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 19, 2008, 07:52:32 PM
This is BS and you know it, Nick. Nintendo sent a strong message with what they said and what they showed at E3: they don't really care about us any more. I may write a blog entry on my thoughts sometime this weekend, although I'm sure others have said everything I'd say by now elsewhere.
Hyping an event is something all companies do, and it is odd that people are putting so much attention on Nintendo's conference when basically every publisher/developer out there treated E3 like a minor event. We have no idea what changed between Reggie's statements and what Nintendo finally decided to do. For a long time it was expected that Kid Icarus would show up and it didn't, heck not many CASUAL games showed up, so I guess that means Nintendo is abandoning casual gamers as well. All the shows were poor, but at least Nintendo's poor show had a theme. Tell me how many "core" games came out each year on N64? Yeah, exactly. Heck you could say the same thing about GC. Nintendo is making more of everything and that is NOT a bad thing.
Post by: DAaaMan64 on July 19, 2008, 08:40:54 PM
Core games = $
Casual games = $$
Core + Casual games = $$$
See what I'm sayin'? Nintendo should just be making both (thats what I think they are doing anyway), it's not like they never made money on core games, they just make more on casual. So why not make both? You'll still end up with more money. I'm sure Nintendo is expanding.
Post by: D_Average on July 19, 2008, 08:49:58 PM
Nintendo's biggest mistake was not making it clear ahead of time that E3 for them was about the mainstream media and casual-friendly stuff and that the core gamer stuff would come at another time. If they'd done that then nobody would have expected anything and nobody would be getting ready to throw their Wii into a woodchipper because Nintendo doesn't love them anymore.
As has been said 100 times by now. Reggie said wait till e3 the core gamers will be greatly pleased.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 19, 2008, 10:07:57 PM
Don't people get it?
Post by: Peachylala on July 19, 2008, 10:13:49 PM
We bitch about VC releases.
We bitch about casual games.
We bitch about E3 2008.
People fail to see that Nintendo is making money, and they are not rushing games like they did back in the GCN era.
Yes, we are such whiny bitches.
Post by: NWR_Lindy on July 19, 2008, 10:22:02 PM
Post by: shammack on July 19, 2008, 10:23:04 PM
Post by: D_Average on July 19, 2008, 10:47:24 PM
All I can say is enjoy Wii Music, guys!
You forgot to add...."Have fun waiting until Spring 2009 to play "disc toss" with your fake dog. 8)
Post by: AV on July 19, 2008, 11:08:18 PM
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on July 20, 2008, 02:44:56 AM
The problem with this E3 is that Nintendo didn't acknowledge any of these problems. What we have here is a failure to communicate. Nintendo not only ignored the traditional gamer at this show, they refused to answer any of our questions and diverted all complaints to Animal Crossing as a huge title that Joe Gamer should get excited for. Sorry, I'm not interested in your rehashed N64 collect-a-thon. You already released that one back on the GameCube... when we called it a casual game.
Instead of coming to the show with some teasers and straight talk for their long-term fans, Nintendo played semantics at E3. They treated us like idiots with their pathetic diversionary tactics. Do you know why people clapped at Miyamoto's Pikmin confirmation? It's not because Pikmin is so beloved (it's really not) but because finally someone at Nintendo gave a straight answer to the traditional gamers. At least, that's why I was clapping.
Post by: ShyGuy on July 20, 2008, 02:46:17 AM
Post by: blackfootsteps on July 20, 2008, 07:11:30 AM
Note that of the 15 titles you list in this paragraph, only ONE of them is a new IP (and it also happens to be the one that's most likely to be utterly mediocre). Like D_Average said, if you think that Nintendo is going to suddenly do a 180 and release a ton of new IPs aimed at gaming purists, you're kidding yourself. They've tilted the playing field up towards casual gamers, slowly causing traditional gamers to slide off to the 360 and PS3.
New IPs don't get released very often anyway, regardless of the system.
Yes they do. A 'hardcore' PC player should know that better than anyone.
Post by: Kairon on July 20, 2008, 10:10:11 AM
Oh, and I also wanted to say this:
Buy third party games. For gosh sakes Nintendo fans buy THIRD PARTY GAMES!!!
Post by: Peachylala on July 20, 2008, 11:04:44 AM
And Miyamoto is seriously the only part of Nintendo I still respect. That, and EAD Tokyo.
And Monolith. And NOA Treehouse. :P
Post by: Mario on July 20, 2008, 12:21:26 PM
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on July 20, 2008, 12:55:48 PM
Post by: Morari on July 20, 2008, 03:06:22 PM
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on July 20, 2008, 03:13:31 PM
I've heard that it's pretty hard to coordinate a strategy in co-op without voice chat.
Post by: OzPrime on July 20, 2008, 03:14:39 PM
A bunch of whiny brats that gave them the $$$ to create The Wii in first place. 8)
EXACTLY. I've given Nintendo hundreds upon hundreds of dollars for their product. In return, they give me games that I'm not remotely interested in. I'm not happy with that. That's not whining, that's customer displeasure. If you ordered a steak well-done and got it rare and bloody, would you consider somebody that returned the steak to the chef a "whiny little brat"? Gimme a break.
That's why I feel so used from Nintendo. It's possible (probable) they couldn't have gotten this crazy success story that is the Wii WITHOUT the core, early adopters buying it for what we usually buy Nintendo systems for. I'm glad they're back to the top of the heap, but for crying out loud give us a reason to continue out brand loyalty! The rest of this year will have a lot of us core gamers looking at the other systems more than usual.
Quote
If we look at the Wii thus far we have a fairly solid collection of titles from Nintendo all geared to satiate the Nintendo "hardcore" crowd. We have seen Zelda, Mario, Metroid, Smash Bros, Battalion Wars, Fire Emblem, Mario Kart, Paper Mario, and Wario Ware on the Wii already. We also know that Nintendo is working on Disaster, Wario Land, Pikmin, Animal Crossing, a new Mario and a new Zelda.QuoteNote that of the 15 titles you list in this paragraph, only ONE of them is a new IP (and it also happens to be the one that's most likely to be utterly mediocre). Like D_Average said, if you think that Nintendo is going to suddenly do a 180 and release a ton of new IPs aimed at gaming purists, you're kidding yourself. They've tilted the playing field up towards casual gamers, slowly causing traditional gamers to slide off to the 360 and PS3.
and if I remember correctly, Animal Crossing was one of their earliest tries at casual gaming, so to insinuate that it's a hardcore game (I'm looking at you Reggie), is nothing more than pandering...
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I'll certainly get flamed for this, but I'll say it anyways: I no longer consider the Wii a "gamer's console" because as time goes on, there are less and less "gamer's games" for it. Those types of games have become the exception, not the rule. Flame away, but that's the way I see it, and Nintendo is doing nothing to convince me otherwise. It's like they've said, "OK, make Wii sequels to all of the franchises that our hardcore fans expect, and that should shut them up." I feel like Nintendo releases games like the ones you've listed only out of obligation, not because they really want to. It's like they try to keep up this facade of wanting to appease traditional gamers when they could really care less. It's pretty patronizing, actually.
If you're gonna get flamed for this, then I'll be the first to give you cover. I pretty much second every word you said. Hopefully there will be something more than "our Mario and Zelda teams are working on new stuff" later on in the year. Good to know Miyamoto and Co. are earning their keep at NCL, guys.
Interesting to note that a lot of us Nintendo fans put up with quite a lot of crap from them and their decisions through the N64 and GC years only to keep coming back hoping they'd do SOMETHING right to get them back into the game. Now, it seems the new found success from the decision they GOT RIGHT, may result in the final straw for a lot of Nintendo fans.
If it IS simply a case of putting on a "casual gamers only" show for E3, then hopefully, the powers that be at Nintendo are aware of the internet uproar and disappointment of their presentation and will at least refine said presentation. An awkward admission of a new Pikmin being made at the 11th hour. WTF?!
Silks, what size kevlar do you wear?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 20, 2008, 03:19:37 PM
Post by: stevey on July 20, 2008, 04:14:24 PM
Nintendo's biggest mistake was not making it clear ahead of time that E3 for them was about the mainstream media and casual-friendly stuff and that the core gamer stuff would come at another time. If they'd done that then nobody would have expected anything and nobody would be getting ready to throw their Wii into a woodchipper because Nintendo doesn't love them anymore.
As has been said 100 times by now. Reggie said wait till e3 the core gamers will be greatly pleased.
Quote
Reggie made it quite clear in May the core would be "pleased" with E3
Reggie doesn't make games or decide on what Nintendo does. It obvious that Reggie did know what was going to be at E3 until a few days before and that Iwata made the reasonable decision not to waste tons of money on a press conference to sell the games to the people that would buy them regardless if shown at E3, spaceworld, or a small press event at their HQ and instead to use the event that the whole world watches to show their "nongames" and "casual games" to people who don't spend their lives checking Nintendo related sites.
Post by: NWR_Lindy on July 20, 2008, 04:49:03 PM
It's funny, Sony and Microsoft didn't have any trouble accomodating both casual and traditional games in their presentations. Obviously their focus is more on traditional gamers, sure, but they made an effort to reach out to both. Nintendo apparently didn't think that such an effort was worth their time, instead focusing on the Fisher-Price portion of their lineup. That's their business, but why on earth they would want to make a gamer like me say, "Wow, there's nothing on Wii that I even remotely want to buy" is beyond me. Like Jonny so eloquently stated, it's their failure - heck, refusal - to communicate to the "hardcore" audience that I find so puzzling. And for Reggie to pass off Animal Crossing as a hardcore title, well...that insults the intelligence of a LOT of people.
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Silks, what size kevlar do you wear?
Have you seen the suit that Iron Man wears?
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 20, 2008, 06:39:23 PM
I think Jonny hit the nail on the head, Nintendo for whatever reason doesn't see it necessary to communicate with the more gamer oriented crowd. Half of the problem is E3, the other half is Nintendo. They know where the money is at, and they know that *most* current Nintendo fans will eat up any scraps they throw us regardless, so why bother catering to us at press events? We don't drive their business anymore, so sadly enough they don't really care.
I won't argue for a minute that Nintendo seems to no longer have respect for us old faithfuls, but I won't agree that we have been abandoned. I honestly think there is plenty proof that they will still produce a number of titles geared toward us.
Post by: Stogi on July 20, 2008, 06:58:55 PM
/thread win
Post by: OzPrime on July 20, 2008, 06:59:37 PM
I don't know where this perception came from that E3 is targeted only at the mainstream press. It's targeted at the gaming world, period, which means all gamers and gaming press alike.
It's funny, Sony and Microsoft didn't have any trouble accomodating both casual and traditional games in their presentations. Obviously their focus is more on traditional gamers, sure, but they made an effort to reach out to both.
The closest thing I've ever seen to the mainstream press covering E3 was usually business news channels and brief mentions in general news websites- nothing deep mind you, just a news blurb, that's all.
Quote
Silks, what size kevlar do you wear?QuoteHave you seen the suit that Iron Man wears?
Uhhhh.... *orders my Oompa Loompas to work faster* Um, it's a perk that comes with being a Prime. Long story, don't ask...
Post by: ShyGuy on July 20, 2008, 10:16:09 PM
I think some Nintendo hardcore fanboy in 2005 wished for Nintendo to be number one this generation, and it blew up in their face.
Post by: Shift Key on July 21, 2008, 06:05:48 AM
I'll certainly get flamed for this, but I'll say it anyways: I no longer consider the Wii a "gamer's console" because as time goes on, there are less and less "gamer's games" for it.
Wow, way to sound like a pretentious arsehole. Is this like the whole "serious games" remark, because I'm getting the feeling that you're doing this for shits and giggles.
I get it - people didn't like Nintendo because there was little in it for the rabid Nintendo fans. I remember those days fondly, eating up the quality first party games. But what right do you have outside your narrow opinion to say that the Wii is no longer for people who like games? Lapsed gamers, non-core gamers, casual gamers, or whatever derogatory remarks they decide to use. They like games too. But I'll bet its not the same games you like. And the fact that you're bitter about it shows that it is these people who are the growth markets for the industry.
I'm glad that the big 3 are looking outside the core gamers (Microsoft's game about swatting things with an eye-toy like device, that was for gamers like you, right?) because video games might be something that you enjoy passionately (or whatever goes on behind closed doors) but they're not fighting for your attention - they're fighting for people coming into the market. If they shared your mindset (cater to the hardcore gamers only) then it would be a bleak market.
Basically, what Morari said except for badmouthing red meat.
Like D_Average said, if you think that Nintendo is going to suddenly do a 180 and release a ton of new IPs aimed at gaming purists, you're kidding yourself.
Hah, gaming purists. What a stupid remark. You sound like that guy on the driving range telling me my technique is wrong. What he doesn't understand is that I'm not a serious golfer and don't have an interest in hitting the ball further. I'm only there to hit some balls and drink some beer (and then do a Happy Gilmore and get kicked out, it was an awesome night).
Hyping an event is something all companies do, and it is odd that people are putting so much attention on Nintendo's conference when basically every publisher/developer out there treated E3 like a minor event.
I hate to quote GP when she's right on the money. I really do. But everyone else seems to be standing on their own soapboxes assuming E3 is still relevant. The sooner they get this through their thick heads, the better. Read it again.
As has been said 100 times by now. Reggie said wait till e3 the core gamers will be greatly pleased.
Sounds like you've never been disappointed before in your life. Go outside.
Instead of coming to the show with some teasers and straight talk for their long-term fans, Nintendo played semantics at E3. They treated us like idiots with their pathetic diversionary tactics.
This just shows that E3 is no longer the showpiece of the gaming calendar for Nintendo. Were Sony and MS guilty of the same tactics?
Disclaimer: I no longer consider myself one of these "hardcore gamers" you guys speak about. I just enjoy highlighting the absurdity in other people's viewpoints. Flame away, the next most-powerful console I have is a PS2 and that's gathering dust.
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 21, 2008, 08:35:29 AM
Post by: BigJim on July 21, 2008, 10:01:48 AM
Does Nintendo cater to both audiences? Yes. The problem is that Nintendo is just 1 company and the 3rd parties have not shown up to adequately complete the lineup with their AAA's. Therefore, it's within reason for some hardcore gamers to be tired of twiddling their thumbs in between the occasional releases that they care about.
It's not what Nintendo's doing. It's what they aren't doing. They can make casual games out the wazoo for all anybody really cares. The argument is they're not able to release enough hardcore games on their own to keep up with the demand.
If a casual gamer were to complain about the same thing (not enough Wii Sports/Wii Fit/Wii Whatever titles) then they very well could have a valid opinion as well too.
Point being, jack of all trades, master of none. Nintendo just isn't doing an exceptional job doing everything themselves in the face of lackadaisical 3rd party support. And people can only keep saying "They're coming. Wait for it. Wait for it. Wait for it" for so many years until they just have to accept that the counter opinion may have a point.
The other problem is that the vast majority of "hardcore" games have been sequels, many of which are just plain uninspired. Animal Crossing merely being the latest example. If you can call that a hardcore game.
Ultimately the onus is on Nintendo to manage their platform. 3rd parties haven't jumped on guns blazing, and so until Nintendo adequately manages it all, the debate has merit. Unfortunately for gamers, Nintendo isn't going to change because they are doing exactly what they want to do. Their platform is all about their IPs at their schedule.
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on July 21, 2008, 12:03:52 PM
Dang casual steak-eaters are ruining it for the rest of us.
Post by: NWR_Lindy on July 21, 2008, 12:31:02 PM
Post by: Morari on July 21, 2008, 01:07:35 PM
Post by: Ian Sane on July 21, 2008, 05:08:38 PM
Quote
Wow, see I struck a chord with this one.... I really don't think Nintendo has abandoned hardcore gaming. They may be switching gears with a stronger approach at casual gaming, but they are still going to churn out the same epic franchises they always have. Occasionally we'll get something new out of them (see Disaster and Cpt. Rainbow), but for the most part they are content channeling their "new IP energy" so to say, towards the casual market.
To me what you just described would be my definition of abandoning gamers ("hardcore gamers" are guys who beat world record scores in Pac-Man; if the new market is non-gamers then we're just gamers). "Churn[ing[ out the same epic franchises" while "channeling their 'new IP energy' towards the casual market" sounds like going through the motions to me. It sounds like a token effort and that's crap. That's taking their fans for granted. That's what the concern was years ago. That's why I can't stand it when someone tries to pretend that the N64 era was worse. No it wasn't because despite third party support problems at least then 100% of Nintendo's games were targetted at gamers (pretty much the only market at the time) and they were passionate about it. When playing those games you could feel the pride Nintendo had in making them. Mario Kart Wii in comparison feels like just a product with the same "token effort" that a Madden game would have.
And I don't get these accusations of whining. Whining is going on and on about something that is only of minor annoyance and can be easily fixed. If you go on and on about a movie you wanted to see being sold out on opening night you are whining. Because in the end you'll see that movie a few days later. Within days that bummer will have no effect on your life.
This is different. Anyone on this forum obviously has a serious interest in videogames and in Nintendo. It's a hobby. Having a hobby stolen away from you sucks. That doesn't ruin your life but it sure as hell affects it. That is worth complaining about. That happened to me with the WWF. They started to focus on a new audience back in 1998 and slowly transformed into something I didn't like at all. And they changed the whole industry in the process; they bought the competitors and a new competitor just aped the same formula. Nothing exists anymore like what made me a fan in the first place. That sucks. Now my life goes on and I have other interests but it still bugs me. It's an interest and a hobby I could still have but I can't because the hobby squeezed me out. Now it's happening with my videogame hobby.
We have every right to complain because we're losing our hobby. Nintendo doesn't owe us in the way they have to cater to our every whim but we're customers. Our financial support is the reason Nintendo is even in the videogame business. "Oh it's just a business!" Just because someone is allowed to use you doesn't mean it's right. Businesses, governments, employers, and even close friends, spouses, girlfriends/boyfriends and family can use you up and drop you like a hot potato but that doesn't make it right and it doesn't make you a whiner for pointing it out. Nintendo and its fans have a business/customer relationship. Nintendo is no longer pulling their weight in that relationship and we the customers have every right to complain.
Honestly I think those that call us whiners give me the vibe as the sort of people that aren't bothered by something unless it directly affects them. It's the people who like Nintendogs and are interested in Wii Music that accuse us of whining. In other words they're the ones who aren't affected and don't care that anyone else is.
Post by: Ceric on July 21, 2008, 06:51:48 PM
I would liken this to if Movies started catering towards a new crowd. The artsy crowd. So no those Action-flicks like Ironman or Batman are no longer made but, the touchy feelly dramatic things that dominate the artsy world would be.
Though that is not the case. There is a true balance. Problem with games are there isn't a true balance. Artsy films seem to have reached a point where they are coming out at a frequent enough bases and level of quality to appease a large majority of that fanbase. Its not so on games. Even on the PS3 which is more hardcore I see things like Fallout 3 being what people are looking towards and waiting... and waiting... and waiting....
Post by: Morari on July 21, 2008, 11:58:41 PM
Films should be more artistic. That would definitely be an improvement in the overall marketplace. As it is, you either have mindless action or the aforementioned wanna-be indies that are all about "quirky" characters coming to terms with their feelings. Both ways are lame and truly good films are still rare. Just like books and videogames, the majority of what's released will quite simply be junk.
Post by: D_Average on July 22, 2008, 11:36:25 AM
Obviously, Nintendo is still working on games that traditional gamers will enjoy. And I understand why they didn't have much to show of such games at E3. They just released some very big titles and may not be ready to show the follow-ups at this time. All of that is perfectly understandable.
The problem with this E3 is that Nintendo didn't acknowledge any of these problems. What we have here is a failure to communicate. Nintendo not only ignored the traditional gamer at this show, they refused to answer any of our questions and diverted all complaints to Animal Crossing as a huge title that Joe Gamer should get excited for. Sorry, I'm not interested in your rehashed N64 collect-a-thon. You already released that one back on the GameCube... when we called it a casual game.
Instead of coming to the show with some teasers and straight talk for their long-term fans, Nintendo played semantics at E3. They treated us like idiots with their pathetic diversionary tactics. Do you know why people clapped at Miyamoto's Pikmin confirmation? It's not because Pikmin is so beloved (it's really not) but because finally someone at Nintendo gave a straight answer to the traditional gamers. At least, that's why I was clapping.
Hey Jonny, just thought you should know that Steven Totilo TOTALLY ripped off your reply to this thread and made an entire story out of it! Who knew that he'd been trolling our forums?
"Nintendo And Its E3 Fans: A Failure To Communicate"
http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/07/22/nintendo-and-its-e3-fans/#more-5687 (http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/07/22/nintendo-and-its-e3-fans/#more-5687)
Post by: BigJim on July 22, 2008, 03:42:42 PM
Post by: NWR_Lindy on July 22, 2008, 05:38:21 PM
All I'm asking for is Nintendo to actually put some EFFORT into something other than casual games. Making Mario 10 or Zelda 15 or Fire Emblem 6 isn't effort to me, but rather the Madden-izing of those franchises. "Give them the same thing year after year, we barely have to tweak the formula and they'll still buy it!" Thanks, Big N.
Post by: vudu on July 31, 2008, 03:08:40 PM
I've given Nintendo hundreds upon hundreds of dollars for their product. In return, they give me games that I'm not remotely interested in.
Actually, Nintendo gave you the games and consoles you purchased for "hundreds upon hundreds of dollars". The company's obligation to you ended after the warranty period for your purchases expired.
If you want to continue to give Nintendo money, be my guest. If they come out with a game that interests you, by all means buy it. But don't whine about games that you aren't paying for.
OFF-TOPIC: Silks, I'd really like to see a blog post by you about recent Nintendo games that you do like and future games that excite you. Answer this question: why do you still work at NWR when you don't like Nintendo games anymore?
Post by: D_Average on July 31, 2008, 04:06:13 PM
I've given Nintendo hundreds upon hundreds of dollars for their product. In return, they give me games that I'm not remotely interested in.
Actually, Nintendo gave you the games and consoles you purchased for "hundreds upon hundreds of dollars". The company's obligation to you ended after the warranty period for your purchases expired.
If you want to continue to give Nintendo money, be my guest. If they come out with a game that interests you, by all means buy it. But don't whine about games that you aren't paying for.
I disagree. Purchasing a console is a major purchase, its basically a membership or subscription fee. Nobody purchases a console for the mere console itself, but they purchase it in the hopes they'll have many great games to spend additional $$$ on.
Post by: vudu on July 31, 2008, 04:09:15 PM
I disagree. Purchasing a console is a major purchase, its basically a membership or subscription fee. Nobody purchases a console for the mere console itself, but they purchase it in the hopes they'll have many great games to spend additional $$$ on.
When he says "hundreds upon hundreds of dollars" I think it's obvious he's referring to his long history of purchasing video games, not just the Wii.
Besides, considering he spent 2.5 times as much on his PS3 than he did on his Wii, it's a moot point unless he owns 2.5 times as many PS3 games (more, if you consider the fact that PS3 games cost 20% more than Wii games).
Post by: D_Average on July 31, 2008, 05:05:51 PM
I disagree. Purchasing a console is a major purchase, its basically a membership or subscription fee. Nobody purchases a console for the mere console itself, but they purchase it in the hopes they'll have many great games to spend additional $$$ on.
When he says "hundreds upon hundreds of dollars" I think it's obvious he's referring to his long history of purchasing video games, not just the Wii.
Besides, considering he spent 2.5 times as much on his PS3 than he did on his Wii, it's a moot point unless he owns 2.5 times as many PS3 games (more, if you consider the fact that PS3 games cost 20% more than Wii games).
Either way, a company should deliver great games should you invest in their console. I think we can all agree that those who picked up the Virtual Boy day one got screwed, even this nice little lady.
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1191/944214296_21f45a2efe.jpg?v=1185748794)
Post by: DAaaMan64 on July 31, 2008, 05:11:18 PM
Post by: vudu on July 31, 2008, 05:20:33 PM
Also, Silks probably already owns more Wii games than most Wii owners will during the entire life of the system.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 31, 2008, 05:42:21 PM
No court would rule that Nintendo owes you anything for owning a Wii but from the perspective of anyone who actually knows about videogames it's pretty cut and dry. You buy the console you assume there will be worthwhile games for it for a couple of years.
A computer is the same type of investment. It's just that these days it's not so risky as there aren't a dozen different formats that you hope will remain supported.
Besides when anyone evers says that Nintendo owes them something they obviously mean from a non-legal perspective. Just because you and Nintendo don't have a contract doesn't mean you can't complain if they suddenly neglect you. While it is certainly not illegal for a company to turn its back on its fan that doesn't make it okay. My best friend could also one day just snub me and kick me to the curb despite over ten years of friendship. He would still be a jerk for doing so. Ditto Nintendo.
Post by: D_Average on July 31, 2008, 06:08:46 PM
Of course consoles are investments. You buy it under the assumption it will have a steady release of games you like. When buying a console that's something a smart shopper takes into account.
No court would rule that Nintendo owes you anything for owning a Wii but from the perspective of anyone who actually knows about videogames it's pretty cut and dry. You buy the console you assume there will be worthwhile games for it for a couple of years.
A computer is the same type of investment. It's just that these days it's not so risky as there aren't a dozen different formats that you hope will remain supported.
Besides when anyone evers says that Nintendo owes them something they obviously mean from a non-legal perspective. Just because you and Nintendo don't have a contract doesn't mean you can't complain if they suddenly neglect you. While it is certainly not illegal for a company to turn its back on its fan that doesn't make it okay. My best friend could also one day just snub me and kick me to the curb despite over ten years of friendship. He would still be a jerk for doing so. Ditto Nintendo.
Exactly!
Post by: NWR_Lindy on July 31, 2008, 09:29:45 PM
OFF-TOPIC: Silks, I'd really like to see a blog post by you about recent Nintendo games that you do like and future games that excite you. Answer this question: why do you still work at NWR when you don't like Nintendo games anymore?
OK, you got it. I'll crank this out when I have some time.
And I actually have 19 Wii games.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 31, 2008, 09:31:45 PM
OFF-TOPIC: Silks, I'd really like to see a blog post by you about recent Nintendo games that you do like and future games that excite you. Answer this question: why do you still work at NWR when you don't like Nintendo games anymore?
OK, you got it. I'll crank this out when I have some time.
And I actually have 19 Wii games.
I have over double the games you have for Wii, so Me > You. I'll be interested in reading this blog post when it debuts in 2010.
Post by: NWR_Lindy on July 31, 2008, 09:36:59 PM
[I have over double the games you have for Wii, so Me > You. I'll be interested in reading this blog post when it debuts in 2010.
Sweet Jesus, you have 40 Wii games? I bet you can take about 20 of those and make your own little play fort of mediocrity.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 31, 2008, 10:06:07 PM
[I have over double the games you have for Wii, so Me > You. I'll be interested in reading this blog post when it debuts in 2010.
Sweet Jesus, you have 40 Wii games? I bet you can take about 20 of those and make your own little play fort of mediocrity.
Bug Island > You
Post by: D_Average on August 01, 2008, 12:13:52 AM
OFF-TOPIC: Silks, I'd really like to see a blog post by you about recent Nintendo games that you do like and future games that excite you. Answer this question: why do you still work at NWR when you don't like Nintendo games anymore?
OK, you got it. I'll crank this out when I have some time.
And I actually have 19 Wii games.
I have over double the games you have for Wii, so Me > You. I'll be interested in reading this blog post when it debuts in 2010.
Something tells me you're one of the 3 people who bought "Balls of Fury".
Post by: NWR_insanolord on August 01, 2008, 12:29:01 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on August 01, 2008, 12:30:32 AM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 01, 2008, 01:00:43 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on August 01, 2008, 03:19:48 AM
Post by: Plugabugz on August 01, 2008, 03:25:27 AM
In other words you people are out of touch with the others who evaluate a thing called "value"?
These people have proved that the credit crunch is a myth.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 01, 2008, 03:47:36 AM
In other words you people are out of touch with the others who evaluate a thing called "value"?
These people have proved that the credit crunch is a myth.
Where can I get this breakfast cereal?
Post by: Plugabugz on August 01, 2008, 05:20:39 AM
Post by: KnowsNothing on August 01, 2008, 09:49:58 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on August 01, 2008, 12:05:51 PM
And then someone has 52?! FIFTY F*CKING TWO?!!
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on August 01, 2008, 12:20:01 PM
Post by: D_Average on August 01, 2008, 12:56:35 PM
Post by: Ian Sane on August 01, 2008, 01:00:28 PM
In short even if I could afford (well I could I guess if I wanted to skimp on other luxuries) all the games I wanted I couldn't imagine owning so many for one system in such a short period of time.
Post by: NWR_Lindy on August 01, 2008, 06:21:37 PM
No wonder these "Nintendo has abandoned core gamers" arguments don't make you guys blink, your standards are so low you don't relate.
LOL I can't help but agree, Ian. Even at 19 games I feel like I'm stretching it. In fact, I'm thinking of trading in Excitetruck, Trauma Center: Second Opinion, and Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz because I'll simply never play them again, and really never should have bought them in the first place.
Fifty-two games is astounding to me, GP. Heck, I can't even think of that many Wii games worth owning even when you combine Retail, WiiWare, and Virtual Console.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on August 01, 2008, 06:26:19 PM
No wonder these "Nintendo has abandoned core gamers" arguments don't make you guys blink, your standards are so low you don't relate.
LOL I can't help but agree, Ian. Even at 19 games I feel like I'm stretching it. In fact, I'm thinking of trading in Excitetruck, Trauma Center: Second Opinion, and Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz because I'll simply never play them again, and really never should have bought them in the first place.
Fifty-two games is astounding to me, GP. Heck, I can't even think of that many Wii games worth owning even when you combine Retail, WiiWare, and Virtual Console.
Understandable, most are lacking in shooting aliens and seeing shiny objects.
Post by: NWR_insanolord on August 01, 2008, 08:43:02 PM
Heck, I can't even think of that many Wii games worth owning even when you combine Retail, WiiWare, and Virtual Console.
If you factor WiiWare and VC into it I have over 100 Wii games.
Post by: D_Average on August 01, 2008, 09:59:11 PM
Post by: NWR_Lindy on August 01, 2008, 10:43:39 PM
Understandable, most are lacking in shooting aliens and seeing shiny objects.
Nah, I was more thinking they're lacking in the "quality game worth owning" department.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 01, 2008, 11:33:35 PM
Post by: NWR_Lindy on August 02, 2008, 10:01:49 AM
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on August 02, 2008, 05:54:53 PM
Quote
If we look at the Wii thus far we have a fairly solid collection of titles from Nintendo all geared to satiate the Nintendo "hardcore" crowd. We have seen Zelda, Mario, Metroid, Smash Bros, Battalion Wars, Fire Emblem, Mario Kart, Paper Mario, and Wario Ware on the Wii already. We also know that Nintendo is working on Disaster, Wario Land, Pikmin, Animal Crossing, a new Mario and a new Zelda. Are there really that many franchises they have missed?
I take issue with this part because their new reiterations of old franchises are not really holding up as well as the older ones did, except for maybe like one. It's tough to be hardcore about Nintendo's core titles when they're just getting dumber.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on August 02, 2008, 06:13:54 PM
I was responding to GP's inferral that I don't like any game that doesn't involve shooting aliens and shiny objects. It's not that at all, it's just that there's no way I'd every buy many of the games on her list.
Once again we are delving into taste, I personally think it is ludicrous you suggest that you can't find that many Wii games to own even WITH Virtual Console. There are some true classics on Virtual Console and they aren't worth owning by people?
Post by: KDR_11k on August 03, 2008, 02:45:47 AM
I take issue with this part because their new reiterations of old franchises are not really holding up as well as the older ones did, except for maybe like one. It's tough to be hardcore about Nintendo's core titles when they're just getting dumber.
How so? The ones I played, TP and SMG, did improve on their predecessors.
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on August 03, 2008, 03:25:52 AM
This is how I see the hardcore Nintendo fan: the kind of guy that digs the N64 & GC's great games, which are mostly multiplayer games with a lot of hidden subtleties (Mario Kart, Smash, GoldenEye, and also 3rd party stuff like Bomberman and even stuff like Hexen [lol]) and some occasional single player stuff like the Marios, Zeldas, Metroids. Also, the older folks that loved the freakin' ROBUST libraries of the NES and SNES.
I mean, Nintendo was the best at making great multiplayer games 5-10 years ago and it just eats me up inside that they're not delivering much of that kind of content anymore when they're pretty much the best at it. Like, I look at the Wii library, and I see casual stuff like Wii sports and Fit and beer pong or whatever, a lot of shovelware and ports, and old console roms. I really do think they've shifted their target demographic from anything resembling a serious gamer to old, out-of-touch people (gamers?).
Post by: KDR_11k on August 03, 2008, 04:43:10 AM
One thing that has changed a lot since the NES is this: In the NES days you turned the thing on, hit start and within seconds you were shooting aliens, nazis or whatever the evil guys in your game are. Now it's all intro-intro-intro and you need savegames to start playing at any semi-interesting part instead of a boring, slow tutorial.
Which is it with Brawl and Kart, no improvement or a downfall? Improvements shrink with every iteration of a concept as there's less and less that needs improving. A reduction in quality would be something different.
Then again there are many things in Wii Sports people don't notice easily.
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on August 03, 2008, 05:22:53 AM
Quote
Improvements shrink with every iteration of a concept as there's less and less that needs improving. A reduction in quality would be something different.
Mario Kart 64 was the best (console) Mario Kart. Brawl, to me, only seems just a little better than melee since the online and final smash features basically sucked. I bet it could be a lot better if they reworked those things a bit.
Quote
One thing that has changed a lot since the NES is this: In the NES days you turned the thing on, hit start and within seconds you were shooting aliens, nazis or whatever the evil guys in your game are. Now it's all intro-intro-intro and you need savegames to start playing at any semi-interesting part instead of a boring, slow tutorial.
Yeah. I also hate this. I've been playing XBLA games a lot more than I thought I would be and I think this is one of the reasons. I'd probably be playing Wii download content too if it was half as good.
Post by: NWR_Lindy on August 03, 2008, 10:22:37 AM
Once again we are delving into taste, I personally think it is ludicrous you suggest that you can't find that many Wii games to own even WITH Virtual Console. There are some true classics on Virtual Console and they aren't worth owning by people?
I can't give Nintendo any credit for Virtual Console outside of Sin & Punishment, since that's the only VC game that required any notable new effort to get over here that I actually care about. But since you're looking for a number, here are the games that I think are "purchasable" (i.e. not a total waste of cash):
Nintendo Entertainment System (34)
Legend of Zelda
Solomon's Key
Ice Hockey
Super Mario Bros.
Gradius
Kid Icarus
Kirby's Adventure
Tecmo Bowl
Excitebike
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
Galaga
Punch-Out!!
Castlevania
Mighty Bomb Jack
Ninja Gaiden
Pac-Man
Milon's Secret Castle
Zelda II: The Adventure of Link
Lode Runner
Super Mario Bros. 2
Metroid
Super C
Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels
Ninja Gaiden II: The Dark Sword of Chaos
Castlevania II: Simon's Quest
Super Mario Bros. 3
Ghosts 'n Goblins
Blades of Steel
Bubble Bobble
StarTropics Nintendo
Ninja Gaiden III: The Ancient Ship of Doom
River City Ransom
Double Dragon
Sky Kid
Super Nintendo Entertainment System (25)
F-Zero Nintendo
SimCity Nintendo
Street Fighter II: The World Warrior
Super Castlevania IV
R·Type III: The Third Lightning
Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Contra III: The Alien Wars
Super Mario World
Donkey Kong Country
Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts
Gradius III
Legend of the Mystical Ninja
Final Fight
Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest
ActRaiser
Street Fighter II Turbo: Hyper Fighting
Super Metroid
Breath of Fire II
Axelay
Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble!
Super Street Fighter II: The New Challengers
Harvest Moon
Super Turrican
DoReMi Fantasy: Milon's DokiDoki Adventure
Super R-Type
Nintendo 64 (11)
Super Mario 64
Mario Kart 64
Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
Star Fox 64
F-Zero X
Paper Mario
Wave Race 64
Yoshi's Story
Sin & Punishment
1080° Snowboarding
Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards
Sega Master System (1)
Alex Kidd in Miracle World
Sega Genesis (35)
Altered Beast
Sonic the Hedgehog
Ecco the Dolphin
Golden Axe
Columns
Ristar
Gunstar Heroes
Space Harrier II
ToeJam & Earl
Streets of Rage
Sword of Vermilion
Beyond Oasis
Alex Kidd in the Enchanted Castle
Virtua Fighter 2
Wonder Boy in Monster World
Streets of Rage 2
ToeJam & Earl in Panic on Funkotron
Golden Axe II
Sonic the Hedgehog 2
Ecco: The Tides of Time
Shining Force
Shining in the Darkness
Shinobi III: Return of the Ninja Master
Ghouls 'n Ghosts
Sonic the Hedgehog 3
Super Thunder Blade
Streets of Rage 3
Golden Axe III
Rolling Thunder 2
Columns III: Revenge of Columns
Phantasy Star II
Puyo Puyo 2
Mega Turrican
Phantasy Star III: Generations of Doom
Gley Lancer
TurboGrafx-16/TurboGrafx-CD (17)
Bomberman '93
Bonk's Adventure
Super Star Soldier
Alien Crush
Military Madness
R-Type
Bonk's Revenge
Battle Lode Runner
Ninja Spirit
Blazing Lazers
Devil's Crush
Galaga '90
Neutopia
Bonk III: Bonk's Big Adventure
Neutopia II
Gate of Thunder
Lords of Thunder
Neo Geo (4)
Baseball Stars 2
King of Fighters '94
Samurai Shodown
King of the Monsters
TOTAL: 127 + SILKS' GAMES (20) = 147
So there you go GP, I think that there are 147 individual games worth playing on the Wii. But if you're giving Nintendo a pat on the back for making you pay five bucks for a game they released 23 years ago, I suggest you rethink that position.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on August 03, 2008, 02:42:42 PM
Quote
So there you go GP, I think that there are 147 individual games worth playing on the Wii. But if you're giving Nintendo a pat on the back for making you pay five bucks for a game they released 23 years ago, I suggest you rethink that position.
You are the one that stated that about VC games not worth owning, you said nothing about the "effort" being put into porting them. So please if you are going to make ridiculous statements at least qualify what you mean by them. I know I sure as heck didn't say anything about Nintendo deserving a pat on the back for releasing them.
Post by: NWR_Lindy on August 03, 2008, 07:19:58 PM
I think VC is cool bonus content, but I don't count it as part of the Wii library, really. Yes, you can play it on Wii, but it's back catalog. I'm not giving 360 or PS3 any props for what they're doing with Xbox and PS2/PS1 games either. Like I said, it's cool extra content, but it's not what I'm buying any of these systems for.
Post by: NWR_Lindy on August 03, 2008, 09:24:25 PM
I have over double the games you have for Wii, so Me > You. I'll be interested in reading this blog post when it debuts in 2010.
Looks like 2010 just arrived.
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/blogArt.cfm?artid=16519 (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/blogArt.cfm?artid=16519)
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on August 04, 2008, 05:58:57 PM
If you were hardcore you'd own the cartridges >:(
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on August 04, 2008, 06:58:55 PM
Yes. A giant ass list of roms. A great way to make a point in any thread. Because $5-$10 Roms count as Wii games.
If you were hardcore you'd own the cartridges >:(
For some reason I don't believe I made that statement. It was Lindy who said there aren't any VC games worth owning that total over 50 INCLUDING Wii games. Funny how that works when one person makes an asinine statement and someone else grips onto it like somehow the original post said anything about that. I said NOTHING about VC games until Lindy brought it up to make his exaggerated point.
Post by: NWR_Lindy on August 04, 2008, 07:10:50 PM
I said NOTHING about VC games until Lindy brought it up to make his exaggerated point.
I'm all about exaggerated points. "Wii will signal the end of the gaming industry." DEBATE
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on August 04, 2008, 07:18:13 PM
I said NOTHING about VC games until Lindy brought it up to make his exaggerated point.
I'm all about exaggerated points. "Wii will signal the end of the gaming industry." DEBATE
Yep, glad you admit it. ;)
Post by: vudu on August 04, 2008, 07:20:03 PM
I'm all about exaggerated points. "Wii will signal the end of the gaming industry, and the rebirth of the entertainment industry." DEBATE
Debate, indeed.
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on August 04, 2008, 08:42:07 PM
But I'd like to get back on track and mention how skeptical I am of this:
Quote
Obviously, Nintendo is still working on games that traditional gamers will enjoy.I hope it's Mario Kart Wii: Good Edition and GoldenEye for xbox live
Post by: KDR_11k on August 05, 2008, 02:58:31 AM
Yes. A giant ass list of roms. A great way to make a point in any thread. Because $5-$10 Roms count as Wii games.
If you were hardcore you'd own the cartridges >:(
So hardcore creds require neing old enough to buy loads of games back when the NES was out? Buying these games on flea markets now costs more than grabbing the download and you don't even get the ability to suspend the game.
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on August 05, 2008, 05:43:39 AM
Yes. A giant ass list of roms. A great way to make a point in any thread. Because $5-$10 Roms count as Wii games.
If you were hardcore you'd own the cartridges >:(
So hardcore creds require neing old enough to buy loads of games back when the NES was out? Buying these games on flea markets now costs more than grabbing the download and you don't even get the ability to suspend the game.
It doesn't cost more where I live, or on ebay, unless you're after a freak game I guess
Post by: KDR_11k on August 05, 2008, 07:43:55 AM
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on August 05, 2008, 11:38:33 AM
Post by: NWR_Lindy on August 05, 2008, 08:55:37 PM
