Post by: UncleBob on December 18, 2007, 04:43:24 AM
According to an article on Kotaku, Nintendo of America isn't fond of retailers forcing bundles on consumers.
So, I'm left wondering why Nintendo of America forces bundles on consumers? Here in the states, we had to pay $30 more than Japan for our Wii because it was bundled with Wii Sports. Over the Thanksgiving holiday, y'all released special edition DS units that were only sold in bundles for $20 more than the normal price of the DS (both with games I already own).
I too am all for letting the consumer decide what he or she wants. Thus, I don't think it's quite fair to force bundles on us either.
Thank you.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on December 18, 2007, 05:16:59 AM
Wii Sports was pretty much essential in convincing consumers that the Wii is an excellent gaming machine. Had Wii Sports been released by itself it would've been ignored since gamers had already labeled Wii Sports as a cheap tech demo. Even if the game raised the price of the console it was a strategic decision, one that had helped many people cross over to new gaming fields.
On the case of DS bundles, those are OPTIONAL. You can either buy the bundle with the game you want or you can just buy a DS Lite.
Most importantly, these official bundles are priced just within the consumer's spending range. The type of bundles Nintendo is talking about are exaggerated, extremely pricy bundles that retailers force upon consumers due to how rare and well sought out the Wii is. Nintendo's bundle's include the essentials; the console, a game and perhaps some accessories. These bundles include games no one wants along with accessories and peripherals of questionable quality.
I think that's what Nintendo is talking about. Nintendo's bundles are reasonable and optional. Retailer's bundles can be ridiculous sometimes and with the Wii being so rare it forces consumers to choose between shelling more than extra or going home empty handed, a HARD decision parents must face when buying presents for their kids.
At least that's how I view it.
Post by: Crimm on December 18, 2007, 05:21:37 AM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on December 18, 2007, 05:32:17 AM
Now, if Nintendo wasn't mass producing stand alone DSs and was forcing the bundles onto retailers and consumer THEN it would be a problem. But for now, I think Nintendo isn't being hypocritical in their statements.
Post by: 31 Flavas on December 18, 2007, 06:51:20 AM
QuoteOh please, these are pretty meager bundles compared to the Walmart, GameStop, and ToyRus bundles. As far as Zelda DS bundle, you're getting the game for $15 off. Give it to a friend for xmas. (that is what I'm doing) Or if you're not the charitable type go sell it on eBay for $30.
Originally posted by: UncleBob
Hello Reggie.
According to an article on Kotaku, Nintendo of America isn't fond of retailers forcing bundles on consumers.
So, I'm left wondering why Nintendo of America forces bundles on consumers? Here in the states, we had to pay $30 more than Japan for our Wii because it was bundled with Wii Sports. Over the Thanksgiving holiday, y'all released special edition DS units that were only sold in bundles for $20 more than the normal price of the DS (both with games I already own).
I too am all for letting the consumer decide what he or she wants. Thus, I don't think it's quite fair to force bundles on us either.
Thank you.
As far as Wii Sports, where's the vice and gnashing of teeth over the NES, SNES, and GameBoy, bundles of Mario Bros., Mario World, and Tetris? Oh geez let me guess, they're "games" right. No problems, no gouging there.... Or for that matter, what about xbox 360 core? Who in their right flipping mind is going to buy a xbox 360 core? It's very easy to say xbox 360 core is gouging the consumer, not giving them choice.
There are bundles that make sense and then there are bundles that are specifically designed for gouging. Reggie is talking about the latter.
You can't tell me that a modern day Mario Galaxy bundle with Wii would garner this much contempt. That isn't to say you can't express dissatisfaction or contempt for Wii Sports. But, lets not kid around here, the heart of this argument isn't that a bundled game is "not-fair" or impedes consumer choice. It's that you don't want to support Wii Sports since it is the harbinger of gaming doom.
Make that your argument, is what i'm saying. Because the consumers have spoken and Wii Sports is what they want. Hence this is no worse then Nintendo's past bundles, which were good things.
Post by: BranDonk Kong on December 18, 2007, 07:39:37 AM
Post by: matt oz on December 18, 2007, 08:39:38 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: 31 FlavasIt's that you don't want to support Wii Sports since it is the heir bringer of gaming doom.
do you mean harbinger? because if not, i have no idea what you're saying.
Post by: ShyGuy on December 18, 2007, 08:45:15 AM
Post by: 31 Flavas on December 18, 2007, 11:02:01 AM
QuoteYa. Thanks.
Originally posted by: matt oz
do you mean harbinger? because if not, i have no idea what you're saying.
Post by: Dirk Temporo on December 18, 2007, 04:33:32 PM
Quote
We don't have to remind retailers of the strength we have right now. We are simply making an observation and that reinforces our point quite nicely with retailers.
=
"You wouldn't want anything BAD to happen, now would you?"
Post by: UncleBob on December 19, 2007, 01:55:53 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: pap64
Now, if Nintendo wasn't mass producing stand alone DSs and was forcing the bundles onto retailers and consumer THEN it would be a problem. But for now, I think Nintendo isn't being hypocritical in their statements.
Quote
Originally posted by: pap64On the case of DS bundles, those are OPTIONAL. You can either buy the bundle with the game you want or you can just buy a DS Lite.
But Nintendo is not mass producing stand alone versions of these DS units. If you want the Gold or Rose editions, the only way to get them is to buy Nintendo's bundle - there is no option to buy just the Gold or Rose DS.
Quote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
Reggie is gonna getcha for this post.
Bring it!
Quote
Originally posted by: Brandogg
You already own a DS too, no one's forcing you to buy another one.
No one is forcing a consumer to buy a $700 Wii Bundle either. Such bundles are simply a retailer's way of adjusting for supply and demand. If there were no $700 bundles, how many Wiis would end up in the hands of eBay resellers and sell on eBay with nothing extra for $400+? At least you get more stuff in a Bundle.
Quote
Originally posted by: Dirk TemporoQuote
We don't have to remind retailers of the strength we have right now. We are simply making an observation and that reinforces our point quite nicely with retailers.
=
"You wouldn't want anything BAD to happen, now would you?"
You'd think Nintendo would learn what happens to arrogant companies from their arrogance in the NES days... But no...
Quote
Originally posted by: 31 Flavas
1.)Oh please, these are pretty meager bundles compared to the Walmart, GameStop, and ToyRus bundles.
2.)As far as Zelda DS bundle, you're getting the game for $15 off. Give it to a friend for xmas. (that is what I'm doing) Or if you're not the charitable type go sell it on eBay for $30.
3.)As far as Wii Sports, where's the vice and gnashing of teeth over the NES, SNES, and GameBoy, bundles of Mario Bros., Mario World, and Tetris? Oh geez let me guess, they're "games" right. No problems, no gouging there....
4.)Or for that matter, what about xbox 360 core? Who in their right flipping mind is going to buy a xbox 360 core? It's very easy to say xbox 360 core is gouging the consumer, not giving them choice.
5.)You can't tell me that a modern day Mario Galaxy bundle with Wii would garner this much contempt.
6.)It's that you don't want to support Wii Sports since it is the harbinger of gaming doom.
1.)But they're still bundles that the customer has to pay extra for if they want the hardware. The customer is not given a choice.
2.)As far as a $700 Bundle goes, give the extras as gifts or sell them on eBay.
3.)I don't remember Reggie (or Nintendo) coming out during the days of the NES/SNES/Game Boy and making subtle threats to retailers for bundling systems then.
4.)I don't understand your argument here. Because Microsoft was offering three different SKUs of the 360, one of those being a pure base unit without anything bundled in... they weren't giving customers a choice?
5.)I seem to remember when Nintendo did an offer of "Buy a GameCube, get one of these four games free." there were people saying(/crying) that Nintendo was stupid for doing so and they should just drop the price of the system instead. I think the games included Mario Sunshine and Metroid Prime.
6.)That's funny. I always thought I *liked* Wii Sports. I'm glad you're here to show me that I don't.... Hmm... guess I'll have to sell my copy on eBay now.
Post by: UncleBob on December 19, 2007, 02:14:57 AM
I wonder how Joe Consumer would like it if they had to purchase two DS units in order to be allowed to buy one Wii.
Post by: Arbok on December 19, 2007, 05:03:06 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: UncleBob
I wonder how Joe Consumer would like it if they had to purchase two DS units in order to be allowed to buy one Wii.
To keep with the analogy, if I was a eBay reseller and could turn a profit on the two DS units, I don't think I would care.
Post by: Dirk Temporo on December 19, 2007, 07:30:12 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: UncleBob
You'd think Nintendo would learn what happens to arrogant companies from their arrogance in the NES days... But no...
Reggie isn't Nintendo. Iwata is, and Iwata is all kinds of humble. But being humble isn't going to get you anywhere in the business world, which is why Reggie makes such a nice complement to Iwata.
Post by: NWR_insanolord on December 19, 2007, 07:54:29 AM
Post by: UncleBob on December 19, 2007, 08:08:37 AM
"We don't have to remind retailers of the strength we have right now."
That's a pretty arrogant statement, IMHO. It's not quite NES level arrogance, (as, ideally, there's been no bite to the bark), but it's pretty high up there. You can't treat the retail stores like crap - unless you want to go to mail order only. Face it, the Wii and DS is selling like *crazy* in stores and stores are still very reluctant to give up Sony's shelf space to Nintendo... Why is that?
Retail stores were more than happy to dump their "World of Nintendo" for giant Genesis (Mega Drive) and Playstation displays... It's almost as if retailers *want* Nintendo to fail... Why would that be?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 19, 2007, 08:45:12 AM
Post by: Crimm on December 19, 2007, 12:11:09 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
Retailers suck.
Thread over. Everyone go home.
Post by: BranDonk Kong on December 19, 2007, 01:33:23 PM
Post by: Dirk Temporo on December 19, 2007, 01:35:32 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: UncleBob
stores are still very reluctant to give up Sony's shelf space to Nintendo.
Are you kidding? Go into a Gamestop. The PS3 section is TINY. In fact, the PS3 section at my Gamestop is smaller than our Gamecube section.
Post by: UncleBob on December 19, 2007, 02:00:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Brandogg
Are you trying to get us to feel bad for Wal-Mart?
No, Wal*Mart doesn't even sell bundles (WalMart.com is a different company). :p
Quote
Originally posted by: Dirk TemporoQuote
Originally posted by: UncleBob
stores are still very reluctant to give up Sony's shelf space to Nintendo.
Are you kidding? Go into a Gamestop. The PS3 section is TINY. In fact, the PS3 section at my Gamestop is smaller than our Gamecube section.
How's their PS2 and PSP space though?
Post by: BranDonk Kong on December 19, 2007, 04:37:16 PM
Post by: 31 Flavas on December 19, 2007, 11:40:50 PM
QuoteI just don't think you're going to get much support or agreement that Reggie is being a hypocrite or arrogant here. Retailer bundles are universally reviled and condemned for bundling multiple crap games, overpriced accessories, and needless unwanted "protection" plans. That's treating the manufacturer and customer like crap. Where as manufacturer one game system bundles are long standing, historically widely accepted, and usually offer savings (i.e. $15 discount on Zelda: PH, xbox 360 premium). That savings is called respecting the customer while pushing the agenda.
Originally posted by: UncleBob
"We don't have to remind retailers of the strength we have right now."
That's a pretty arrogant statement, IMHO. It's not quite NES level arrogance, (as, ideally, there's been no bite to the bark), but it's pretty high up there. You can't treat the retail stores like crap - unless you want to go to mail order only.
Even when they don't offer any savings, manufacturer bundles are still accepted because only one game is bundled and it is always a popular one with widespread support. In other words, they don't abuse you like the retailer bundles do. And if you *like* Wii Sports why are you complaining about the bundle in the first place? That's like throwing a hissy fit that Nintendo forced you to buy Tetris with your GameBoy. Oh the abuse! That accursed Nintendo, they're making me buy TETRIS.
So, no, Reggie is not arrogant or a hypocrite saying retailers can't bundle while his company bundles at the same time. You've got some hidden agenda otherwise.
QuoteI dunno about you, but i'm seeing quite the opposite. EB and Gamestop stores by me have replaced all the PS2, PS3, and PSP sections Nintendo Wii and DS software. The first thing you find when you walk over to video game in my BestBuy is DS and Wii software. Even the largest retailer in akihabara shopping district in Japan replaced the 1st floor with Wii and DS software which had been exclusively Sony's domain. Now it is exclusively Nintendo's domain. Sony is on the 3rd floor now where Nintendo use to be.
Face it, the Wii and DS is selling like *crazy* in stores and stores are still very reluctant to give up Sony's shelf space to Nintendo... Why is that?
Post by: UncleBob on December 20, 2007, 01:07:46 AM
Anywhoo, I don't mind Nintendo's Bundles. I don't mind online retailer bundles (not a fan of in-store bundles - it might sound crazy, but there's actually some sound economics of doing bundles online vs. in store). I simply don't care for Reggie making threating statements that either (a) he'll never back up because he knows it'd be stupid to piss off the retailers but make the customers love Nintendo even more or (b) he'll actually try to make good on, then piss off the retailers and have Nintendo end up back in court for some kind of NES-era lawsuit all over again.
What it comes down to is simple - if you don't want to buy a bundle that a retailer offers, don't buy it. If it's unpopular (i.e.: doesn't sell), then it won't sell as people will go places where they can get unbundled hardware. Then, the retailer will stop bundling.
Post by: ShyGuy on December 20, 2007, 04:01:15 AM
However, just as the consumer can go elsewhere if they don't want to bundle, so can Nintendo go elsewhere if they don't want to bundle.
Post by: UncleBob on December 20, 2007, 07:56:40 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
so can Nintendo go elsewhere if they don't want to bundle.
Yes, they can... But this is where we touch on the (S)NES-era arrogance. Nintendo would short-ship/refuse orders from retailers that would sell the products over MSRP (which I believe there was a lawsuit over) or retailers who would sell unlicensed accessories/games or retailers who didn't give them enough shelf space (even empty shelf space dedicated to product that Nintendo couldn't keep the stores stocked with) or retailers who would just look at them funny.
Retailers need to consider the power that Nintendo has, yes. But Nintendo needs to consider the power that retailers have as well.
Also, an interesting thing to note - as I mentioned earlier, Wii allocation is based on a retail's orders of various 1st party Wii/DS games and accessories. How many retail stores are overloaded with Wii Play and Super Mario Galaxy that they didn't bother to order Zack and Wiki (or insert any other 3rd party title that you've had trouble finding at retail here)?
Post by: ShyGuy on December 20, 2007, 11:42:17 AM
Post by: Mario on December 20, 2007, 02:18:48 PM
Quote
Yes, they can... But this is where we touch on the (S)NES-era arrogance. Nintendo would short-ship/refuse orders from retailers that would sell the products over MSRP (which I believe there was a lawsuit over) or retailers who would sell unlicensed accessories/games or retailers who didn't give them enough shelf space (even empty shelf space dedicated to product that Nintendo couldn't keep the stores stocked with) or retailers who would just look at them funny.
Nintendo Australia did that recently with one fairly big store here (Harvey Norman) and it worked out very well for them with HN crawling back to Nintendo on their knees.
QuoteThat is very interesting, but half the blame is still on the store since they should have some kind of clue what games they should get and proper organisation.
Also, an interesting thing to note - as I mentioned earlier, Wii allocation is based on a retail's orders of various 1st party Wii/DS games and accessories. How many retail stores are overloaded with Wii Play and Super Mario Galaxy that they didn't bother to order Zack and Wiki (or insert any other 3rd party title that you've had trouble finding at retail here)?
Post by: Dirk Temporo on December 20, 2007, 03:45:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: UncleBob
How's their PS2 and PSP space though?
The PSP section is about the size of the Wii section, and still smaller than the Gamecube section. And the PS2 section NEEDS to be huge because of how many games there are.
Post by: BranDonk Kong on December 20, 2007, 03:46:16 PM
Post by: ShyGuy on December 20, 2007, 06:02:33 PM
Post by: UncleBob on December 21, 2007, 12:56:16 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Mario
That is very interesting, but half the blame is still on the store since they should have some kind of clue what games they should get and proper organisation.
The retailer does know what games to get. In order to get a larger allocation of Wiis, the retailer knows they have to get 1st party games. Nintendo doesn't care about the sales of Zack and Wiki - they care about how many copies of Super Mario Galaxy they can move. So, if a store is looking at ordering (I'm making these numbers up here) 12 copies of Super Mario Galaxy and getting three more Wiis in the next shipment, or ordering 12 copies of Zack and Wiki and getting no more Wiis in the next shipment, which are they going to do?
Quote
Originally posted by: Dirk TemporoQuote
Originally posted by: UncleBob
How's their PS2 and PSP space though?
The PSP section is about the size of the Wii section, and still smaller than the Gamecube section. And the PS2 section NEEDS to be huge because of how many games there are.
What's the size of the DS vs. PSP section?
Quote
I believe the retailers actually do pretty well on Wii's hardware sales. The wholesale is something like $235 IIRC, so they make $15 or so on each one. That may seem like chump change, but when you sell 50 of them in 5 minutes, that's a pretty quick $750. Also, when the PS3 launched, according to my game-store-owner-buddy, retailers had to pay about $297-$299 for each system, making $0-$3 off each system.
Wait... $299 for a PS3 that sold for $399 or $499? I think your numbers are a little off.
Anywhoo, the markup on systems is crap. Retailers make their money selling games and accessories. This is why I completely understand online retailers bundling stuff with the system. Most people don't buy most of their games/accessories online*. So the online retailer doesn't get the extra markup form the add ons that they would normally in a store - either at the time of purchase or during the life of the system. Thus, the bundle assures them that they'll get something for selling the system. I would assume online retailers are held to a similar standard that they too order more games/accessories in order to get more Wiis.
*Yes, I know a lot of us do buy online, but I'd bet that the majority of the time we buy stuff online is when we get a good deal - i.e.: the retailer isn't making much on the markup. If it's a new release, most of us will just go out and buy it and rarely do we impulse purchase regular priced games online...
Post by: Ceric on December 21, 2007, 01:14:04 AM
Post by: UncleBob on December 21, 2007, 01:29:30 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric
I wonder if Nintendo would object to doing a 3:1 type equivalent where ever 3 non-Nintendo game in stock equalled one Nintendo game. (As in 3 Zak and Wiki = 1 Mario Galaxy.) The number can be whatever amount it takes of selling a third party game to make Nintendo enough to be like selling a first party game. I don't know what that is off the top of my head. That way a more balance stocking arrangement wouldn't hurt a retailer as much. Do the same for accesssories.
So then a retailer has to look at it this way - buy 36 copies of Zack and Wiki and get three extra Wiis, or buy 12 copies of Super Mario Galaxy and get three extra Wiis. Oh, and the Super Mario Galaxy is virtually a guaranteed sale at regular price (because it's a Nintendo title!) Zack and Wiki will probably not sell out at retail price and be marked down once or twice. (again, I made up all the numbers here off the top of my head... I don't know exactly what the ratio of software/accessories to Wiis is. (Wiis is? Say that five times fast.))
Post by: Kairon on December 21, 2007, 01:44:30 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: UncleBob
Also, an interesting thing to note - as I mentioned earlier, Wii allocation is based on a retail's orders of various 1st party Wii/DS games and accessories. How many retail stores are overloaded with Wii Play and Super Mario Galaxy that they didn't bother to order Zack and Wiki (or insert any other 3rd party title that you've had trouble finding at retail here)?
This is simply counter-productive. But I guess I can see why this is handled this way.
Nintendo needs some way to decide where to send things, and this way is better than guessing out of the blue how many to send to each store. They've already got an internal tracking system for their own software, so I guess using that makes perfect sense. Though maybe this internal tracking system is incapable of tracking third party sales?
Maybe Nintendo should dispense with this and go on a pure unit basis for any games sold for the system, first or third party. (I wonder how they'd track this though) Or maybe they could go on a revenue sold model.
Either way, they should find some way to include third party games in the equation.
Post by: ShyGuy on December 21, 2007, 03:55:52 AM
Quote
Nintendo doesn't care about the sales of Zack and Wiki
That's just speculation. Nintendo has helped out third parties this generation.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on December 21, 2007, 04:03:50 AM
Post by: NWR_insanolord on December 21, 2007, 04:05:47 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: ShyGuyQuote
Nintendo doesn't care about the sales of Zack and Wiki
That's just speculation. Nintendo has helped out third parties this generation.
They have, and I can't figure out why. It's not a very good business decision; Nintendo makes more money with games they publish themselves, a first-party title, Wii Sports, is what's selling the console, and Nintendo proved with the latter halves of the N64 and Cube's lives that they can sustain a console all by themselves and still make a lot more profit than their competitors. I'm not saying their newfound appreciation of the third-parties is bad, just that it's not something that benefits them a whole lot.
Post by: Kairon on December 21, 2007, 04:18:03 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on December 21, 2007, 04:42:32 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Nintendo needs to help third parties because what Nintendo is doing isn't just about the money, it's about videogames, the perception of videogames, and the way that the industry approaches videogames. Nintendo is selling a philosophy on gaming, as much as they are selling systems. If they only end up convincing themselves that videogames should be accessible to everyone, that high-def isn't important , that for fun, that people other than 19-29 year old males play games, then they will hqave accomplished nothing.
You know, 3rd parties could do alot to help themselves if they actually released a few QUALITY 3rd party games. At the moment there is so much garbage that the few good games get buried. 3rd parties have no one to blame but themselves.
Post by: ShyGuy on December 21, 2007, 05:59:12 AM
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071220-exclusive-retail-chain-scalping-wii-allotment-on-ebay.html
Post by: UncleBob on December 21, 2007, 07:31:12 AM
Post by: UncleBob on December 21, 2007, 05:45:27 PM
Post by: ShyGuy on December 21, 2007, 07:14:38 PM
Post by: UncleBob on October 28, 2008, 02:49:04 AM
http://blackfriday.gottadeal.com/black-friday-583-SpecialEditionIceBlueorMarioRedNintendoDS.html
Gah - how old are these two titles?
It would have been better to include Brain Age 1&2 in the Brain Age Bundle though...
In honor of these new bundles, I'm going to bundle our next few Wii shipments with our remaining stock of GameCube titles.
