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NWR Interactive => TalkBack => Topic started by: Yoshidious on July 11, 2008, 06:00:11 PM

Title: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Yoshidious on July 11, 2008, 06:00:11 PM
Feature: Whither Now, Samus Aran (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/specialArt.cfm?artid=16314)

This is where you can discuss our ideas for the future of the Metroid franchise or tell the world about your ideal future for Samus and the Metroid franchise.

(http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/media/0/1/412.jpg)
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Crimm on July 11, 2008, 06:52:38 PM
I want to personally thank Zach, Jonny, and especially Greg for their work on what I maintain is one of the best features this site has ever produced. 
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Kairon on July 11, 2008, 07:03:53 PM
Awesome feature. Great reads. And surprisingly serious and dedicated... I need to get out of the forums more and onto the site proper!

Oh, but I must chime in with a tidbit to frame any possible discussions about Metroid Prime 3 sales. Corruption sold 1.31 million units worldwide as of March 2008 according to a Nintendo release. That's not as much as Metroid Prime 1, but like Johnny said MP1 numbers were somewhat inflated via pack-ins. MP3 still sold significantly over a million units and there's tons of companies who'd love to have that problem on their hands.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 11, 2008, 07:05:34 PM
I'll have to read it tonight. Someone ruined my idea of submitting it to GoNintendo though because it was already there! Too bad no one will be able to read it there. :(
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Crimm on July 11, 2008, 07:14:29 PM
I'll have to read it tonight. Someone ruined my idea of submitting it to GoNintendo though because it was already there!

...no way.

...unreal.  They could at least have said the name of the site in their blurb   :-\
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: vudu on July 11, 2008, 07:44:58 PM
I just finished RFN 96--recorded way back on April 21--where this feature was first mentioned.  As Crimm and Greg were talking about it I kept thinking to myself "Did I miss this?  How could that be?".  Glad to see you guys are as timely as ever (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/specialArt.cfm?artid=15736).  ;)
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Crimm on July 11, 2008, 07:48:42 PM
Being Features Editor is hard  :'(
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 11, 2008, 08:44:47 PM
Two whole people responded at GoNintendo, and even they more than likely couldn't read it. Sad.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: ShyGuy on July 11, 2008, 08:55:26 PM
Hey Crimm, have you ever contacted Rawmeat?
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Smoke39 on July 11, 2008, 10:18:31 PM
I'm skeptical of Greg's power/zero suit switching idea.  Not the concept itself, I suppose, so much as the justification.  You make it sound like Samus is clumsy or inagile while wearing her power suit, which isn't the case at all.  Asside from sinking in water, Samus has always been perfectly agile in her suit.  If she can't defeat a certain enemy yet, why not just run (as she does when encountering the SA-X in Fusion)?  Or if she has to be sneaky, why would she purposefully shed her suit and make herself more vulnerable to attack in the event that she gets caught?

Also, I think Zach's Halo-esque, squad-based FPS idea is the worst idea for a Metroid game ever.  His 3D stealth idea sounded interesting to me, though.  It would be a departure to be sure, but would still retain the solitude and exploration elements of the series.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Yoshidious on July 11, 2008, 11:59:50 PM
I'm skeptical of Greg's power/zero suit switching idea.  Not the concept itself, I suppose, so much as the justification.  You make it sound like Samus is clumsy or inagile while wearing her power suit, which isn't the case at all.  Asside from sinking in water, Samus has always been perfectly agile in her suit.  If she can't defeat a certain enemy yet, why not just run (as she does when encountering the SA-X in Fusion)?  Or if she has to be sneaky, why would she purposefully shed her suit and make herself more vulnerable to attack in the event that she gets caught?

Naturally, the relative talents of Samus in both her forms would have to be carefully balanced. In terms of foot-speed, I see Zero Suit Samus as being quicker off the mark than in the Power Suit, which has always required a good head of steam to get up to full speed (culminating in the Speed Boost ability). So without the armour she'd be better able to evade enemies in tight spaces, and her weapon could once again be capable of stunning enemies that Samus cannot yet destroy with her Arm Cannon. With regard to jumping, she would not be able to jump as high or as far as in the Power Suit, but would be able to make sudden leaps/somersaults over enemies, stun them, and then run out of their range. So it's not so much that the Samus we know is clunky, rather that Zero Suit would be extremely quick while limited in other ways.

Inevitably, the reasons for Samus to shed her armour would not be seamlessly natural, anymore than having her crash land without her suit at the end of Zero Mission was. But they could be skilfully rationalised with game design and plot devices so as to make these transitions as unobtrusive as possible. For instance, the indestructible enemies could be guarding an important upgrade for the Power Suit, so she cannot simply flee, but must bypass them in order to claim the item and thus progress further. A story device could be something like she's infiltrating an area with sensors that can detect the energy signature of the suit, and therefore must go in without it, evading detection until she can deactivate the sensors. These are obviously just a few simple examples, many many more could be conceived of; the key is to weave them into the game design adroitly so they do not seem overly contrived.

But ultimately the point of my piece is that Samus would be less powerful outside of the suit, hence the sensation of empowerment that comes when she is able to activate it once more and enjoy the ability to move around and destroy enemies relatively unfettered. Over time the Zero Suit form could gain more and more abilities to become useful outside of the specifically crafted areas, but she would remain significantly more constrained outside of the armour than inside it.   
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Morari on July 12, 2008, 12:34:32 AM
His 3D stealth idea sounded interesting to me, though.  It would be a departure to be sure, but would still retain the solitude and exploration elements of the series.

Blizzard thought that as well, until StarCraft: Ghost was canceled...
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: SixthAngel on July 12, 2008, 01:08:27 AM
So because a new Metroid game isn't announced for the first e3 after Corruption an article about Metroid possibly dying or going through a drastic overhall is made?  I appreciate a feature about such a big franchise but why the random doom and gloom?

I wouldn't even call it oft neglected.  It was neglected once, during the N64 era.  There has been Metroid games released for every other console and handheld as well as two for the Gamecube followed by one in the very first year of the Wii.  After the game being released not even a year ago Samus is now in her usual cameo in Smash Bros.  Metroid isn't going away and they aren't going to release a new one every year either because that is not how Nintendo does big franchises.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Enner on July 12, 2008, 04:01:52 AM
Ditto that, SixthAngel. After an absence on N64, we have almost a half a dozen games spread out between GCN, WII, GBA, and NDS. I think the Metroid franchise is at a well-deserved rest.

However, I do share the bit of worry on where the franchise should go next in gameplay and story.
I think having a prequel into Samus' time with or after living with the Chozo on Zebes would be a worthy installment in terms of story. Though, seeing as how there would be disgust at turning the series into more of a shooter than it already is, it makes me wonder if there is any tolerance for the next Metroid to be lacking or absent of its trademark gameplay themes of exploration and adventure.

As for Leahy's idea of switching between the Power Suit and the Zero Suit for gameplay, I rather like it very much. However, I wonder how that can be worked in to the fiction of the series. Disregarding the disturbingly quick change from Power to Zero on Samus' gunship in the Zero Mission cutscene, I'd like to think it takes great effort to change between the two suits (if Brawl is to be taken as an accurate representation). Samus just can't slip out of the Power Suit in a hostile area and risk the suit being taken or getting very, very dirty. You certainly can't make Samus go back to her ship to slip in and out of the Power Suit as that would greatly slow down the game (a game known to encourage speed runs). Having the ship come to you is a viable alternative.
Of course, there is the obvious option of switching between the two different suits at the press of a button or menu press. Storywise, it doesn't quite sit well with me that a suit that has such a god-like capacity for offensive and defensive power can be turned on and off like a reversible jacket. Then again, should the story matter, especially for a suit that can turn into a relatively small ball and carry hundreds of missles and gadgets and especially if it gets in the way of gameplay? We are playing games, of course, and not stories! (Insert cheap "Or are we?" here.)

This is what I find interesting about sequels: how and how much they are a sequel in terms of gameplay and story. Each time it gives me a chance to think about which is more important in the game series and in general.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Halbred on July 12, 2008, 04:18:33 AM
I should add that, according to the Metroid e-Manga (and Corruption), Samus' suit can materialize and dematerialize seemingly at will. This aspect could be more thoroughly explored in the 2D "early life of Samus" games I submitted.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Dasmos on July 12, 2008, 04:23:35 AM
To be honest, I hated this feature. I'm steadily losing faith that this site can produce anything in the form of an editiorial or feature that isn't complete trash.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: GregLover5000 on July 12, 2008, 05:57:21 AM
Three simple words, people:



UBISOFT™ imagine™ Metroidz®
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 12, 2008, 09:33:37 AM
This feature is fantastic guys. A great retrospective on the series with some great insight of where we have missing bits of story in the Metroid timeline, and how we can fill those pieces in with meaningful and fresh gameplay. Both Greg and Zach's ideas would push the series into something new. I especially liked the idea of stealth Zero-Suit and the concept of switching between the Power Suit and Zero Suit. I think the Zero-Suit parts would have to be in 3rd person with the Power Suite retaining its first person perspective.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Yoshidious on July 12, 2008, 09:44:57 AM
So because a new Metroid game isn't announced for the first e3 after Corruption an article about Metroid possibly dying or going through a drastic overhall is made?  I appreciate a feature about such a big franchise but why the random doom and gloom?

I wouldn't even call it oft neglected.  It was neglected once, during the N64 era.  There has been Metroid games released for every other console and handheld as well as two for the Gamecube followed by one in the very first year of the Wii.  After the game being released not even a year ago Samus is now in her usual cameo in Smash Bros.  Metroid isn't going away and they aren't going to release a new one every year either because that is not how Nintendo does big franchises.

The intro is simply meant to raise the issue that the Metroid franchise's timely continuation is not certain in the same way as it is for Mario, Zelda, or even Animal Crossing and sub-sets of the Mario brand like Mario Kart and Mario Party. It is not meant to predict anything (that is left to the articles within), but instead provides some historical context to frame the topic.

The sense in which it can be said that Metroid has been neglected multiple times during its life: It took five years to get its first sequel, whereas other 8-bit classics (Mario, Zelda, Castlevania, Mega Man) had sequels within a couple of years on the NES. Not to mention that when it did arrive on handhelds in 1991, it didn't get another handheld game until 11 years later. Then of course there's the eight year period where no games at all were released between Super Metroid and Prime/Fusion. Perhaps more importantly though, I'd consider the four years of the DS without a true Metroid game (I own and enjoy both Metroid Prime Pinball and Hunters, but I no more conisder them true Metroid games than I do Mario Golf or Mario vs DK vis a vis Mario) to be a pretty significant case of neglect.

As for whether the franchise needs a major overhaul, personally I would be happy (if not totally ecstatic) with more of the same. However, stating my satisfaction with the series so far and asking for no change would not have been very thought-provoking as a basis for a feature, and I certainly do believe that the series would benefit from being significantly refreshed (in the right way) at this point.   
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: AV on July 12, 2008, 11:07:59 AM
i didn't see this posted until very late last night after i finished "nightly relaxation teqnuqie". I read the entire first one bit and I was exicted and very much enjoyed reading that. The 2nd part was ok but I fell asleep soon after. Not because it was boring but it was so much to read.

you guys should of released parts of this over a week. It's allot of reading and to much absorb at once.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: planetidiot on July 12, 2008, 12:05:27 PM
I'd like to see them get back to the titular metroids, honestly.  The final stage in the first Metroid was terrifying the first time you played it.  Metroids were nothing short of deadly.  In the Prime games, you shoot them a couple times and they explode.  It's become more "The Adventures of Samus and the Evil Space Pirates" more than "Metroid" anything.

Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on July 12, 2008, 12:18:05 PM
To me the suggestion that the series' name should be changed due to the removal of metroids is as ludicrous as insisting that The Legend of Zelda series name should change because it stars Link and not Zelda. Sure, it may make some logical sense, but from a marketing standpoint it's stupid and it doesn't enhance the games in any way, so why do it?
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: KDR_11k on July 12, 2008, 03:55:51 PM
Toss Metroid. The story is finished, there's nothing worth carrying over anyway (Samus is another no-personality player mirror character). Start something new, stop worrying about the old conventions and avoid fan expectations of this-or-that weapon being int he game.

As for adding stealth to Metroid, please, shoot yourself. Adding invisible lasers to enemies that pretty much mean instant death when touched is a horrible idea. Samus in a regular suit being more agile than in freaking power armor is just plain ludicrous, humans just aren't that agile and can't jump 4m high or run that fast.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on July 12, 2008, 07:02:08 PM
I'm wondering if anyone actually got to my part of the feature before they quit reading.  I addressed the issue of the Metroids themselves as well as the stagnation of the series.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Enner on July 12, 2008, 07:11:38 PM
Mm. Tossing is always a nice option. Not like there aren't enought sequels these days.

Does Zero Mission's Zero Suit stint count as stealth? Should Nintendo be shooting themselves for that?  :P

I wouldn't mind a new take on sci-fi adventure from Nintendo. Samus' occupation as a bounty hunter and mercenary had Nintendo feel the need to slip in more and more combat into the game. Maybe they could start something new with some outer space explorer or frontiersman.

Don't worry Jonny, I'm sure some people read your part. The idea of a seamless, elevator-less world for a Metroid game sounds like a nice idea, if a bit daunting. That would definitely play to the strength of the environment being a main character in Metroid games.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Maximilian on July 12, 2008, 07:16:42 PM
Nice feature, guys.  I read it all in one sitting.    :)  I'm sure Nintendo isn't finished with the Metroid series, and all three of you put forward good ideas to keep things going.  I especially like the GTA-like Zebes Jonny came up with, though I agree it isn't likely.  Despite lagging sales, the Prime series has guaranteed we'll see adventures of Samus for some time to come.  Like everyone else, I'd be really happy to see another 2D game but we'll just have to wait and see. 
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: KDR_11k on July 13, 2008, 06:03:28 AM
Does Zero Mission's Zero Suit stint count as stealth? Should Nintendo be shooting themselves for that?  :P
Yes. Worst part of the game.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Plugabugz on July 13, 2008, 11:19:39 AM
I think the biggest problem surrounding Metroid is how it's being consistently retconned. The Prime sub-series did that and still doesn't take the series forward. Fusion did however but then pretty much neutered the entire series in the process.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: GregLover5000 on July 13, 2008, 12:30:50 PM
Samus - Zero Suit + Hot Tub = SkyTown Nights: Samus in the City.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Crimm on July 13, 2008, 02:16:33 PM
Samus - Zero Suit + Hot Tub = SkyTown Nights: Samus in the City.

 :'(
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Galford on July 13, 2008, 10:00:37 PM
"As for adding stealth to Metroid, please, shoot yourself"

Thank You KDR, you were a lot nicer about saying that then I would have been...

Metroid in it's current form is spent. 
To move forward the series it would have to break out of the mold of Super Metroid.  Prime was Super Metroid as a FPS.  Metroid should as a nice 3rd person over the shoulder shooter, a la the original Metroid Prime concept. 

The ultimate 2d Metroid platformer was already made, it was called Super Metroid.  The only thing Fusion did was remind me how awesome SM was and Fusion not so much.  Fusion has a better story, that is it.

Metroid could be reinvented, but would fans play it or accept it???
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on July 13, 2008, 10:10:31 PM
A third person 3D Metroid with more emphasis on platforming and exploration would be interesting, and using the remote pointer to aim weapons would work a lot better than any targeting method a third person Metroid on the Cube could have used.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: mantidor on July 13, 2008, 10:25:55 PM
I think the biggest problem surrounding Metroid is how it's being consistently retconned. The Prime sub-series did that and still doesn't take the series forward. Fusion did however but then pretty much neutered the entire series in the process.

Nintendo has a really stubborn attitude towards story in games. I support that the focus of a game should be in other aspects of course but it wouldn't hurt to hire some writers and make a decent story, making an effort towards it wouldn't delay terribly the game and would make the experience a whole lot better.

Quote
and Nintendo would do well to take the series in a new direction now that Metroids have become extinct, and perhaps start answering a few questions about the main character.

And at the same time... NO, NO, NO!

On one side is my fear of the absolute ineptitude from Retro and Nintendo of making interesting characters and engaging stories, what they did to Samus and her universe from Zero Mission to Corruption was pretty appalling, and the other is that one of Samus coolest features is precisely the mystery behind her. This somewhat contradicts what I said before and that's why I clarified, if you don't know how to do it at least hire someone who does, writers should be as important as graphic's artists in video game development.

And stealth is awesome, so KDR is completely wrong :P the implementation in ZM was less than stellar but the atmosphere in the games is about loneliness and suspense, nothing makes that better than stealth gameplay and I would love if they actually put some effort into it. Personally the stealth in ZM seemed to me more as an excuse to get Samus naked in order to capture the loser otaku culture of Japan, the country with honestly the worst taste in games.


With all that said, I have to add that the ones who should shoot themselves is all of you whiny people who want Metroid to die. The Metroid experience is way too scarce and amazing to be calling for a rest of the series, we barely get a bad copy of it with the metroidvanias.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: KDR_11k on July 14, 2008, 03:08:41 AM
I'd be willing to accept stealth if the view areas were visible, they did damage instead of causing alerts (not enough to kill you with one hit, of course) and you can shoot everything. Except then it wouldn't be called stealth anymore. Instant loss sucks and invisible death triggers suck. There's a reason you have a life bar in Metroid, it's that you can make an error and survive.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 14, 2008, 03:34:55 AM
OK my quick thoughts on this article are the following:

The article was definitely stimulating though I cannot say I agree with everything. I personally disagree with more stealth in the Metroid series, that is like throwing stealth into Star Fox, it doesn't fit what the series has been trying to accomplish all this time. Though Greg makes a compelling argument about utilizing the Zero Suit to diversify puzzles and fighting, though I hope that is ALL it is used for. Metroid Gear Solid this is not.

Johnny brings up some great ideas about going more into the back story which has been become more prevalent as the series has evolved. Though as we know, Nintendo isn't the best story teller in the world, at least when it deals with games in a series. So hopefully someone else can take the reigns and accomplish this.

One area I do disagree with is changing the name of the series and even taking out the Metroids. The game would NOT be the same without the Metroids, not to mention that familiarity with the game title would be lost. Going back to the point about axing Metroids, throughout the series the Metroids have played a key role in Samus's life, even her people engineered them. Extinction would not be right for the series, just as extinction of familiar foes in their other games. If anything Nintendo still has room to get the Metroids more involved. They are still a fascinating enemy that we still don't know much about.

Now I know I'm in the minority but I like Samus's world coming more alive with the extra Bounty Hunters which I found to be great additions. If handled right it could add yet another layer to Samus's universe while not completely trouncing what some consider a key theme of the series, which is you being alone in a world.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: KDR_11k on July 14, 2008, 07:12:33 AM
Another argument against switching to the "zero suit": Samus already has two modes (normal and morph ball), adding more just gets confusing.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 14, 2008, 12:30:49 PM
I like Metroid Prime 3: Corruption a lot, except for the hand-holding.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Kairon on July 14, 2008, 01:01:28 PM
I, for one, REFUSE to believe that Metroids are extinct. The Universe is a big place.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: KDR_11k on July 14, 2008, 02:02:07 PM
The universe maybe but Metroids aren't capable of space flight.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: GregLover5000 on July 14, 2008, 02:49:47 PM
I, for one, REFUSE to believe that Metroids are extinct. The Universe is a big place.

Well, they could go "Jurassic Park" on us and have someone (maybe the Galactic Federation this time) splice some Metroid DNA with a bigass jellyfish to revive the species for weaponization purposes (a la Aliens). Samus could then come out of retirement to hop around the ruins of said park and lay waste to the Jellytroids.

Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: KDR_11k on July 14, 2008, 03:11:56 PM
Didn't they already pull the whole Alien 4 story in Fusion, including Samus being combined with Metroids?
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Halbred on July 14, 2008, 03:26:05 PM
Yeah, and she gained NO lasting powers as a result. Just a weakness to cold temperatures. So, really, Samus got screwed. Nintendo REALLY missed the freaking boat when it came to exploring the Metroid's lifecycle. Why weren't the Space Pirates breeding their Metroids to Queen status in Super Metroid? Why'd only one Omega show up at the end of Fusion? And now they're gone!
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: KDR_11k on July 14, 2008, 04:01:52 PM
She gained the power to eat X, no?
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Halbred on July 14, 2008, 04:34:56 PM
Sure, and now the X are also extinct.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Enner on July 14, 2008, 06:23:27 PM
Well, you never know. They are parasites and those are pretty willy things.

The same goes for the Chozo; who knows how far they spread out in the galaxy. Cheap as it maybe, they could just pull a "Oh hey! We never saw this planet way out here and it has Chozo ruins and Metroids/Parasite X/whatever plot McGuffin!" And honestly, who would care much as long as the game plays great, eh?
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: KDR_11k on July 15, 2008, 04:45:36 AM
Maybe she can eat people's life force by raping them...
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Hostile Creation on July 16, 2008, 04:40:36 PM
I read the article.  I enjoyed reading it but I always wonder about the usefulness of proposing or speculating about future game ideas.  Although I do really like the notion of a seamless world.

I don't know that the style of the game should change (I refer to the dynamic between upgrades and level design), because that's as inherent to the franchise as the empowerment and exploration themes.  Maybe even more so; that's what the exploration theme is built upon.  Taking Metroid into a world of squad combat takes it away from what Metroid is; make another game for squad combat, or use it effectively, somehow, within the conventions of the game.

I think stealth could work within the game's design, but I wonder whether it's really worthwhile.  The solitude and puzzle-solving aspects of the game feel enough like stealth already.  It may be worth trying, but I can't say for sure.  I think it's worked in Zelda games (which work on a very similar dynamic), but whether it could be a significant portion of the game (like half), I don't know.

Story elements I rarely even consider.  They're a MacGuffin, essentially, except instead of being an element that propels the story forward, they're a story that propels the game mechanic forward.  Now Metroid has a more coherent through-line than most Nintendo franchises (in contrast to Zelda), so it may be worth maintaining some kind of unity or consistency, but I don't think the game should be approached from a story perspective.  If a story element inspires a game design, fine (the Chozo training idea is interesting, if unlikely and impractical).  But the creation of a game should be "What game design do we want?", then, "What's the best story we can make to fit within that design," and only then, "How can we fit this story into the broader, franchise story?"  It may connect only loosely, but you'll ultimately have a better game.

I'm not saying the game designers shouldn't consider potentially enriching elements from previous games, but they should not take priority.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: DAaaMan64 on July 16, 2008, 04:42:08 PM
IT LIVES
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Hostile Creation on July 16, 2008, 04:48:06 PM
:O IT DOES

Certain events led me away from games and this site for a while (including the new forum design, but I've gotten over that), but only temporarily.  I imagine you'll be seeing me around more often now.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 16, 2008, 04:51:45 PM
It'd be nice if you can support Team Reggie online karting.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: KDR_11k on July 16, 2008, 04:57:33 PM
The solitude and puzzle-solving aspects of the game feel enough like stealth already.
Not really. The defining characteristics of stealth are IMO
1. You cannot see when you will mess up (can a guard see me at that distance? at this?)
2. When you mess up once (get hit by a vision cone) you have a near 100% chance of losing
3. You cannot remove threats in order to make an area safe for traversal

This generates a tension where you can never feel safe because the threats are always around and always instantly lethal (you can afford getting a shot to the face but get spotted once and it's all over) and you can never really be sure where the limit is for safe movement. The difference to non-stealth gameplay is that in non-stealth you can eliminate most threats, you can see what will harm you because it has to touch you and you can often survive plenty of hits.

That's why I keep saying I'd accept stealth if enemies shot lasers from their eyes and didn't trigger alarms (hurting you instead but nothing like teleporting to the beginning of the level or making some parts unaccessible until you hide for a while). Of course I'd also settle for the shotgun option: Just make it feasible to kill everything that tries to see you or gets spawned by the alarm.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Halbred on July 16, 2008, 05:41:33 PM
KDR, have you ever played a Metal Gear Solid game? There are always multiple ways to make an area safe for traversal. In MGS4, I enjoy nothing more than nullifying all the threats in a particular area, then wandering around at my leisure, picking up items and doing funny things with the corpses. Twin Snakes and MGS2 also give you this freedom. There's a camera over there? Shoot it out, or throw a chaff grenade. Break some necks, pile the bodies in lockers or behind a stack of boxes.

And stealth gameplay does not mean "you've been seen--INSTA-KILL!"
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on July 16, 2008, 06:27:20 PM
It often comes close enough.  I could never get into Thief, for example, because I couldn't put up a fight if I screwed up.  Then there are all the non-stealth games that have stealth sections that don't let you even try to fight or run if you're seen, like Zelda.  It's a conundrum, because if I'm tough enough to kill everything in my way, why bother sneaking around?  The game either forces you to sneak some of the time with instant failure or setbacks, or it makes you too weak not to sneak.  Very few games have successfully balanced the two extremes, and I don't know of any non-stealth games that do it right in their forced stealth sections.

Regardless, KDR's first point is the biggest strike against stealth.  It's too hard to figure out what enemies and cameras can "see" in stealth games.  I've played games in which I could hide in plain sight in one room but not in the shadows in another room.  Various games have tried all kinds of hide-o-meters and vision cone minimap displays, but nothing really intuitive, limiting the appeal of the genre.  Even though I like the occasional stealth game, I don't think it would be possible to add significant stealth gameplay to an existing non-stealth franchise without alienating a very large chunk of the fanbase.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: KDR_11k on July 17, 2008, 04:07:00 AM
Hell, Phantom Hourglass tried to work around the view issue with visible view cones. The catch? The phantoms could actually see further and wider than the visible cone!
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: mantidor on July 17, 2008, 11:39:04 AM
It often comes close enough.  I could never get into Thief, for example, because I couldn't put up a fight if I screwed up. 

Well, that was kind of the point, if you can fight easily then why sneak up at all? Fighting was made crappy so you would try to avoid it as much as possible, but once you were in an impossible situation you still had the opportunity to use it as a last resort.

Stealth adds a lot of suspense and tension, and that is something great for games like Metroid, but I admit trying to find a balance between action, exploration and/or sneaking up is pretty hard and few games if any have done it.With the exception of Metroid of course, minus the stealth part. The highlight of the stealth portion of ZM was for me the same as the article. Metroid is also a game about progression and growing, so regaining your armor and becoming this invincible tank after you were killed with one shot was a pretty amazing feeling.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: KDR_11k on July 17, 2008, 12:26:30 PM
The problem is that so many games go out of their way to let the player survive multiple hits so he can mess up without having to start over but in stealth parts you lose if you get seen even once.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Stogi on July 17, 2008, 04:25:37 PM
Stealth Samus just doesn't feel right...

I'd rather have a brand new Nintendo developed stealth game about robbing museums and other places with priceless art.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 17, 2008, 04:32:45 PM
I'd rather have a brand new Nintendo developed stealth game about robbing museums and other places with priceless art.

Interesting (http://cube.ign.com/objects/013/013928.html)...
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Zyrtsuryu on July 18, 2008, 08:09:12 PM
Hello all. This is my first post here. I'm Zyrtsuryu, and you might recognize me from a certain Metroid website's Fan Fiction area. I won't mention the URL, because that would be shameless plugging.  :rolleyes:

But seriously; I read the feature and I think it is excellent. Like any true fan, I was a little discouraged when I heard there was no Metroid news from E3 this year, but thems the breaks.

The first Metroid I played was the original, and I was probably only 6 or 7 years old. Needless to say, I became frustrated constantly and soon labeled the game as the Super-Hard Demon Game featuring Lion Guy with a Gun.

So my first Metroid game that I made any real progress in was Echoes. I bought the game so I could play it upstairs in my room with my new TV. You see, I was absolutely enchanted by the game's scan feature. I played a demo once in Walmart with a grimy, broken controller and loved every minute of it.

If I was going to suggest any new mechanic, I would have to say an explosion of the scan visor. Everything should be scannable, and it should take a kind of mystery-solving turn, with the player scanning certain things and using the logbook to record notes. The scan objects should not be placed directly along the path of the game in plain sight. I think Samus should have to explore off the beaten path (perhaps in an open world) and find the key to unlock a new area or a new weapon, what have you.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Stogi on July 19, 2008, 12:37:24 PM
Do you really want to be stuck in scan mode the entire game though?
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Crimm on July 19, 2008, 02:20:04 PM
What if scanning didn't take very long?  What if you could simply look at most items and the data on it would pop up on the side unobtrusively?
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on July 19, 2008, 03:36:42 PM
Yeah, I think the progress bar for scanning needs to go.  It doesn't add anything to the game, and I really doubt it's a technical necessity (e.g. loading time to bring up the text).
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Yoshidious on July 23, 2008, 12:13:11 AM
Hello all. This is my first post here. I'm Zyrtsuryu, and you might recognize me from a certain Metroid website's Fan Fiction area. I won't mention the URL, because that would be shameless plugging.  :rolleyes:

Welcome to our forums, it pleases me to hear that you enjoyed reading the feature.

Regarding the scan visor, I found its use in Metroid Prime to be quite satisfying, combining gameplay hints with unorthodox storytelling to create an even more immersive, cohersive experience. In the latter Prime games I found that its novelty had worn off somewhat, and this was only compounded by the obtrusiveness of the sluggish progress bar. So I would agree that scanning would have to be a greatly more fluid process if it were expanded to a large degree, but I see no reason why this could not be done.

I still believe the indirect, piecemeal narrative derived from well-written logbook entries is the best way to tell a story in Metroid while maintaining the sense of isolation that the series is known for, so in that sense I would support more extensive scanning, with the proviso that it be better incorporated into gameplay than it was in the Prime trilogy. 
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 23, 2008, 10:14:37 AM
I think the scan bar is a worthwhile addition in certain places in the game. During some bosses, you had to put yourself in harms way to get the scan data and that's cool. If it was instant, the novelty of getting the scan would be gone. Otherwise I agree, lose it; it really just wastes my time in parts where I don't have to weigh out the possible consequences.

Also, Greg your new avatar scares the crap out of me.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Yoshidious on July 23, 2008, 02:29:28 PM
I think the scan bar is a worthwhile addition in certain places in the game. During some bosses, you had to put yourself in harms way to get the scan data and that's cool. If it was instant, the novelty of getting the scan would be gone. Otherwise I agree, lose it; it really just wastes my time in parts where I don't have to weigh out the possible consequences.

Also, Greg your new avatar scares the crap out of me.

Where the progress bar could be rationalised on gameplay grounds, such as in the case of discovering a boss' weakness, I agree that it was quite satisfactory. As for my avatar, I'm just following Nintendo's lead: putting more smiles on more faces ;)
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: DAaaMan64 on July 23, 2008, 02:33:01 PM
OH I figured it was like a Joker reference.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Yoshidious on July 23, 2008, 02:56:35 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm totally pumped for The Dark Knight (not out here 'til this weekend, NO SPOILAZ PLEASE)
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 23, 2008, 02:58:10 PM
Arthur defeats the Knight in mortal combat.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Halbred on August 13, 2008, 06:45:27 PM
I'm all for more Scan Visor functionality. I didn't like the "collect 'em all" aspect of scans in Echoes, though. Getting to the end of the game only to find that I didn't scan that one boss' detached head three times was really irksome.

I did love how the story in Metroid Prime 1 was told through logbook entries. Very moody, and really hammered home the idea of something terrible happening in the past.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: KDR_11k on August 14, 2008, 02:53:11 AM
I liked it in Prime 1 but in Prime 3 I didn't even read the story entries anymore, always postponing it for "later". Though the heavy use of story sequences in Prime 3 was something I didn't like anyway.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Stogi on August 14, 2008, 05:18:20 AM
Agreed.

I don't understand why the logbooks have to be in text. There is so much impressive technology in the world of Prime, yet when it comes to data, it's all in text. Where's the holographic display depicting a story with the all important built in narrator? Where's the holographic display depicting the creature that recorded it before it died?

There was one instance in Prime 3 where you heard some crazy **** from a transmission and it was a secret of some sort. What gives?

Which brings me to my next point: I think more of the story should be told through transmissions. I always like that in games. Finding out knowledge that your not suppose to know by uncovering or eaves dropping on a transmission from a henchmen to the boss man. That ****'s great.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: KDR_11k on August 14, 2008, 10:21:25 AM
I think it's not done that often because it's easy to miss and having the player not notice your big plot twist might hurt the game...
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Stogi on August 14, 2008, 04:38:25 PM
That's solved easy enough. Just make it so the player can't forward through the plot twist.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Ceric on August 14, 2008, 05:01:50 PM
Agreed.

I don't understand why the logbooks have to be in text. There is so much impressive technology in the world of Prime, yet when it comes to data, it's all in text. Where's the holographic display depicting a story with the all important built in narrator? Where's the holographic display depicting the creature that recorded it before it died?

There was one instance in Prime 3 where you heard some crazy **** from a transmission and it was a secret of some sort. What gives?

Which brings me to my next point: I think more of the story should be told through transmissions. I always like that in games. Finding out knowledge that your not suppose to know by uncovering or eaves dropping on a transmission from a henchmen to the boss man. That ****'s great.

I will argue that text will maintain itself as the clearest, easiest, cheapest medium to deliver information for many more generations.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 14, 2008, 07:11:36 PM
You can't beat Sega arcade voice acting.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Mario on August 15, 2008, 02:51:08 AM
For unobtrusive scanning you could have all text show up on a DS all the time that mentions whatever you're looking at, and you can have a second player read out loud anything interesting. It would have to be an option of course, but it would be an awesome one.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: KDR_11k on August 15, 2008, 05:16:33 AM
That's solved easy enough. Just make it so the player can't forward through the plot twist.

Not if you make the triggers for these things optional. Scanning better be an optional trigger, being locked in a room until you read all the story snippets removes the entire point of finding the story yourself.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 15, 2008, 12:37:04 PM
Samus will die of boredom.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Halbred on August 11, 2009, 07:03:46 PM
*raises hand*

I'd just like to mention that part of the reason I was so emotional during the Other M trailer at E3 is that it felt like Team Ninja read our piece (my bits, specifically) and said "Let's do THAT."

Too awesome.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 11, 2009, 07:17:54 PM
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

~~~~~

Samus will die of indecent exposure.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: KDR_11k on August 12, 2009, 02:15:05 AM
All I can say is that I'm not excited about Metroid Other M because I play Metroid for the levels, not the story.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Stogi on August 12, 2009, 02:59:56 AM
It wouldn't hurt if it had a more well rounded story though.

I mean...Samus is so badass that it would be nice to know how she became so badass.

Honestly, her story would be perfect if portrayed in movie form. Well, as long as Michael Bay doesn't touch it. It'd be like I am Legend except with a better story line and scenario.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 12, 2009, 03:01:47 AM
I'll trade Other M for that movie.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: KDR_11k on August 12, 2009, 04:12:27 AM
It wouldn't hurt if it had a more well rounded story though.

Oh yes it would hurt because any attempt at story I've seen from Metroid developers usually comes down to locking the game world away until you reach arbitrary plot triggers that have nothing to do with your collected items and usually send you on errands that undermine the concept of exploration by telling you exactly what the next step is.
Title: Re: FEATURES: Whither Now, Samus Aran?
Post by: Stogi on August 12, 2009, 04:47:51 AM
Well that's because they picked the wrong formula.

Instead of solving the story in order, they should let you pick up pieces where ever you find them creating a story that is more like a puzzle.

Plus, who's to say that it can't start with some epic prologue that has Samus in a structured path, but then turns Samus loose on some planet?