Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: vudu on May 16, 2008, 04:47:04 PM
Title: Tiers?
Post by: vudu on May 16, 2008, 04:47:04 PM
(Wow, this forum has been completely dead for the past month.)
So the game's been out for over two months, and I haven't seen a single tier list. So, will someone who cares enough to stay one top of these things please tell me who's generally considered to be 1337 and who I would have to be an idiot to use?
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 16, 2008, 04:48:53 PM
1. Mario Kart Wii 2. Medal of Honor: Hereos 2 3.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: Nick DiMola on May 16, 2008, 04:58:06 PM
I've noticed Wolf, Dedede and Olimar to be pretty good.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: DAaaMan64 on May 16, 2008, 05:01:15 PM
Olimar is the fucking man.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on May 16, 2008, 07:45:58 PM
Olimar being superpowerful isn't a balance issue, that's just the game being true to the source material.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: Dirk Temporo on May 16, 2008, 08:59:52 PM
(Wow, this forum has been completely dead for the past month.)
So the game's been out for over two months, and I haven't seen a single tier list. So, will someone who cares enough to stay one top of these things please tell me who's generally considered to be 1337 and who I would have to be an idiot to use?
Die.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: stevey on May 16, 2008, 09:20:02 PM
God- Malon, ZS Samus Bottom - Everyone else
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: nickmitch on May 16, 2008, 11:56:40 PM
I've been hearing good things about Snake, and I've always thought that Pit would be top tier.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: Arbok on May 17, 2008, 11:19:38 AM
I've noticed Wolf, Dedede and Olimar to be pretty good.
I think the debate on Olimar will wage for sometime... to some, he seems overly powerful; however, once you factor in that his recovery technique is awful (even the most delayed attempt to edge hog means his doom) there will probably be continuous debate as to how competitive he actually is.
Anyway, I'm quite pleased with the overall balance in Brawl, which has delayed a outright tier list from appearing up to this point (but one will emerge eventually).
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: DAaaMan64 on May 17, 2008, 02:18:42 PM
Not to mention you can jungle Olimar till the sun comes down.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: Spak-Spang on May 18, 2008, 11:59:06 PM
Obviously the game still favors fast characters over the weighted characters, but this game actually has some very well designed medium weight characters that can truly compete.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: Luigi Dude on May 19, 2008, 05:45:51 AM
Obviously the game still favors fast characters over the weighted characters
Not all of them. Ike is a beast among a lot of competitive players and yet he's one of the slowest characters. Plus since Bowser attacks much faster now, he's very capable of handling fast characters this time. Not to mention Bowser's weight actually means something in Brawl making him much harder to KO, while he can KO most fast characters with only a few moves.
Even King Dedede who most people complain because of his slowness has shown he can be a real force in the hands of the right players so far.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: Arbok on May 19, 2008, 12:04:55 PM
Obviously the game still favors fast characters over the weighted characters
Not all of them. Ike is a beast among a lot of competitive players and yet he's one of the slowest characters. Plus since Bowser attacks much faster now, he's very capable of handling fast characters this time. Not to mention Bowser's weight actually means something in Brawl making him much harder to KO, while he can KO most fast characters with only a few moves.
Even King Dedede who most people complain because of his slowness has shown he can be a real force in the hands of the right players so far.
*sniff* No mention of Ganondorf, my personal favorite.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: Nick DiMola on May 19, 2008, 12:32:26 PM
Meh Ganondorf was seriously nerfed in the transition from Melee to Brawl IMO. At least amongst friends and in the few tournaments I played in, I was a force to be reckoned with when playing as Ganondorf in Melee, yet in Brawl I can barely compete with him.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: Luigi Dude on May 19, 2008, 04:09:14 PM
*sniff* No mention of Ganondorf, my personal favorite.
Sorry, I'm not very good with Ganondorf and I haven't seen anyone really tear up the screen with him like I've seen some do with King Dedede. So it's hard for me to argue in his favor like I can with Bowser and Ike who I'm good with, and DDD who I've seen other people do good with.
Since your good with Ganondorf then you'd be the better person to make the case for him since I can't from my experience.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: Arbok on May 19, 2008, 08:40:52 PM
Meh Ganondorf was seriously nerfed in the transition from Melee to Brawl IMO. At least amongst friends and in the few tournaments I played in, I was a force to be reckoned with when playing as Ganondorf in Melee, yet in Brawl I can barely compete with him.
Well he is much different in Brawl... just make sure to utilize his very quick Forward B, which is quite amazing for its ability to break through shields and gives him a quick attack to fall back on. His Down B (aerial... not suggested to be used on the ground) is also quite nice and counters a lot of attacks that the enemy might try to pull when you are falling; it also works as counter attack when recovering, and scores a meteor doing so, as long as one get used to the trajectory and doesn't suicide themself getting back on the platform.
Otherwise, his A attacks are pretty potent still, especially his aerial attacks. His neutral A and forward A are also quite good, and do a nice job to compliment his attacks so that he doesn't have to rely on a few and greatly reduce their effectiveness during the battle.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: Smash_Brother on May 20, 2008, 01:30:06 PM
From what I understand, Snake players are absolutely dominating the competitive scene right now. Apparently, Snake is considered top-tier.
I sadly have to agree: most of his moves can kill, he has some quick moves, his recovery is phenomenal (with SA to boot) and he weighs a goddamn TON.
I think Snake probably should've had less vertical recovery or weighted less. Thanks to his SA on recovery, he's basically impossible to spike and can survive hits during recovery which would gimp the recovery of most characters.
Sakurai gave Snake a bit too many advantages, IMHO.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: Spak-Spang on May 20, 2008, 01:35:40 PM
I could never get into Snake. He is a good player, but very tricky to play as. I just really don't like his specials which are very hard to tag people with. However, he has a great recovery and a little cheat trick with it.
I enjoy the more straight forward characters.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: DAaaMan64 on May 20, 2008, 01:36:32 PM
From what I understand, Snake players are absolutely dominating the competitive scene right now. Apparently, Snake is considered top-tier.
I sadly have to agree: most of his moves can kill, he has some quick moves, his recovery is phenomenal (with SA to boot) and he weighs a goddamn TON.
I think Snake probably should've had less vertical recovery or weighted less. Thanks to his SA on recovery, he's basically impossible to spike and can survive hits during recovery which would gimp the recovery of most characters.
Sakurai gave Snake a bit too many advantages, IMHO.
LOL Snake is quite good. I got pretty good with him. He is fun to use. He doesn't flow though and that is what bothers me about him. It's also what brings me back to Olimar every time.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: vudu on May 20, 2008, 02:16:00 PM
I enjoy Snake quite a bit. My biggest beef with him is his lack of a proper Down Smash, which means he doesn't have a Smash Attack that can hit players on both sides. Also, his Side Smash is really finicky on ramps, which can make it hard to hit opponents.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: Athrun Zala on May 20, 2008, 02:44:08 PM
Wario > all
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: Smoke39 on May 20, 2008, 05:40:12 PM
Snake's actually been my main almost from the beginning. His moves are weird, but once you learn to rely on smashes less and hang back a little more, he's a lot of fun.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: Stogi on May 21, 2008, 01:19:10 AM
Lucas is the best character.
He's quick, powerful, small, and has an insane array of moves. His up smash is devastating.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: nickmitch on May 21, 2008, 04:16:21 AM
I main Lucas, and all my friends hate his up smash. I used to like to use Ness, but Lucas is just so much better.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: DAaaMan64 on May 21, 2008, 11:37:56 AM
Yes us Olimar players especially hate Lucas.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: RABicle on May 21, 2008, 05:29:42 PM
I played this shitty game for the first time last weak and, oh god what have they done to Jigglypuff? They nerfed rest to hell. It's gone form best move int he game to bloody useless. It ONLY knocks people directly up now, this is criminal.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: nickmitch on May 21, 2008, 09:30:13 PM
I played this shitty game for the first time last weak and, oh god what have they done to Jigglypuff? They nerfed rest to hell. It's gone form best move int he game to bloody useless. It ONLY knocks people directly up now, this is criminal.
True, but rollout isn't instant death if you go off the ledge now.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: IssunZX on May 25, 2008, 11:49:26 PM
I understand that there is a big competitive scene with Smash Bros., but I never understood this "tier" crap. I mean, does it suddenly make me a worse player because I prefer to use characters I like/can control better over another character? I dunno, whatever happened to having fun when you're playing? That being said, I don't know what really qualifies as "high-tier" and "low-tier." I also never got the whole "wavedashing" thing and all those other "advanced techniques" (which, if I'm not mistaken, was exploiting glitches, right?).
I don't know if Sonic qualifies for "high-tier" but he's my favorite character to use. I especially like being able to get multiple hits in before running off, using his high-jump and coming back down with a kick and probably follow up with some spin attacks. He's not the strongest character around, but I like that he's able to rack up damage quickly. His smash attacks are also pretty good. I've also gotten into using Lucario because he's more of a power hitter than Sonic, but also still really fun to play as. I'm liking Toon Link more because he 's faster than Link (who I used to play as all the time back in Melee). I dunno, I think Link was slowed down too much, and I prefer close-range fights so if I can get the extra speed it certainly helps. Finally, my other favorite character is the king himself, GANONDORF. He's not fast and he's really heavy, but being able to just punch someone and send them flying is really awesome to me.
I'm not really a competitive person, but I've never played in any tournaments and I've only ever played against my friends, so I probably don't get what the big deal is about using a character that I may not like how they control over another that may be easier for me to grasp and play as.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 26, 2008, 03:30:45 AM
"I dunno, whatever happened to having fun when you're playing?"
It's not the N64 era anymore.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: Mario on May 26, 2008, 10:14:49 AM
The internet happened
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: Smash_Brother on May 26, 2008, 11:21:03 AM
Tiers tend to matter more in tournaments where there's money to be won.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: IssunZX on May 26, 2008, 01:33:35 PM
Tiers tend to matter more in tournaments where there's money to be won.
I guess, but I mean, can't a character of a supposedly "lower tier" just as easily put up a fight against one of a "higher tier"? How much different is it to knock out Shiek or Marth (or whoever the elitist favorites usually are) with Sonic or Lucario, versus using one "high tier" character versus another? I just think people take this tier crap too seriously.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: Smash_Brother on May 26, 2008, 02:08:23 PM
It boils down to technical matchups, and the problem is that, when you have two players of near-equal skill level, suddenly which character has technical advantages starts playing a role.
Let's take a basic example in matchups: Dedede vs. Donkey Kong.
Dedede as an infinite grab which works on only 5 characters, DK being one of them. Therefore, if the Dedede player doesn't screw up their timing, they can grab DK once, down throw and regrab him to 200% damage, and side throw him off the screen for a basically free KO. This is an extreme example, but an example nonetheless.
In the case of a matchup between Bowser and, say, Metaknight, Bowser is at a disadvantage because he has no real projectile attacks, all of his attacks are physical, and Metaknight has what's called a "disjointed hitbox" meaning that Metaknight's sword doesn't count as his body, so he can attack without worrying about putting his body in harm's way because he cannot be damaged by hitting his sword.
I've still slaughtered plenty of skilled Metaknight players, mind you (I've also lost to a few), but in a hypothetical situation of me facing an opponent of identical skill level, me playing as Bowser puts me at a disadvantage against my equiskilled opponent if he uses Metaknight.
Tiers aren't a new concept: they've been around since Street Fighter and they're real.
Statistically, with literally thousands of SSBB tourneys happening all the time, it's impossible to not have a relevant statistical graph of which characters are winning these tournaments. These are the proving grounds, and if no one is winning tournaments with Yoshi, it's not because no one is trying but because no one is succeeding.
You still have crazy fools like me who take Bowser into tourneys. I'm not about to change my main character because of which characters are winning tourneys, but I'm not so thick as to not acknowledge the fact that Bowser has a severe disadvantage against most other characters.
The question to ask is whether or not this has any effect on a group of people sitting around playing SSBB and that's a hard question to answer. It all boils down to how far this group of players has gone toward exploring the full potential of each character. Some characters are just the right size or fall at the right speed, etc. so that other characters can pull off some truly nasty combos on them. Case in point, the Dedede example from earlier.
It depends more upon the skill of the players than anything, but all characters do have a "ceiling" determining how far one can take them and when human potential exceeds character potential, the tier list is formed.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: IssunZX on May 26, 2008, 07:39:03 PM
Oh, well that makes more sense. Still, I think it's funny how so many people will swear by these characters just because they are of a higher tier. It's only a matter of time before they get knocked out by a character like Sonic or Bowser. I tend to swear by my favorites and what I feel I have the best control of (as I've been saying, Sonic, Lucario, etc.). I wouldn't mind entering a competition, but I figured I'd already get kicked around almost ridiculously. I'm far from best Brawler around, but I like to think I could still hold my own without trying to learn a character that I just don't like the feel of.
I don't think it's just skill or the particular character, I also believe luck plays some importance in matches, especially if items are turned on. But I'm kind of an opportunist, so that's where that probably comes from.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: Deep-Six on May 28, 2008, 10:39:13 PM
I've got my friend yelling at me to not use Olimar because I purely dominate with him. From what I hear some people have a lot of trouble with him so is that what balances him out?
Something I figure with snake's and Pits up B moves is that there left venerable for a while since those moves aren't attacks.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: Caterkiller on May 29, 2008, 12:22:25 PM
By far Donkey Kong is the least popular character and not the easiest to use in Brawl. Thats why I have been on a mission to get good with him.
Dedede's chain grab is leathel to DK, especialy at lower % and my brother is such a great Dedede user, so I have to constantly watch out for that on stages with no ledges. But you just have to find ways around it.
Dk has no projectile, and you can set your self up bad if you don't know how to use his spinning Kong properly. Meaning you get back on stage so he lands on his feet and not his back. So speedy characters with projectiles are the worst for DK, because you can barely get close to some like Olimar or ROB with out getting shot up like crazy.
And after a nice bit of play time I discovered how to get around thunder shocks and lazer beams, waddle dees, Pikmin and the freakin tornado thing Metaknight does. Tilts, tilts and more tilts. You can not be good with DK if you don't know how to use his tilts. His forward tilt has major priority over projectiles, and all 3 forward, down and up allow you to hit fast and keep your opponents off balance. Setting them up for a smash attack.
Edge guarding is the best way to deal with Olimar, thats what balances him out for me. Other wise I can never tell exactly what he is doing.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 29, 2008, 01:53:51 PM
Hard? Try using Captain Falcon when there's lag.
Title: Re: Tiers?
Post by: Bartman3010 on June 07, 2008, 01:07:03 PM
Hell, Donkey Kong is my main character. Just keep in mind to make him go slow, as thats how to get the best use of him (Though why his running attack is a kick instead of a barrel roll is a mystery to me) Hold a direction on a stick (Instead of tapping) for an attack with a great reach, really quick too. Anyone who has a giant or metal status effect can be trapped when DK does hs handslap move, making it almost impossible to recover unless they can escape or they lose the affect altogether. Of course his Smash attack can basically send people with 60-80% damage to their death (Dont forget to use Up+A in the air to send people upward) Finally, his Smash attack is best used in the middle of the stage, along with timing to the music. Making it tough for people to get back onto the stage (Or at least trap them in a corner)
His Up+B move can do a pretty good combo if you can land it just right...
